NationStates Jolt Archive

In 2007, the Tokarev government approved a plan, called the ‘8-8 Programme,’ to increase the navy’s battleship force by two squadrons of eight ships. It was assumed that a battleship could be in first line service for eight years; after that it would serve in the line of battle for another eight years, but would be obsolescent. New construction would have to build the fleet to strength, and maintain it by replacing each capital ship after sixteen years.

In 2009, Tokarev ordered the Kongo from Mitsubishi, which was planning to build another three battlecruisers for Tokarev. Since the Super-Dreadnought revolution rendered all Tokarev’s pre-2007 battleships obsolete, to fulfill the 8-8 plan, the Tokarev navy needed four more battlecruisers and eight new battleships. However, government approval was not forthcoming. Fuso, Tokarev’s first modern battleship, was laid down in 2012, but navy demands for seven new battleships and another pair of battlecruisers were at first rejected. The government allowed continued production of the Fuso for international sale, along with the Ise-class, and by 2014 the government finally prepared to put the ‘8-8 Programme’ into action.

In 2016, a new Prime Marshallisimo, Prince Naruhiko Higashikuni, stimulated naval building. The government in that year authorized four battleships and two battlecruisers, and by 2019 the navy was becoming still more ambitious. The plan was now twenty-four battleships in three eight-ship squadrons. The Tosa and Amagi classes with their 16- and 18-inch guns would have formed the first line squadron.

Due to budget cuts in the military, the navy could not afford these grandiose plans in the 2020s. Massive lay-offs at Mitsubishi and Nisseki followed, with the latter yard sold to foreign investors by the end of the decade. Fortunately for the industry, the war-hungry army officers who were then jockeying for power were supported by an equally strident ‘fleet faction’ which helped pull Tokarev into a massive naval arms buildup.

Provided for in the 2018 programme as the second pair of fast battleships in the ‘8-8 Programme,’ the two ships of the Tosa-class were an improved form of the successful Nagato-class designed for Tokarev by a foreign naval power. The Tokarev Navy added a more powerful power plant for a designed 26 knots and added an additional twin 16-inch turret. The second armament consisted of ten 5.5-inch guns on each beam located in casemates on the upper and forecastle decks. Armor protection was improved, the belt being sloped at 15 degrees to present incoming projectiles with a greater thickness of armor for them to penetrate. Some ships of the class were later converted into aircraft carriers, starting with Kaga in 2023, designed for a total of ninety fixed wing aircraft.

The first part of the battlecruiser force envisaged by the ‘8-8 Programme’, the Amagi-class were the battlecruiser equivalent of the Tosa-class. Two were laid down in 2020 and two more in each subsequent year until production caught up with the Tosa-class ships. Some sixty feet longer then Tosa and only one foot greater in beam, an additional 40,000 shp propelled the more streamlined hull at up to 30 knots. Unlike the Tosa-class, the Amagi-class was flush-decked, with ‘Q’ turret one deck higher. At over 40,000 tons, they were impressive battlecruisers, although their 10-inch armor belt was inferior. Like the Tosa-class, some Amagi hulls were later converted into aircraft carriers.

With the completion of the ‘8-8 Programme,’ the Tokarev navy started on an even more ambitious project. It was dubbed Operation Sho (Victory), and entailed creating four of the largest battleships ever built, more powerful then almost any foreign warship, able to hold it’s own against a Doujin, able to engage targets beyond the horizon with their 30-inch guns.

To achieve this tactical surprise, no hint of the true dimensions of the future Tokarev-class could be allowed to escape. Until the advent of the Tokarev-class, no navy had managed to conceal the construction of a whole class of super dreadnoughts. It was not possible to hide the fact that the Kure and Nagasaki Shipyards were building something. While Kure could be sealed off from the outside world, it was on an isolated island inaccessible to the public, the yards at Nagasaki were visible from the city and the foreign consulates overlooked the drydock. The navy promptly built a gigantic storehouse to block the consulates’ view, and erected tall screens of hemp, some 75,000 square metres of it, all around the drydock. To appease the excited press, the navy announced construction of a new series of cruisers, actually under construction in Yokosuka, and released pictures of this class, the future Takao-class.

Draconian security measures were enforced at both yards. The resident population at Nagasaki was subject to successive pogroms to drive them out, and many die-hards were simply rounded up and shipped to Shanghai. The Nagasaki design team was not spared either, an entire shift of engineers was tortured by the secret police after on of the blueprints was misplaced. Few of them were ever mentally or physically fit enough to return to work after their treatment. A worker who bragged about the size of the warship they were building to his wife disappeared into the clutches of the secret police, never to return.

The dimensions of the dreadnoughts created new problems. An 18,000 ton tug, the Sakufu Maru, had to be specially made to maneuver the monstrous hulls once they were in the water. A purpose-built freighter, the Kashino Maru, was needed to ferry the Tokarev’s armament from the naval arsenal at Kure to Nagasaki.

Firing tests revealed the 30-inch guns to be accurate at extreme range, but the blast effects were phenomenal. People standing on deck were killed instantly by the shock wave. No one could afford to be in an exposed position topside if the main armament was fired. Incredible effort was put into making the massive weapons safe, including magnetic containment and ten-foot thick bulkheads stuffed with absorbent material. The guns fired shells weighing 5,370-lb, with a firing cycle lasting 45-75 seconds. Maximum range was 74,500 yards. Three 78-foot range finders were shipped, and remained more reliable than the fire control radar.

The secondary armament reflected its relative lack of importance, but a full awareness of the menace of air attack was evident from the mass of anti-aircraft weapons festooning the center citadel. To maximize protection, her vital machinery was concentrated in a space only slightly more then half her waterline. The armored deck was designed to defeat a 5,000-lb armor-piercing bomb dropped from 10,000 feet. The main armor belt was angled at 20 degrees and built to withstand a 30-inch shell at 23,000 yards. An anti-torpedo bulkhead sloped down to the outer plates of the triple bottom and extended fore and aft beneath the magazines.

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Model Type: B128 Tokarev-class
Manufacturers: Nagasaki Shipyards and Kone Shipyards

http://211.155.23.140/biku/weapons/japother/hyuga.jpg

Displacement, tons: 27,700,000 full load
Length, feet (meters): 6553.1 (1962)
Beam, feet (meters): 1641.6 (491.5)
Draught, feet (meters): 108 (32.3)
Speed, knots: 28
Range, miles: 120,000 at 10 knots
Complement: 10,875 officers and men

Armament, guns: 12 30"/35cal guns
20 14"/50cal guns
12 5"/50cal guns
104 45mm/55cal guns
104 20mm/60cal CIWS guns
150 13mm/76cal guns
Armament, guns: 18 McDonnell Douglas Harpoon SSM launchers
10 Mitsubishi FM-80 SAM launchers
Armament, torpedoes: 24 800mm tubes
Armament, decoys: 2 Nixie towed torpedo decoys
Prairie Masker noise suppression system
12 PK-2 chaff launchers

Armor, belt: 36"
Armor, deck: 28"
Armor, turret: 30"
Armor, conning tower:36"

Fixed wing aircraft: Up to 220 on rear flight deck

Systems: Each Mitsubishi FM-80 SAM system consists of four launch canisters with a J-band engagement radar system, electro-optical tracking system, and missile command link system, taking up approximately 9 square meters. Surveillance radar is mounted on the citadel of the ship. The radar is a pulse doppler system operating in the E/F-band with an acquisition range of 20km. Each can process up to 30 targets and track 12 at a time. Maximum range is 15km and maximum altitude is 5.3 kilometers, and the missile travels at Mach 2.7. It has a single shot hit probability of 80%.

ASO 90 type hull-mounted sonar and low-frequency ACTAS (Activated Towed Array Sonar) form an integrated ASW sonar system combining medium and long-range detection capabilities for tracking silent submarines.

ROMS (Remotely Operated Minehunting System) includes the advanced sonar system DSQS 11-M. One of its outstanding features is the high search rate of the minehunting sonar combined with a large search sector and target data displayed in three dimensions.

Mitsubishi Acoustic Releases and Transponders ranging from shallow-water to 6,000m depth, from light to heavy-duty load. The Mitsubishi MAGIS measures the magnetic field and its variations, enabling users to make a picture of the magnetic field and its anomalies, creating an underwater map. It offers a continuous signal output allowing high sampling rates without compromising sensitivity.

Mitsubishi OCTANS, a gyrocompass and integrated motion sensor, provides high accuracy true heading, pitch, roll, heave, surge, way, speed, and acceleration sensing.

Mitsubishi INS, Inertial Navigation System, provides extremely accurate true heading, attitude, speed, and position navigation thanks to high-level inertial core coupled to an embedded Digital Signal Processor running a Kalman filtor and a multibeam echosounder.

COSYS Command and Fire Control System provides a command team with highly automated evaluation, planning, decision, resource management, and weapon control functions, ensuring the performance of simultaneous engagements and tactical reactions.

The Tokarev also has a Noise Suppression System which drastically reduce the amount of noise that escapes the ship that can be detected by radar or sonar and an Active Jamming System capable of jamming radar of targeted vessles.

Bump

these ships seem like sitting ducks for sophisticated sea-skimming anti-ship missiles and wire-guided torpedoes. How come they don't have anti-aircraft surface-to-air missiles? Or close in weapons systems, such as Vulcan Phalanx 20mm cannon, to shoot down cruise missiles targeting these ships?

I forgot to write in the SAM missiles, sorry about that.

And it does have CIWS ...


EDIT: Added SAM systems.

Bump

UP, fixed spelling mistakes

Added description of SAM

Erm, okay...firstly, not too bad, certainly superior to many efforts out there :)

Pointers:

Firstly, on the engineering stuff, you aint launchin this from a slip, no way, no how. You would have to use a drydock-launch. On a slipway, the structure would collapse under the sheer weight of the vessel being built on top of it. And of course, if the ship was launched down a slipway, the sheer volume of water displace would destroy most of the surrounding docklands and most likely the entire port where the ship was built. Simply what you have to deal with.

Secondly...the armour belts, if they are just standard plating, are way too thick. The sheer weight and strain they would place on the frame would be catastrophic, and, seeing as it is built traditionally (an assumption, correct me if need be) would probably result in severe hull cracking and stress damage over the ships life. Thinner belts would still provide adequate protection.

Speaking of weight, the displacement is way too low, think more along the lines of 8-9 million tons as a light estimate. The good news is though, os that the draft wouldn't need to be changed. Indeed, the vessel currently would only displace about five metres! (Rough calcs should give a displacement/metre of roughly 600,000 tons) Which wouldnt do great for stability.

Its also way too wide. It has a lower beam/length ratio than the Doujin but is a monohull whilst the Doujin is a trimiran! Trim the beam down unless you want this to manuoerver in a straight line for the rest of its life. That said, a big beam does give good stability. I would personally suggest about 400 metres.

As for weapons, yeahs, needs a lot of CIWS and SAMs, but ditch much of the manual gunnery, it is pretty useless. As for the guns, the 30 inchers. Im not a big fan of them, so use them at your peril! They are slow to turn, aim, fire, vulnurable to attack and require hideous amounts of power to use. I would highly recommend lighter weapons, but the choice is up to you. The Doujin mounted them for political impact, so, if you want to go ahead there isnt a problem, but dont expect them to be all-powerful against lighter moving targets.

There are a number of other things, but these are the main things :)

One points 1 and 2, I am not much of an engineer, that is my mistake.

How did you arrive at your estimate for displacement? I thought about this for a while and decided that about 3.8 million was a good number. Can you give me a little math or something?

I honestly have no idea why I made the beam so large, that was just stupid of me.

As for all of the manual weapons, I know they aren't that effective, but it is essentially a tradition in the Tokarev navy (which is based off the WWII Japanese navy) to slap as many anti-aircraft guns onto the main citadel as possible.

As for the 30 inchers, it is pretty much like the Doujin, in that the main effect of them is "Wow! That's one big #*&(*& gun!", I am not expecting this to see much action beyond sailing into an enemy harbor and initimidating them.

Thanks for the advice.

Changes made.

I've done some calculations, and I can't figure out how you got such a high displacement value.

BuMp

Well, the simplest way to deal with weight is to simply cube the increase in length. For example if you increase the length to two time the original, the increase in weight will be eight times the original weight. Why?

Well, ships, like every other 3-D object, increase in size horizontally, vertically, and in width. The length is doubled, so is the height of the ship and the width as well.

So, for this, we'll use the battleship Yamato as a rough guide. The Yamato was 280 metres long and weighed roughly 80,000 tons (very approxed but oh well, its all good). Again, approximately dividing into your ship, we see the Tokarev coming in at about 7 times the length of the Yamatto. Seven cubed is 343, so, 343 x 80,000 = 27,700,000 tons.

Oh dear.

This is different from my last figure because I did the last one extrapolated from a destroyer. Extrapolating from different ship types tends to be awkward, as a destroyer is naturally lighter than a comparatively sized battleship. The weight of a vessel is affected by a number of factors, such as armour mass, weapon load, engines etc. That should be obvious. Thick armour belts weigh a lot more than the thin skins of escorts. So...

For displacement, lets work it out.

The rough dimensions of your ship give us a length of 1962 metres and a beam of 292 metres (approx again). So, that would give us an area of 573000m2...if this was a rectangular barge. For a warship hull we are really looking at a diamond shape. Although slightly thinner than a warship hull generally is, the diamond shape is suitible for our calculations, Ill explain why in a minute.

To get the area of the diamond, we simply have to halve the rectangular area and get = 286500 m2. Now, for the ship to float, it needs to displace its own weight in water. Every cubic metre of water weighs approx 1 ton. Can you see where this is going?

You add a metre depth to the area, then you can see we get 286500 cubic metres of displaced water per metre. So.

27,700,000/286500 = 97 metres

Oh....dear. We are in a mess now. 97 metre drafts would see this thing sink in the middle of the ocean.

So to beat it, we must do two things.

One. Increase the beam to 400-500 metres. This could reduce draft up to a third. Two, make the hull bulkier, so the diamond shape doesnt apply and the hull naturally displaces more water. Doing these two things should get your hull back to 48 metres....just about.

Now...to be honest there isnt a port in the world with 50 odd metres of depth in it. But this is NS, so you can get geography on your side, god knows I have done :)

Hope this helps, and sorry for my own mistakes too.

Just a nitpick, the Yamato was closer to 70,000 tons.

How's that?

Looks good :)

Should stick some more CIWS or soemthing to provide protection against missiles...but meh, its okay so far.

Certainly one of the few vessels that could survive a knockabout with the Doujin.

*blinks*

Ok, you have done a lot of work here, and some quality work it is, but have you ever considered how utterly ludicrous it is to have a 2 kilometer long sea-faring ship? One that masses nearly 30 million tons? Heck, you could put two friggin runways to this and launch B2 Stealth Bombers without problems from those.

Freethinkers: All those 25mm are CIWS. I think that should do nicely ...

Clairmont: Of course its impractical. Ever heard of the fine art we have here in Japan called chindogu? Rule number 1: nothing can be practical. Rule number 2: nothing can be commercial.

Bump

As with all other Super Dreadnoughts, just another thing for me to sink and cause a economic blunder. Persoanly I think that the whole NS Super Dred idea is lame. Yes it is big and powerful, but one of my cheaper fleet groups could take one out with minimal losses. They are more of a diturent than the deciding factor.

That logic is flawed, arguments like yours hinge on the fact that you could manage to catch a single DN or SD alone. If a nation can afford to build one, it can afford to build several. For example, one of my battle squadrons contains seven Fenrir class Dreadnaughts and one Leviathan class Superdreadnaught. I have six such squadrons, and they're all a part of larger fleets.

Ok there buddy..... you can do that all you want but you will still be taken down. While you might tal=ke out some of my billion doller ships, I will take some of you TRILLION doller ships. and dont forget subs. I dont care how much armor you slap on it or how advanced it is. It will be sinkable but many means. And you apparently havent heard of my GODS system either...

Ok there buddy..... you can do that all you want but you will still be taken down. While you might tal=ke out some of my billion doller ships, I will take some of you TRILLION doller ships. and dont forget subs. I dont care how much armor you slap on it or how advanced it is. It will be sinkable but many means. And you apparently havent heard of my GODS system either...

You're only another in a long line of nations who believe that Super-dreds are easily sinkable. While I agree (And so will most other nations) that SD's are nothing more than very, very large targets, that's what they're meant to be. They're essentially fleet escorts, they sit in the middle of a fleet soaking up damage as the rest of the fleet dishes it out with impunity.

Not to mention that breaking an armor belt like super-dreds have is nearly impossible to do before your fleet has been sunk by you ignoring the rest of the other person's fleet.

EDIT: Not to mention that these aren't TRILLION dollar ships. The Doujin Mk II Refit, which I believe is the most expensive of the Super-dreds in existance as of now, is only about 700 billion to purchase and run for many years (That is, including upkeep costs for many years).

Actually USSNA, the Leviathan class, which is my most expensive ship, costs only 29 billion. And IE hit the nail on the head, while you're focusing attention on my SDs and DNs I'm going to litterally rain cruise missiles down on your head with my battlecruisers. Size != Power.

Seeing as that is what my ships are designed to protect against they wont pose a threat. And you are assuming my ship will only be firing on your dreds. I will let the GODS take care of them. And also, a super-dred that is only 29 billion..... you wont carry any armor or armaments at that price. It would take that much alone to lay the keel. That my friends is what I lable a logistics & pricings GODMOD.

No, it would not. The Doujin only costs as much as it does because of its extremely large size, hideously large main guns, and an aircraft compliment that would put most carriers to shame. My ship is a derivitative of Doujin's Leviathon, which can be seen here: http://www.gaizme.com/nationstates/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3

If you want to go at with Freethinkers over the design be my guest, but you won't win.

And how do you propose to sink my superdreadnought, hmm? The armor is more then twice that of the Yamato and Musashi, and inclined at an additional 15 degrees.

Mathematically this thing can take 45 torpedo hits and 38 5,000-lb+ bombs dropped from an altitude of 10,000 feet before the situation is bad. EDIT: This is not taking into account the incline of the armor, which increases effectiveness by a little less then 20% That is assuming you hit sensitive areas, and not taking into account weather conditions and all that. Now, very few modern carrier-launched aircraft have any sort of explosive in the 5,000 lb range or higher, which means the only appreciable effect by aircraft will be from land-based aircraft.

Now, considering the amount of anti-aircraft shots that will be coming from this thing, over 200 rapid-firing guns plus SAM missiles, plus CIWS to destroy incoming missiles, you will need to send most of your entire air force at this thing to do anything, or else your planes will be destroyed before doing any serious damage.

Now, to get the 45 torpedo shots off you are going to need to get tons of destroyers in past the insane escorts this is going to have, then somehow get them to survive long enough to line up a shot. This just isn't going to happen unless you catch this ship alone, which is NOT going to happen.

You would need a task force to destroy this thing, but only if it is alone and you get the first shots. Considering it will have escorts, aircraft carriers, and possible others of the same class along with it, you will need to throw your entire navy at what is essentially a single fleet of mine, and you will take horrendous losses with only a chance of destroying one of my big ships. Even if you do succeed, I have an entire fleet to wipe up what you have left.

In other words ... you lose.

Oh ... and bump.

Smaller navy. lol You arn't even a month old and dont even know my navy. And you guys have no idea..... like I said, leave it up to the gods. They shall decide who wins.



(BTW, I know your an older nation, but I can only go by your forum date ;) As I always say, to bad so sad.)

Take a look at his sig, his primary nation is twice your size.

Actually, I am bigger then you. Turkmeny I have to use because my REAL nation can't log onto the forums because of the forum error described on the "Known Problems" page at NationStates, if you wish to check it out.

Here is my REAL nation, which dates back to approximately November 03.

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_nation/nation=Tokarev

My Navy is the highest priority behind Education in our country. So not only is my Navy larger but it now outclasses yours. Pity.

And sorry if I come off as a jerk, I don't mean to, I am just kind of enjoying this. ;)

Whatever you say............ *Muhahahahahah*

Anyway, dont want to clutter this thread.

More kinetic satellites, can't people be anymore original? :headbang:

Heavens, no, we wouldn't want that, now would we?

Though, it would do well to mention that you should either include in your fleet many, many hunter-killer subs, or massive amounts of ASW equipment on your SD. The Posieden Class Submarine is lethal to Super-dreds.

What is a Poseidon class sub?

Hmm original? and a superdred is? You have no leg to stand on.

EDIT: and who said it had to be a kinetic Satt in the first place? hehehe

The Leviathon and Thunder Child were around before you were even created, they were considered exceptionally large BBGNs before people even knew what the term Dreadnaught meant.

EDIT: And I looked up this GODS of yours, it's ripped right from PopSci. That's not even an original approach for kenetic sats.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=344719

That version is post-modern, but I'm working on a dumbed-down version that only retains the rail-gun, and has all the needed drawbacks that come with rail-guns in this day and age (ie. It must sit still for a while before or after fired the main gun so that it can either save power or regain power. It must surface before firing). However, even with all these down-sides, a rail-gun shot is still quite capable of breaking the back of any Super-Dred. With a fleet to escort the modern version of the Posieden, it would be able to get at your Super-Dred and be tugged away almost before you could suitably retaliate. This is all while your SD breaks in half from its own weight.

Hmm ... I have enough well-developed sonar to be able to detect it easy enough, so it is just a matter of whether ASW destroyers and helicopters will work. Tell me when you get a modern tech version.

Actually, rail guns aren't all that effective anti-ship weapons. You're going to have to ask Freethinker exactly why that is, but I believe it's because the rail would simply blow through a ship and not be able to transfer the majority of its kenetic energy into the target.

More kinetic satellites, can't people be anymore original? :headbang:

[OOC: There aren't too many weapons that are both cost-effective and able to combat kill a Doujin. Kinetic satellites do the job so unless you have another suggestion that will be equally effective and nearly as economical, folks will continue to use proven methods until they no longer work.]

[Yeah, lots and lots of cheap missiles. A Doujin is one cases where it takes less resources to kill than it took to construct. Hell, if one of my battlecruisers emptied its entire series of VLS at it, it would sink.

[Doujin's aren't invincible. Neither are Tokarev's. You just don't want to mess with them. :P ]

BuMpO

hehe nice.I actually like the details about displacement, and i will chac some of my own vessesl (though they were, on the whole based on RL hulls so should be ok)

As for super dreds. I have my own solution for them. Basically its giant upwards torpedos.... Only really effective against big slow vessels, at close range, but if you can remove any subs protecting them and get underneath.... In theory a good hit or two should split one in half...

Ha, that ship wont last more than a year! a huge surface ship, what a joke! now a huge aircraft carying submarine. now thats an idea. an idea that the Armed Republic of Survo has taken and made real. buy today and buy cheap. itss the best thing on the market.

Doujonese ships have lasted. Tokarev probably will too. They just have different weaknesses.

KE weapons just make a hole in the enemy vessel, the only way you can really sink one with railguns (or GOSD or whatever you call the generic KE satellite you use) is to pummel the ship with shot until it is force to withdraw due to diminished capability. It wouldn't actually sink.

What you're forgetting is how amazingly heavy this thing is. Make a hole in the right place, and integrity will drop to zero and it'll buckle under its own weight.

now a huge aircraft carying submarine. now thats an idea. an idea that the Armed Republic of Survo has taken and made real.

Not an original idea, sorry. The Japanese did it sixty years ago. Your a little behind on the technology curve, there, bucko.

What you're forgetting is how amazingly heavy this thing is. Make a hole in the right place, and integrity will drop to zero and it'll buckle under its own weight.

Ships over a million tons aren't built like normal ships. Their frames don't have a dedicated "backbone" that can snap under pressure and break the ship in half. Instead it has a self-reinforcing frame that will sustain more damage for longer periods of time than normal ships. In short, there isn't any such thing as "making a hole in the right place". A hole is a hole and you're going to have to make a bunch of them to make a captain even consider withdrawing the ship.

no offense as I make super-dreadnoughts, but they are SOOO July (too bad I can't say sooo last month LOL)