NationStates Jolt Archive

Hi, I'm USSNA. I have noticed that as I have been going through storefronts, stuff (mainly naval ships) keep getting more and more unrealistic for a Modern Tech timeline.

I will single out Doujin*. He is a great designer and I love his ships, but they are not Modern Tech; they are just past modern tech. In your Doujin Mk. 2 armor scheme you talk about railguns. I know railguns are real but they will not be in practical use in the next 5-6 years. The Doujin super-ship isn't that realistic either. I know it would be possible, but it wouldn't be practical.

I also dont like these people putting 6-9 30 inch guns on ships that barely make 100 tons in displacement. Again I will single Doujin out. His Atlantis project has some 54 28' guns.

A whole other thing about some of these storefronts are that they just copy and paste existing equipment. Can people not be creative? I relise that it is hard o find pictures and whatnot, but plese try and be original.

I hope that these aren't just the ravings of a lunitic. :headbang: But I just want to see how other people feel about it.


~United Soviet States of the New Age (USSNA)~
||||||||||||| Peoples's Combined Soviet Storefont (http://www.freewebs.com/pscs) |||||||||||||


(* Again I reinforce that I hold no grudges against Doujin or any of his subsidiaries. I do, in fact, love many of his designs.)

OOC:You'll like my new storefront that i will open soon because its being jointly run my me and another nation and the guy who runs the other nation will be designing the planes himself using a pencil, paper, and a scanner.

I use real world pics, and tweak the design with real world current tech, or even out dated tech used in a different manner.
As far as pics go though, I cut and paste I dont have time to do design the images.

My storefront is probably good by your measures, except for the airplane.
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=348297

It is okay to develop technology that is just barly ahead of our time. Modern tech spans from about WWII to about 2050. I myself am trying to cater to all tech ages. I am not doing a good job of it. But I am trying. I personally am into making things up rather than copy from reality, unless it is future tech. then I borrow some from sci-fi shows. In the end It depends on everones individual tastes. I prefer Future Tech myself. It would appear from your post you prefer modern tech. Someone in the next thread may prefer Archaic weaponry. Sure we will never RP a thread together, (Unless it was very strange) but we are all happy, and since this is a game thats what its all about. So no your not a raving Lunatic just hardcore Modern Tech.

Yeah, I notice that people overarm their ships, especially battleships. I bet some of these designs couldn't even float, much less avoid capsizing after one shot from the main guns.

NS Modern Tech is a tad different from RL modern tech, because the NS world is vastly different. Things like extreme resource limitation and much less capable industries and economies just don't exist here. Well, poor industries do, but some nations...

I don't feel that Modern tech should be solid 2004/2005 tech. It's simply absurd. A lot of what's going around is entirely possible, and we have to assume that it is possible AND practical in the NS world because nations really do have the capability to do it.

Besides, take the Joint Strike Fighter. That's 2009/2010 tech, because that's the timeframe when it will first come into service. Is it modern? Is it doable? Is it operable? Yes. Generally NS Modern Tech extends to somewhere around 2015 or 2020...

I operate up to and around the 2015 timeframe, so I consider myself in the 2004-2014 or 2016 bracket...something like that :P There's also postmodern, which is up to and around 2050, but at that point it gets a bit ambiguous depending on your vision of the future. I for one don't think we're going to have hover cars or lunar bases in 2050 (didn't they say that forty years ago?)...but...

Se when I think modern tech I think mid 1980's to about 2012ish.

Yeah, I notice that people overarm their ships, especially battleships. I bet some of these designs couldn't even float, much less avoid capsizing after one shot from the main guns.
Tis true.
I remeber when I used to use Modern tech.
I think my battleship had 9 16 inch guns and only weighed 35,000 tons lol.
1 shot would have tipped that thing.
If it would even float..........

I figure it this way: uber-ships like the Doujin are inpracticle, in my eyes, for NationStates. However, Doujin is future tech (or whatever we're presently calling it), and he's getting a lot of people to buy these grossly-oversized creatures. If it's selling, people must be finding a use for it.

I consider myself modern tech presently (2004-2015-ish.......in the past, I've bought Hailfire Droids....hehe...). I'm considering a leap to future tech right now, but I don't think I will....not yet, at least. I strive to make vehicles that can actually work and are practicle. But that's just me. If a bunch of people got uber-ships, let 'em have 'em. I just won't RP with 'em.....

Just my two cents....

Me!

I go for realism in designing my naval vessels, except I don't think people like realism... they just want as many big guns as possible.

I have one design at the Portland Iron Works that's along the lines of ubermodern technology (the Freedom-class super dreadnought), but the other ships I have are based on ships that were in active service or were authorized for construction (in the case of the Truxtun-class battlecruiser, two of the class I based mine on were converted to aircraft carriers and were never built as battlecruisers) in World War II with some modifications. I believe I also indicate which RL class I've based my designs on in my descriptions of each ship.

I think allowing people to make stuff that is possible in modern tech, just not practical in RL is what makes the game more fun. It be so boring and so difficult to desighn something thats not only possibly but practical. Ships and planes now a days can take years to desighn, I dont know about you, but im not sitting down and wating a RL year on desighning 1 ship or plane for this game, cause this is just a game. If people want to desighn uber-ships that cost 100 Billion+, let them. Just cause its big, doesnt mean that a few torpedos, missles etc. wont sink it. Basically If i lose 50 planes to sink 1 of your uber-ships, then im still gonna come out on top, economically speaking.

I figure it this way: uber-ships like the Doujin are inpracticle, in my eyes, for NationStates. However, Doujin is future tech (or whatever we're presently calling it), and he's getting a lot of people to buy these grossly-oversized creatures. If it's selling, people must be finding a use for it.

I consider myself modern tech presently (2004-2015-ish.......in the past, I've bought Hailfire Droids....hehe...). I'm considering a leap to future tech right now, but I don't think I will....not yet, at least. I strive to make vehicles that can actually work and are practicle. But that's just me. If a bunch of people got uber-ships, let 'em have 'em. I just won't RP with 'em.....

Just my two cents....

Me!

I am most definatly not future tech thank you very much :) They weren't made to be practical, they were made as a deterrant and to show the "might and power of the Doujin Navy"


I will single out Doujin*. He is a great designer and I love his ships, but they are not Modern Tech; they are just past modern tech. In your Doujin Mk. 2 armor scheme you talk about railguns. I know railguns are real but they will not be in practical use in the next 5-6 years.

In the RL, no they wouldn't. However, in NationStates there is a lot more money and economic worth than that of the Real Life world. Hell, Doujin itself has a Defense Budget of around 4.3 trillion dollars, and I'm a relatively small nation in comparison to some others. If the funds were made available to corporations, I can gaurantee you that we would have tanks with railguns or some variation thereof existing today, maybe not in service but definatly as a testbed. Don't begin comparing RL to NS, it is definatly not a wise decision.

OOC: I have to disagree about railgun tanks. Railguns on ships are practical because ships can have nuclear reactors and generally big generators and have lots of space for capacitors. Tanks, however, simply dont have the space to use a railgun with any degree of effectiveness in modern tech IMO.

Storefronts are inherently unrealistic. They're advertised, inevitably, in the same way that consumer products are (but ships and military hardware are industrial goods), and bear no relation to how real nations actually do business like that. Its cheap and usually just a way for people to show off their ships and get unrealistic hordes of money. Usually.

Industrial goods are advertised far more practically, because corporations and nations are not swayed by flashy advertising consumers need. Except, most NS players are, and they forget to roleplay being a whole nation and not some guy with a 100 billion dollar credit to spend at Ebay.

OOC: I have to disagree about railgun tanks. Railguns on ships are practical because ships can have nuclear reactors and generally big generators and have lots of space for capacitors. Tanks, however, simply dont have the space to use a railgun with any degree of effectiveness in modern tech IMO.

I disagree with your disagreement. All that is needed is the money, and then anything is possible :p

Storefronts are inherently unrealistic. They're advertised, inevitably, in the same way that consumer products are (but ships and military hardware are industrial goods), and bear no relation to how real nations actually do business like that. Its cheap and usually just a way for people to show off their ships and get unrealistic hordes of money. Usually.

Industrial goods are advertised far more practically, because corporations and nations are not swayed by flashy advertising consumers need. Except, most NS players are, and they forget to roleplay being a whole nation and not some guy with a 100 billion dollar credit to spend at Ebay.

That is one of the reasons I don't advertise my storefront anymore.

I will single out Doujin*. He is a great designer and I love his ships, but they are not Modern Tech; they are just past modern tech. In your Doujin Mk. 2 armor scheme you talk about railguns. I know railguns are real but they will not be in practical use in the next 5-6 years. The Doujin super-ship isn't that realistic either. I know it would be possible, but it wouldn't be practical.

First of all, the Doujin isn't a "supership", that's a moniker attached to the ship by idiots who have no idea what the word tactics means. And no, he doesn't mention railgun specifically, he was using them to illustrate a means of defeating kinetic weaponry.

I also dont like these people putting 6-9 30 inch guns on ships that barely make 100 tons in displacement. Again I will single Doujin out. His Atlantis project has some 54 28' guns.

A mere frigate displaces thousand of tons, so I don't know where you get this assertion that it's even possible for any modern warship to accomplish this. AFAIK, Project Atlantis is a series of comms platforms with heavy defenses. Each platform displaces tens of millions of tons, so again your assumption is incorrect.

Doujin I never said you were future tech. All I said is that you are just past modern tech.

I compare RL to NS becuase if we didnt all we would have is a bunch of idiots running arround will uber everything. I do agree that in NS you can exaturate, but some things go too far. There has to be some realism.

Doujin I never said you were future tech. All I said is that you are just past modern tech.

I compare RL to NS becuase if we didnt all we would have is a bunch of idiots running arround will uber everything. I do agree that in NS you can exaturate, but some things go too far. There has to be some realism.

Modern tech is defined as anything between now and 2020, the Doujin can be built with projected 2010 tech. What's so unlikely about the Doujin is the amount of resources one consumes. However, that's a moot point because you have hundreds of nations the size of China or larger, with pops two or three times as big, mineral resources that would blow the mind of any RL country, and a GDP that would make the RL world sell its perverbial sister just to get a hundredth of the riches.

Uhn. I tend to work to much more strictly modern technology, meaning anything between now and 2006-ish.

To Warheaven, modern tech usually doesn't go to 2050, because by then things like powered armor, supercavitating vessels, portable fusion power, and all sorts of other stuff would be happening.

Modern is generally now to 2020-2025 at most, although others put it at 2010.

Doujin can handle your claims, but I'll say right now that I share your peeve on RL equipment storefronts.

I don't have a storefront, per se, I try to handle offers more realistically with diplomacy, production negotiations, stuff like that.

However, I have seen banner ads for FN Herstal, Lockheed and the like, and they do have flashy layouts and similar blurb, pic and stat layouts. Of course, ordering is much more complicated than the average NS storefront.

Se when I think modern tech I think mid 1980's to about 2012ish.
I do more like 1947-2012.
Myself.

Storefronts are inherently unrealistic. They're advertised, inevitably, in the same way that consumer products are (but ships and military hardware are industrial goods), and bear no relation to how real nations actually do business like that. Its cheap and usually just a way for people to show off their ships and get unrealistic hordes of money. Usually.

Industrial goods are advertised far more practically, because corporations and nations are not swayed by flashy advertising consumers need. Except, most NS players are, and they forget to roleplay being a whole nation and not some guy with a 100 billion dollar credit to spend at Ebay.

I personally only use storefronts so I can quantify my navy. If I get involved in a conflict, and I say I have so-and-so many battleships, cruisers, etc., and the other person starts bitching, I can show him the threads and my posts as proof. If that makes any sense.

Sorry I ment to say 100k tons. (lol) But i think that 2020 is a bit too far. That is 16-21 years away. Would people in 1974 look at homecomputers, and the internet as being modern? No, they would think that they were fantasy.

You are also using projected tech. a lot of things were projected (a lot in the fourties and fifties lol) but a lot of the time things dont turn out.

You are right about all the nations, but if there were all these nations, IRl then we would be to Mars, and possible farther than that. Again you must use RL as a base. but you cant distort that base too much.

It's only a game...

"If you're going to do something, do it properly." Very applicable.

I disagree with your disagreement. All that is needed is the money, and then anything is possible :p
No I really have to disagree with your disagreement with my disagreement, current and forseeable battery technology is not good enough to allow a railgun to be practically used in a tank. Maybe in 50 years, but that is out of most modern tech nations' tech brackets.

Oh and to New Empire, cold fusion isn't 2050.

I know that. However, the current cold fusion reactor is the size of a large beer mug. Cold Fusion is not ready for modern technology, even with good funding, a CFR that's 10K times more powerful than the existing mini reactor would only be .27 MW more powerful than that of the M1 Abram's gas turbine.

There are probably some breakthroughs that need to be made before we see this in service.

0.27mw is actually quite a lot but I meant cold fusion is later than 2050.

I compare RL to NS becuase if we didnt all we would have is a bunch of idiots running arround will uber everything.

Pssst, I hate to tell you, but you're too late.

SB, like NE said, I've definitely seen plenty of high-gloss adds for RAFAEL, Elbit, Lockheed-Martin, and other arms companies (mostly western) and I've seen plenty of press releases exaggerating the abilities of such-and-such new system...but it's true that ordering things through a RL nation or from a RL company is often a difficult and drawn-out process that can start with an ideal system as proposed by the buyer, which is then met with 1-5 systems from other nations that sorta-but-don't-quite meet what that nation needs but then there's a competition and a decision making process that's usually tied more to politics than to what the original product need was anyways.


But storefronts were created, if you who have been around long enough (March-April 03) might remember, specifically because people would just spam the forums with a new thread for every product (or to ask for new products that were usually advertised in three places on the same forum page) to the point where rapid-paced and active RPs would be found on the third page after a few minutes. Personally, I didn't want to do that and I also felt like keeping track of where my products were being sold, so I made my old thread "Looking for Naval Vessels?" that featured the entire line of Western Asian-styled (~95% new designs with ~5% obscure or unpopular existing ship designs) ships that could be found, compared, and purchased in the same place.

Others decided (invariably as n00bs) to just copy and paste from globalsecurity.org or navy.mil or whatever sites without the faintest understanding of the real prices/costs, the concept of manufacturing lag vs. demand, or even an understanding of what those systems did...that's when there was the big debate of "Open Tech" vs. "Closed" or "Proprietary" tech (just called non-open tech, if my memory serves me well). This was a dull and silly little thing, but people bought the Nimitzes like they were going out of style and then refused in RPs to acknowledge the limitations of their ships (such as the fact that you can't fire on an enemy ship using stealthy systems from 120km away unless you have some system very close in to detect and report the location of that enemy vessel...or that ECM can often defeat many ASMs...or that old, RL CIWS systems might not catch everything as the navy claims (yet quietly admits is not true at all)...or that you can't launch an entire fighterwing at once...etc.). But if people don't feel like thinking about how to make RPs fun...then what're we to do about it? I, for one, simply didn't acknowledge either those generic goods/Open Tech storefronts and sometimes extended that to an Ignore of the vendors. Othertimes, however, we hit the opposite problem: the invisible tank that nobody can ever find (perhaps not even the crew could know where it is), the superdreadnought (which works fine for intimidation until you have a Nimitz running circles around it like the aircraft carrier was a high performance speed boat...and which should generally be recognized as one of the most extravagent and useless product lines since supermassive railroad guns, the Maginot Line, and the Atlantic Wall), the low-altitude mach 9 fighter jet (never mind that mach 9 at low altitudes has so far only been achieved by ICBMs and meteorites, or that the top reasonable speeds proposed for atmospheric aircraft are less than Mach 6 to save on replacing the wings after every flight (The hypersoar spends about half its time in superlow atmosphere and so hardly can be matched since it has virtually no air resistance to deal with)), and the 5.56 MG with a 5km range and 12,000 rpm ROF. What do we do here? We talk about ships and realism in the "ships" thread, we talk about logistical limits in the "logistics" thread, we talk about the limits of space in the "orbital mechanics" thread, and we talk about land warfare in dedicated threads (although many of those seem to devolve into flame fests within 4 pages nowadays)...but it doesn't change the opinion of the people that make and sell the impossible (for even more impossible prices, thanks to "slave labor" "prison labor" "robot labor" or "Low waged labor" workers who apparently have degrees in rocket science, are metallurgical specialists, or have a degree in hydrodynamics in order to assemble and build the units for pennies per hour...oh, and the lack of what most people call "materials costs," "shipping costs," and "overhead expenses.")

What can we do? Ignore it. Do better with our own storefronts. Try to teach others. or just give up...but to answer the question of the original poster, yes, there are original and realistic projects and systems...but don't look for it at places where the poster can't be bothered to explain the tactical purpose of the system, its limitations, or perhaps even to think of doing anything other than copy-and-pasting from an online stats database without throwing in their own reality-based (not necessarily 100% real) limitations.

0.27mw is actually quite a lot but I meant cold fusion is later than 2050.

[Erm, you need to do some reading on CF then. Cold Fusion is in the here and now, it's practical use is ten or twenty years in the future. A lot of the advanced nuclear energy systems are going to be coming online about the same time (~2025), so there's going to be a huge boom in nuclear energy, and because of its sudden availability in multiple forms it will be cheap in order to remain competitive.]

However, I still don't see Cold Fusion as anything but a large reactor sized prototype at 2025. I know some of you are going to scream hypocrite because of the Poseidon, but in truth, the cold fusion powered ships I use are all past 2025 in tech, the modern ones are powered by nuclear (Usually a Pebblebed) reactors.