NationStates Jolt Archive

[OOC: This is the first time I'm trying to design a submarine. I'd been thinking about the idea of such a sub a long time ago (before I'd even heard of NationStates). The idea to create this sub was inspired by Holy panooly's Lich-class but I'm designing this class using this website (http://www.naval-technology.com). I haven't seen the specs for the Lich since HP last put them up. Thus, any similarities to the Lich-class are unintentional.

The idea was to create a sub that can fulfill both the roles of ballistic missile carrier and attack submarine. That would allow the sub to fire torpedoes vertically, making it much more difficult for surface ships to launch depth charges to attack it.

Here is the Stalwart-class SSBN/SSN hybrid:

SPECIFICATIONS:
Complement: 105 officers and men
Measurements: Length 110 m; Draught 10.7 m; Width: 12.8 m
Displacement: 9,700 tonnes surfaced; 12,400 tonnes submerged
Surface speed: 15 knots cruising; 17 knots maximum
Submerged speed: 25 knots
Contains 12 launchers (six port, six starboard) capable of launching torpedoes or ballistic missiles vertically. Includes four bow launchers for horizontal delivery of torpedoes for ASW defense.
Propulsion: Two nuclear reactors, one shaft. Engine provides 75,000 hp
Protection: Coated with radar absorbent material to avoid detection. Seven inches of armour throughout.
PRICE: $3.1 billion.

Since it's my first submarine design, constructive OOC feedback is encouraged.]

[OOC: Looks good, although I never understood the point of a vertically firing torpedo...]

absolutely not. depth charges can only be used when they being behind the ship, not beneath it. And since the Lich can move while firing vertically it provides perfect protection for depth charges.

[OOC: That was HP's response to me when I asked him about whether or not the Lich-class (which also uses a similar principle) is MORE susceptible to a depth charge attack.

Therein lies the point behind the vertical torpedo.]

I'd be careful about positioning them on the sides, the weapons bays that is. When you fired off a missile, the compressed gas charge alone might screw the lateral trim of the ship, and once it was fired she'd be somewhat unbalanced to one side. That problem plagues all missile subs, but it's more pronounced the further from the centreline you get, as I'm sure you know. Then again, I may just be misreading this.

I'd be careful about positioning them on the sides, the weapons bays that is. When you fired off a missile, the compressed gas charge alone might screw the lateral trim of the ship, and once it was fired she'd be somewhat unbalanced to one side. That problem plagues all missile subs, but it's more pronounced the further from the centreline you get, as I'm sure you know. Then again, I may just be misreading this.

[OOC: They'd be laid out similiarly to those of an SSBN. However, they'd be fitted for both torpedoes and missiles.]

Aharr, yeah. Sorry. *Looks embaressed*

Right. Well aside from that I'd ditch the stern tubes and replace them at the bow, and make her a bit slower on the surface.

OOC: What propulsion system does it use?

Aharr, yeah. Sorry. *Looks embaressed*

Right. Well aside from that I'd ditch the stern tubes and replace them at the bow, and make her a bit slower on the surface.

[OOC: No problem. I didn't exactly write it in the clearest language possible.

In other words, no stern tubes and four bow tubes? I'm thinking of somewhere like 15-17 knots surface speed.

BTW, I might do a similar idea with another class but base it more on an SSN and make the second class a bit faster but with less ability to deliver missiles. I'm thinking of calling that the Skipjack-class.

I added some information including propulsion system.]

*launchers moved from stern to bow and surface speed adjusted*

Firstly, mucho respect to you as a ship designer.

But as for a SSN/SSBN hybrid? Well, the basic problem is is that your taking two concepts that require entirely seperate features and turning them into one submarine that fufils neither function well.

SSBNs need to be big and bulky, in order to provide sufficent internal volume for the missiles as well as supplies for the long-endurance patrols they undertake. SSNs need to be smaller and faster, less endurance but more space for weapons. What you have here is a comprimise between these design features meaning that it is too underarmed and slow for a modern SSN and too small and limited for an SSBN.

The big problem I have though...is vertical torpedoes. Now, the idea is basically flawed, and hears why.If you go underneath a vessel in open water, you are going to be detected. Yes, maybe depth charges will be limited, but this aint WW2 any longer, this is modern day warfare, and ships dont carry depth charges, they carry torpedoes, which can turn and can manuoever and seek out and destroy a sub in close proximity.

Let me explain something about modern submarine warfare. Unless you are going against unarmed merchantmen, you keep as far away as possible from your opponent. Thats why torpedoes have a range of 30+ miles, because the closer you get to the target the more likely it is that you will be detected. When going against a modern battlegroup, detection means death.

My advice would be to ditch the missile/verticle torpedo tubes, install a 12/24 cell SLCM VLS and increase the number of forward tubes. What you'd end up with is a submarine that is a true SSN, and one with significantly better capability than the ship has now.

Otherwise, make this thing a few metrs longer, stick in four more tubes, add a few thousand tons to the displacement and make it into a true SSBN.

Just some advice :)

Firstly, mucho respect to you as a ship designer.

[OOC: *Rubs eyes in disbelief* Did I just read that?! Wow, thanks! :D

I was wondering for a while why this concept wasn't widely used. I was thinking of designing another sub (to be called the Skipjack-class) and I could probably use this class to base it upon by following the SSN recommendations. I can also use the SSBN recommendations to redesign the Stalwart as a true SSBN.

I was thinking of making this a little more like an SSN than an SSBN whereas I saw the Lich-class as being closer to an SSBN, though it looks like I ended up trying to make it a jack of all trades and master of none.

When I go live with those subs, this class may just stay on as an unnamed prototype.]

OOC: Well it looks nice to start out with. Basically what you have done is created a nuclear capable variant of the Seawolf or Improved Los Angeles Class Sub. The Improved Los Angeles Class can fire Tomahawk cruise missles from, I think, 12 Vertical tubes and it can fire Harpoon missiles and Torpedos. During the Cold War these subs had nuclear tomahawks. Cruise missiles that carried nuclear warheads. Basically what you are doing is creating a Ballastic Missile version of what I just said. Great idea though. No more need to assign Attack Subs to cover your SSBNs and SSGNs. You should make an SSGN version of this sub though. Because how often do you use sub launched nukes. I've only used them once against You Know Who. Great design. I'm really tempted to buy some of your stuff and usually never buy non RL ships.

And also, what the hell are vertically launched torpedos?

[OOC: That was HP's response to me when I asked him about whether or not the Lich-class (which also uses a similar principle) is MORE susceptible to a depth charge attack.

Therein lies the point behind the vertical torpedo.]
Yah but no one has used depth charges since the second world war. They would be picked up on active sonar and sunk with torpedoes before they could get under a ship.

And also, what the hell are vertically launched torpedos?

[OOC: First of all, thanks for the compliments!

Secondly, what would basically happen with the vertically-launched torpedo is that the missile tubes would be modified to be able to deliver torpedoes. The idea behind that was to make it more difficult for depth charges to hit the sub. The Freethinkers pointed out some problems with that idea though.]

I used the vertical launch tubes for my Pechtas-class SSGNs as an answer to the monster battleships that were popping up in my early days in NationStates (not realising how monstrous they would eventually become...). Mind, I just replaced the SSBN missile tubes with multi-purpose tubes (though non-reloadable) that most modern subs use as bow tubes as opposed to single-purpose tubes for SLCMs figuring that should Mr. Massive-but-ungainly battleship come my way, I would just pre-position a heap of these nasties underneath, go silent, and let rip. Admittedly, it would take a long time for all the torpedoes to fire, and likely many of the torpedoes would be countered by one means or other, but it was the best solution I had at the time...

Since the VL tubes were multi-purpose, however, I could fill the tubes with whatever weapon would fit into my standard torpedo tube, be it anti-ship or anti-surface missile, or anything else.

OOC: You know what I say. Don't overcomplecate things. Insted of vertically launched torpedos just add about 6 torpedo tubes to the sub and their you go problem solved. Then you wont have dumbasses like me saying "Whats a vertically launched topedo."

OOC: You know what I say. Don't overcomplecate things. Insted of vertically launched torpedos just add about 6 torpedo tubes to the sub and their you go problem solved. Then you wont have dumbasses like me saying "Whats a vertically launched topedo."

[OOC: But six is so much fewer than 68, figuring four in the bow, and at least four per ICBM tube that would be filled. A vertically launched torpedo is simply one that is fired vertically rather than horizontally. Wire guidance beyond the vertical axis would be extremely limited at best, so some other form of guidance -- probably by indicating the targetted ship with active sonar from an unmanned probe thereby concealing one's presence until the attack commences. Now, if the tubes were angled, arranged along the centreline, and placed forward (to avoid hitting the sail), the ship would likely be very long, possibly quite slow, but fairly nasty and such positioning would allow for wire guidance.]

Well i suppose you could use your VL tubes to fire a sub launched version of ASROC...

didn't the americans have a bow tube launched torpedeo carrying rocket?


I do use a sort of hybrid design in my silent knife class, it has 3 trident D5 tubes (modifeid to take a number of different modualr payloads including 7 packs of tomahawk and VGS packs) it is a rahter big vessel for it's class (not quite a full on SSBN) but that mainly so that it can a huge amount of relaods for the bow tubes (it is designed to sustained CM bombardment of shore targets) its not aprticularly brilliant but it does the job...

I decided to take up Freethinker's suggestion and create two separate classes: The Stalwart is now a true SSBN and another class, the Skipjack is now the SSN.

I'll look to add an SSK and an SSGN (two separate classes!) soon.