NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, at the request of some, this is the OOC thread where those nations involved in the Drapol 'experience' can chat freely OOC about what is going on and how everything works (or fails to).

Firstly a quick history:

1. Quintonnia (and friends) invade Drapol conquering the area around Hamhung.

2. Drapol, experiencing a food shortage, attacks the ROK and pushes deep into the country until stopped by Kilean, LRR and Hudecian troops.

Anything noteable I should add to that?

I'm thinking LRR was right in point out that making a wall along the border is impracticle, if not impossible. However, I would propose you do what I do, which is to fortify your cities and make Dra-pol, should he invade again, throw an inordinate amount of resources at taking the city. This allows you to do three things:

1) It bogs down blitzkrieg and human wave attacks.
2) It would allow your active military units to concentrate firepower in the field by having the fixed positions manned by reserves.
3) It makes the enemy concentrate an inordinate amount of resources on taking cities while your field units out-manuever and engage the aformentioned enemy units. Moble defenses are at their best when they have static anchor points to operate from.

Hmm... good thoughts but one problem with heavily fortified cities is that Drapol will use artillery to pound the cities into rubble like he did the first time.

I'm thinking that to avoid the massive human casualties that would be suffered we should fortify key positions and smaller towns. For example, in southwestern Korea there is a river that flows from the Yellow Sea to about Daejeon. Fortifying that river would force Drapol to move his forces around Daejeon. Crossing the river would turn out to be too much trouble and take too much time.

A key difference between the future war and the last one will be the fact that we already have troops on the ground ready to repulse him. Last time they dug under the static defences of the ROK and pretty much wiped out the south before we got any troops there.

Right now there are about 500 000 Hudecian troops in the south. That number could double in the forseeable future.

How many troops does LRR have in the south?

(OOC: Is Tokarev involved in this RP as Japan? I lost track of the other threads involving this issue and don't presently have enough time to track them down)

Er, you didn't happen to see my mentioning the 16" and 25" ETC guns, did you? Cause those will take down entire howitzer batteries with ease.

Yeah, until Dra-pol's hordes of ground-attack aircraft bomb them into oblivion.

And a well-dispersed howitzer or rocket artillery battery could probably handle it. If Dra-pol invested in some of those new dang chinese MLRSs with a 180km range, he could take out artillery quickfast.

I personally use ETC cannons as coast defense artillery, always kept well camoflauged and dispersed. I also have some inland ones at key locations, but if i were Dra-pol, I would just bomb the cannons and attack them with long-range rocket artillery, such as my towed version of the 110 SF 2 and modified Smerch, and you can't forget those handy land-attack missiles, of course I doubt that Dra-pol has any.

Hudecia, I have mabye 100,000 troops in Korea.

'lo.

If you do end up embarking upon this misguided attempt to beat the CPRD at its own game (and I might add that the proposals heard thus far would mean entering our own game with a really bad hand compared to that already held by the house), just make sure there's some mention of the massive logistics task when it begins, so the submarine force, artillery command, commando wings, and strategic air command have enough scissors-paper-stone playing time to decide who gets to ruin your day :)

Man, 180km, eh? That's just over a hundred miles. Gosh, we could probably almost hit Cheju-do with that. Almost... so I think we'll skip it :D

I'm not sure the new guy realises the Chuche-like self-sufficient power of Kurosite Progress, we should fill him in, later, on how many things need killing at once in order to stop a Drapoel Assault Division.

Right, back to Project Mago. I'll be under the big temporary roof at Namp'o, if you need me.

Tokarev will be Japan for our RPs.

We've got a lot of work ahead of us if we are going to beat Drapol even in a defensive fashion. First of all we need lots and lots and lots of troops. Big troops, small troops, airborne troops, mechanized troops, everything.

Next, we've got to be ready to take out or contain Drapol's navy, wherever it crawls out from underneath its rock.

We've also got to figure out a way to neutralize his numerical superiority in the air. Attacking his airbases will be difficult because most of them are underground. We likely can't outnumber his fighters even though we can most definately outgun them.

Once the previous two things are accomplished we need to figure out how to stop human waves. Although this is probably the easiest of the tasks because of our training and technical superiority it can be difficult.

It probably doesn't do my cause much good to point this out to Dra-pol's enemies, but while it's hard to argue against the technical superiority of coalition forces on the whole, it would be a mistake to consider the Drapoel infantryman poorly trained, or less committed to the fight than are your recruits. In a land where thirteen year old school girls spend six hundred yearly hours drilling with the Kuro Student Defence League, their sixty year old grandfather watches over the collective from a sniper's den or machinegun nest and attends weekly meetings of the United Workers' Militia in his area. Here, the millions of young men of the Warrior Class are each ready to take on an entire division if told to, and though they may do it with an AK-clone on their shoulder and parts of an old tire under their sandals, they'll do it like they've been trained day in day out for the last ten years by a system evolved to do nothing but fight in Korea and more experienced than anyone else on earth at doing just that.
Then there's the Red Bamboo, and it is debatable as to whether any of the opposing forces can have been trained as hard as these commandos, who will almost certainly best a regular soldier from any other army, man for man. All right, perhaps that's to be expected of special forces... then one remembers that there's estimates higher than three million for total Red Bamboo strength.

A few things:

1) All you need to stop human wave attacks is an area effect weapon, the most extreme example would be VX.

2) Taking out Citadel isn't as easy as LRR would suggest, it's battle tested and has stopped cold a massive missile attack, with all of the 40mm cannons around any aircraft on bombing runs would be subject to a massive turkey shoot, assuming SAMs and interceptors didn't get to them first.

3) Tokarev, I actually have a bomb to deal with his underground air bases, although when I made it it wasn't meant for that purpose. As no doubt someone will point out the problem that will immediately present itself is actually getting the bomber to the target so that said nicely-wrapped structure can be bombed into oblivion.

4) I'm willing to argue the breadth and quality of training. While I can't claim to have my troops so well trained for Korea specifically, I do have somewhat of the climate and terrain in my own nation to help make up for it. Not to mention the fact that my Army divisions get five billion USD per year for training and the like, my Marine divisions double that. I don't think the fact that they use every cent of it needs mentioning, to do otherwise would be wasteful.

Well, I'm not trying to make a contest out of this, I just like people to understand Dra-pol.
I wasn't saying that anyone else's forces were poorly trained, just dismissing any possible notion that, because the UPA is large, its units are just waiting to melt away like the Iraqi army in the 1st Gulf War. That's not to say that the bulk of it is any better equipped than the Iraqi army, but certainly immeasurably more indoctrinated to the cause, clear on what their objective is (reunification under the revolution and the expulsion of the pollution that are foreign armies and cultures on the peninsula), and intensively drilled. Of course, the typical Drapoel comrade makes a naturally good base upon which to build a soldier anyway, being already immersed in the party line and the culture of self sufficiency within a local and nationwide network of comradeship. Tends to breed acceptance of order and of orders without obliterating individual capability and smarts.

Anyway, I still think the main point is that we're almost certainly going to see any attempt to set up big-freaking-guns on our border (our human intel still being terribly good, and higher technologies slowly begining to make ground), and chances are that they won't have chance to become operational before being hit by half a million tonnes of high explosives a minute.

Anyway, as an aside, if you were to use VX against the Drapoel, polluting a large part of the ROK in the process, would you be doing it under the assumption that the Drapoel would just sit back and let it pass, like last time... when they only nuked everything in theatre and assassinated a few individuals abroad?
If there's one way to remind people that good and evil aren't so black and white as they thought, it may just be to call yourself saviour and then deploy area affect weapons on their over crowded country. It'd also lose you allies and win many for Dra-pol.
Aw man, why am I talking? You allies can do that for me, I'm sure, and I shouldn't be trying to make people look outside Korea, I need my unexpected ploys, later!

Penetrator weapons are something I looked into a bit, last time, too, and having realised that even experiemental US nuclear penetrators couldnt' touch anything but Shallow, Small, and Light class Drapoel tunnels and some HARTS (provided they hit the right part, which would be challenge enough) (certainly not without irradiating half of Asia), became a little less worried.


Bleh, I dunno why I'm half-addressing these issues now, I should just leave it for full coverage come any conflict, eh?

Alright. First of all, under no circumstances will any biological, chemical or nuclear weapons be deployed in Korea unless Drapol does so first. And even then, all such orders are subject to Hudecian authority.

I'm not going to have a repeat of the 1st war where ICBMs were launched, and a nuclear war resulted. That's just bad for RPing..

And to quell any ideas of a pre-emptive strike on our part (but I won't openly reject all ideas of it), attacking Drapol would be suicide. Our only hope for success and retaking the peninsula would be when Drapol attacks we'll repulse his attack and counter thrust up into him.

Hudecian military commanders do not think it is a matter of 'if' Drapol attacks, but 'when'. And I think that Hudecian military commanders have a better idea than any other nation as to what Drapol domination of the peninsula means.

Note I said that VX would be the most extreme example of an area effect weapon, a more practicle example would be a thermite or cluster bomb.

As for the penetrator, it's a new weapon. Here's the article from Jane's: http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/jdw040719_1_n.shtml

And Hudecia, I'm looking for an excuse to start a buildup in South Korea, so if you can hand me one I'll be very happy.

[Tag. And cluster weapons are, I think, rarely as effective in practical application as they're trumped-up to be. Not that I'd want to gamble on being in their so called area of effect or anything.]

I think it depends on the kind of cluster bomb, really. If it's of the anti-tank variety, I can't imagine it doing much against most of the "modern" NS tanks (those being the ones with large ETC cannons and extremely effective armour compared to Chobham.) However, anti-personel cluster bombs will take almost everybody in a 100-yard radius out, and in a very messy manner.

Don't say that, Beth! That's how I'm expecting to stop Bisonic armored waves should he ever come to see it fit to invade.

But yeah, the average Dra-pol soldier has an advantage in dedication if nothing else. Sure, they probably can't handle much in the way of technology, but there's a hell of a lot of them, and a little Type 56 or PPSH clone can kill you just as dead as a G-36 or M-16. The LRRA actually uses a few different types of assault rifles, mostly liscence-built versions of the L1A1 FN-FAL and Finnish Rk-95 rifles.

As for defeating a citadel, well, how long would it take to build one? Like I said, I have some pretty nifty fortifications in my country (like ETC cannons disguised as rock formations and buried quad 16" guns), but something as extensive as a citadel would be very expensive and take quite a while to build, from my understanding, and I'm not convinced of how much more effective it would be than a good army corps. Perhaps something that was built into the earth more would be better. In LRR, there are low-tech bunkers and trench lines, but the national defense relies on highly mobile infantry divisions which can quickly get to where they are needed and use the terrain as fortification, without relying on permanent positions. Strangely enough, the airforce operates on similar principles. But in LRR, there are so many rivers and lakes that the country is practically an archepelago.

Perhaps investment into the Metal Storm area denial system would be a better alternative for the ROK. It is mobile, and can be deployed to stop human wave attacks. The LRRA has tried to copy it with recycled RBU-14 launchers.

But one of the disadvantages faced by the LRRA was the fact that it was an anti-tank army. Only the paratroopers were really meant to deal infantry v.s. infantry.

But yeah, as much as it might surprise us, the CPRD has most armies beat on the training and dedication front. While, for example, a CPRD soldier might not have the combined arms and engineering training that the average LRRA infantryman gets, they definately make up for it in their basic low-technology training. I mean, the LRRA couldn't function with bolt-action rifles, unreliable armored vehicles, and poor artillery and anti-tank weaponry. The UPA seems to roll around in it.

A Citadel wall is built into the earth, that's how it can take hits from tacnukes and survive, that is besides the massive amount of reinforced concrete. Construction on a 100 meter section of wall would take about a month, assuming that it had a weapon assigned to it. If not, a quarter of that. Of course, assuming one had the resources several can be built at the same time.

[Where's the IC thread?]

Here (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=353878) you go.

[Thanks.]

Yeah, I think that in reality, with changing weather and especially on difficult terrain, and given defending fire and movement of targets, it's not a matter of deploying cluster munitions and assuming everything's dead... in Dra-pol is probable that your first six attempts got shot down by any one of [mind boggling number of MANPADs, probably sufficient to arm every member of opposing forces] and the next few were forced to go higher and found that their muntions scattered uneavenly over a huge area, throughout most of which the targetted soldiers hid on the rear face of the hill... and then the the SAM/AAA battery back there with them shot-down the plane on its way past/back.
That's not to say that this sort of thing can't be effective, as superior technology in airpower eventually won the coalition relative superiority in large parts of the extreme south, especially on the west, last time, and ended up with one Assault Division lost entirely and another wrecked trying to get down the coastal roads, as I remember the last conflict.

Anyway, the Drapoel soldiers are typically skilled in some sort of engineering... or perhaps it would be better to call them semi-skilled. We've hundreds of bridging units, for example, but in the UPA these don't tend to be dedicated engineering units... they're fighting soldiers who happen to have replaced ten of their battle tanks with APCs and trucks hauling pre-fab bridges... most Drapoel are able to maintain kit other than their own, though it tends to be down to chance and sheer weight of numbers that anyone can find one of the right guys when he's needed. They can all dig, the UPA's an army of little moles, one might say.
Still, widespread ability to maintain or even operate modern vehicles and what not is still a long way off.

I'm not really adding anything by saying all that, am I? Pff.

The standard service rifle in the UPA, by the way, is the Type-D-86 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/Chivtv/NS1/type86s.jpg) in a powerful 6.5mm round, with which it is believed that the average Drapoel soldier can out-range many of his likely opponents. The Drapoel Warrior Class (have I explained Drapoel classes, yet?) begins to be identified by 11 to 13 years of age, and is made up of young men and women that probably grew up hunting with a rifle, and have spent all of their teenage years training to shoot (amongst other educational things, of course) at long ranges, against moving targets, with an emphasis on conservation of ammunition... because Dra-pol simply can't afford to having its soldiers blazing away on full auto. As such, far from charging and spraying bullets randomly, opponents will continue to find that the Drapoel, often even in human wave advances, will appear to stalk the enemy positions en masse, giving single shot and controlled bursts of fire at chosen targets rather than just generally towards the position or at the ranks.

I think Drapoel disadvantages come for individual units, especially those in the most forward regular units (as forward RB units will be fairly well equipped). As found last time, those that became seperated from the main front found it hard to call in accurate support quickly, even while it was still available. A foreign squad might whip out the GPS and laptop and what not and call in some cruise missiles (although it may not stop the Drapoel), where as their UPA equivalent might have to whip out the... bayonets and maybe a flaregun and hope for the best.

Hey, what kind of range does the Type-D-86 have? The L1A1 has an 800m range, and the Galil has a 600m range, probably a little more with rifle grenades.

But yeah, there isn't too much high-tech communications equipment in the LRRA either. GPS si, laptops non. You figure the average LRRA infantryman's got maps, a compass, a flare launcher, communications equipment 40-50km on the squad, 50-100km on the platoon level, plus a fair amount of UAVs and scout/ATGM helicopters.

The LRRA doesn't like to rely on bridging, so most vehicles, including trucks, are amphibious. There's also usually a few inflatable rafts deployed per platoon, because in LRR there are tons of rivers and bogs and junk, and in the winter they can be used as sleds. That's important because in LRR there's snow on the ground from the start of October until mid May.

Also, would you guys consider 15km an acceptable range for a Hellfire variant?

I know there's a 12 kilometer version being considered, but the current missiles have a range of 8 kilometers. I really don't see a problem with it, but that is a rather big jump for such a small missile.

I know there's a 12 kilometer version being considered, but the current missiles have a range of 8 kilometers. I really don't see a problem with it, but that is a rather big jump for such a small missile.

12km is good then. I dunno where I got it, but I thought there was a Hellfire II that was getting a 15km range. But hey, it still gives my APCs a longer striking range than Sino's dual-cannon MBT, although I have to admit my light ATGM teams are only a few hundred meters longer-armed than the dual-barreled thing with a maximum missile range of just over 8.6km with the Spike-ER II (yes, even more ER).

Of course, then there's the R-110SF2 with a 15km range, the Uragan with a 40km range, and the Super Smerch (essentially A WS-1B on a Smerch chassis) with a 180km range, and we can't forget the Polyphem and Nimrod land-attack missiles with a 60 and 25km range respectively, and the P-750 cruise missile with a 3000km range.

Wow.. I missed a lot.

Ok... SS, I would suggest you make a 'humanitarian' visit to the south and decide to permanently stations a group of 'humanitarians' if you want.

This would act like the 'tripwire' force that is RL in Korea today.

Scandanavian could take over from the LRRA units that withdrew...

Just letting everyone else know I am here, and am in charge of South Korea.

I don't think so hombre, Hudecia has been roleplaying control of the ROK longer than you're been around.

EDIT: Hudecia, if you don't mind I'd like to deploy an honest-to-God field army, frankly I want my troops to actually have a decent chance to stop Dra-pol's army instead of being a bump in the road.

SS, South Koryo is in charge of the south.

I want to try to introduce a non-allied controled government in the south. Better for the RP and better for me if I get busy.

To be honest, I do have 1/2 million troops in the south, so I have free reign to an extend, and I want South Koryo to set limits as to where my troops can go and what they can do.

I have no problem with you deploying an army there, but do it quietly and slowly to not scare the Drapol government. It is a little paranoid at times. Also, South Koryo, do you have any objection?

My appologies, I thought for a second he was some newb walking in and declaring control of the ROK just because he had the flag and a similar-sounding name.

No, no problem, the thread about geography around Drapol was meant to sort this all out. Oh.. by the way, what country would you be representing SS? I'm assuming the Scandinavian region right?

No, I'm my own country, really. I really have too many different cultures to represent one region, much less the Nords (although I'd love to, seeing as I'm a distant cousin of the Danish royal family.)

So, will you take over from the withdrawing LRRA divisions I gather?


http://www.bulba.eu.org/mil/free/challanger/challanger2(10).jpg

A line of MBT-6s halted by the side of the road.

http://www.bulba.eu.org/mil/free/leopard/leopard2a5(6).jpg

A line of MBT-5Cs driving down a road during excersizes. The MBT-5 series MBT forms the bulk of the LRRA tank force, which numbers about 4,500 vehicles plus 2,000 tank destroyers.

That'll be good if SS can take over for you.

Yeah, I can take over. In fact, I can probably do a lot more than that.

Hm, more, eh? That will spark something in The Igovian Soviet Commonwealth. So...is SS in the North Pacific, then?

Damn it, if my brother's nation was still going it'd be the perfect place to position an air force base in response. It doesn't seem right that the anti-communists can be as aggressive as they like without having to worry about reaction. I suppose BG shall just have to put its resources into boosting Drapoel force projection capacity if this tide continues to wash against Igovian public sympathies.

As aggressive as we like?!

Right... Drapol stations millions of troops on the border and fortifies it and we can't respond? Hmm... double standard ..

LOL... this is an OOC thread so nothing we say here can be used against us or in support of anyone.

I have nothing against Communists, several of my closest allies are Communist. I do have a problem with regimes that impose an iron fist upon thier people.

EDIT: Actually, that's inaccurate, I have a problem with despotic regimes who don't have the common courtesy to treat their people right.

But you don't know anything about what's going on in Dra-pol. The state media isn't telling you anything bad, and you have no human intelligence on the ground in Dra-pol. As the Drapoel see it, their culture and their ancient homeland is under attack simply because the outside -primarily western- world doesn't understand their culture and doesn't think they'd like it. As Beth Gellert sees it, it is nobody else's beeswax, and Korea is a land united for centuries upon end and split only for a matter of decades by outside powers with no right to be there in the first place. Popular opinion in BG holds that the Japanese Empire should never have attacked, and when it collapsed, the UN certainly shouldn't have split the nation simply because the west didn't agree with the revolution under way. It is seen by BG that the outside is crippling the land's natural political evolution, and there's nothing more sure than that to get the Igovians up in arms.

And no, of course nobody can use things that happen in the OOC thread against anybody, but for the deployments to happen, they have to...happen. We'll see them begining.

I'm trying to insert myself into the IC thread when I get the chance. Probably when SS takes losses I will declare war on Dra-Pol, or something of the sort.

I don't have to have people in Dra-pol to know what's going on there. Of course, I'm assuming that like the IRL North Korea people occassionally make it out of the country alive and tell horror stories.

EDIT: LRR, how many divisions do you have in South Korea right now?

Drapol, the survivors of the war would definately tell of some horrors of what happened under Drapol control.

Hmm... actually, Tokarev I'll get you involved diplomatically through those channel islands. We could request that you fortify the islands and block any Drapol subs or vessels from going by them.

Yeah, I can take over. In fact, I can probably do a lot more than that.

If you're going to put in more divisions than we take out, the LRRA might as well not pull out at all. We're not trying to start a huge arms race here.

The idea is to maintain the military status-quo until Dra-pol society is sufficently open to allow the peninsula to be re-united by vote.

And Scandanavian, you would be replacing four out of five LRRA armored divisions, of about 4,000 combat infantrymen and another 10,000 drivers/support personnel each. The LRRN will maintain its naval presence, and has adopted the policy of turning back any special forces from either side.

And guys, it is not a good idea in the long run to isolate Dra-pol. He's gotta have contact with the outside world or else he will remain the isolated tinpot stalinist state he is.

And Dra-pol shifting a million men for a single division isn't going to make the Imperium very enthusiastic about maintaining the "status quo". From a strictly military standpoint the better strategy would be to send an entire field army and make Dra-pol forward deploy a great percentage of its army to the border, which would drain his coffers quite quickly. Yeah, that might promt him to attack, but how's he going to supply logistics to his army and feed his people?

Which do you think has priority? During the war for reunification, Dra-pol got like a few million men over the border really fast, and put a few million more in the breech within a very short time. The only reason why they were stopped was because of inferior technology at first, then because of the nuclear exchange that made things simply too dangerous. If Dra-pol had attacked through the shaken defenders of the line and into the ravaged rear areas, he probably could have captured the peninsula. When the LRRA drove up through the Dra-pol lines to retake much of the land close to Andong (the LRRA just doesn't do urban combat) with about five divisions, they were on the brink of collapse under the weight of several million CPRD troops.

My point-

If you fight Dra-pol, you loose. This time 'round, anyhow. So our priority should be to not fight Dra-pol.

Good point LRR. The reason for my massive deployment is so that we don't get caught with our pants down WHEN he attacks. I do not view the chance of Drapol attacking us as an 'if', he will do it.

However, were there a significant change in the Drapol mentality/culture, that would change the situation drastically.

Any suggestions on how to do that?

SS, Drapol would just let his people starve and blame it on us.

OOC: Hudecia, sounds good to me. And this time I WON'T screw it up by accelerating the time frame ... ;)

Yeah, the last Korean war we did went really really slow. Like almost RL time frames. Lol... that was for logistical reasons as well as RP reasons. Drapol likes to RP individual events.

Okay, I'll cooperate and only send four divisions... for now. However, if he keeps sending troops I'm deploying an entire field army, which means another Corp of armoured divisions and a Corp of artillery divisions.

Oh, and if anyone would like to tell me where the best port to offload would be I'll RP the 331st arriving. Oh, and Hudecia would you mind telling me what the general reaction to the 331st's arrival would be?

Ahem. While you chaps sort these cute little divisions and field armies from one another: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=355706

Bang, you're dead ;)

Ugh-oh

Long posts by Dra-pol, I bet that means trouble.

Ok... just FYI Drapol I fortified the islands to the east and the west of the peninsula (check my thread earlier). Any attempts to flank us with amphibious landings will be flanked themselves. But I think you just meant those to divert our attention and not actually succeed.

We need to separate the threads into the different theatres if we actually fight.

I'm going to consult my allies before making a final decision.

The best port of entry would be Pusan. It would be the safest.

Man... I hate it when I'm right. I feel like the Dutch boy trying to plug holes while the whole dam collapses around me. WHY DOESN'T ANYBODY LISTEN TO ME?!?! ... *sigh*

Well, yes and no. Perhaps succeed is a relative term and looked upon in a different light depending on which side of Dra-pol's borders you grew-up.

In total, 2,550 Cholima Class hovercraft are involved on both coasts, streaming in and unloading upshore where they make it at all, leaving commandos inserted behind the enemy and landing ships coming from in front. For some of the north-most landings artillery and air support is disrupting things, too.

1,820 Three Day Class assault support boats (total figure available to both fleets combined) are able to shower no small number of rockets on to defended positions from ten miles away if needs be- I mean, how many people are actually going to be defending the islands? There's probably more rockets landing than defenders standing, and more hovercraft and boats racing through than missiles to fire at them as they swarm through. Well, that's the basic hope from our point of view, anyway.

Like you say, the main point is to distract, disrupt, and generally to confuse and overwhelm the senses and intelligence forces of the enemies. Waking up to an artillery barrage that means every square inch of soil will have a hole in it within a matter of minutes while boats try to land men on one side, planes on the other, and soldiers come head on, and counter-battery radar is overwhelemed.

I'll use the OOC thread to give very quick stats on the boats, since they're mostly native vessels little seen before. Can't hurt to post them.

Cholima Class Hovercraft Assault Vehicle
Able to travel at sea and inshore
Speed: 50knots
Cargo: 40 infantrymen
Strength: 1,200 East, 1,350 Yellow
Task: Race inshore and deploy marines to assault coastal positions from rear.

Bap Class Miniature Submarine
A small D/E submarine produced in two versions, one with torpedoes and one with mines
Length: 30.4m
Speed: 9knots submerged, 8knots surfaced
Mines: 12
Torpedoes: 4x 485mm
Crew: 15 plus 6
Strength: 350 East, 200 Yellow
Task: Insertion of commandos and agents all around the south. Stalking of hostile vessels and attack with torpedoes. Laying of mines outside enemy harbours during the early morning of the attack. Laying of mines at sea between amphibious operations and any enemy fleets off shore.
Note: The Yellow Sea is already extensively mined north of the border.

Mogi Class missile craft
Light missile boats protecting Drapoel shores
Length: 25m
Speed: 40knots
Missiles: 2xDSJ-1 single-tube SSM
Guns: 14.5mm twin-barrel dual-purpose
Strength: 110 East, 80 Yellow
Task: Out in small numbers initially to protect operations against enemy ships already at sea or attempting to leave port. Later likely to come out in force to assault any carrier task forces.

Tiburon Class patrol craft
Length: 38.2m
Speed: 26knots
Guns: 1x75mm, 1x47mm twin barrel, 2x14.5mm twin-barrel
Rockets: 240mm MLRS mounted aft
Other weapons: 2x485mm anti-submarine/ship torpedoes
Crew: around 40+
Strength: 42 East, 28 Yellow
Task: Usually on patrol against infiltration, now employed in giving fire-support with rockets and cannon.

Kae Class torpedo boats
Length: 19m
Speed: 49knots
Torpedoes: 2x485mm tubes above water
Guns:2x14.5mm
Strength: 750 East, 600 Yellow
Task: Attack enemy vessels at anchor in the engagement area, attempt to penetrate enemy harbours and spread torpedoes.

Choson Class LCP
Length: 25.7m
Speed: 40knots
Guns: 2x14.5mm twin-barrel dual-purpose
Crew: 12
Cargo: 32 marines
Strength: 850 East, 600 Yellow
Task: Immediately follow Cholima hovercraft in dropping troops directly on to beach; troops to proceed inland and cause disruption in enemy's rear ASAP.

Hungnam Class LCU
Length: 47m
Speed: 12knots
Guns: 2x30mm
Missiles: 2xQW-2 SAM
Crew: 31
Cargo: 3 tanks/AVs
Strength: 300 East, 200 Yellow
Task: Insert armour to support assault; armour to move inland if possible. Provide additional point air defence to assault forces.
Note: Drapoel light tanks and APCs are amphbious and may arrive under their own power after medium tanks unloaded by LCUs.

Inch’on Class LCU
Length: 33.9m
Speed: 10knots
Guns: 2x14.5mm dual-mounts
Crew: 14
Cargo: 2 tanks/AVs or 150 troops
Strength: 200 East, 100 Yellow
Task: Insert armour and troops to press inland if possible.

Three Day Class Assault-Support Boats
Length: 25m
Speed: 40knots
Crew: 23
Guns: 2x14.5mm dual-mounts
Rockets: 32x122mm tube MLRS
Strength: 1,100 East, 720 Yellow
Task: Provide fire support to marine landings, operating in rolling duty aided by high speeds to maintain constant fire.

Houjian Class Missile Attack Boat
-Drapoel version of the Penglai vessel
Specifications
Displacement: (full load) 520 tons.
Dimensions: Length 65.4 m; Beam 8.4 m, Draft 2.38 m.
Propulsion: 3 SEMT-Pielstick diesels, 15,840 hp; 3 shafts.
Speed: 33.5 knots.
Range: 3,200 km @ 18 KT
Crew: 75
Fire Control: Type 88C SSM fire-control and targeting radar
EW/ECM: intercept.
C2I: Penglai combat data system.
Missiles: Qian Wei one 3-cell and DSJ-1 one 2-cell launcher
Guns: One 75mm main gun, Two dual-30 mm automatic AAA
Programme.
The Houjian Class is the primary missile attack boat, first designed and deployed by the PRC as the Type 520T. The gull and bridge are sealed with NBC-protection system. The data from sensors are processed by an automatic computerised command and control system.

Kurosian I Class light patrol frigate-
Al Khali Omar Class vessels built for Dra-pol
1,400 ton full load displacement, 300x34x10ft dimension.
2 shafts; 2 cruise diesels, 3,800bhp, 18 knots; boost gas turbines, 42,000shp, 39 knots.
Al Khali air-search radar, sonar, and fire control
1x100mm gun, 6x Qian Wei anti ship missile (two 3-cell launchers), 1x ASW mortar, DRAR-19 SAM, 4x30mm cannon, 3x14.5mm machinegun
128 officers and men.

Bear in mind- I'm not giving you technical data or force strength IC, and most of the warships are housed under shelters or more often in pens dug into the cliff or erected on the shore.

We need to separate the threads into the different theatres if we actually fight.

I'm going to consult my allies before making a final decision.

The best port of entry would be Pusan. It would be the safest.

Man... I hate it when I'm right. I feel like the Dutch boy trying to plug holes while the whole dam collapses around me. WHY DOESN'T ANYBODY LISTEN TO ME?!?! ... *sigh*

Hehe. For a while I was actually going to leave it until the next IC year. We've not actually finished several of our more ambitious invasion projects, as a result. The others were right, more or less, but Hotan is a fickle man, and the Drapoel revolutionaries in high spirits and feeling edgy, heh. We didn't feel comfortable with the increased level of foreign interest of late, and decided that the ratio of our superiority was only going to decrease in time, even if we finished our more ambitious projects.
I dunno. You been crying wolf anywhere, lately?

/me snorts

Not an incredibly smart move, all things considered. Of course, you're about to see why.

Who're you snorting at? What move?

Dra-pol, 2nd healthiest nation in Asia, 400th in the world. No food is good food!

Just while I'm here (can't stay), the Hudecian aircraft forming up... where are those coming from? Most significant air bases, certainly on the mainland, are within minutes of the Drapoel aircraft taking off in force from the first minute of the action, with several hundred suicide attacks from S-5s in supersonic shallow dives, while S-7 modified Fishbed surely outnumber anything taking off by dozens to one (it'd be physically impossible to have more than a few take-off in addition to any on standard patrol, before the first waves began to fall upon the runways with the suicidal intent of rendering them even temporarily inoperable even at a cost of 100% casualties).

(And if anyone's long-range bombers are interested, our interceptors are not yet committed, thanks to Hotan's own Standard Fighter Defence Strategy)

/me just smiles cryptically and continues to watch clock

Another five hours, I think.

Sorry to advertise in the Korean thread, but this is somewhat related (this wouldn't be taking place if Dra-pol wasn't on the move):

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=356200

Marimaia moving in on Myanmar

Here I am posting the following OOC stuff, copied and pasted from the IC thead:

These are the fleets immediately in Nagasaki and Kitakyushu. They will be fully deployed in the next couple of days. As a side note, no formal declaration of war has been levelled at Dra-Pol. I am merely posting this for documentation, so you know what I will have in the next couple of days. I stress that these are not yet fully deployed. I also think you should read this: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=6917891#post6917891 If you care not to recognize that thread for whatever reason, just inform me and I won't bring it up again. [/i]

First Fleet Base - Nagasaki; CinC - Admiral Isamu Yakuta

2 Yamato-class Battleships
8 Kongo-class Battleships
4 Takao-class Heavy Cruisers
2 Kuma-class Light Cruisers
9 Akizuki-class Destroyers
9 Shimakaze-class Destroyers
9 Fubuki-class Destroyers
15 Auxilaries

Third Fleet Base - Kitakyushu; CinC - Vice Admiral Ibo Takahasi

2 Takao-class Heavy Cruisers
1 Kuma-class Light Cruiser
4 Akizuki-class Destroyers
8 Shimakaze-class Destroyers
6 Minelayer Destroyers
12 Hatsushima-class Minesweepers
6 Gunboats
12 Subchaser Destroyers
14 Auxilaries

Fourth Fleet Base - Kitakyushu; CinC - Vice Admiral Sozen Hideaki

5 Takao-class Heavy Cruisers
2 Kuma-class Light Cruisers
4 Akizuki-class Destroyers
2 Shimakaze-class Destroyers
2 Fubuki-class Destroyers
13 Sen Toku-class Submarines
27 Gunboats
3 Minelayer Destroyers
5 Hatsushima-class Minesweepers
10 Subchaser Destroyers
16 Auxilaries
13 Observation seaplanes
18 Nakajima Type 97 torpedo bombers
8 Mitsubishi Type 0 carrier fighters

Tenth Fleet Base - Kitakyushu; CinC - Vice Admiral Jiro Sogawa

5 Takao-class Heavy Cruisers
2 Kuma-class Light Cruisers
4 Akizuki-class Destroyers
2 Shimakaze-class Destroyers
2 Fubuki-class Destroyers
13 Sen Toku-class Submarines
27 Gunboats
3 Minelayer Destroyers
5 Hatsushima-class Minesweepers
10 Subchaser Destroyers
16 Auxilaries
13 Observation seaplanes
18 Nakajima Type 97 torpedo bombers
8 Mitsubishi Type 0 carrier fighters

Eleventh Fleet Base - Nagasaki; CinC - Admiral Hatsuzo Taniguchi

14 Takao-class Heavy Cruisers
2 Kuma-class Light Cruisers
8 Shimakaze-class Destroyers
12 Fubuki-class Destroyers
8 Akizuki-class Destroyers
15 Auxilaries


Please don't accuse me of numberwanking, because it doensn't make any sense in context. I am just documenting what I have, and have not deployed, and as Scandavian States will tell you I am obsessive about my navy (I have down to the dollar documentation of my navy budget).

Well.. with regards to listing all our troops... I really don't think we should. A general idea of how many and what ships are nice, but I don't think we should document it exactly. If anyone else disagrees then that's ok too.

Drapol... the airstrips from which these fighters are launching are on the island. Also, some are coming from carriers. The ones on the peninsula are sufficiently defended and deep enough in allied territory that we could launch sufficient forces to defend them in time.

Remember, my forces have been expecting this for some time, we have not been caught 'with our pants down' so to speak.

OOC: Sorry, I'm just rather obsessive.

We all get a little obsessive sometimes... you with ships... Drapol with oppresing the Korean people... LOL.. just kidding.

Well, it looks as though things have come to blows at long last, and, quite frankly...I'm off!

*Runs into the woods towards the border*

Oh, I know your forces are all going to be generally at the ready, it's just that from the time our aircraft pop up on radar or visual over the hills and the alarms start to sound at the airbases, to the time they're on top of said airbases can be at most a couple of minutes even in the extreme south, given how little of Korea remains out of Drapoel control. I can't see how its possible for more than a handful of aircraft to scramble before someone's flying his explosive-laden plane into the runway under a hail of cannon fire and rocketry showering everything.
Most of Dra-pol's airstrips are small affairs with only a few planes each, and usually several small, crappy airstrips, so we can put several small crappy planes up from each of many bases, getting a big is crappy and disorganised wing up in the modern airbases can get a couple of big modern planes out to meet them, presumably. That means we'll get a bucket-load shot down, but of the hundreds being sent... that's of little tactical effect.
As yet I'm struggling to imagine an outcome that sees southern airstrips on the mainland surviving without a significant reduction in capacity for more than a matter of minutes.

If the defence of the bases on the mainland depends heavily on interception of our first waves by island or carrier based aircraft, it's worth remembering that ...it'll be too late in many cases, as some mainland bases are going to be closer to Drapoel aircraft already taking off than to island and carrier runways from which you could intercept us.. and there's a limit to how quickly carriers can launch fighters. You can launch a couple right away and send them in, but they're just going to get off a couple of radar guided AAMs and then be mauled by immeasurable numbers... if you wait to form up a big wing to come in and smash our inferior fighters, your mainland bases are left to die anyway. No? Maybe I'm missing something, but this just seems to make sense to me.

Okay, I've been trying to break the habit of number posting in an IC thread, so I'll do it here. There were 72 bombers and each bomber launched 85 missiles, each missile contained 1,536 submunitions that are capable of messing up tanks (you did mention that your tanks only had rolled steel armour) and people alike. In short, your In'chon Assault Division has 9,400,320 submunitions raining down on it, that is assuming none were shot down, which is entirely up to you.

OOHHHHHH .. I was talking about the fighters above the island fortress that was firing at your ships.. I thought you had asked me where those came from.

In this case, I agree almost completely about the airbases on the peninsula, most if not all will be out of operation for some time. However, we will have launched a sizeable (not inconsequential) amount of fighters from the airbases before they are taken out. And even then, fighters based on islands like Ulleung, Jeju and such can take over some of the responsibilities of defence (I said 'some' not 'all' or 'most')

I haven't RPed much of the defence of the peninsula, mostly I was focusing on the amphibious landing on the east coast near Yeongdeok. The 'big wing' was forming off the coast there in an attempt to wipe out the amphibious landing fleet there once and for all.

If we are going to fight, we need to separate the threads to make these things clear.

Ohh.
Okay, I see. Yeah, Cheju Do is more or less going to be untouched at this time- Project Mago (I think Marimaia was the only one to understand what that was the significance of that name) is incomplete, sadly.

SS, I may in my lengthy post appear to have slightly understated the value of the submunition attacks, but that was largely due to the sheer length of time I'd been typing for and the unclear nature of intel at this time. It will later be revealed that the assault division mentioned as having been all but crippled is in fact completely out of action, so long as I remember. It is in the grand scheme of things still a big nothing and quite the waste of high technologies on your part, but never mind, eh :)

Well, it was the only really clear target I had at the time and since I'm going to let my battleships take care of the HARTs (cheaper and the 22" Scramjets have more hitting power anyway) there wasn't any point in using missiles to take them down.

Oh, and no we don't have any idea of what we're up against because you haven't really spelled it out. Personally I'd like to know exactly what forces you have attacking where, where your major logistics centers are, and things of that nature. I can't stay blind forever and when I do find out I think you're going to find that this victory, assuming we can't pound you into submission, isn't going to be as clean and simple as you'd like it to be.

Basically the forces I am mobilising are 350 long-range interceptors, the IDF-4 and a couple of Arsenal Ships + escorts. There's no political will to actually send enough forces to win, just enough to look like Taiwan cares about the fate of the S.Koreans and to win votes.

Ok.. I have a problem with Drapol's claims of massive bombardment.. not that he can'thave those forces but a logistical problem that would incur.

If you really pound a territory withthe amount of artillery that Drapol says he did, then what happens?

The ground is totalled, infrastructure is destroyed. Thus, making movement of infantry through the destroyed territory difficult, and forget about moving heavy weapons. It'd end up being a Paschendale all over again. (WWI battle where tanks, men, artillery literally sank into the earth and disappeared)

Next point, Drapol, your troops (however brave) are limited by human abilities. They cannot race across huge amounts of territory in a few hours. Even under the best circumstances, it would take probably a day for forces to reach the south (EDIT: I mean Pusan, it'd take you a day to reach Pusan if you just drove nonstop from the border to Pusan).

Now add in the fact that you destroyed vital infrastructure with your reckless bombardment, that we are putting up fierce resistance and that over 1 million men are opposing you... well.. you do the math. It's going to take a while.

Also, you made a quip about shooting someone ten times with artillery shells. I say go ahead, if you can find a '70s era Soviet artillery gun I'll stand at its maximum range while you fire off ten shell, I can almost guarantee you that you that gun wouldn't do more than crater the earth, at most I might recieve shrapnel wounds from a close call.

Now, I also want to address the technological disadvantage you hold. Speaking for myself, I'm 2020 tech and I'm assuming that with a few exceptions you are ~1970s tech. Since armour has the least variables involved it's the example I'm going to use, putting your tanks against mine is like putting an old Soviet T-34 against an Abrams, the conclusion is foregone. Same goes for air power, you can close as fast as you like with my fighters, I can guarantee you that they're either going to blow your air force out of the sky or simply outclimb them and run away.

In short, this fight isn't over, in fact it hasn't even begun.

EDIT: You know what else, I fail to see how fighting in Korea is different from fighting anywhere else. The ground is the same, the air is the same, the sea is the same. I fail to see any advantage you might hold in Korea. I think you're military will get equally plastered everywhere.

The only problem SS is that whereas we can send 1000 of our most advanced tanks into combat, Drapol can send about 50 000 (those are the odds more or less, 50:1). So even if we kill them at a rate of 25:1, we still end up losing.

The biggest problem facing the defenders is time. We need it, but its the one thing that is still lacking. We need time to get reinforcements, time to properly recover and time to reorganize our defence.

The biggest advantage is Drapol's arrogance. Drapol sees victory as a foregone conclusion, which isn't true should we hold out long enough. History has proven that arrogance can be the Achille's Heel of any army, regardless of how big they are and how small their enemy is. So lets take advantage of that somehow.

(Historical examples = Spartans, Troy, Chrysler's farm, Waterloo, Alamo, etc..)

EDIT:

I'm tempted to take some of your criticism in the IC thread literally (accusing me of acting unrealistically), but then again *shrugs* everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Your landing craft landed in craters if you actually bombarded the coast that badly. You also destroyed your only road down to Pohang (not a problem to me since I wanted it done anyway), and as I've stated repeatedly before, Pohang is my command center, don't you think I defend it well?

And as for the problem of Drapol fighters crowding the skies over the south... yeah.. right... makes it all the more easy for our anti-air units to waste you. Of course our landbased AA units would suffer casualties but I guarantee that your air force would be crippled by the time its all said and done. Regardless of how many you have.

You haven't mentioned the fact that I have occupied the Korean Archipelago and Ulleung do and am using it them as staging areas for aircraft. Even though I have repeated this fact many many times.

You are still acting like we weren't prepared for this, I dunno, maybe the cheap vodka has finally gone to your head Drapol, but perhaps you should do some introspection before you accuse others of not being sensible.

His weakness here is that his tank guns are mediocre and I don't think his ATGMs are much better. Once my fleets arrive on station and all of my aircraft are in Japan (give it a RL day), I can start pounding the living crap out of his logistics (especially fuel and ammo) and fixed artillery. Once that's done, I think we can quite easily rape his airforce and then after that the rest of his army becomes mince meat.

Dra-pol, I've fought many wars against nations like yours that use mass human wave attacks and my military is geared to stonewall such attacks. Right now you're making every mistake they have and once you start the offensive for real you're going to understand why that is.

OOC: Okay, just an update on my forces.

My armies are still in limbo, unable to organize efficiently and are running around piecmiel. My air force is well organized for defense, but if it attacked it would probably be destroyed.

My navy is organized, but still not in a position to fight, being virtually out of fuel and ammunition.

I say that in the next two days, my navy will be completely organized and ready for a fight, and in the next week my army will be ready.

As a side note, I have begun to cut off the Korea Strait with mines, and it is already shadowed by my big guns on Tsushima and my fleet.

Well, the way I see it is that Dra-pol's gonna run until he runs dry. Just sort of go. Logistics shmogistics. Of course, what are all those tens of millions of horrible trucks for?

The LRRA operates probably a little bit more than 1.5 million good logistics vehicles, that's including PTS-Ms, TGB-20ALs, MLV-2s, Bv-206Ts, and Bv-206TRs.

I actually use quite a few 'carriers,' which hearken back to the old Bren carrier. I use them to carry ATGMs, mortars, infantry, SAMs, recoil-less rifles, MGs, etc. etc. Sort of the APCs' screen. They're based on the Wiesel but not quite.

And what's more, I think the best option, if we want to be foreward-thinking, is to simply let Dra-pol have Korea. It would be hard for our old buddy Hotan to justify his people starving when the enemy just packed up and said 'meh.

I think we should try it. Its our best bet for the future, and we can always ship in food aid etc, and open Dra-pol up.

An update on my forces:

My ships are attacking the beachheads on the east coast with 200km missiles, and patrol boats are making harassing attacks on landing troops.

The 2nd armored, along with the ROKA units which it has absorbed, is conducting a fighting retreat towards Pusan, the 3rd angle of the P-D-U triangle, where they have prepared defensive positions in the hills and can hope to hold off a sizeable assault with gunboat and paratrooper support.

In the air, MiG-21-2000s out of Jeju-do are engaging Dra-pol fighters over the south, as are JA-37 Super Viggens and MiG-29Is out of LRR proper, which fly out by Sakhalin and make their way to the ROK from there.

Hmm.. I agree with one thing... something has to break.. .either Drapol or us.

I don't like the idea of handing the peninsula to Drapol. I'd rather negotiate it away if we have to and get some concessions back (ie opening him up).

But then again, the way I see it, he'll milk the 'evil imperialist invaders' thing for a long long time. People can be very deluded when they have a government backing it.

Hmm.. I agree with one thing... something has to break.. .either Drapol or us.

I don't like the idea of handing the peninsula to Drapol. I'd rather negotiate it away if we have to and get some concessions back (ie opening him up).

But then again, the way I see it, he'll milk the 'evil imperialist invaders' thing for a long long time. People can be very deluded when they have a government backing it.

A point...A point...

Well, I'm not sure if negotiations would change that much.

Hey, you know what's an awesome song? Independence Day (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/david-byrne/37146.html), by David Byrne. I'm listening to it on tape, its so awesome!

Even if he had the entire peninsula he'd then just find a grudge against us.. blaming us for 'poisoning' the land or something like that.

It'd be the same as normal, only this time it wouldn't stop on the peninsula. That's my opinion at least. Government styles like Drapol rarely stop after they have acheived their immediate goals.

Good example: Hitler and Germany circa 1939 ... or ... USA after they gained independence (ever heard of manifest destiny? us Canadians know about it)... the English Empire... the French Empire... wow... lots of examples.

I think that we're safe, however, because Dra-pol practically can't invade anything but South Korea.

But if we are going to negotiate, are we ready to give him the Peninsula in return for opening up?

Yep.. and after the USA reached the pacific I'm sure Britain felt similarly.

Besides... if we don't keep Drapol going somehow... I'm going to get fairly bored.

Okay, I see a lot of us are satisifed that having put our own cases and responded to them with various bouts of self back-patting, but what the hey, I'm going to join in the debate anyway.

No, Dra-pol is not using flawless tactics, and no its technology can generally not match foreign technology capability to capability, and there are major issues with such things as what happens when enemy fighters start assembling at range beyond the peninsula itself and engaging with radar guided AAMs at extreme range... but so far as I'm concerned we're still in the first few hours of the fight, and so Dra-pol is not suffering tomorrow's casualties today.

The ground before our artillery barrage is going to be chewed up pretty good, yes, and it's going to make progress slower than it might otherwise be. Still, the UPA is a basic army made to do basic things... like spend its entire life moving around a country with precious little infrastructure. Its tanks have adjustable suspension, a great many of its AVs are fitted with recovery gear (all be it basic) and the troops are well used to dealing with such conditions. This doesn't remove the fact that movement without developed infrastructure is harder and slower than it otherwise would be, but it is quicker in the Drapoel case than one used to ferrying his troops round in relative luxury might imagine.

It is perhaps well that the advance isn't too rapid anyway, as things will be disorderly enough without lightening pace adding to concerns.

Logistics are a minor concern on day one, the hope is that the campaign won't last too long, and there's only so much land to cover anyway. Many vehicles are expected to make it most of the way to the coast without needing to refuel anyway, and soldiers carry improbably great weights of stores and munitions themselves. Where things are in short supply- well, we're expecting to take massive losses anyway, leaving a lot worth looting. As in the last war, enemy gunners will likely see suicidal attempts to recover fuel tanks and such from disabled vehicles, even under fire.

Superiority of enemy planes operating from Korea itself is recognised and compensated for by more than just weight of numbers (over 97,000 aircraft of all types in PAAF service). Our aircraft are by and large more agile than their opponents, and they are about as fast. What works against them is firepower in terms of both detection and engagement range. Those things are mute across most of the theatre where Drapoel aircraft are taking off a few dozen miles from enemy airstrips and engaging all but a handfull of enemy planes at point blank range while 'kamikaze' attacks are inflicted on airstrips. This is going on everywhere our aircraft can reach, and I don't see why we should discern in this respect between mainland and archipelago bases.

As Hudecia says, our tanks are not meant to go toe to toe, one on one, much like an M4 Sherman wasn't meant to go head to head with a Tiger. Ours are meant to get through our rough terrain, and then to use said rough terrain where possible to close with enemy tanks before allowing a clear line of sight to be established between the combatants. Your 120mm smoothbore guns (or whatever else) might be able to take out a T-62 from four miles away across the deserts of Iraq or the plains of eastern Europe, but when theres half a dozen ruddy great hills in the way they're going to need one heck of a penetrator, eh? Then round the corner or over the rise come a couple of Type D-18 MBTs with 115mm guns or Type D-14 Medium Tankss with 105mm Chinese Type 83-I guns, and suddenly you're hit several times from within the kill envelope of even the smaller guns. Maybe you still get one or two of them thanks to your faster tracking turret and the lower likelyhood of all of the enemy tanks having laser range finders (though some do), but in the end it's all the same.

Apart form defending myself I might venture a few disputes of my own- given these tactics (and the hundreds of losses that the PAAF will be suffering as a result) how many airbases north of Cheju-Do are still going to be operational? How many aircraft of the totals deployed in the South were really safe on Cheju-do before it was realised that everything north of there was actually screwed?

And 2020 tech? Doesn't that belong in 2020? And isn't this 2004? We plan to have finished with this a bit before then. See, I don't do future tech in this context... it's not that I won't interact with future tech nations where there's some good RP to have, but using future tech to win some sort of NS race or competition is a different matter. If 2020 tech existed in Dra-pol's world, nations such as Dra-pol and those from which it has acquired weapons technologies would be developing counters to 2020 systems... no future tech in this RP, because I haven't and won't theorise over what teams of professionals might invent to counter systems and abilities that may or may not end up existing in the future.

This, "he'd do this and that" stuff... it is almost making me feel like the line between IC and OOC is being erased. Perhaps it is sometimes directed at Hotan, but I dunno, and even if so, his possible IC behaviour isn't really a matter for OOC tactics-building.

Again I think LRR's forces are being amongst the most sensible, attacking unstable beach heads from way off shore instead of standing and trying to stop them being established without regard for the bombardment one standing subjects himself to. Of course I'll have to try to get fighters from Dra-pol proper and D/E submarines out to disrupt his efforts, but at least it gives the enemies a few minutes of knocking lumps out of the UPA et cetera.

SS don't yet have any serious forces on the ground in the south, do they?

Well, a lot of my tech could be done today given the proper amount of money and the right engineers being thrown at the problem, but since people seem obsessed with measuring what the US could do, it's for practicle purposes 2020 tech.

And no, I don't have any ground forces in Korea at all. That'll change tomorrow when I start transporting things across the sea from Japan, but I imagine getting all of my divisions across will take few days while I clear out the skies. Here are the decriptions of the two primary technologies I just used to whomp on you:

Pallas Athena

The first joint venture between the United City-States of New Empire and the Dominion of Kotterdam, the development of the Pallas Athena TSCS was a direct response to the development of radar systems designed to defeat Athena's earlier variants. Functioning on the principle of active radar cancelling, Athena was an effective active stealth system designed to allow aircraft to escape radar detection while maintaining an aerodynamically-sound architecture.

Athena was developed into three variants dubbed, apropriately enough, Athena Marks I through III. Each one added a new layer of functionality, from improved cycling rates to the ability to alter the radar return to imitate other objects - A flock of birds, or another aircraft, for instance. The Dominion, for its part, had a similar system in development. The Michael Tactical Sensor Countermeasure System was first deployed on the F-34A Perseus fighter, and included the ability to project false returns anywhere within five miles of the aircraft.

Both these systems were rendered vulnerable by a new form of radar pioneered by Sileetris. Designed specifically to defeat Active Radar Canceling sets that had progressed to the point where they return a signature of empty air rather than simply a blank space, it used that very capability against them. Immediately, the Dominion and the UCSNE met to discuss this threat. Together, they were able to design a software update that would allow Athena MkII systems and up to identify and counter such radars by producing the correct return for empty air rather than the tell-tale ARC-response.

Rather than stopping there, however, the two nations took it one step further, producing a fourth Mark of Athena Stealth System, dubbed Pallas Athena. An active radar canceling system, Pallas Athena is based around a superconducting "Cold Frame" computer of Dominion manufacture. Using primarily USCNE software, Pallas Athena cycles 600-times per second, responding to inbound radar signals with the appropriate return for the atmospheric conditions in which the aircraft is currently operating.

Pallas Athena, however, combines the RCS-modifying function of Athena MkIII, allowing it to appear to be other aircraft, or atmospheric phenomena with the radar ghost function of the Michael TSCS, allowing it to project false returns. This means that an aircraft equipped with Pallas Athena could appear to be escorting a B-52H heavy bomber into enemy territory, however, when enemy fighters, or SAM sites come into range and attempt to engage, it could return to its ARC mode, and dissapear. If facing threat-force fighters, it could then engage with a missile shot. If the targets were SAM sites, then Anti-Radiation Missiles could be employed.

This combined capability allows Pallas Athena to be used to devastating effect for feints to draw out enemy fighters, or for "Wild Weasel" air defense suppresion missions by pretending to be a worthy target to lure in its prey. Also, Pallas Athena offers capabilities that neither system had. In addition to the Michael system's ability to provide information on the range, bearing, and type of enemy radars, the Pallas Athena can function in Scatter Mode, something the Athena MkI was designed to defeat. In scatter mode, one radar transmits, and another recieves the information.

Pallas Athena can use transmitting enemy radars to recieve information on the aircraft around it, thus allowing the aircraft to operate as if it had an active radar transmitting while maintaining EMCON. As well, in close combat (within thirty statute miles) Pallas Athena can function as a Low-Probability of Intercept, or LPI all-aspect radar, giving the aircraft carrying it full 720-degree spherical radar coverage out to approximately thirty statute miles. While operating as a radar system, the aircraft is visible to other active radars.

To counter this vunlerability Pallas Athena is fully capable of operating in Snapshot Mode, where it sends out a quick pulse, giving the aircraft a "snapshot" of the area around it. This is useful when a pilot has lost visual contact with a target, in that it gives him an approximate area in which to find it. Additionally, if a pilot is using a LOAL IR-guided missile, information from the "snapshot" can tell the missile approximately where to find the target, much as it would be guided if Pallas Athena were operating in Active mode.

In Snapshot Mode, an aircraft with Pallas Athena appears on radar for a bare second, flashing into existance, then fading away again. This has led to Dominion test pilots dubbing the Perseus fighters carrying the prototype Pallas Athena systems "Fireflies" for the way their radar returns would flash on and off their screens in a mass mock dogfight.


I can't find a description of Taiwan's NPI radar, basically it's an evolution of the LPI radar of the F-22 that changes frequecies at a much higher rate, thus rendering such things as tracking and hard lock-ons nothing more than background noise that most sensors won't even pick up.

I would normally edit my previous post, but this needs seperate attention.

First, I launched 10,070 ACM-1 long-range missiles. More accurately 5,040 were launched by the Fukuoka section and 5,760 launched by the Kitakyushu section. Now those missiles will be target at every aircraft abover the South/Souther-Eastern section of cities I mentioned.

Second, 4,320 ACM-2 missiles were launched and done so divided evenly among the two 6th Air Force fighter sections. Now, these missiles were only targetted at UAF cities on the coast given the much more limited range.

Furthermore, please note that no fighter went within 60 miles of any UAF fighter. Also, assume a 95% overall accuracy rating against your fighters, but note that proportionally more misses would happen at the edge of the ACM-1 range, this of course just makes sense.

EDIT: Btw, if you have any questions or want something addressed then don't hesitate to ask. Here or through TG will do.

I'm still not sure if I should accept near future tech at all, really, but I'm tempted to just because it doesn't really matter.

I'm just wondering, being less than a military expert in reality, about the wisdom of firing ten thousand AAMs into a sky full of aircraft from various forces, when you're newly operating along side some of them and have never faced the enemy before. I mean, it's not like the none Drapoel aircraft in the target area are from a cohesive force with your own and I'm wondering what the friend or foe identification is realistically going to be like...

Apart from that, the PAAF doesn't have enough targets in the air at any one time for this not to be a waste of money and stores, and does have air search radar with a detection range of several hundred miles, these being large numbers of older Soviet and Chinese radar for the likes of S-200, and smaller numbers of modern Beth Gellen Citadel-L for CS-400 Red Sky. Chances are that such a large mass of aircraft would be detected, and quite possibly that large numbers of PAAF fighters would be recalled or sent into retreat across hills and/or attempting to run out of range.

I don't like dealing with these big, "I fire [exact number] of missiles and now post losses please!" things, because how the heck am I supposed to know exactly how horribly inefficient was your course of action?

Er, did you happen to read the over-view on Athena? And before you call it future tech you should know that a similar system is already being manufactured for USAF B-52s and will be operational within a year.

And you're right, I normally wouldn't have fired off that many missiles, but I believe you or someone else characterized the airspace over the ROK as being extremely heavy in the concentration of UAF aircraft. Now, in my mind that means a good portion of your air force would be engaged over the largest concentration of ground fighting. As for IFF, I've had enough time to recieve and program the codes into my radars, it's only a matter of a few hours work.

However, this further illustrates the problem I'm having here. While your writing is some of the best I've ever seen, such things as military concentrations and positions are lacking. Frankly I'm going on your rather vague posts as to what's an appropriate level of force. Now, if you're not going to be specific IC, then please clarify OOC. After all, you have to assume that I'm going to know just how many fighters you have in the area and respond accordingly to establish air superiority. In fact, if you can make a post here as to what you have where I'd be very grateful and I promise to tone things down, but I simply can't afford to not overkill and then be bit in the ass for it while I lack clarification.

Thank you for addressing some of my concerns. Now I'll address yours.

It is indeed our place to debate what Hotan may or may not do next, after all, if we are thinking that this is a world of some sort, what he may do next will be of crucial importance to us.

Secondly, concerning the airbases off the peninsula. As I stated before, in previous threads I was securing the islands fully and fortifying them. That includes aircraft. Although granted a good number of Hudecian fighters would be destroyed on the ground on the peninsula, a fair number would still survive.

If you would like to address my remaining issues I'm all ears. Personally I think your amphibious landings on the east coast are pretty much lost causes. And your artillery/missile support is as likely to hit your own troops as it is to hit mine.

All right, well I think it would be generally best to assume basic principles in action... general responses to general actions (and of course to perhaps RP a few individual examples) rather than to try to relate the specific number of planes in the sky across the entire theatre at a specific moment to the number of rounds and missiles fired against them from the next country over.

I mean, in coming posts I'm prepared to inject the influence of long range missile attacks from SS aircraft on PAAF operation. I honestly don't believe there can be delt a single knock out blow from Japan on PAAF aircraft in the sky, though. We have some planes up, usually flying low over the hills and attacking airbases in Korea, SS puts up some aircraft over Japan in response and moves to begin attacking them, some get killed, some are already going home or gone, and many of them are always going to have time to carry out their assaults before they're engaged from Japan.

It's been said before in Drapoel posts, and it'll likely be realised now, that the PAAF is a single mission tool meant to unify Korea even if it has to operate as a disposable item.

Well, apart from destroying some aircraft on the ground, which is considered possible due to the short reaction times available even to alert bases rather than to this being some sort of oh-gosh-I-didn't-expect-Dra-pol-to-attack-again! thing, we're more interested in putting airbases themselves out of action or reducing their operating capacity. Even if the planes survive, we're aiming to have messed-up their runways and above-ground facilities from fuel trucks to control towers. The hope is to put the enemy airforces out of action early on before our own airforce is crippled and thus to allow ground forces to roll as far as possible and begin over-running some of the airbases even if they still have fighters intact (in fact that would obviously be ideal, especially if efforts had begun to repair the damage we'd done. To the UPA's mind the worst thing that could happen would be for the enemies to destroy and/or evacuate their own airbases right away so we don't get spoils or possibly even the knock-out blow we'd like to discourage you from coming back to hassle Korea for years to come when our air force is likely to be struggling to recover).

As for landings, yes, if our artillery keeps up its barrage for long it'll hit our own forces, but that's the point of having such a weight of fire early on. It was supposed to deliver maximum shock and damage from so many thousand tubes in just a few minutes, and then to walk its barrage away from the beaches when our forces come in. Of course dodgey communications and over zealous troops are likely to send a lot of individual units into friendly fire situations. The rocket support from boats closer in ought to be more effective eventually, as it is sort of...rotational, with new units coming in to build on the barrage and target information laid and gathered by previous units. I think, the thing is with static defences on the islands, they're isolated and rather stuck, I mean, that is to say, once we disable or over-run a single position, that's it out of the fight. Once you sink a ship the next one comes in to take its place, or once an area is proved impossible to get at, we move on to picking at something else... it seems that the Drapoel can more or less dictate the fight on the islands. Perhaps a bit like how isolated Japanese positions on little islands during WWII couldn't hope to compete with the mobile forces coming at and around them. Apparently to you it looks like Dra-pol hasn't got a hope, to me it looks like the Drapoel marines have the edge, I don't know what's going to happen then.
I suppose a big bloody mess with thousands of people getting killed in a sideshow to the millions of men clashing on the mainland. Perhaps we should have a part of the RP focusing on commando attempts to over-run Hudecian (and ROKA?) fortifications on islands or something.

Dra-pol, I need the following things from you:

1) Where are your air units concentrating their operations? Where are the primary UAF bases (whether or not they're buried is irrelevent)?

2) Where is your navy operating primarily? Where are its bases?

3) Have you forward deployed troops yet? Where are they concentrated? Where are your major bases? Where are your logistics centers?

I'm going to be launching sattelites soon and they're advanced enough to find these things within two days on the outside given the rather small size of Korea and the northern part especially.

Hudecia:

maybe, to avoid the risk of a Bonstock repeat, you might get the Allies to agree on your specific set of military goals... restore South Korea? defeat Dra-pol entirely? force a stalemate in order to be in a better negotiating position?

And, how will Korea be reconstructed in the aftermath (who will foot the bill, and who will provide occupying troops? If you had, for example, a Tokarev assurance of their troops fighting for liberation, but not occupation, expat Korean support would be easier to maintain).

After all, as far as I've seen, Allied coordination seems to be rather underdevelloped, especially at the upper political levels. It might be good to have a concrete arrangement.

I agree with Spyr.

Well, my goals are whatever Hudecia's goals are. I'm just providing the force neccessary to make them happen.

Bump. Dra-pol, you still need to answer my questions.

Drapol

The only problem with your USA-Japan analogy with respect to the islands is that Japan didn't have naval superiority during the latter part of WW2. In this case, I think its safe to say that we do. And whoever controls the sea controls the islands.

In response to your previous statement about the fighters and their airbases.. as I posted a few days ago.. I was destroying any airbases that were considered lost causes and moving what fighters I could to the islands.

But this seems kinda redundant since you seem to be saying the war is over.

Spyr

I would set down a firm set of guidelines... but the problem is that we need Tokareve so we can't afford to piss them off. As well, we need the presence of LRR for the time being so we can't afford to make them mad.

Since Tokarev's ultimate goals are different than LRRs and mine most likely, and since LRRs and my goals differ substantially, it would be best in the interests of the war effort to ignore these problems.

Kinda like during WW2, Britain and US chose to ally themselves with USSR in the short term to try to defeat Hitler. In 1941, Britain didn't give a hoot where their help was coming from as long as they got some from somewhere. Similarly, Hudecia wouldn't care.

It's a mute point, but I don't see that it was possible for anyone else to claim local naval superiority in the first hour of the conflict where hundreds of Drapoel vessels operated close to shore without anyone coming in to get them out.
It wasn't meant as an entirely direct comparioson, anyway, I can't be bothered trying to find a better way to explain it, since the first attempt wasn't very good when it was actually important.
I never really understood why Tokarev was apparently willing to put itself in harm's way. Dra-pol had never in history positioned itself as a threat to Tokarev, even when it controlled the whole peninsula, or when Japan and Dra-pol were previously engaged in war on the peninsula. Seemed to me an unlikely political decision to start throwing rocks at the long disinterested nuclear bee-hive on the porch. I say this without knowing much about the political and diplomatic situation on Tokarev, of course.

Say what? The first hour? Dude, I don't know about you, but I think the rest of us thought this RP was in real time, I was certainly handling it that way.

Dra-pol's point is that, no matter what kind of high technology we throw at him, we will most likely not stop the advance. He's got thousands of ships, which my surface BG and missile boats are only scratching the surface of, and hundreds of thousands of armored vehicles.

Essentially:

we cannot hope to stop the assault until it reaches the Ulsan-Daegu-Pusan area where most of our forces and our best fortifications (styled on Dra-pol HARTS etc.) are.

Now granted, I'm throwing a lot of artillery rockets and tube artillery at the advancing Dra-pol ranks, usually from platforms superior in range, reliability, and firepower than what's being used by the UPA's vangaurd. For a good few minutes, LRR defenders can't be touched, with their long-range weaponry.

Now if this were on LRR home turf, not only would the terrain be much less favorable to Dra-pol forces, but the LRRA would be able to call upon much greater numbers (we're talking 1,000,000 combat infantrymen in 50 of the highly mobile infantry divisions, not to mention vehicle drivers, artillerymen, pilots, logistics and engineers, and another 90,000,000 reserves who we can give a rifle to and send out), in troops, vehicles, artillery, and supporting aircraft.

Of course, I could send in another few armored divisions but that is awaiting the response from the Dra-pol government.

You know what my point is? His largest ship is a tenth of the size of my smallest warship. Not only that but one of my fleets has more weight of metal than his entire navy, and I determined that taking his largest ship and using it for every hull he says he has. Furthermore, he says he has ASMs with 120 kilometer range. Good for him, but am I supposed to be impressed? I have naval guns on my DNs and SDs with greater range when I use certain kinds of ammo.

I realize that your missile boat and frigate navies work for you guys, but please don't assume that we have the same. I'm not scared by numbers because I've faced down navies with more ships than I have that also have similar capabilities to my ships, which isn't the case with Dra-pol's navy.

Nah, the thread moved at the pace dictated by, like, me, and stuff. Multiple timestamps appeared. Brief discussion occured on the fact that I wanted to take things slowly. If it'd been moving in real time, the ROK would have fallen before anyone outside the peninsula so much as flinched. I don't recall any suggestion that it would move at real time, but there was ample evidence to the contrary.
As such, the coastal waters were free of any large ships that weren't already sat there waiting to get mauled at sea or torpedoed/bombed/whatever at their moorings. If we'd ever got as far as having the major foreign fleets assemble and float on in, they'd have faced a rolling barrage of missile and possibly torpedo attack from against a hectic, uneaven shoreline obscured here and there by islands and islets. Sure they'd have super dooper countermeasures funded by the absurdity of a situation that leaves a nation capable of producing a massive ocean going force to instead balloon its brownwater capability past almost all destructable proportion. Could they bring them all to bear at once when moving in en masse to engage a rolling wave of tiny, fast, obscured targets? What, by spreading out in a gigantic line in increasingly confined waters full of mines, submarines, missile boats and attack planes overhead? Or just by obaying the laws of physics and not being able to bring them all to bear while the first vessels get ripped to shreds and then the next and the next?

Now, more broadly, and you should see here why I consider these arguments trite and pointless, many of the technologies employed by Scandavian States may be theoretically possible, but they’ve not been realised in the modern world -now I'm building something, here- . Okay, that’s partly because the competition and threats no longer exist in the real modern world as they do in NS, and because nations with the combination of economic strength and population base, and often the political or at least doctrinal stability that is found in NS don’t exist. So nations like SS can justify employing these things, and on an idle whim, but other NS nations/players aren’t going to employ theoretical tech, sometimes because the players don’t care to research it all like pros and sometimes because they don’t expect others to. That is to say they may use real-level technology because of OOC concern for other players, too. So they can’t fight back against hordes of mach 7 cruise missiles, or a bajillion-warhead saturation strike, or a strike from beyond the scope of modern seekers.
But then, where those players have chosen to take advantage of the unrealistic parameters in this economic and technological respect others have taken advantage in different ways, as Dra-pol’s giant public works and manpower and volume of fire and metal. This is absolutely as realistic as the first path, but has been crassly lumped-in with the numberwank sludge. The alternative is in that case techwank.
It could all balance out but for the supposed techwankers’ propensity for refusing to recognise the merits of the inferred numberwank. It was made pretty clear that SS all but thought his opponent to be the DPRK. Nobody was fighting the DPRK –if they’d been fighting the DPRK they’d not be operating with such luxuries of an inflated world- they were in fact fighting the CPRD.
Apparently, only those who care to look-up technobable are allowed to take full advantage of the absurd parameters created by the NS engine and environment, and damn the alternatives.
This is what has irked me. Actually understanding the situation and still being the one told he was wrong.
And this, primarily, is why I choose now to go the third way, abandoning these unreasonable parameters (I need a thesaurus, eh?). Nobody’s going to have an entire country erased by weight of unanswerable fire. Nobody’s going to deploy weapons that won’t be funded or needed in a world guided by reasonable criteria (yes, that’ll do!). And nobody’s going to feel compelled to ignore the impossibility of their position, created by these former absurd conditions.


The arguing doesn't matter, as it's not going anywhere. Read the Asian geography thread, there's an RP revolution afoot, if a little over due, and that is what has really sent this packing.