NationStates Jolt Archive

All conversations in here are OOC. Please use the subscribe feature if you want to "tag" this thread.

This is where we can post our endless list of naval fleets and also hash out any disagreements. As well, please check this (http://www.freewebs.com/klatchia/index.htm) link to find out information on the Klatch. For map stuff, please see the "atlas" section.

Now, as some of you have rightly pointed out, there is no scale on the maps. However, if this helps - the South Klatchian ocean is roughly the size of the Indian Ocean. Also note that not all of the states in the Klatch are one the map yet. Chalk this up to the busy lives of SW Benji and Alcona - who are the resident map makers.

Dyelli Beybi and others can provide more detailed maps. I'm sure there is a more detailed map of DB in the Tersanctus thread showing where his minefield is.

Happy rping!

[tag]

OOC: FYI the minefield is technically in International waters, although Dyelli Beybi insists the waters belong to it.

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Well, I'll probably be sending a battlegroup, maybe two. There really isn't any reason to send more unless this whole thing gets out of hand.

Oh, and Vrak, you made the point earlier that we couldn't approach the FKC without someone taking note. That's true, but none of us particularly care too much about stealth at this point, it's not all that conducive to making points, which is what we plan on doing.

32nd Fleet Squadron

14th Destroyer Task Force
8 Newport Class DDGN
4 Majesty Class DDN
4 Stalwart Class FFGN

16th Submarine Task Force
8 Brutus Class SSN
1 Caesar Class SSGN

16th Carrier Battle Group
1 Pernicious Class ICVBN
2 Endeavour Class CVL
4 Proxima Class CVEN
1 Gettysburg Class BBGN
4 Valiant Class BCNs (ETC Variant)
2 Vengence Class FCGN
3 Merciless Class CAADN
8 Newport Class DDGN
6 Stalwart Class FFGN
3 Brutus Class SSN
3 Johnston Class AOE
2 McClellen Class General Ship Tenders

19th Carrier Battle Group
2 Pernicious II Class ICVBN
1 Vulpine Class CVBN
1 Quantam Class CVACN
3 Proxima Class CVEN
4 Coral Sea Class BBLGN
1 Council Class BBGN
1 Valiant Class BCN (Rail Gun Variant)
4 Valiant Class BCN (ETC Variant)
4 Merciless Class CAADN
5 Newport Class DDGN
6 Stalwart Class FFGN
2 Caesar Class CGN
3 Johnston Class AOE
2 McClellen Class General Ship Tenders

Well, I'll probably be sending a battlegroup, maybe two. There really isn't any reason to send more unless this whole thing gets out of hand.

Oh, and Vrak, you made the point earlier that we couldn't approach the FKC without someone taking note. That's true, but none of us particularly care too much about stealth at this point, it's not all that conducive to making points, which is what we plan on doing.

Well, my whole point is this; it seems that every time the FKC gets into any kind of conflict, fleets just seem to magically appear at our doorstep without any of us being given a chance to respond. It's happened before, and in the interests of having a fair and balanced rp, I'd like to stop it from happening now. After all, my fun with Drak included not only a telegram, but conversations on IRC to iron out and difficulties, and, believe it or not, I counted down how close approach to his islands, eg. 1000km, 700km, etc...

I hope that the same courtesy can be extended towards us, as we are quite reasonable.

Yes, and I will point out that the majority of naval weapons opperate over a considerable range. There is no way you can get close enough to use cannons (as I have seen claimed) without all sorts of missiles getting fired off several hours in advance.

We never particularly claimed that it was possible. Being members of a maritime organization and all, we know our way around most things naval.

Typical Projection Fleet:

1 Aircraft carrier - Kreml class
1 Soyuz III battleship
2 Cruisers – Kirov class
3 Destroyers - Sovremenny class
3 Destroyers - Fregat II Udaloy-II class
6 Frigates - Neustrashimy class
2 Subs - Sierra class Attack II
2 Subs - Shuka-B Akula class II

Typical Hunter/Killer Fleet

Type 1

1 Sub - TYPHOON class
1 Sub - Project 949A Antey / Oscar II
2 Subs - Sierra class Attack II
2 Subs - Shuka-B Akula class II

Type 2

1 Sub - Dolphin DELTA IV
1 Sub - Project 949A Antey / Oscar II
2 Subs - Sierra class Attack II
2 Subs - Shuka-B Akula class II

Typical Guardian Fleet (mostly crewed by reserves/militia - used for patrol, search and rescue, etc...)

1 Destroyer - Sovremenny class
1 Frigate - Neustrashimy class
3 Corvettes - Molniya class
5 Enforcer 2 Class Patrol Boats
(Kravoli) -

The Enforcer patrol boats would be much closer to shore while the bigger ships can and usually would be further out.

We never particularly claimed that it was possible. Being members of a maritime organization and all, we know our way around most things naval.

I wasn't accusing you of it.

I pointed out on the IC thread, and I'll point it out here as well. The minefield runs from about 15 nautical miles to 50 nautical miles off the coast (it isn't that dense). It is layed in International waters. Some mines have probably stopped working, as they are getting rather old and decrepid. It is a good mix of old magnetic and graze fused mines and more modern (and sinister) captive torpedo mines.
There is no map of where the mines are. The Dyellians don't even know. Every now and then they'll send out a mine layer/clearer team to top the field up a little (the layer to lay mines and the clearer to make sure the layer doesn't bump into any of the old ones).

Well, considering the contributions of my various allies to the cause of ridding the world of Dyelli's piracy, I've decided that a couple of battlegroups just isn't good enough. So, a full on fleet is in order. Here's what I shall be sending:

6th Imperial (Expeditionary) Fleet
8 Morrigan class CVNs
1 Leviathan class Superdreadnaught
7 Fenrir class Dreadnaughts
12 Ryuho class Battlecruisers
32 Alexandria class Heavy Cruisers
64 Gaea class DDGNs
32 Revenge class DDENs
8 Upholder class SSNs
8 Clan Grant AOEs

Is everyone that is sending fleets coming up to DB via the Southern Klatchian ocean? Well, I call it "ocean" although some maps say "sea".

Considering the size of some of our vessels and fleets, as well as the desire to step on as few toes as possible in the FKC, I would assume so.

Oh, and Vrak, would you mind directing me to the stats for the ships you mentioned? Also, would you mind telling me how many of each fleet you have?

DB is vaguely future tech by the way. I say vaguely because we're not doing any of that horribly GODMODy "OMG I've got an invisible ship" business. All it means are the missile systems are generally fairly accurate and mostly proof against chaff and ECM (NOTE: not proof against CIWS and such) while the guns have slightly longer ranges (due to being plasma fired). The ship engines are big oil-guzzling WWI and WWII monstrosities, if a little more reliable....oh and one ship and a few subs are coal fired.

Considering the size of some of our vessels and fleets, as well as the desire to step on as few toes as possible in the FKC, I would assume so.

Oh, and Vrak, would you mind directing me to the stats for the ships you mentioned? Also, would you mind telling me how many of each fleet you have?

SS, the number and class of ships are listed above. Just basically take the stats from global security. As well, remember that although each fleet may be small, we do have several of them. Basically, our geography dictates that we are primarily a land and air power - not naval.

I'm mostly modern tech as well. That is, if people start pulling stuff out of ass space then I will too. I don't want to, though.

*shrugs* The missiles don't bother me all that much. My missiles have both NPI radar guidance and terminal LIDAR guidance, so the probability of them being jammed/spoofed isn't very likely at all. As for plasma-fired cannons, do you mean ETCs?

EDIT: Thanks Vrak
EDIT2: Now that I look twice, I still don't see how many of those fleets you have for each type. Also, can I assume you use standard Soviet missiles as well?

*shrugs* The missiles don't bother me all that much. My missiles have both NPI radar guidance and terminal LIDAR guidance, so the probability of them being jammed/spoofed isn't very likely at all. As for plasma-fired cannons, do you mean ETCs?

EDIT: Thanks Vrak
EDIT2: Now that I look twice, I still don't see how many of those fleets you have for each type. Also, can I assume you use standard Soviet missiles as well?

Well, I'm not going to give away the entire farm by telling you my entire fleet deployment. You'll have to find some things out on your own. As far as missiles, you can assume the latest Russian stuff. Unlike Russia, Vrak is not broke.

Well being as people are putting fleet details up I'll post up everything I'm claiming to have.

1 x 'Lord Fisher' Super Heavy Battleship
4 x 'General vonPaulus' Super Carrier (100 planes)
3 x 'D'Artagnon' Super Carrier (75 planes)
2 'Marshall Suvorov' Super Hybrid Carrier Battleship ( 8 planes and 50 helicopters)
3 x 'Benito Mussolini' Class Battleship
14 x 'Goeben' Battle Cruiser
2 x 'Adolf Eichmann' Fleet Carrier (24 planes)
1 x 'Erwin Rommel' Battleship
28 x 'Assaye' Battle Cruiser
1 x 'Vrak' Coastal Protection Ship
28 x 'Seringapatam' Pocket Battleship
56 x 'Altenfiord' Battle Cruiser
66 x 'Admiral Benbow' Armoured Cruiser
56 x 'Hugh O'Neill' Protected Cruiser
20 x 'Prefect' Armoured Cruiser
10 x 'General Sanders' Scout Cruiser
10 x 'Fidel Castro' Destroyer Leader
20 x 'Che Guavera' Scout Cruiser
20 x 'Rorke's Drift' Destroyer
20 x 'Shiloh' Escort
14 x 'Skua' Destroyer Escort
30 x 'Ludwig Ritter von Benedek' Destroyer Escort
50 x 'Comrade Lenin' Motorised Torpedo Boat
20 x 'General Bennigsen' Motorised Patrol Boat
80 x ''Poltava' Motorised Patrol Boat

20 x 'T-Boat' Super Submarine (Attack Role)
20 x 'S-Boat' Super Submarine (Attack Role)
30 x 'R-Boat' Fleet Submarine (Attack Role)
5 x 'K Boat' Super Submarine (Experimental - failed)
5 x 'E-Boat' Super Submarine (Experimental - failed)
20 x 'A-Boat' Super Submarine (Nuclear Capable)

28 x Tankers
14 x Ammunition ressuply vessels
32 x 'General Montgomery' Tank Landers
16 x 'Napoleon Bonaparte' Heavy Troop Transport
4 x Well Ships
20 x 'Flash' Mine Layer
10 x 'Panner' Mine Clearer

These are the stats for my primary surface combatants, I'll post the stats for my capships once I get the complete stats for my battlecruiser.

Revenge class Nuclear-Powered Escort Destroyer
Displacement: 16,000 tons
Dimensions: 190m L, 50m W, 7.5m D
Propulsion:
2 x Pebblebed reactors rated at 110Mw each
6 x Water jets
Speed: 38 knots (top speed)
Crew: 233
Endurance: Limited to crew endurance only.
Radar:
APAR-12C Air/Surface (Long Range Air/Surface Search/Tracking)
PDI ASL-1 (Mod 1) (Short Range/CIWS Air Search/Tracking LIDAR)
PDI SAMPSON-NPI Air/Surface (Medium Range Air Search/Tracking)
G04 Navigation
Fire Control:
Falltech GSWDC Control Bloc (Ship Control)
Falltech NG04A (Mod 2) (Gunfire Control)
Host arrays for multilink combat systems (such as AEGIS)
EW:
Falltech Mk.602 Intercept/Jamming Unit
4 x Falltech Type 5 MR Chaff/Flare Dispensers
SLQ-25A Nixie torpedo countermeasure
Mk53 SRBOC decoy RL
Host arrays for ELINT equipment
LIDAR:
PDI NSL-1A (Hull mounted, medium range)
PDI NSL-2A (Multiple line towed LIDAR array, medium range)
Aviation: Large Helipad and Hangar, 2 x medium helicopters.
Armament:
2 x 6"/52 Mk3 ETC Naval Gun Systems
2 x 32-cell Strategic Single-Load Mk72 VLS
1 x 96-cell Tactical Dual-Load Mk72 VLS
4 x Quad PDI Seahawk SSM Launchers
3 x Mk45 CAMDS
2 x PDI Dual 30mm ETC Cannons
2 x ML 324mm Torpedo Tubes (36 Torpedoes/Mines/Depth Charges)
4 x Mk2 12-Cell Unguided ASW Mortars
Armour: 130mm Alloy A

Gaea class Nuclear-Powered Guided Missile Destroyer
Displacement: 24,000 tons
Dimensions: 225M L x 56M W x 8.5M D
Propulsion:
2 x Pebblebed reactors rated at 110Mw each
6 x Water jets
Speed: 38 knots (top speed)
Crew: 250
Endurance: Limited to crew endurance only.
Radar:
APAR-12C Air/Surface (Long Range Air/Surface Search/Tracking)
PDI ASL-1 (Mod 1) (Short Range/CIWS Air Search/Tracking LIDAR)
PDI SAMPSON-NPI Air/Surface (Medium Range Air Search/Tracking)
G04 Navigation
Fire Control:
Falltech GSWDC Control Bloc (Ship Control)
Falltech NG04A (Mod 2) (Gunfire Control)
Host arrays for multilink combat systems (such as AEGIS)
EW:
Falltech Mk.602 Intercept/Jamming Unit
4 x Falltech Type 5 MR Chaff/Flare Dispensers
SLQ-25A Nixie torpedo countermeasure
Mk53 SRBOC decoy RL
Host arrays for ELINT equipment
LIDAR:
PDI NSL-1A (Hull mounted, medium range)
PDI NSL-2A (Multiple line towed LIDAR array, medium range)
Aviation: Large Helipad and Hangar, 2 x medium helicopters.
Armament:
2 x 6”/52 ETC
2 x 16-Cell Mk72 Strategic Single-Load VLS
2 x 96-Cell Mk72 Tactical Dual-Load VLS
1 x 64-Cell Mk72 Tactical Dual-Load VLS
2 x Quad Reloadable Seahawk ASM Launchers (40 missiles)
4 x Mk45 CAMDS
4 x 20mm BI M/C Cannons
4 x Machine Gun Mounts
2 x ML 324mm Torpedo Tubes (20 Torpedoes/Mines/Depth Charges)
2 x ML 533mm Torpedo Tubes (8 Torpedoes/Mines)
4 x Mk2 12-Cell Unguided ASW Mortars
Armour: 150mm Alloy A

Concord class Heavy Cruiser
Displacement: 32,000 tons
Dimensions: 218M L x 51M W x 8.1M D
Propulsion:
2 x Pebblebed reactors rated at 125Mw each
6 x Water jets
Speed: 38 knots (top speed)
Crew: 280
Endurance: Limited to crew endurance only.
Radar:
APAR-12C Air/Surface (Long Range Air/Surface Search/Tracking)
PDI ASL-1 (Mod 1) (Short Range/CIWS Air Search/Tracking LIDAR)
PDI SAMPSON-NPI Air/Surface (Medium Range Air Search/Tracking)
G04 Navigation
Fire Control:
Falltech GSWDC Control Bloc (Ship Control)
Falltech NG04A (Mod 2) (Gunfire Control)
Host arrays for multilink combat systems (such as AEGIS)
EW:
Falltech Mk.602 Intercept/Jamming Unit
4 x Falltech Type 5 MR Chaff/Flare Dispensers
SLQ-25A Nixie torpedo countermeasure
Mk53 SRBOC decoy RL
Host arrays for ELINT equipment
LIDAR:
PDI NSL-1A (Hull mounted, medium range)
PDI NSL-2A (Multiple line towed LIDAR array, medium range)
Aviation: Large Helipad and Hangar, 4 x medium helicopters.
Armament:
6 x 8”/48 ETC (Triple Mounts)
2 x 64-Cell Mk72 Tactical Single-Load VLS (132 missiles)
2 x 36-Cell Mk72 Tactical Single-Load VLS (72 missiles)
7 x Mk45 CAMDS
2 x 20mm BI M/C Cannons
2 x Machine Gun Mounts
2 x ML 533mm Torpedo Tubes (12 Torpedoes/24 Mines)
4 x Mk2 12-Cell Unguided ASW Mortars
Armour: 200mm Alloy A

2nd "Home" Fleet
2 Nimitz class carriers
1 Iowa class battleship (modernized)
6 Ticonderoga class missile cruisers
10 Arleigh Burke class destroyers
3 Spruance class destroyers
15 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates
**CLASSIFIED** Submarine force strength
4 Oilers
6 Supply ships

The 2nd Fleet is currently in home port in Monte Ozarka (where Axe Maniacs was on the map). If Jiggady does not grant permission to sail through its waters, the fleet will arrive in ~1 RL day.

3rd Fleet
2 Nimitz class carriers (HES Solidarity flagship)
4 Ticonderoga class missile cruisers
7 Arleigh Burke class destroyers
5 Spruance class destroyers
11 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates
**CLASSIFIED** Submarine force strength
3 Oilers
5 Supply ships

The 3rd Fleet is currently steaming back towards Monte Ozarka from the seas south of the Klatch. It is headed to a position alongside the 2nd Fleet and shall arrive in ~2 RL days.

27th Destroyer Squadron
10 Arleigh Burke class destroyers
4 Spruance class destroyers
2 Oilers
2 Supply ships

The 27th Destroyer Squadron is currently in maneuvers in the Bay of Lunacy. It shall take the same route as the 2nd Fleet, but will get there faster due to the lightness of the ships. ETA ~12hours.

LEVAL Classifications
LEVAL 1: Normal; no threat of attack.
LEVAL 2: Some threat of attack.
LEVAL 3: Volatile situations create a possible and real threat of attack.
LEVAL 4: Imminent war.
LEVAL 5: War, under attack, and/or full mobilization.

I hope I have these numbers right, or at least close…

Just floating around with a big “Please loot me” sign.

Der Angst – 1 weird ship.

IDF – 1 cargo ship; Big Fitz

Crookfur – 1 ship

Brydog – 1 ship

Rodava – 1 ship


The Evil Dogs threatening the FKC!

Doujin – 90 ships (3 battlefleets)

Pacific Northwesteria – 65 ships

Hamptonshire – 103

Independent Hitman – 2 ships

Scandavian States – 172


The Innocent and Pure FKC!

North Germania – 7 ships

Monte Ozarka – 102 (don’t know how many subs)

Vrak – haven’t deployed any fleets yet. Most like at least one projection fleet (20 ships) will arrive. Maybe a couple hunter/killer fleets (6 subs apiece)

edit: 432 enemy ships closing in on the FKC. Gee, no wonder why we might think this is a threat.

You know, there's no point in not posting your numbers in an OOC thread. Besides the fact that it's fairly easy to find subs using satellites, the numbers aren't going to be a mystery once they get into SONAR/LIDAR detection range.

EDIT: Funny Vrak.
EDIT: I can't remember exactly, but I think Doujin is deploying three battle fleets with 90 ships each.

You know, there's no point in not posting your numbers in an OOC thread. Besides the fact that it's fairly easy to find subs using satellites, the numbers aren't going to be a mystery once they get into SONAR/LIDAR detection range.

EDIT: Funny Vrak.
EDIT: I can't remember exactly, but I think Doujin is deploying three battle fleets with 90 ships each.

Actually I believe it's 3 Battlefleets with 30 ships each for a total of 90 ships.


Also have to agree with SS here, once our fleets move into the area it would be pretty hard, more like damn near impossible, to hide submarines. Maybe a few isolated subs will escape detection, but with all the ASW equipment coming in it would be hard to keep submarine movements outside of the immediate near coastline secret.

Granted, but just b/c submarines are connected to a fleet doesn't mean they have to travel with them. Nor do the subs have to wind up in the same place as the surface fleet. After all, that's like putting up a big sign that says, "Hey, I'm here! In the most obvious spot!" When your ships get close enough, they'll find (most of) them, but as for now, they're somewhere in the big blue (or black, chemical-filled) sea.

And wow...I didn't actually realize that I had that many ships out there... :rolleyes: Whatever...still horribly outmatched, numerically, though. You would think that w/everyone pissed off at DB, he'd send more ships out...

DB is fielding 530 ships (admitedly some are little torpedo boats and one tends to rip itself apart if it fires it's cannons too much) and 100 submarines (admitedly some are coal powered).

Actually I believe it's 3 Battlefleets with 30 ships each for a total of 90 ships.


Also have to agree with SS here, once our fleets move into the area it would be pretty hard, more like damn near impossible, to hide submarines. Maybe a few isolated subs will escape detection, but with all the ASW equipment coming in it would be hard to keep submarine movements outside of the immediate near coastline secret.


Thats untrue. A lot of subs (especially diesel-electrics) can stay very well hidden up until about 5 nautical miles range.

That's the whole Dyellian submarine fleet by the way, except for the pure electrics and coal-electrics.

Thats untrue. A lot of subs (especially diesel-electrics) can stay very well hidden up until about 5 nautical miles range.

That's the whole Dyellian submarine fleet by the way, except for the pure electrics and coal-electrics.


That's true, but the Hamptonian ships are fitted with Red Ruby Naval Magnetometers. If it's made of metal, chances are you'll be picked up at a distance greater than 5 NM.

Additionally, a sub might only be detected at 5 NM distance, but that would be 5 NMs from the picket ships, not the main fleet body.

[Quiet doesn't help you against LIDAR arrays. Mind you, compared to traditional detection methods LIDAR is a little short-winded, but that's where extremely tight, networked ASW converage comes in.]

Oh, and I'm going to protest DGNT's presence in this RP. While I will readily admit that I'm one of the more advanced nations in this conflict, my ships can at least be countered. However, such a case does not exist with DGNT's space navy and frankly I can already tell that it would ruin any RP, at least for my side.

Yeah, unless DNGT brings down his tech level for this his participation will really bring this RP crashing down.

DGNT, do you have any kind of "ancient" (modern) tech stuff you can use?

As for the number of Doujin ships:

11-08-2004, 11:50 PM #52
Doujin
Sp@mQueen advisor


Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bloomington, Illinois
Posts: 4,287

<snip IC stuff>

OOC: Ok, I apologize but I must cut it off here. I really am not feeling too good. The Fleet Command consists of three battlefleets, which is somewhere along the lines of 30 ships per battlefleet without adding the additional 16 ships. I'd hate to have to fight you, by the way NG :x We've had such great relations in the past -.- Again, I apologize.

What "tech" level is a Doujin-class ship? Certainly not modern, I'd think.

Stats for a Doujin. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=342191)

What "tech" level is a Doujin-class ship? Certainly not modern, I'd think.

Stats for a Doujin. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=342191)

It is modern, well late-modern, tech.

Its actually refined modern tech. I believe Doujin goes up to 2010 though. There is nothing on the ship aside from its ETC's that are beyond modern technology. You could, with sufficent amounts of money, time and resources build one today.

Before you ask, yes, ships can go up to that size, and bigger if necessary just so long as its weight is matched by its displacement of water. The problem for the Doujin is tha it is without precedent in RL, though there are no structural problems. Its just a very big boat. :)

Its actually refined modern tech. I believe Doujin goes up to 2010 though. There is nothing on the ship aside from its ETC's that are beyond modern technology. You could, with sufficent amounts of money, time and resources build one today.

Before you ask, yes, ships can go up to that size, and bigger if necessary just so long as its weight is matched by its displacement of water. The problem for the Doujin is tha it is without precedent in RL, though there are no structural problems. Its just a very big boat. :)

That's the rub, isn't it? Some take a fairly narrow view of "modern" tech and say that if it doesn't exist in real life, then it would be, well, future tech or post modern tech. Long ago, Edolia and myself built the "Titan" guns which were basically a modest refinement on Saddam's long range guns. We even had historical precedence (Paris gun, etc...) but talk about getting a lot of flak.

It comes down to a classical "what if" argument, of which there usually is no satisfactory answer.

I'm willing to accept the Doujin in a post modern or near future tech level. It may have just "modern" weapons but the sheer size of it I would think provide some engineering obstacles that may or may not be easily overcome in the present time period.

PSIPOKE!

Post #75 waiting for an answer, DB :P

*Assumes it has been overseen, or something, considering the close posting time*

And as promised, my capital ships.

Ryuho class Nuclear-Powered Guided Missile Battlecruiser
Displacement: 50,000 tons
Dimensions: 262M L x 61M W x 8.5M D
Propulsion:
4 x Pebblebed reactors rated at 125Mw each
4 x Water jets
Speed: 35 knots (top speed)
Crew: 250
Endurance: Limited to crew endurance only.
Radar:
APAR-12C Air/Surface (Long Range Air/Surface Search/Tracking)
PDI ASL-1 (Mod 1) (Short Range/CIWS Air Search/Tracking LIDAR)
PDI SAMPSON-NPI Air/Surface (Medium Range Air Search/Tracking)
G04 Navigation
Fire Control:
Falltech GSWDC Control Bloc (Ship Control)
Falltech NG04A (Mod 2) (Gunfire Control)
Host arrays for multilink combat systems (such as AEGIS)
EW:
Falltech Mk602 Intercept/Jamming Unit
6 x Falltech Type 5 MR Chaff/Flare Dispensers
SLQ-25A Nixie torpedo countermeasure
Mk53 SRBOC decoy RL
Host arrays for ELINT equipment
LIDAR:
PDI NSL-1A (Hull mounted, medium range)
PDI NSL-2A (Multiple line towed LIDAR array, medium range)
Aviation: Two small helipads and hangar on either secondary hull, 2 x medium helicopters.
Armament:
2 x 8”/48 ETC (Single Mounts)
12 x 96-Cell Mk72 Strategic Dual-Load VLS
11 x Mk45 CAMDS
4 x 20mm BI M/C Cannons
4 x ML 533mm Torpedo Tubes (16 Torpedoes/32 Mines)
4 x Mk2 12-Cell Unguided ASW Mortars
Armour: 300mm Alloy A

Fenrir class Dreadnaught
Displacement: 280,000 tons
Dimensions: 381M L x 90M W x 11M D
Propulsion:
6 x Pebblebed reactors rated at 150Mw each
12 x Water jets
Speed: 36 knots (top speed)
Crew: 1,000
Endurance: Limited to crew endurance only.
Radar:
APAR-12C Air/Surface (Long Range Air/Surface Search/Tracking)
PDI ASL-1 (Mod 1) (Short Range/CIWS Air Search/Tracking LIDAR)
PDI SAMPSON-NPI Air/Surface (Medium Range Air Search/Tracking)
G04 Navigation
Fire Control:
Falltech GSWDC Control Bloc (Ship Control)
Falltech NG04A (Mod 2) (Gunfire Control)
Host arrays for multilink combat systems (such as AEGIS)
EW:
Falltech Mk602 Intercept/Jamming Unit
6 x Falltech Type 5 MR Chaff/Flare Dispensers
SLQ-25A Nixie torpedo countermeasure
Mk53 SRBOC decoy RL
Host arrays for ELINT equipment
LIDAR:
PDI NSL-1A (Hull mounted, medium range)
PDI NSL-2A (Multiple line towed LIDAR array, medium range)
Aviation: Two small helipads and hangar on either secondary hull, 2 x medium helicopters.
Armament:
15 x 22”/72 ETC (Triple Mounts)
16 x 5”/54 ETC (Single Mounts)
32 x Seahawk SSM Launchers (No Reloads)
4 x Quad Skyhawk SAM/TDM Launchers (160 Missiles, Auto-reload)
15 x Mk45 CAMDS
12 x 20mm BI M/C Cannons
8 x Machine Gun Mounts
4 x ML 533mm Torpedo Tubes (28 Torpedoes/56 Mines)
4 x Mk2 12-Cell Unguided ASW Mortars
Armour: 750mm Alloy A

Morrigan class Nuclear-Powered Aircraft Carrier
Displacement: 475,000 tons
Dimensions: 562M L x 112M W x 19M D
Propulsion:
4 x Pebblebed reactors rated at 150Mw each
8 x Water jets
2 x Maneuvering thrusters
Speed: 30 knots (top speed)
Crew: 6,700
Endurance: Limited to crew endurance only.
Radar:
APAR-12C Air/Surface (Long Range Air/Surface Search/Tracking)
PDI ASL-1 (Mod 1) (Short Range/CIWS Air Search/Tracking LIDAR)
PDI SAMPSON-NPI Air/Surface (Medium Range Air Search/Tracking)
G04 Navigation
Fire Control:
Falltech GSWDC Control Bloc (Ship Control)
Host arrays for multilink combat systems (such as AEGIS)
EW:
Falltech Mk602 Intercept/Jamming Unit
8 x Falltech Type 5 MR Chaff/Flare Dispensers
SLQ-25A Nixie torpedo countermeasure
Mk53 SRBOC decoy RL
Host arrays for ELINT equipment
LIDAR:
PDI NSL-1A (Hull mounted, medium range)
Aviation: A large, nearly full-length flight deck with an area of roughly 40,000 meters square, covering the surface of the ship apart from the bow and the rear VLS systems. Six EM catapults have been installed, two moving off the bow ski-jump, and two moving off either ‘wing’ on the secondary hulls. The ski-jump is designed to allow the easier operation of VSTOL aircraft as well as allowing larger aircraft with significant loading weight to take off, providing the aircraft has sufficient structural strength. Total of 160 aircraft.
Armament:
3 x 96-Cell Mk72 Strategic Single-Load VLS
7 x Mk45 CAMDS
4 x Mk2 12-Cell Unguided ASW Mortars
Armour: 200mm Alloy A

Leviathan class Superdreadnaught
Displacement: 650,000 tons
Dimensions: 550M L x 140M W x 25M D
Propulsion:
8 x Pebblebed reactors rated at 150Mw each
8 x Water jets
Speed: 36 knots (top speed)
Crew: 2,000
Endurance: Limited to crew endurance only.
Radar:
APAR-12C Air/Surface (Long Range Air/Surface Search/Tracking)
PDI ASL-1 (Mod 1) (Short Range/CIWS Air Search/Tracking LIDAR)
PDI SAMPSON-NPI Air/Surface (Medium Range Air Search/Tracking)
G04 Navigation
Fire Control:
Falltech GSWDC Control Bloc (Ship Control)
Falltech NG04A (Mod 2) (Gunfire Control)
Host arrays for multilink combat systems (such as AEGIS)
EW:
Falltech Mk602 Intercept/Jamming Unit
6 x Falltech Type 5 MR Chaff/Flare Dispensers
SLQ-25A Nixie torpedo countermeasure
Mk53 SRBOC decoy RL
Host arrays for ELINT equipment
LIDAR:
PDI NSL-1A (Hull mounted, medium range)
PDI NSL-2A (Multiple line towed LIDAR array, medium range)
Aviation: One extensive helipad and hangar, 8 x medium helicopters.
Armament:
24 x 22”/72 ETC (Quadruple Mounts)
8 x 5”/54 ETC (Single Mounts)
2 x 40-Cell Tactical Dual-Load Mk72 VLS
16 x Mk45 CAMDS
6 x 20mm BI M/C Cannons
4 x Machine Gun Mounts
4 x ML 533mm Torpedo Tubes (28 Torpedoes/56 Mines)
4 x Mk2 12-Cell Unguided ASW Mortars
Armour: 750mm Alloy A


Btw, you guys might want to look up NPI radar, it's a creation of _Taiwan's. It was originally for aircraft radars, but I've adopted it for all of my radars.

Vrak: Is that quote in your sig something I said?

To all parties remember there are JDF fleet presences to the east and west of D.B. and that the following states can Rp the JDF under Klatchian Rules
Alcona
Jiggady
Durakus
Since they are members of the Privy Council

I am making known that the fleets are present and active, however I do not have the RL time at the moment to figure out what I can send down there.

I will attempt to flesh out my orginization of the JDF fleets

Goody, more floating targets.

Goody, more floating targets.

Just try to keep this in mind: our supply lines are much shorter than yours and we are fighting on home ground.

I suppose the stuff i put in the IC thread should really be here but anyway...

Appart from the Q-ship (just a concept i wanted to play with) any Crookfur naval assets are still in the middle of transit from the nearest freindly base and are about 2-3 days behind any OMP formation...

*shrug* That's true, but the 3:1 advantage that grants you and the slight numerical advantage don't come close to even making up for the qualitive (ships and training) and firepower advantages the OMP fleets hold. Could we take on the entire FKC with what we've deployed now? Absolutely not. Can the OMP win against what the FKC has deployed now? Easily.

I was not planning on taking action unless Klatch itself was invaded, in which case, since Klatch is technically one country (Thats what I was told), I would be forced to act.
But, I wont use my space forces unless DGNT itself is attacked. Ill keep it to semi-modern.
Basicaly, I wont use my mecha, since all my rifles are modern or close enough, and my tanks are basicaly modern ones with energy weapons.

And, of course, any use of weapons in space will be met by my space forces.

PSIPOKE!

Post #75 waiting for an answer, DB :P

*Assumes it has been overseen, or something, considering the close posting time*


Ohh sorry, I totally missed that under all the other posts.

*shrug* That's true, but the 3:1 advantage that grants you and the slight numerical advantage don't come close to even making up for the qualitive (ships and training) and firepower advantages the OMP fleets hold. Could we take on the entire FKC with what we've deployed now? Absolutely not. Can the OMP win against what the FKC has deployed now? Easily.


Assuming your ships and sailors are better is a little bit of a bad way to start out.

Perhaps, but there's a few reasons I'm making that assumption:

1) I believe that both you and Vrak have stated that you're mostly ground powers, which to my mind means that training is somewhat lacking in your navies in order to free up more cash for your armies.

2) Using Vrak as an example, I'm assuming most of the ships in the FKC are either RL ships or designed along those lines. Almost all of the OMP ships here are designed to take advantage of the inherent weaknesses in such ships.

3) It's also a bit of arrogance talking. I haven't ever lost a naval battle and I can't recall any of the other OMP nations here having lost one either, although I can't be sure.

EDIT: But if you think I'm wrong, prove it, it's what OOC threads are for.

Yes, our ships are mainly RL ships. I, for one, am too lazy to design my own ships, and that is no one's fault but mine. Thus, I am fully ready to lose on the seas, should it come to war. The FKC are mainly ground powers, and although you may control the ocean, the ground war will be MUCH harder for you to win. This is where logistics really come into play. Plus, all our air forces and missile arsenals are but a few steps away. You have to rely on carriers or air deployments from halfway around the world.

I call that a rather large advantage.

DB: Has the Kriegsmarine officially halted all pirate activity in light of these events?

Don't get me wrong, I'm worrying about what you could do to our fleets if we decided to park close to your shore. However, right now I'm just concentrating on the upcoming naval battle.

EDIT: What ground war? What in God's name makes you think we're going to try to invade you? None of us have brought sufficient assault assets to even establish a beach head, much less actually fight a land war.

Who knows? Tensions may escalate. I wasn't saying that you, specifically would invade the FKC, but someone out there might. Don't get me wrong...as long as you keep out of Klatchian waters, happy Djelli hunting! Also, from the looks of it, DB is just itching for an all-out war of some sort. :rolleyes:

*shrug* That's true, but the 3:1 advantage that grants you and the slight numerical advantage don't come close to even making up for the qualitive (ships and training) and firepower advantages the OMP fleets hold. Could we take on the entire FKC with what we've deployed now? Absolutely not. Can the OMP win against what the FKC has deployed now? Easily.

And there's the rub. The FKC hasn't even come close to deploying all of its fleets. Mostly because some players such as Dukratus, Calarca, Rillanon, etc.. are rather busy in real life. Such is the case with rps though.

As well, I doubt the OMP (or any other organization or nation for that matter) would deploy a staggering amount of force to attack. Why? It would be leaving its homelands vulnerable - since I doubt the FKC is your only "enemy". And please don't assume that the FKC has a lack of training, okay? When it comes down to sheer economic and industrial might, few can match Vrak - according to the UN rankings.

Latest rankings:

#400 in Largest Defence force per capita
#150 in Largest Arms Manufacturing Sector

RAWR! :)

In other words, we can equip our troops with the latest and best. I just haven't sat down to wank out new uber ships because I don't have the time and find it more convenient to use things more easily researched, and generall more accepted.

But, SS, I know what your general point here. It's all good. :)

I don't mean to imply that anything the FKC does military-wise is second rate, but keeping such huge, well-equipped and -trained armies is not a trivial matter and the first thing to be sacrificed to the bean counters is training budgets from some other branch.

I don't mean to imply that anything the FKC does military-wise is second rate, but keeping such huge, well-equipped and -trained armies is not a trivial matter and the first thing to be sacrificed to the bean counters is training budgets from some other branch.

I think you would find that most if not all players in the FKC are quite mindful of things like budgets, logistics, etc... In other words, I haven't seen anyone claim that they have OMG huge wet navy ships, or bazillion man armies.

And, this thread is hopefully used to sort out anything outlandish by either side.

Actually all the Dyellian ships are designed by me, working mostly off real world systems. I would put stats up but it would take me a week to type them up, I can put up stats for the flagship though, and so will after this post.

The ships are usually very fast and heavily armoured, although they are sometimes lacking in weapons (for instance the carriers have dropped planes in order to fit more deck armour). They are also very visible, they have a high profile (due to the pagoda mast) and produce a hell of a lot of smoke.

About half the sailors are veterans of the civil war so the crews are fairly experienced.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Lord Fisher Super Heavy Battleship

Total Displacement: 88,490 Tons
Length: 380 Metres (1247 Feet)
Beam: 48 Metres (157 Feet)
Draft: 9.70 Metres (32 Feet)
Freeboard: 6.30 Metres (21 Feet)

There are also 30 Horizontal Bulkheads and 2 Longitudinal Bulkheads, greatly compartmentalising the ship and meaning that minimal damage will be sustained should a hull breach occur. Furthermore, 'Sandwich' style torpedo bulges have been installed to minimise the effect of such weapons.
A ram has been fitted to the bow to allow the Lord Fisher to use it's immense size to tear enemy shiping in half should a battle be fought close enough.
The Superstructure is lightly constructed and rises 4 decks above the main deck. It is however moderately heavily armoured (detailed later). The Bridge rises a further 2 decks bringing the total height of the superstructure to 8 metres ( 26 Feet). Above the bridge is a 20 metre (66 Feet) tall Pagoda Mast on which all radars and targeters are arranged.

Engines: 8 x Mitsubishi Power Turbine, powering 6 screws, two of which are angled outwards allowing the ship to turn more sharply. The exhaust from these funnels is trunked into 5 funnels. They provide a total of 380,000 HP at the screws.
The Ship has capacity for 160 hours of fuel while traveling at full tilt (5,376 Tons of fuel oil).

Main Armament: 4 x Mk III III/16" 45c turrets. Providing a total of 12 16" guns. In the current configuration each gun is capable of firing 2 RPM (6 RPM per turret). Four magazines are placed, two above the forward engines (the engines run the length of the ship) and two between the aft engines, each holding 60 shells.

Secondary Armament: 10 x II/4" 45 c Mk XVI cannons. These cannons are fixed directly to the deck, although a fibre glass turret strucutre has been erected over them. These guns are capable of 40 rpm. They are positioned 5 to either side of the super structure and are fed from 2 seperate magazines (one for each side), each holding 2,000 rounds of ammunition.

CIWS: 10 50mm ADGM Guns are positioned, 2 near the front turret, two near the 3rd turret and six above the super structure. They provide cover against incoming missiles, planes as well as proving useful against unarmoured vessels.

Spar Torpedoes Spar torpedoes have been fitted to facilitate ramming.

Missiles: 6 THV1 Anti Shipping Missiles are fixed on the super structure, each in an independent launcher. These are the standard Dyelli Beybian anti-shipping missile.
4 Sea Dart Launchers are also affixed to the superstructure. Each launcher is capable of firing two of these SAM missiles per minute. In all, 80 Sea Dart missiles are housed within the top deck of the super structure.

Counter Measures: The ship carries 8 Sea Gnat Chaff dispensers as well as a full ECM suite. A 'Softblade' system has also been installed to mask the engine noise from passive sonar.

Radars, Sonar, Targeters and other Misc. Electronics: Sky Watch, LW08, Type 1030, 4x Eggcup Rangefinder, IOWA Guidance System, Sunvisor, Hawk Screech, USSR 10P, USSR 3, 2x Highpole A IFF, Shotdome GPS, C.E.C. Combat Analysis.

Note: The prescence of 'Sunvisor' allows for the 4" cannons to provide a very effective AA defence, even against modern jet fighters.

Armour: 500 mm (19.7") Belt
200 mm (7.9") Remainder of Hull
300 mm (11.8") Deck
400 mm (15.7") Bridge
300 mm (11.8") Superstructure Roof
100 mm (3.9") Superstructure
300 mm (11.8") Frontal Primary Magazines
300 mm (11.8") Primary Hoists
300 mm (11.8") Secondary Magazines
300 mm (11.8") Secondary Hoists

Note: The rear primary magazines are positioned between two engines and as such further armour was deemed unecessary.

Speed: Max: 46.85 kts. At this speed, the ram causes the bow to dip. It is not recommended the ship travel at above 40 knotts for extended periods of time.
Cruising: 36.01 knotts. This speed is achieved on 4 screws.
In excess to this, facilities have been installed to disconnect the alternator (switch off all electronics), increasing the speed of the vessel markedly. This proceedure has never been tested.

DB: Has the Kriegsmarine officially halted all pirate activity in light of these events?

Yep. They basically indefinantely halted it as soon as the scandal broke. The payrise for naval officers is also associated with a new contract which strictly forbids piratical activity. This hasn't actually been announced though, partly through sheer beaurocratic incompetence. It isn't a secret , anyone who has spoken to a Kriegsmarine officer will know it.

oh and you'd need a very low density alloy to fit 750mm of armour on a hull.

I didn't design the ships so I don't know why they have what they do, so you're going to have to duke it out with Freethinker over that little issue. However, you'll find that he's very seldom incorrect in designing his ships, as he's a maritime design student and all, so if he says that's what's on there I believe him.

However, there are a couple things that should be noted. First is that if one were to compare a trimaran and a single-hulled ship of similar mass, the trimaran would have a shallower draft, which means that it can carry more weight and still have similar capabilities to its single-hulled cousin. Second is that my smallest "battleship", the Fenrir class dreadnaught, displaces 280,000 tons, which means that it's almost 200,000 tons heavier than your ship. If your 80,000 ton ship can manage 400mm of armour anywhere, than my ship can manage 750mm with ease. Also, the armour thickness I put down is an average, if it comes down to combat I'll be figuring out all kinds of variables to determine damage or losses.

EDIT: Btw, I'm going to have to take issue with the speed of your capital ship. There's no way even a trimaran of that displacement could manage 40 knots except when making a short-ranged sprint. Hell, your ship outpaces my destroyers when they're going full-tilt.

SS, It's quite possible for monohulls to exceed 40 knots, which is one of the reasons I never use trimarines. It's something called FASTSHIP. You increase the beam relative to length, give it a deap V shaped bow, shallower draught, and scoop out a section of the hull on the underside of the stern. This greatly retards the formation captive waves, while simultaniously improving stability with the larger beam. In most freighters, captive waves form at 23 knots. If you make the hull extremely narrow (warships) you can manage about 30 before the captive wave begins affecting you. Trimarines squeeze a couple of more knots out. In trials, FASTSHIPS can maintain 40 knots in sea state 7 without any signifigant pitching or captive wave formation, and that was with a freighter design. Combined with waterjets' higher pressure and reduced cavitation, a warship could make 47 knots easy. Chardonay uses FASTSHIP technology in all her warships... it makes for fast, stable gun platforms.

This is RL technology.

Granted, but I haven't heard of fastships until now. However, I suspect that DB's ships are designed along traditional designs.

OK there is nothing unusual about what Chardonay has said. 47 knotts is easily obtainable when you're putting out 380,000 HP. This ship has more than 4x the engine power of the largest battleships in the real world, without being that much larger. What is more, there is no correlation beween small ships and fast size. As you pointed out with the armour, a bigger ship can hold more stuff. Provided you're willing to sacrifice a huge amount of space to engines you can make a big ship go very fast. I can (if I can be bothered) post up some of the line drawings I did while designing this, the engines take up the enitre of the two lower decks of the ship. The only gap is where a magazine has been placed.
Also you will note that I pointed out it is unsafe to drive the ship too fast and that cruising speed is 36 knotts.

If you really want to have a go that's fine but I'll press the point of 750mm.

Oh yes, and the engines in question. The original plan for the Yamoto called for two of them, however she ended up getting 2 smaller ones due to money problems.

There's nothing stopping the ship from mounting that much armour and again, it's an average of what the ship mounts, not consistant across the whole ship.

engine power is irrelevent. or rather, it's not irrelevent, but it's not enough alone. Ships push water out of the way when they move forwards, which creates a 'hole' behind the ship. The faster the ship goes, the larger and deeper the hole. At a certain speed, dictated by the ratio of length to beam, the hole becomes so big that the ship actually falls into the hole, so the prow is far higher than the stern and the keel of the ship is actually pushing forwards against the water. This is called a captive wave, and creates the maximum speed of a warship, not engine power. For freighters, that speed is 23 knots, which is why you will see NO conventional freighter that greatly exceeds that speed. For warships, which tend to be narrower, that speed is about 32 knots, though some go as high as 35. Small warships are narrower, and therfore go faster. Trimarines are basically three destroyer hulls bolted together, they may go as fast as 37 knots, but suffer from major structural weaknesses in the tweenhull area, need to devote more mass to armor than conventional ships because they have more surface area, actually experience more fluid drag because of the larger surface area, and have less room to store equipment and supplies.

yeah I know what a captive wave is, I also know there are ways of minimising the effect. Speeds I have calculated are perhaps a little high as I was working on a static drag value, however I believe that my calculations should hold true until you hit 40 knotts, perhaps 47 as a max speed is slightly excessive, however I am not planning to redo my calculations to build in for every eventuality.

You will note I have only claimed an extra 34% of speed over similarly sized vessels, while increasing engine power by circa 400%. Also note the high speeds safety warning.

JDF B-88
The B-88 is a modernized version of the B-52 with an extended body. Has a crew of six rather than five (Defensive gunner being added in most cases, but six seats in upper cockpit over longer payload area.)

The B-88 is usually deployed with two external hardpoints mounting anti-aircraft missles. Specifically, either the Alconian Autobore (with a 270 off bore) and the Narwal (360 off bore) usually each hardpoint holds eight anti-arcraft missles for a total of sixteen.

The B-88 can carry six to eight of the Boromos Anti-ship missles (four internal and two external in normal outloading)

At present the JDF is using a 3-2 ratio with two out of every five bombers carrying full loads of ASM.

Vrak, were those last deployments Vrakian or JDF?

Here's some info on my radars. I use NPI technology across the board, however it's most going to concern your bombers with my modified APAR-12.

NPI:
The NPI (No-Probability-Intercept) series of radars are a follow-on to the LPI radars of last century. The AN/APG-77 mounted on the F/A-22 is a LPI radar. LPI radars are very hard to detect, as they change frequency and spectrum very quickly, fooling other radars that detect the waves into thinking they are background noise.

While this was fine for that period in time, Moore's Law kicked into action and computing power increased to the point where even these LPI radars could be detected and rendered susceptible to active radar cancellation. To regain the technolgical advantage, NPI radars have been developed with processing powers of several magnitudes greater than LPI radars to generate more complex signal and change frequency/spectrum many times more quickly.

NPI radars have many applications. By building NPI ground radars, anti-radiation missiles are rendered obselete. By building NPI into fighter radars, active radar cancellation technology for the foreseable future (Up to 2020, a decade away) is rendered obselete, RWR on enemy fighters will not give pilots advance warning of semi-active radar guided missiles, and passive homing signals will not be emitted, allowing for greater stealth. With extra space on AWACS availible for more powerful NPI radars, future stealth threats can be countered more effectively.


APAR-12B, which is what my -12C is based off of:
An incredibly advanced radar and computer system first developed for the Mackensen Class, it far surpasses the Aegis system on most other naval vessels. Powerful and flexible radar system that is comprised of four panels that each emit radar waves. If allowed by the horizon, the system can track out to 800 miles (1280 km) and can simultaneously track and identify up to 1392 targets at one time. The system controls missile launched from the long range missile launchers and the system track and guide each individual missile to a individual target for up to 476 targets. If a target is eliminated, missiles are automatically guided to a new target. The system can also control missiles launched from other linked vessels as well and can also act as fire control for gun mounts.

Both a upper-lateral anda lower-lateral array are fitted in order to ensure 360 degree coverage of the airborne theatre Two reserve arrays are also carried. Short-range AS18 Suites are installed to provide back CIWS guidance and close range tracking of multiple targets.

And there's the rub. The FKC hasn't even come close to deploying all of its fleets. Mostly because some players such as Dukratus, Calarca, Rillanon, etc.. are rather busy in real life. Such is the case with rps though.
:)

I'm starting to get back into NS, but it'll be about another week before I can start thinking about RPs. I have to work out damage, casulties and morale from a civil war, remake a whole lot of naval and military stats that got dropped from the old forum by getting too old and never bumped and decide names, dates and places for the battles of the civil war and its combatants.

Long ago, Edolia and myself built the "Titan" guns which were basically a modest refinement on Saddam's long range guns. We even had historical precedence (Paris gun, etc...) but talk about getting a lot of flak.


Heck... I remember those... thats where I first met ya... remember.. there was some fun RPing out the multinational design group for the trimaran BBs. Tho I only use a few of the Trimaran CV variants in my current fleet.

they're part of what I have to remake stats for, like a fool all my stats were on NS, nothing saved as a file on my HDD other than some BMPs and JPGs of my designs, all written stuff was on NS's old forums

Vrak, were those last deployments Vrakian or JDF?

Where? Anyhow, Vrak deploys only for Vrak unless otherwise specified. Alcona is usually the one who deploys JDF forces but he is careful to differentiate between his own and JDF stuff. Other members of the Privy Council can also deploy JDF assets if I'm not mistaken.

Heck... I remember those... thats where I first met ya... remember.. there was some fun RPing out the multinational design group for the trimaran BBs. Tho I only use a few of the Trimaran CV variants in my current fleet.

they're part of what I have to remake stats for, like a fool all my stats were on NS, nothing saved as a file on my HDD other than some BMPs and JPGs of my designs, all written stuff was on NS's old forums

I might have some of that stuff saved somewhere...

As well, many of our FKC players are quite busy. It's only life. Too bad a guy can't get paid playing NS. :)

Hamptonshire: Yes, I'm targetting Baker

Hamptonshire and SS: Could you guys slow down your fleet movements please? For crying out loud, it would be nice to actually mabye make a damn response before all of your fleets suddenly got reinforcements without any reaction on our part.

I told you two not to pull this BS OMG fleets coming out of my ass stuff. And that's exactly what you're doing here.

Actually, in Admiral Tzu's speech that spelled out the original terms for us leaving in peace, he said that the deal was on so long as the 4th and 5th Imperial Fleets had not met up with the 6th. Just because covert negotiations have begun does not mean those deployments are going to stop, especially considering your government's... less than welcoming attitude. With the slightly accelerated pace we've been RPing at, one or two RL days to spot them with sats isn't all that bad.

As for Hamptonshire, I believe he's in the Atlantic, so it's easier for him to call in reinforcements when necessary.

EDIT: I stand corrected, you had three RL days, maybe even four to spot two rather large fleets steaming towards the Klatch. And Hamptonshire has only stated that his two extra fleets are on the way.

Actually, in Admiral Tzu's speech that spelled out the original terms for us leaving in peace, he said that the deal was on so long as the 4th and 5th Imperial Fleets had not met up with the 6th. Just because covert negotiations have begun does not mean those deployments are going to stop, especially considering your government's... less than welcoming attitude. With the slightly accelerated pace we've been RPing at, one or two RL days to spot them with sats isn't all that bad.

As for Hamptonshire, I believe he's in the Atlantic, so it's easier for him to call in reinforcements when necessary.

EDIT: I stand corrected, you had three RL days, maybe even four to spot two rather large fleets steaming towards the Klatch. And Hamptonshire has only stated that his two extra fleets are on the way.

You mean 3-4 days seeing ships leave your home port and suddenly arriving 2 hours away from your first one? Yeah, I'm going to say where your fleets are when I make a post. Listen, in case this isn't clear yet, we have sats and ships all over the damn place. I don't want to say "My fleet suddenly popped in front of your fleet and your fleet is X miles away". That would be like me calling the shots. Why didn't you make posts indicating how far they are as they drew closer? That's what I did with Drak and he had no problem with it. As well, since we didn't state ICly that we are watching your nation so we wouldn't know - but we certainly would know if they came within the outskirts of the Southern Klatchian Sea.

And what the hell does the Atlantic have to do with anything? The Klatch is not a continent based on real life earth so perhaps the Atlantic is some ocean very far away. At the most, we (the FKC) can surmise that you guys are south east of us, since you didn't come via the Dark sea nor come north of the coast of North Germania.

As well, it looks like we need a brief list of where everyone's stuff is and possibly a map.

Finally, some info on knots and statue miles for reference:


Knots Versus Miles per Hour

Knots is how the speed of aircraft and boats is measured. Both miles per hour and knots is a speed which is the number of units of distance that is covered for a certain amount of time.

1 knot = 1 nautical mile per hour = 6076 feet per hour
1 mph =1 mile per hour = 5280 feet per hour

For example, if a train is moving at 50 mph on a track, how would you represent this speed in knots (even though trains are not usually represented in knots)?

To do this problem easily, one can multiply the number of miles per hour that the train is moving by the number of feet per hour that = 1 mph. this converts the speed to a distance traveled in one hour.
That is,


(50 mph)(5280 feet/ mph)=264,000 feet
Now, divide that distance by the number of feet in a nautical mile (6076).

(264,000 feet)/(6076 feet/ knot) = 43.4 knots

20-08-2004, 5:36 AM #115
Scandavian States
JoltBot Shoeshiner

Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: New Copenhagen, Scandavian States
Posts: 2,884 [Time to use the carrot and stick method.]

4th Imperial Fleet Base, West Galicia Isle

…Crews, you may man your boats. Dismissed.” The only response was the sound of over 160,000 pairs of boots clicking together at the same time and then pounding over blacktop and metal to man their ships.


Today, 9:29 AM #139
Scandavian States
JoltBot Shoeshiner

Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: New Copenhagen, Scandavian States
Posts: 2,889 With the two new fleets linked up on the SUPERCET network and the extra security those provided, Fleet Admiral Dae Kim could now relax somewhat. Her only serious worry was still her allies' fleets; they weren't in as secure of a position as hers were. She turned to her FCO and said, "Signal the Hamptonshire and Pacific Northwestern fleets, request that they reform on our flanks, our combined AA should be enough to overwhelm the FKC bombers if they should attempt an attack."


Well, SS, it seems that we only had 2 days (since today is the 22nd of August), and your two fleets managed to zoom all the way from your home ports to a position that makes good old Admiral Kim happy. I bolded the posting time.

I have the 19th on my time stamp, so that's what I'm going by. And again, given the speed on the RP, I'm assuming that this is a bit faster than real time.

So? Does it suddenly make it an extra day? It's merely a matter of time zones if you are claiming the 19th since then that would make "today" for you August 21st. And yes, given the whole idea of "time" on NS, events here happen quicker than real life - depending on the story. But, I see it as more turn based in which major external events (such as fleet movements) should allow someone to respond before rushing ahead.

I stand corrected on Hamptonshire, but the whole point I'm making is this: stop rushing all your fleets before we can post. Does it not make sense that you would have encountered something before your 2 fleets reinforced the first one SS? Please extend us that courtesy since we had the OMG FLEETS MAGICALLY APPEAR happen already with other rpers.

Just one point just where exactly is the klatch? i know it entirely fictional but IIRC the artic oceon was mentioned at soem point...

which according to crookfur's rough and ready oceon based locator system would put you soemwhere in the North atlantic: north sector. The system is a very basic idea based on the atlantic, pacifc and indian oceons each split into northa nd south and then each of those 6 areas split into 9 sector, each sector has the pontential to be really quiet enourmous ie NA:N can cover all the way from an NS shetland islands all the way to the NS artic pole. Due to it's vagueness it easily accomdates entire fictional continents i merely use it to give soem rough idea of locations it doesn't actually give travel times or anything...

Anyway...

the crookfur group should eb abut a day behind the slowest and furtherest back units of any allies

Crookfur: here's a map (http://www.freewebs.com/klatchia/atlas.htm) but in regards to other nations and regions, we are only sure about with the region to the south of us. As well, our "Arctic" ocean may not necessarily correspond with the RL one.

it doesn't have to but the fact that it is named the Artic sea implies it lies close to the artic...

Okay. Perhaps I need to take a bit of a breather but I just thought it would be kinda nice for the opposition (OMP and allies) to count off the miles as they drew closer just to allow everyone (well, as humanly possible) to get a word in edgewise. I thought that would add to the tension. Ships suddenly appearing doesn't really do it.

Now, in the interests of fairness, perhaps we should quickly detail where all our stuff is at now.

1) with Hamp, my two small Guardian fleets are about 100 nautical miles north of his task force Baker. Baker is, if I'm not mistaken, is going back to rejoin the reunified 11th fleet - which is "located at a position 750 NM south-southwest of DB (from the very farthest southern tip of DB)."

2) I have one hunter/killer type 2 group that left Jiggady - but from the eastern part. So they will take a while to get around the reefs - of which Jiggady is famous for. Most likely, they can hook up with you Ozarka.

3) I'll get more exact numbers shortly, but several batteries of cruise missiles and AA stuff is along the DB coast, 50 km east of Cyro.

4) Bombers in Alexigrad are ready to go. Bomber in the Vrakian corridor are getting ready.

5) Two projection fleets are far away bothering Drakonia. The 1st projection fleet is returning from aborted CSF wargames and now about a day's journey from their home base.

6) Guardian fleet #10 is 1500 nautical miles out, floating around uselessly. :) Basically, my guardian fleets try to cover all the Klatch, which is a tough task. The OMP and pals have seen 3 such fleets and might see more (maybe 2) coming from Jiggady's west coast. But that's probably it unless we have to start pulling in more. We actually have a lot of Guardian fleets but remember, they are spread out over a vast area and manned by reservist/militia - not professionals found in the regular Vrakian navy.

I should add that supply ships would be a much easier target for my guardian fleets. As well, we would mostly be contributing lots of airpower rather than ships. If one goes by UN rankings in terms of replacing/making equipment, it would be pretty hard to beat the FKC - since 4 nations are in the top 1000 in terms of largest defense force per capita. And some score much higher in other catergories. Just something to keep in mind is all.

Finally, all remarks I make ICly are just that, IC. They are not intended to OOCly bother you - although I kinda like making some folks riled up :). I try to play Vrak as realistically in IC "mode" as I can - which means I try to see things from my character's viewpoint, coupled with their baggage we call history.

DA's single freighter is roughly 70-80 miles off the Dyellian coast. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong here NG) that North Germania's fleet should be very close by. I think you are there too Crookfur?

Hamptonshire's moved his fleet back to my position. I've been saying a thousand miles, but it's been a quess. My fleets are on the SE periphery on the blue and white on the FKC website.

Okay. Perhaps I need to take a bit of a breather but I just thought it would be kinda nice for the opposition (OMP and allies) to count off the miles as they drew closer just to allow everyone (well, as humanly possible) to get a word in edgewise. I thought that would add to the tension. Ships suddenly appearing doesn't really do it.

Now, in the interests of fairness, perhaps we should quickly detail where all our stuff is at now.

1) with Hamp, my two small Guardian fleets are about 100 nautical miles north of his task force Baker. Baker is, if I'm not mistaken, is going back to rejoin the reunified 11th fleet - which is "located at a position 750 NM south-southwest of DB (from the very farthest southern tip of DB)."

2) I have one hunter/killer type 2 group that left Jiggady - but from the eastern part. So they will take a while to get around the reefs - of which Jiggady is famous for. Most likely, they can hook up with you Ozarka.

3) I'll get more exact numbers shortly, but several batteries of cruise missiles and AA stuff is along the DB coast, 50 km east of Cyro.

4) Bombers in Alexigrad are ready to go. Bomber in the Vrakian corridor are getting ready.

5) Two projection fleets are far away bothering Drakonia. The 1st projection fleet is returning from aborted CSF wargames and now about a day's journey from their home base.

6) Guardian fleet #10 is 1500 nautical miles out, floating around uselessly. :) Basically, my guardian fleets try to cover all the Klatch, which is a tough task. The OMP and pals have seen 3 such fleets and might see more (maybe 2) coming from Jiggady's west coast. But that's probably it unless we have to start pulling in more. We actually have a lot of Guardian fleets but remember, they are spread out over a vast area and manned by reservist/militia - not professionals found in the regular Vrakian navy.

I should add that supply ships would be a much easier target for my guardian fleets. As well, we would mostly be contributing lots of airpower rather than ships. If one goes by UN rankings in terms of replacing/making equipment, it would be pretty hard to beat the FKC - since 4 nations are in the top 1000 in terms of largest defense force per capita. And some score much higher in other catergories. Just something to keep in mind is all.

Finally, all remarks I make ICly are just that, IC. They are not intended to OOCly bother you - although I kinda like making some folks riled up :). I try to play Vrak as realistically in IC "mode" as I can - which means I try to see things from my character's viewpoint, coupled with their baggage we call history.

1) with Hamp, my two small Guardian fleets are about 100 nautical miles north of his task force Baker. Baker is, if I'm not mistaken, is going back to rejoin the reunified 11th fleet - which is "located at a position 750 NM south-southwest of DB (from the very farthest southern tip of DB)."
1) Task Force Baker is rejoining the unified 11th Fleet which is currently heading 250 NM further south to meet up with SS's Expeditionary Fleet. Coming for a up from the south to meet up with the 11th Fleet is the 4th Fleet. Arriving from the southeast within the next 10-20 hours will be the 9th Fleet.

Also like to point out that Hamptonshire is in the top 1000 in several manufacturing and warfare based rankings.

DA's single freighter is roughly 70-80 miles off the Dyellian coast. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong here NG) that North Germania's fleet should be very close by. I think you are there too Crookfur?


If the freighter part of the RP goes forward (which to be honest i would ahve liked to see before all this bluster) then it should be around about there. Since rondia's freighter has been removed i'll assume the freighter(ok Q-ship) is steaming out of the area at a nice 23knots... unless of course we want a spark on the dry kindling in which case soemone should try pirating it...

I fully respect your desire to get some sort of realistic time and space movement in it does make thign smore fun.

Crookfur: Yeah, I believe that storyline somehow got buried. Mind you, the stuff with the Der Angstian freighter is still going on. Is your Q ship a part of that?

Hamptonshire: I'm not trying to flex my muscles, well, not too much in regards to the rankings. It's just that when I see you, SS, and other astronomical fleet and aircraft numbers and yet compare rankings, I have to shake my head. I use the rankings as a gauge to get a rough idea of the strength of a country.

The last time the defence ranking came out it looked like this:

381 - The Glorious Kingdom of Vrak
505 - The United Socialist Republics of Dyelli Beybi
724 - The Highly Autocratic Empire of Kyzyl-Orda
771 - The Super Happy Fun Empire of Dontgonearthere
1101 - The Glorious Imperium of Dukratus
1131 - The Barbarian Hordes of North Germania

And the OMP nations involved in this affair were this:

10080 - Scandavian States
11282 - Doujin
4659 - Hamptonshire
37856 - Pacific Northwesteria

Now, I realize that this ranking is the only indicator. But, it gives a rough idea of what you're up against in overall military might.

Yeah, well I know I can afford my military because I keep fairly accurate budgets. As far as I'm concerned the UN rankings are faulty, primarily because not even a tenth of the nations in NS actually RP and of those that do not even a quarter of that tenth acknowledge each other. Stuff like that is fine for comparing regional power, but beyond that it has serious limitations.

2) I have one hunter/killer type 2 group that left Jiggady - but from the eastern part. So they will take a while to get around the reefs - of which Jiggady is famous for. Most likely, they can hook up with you Ozarka.
Um, is that hunter/killer group a surface or submarine group? Cause I got a group of subs just sitting around off the coast of Rouge Jiggady, and my 2 surface fleets+subs currently near the Klatch are sitting just south-southwest of DB's minefields (however far away from DB's coast that is).

Sorry, they are subs:

1 Sub - Dolphin DELTA IV
1 Sub - Project 949A Antey / Oscar II
2 Subs - Sierra class Attack II
2 Subs - Shuka-B Akula class II

Ranks are good for an idea, but what matters are the A) genuinely good calculators used by RPers, B) detailed budgets, and/or C) widely accepted RP budgets/funding.

Jast as UN membership has next to no impact in NS RPing, so do the UN rankings.

What I look at primarily are the calculators, and they still show you as very hefty. Those 'astronomical' numbers you mention are the result of months of detailed budget crunching (I quite enjoy that), dozens of RP posts and threads, etc. These ships and numbers didn't just pop up today, the ground work has been used, and accepted, for some time now.

Well, I don't want to turn this into an argument of "who accepts what" since I like to use the calculators as well. I guess under my system I can't quite see the logistical support, but oh well.

Onwards to the rp!

Well, I don't want to turn this into an argument of "who accepts what" since I like to use the calculators as well. I guess under my system I can't quite see the logistical support, but oh well.

Onwards to the rp!

I'd be quite happy to describe the logisitcal support for the Royal Armed Force at a time after this RP.

I did that for a while until my nation grew too large, and there were just too many numbers to crunch, although I still have most of it on my NS notepad document. i.e. By April 9th, I had accumulated a $400,342,475,000 military budget surplus. Nice complete list of arms dealers, too, with the units to buy from each one. Too bad all of those were off the old forums... :(

I did that for a while until my nation grew too large, and there were just too many numbers to crunch, although I still have most of it on my NS notepad document. i.e. By April 9th, I had accumulated a $400,342,475,000 military budget surplus. Nice complete list of arms dealers, too, with the units to buy from each one. Too bad all of those were off the old forums... :(

I still do it because I have a passion for macroeconomics and governmental budgets.

hey Vark you forgot me i was sitting at 709th last time i looked...
(just out interest is there anwhere you can see a list of recent UN ratings?)

As for the freighter thing i think myself and rondia sort of by passed that. its really quite enjoyable but since i rerally don't have anything to do with magic in my nation i think i'll avoid and avoid having to invent a paranormal investogation branch to bless my ships agaisnt such things...

hey Vark you forgot me i was sitting at 709th last time i looked...
(just out interest is there anwhere you can see a list of recent UN ratings?)

As for the freighter thing i think myself and rondia sort of by passed that. its really quite enjoyable but since i rerally don't have anything to do with magic in my nation i think i'll avoid and avoid having to invent a paranormal investogation branch to bless my ships agaisnt such things...

Crookfut: then you would be 3rd if you were in our region. :) I didn't include you because you don't have a huge fleet off our doorstep. Sunset records the rankings for some folks but I think the best way is to record it yourself. I dunno, maybe there is some XML feed that a person can access somehow.

Pacific Northwesteria:

1) Just to be absolutely clear, all conversations here are OOC [Out of character]

2) I am getting rather annoyed at your rambling longwinded posts that mix up IC and OOC. Please stop doing it. It makes it hard for me to offer a strict IC rebuttal.

3) I will attempt to address your "argument" once you write more clearly and concisely. I have neither the time nor patience to unscramble a dog's breakfast.

I'm going to respond to Pacifica Northwestria's statement here, since it seems to be OOC

Piracy concerns the OMP. Also, with a little deduction, one can prove that it does in fact involve the outside world.
1. DB, in his original post, makes it obvious that the pirates weren't targeting DB ships, they were targeting foreign ships.
2. Other FKC nations have said that they had never had a problem with DB piracy (as a means of trying to cool the jets of the OMP... litterally)
3. Thus, the piracy was being committed against ships outside of the Klatch, thus an issue of nations outside of the Klatch.
Anyone who can find a flaw in this logic, please respond... coherently, this time, please.


1. IC the Vaadians assume DB's statement means ships within their territorial waters. Ilek-Vaad also reserves the right to seize foreign ships in it's territorial waters, as does IRL the USA, Canada, UK, Russia....etc
2. IC if these nations say that they have not had a problem then Ilek-Vaad believes them without proof to the contrary.
3.Ilek-Vaad still has not seen proof of any actual piracy committted. If the OMP is going to start massing warships they should a.) provide evidence for their actions or b.) state that they do not care about regional or national territory and will act as they please.

I cannot respond to your post in the IC thread, most of the information is OOC and the people of Ilek-Vaad cannot possibly know about it and their government cannot respond to it.

Piracy concerns the OMP. Also, with a little deduction, one can prove that it does in fact involve the outside world.
1. DB, in his original post, makes it obvious that the pirates weren't targeting DB ships, they were targeting foreign ships.
2. Other FKC nations have said that they had never had a problem with DB piracy (as a means of trying to cool the jets of the OMP... litterally)
3. Thus, the piracy was being committed against ships outside of the Klatch, thus an issue of nations outside of the Klatch.
Anyone who can find a flaw in this logic, please respond... coherently, this time, please.


For crying out loud, PN, keep the pure OOC posts in this thread and stop clogging up the other one. It detracts from the story. And with your OOC blurting of what your intentions are, it’s starting to ruin it. I don’t want to know what you and the OMP will do, OOCly. I want to be able to figure it out Icly from Ic clues that you give out, okay. When you read a novel, do you see at the bottom: “Okay, character A was actually lying and he’s really going to do this instead of that”. Surprise me. Surprise others. Stop giving away the entire damn plot (or at least your actions) with your OOC chatter. This OOC thread, at least the way I view OOC threads, is to has out any misundertandings, like where ships are, the stats, etc..

1. Do you mean the very first post?


30-07-2004, 9:59 AM #1
Dyelli Beybi
JoltBot Shoeshiner


Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Federated Klatchian Coast
Posts: 2,868 Dyelli Beybi commits more acts of piracy

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After more confirmed reports of Dyellian Naval vessels commiting acts of piracy at Sea, the Kriegsmarine finally took deigned to answer the growing calls as to what was going on in the Dyellian armed forces.

"We have a full right to take money and goods from the unmenschliche Geschöpfe weniger gültig als Menschen" he declared, in this case indicating all foreigners, "This is not theft. This is taxation. Dyelli Beybi is maintaining a very large minefield for the protection of shipping. We have a full right to charge for access to our waters."

The spokesman declined to comment on accusations all acts of piracy were being carried out in International waters, or indeed that Dyelli Beybi had been laying mines outside of it's territorial waters. At the moment losses through piracy by the Kriegsmarine are thought to have cost the International community nearly $20 Million.


All you Icly would know is the statement in quotes. So he’s targetting foreigners. So what? Which foreigners? All foreigners or a select few? And besides, if you believe the DB claim, they are obviously playing a game of semantics – that is, they are subsituting “piracy” for “taxation”. That’s kinda the whole point. They want to cover up a less than respectable practice with another word. Duh.

2. Icly, Vrak has never had a problem with pirates at all. Icly, for all their sneakiness, Dyelli Beybi is quite smart. They share a land border with Vrak and could logically guess what would happen if they decided to mess with our merchant marine. So, what we Icly said is true. Whether your nation believes our claim or not is a different story.

3. Well, to make the roleplay work, someone has to volunteer to be the helpless victim while DB plays the role of the bloodthirsty pirate. And all I’ve seen are two people willing to play victim (Der Angst and Crookfur with one ship apiece), some polite warnings from others (TEO, Weyr, etc…) and a whole lot of freaking out from the OMP. I know it feels good to be the “good” guy, PN. As Wilt Chamberlain said “Nobody roots for Goliath”.

In keeping with what DB said in his #1 post:

After more confirmed reports of Dyellian Naval vessels commiting acts of piracy at Sea, the Kriegsmarine finally took deigned to answer the growing calls as to what was going on in the Dyellian armed forces.

The spokesman declined to comment on accusations all acts of piracy were being carried out in International waters, or indeed that Dyelli Beybi had been laying mines outside of it's territorial waters. At the moment losses through piracy by the Kriegsmarine are thought to have cost the International community nearly $20 Million.

Which means this: piracy has been committed – but obviously it’s a backstory to set up the rp. Again, the Kriegsmarine is covering it up by playing semantics. So far in the other thread, the only “act of piracy” was the Battlecruiser D.B.P.S. Brandenburg (Dyelli Beybi) going after the Diversified Collectivism (Der Angst). Crookfur also placed a juicy target (the H.P. Ilovekraftcheese) but that story seems to be faltering a bit.

Is piracy an international concern? Absolutely – in RL and on NS. Icly, is the OMP the right organization to combat it? Icly, I think they have lost some of their shine due to their less than tactful approach towards the FKC. Icly, Vrak is looking to damage the credibility as much as possible from the four main players - Doujin, SS, Hamptonshire, and you. Oh no. I gave away my intentions. Pretend you didn't see that, okay?

Here’s why I am also a bit annoyed with you, PN. I get the impression that you are trying to spell things out for me like I don’t understand what’s going on. Well, guess what chief, I do get it. You see, I know that Dyelli is the “bad” guy here and that the OMP is trying very hard to be a knight in shining armour [“save the world from pirates”]. I’m trying very hard not to look closely at your OOC comments as to what you and quite possibly the OMP will do and trying very hard to only focus on the IC worldview. This is why Vrak, Icly, believes that some of the members are belligerent since, well, 400 ships come riding in without saying why and that no diplomatic channel was pursued first. Again, you guys made a pretty big blunder and are trying to cover it up by saying I’m threatening you. Guess what? Icly, I am threatening you – but the threats came after your big blunder and not before.

Again, don’t give away what you will do in OOC. Keep it an IC surprise.

i think my allaince mates may well have noticed this but i'm not entirely happy with the way some things have gone in this RP ( ie actually waiting for DB to attack the HP. Ilovekraftcheese, or that freighter carrying a consignment of T-7s would have improved things cosniderably).

but then again we are already commited to things as they currently stand.
Perhaps to drive things forward some direct evidence of DB actions could be discover? Either soemthing recovered by the freighter/Q-ship ie: video footage of DB forces firing on and then boarding other freighters (this does not actually have to be actual footage but some very clever crookfur intel fakery). Alternatively an actual attack on the shortly to arrive crookfur task group which could be an escorted freighter convoy.

just some ideas to try and drive this forward.

you know... I didn't understand much of the end of that message...

I'm curious Vrak, are your leaders such idiots that they don't know the difference between a Maritime Exclusion Zone and an Economic Exclusion Zone? Actually, I'm wondering if they even know what an Economic Exclusion Zone is, because they certainly don't seem to have a firm concept of what that entales.

you know... I didn't understand much of the end of that message...

true i suppose i should edit it i get bit carried away with things at times...

I don't think the difference between economic exclusion zone and maritime exclusion zone are the issue. I think it's the large number of foreign warships showing up to combat alleged piracy.

Since both economic exclusion zone, and maritime exclusion zone are RL terms that have been worked out in accordance with the international courts and the UN that applying them to NS legal matters is moot.

For instance, Ilek-Vaad claims waters 100 miles from it's coasts to be territorial waters, in reality they operate it as a maritime exclusion i.e. ships within that zone had better be darn sure that they have Ilek-Vaad's permission. Most of this zone is also an economic exclusion zone, only Ilek-Vaad's 2 international ports are open to foreign shipping. Obviously Ilek-Vaad's 'territorial' waters do not fit in any RL classifications under international law, it's more a zone of 'sovereign control' that is controlled more like any land based sovereign territory. For the leaders of Ilek-Vaad 'economic exclusion zones' and such terms are greek to them. Vaadian law makes no mention of them and only defines territory, either land or sea, to be sovereign and under the jurisdiction of the Republican Council.

I also would point out that if you had any goal other than trying to humiliate Vrak about his 'lack' of knowledge of maritime zones , you would furnish YOUR understanding of these zones and attempt to see how they fit into the NS world instead of chiding others on their ignorance of such matters.

Actually, I have in a related thread on KIST. However, I will do so again

Maritime Exclusion Zone: This is territorial waters, foreign ships who enter these waters without a previous understanding or permission can be engaged after due warning, although warning isn't really required for warships.

Economic Exclusion Zone: All this means is that the nation who claims the waters within this zone has exlusive rights to the natural resources there (oil, methane, fish, etc.) The only real restrictions it places are on fishing and mining vessels, nations do not have the right to demand anything of foreign ships so long as they do not attempt to collect natural resources within these waters.

EDIT: It should be noted that economic zones typically run further out than economic zones, although this is not always the case and as always the zones can be selectively enforced.

Wow you guys are pedantic.


You know, as a nation I see one rather large issue which the pirate hunters have seriously seemed to mess up on; consideration. Here we have an entire region of nations which you have managed to offend by failing to mention that you were going to sail into their waters to combat a percieved problem... this lack of communication has seriously damaged affairs and made the issue alot harder for everyone involved.

"But it's international waters" I hear you say? So? If a fleet were to park itself near my nations I would have serious issues with it myself. I probably wouldn't react like Vrak has but I would, as a military nation, become paraniod as to their intentions. A simple comuncation could have stopped that.

But meh, I'm only marginally involved and as far as I'm concerned I've had to get involved in order to resolve a problem which has filtered down to me through the actions of this affair. As it stands my nations doesn't care about piracy because we've traded with a couple nations in this region in the past and we have not been attacked... so thats where I stand.

I won't say this OOC more then once, so I'll leave it at that.

*snorts* Vrak would find a reason to react the way he has even if we had sent a not ahead of time that went Hi, we're going to drop by later, hope you don't mind.

And frankly, I wouldn't care overly much if someone parked ships outside my territorial waters, just so long as there wasn't any demonstrated hostile intent and they stayed the hell in international waters. So no, I don't have any measureable amount of sympathy for Vrak's position.

Actually, I have in a related thread on KIST. However, I will do so again

Maritime Exclusion Zone: This is territorial waters, foreign ships who enter these waters without a previous understanding or permission can be engaged after due warning, although warning isn't really required for warships.

Economic Exclusion Zone: All this means is that the nation who claims the waters within this zone has exlusive rights to the natural resources there (oil, methane, fish, etc.) The only real restrictions it places are on fishing and mining vessels, nations do not have the right to demand anything of foreign ships so long as they do not attempt to collect natural resources within these waters.

EDIT: It should be noted that economic zones typically run further out than economic zones, although this is not always the case and as always the zones can be selectively enforced.

Excellent. Now we need to ask, how, or even if these zones apply in the case of Klatchian waters? Obviously in NS Regional waters will most likely have a combination of these overlapping zones and probably have a different classification altogether, as in Haven's waters. I know for a fact that I, SS and several other nations would become very agitated if any nation began sending warships to hover within 1,000 miles of Haven's Regional boundary. We just need to look at it in that light, that is where Ilek-Vaad is coming from when they maker their calls on this whole topic.

Actually, I wouldn't become upset until someone started violating those waters. Allanea was a special case, but since I now IGNORE him it doesn't matter.

I don't personally believe that ;) but okay. It still stands to reason that a nation that is experiencing no 'pirate' attacks, and has no inkling that an international forces of several hundred war vessels are heading to hover just outside of their Regions main waterway with the intention of stopping 'pirates' may be a little anxious? Especially seeing as how no one contacted them about it? It is also reasonable to assume that 400+ war vessels would disrupt trade , there are few ships captains that would take a heading into waters swarming with warships, no matter what their stated intentions are, assuming someone had stated their intentions in the first place.......... It's not a matter of anyone being stupid, it's just both sides reacting 'logically' to different ends of the same situation.

i think my allaince mates may well have noticed this but i'm not entirely happy with the way some things have gone in this RP ( ie actually waiting for DB to attack the HP. Ilovekraftcheese, or that freighter carrying a consignment of T-7s would have improved things cosniderably).

but then again we are already commited to things as they currently stand.
Perhaps to drive things forward some direct evidence of DB actions could be discover? Either soemthing recovered by the freighter/Q-ship ie: video footage of DB forces firing on and then boarding other freighters (this does not actually have to be actual footage but some very clever crookfur intel fakery). Alternatively an actual attack on the shortly to arrive crookfur task group which could be an escorted freighter convoy.

just some ideas to try and drive this forward.

Actually DB isn't going to attack anything with some enormous fleet sitting off their doorstep. The Kriegsmarine do actually have some intelligence. What is more DB isn't going to attack a Klatchian vessel or vessel destined for a Klatchian port as this would make the rest of Klatch upset.

SS, insulting Vrak isn't going to get you anywhere except into an OOC argument, which I think you will find never helps move RP forward. The fact that you know the difference between a maritime exclusion zone and an economic one is completely moot. Vrak is saying they are alarmed by 400+ warships.
Now as much as you keep saying that shouldn't be a problem, can you actually imagine say China not being worried if the US parked 400+ warships off their coast? No, they'd start warming up the nuclear missiles. They wouldn't just sit there and say 'oh well they're not in our waters yet, we'll just act like they're not there'.

Now I shall move onto my third point, which is all this knight is shining armour business. Things in the real world are never black and white. This isn't starwars with the evil Empire and whatnot. Likewise I think you will find, if you've been paying attention to the IC that things are all a murky shade of grey.

If you've been paying attention to the IC that things are all a murky shade of grey.

Of course it's a shade of grey as far as I'm concerned, were it not for Vraks willing to compensate my nation I would have been out of pocket because some pirate hunters can't communicate properly.

Meanwhile Iuthia itself has been trading for some time with both Vrak and Dyelli Beybi without any pirate issues itself (I assume, I mean... afterall, trading with Dyelli Beybi probably stops that, or at least trading within the region.)

OOC I know it's going on... but IC I have a limited amount of information and given that information I don't see much reason for concern.

S.S. considering the nature of the Klatchian Government you have overlaping State claims and Federal Claims to Military Exclusion zones. In most cases the states actually 'set' them...but the Privy Council decides how/why to inforce them using the JDF.

Obviously, the Privy Council and the JDF were willing to allow you to pirate hunt with little interference as the Landgravine noted. However, the OMP seems to have come with sledgehammers to kill the pirates and found them hidding.

I would say that things have horribly degenerated. The OMP is now looking at starting a naval war with Vrak. Which would lead to a naval war with the entire Klatch. In reality it would be a waste of resources from both sides, and the OMP would have the questionable reality of trying to do what?

Invade the Klatch?
Destroy a huge chunk of the Klatchian Navy excluding the D.B. navy? (which would only strengthen the position of the pirate officers within the D.B. navy)

Am I the only one here who sees that due to several IC manuvers that the OMP appears ready for a naval war with everyone but the pirates?

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Piracy on Iuthian vessels would mean the Kriegsmarine would be shooting themselves in the foot in more ways than 1. Attacks would have been kept on shipping that was just passing by, not that actually heading for Klatch. Pirates in the traditional sense might have, but these aren't the traditional sort of pirates.

Actually DB isn't going to attack anything with some enormous fleet sitting off their doorstep. The Kriegsmarine do actually have some intelligence. What is more DB isn't going to attack a Klatchian vessel or vessel destined for a Klatchian port as this would make the rest of Klatch upset.

SS, insulting Vrak isn't going to get you anywhere except into an OOC argument, which I think you will find never helps move RP forward. The fact that you know the difference between a maritime exclusion zone and an economic one is completely moot. Vrak is saying they are alarmed by 400+ warships.
Now as much as you keep saying that shouldn't be a problem, can you actually imagine say China not being worried if the US parked 400+ warships off their coast? No, they'd start warming up the nuclear missiles. They wouldn't just sit there and say 'oh well they're not in our waters yet, we'll just act like they're not there'.

Now I shall move onto my third point, which is all this knight is shining armour business. Things in the real world are never black and white. This isn't starwars with the evil Empire and whatnot. Likewise I think you will find, if you've been paying attention to the IC that things are all a murky shade of grey.

I don't blame you :)

And I do agree with the points being made by the various klatch nations, i think soem people within the OMP really need to read "the hunt for red october" again. To back down might involve some loss of face but even if we do go right ahead for a war we would still lose face and potentially a lot morebesides. Of course if you really want a huge war...

I don't blame you :)

And I do agree with the points being made by the various klatch nations, i think soem people within the OMP really need to read "the hunt for red october" again. To back down might involve some loss of face but even if we do go right ahead for a war we would still lose face and potentially a lot morebesides. Of course if you really want a huge war...

Said by the only person who attempted a reasonable 'solution' to the problem.

Set out Q-ships and sink a few enemy warships then go from there...

Of course I have a Q-ship fleet, so maybe I am a bit biased. I'd play with yours but I have no IC reason to do so...

If you'll reread my post, I insulted Vrak's leaders, not the player behind Vrak. I assume the player knows the difference. And we aren't starting anything, if there are any shots fired at all the FKC will be the first to fire them. As for the reinforcements, those are a direct result of Vrak's piss poor IC attitude.

If you'll reread my post, I insulted Vrak's leaders, not the player behind Vrak. I assume the player knows the difference. And we aren't starting anything, if there are any shots fired at all the FKC will be the first to fire them. As for the reinforcements, those are a direct result of Vrak's piss poor IC attitude.

That may have been written as an insult to Vrak's IC leadership but it reads like an insult to TPB Vrak.

Said by the only person who attempted a reasonable 'solution' to the problem.

Set out Q-ships and sink a few enemy warships then go from there...

Of course I have a Q-ship fleet, so maybe I am a bit biased. I'd play with yours but I have no IC reason to do so...

Actually the Q-ship likely would have died as DB was using a battle criuser after all but then that would ahve been an excuse...

As for the reinforcements, those are a direct result of Vrak's piss poor IC attitude.

HAhahahahaahaha

SS: believe me, I know the difference between IC and OOC. In other words, I know that any insults you hurl at me Icly are just at my leaders and not me the player. Basically, it takes quite a bit to get me annoyed. Living overseas for a number of years tends to thicken the skin.

Now, as the player, I didn't bother checking out the difference between maritime and economic zones. But, it doesn't really matter since we (Vrak and the rest of the FKC) can define it however we want. In other words, there is no international body that everyone necessarily recognizes. It's nice to bring in real life examples, and I thank you for that. But, does the RL example necessarily translate well into NS? It depends.

Icly, Vrak doesn't like "international" bodies running around telling everyone how to behave. If everyone would leave everyone else alone we feel (ICly) that would be a better way of conducting business. As well, Vrak's history of reaching out and trying to be an international good guy met with failure. We hosted the World Court to diffuse the Christofi/Menelmacar standoff but Menelmacar refused to attend - which resulted in insulting our honour. We tried to help out with the NCWC (by Ur an Ass) but that also wasn't too successful. And the long drawn out negotiations at Nekoa Bay further cemented our IC belief that the world is inhabited by fools. Plus an invasion by a mad AI which resulted in widespread destruction of the Klatch has contributed to us being even more wary of outsiders and now there are growing anti-robot feelings in Vrak. Of course, this means that religious elements in Vrak, which were once banned, are now gaining rapid influence. Most likely, Vrak just might turn into a fanatical religious state.

The IC actions of the OMP hasn't helped matters at all. Your excuse for reinforcements only fuels our IC belief that you want to invade and not hunt for pirates. As Ilek Vaad said, both sides are reacting logically to how they see the situation.

I do something like this when playing Vrak; if IC events were occuring in RL, how would a real life nation react? What would they do? Would they always be polite in their correspondence? And then, coupled with how Vrakians see the world (which is somewhat different) then I act in my IC fashion. Again, I doubt any RL nation would look favorably upon a massive fleet 1000 nautical miles off their coast - irregardless if its "international" waters or not.

Well, IV is right in that respect and I don't disagree with you, but IC the way my government sees it is that the Imperial fleets are much closer to some of the other Klatchain states yet Vrak is the only one that's being so... vocal about this whole ordeal.

Well, IV is right in that respect and I don't disagree with you, but IC the way my government sees it is that the Imperial fleets are much closer to some of the other Klatchain states yet Vrak is the only one that's being so... vocal about this whole ordeal.

Of course. Currently, Vrak holds the presidency of the FKC. The King is autocratic, wary of foreigners, and dislikes international bodies. What do you expect? Other FKC states also have expressed their disapproval.

Hamptonshire: the only reason why I suggested 3 is because that's only 3 players a guy has to round up. 5 will drag it out.

I expected just that, actually. And while others may have expressed disapproval, they haven't really done any more than that. Mind you, I'm not complaining, it lends a tense atmosphere to the whole RP that I'm enjoying.

At this point I would like to apologize to everyone. I love a good debate, but I hate losing when I'm right... this leads to problems. There were a few things that I had misunderstood.
1. I thought that since Vrak had basically turned the World against the OMP, it was my duty to defend my honor by ICly arguing our case. By saying we have no evil plans for the Klatch, I was merely trying to shift public opinion.
2. I just noticed the OOC thread. I know it had been mentioned to me. I just plain forgot. That's the cause of a lot of the trouble.
3. As far as the lack of communication beforehand, I guess it was just me being spoiled... when there's a baddie like DB around, usually there isn't a hugely powerful region to deal with. Get in, deal with DB, get out was the plan. Not doing the proper research to know that the Klatch would get upset was my bad.
4. Pacific Northwesteria is an idealistic, somewhat naïve nation. We believe in what is right, and are very self-conscious of our image. When Vrak's IC slander (although the truth was know OOC, I just learned) hit, it hit hard for the above reasons. My responses were merely attempting to refute the claims of Vrak, defending my actions on the international stage.
5. I have a different RP style than I guess most people here. I keep track of my military assets, at least the ones that I plan to use, as well as my spending. However, I don't exactly keep a spreadsheet like some nations. Also, instead of having an IC character that I play as, I pretty much play as myself: I guess it's a good start, at least. I pretend not to know OOC information, but I don't become a totally different person. It would take a heck of a lot to make the knowing-ooc person and the not-knowing-ooc person have different fundamental beliefs. However, in this case, I can understand it.

Wow, look at that. Even my apology is long-winded. I may as well just stop it here.

Of course. Currently, Vrak holds the presidency of the FKC. The King is autocratic, wary of foreigners, and dislikes international bodies. What do you expect? Other FKC states also have expressed their disapproval.

Hamptonshire: the only reason why I suggested 3 is because that's only 3 players a guy has to round up. 5 will drag it out.

I understand, but 3 is, for lack of a better term, and odd number to use in this case. A larger "jury" would ensure a more decisive decision. If we go eith three, then I'll have to insist that unless the decision is unanimous, it won't be 'binding'.


Also must say, I enjoy the tenseness of this RP. Both sides have made mistakes and no one wants to back down. All we need is an assassination... ;).

PN:

1. Sure, that's the whole idea behind trying to sway public opinion. Icly, Vrak will do everything it takes to make you guys look like blundering fools. Reinforcing your fleets and still merely saying that you are after pirates helps my cause.

2. Ok.

3. Well, related to #2 as well. Not doing the proper research does sometimes land a person in hot water. That being said, any one of the FKC players are quite open minded to telegrams, etc...

4. Again, my "slander" (or let's say spin) was IC motivated, not OOC. However, where I did say that I was beginning to get annoyed with you OOC wa indeed an OOC annoyance. But's let's forget about that.

5. Er...okay.

Apology accepted. On to the Rp!

Hamp: 3 or 5 is fine. I can live with a 2-1 majority with 3. Unless you know 5 willing players ready to parachute in right away here.

Hamp: 3 or 5 is fine. I can live with a 2-1 majority with 3. Unless you know 5 willing players ready to parachute in right away here.

Before I answer, where shall this take place? KIST, here on II, or another third party site (I have a suggestion for this). If we go with 3 a decision would need to be unanimous, if we go with 5 four votes would be needed.

*ahem* I would just like to remind my fellow Klatchians that the AWM canal is JDF-controlled and has JDF forces stationed on/around it. I'm not sure what all that encompasses, but yeah.

Oh, and for future reference, Monte Ozarka is where AWM was. AWM ceased to exist and so I took his spot on the map.

As a member of the OMP that ended up not getting involved, I would be willing to sit on the jury.

As a member of the OMP that ended up not getting involved, I would be willing to sit on the jury.

Sorry, but all OMP members are ineligible to sit on the "panel".

Chardonay would be willing to send a representative to sit on the jury.

Well, IV is right in that respect and I don't disagree with you, but IC the way my government sees it is that the Imperial fleets are much closer to some of the other Klatchain states yet Vrak is the only one that's being so... vocal about this whole ordeal.

Actually, the impression I'm getting from those Klatchians willing to post is that they are all anoyed at your actions, but that there is no point repeating themselves when Vrak is doing a fine job as it is.

Chardonay would be willing to send a representative to sit on the jury.

*cough* OOC thread.

No Klatchian ship or aircraft, civilian or otherwise, may enter the waters 100 miles from the center of the fleet. Whereas before we were willing to allow commercial Klatchian shipping safe conveyance through the fleets, Dyelli Beybi's rash decision has spoiled any chance of that.

How does this actually affect me entering the waters of Jiddagy coming in from the South East of the Klatchian region... is it close enough to interupt my shipment?

That message doesn't affect you, the last one does. Also, the exclusion zone is only a 100 mile radius per fleet, the Black Sea is substantially larger than that and we aren't seeking to totally disrupt trade, just to keep Klatchian ships and aircraft away from my fleets.

Meh... because of your actions you are raising the stakes... Iuthia as been working with some of the governments to protect vessels from Vrak to Iuthia and all Vessals from Jiggady who we are assisting. Your lack of respect to the entire region because of the action of one nation as damaged relations.

We see it as unnessicary and aggressive on your side.

And just how the hell would you react when someone planned fired a missile that normally carried a nuclear weapon as a payload exceedingly close to one of your fleets, refused to provide a timetable beforehand, and then apparantly lied by placing the missile even closer? I wasn't the one who raised the stakes here and frankly I'm being damned restrained. Since Vrak is so fond of using RL analogies I'll use one myself; if North Korea had pulled something similar on the US, the US would have shot the damn missile down and then would have bombed every missile site, missile manufacturing facility, and suspected nuclear weapons site in North Korea. There would be no explanations and there sure as hell wouldn't be any negotiations.

And just how the hell would you react when someone planned fired a missile that normally carried a nuclear weapon as a payload exceedingly close to one of your fleets, refused to provide a timetable beforehand, and then apparantly lied by placing the missile even closer?

He said he would warn you 30 mins in advance. And given that he warned you it may go over a mile... I see his actions to be more sensible then your plonking 400+ ships in the region without working with Klatch to solve the problem.

I wasn't the one who raised the stakes here and frankly I'm being damned restrained. Since Vrak is so fond of using RL analogies I'll use one myself; if North Korea had pulled something similar on the US, the US would have shot the damn missile down and then would have bombed every missile site, missile manufacturing facility, and suspected nuclear weapons site in North Korea. There would be no explanations and there sure as hell wouldn't be any negotiations.

Yes... you will be damned at this rate. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. If you worked with Klatch this problem would have been over a long time ago. But your analogy places you as the IC United States here...

Only the US can afford a little scuffle... you can't. As far as I'm concerned IC, you are in the wrong.

Actually he said he would warn Alcona 30 minutes in advance, not me. And please explain to me how I'm in the wrong when declaring Maritime Exclusion Zones around fleets and battlegroups is Standard Operating Procedure for every navy in the world.

Actually he said he would warn Alcona 30 minutes in advance, not me. And please explain to me how I'm in the wrong when declaring Maritime Exclusion Zones around fleets and battlegroups is Standard Operating Procedure for every navy in the world.

It's my opinion that you are in the wrong. Am I wrong for thinking that? No, it's an opinion and it's relative to the situation. Do I think you are making the situation worse? Yes. Please don't insult my inteligence by quoting laws which only matter if people agree with them.

Meanwhile I would have expected that you could have asked Vrak for the time table or it was assumed he would pass the information on.

Uh, I did ask Dyelli Beybi and I wasn't answered. And who said anything about laws concerning naval MEZs? Every time an admiral or captain recieves new orders there's a section in those orders that directs him/her to "secure the safety of his/her command," declaring an MEZ is part of that. There is no element of international cooperation involved, nations aren't in the habit of asking other nations if it's okay that they run their armed forces how they please. Anyone who disregards a declared MEZ deserves to take a non-voluntary swim.

Uh, I did ask Dyelli Beybi and I wasn't answered. And who said anything about laws concerning naval MEZs? Every time an admiral or captain recieves new orders there's a section in those orders that directs him/her to "secure the safety of his/her command," declaring an MEZ is part of that. There is no element of international cooperation involved, nations aren't in the habit of asking other nations if it's okay that they run their armed forces how they please. Anyone who disregards a declared MEZ deserves to take a non-voluntary swim.

SS - Whats going on with the OMP boards?

*shrug* Dunno.

Arrrrr, I hates the sea an everythin innit!

-Attributed to Supreme Naval Commander Itxaad when told of his promotion

Since Vrak is so fond of using RL analogies I'll use one myself; if North Korea had pulled something similar on the US, the US would have shot the damn missile down and then would have bombed every missile site, missile manufacturing facility, and suspected nuclear weapons site in North Korea. There would be no explanations and there sure as hell wouldn't be any negotiations.

Problem is though, DB isn't North Korea. It would be more like if Russia pulled a stunt like that at the height of the cold war, and they pulled some similar ones, like dropping deactivated mines in western harbours. Trying to bomb them would cause a lot of problems, such as them firing real nuclear missiles.

Something I think some people are failing to realise is Dyelli Beybi, Vrak and the rest of the FKC aren't independant, we're one Nation. Vrak currently holds the Presidency, as such when Vrak speaks he speaks for Klatch.

Something I think some people are failing to realise is Dyelli Beybi, Vrak and the rest of the FKC aren't independant, we're one Nation. Vrak currently holds the Presidency, as such when Vrak speaks he speaks for Klatch.

Yes, but were also not really a modern 'nation state' either.

The Klatch is more a Confederation of States with a somewhat weak central government. It is much like the pre-Westphalia Treaty Holy Roman Empire or the Condfedrate States of America than any 'modern' state most people are used to.

Imagine the U.S. with Chicago as the Capitol and the country still being run under the Articles of Confederation with each state having it's own armed forces and you've got a good idea of how things work around the Klatch.

Oh, and since I'm the only Privy Council member active I tend to just do things rather than wait for debates that never occur.

Also note:
Landgravine Hubris --- Privy Council --- JDF are all the Central Government

Alexander III---The United Duchies---Outer Ministry are all my state government annoucements.

So I have to keep things in dual tracks sometimes...:P

Futhermore, excluding where my civilian ships could go just really pissed His Grace and the Navy off. I'm afraid that with both his Grace and Vrak on the war path it might not be too much longer before Calarca decides to intervene and he is the largest naval power in the Klatch. Or Parliment declaring all out war against the OMP.

That last part should be an IC consideration actually.

:headbang: Right, I must not have made myself clear earlier. To cut through the maritime exclusion zone would mean actually cutting through my fleet(s). Thus far no FKC skipper has shown that kind of spine and I seriously doubt that is going to change. Oh, and His Grace's math is off, it's more like 98,000 square miles.

EDIT: Oh, and just an FYI, the MEZ I applied was one that the US uses for an 8-ship carrier battlegroup, not a full-on fleet. It's already too small.

/me wipes hands of dust

Well, that's settled, at least for now.

:headbang: Right, I must not have made myself clear earlier. To cut through the maritime exclusion zone would mean actually cutting through my fleet(s). Thus far no FKC skipper has shown that kind of spine and I seriously doubt that is going to change. Oh, and His Grace's math is off, it's more like 98,000 square miles.

Heh... the reality of the situation isn't the same as the way it's perceived by the people with their fingers on the button. Assuming your vessels aren't in the middle of my trade route (which has both military and civilian vessels going down it, so they are travelling now) then we won't be affected...

No one wants to go near your vessels, that isn't the issue... the issue is that you are telling nations in a region that parts of their waters of off limits because you are there (something they aren't pleased about in the first place) and that you've basically made a statement saying that they cannot come near.

The fact that they didn't come near in the first place but that they are now having their waters taken hostage is going to upset them. It's being perceived as in insult in high tension times.

Are they right? Given that it's a matter of opinion... yes, they can think what they like. These actions show that your nation doesn't respect that these are Klatchian waters and that you have little respect for the people whos region you have entered... thus raising tensions ever more.

Well done. Again - a mountain out of a mole hill.

*snorts* How the hell can I be denying them the use of their waters when I'm not even in them?

Er, it is called precident S.S. My government was furious that you would dare to stop our, Rillion, Calarca, Terran Sphere, Durakian, Ozarkian shipping while allowing yourselves and "neutral" commerical ships to do what they liked. If we hadn't protested your decleration it would have been equivilant to saying you had the right to restrict Klatchian Trade in the South Klatchian Ocean.

(And I actually cut down the numbers because I couldn't quite figureout what your term ment...I didn't want to accuse you of too large an area after all.)

With the precident set that you had the right to shut down Klatchian Trade where it 'threatened' you versus 'neutral' shipping, you could have expanded your military exclusion zone across all of our southern trade routes. As far as we were concerned, everything you made in that last statement was arbirary and without any reasonable limits. Based on your statements there was nothing to say you could not expand the exclusion zone to say 10,000 mile circumfence around your fleet, or you could have divided your fleet up into large, self supporting fleets. Either manuver would have seriously denied us access to our trade routes. That was why we got so damn pissy about the whole buisness.

I should also note that restricting all civilian vessels from that same radius would have garnered no response. Then it would have been seen as an attempt to create a safty buffer around your ships for your warships as well as the world's civilian shipping.