NationStates Jolt Archive

Most people in Nationstates (at least when I was playing) thought the battleship was dead it can be turned into flounder by planes. But Most people fail to take into acount how easy it is to jam/bring down/take out the plane before it can launch it/ to destroy a missile. Missiles are based on radar radar can quite easily be jammed (I know there are other types of missiles but none that work on ships) plus if you have a massive battleship it will take possibly dozens to sink the ship. The Yamoto built by the Japanese in WWII took a dozen bombs and torpedos to sink. Antoher thing to mention is that in visioning the return of the battleship it would have missiles instead of guns. Huge missiles with large amounts of them. Battleships in modernwars can also be massive. They couldn't before becaszue of the thrust it took to move them nowadyas hook up 32 reactors to 8 screws? Go for it! That could move almost any ship. So how about a 1300 meter long ship 72 meters wide and 32 meters below the waterline. Thats nearly 3 million tons of displacement. And with that you could quite easily have 40 inch armour made out of a mixture of industrial dimonds and steel. Obviosly we have no near the money to make this all Imperila is saying is that it would be possible and useful to amke a modern day battleship.

OOC: Battleships never really died in NationStates. Eg. www.geocities.com/doujincorp/doujinbb.html

ya they did last year when i was playing every big nation jsut said the battleship is dead....don't buy them they suck etc.

Technically, the battleship is outdated and useless in modern warfare. But not everyone on NS plays modern. I, for example, play World War II-era, when battleships are still widely used.

Battlehips kick ass ;)

Oh, don't get me wrong, I love battleships.

Technically, the battleship is outdated and useless in modern warfare. But not everyone on NS plays modern. I, for example, play World War II-era, when battleships are still widely used.

That is hardely the case. The Marine Corp is pushing for the reactivation of two Iowas that have been mothablled, and have been pushing for this for a long time. There is still a niche that cannot be filled by Aircrat Carriers and Destroyers/Cruisers that only the Battleship can fill. The Battleship provides naval presence in a conflict, you can't go parking an AEGIS cruiser off the coast of a coutnry, a simple .51 calibre gun can penetrate it's quarter inch thick armor and easily cause over 100 million dollars in damage in less than a minute. And if it gets lucky, detonate an exposed Harpoon missile or the warhead of an SM-2 or Tomahawk Cruise missile.

The Harpoon and Exocet are pretty much the most widely known anti-shipping missile. Let's take the Exocet. It's penetration is about 2.75 inches of steel. The Iowas have as little as 6 to as much as 17 inches of steel. How many Exocets do you think you'd need to kill her? A modernized Battleship would kick any f'in ships ass :p

OOC: Even if the battleships aren't that effective in modern combat. There is strong symbolical meaning in them. In the sense of showing off.

Youve all got gd pionts here but the main fact is you cant put enough armour on the top of the ship. yes the hull and decks have huge amounts of armour and would stop anti ship missiles easy. but what gd is that when the top of the ship has been redused to a burnin mangled wreck? unguided weapons would be an ideal thing to use.

Ok say you had a battleship all fitted out with the latest tech ect. the same thing would happen evey time a new unit or weapon enters a battlefield. new weapons and or tactics would be developed to counter them.

yes they could provied a service to the fleet. just add rocket assisted shells and missile launchers and you would have a hell of a unit but imagein the cost to make and maintain. whats this gap anyway that needs fillin that aircraft carriers and destroyers/Cruisers cant fill but a battleship can?

Easy Green, just don't talk - I got a headache trying to read what you were typing.

shut your mouth boy. i cant be dealin with dipshits like you, its a nice day dont wreck it.
im thinkin tacticaly (my spelling is bad yes i do know this and admit to it.) oh piss off why am i botherin?

Destroyers and Cruisers can't shoot far enough nor do enough damage, firing only 90 lb projectiles from their 5" guns. The 16" guns on the Iowa fires 2,000 lb projectiles, at a cost of what... $500? Compared to the million dollar Tomahawk, which does one half the explosive power in damage as the 16" gun from an Iowa.

The niche is that. Land bombardment, mighta been usefull this last "war" in Iraq. In the first Persian Gulf war over a thousand rounds were fired from the Iowas activated at the time, and only 288 Tomahawk missiles.

It doesn't cost a lot of money to down a multi-million dollar aircraft. And if you are going to complain about the cost of Battleships, which I don't know if you did I'm tired, been up for a long time, Carriers cost 5 times more than a Battleship to operate and uses four times the crew.

FEH, I'm going to bed. gnight

Also, there's another reason-

If someone has Super Battleships, there needs to be other Super Battleships to kill them barring lots and lots of missiles.

It seems like battleships have fallen from a role of providing excessive firepower to absorbing enemy firepower. Battleships seem to act more like giant floating bullseyes with 22" guns than actual attack platforms. Instead of being there to dole out punishment to the opposing fleet, they absorb the enemy's fire, allowing carriers to mobilize aircraft and allowing faster destroyers and cruisers to attack with more impunity. I guess the idea behind this is that if a battleship is allowed to use its enormous firepower they will wreak unimaginable havoc, so the priority for an attacking fleet is to eliminate the battleship first.

but would a battleship be a vital piece of equipment in a modern fleet?

Battleships kick ass thats final ;)

they did kick arse.

but would a battleship be a vital piece of equipment in a modern fleet?


Maybe not a vital part but it could support troops on the beach and inland also. Sure the air force can do that too but I think a battleship would help. Faster then the AF at getting to location. Because its right there, it takes time for a plane to arrive.

Battleships can certainly take and dish out quite a bit of firepower, I am not disputing that, but the thing is they aren't strategically or tactically vital.

Battleships can certainly take and dish out quite a bit of firepower, I am not disputing that, but the thing is they aren't strategically or tactically vital.

Ok, i have my battleship and along comes your missile ship mk.2 or whatever. A battleship could easily destroy a lightly armoured ship in a round or 2 and one salvo would eradicate most carriers. A exocet flys toward the ship and it will most likly ping of the armour. The presence of an extra ship could decide the outcome of a naval engagment or the sucsess of a beach assault

What about shore bombardment?

Ok, i have my battleship and along comes your missile ship mk.2 or whatever. A battleship could easily destroy a lightly armoured ship in a round or 2 and one salvo would eradicate most carriers. A exocet flys toward the ship and it will most likly ping of the armour. The presence of an extra ship could decide the outcome of a naval engagment or the sucsess of a beach assault

A battleship would not get anywhere near a carrier. It would be bombed so freaking fast
;)

What about shore bombardment?


Page before this, I metion something about it. Last post of last page I think.

It could be used for a shore bombardment and it would be bloody gd at it just as in the 2nd world war. but what about tomahawk missiles theyre far more accurate and have an increased range.

When looking at a battleship as a target you have to see the point that yes a round would do nothing to the hull and decks as they have the thickest armour... but the topside does not have the armour the bridge radio rooms for example would be an easy target. an exocet to the bridge that would wreck the ship out right. also aircraft a low level strike would rinse it.

It could be used for a shore bombardment and it would be bloody gd at it just as in the 2nd world war. but what about tomahawk missiles theyre far more accurate and have an increased range.

When looking at a battleship as a target you have to see the point that yes a round would do nothing to the hull and decks as they have the thickest armour... but the topside does not have the armour the bridge radio rooms for example would be an easy target. an exocet to the bridge that would wreck the ship out right. also aircraft a low level strike would rinse it.


Tomahawks cost ALLOT more then a shell from a BS and a shell from a BS is like 5x stronger.

Not necessarily, a Tomahawk and a battleship shell would be about equal (assuming a 14 or 15" shell)

a shell from a BS explodes on contact a tomahawk doesnt it can go into a bunker before going off. a Bs shell would just damage the outside of a bunker

a shell from a BS explodes on contact a tomahawk doesnt it can go into a bunker before going off. a Bs shell would just damage the outside of a bunker


Then don't use a BS on a bunker just use to fuck the enemy up on the beach ;)

Sure the Tomahawk and BS shell are equal, but a shell is ALLOT cheaper.

Okay, so I was wrong. So sue me. :headbang:

Gents, the battleship is not obsolete. The enormous advances is anti-air, anti-missile and anti-sub defences in the post-war period mean that a battleship can easily take on most anything. The chances of missiles reducing the top of a Frunze to a mangled wreck are very slim indeed.

:headbang:


Thats not good on the head.

Also, don't forget the "Knife Fighter" Battleship type. Heavily Armoured, and Heavily Armed (25"+ Cannons, in some cases). Designed to get relatively close compared to other naval engagements [with air defense, of course] and blow everything away.

Also, don't forget the "Knife Fighter" Battleship type. Heavily Armoured, and Heavily Armed (25"+ Cannons, in some cases). Designed to get relatively close compared to other naval engagements [with air defense, of course] and blow everything away.



25" Guns? Holy shit!!!! :eek:

oh come on please with all the advancements in tech to counter those new weapons wed be back where we started. BS are now obsolete they have been for years or they would still be used now. Where did this Knife fighter come from?

25" Guns? Holy shit!!!! :eek:

Yeha, I know. Plays hell with the accuracy, but just the size alone is cool, even if it's really hard to ever use them.

More of a "I'm not fighting that thing" type of ship than a real defense, anyhow.

25"? Is that even possible?!

Missiles are based on radar radar can quite easily be jammed (I know there are other types of missiles but none that work on ships) plus if you have a massive battleship it will take possibly dozens to sink the ship.

And that is why we invented the nuclear anti-fleet missile....

25"? Is that even possible?!

Based on Doujin Shipyards, yes, I'd assume-

If I can read correctly, I think the Leviathon has 22" guns, and the Doujin 30".
And there's much less of them than on a Leviathon or Doujin- there's only 3 cannons of that size (though it is a smaller ship).
And the Doujin and Leviathon, IIRC, don't have accuracy problems, either. Must be something about how they designed them.

Edit- The ship I'm talking about are Great Matean Warlord-class Heavy Fire Battleships. I'm not sure about the accuracy problems, but based upon what I've heard, larger sizes make it harder and harder to hit. If there is no problem from that and I'm mistaken, they would probably act just like dreadnoughts.

OOC: Battleships aren't obselete. They do have a role to play, and one which only they can do. This involves two things:

1) Using their main guns to batter shore targets and enemy battleships. (Note: NEVER use main guns against enemy escorts or carriers. You can launch missiles to do that which dont require you to get that close, of cause this is different with superdreads but battleships arent superdreads.

2) Absorbing lots of firepower which could be destroying other ships.

Battleships are not, however, invulnerable. Yes the Exocet and Harpoon are useless against battleships, but they were designed for use in a pretty much battleship-free world. Also they were designed a long time ago...

New missiles are useful against battleships, a missile with a 1000kg warhead or more (ie shipwreck) and a contact (rather than delayed) fuse can cause severe damage to a battleship. Still they can be shot down and it will take many hits to sink the ship, however it can be done without a huge amount of difficulty.

In conclusion, battleships are useful, if expensive, weapons. Still they are easily affordable by NS nations which are on the whole bigger and richer than the majority of 1st world nations today, and in a NS world where battleships are prevelant, they certainly have a lot more than a niche to fill in combanting enemy ships.

And that is why we invented the nuclear anti-fleet missile....
I, like most nations, would respond to a tactical nuclear strike on one of my fleets with complete nuclear destruction of your navy.

Missiles are based on radarASMs don't have to be radar-guided. Some of the very first, in fact, homed in on heat or the shockwaves of gunfire.
Antoher thing to mention is that in visioning the return of the battleship it would have missiles instead of guns. Huge missiles with large amounts of them.You'd either have to have a few launchers with below-deck reloads, or put the launchers above the armor deck.
And with that you could quite easily have 40 inch armour made out of a mixture of industrial dimonds and steel.Diamonds are brittle.
ya they did last year when i was playing every big nation jsut said the battleship is dead....don't buy them they suck etc.I didn't...They're useful for certain roles.
A modernized Battleship would kick any f'in ships ass :pI don't think the ships would let the battleship get in gunfire range.
And if you are going to complain about the cost of Battleships, which I don't know if you did I'm tired, been up for a long time, Carriers cost 5 times more than a Battleship to operate and uses four times the crew.I believe I read somewhere that a modern battleship would cost about as much as a Nimitz-class carrier.
If someone has Super Battleships, there needs to be other Super Battleships to kill them barring lots and lots of missiles.Eh, I could kill any "Super Battleship" with one non-nuclear weapon.
but the topside does not have the armour the bridge radio rooms for example would be an easy target. an exocet to the bridge that would wreck the ship out right. also aircraft a low level strike would rinse it.Battleships' bridges are armored.
a shell from a BS explodes on contact a tomahawk doesnt it can go into a bunker before going off. a Bs shell would just damage the outside of a bunkerAre you sure a Tomahawk can penetrate thick concrete before exploding?
Sure the Tomahawk and BS shell are equal, but a shell is ALLOT cheaper.A 16" shell has twice the explosive power.
Based on Doujin Shipyards, yes, I'd assume-It wouldn't get the range Doujin claims, though.

Ok and which non-nuclear supewr battleship killing weapon would this be? *listens for the same repetitive suggestions...*

wow thats one hell of a reply.

on the bridge think im just statein that a battleship would go the same way as bismark went. the hull was fine but the top was shelled to nothing before it sunk. remember all its guns were out of action before it sank

Yes it was shelled. Do you know the difference in explosive force between a shell and a missile? The only things that can kill battleships are lots and lots of specially designed missiles or other battleships.

Or torpedoes and mines. :) But then again: does ANYBODY have the stupidity to send a battleship out alone?

Minefields would be detected by minesweepers, plus you can't force a ship into a minefield (unless it's going through a narrow straight with no value to you). Torpedoes have to be launched too close, the escorts would get them. Again most torpedoes would bounce off.

Meh, I dunno about the too close bit. Depends on the submarine launching them and on the torpedo. To take a handy exaple, look at the latest Russian stuff, the UGST or 65-76. (http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WTRussian_post-WWII.htm) You'd have to have balls of steel and a very quiet submarine, but it could in theory be done.

your missing the point, its bloody near impossible to sink a battleship its been proven. but you can make it a floatin wreck. you wouldnt go for the hull anymore you'd go for everything on top of the ship it would be a piece o piss.

As soon as you fired you'd be detected and destroyed, and there's so much time to intercept it.

your missing the point, its bloody near impossible to sink a battleship its been proven. but you can make it a floatin wreck. you wouldnt go for the hull anymore you'd go for everything on top of the ship it would be a piece o piss.

OOC:Ok and which non-nuclear supewr battleship killing weapon would this be? *listens for the same repetitive suggestions...*I think a one-meter-diameter tunsten sphere launched from an ICBM or SLBM, impacting at 6.5 km/s and with impact kinetic energy equivalent to 422 tons of TNT would do it. If not, I could use a larger object.

If you fired that I would assume it was nuclear and retaliate in kind.

If you fired that I would assume it was nuclear and retaliate in kind.Even though it is known that Nianacio lacks nuclear ICBMs and SLBMs, you wouldn't know that it's not launching a satellite, and Nianacio has a rather effective ABM system? I could still launch it from space.

Even though it is known that Nianacio lacks nuclear ICBMs and SLBMs, you wouldn't know that it's not launching a satellite, and Nianacio has a rather effective ABM system? I could still launch it from space.

And I know for definate that you have none how?

And I know for definate that you have none how?You can't be absolutely sure...But you can't be absolutely sure that key members of your government aren't Nianaciana agents, either, can you? My point is that although you can't be absolutely sure, acting on the suspicion wouldn't be a good idea.

Battleships are diz shit.

Please read the rest of the post for the other side of the story.

Ok and which non-nuclear supewr battleship killing weapon would this be? *listens for the same repetitive suggestions...*

High velocity and density kinetic weapons are the death of battleships. You break a hole in the right place, and the ship breaks in half on its own weight. Not that those are quite feasible, yet, but once they are, you're looking at the complete death of large ships, and that includes battleships and supercarriers.

Well, as for the Doujin's guns range, that has more to do with the ammunition it fires. The ERGM shells it launches are more akin to barrel-launched missiles rather than shells in the traditional sense. The Doujin can fire conventional ammunition, but only out to about 100 km.

30" guns are a nightmare though. For the Doujin, this required each gun's barrel to be supported both below and above it by a strong frame to prevent the barrel collapsing itself. The loading mechanisms are hideous, and require the use of counterweights in a system that has to physically lift the shell (all ten tons of it) into the gun barrel to be ready to fire. The actual housing of the ignition chamber for the ETC actually requires six feet of armour to prevent the propulsive gasses from blasting the barrel apart. This huge clump of armour actually helps counterbalance the hideous weight of the frame...and so on. The gun systems are basically supermassive and account for the oversized turrets on the Doujin.

Which is why it is the only Doujin-designed ship to mount the 30" gun. The guns, like the original Doujin, were designed for political and commercial as well as military impact, displaying the might of Doujin for all to see. The guns, although powerful enough to enspire fear in any nearby ocean, are infact slow moving, slow-firing political fornication, and in reality they aren't that useful apart from as a show of might. (Although dont be fooled, a single direct hit would destroy just about anything).

As for battleships in general, in the real world they are too expensive for the roles invisioned, and only another battleship being built would see the return of the Iowas. But in nationstates, naval battles are much more intense, much more fierce, and Battleships simply survive better than any other unit.

Which is the tactical justification for the superdreadnoughts. Nigh on impossible to stop, they can take more fire than any other ship, and, more importantly, can act like a sponge for enemy fire. In RL they would be too expensive and impractical to build. But in NS...

The Doujin can fire conventional ammunition, but only out to about 100 km.What's the gun's muzzle velocity? "Big Gun" (which I admit was not designed to simulate such large guns) says its range would be less than 10,000 yards.
Nigh on impossible to stopI think it'd be easy (but expensive) to stop.

right...

and after the enemy has put a single torpedo under our ship and it cant turn left or right or shit...

not to mention that we dont need to use huge missiles.. we can drop a neutron bomb or photon or what ever the hell is in fashion this week..

also souch a ship would move amasingly slow..

and it would be mouch like giving enemy subs and enemy air plaines a big note that said hey guys were coming in with a huge ship here... u can bassickle drop it half a globe away and ure torpedos should still find it since any decoys would look like ants ...

weakneses

1. you cant protect it good
2. its slow
3. its hard to hide

right...

and after the enemy has put a single torpedo under our ship and it cant turn left or right or shit...

not to mention that we dont need to use huge missiles.. we can drop a neutron bomb or photon or what ever the hell is in fashion this week..

also souch a ship would move amasingly slow..

and it would be mouch like giving enemy subs and enemy air plaines a big note that said hey guys were coming in with a huge ship here... u can bassickle drop it half a globe away and ure torpedos should still find it since any decoys would look like ants ...

weakneses

1. you cant protect it good
2. its slow
3. its hard to hide

You DO realize how hard it would be to get a sub close enough to fire a torpedo at your average NS battleship group, right?

Neutron bombs=WMD. Plus, they can be partially negated by particularly dense armor. DU armor or something, although I'm not sure how the battleship would float. :)

Photon bombs are future tech.

As for the speed, it just needs good reactors and propellers (and a helluva lot of propellers. :))

The problem with your planes is that they can be destroyed before they reach the battleship, by the BS' escorting fleet. Same with subs.

But even if you DID get a sub close enough, NS battleships tend to have several active Torpedo defense systems. Anti-torpedo torpedos and the like.

<-- loves battleships with a passion!

Layarteb Class pwns j00!!!!

Jeez oh this get repetitive...
to adress a few points:
Can battleships/dreadnaughts be sunk? yes but it will be expensive

My Uber orbital scramjet kientic weapon of doom kills them dead so whats the point? that same weapon will also kill any other vessel so whats the point in any other naval vessel?

My carrier and it's airwing will own the battleship from 1000s of miles away.
Of course if the battleship was on it's own would lose just like the carrier on its own would get detroyed quickly by a couple of squadrons of frigates. Appart from frigates and destroyers on patrol missions modern naval vessels never operate on thier own so in reality you have compare a battle group with a battleship and one without and with all other factors being equal the abttleship defiantly tilts the balance.

As to the obviousness of abttleship containign group well they aren't any more obvious than carriers... and to be honest on NS large naval groups can't really hide.

My Uber orbital scramjet kientic weapon of doom kills them dead so whats the point?My SLKMs don't use scramjets.
that same weapon will also kill any other vessel so whats the point in any other naval vessel?If the weapon is launched by an ICBM or similar, it won't be accurate enough to necessarily hit a smaller ship.
so in reality you have compare a battle group with a battleship and one without and with all other factors being equal the abttleship defiantly tilts the balance.How so?

What's the gun's muzzle velocity? "Big Gun" (which I admit was not designed to simulate such large guns) says its range would be less than 10,000 yards.
I think it'd be easy (but expensive) to stop.

sorry to sound like an idiot, is "big gun" a computer program, if so is it on the internet?

Your missing the point if you loaded a battleship with missiles it could carry HUGE ones capable of greater range and payload than other ship2ship missiles and thusfore the threat from other ships is all but elemenated. As for ICBMs. ect. ships don't just stand still. They move and ICBMs can be shot down (at elast Bush claims so) if you had a squadren of about a dozen of these with proper escort it would be all but invincible.

sorry to sound like an idiot, is "big gun" a computer program, if so is it on the internet?Yes, and yes. I'm not aware of any malware on the page linked to below, but I can't guarantee it's not there.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Lyonesse/software.htm
Your missing the point if you loaded a battleship with missiles it could carry HUGE ones capable of greater range and payload than other ship2ship missiles and thusfore the threat from other ships is all but elemenated.In general, doubling the warhead size quadruples the weight of the missile if speed and range are to remain the same. Bigger missiles are easier to shoot down.
As for ICBMs. ect. ships don't just stand still.They also don't move randomly.
ICBMs can be shot down (at elast Bush claims so)If you don't get the missile while it's ascending, I don't think you'll stop the KE warhead at all.

If you don't get the missile while it's ascending, I don't think you'll stop the KE warhead at all.

That's not what bush claims. Anyway its easy enough to bring down an ICBM MIRV all you need is a missile. Its actullay quite easy to when you know where its coming from. ooc: how do i get resurected?

Anyway its easy enough to bring down an ICBM MIRV all you need is a missile. Its actullay quite easy to when you know where its coming from.Is a regular MIRV a one-meter-diameter sphere traveling at 6-11 km/s?
ooc: how do i get resurected?http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=277695

MIRVs aren't thaaaaaat big. Besides with a good radar system it could be identified and taken out with relitive ease

My SLKMs don't use scramjets.
Not a direct reffereance to you in anyway just to the generic Uber weapons that get repeatedly mentioned in threads where "kill the battleship!" comes up. The same reply can also apply to nukes

If the weapon is launched by an ICBM or similar, it won't be accurate enough to necessarily hit a smaller ship.
true but then you tend to go for a decent degree of realism with your solutions, some orbital "rods of god" are mentioned as having pin point accuracy. Again as my comment was aimed at the generic mega ship killer/nuke these tend to be able to apprently target anything.

How so?

Well if you take 2 naval battle groups of equal size and roughly equal class spread but replace a criuser in oen fleet with a battleship then suddenly that fleet has a bit more in the way of surviveability and perhaps even hitting power (if you can get within 40km for strictly RL systems).
Of course this would never happen but then as with everything it all coesm down to how you use your fleets.


Battleships are not the be all and end of naval warfare they need supporting units and those supporting units benefit from them its all a question of balance and role fufilment.

MIRVs aren't thaaaaaat big.Eek, they're puny.
I'm looking for info on MIRV interception and I'm not finding any...Can you help?
Not a direct reffereance to you in anyway just to the generic Uber weapons that get repeatedly mentioned in threads where "kill the battleship!" comes up.Okay.
Well if you take 2 naval battle groups of equal size and roughly equal class spread but replace a criuser in oen fleet with a battleship then suddenly that fleet has a bit more in the way of surviveability and perhaps even hitting power (if you can get within 40km for strictly RL systems).Ah, I was thinking of the situation differently.

I think a battleship would make good mobile weapons platform. Add some ICBM:s,lot of cruise missiles and big guns with mechanically assisted loading system. Even a gun about the size of Hitler's famed Gustav with good assisted loading system could fire quite fast. The barrel would not bear that however. Gustav's barrel was badly worn after about 100 shots.
Intense heating of barrel would also produce some problems.

Edit:
Intresting observation
Doujin's guns are very close to size of Gustav.

OOC:
Funny sidenote
Nice name btw. for a battleship, you know what i mean ? ;)

What's the gun's muzzle velocity? "Big Gun" (which I admit was not designed to simulate such large guns) says its range would be less than 10,000 yards.
I think it'd be easy (but expensive) to stop.


Big Gun gave 95,000 yards for a Doujin gun with conventional propellant :/ You have to remember that the guns on the Doujin are more akin to the Bull superguns as oppossed to the traditional battleship gun, as well employign Electro-Thermo-Chemical technology for a little boost. You can expect a 3,500 fps exit velocity though. Before you badger me on supergun length, please read my previous post.

Easy in theory, at the end of the day its just a question of piling on the ammo till the things die. Its just making sure the Doujin doesn't kill ya before then.

As for your big sphere of doom, I should point out that even a minor hit will deflect it off course, which, over the distance it seems to travel will mean missing the target by several miles.

Big Gun gave 95,000 yards for a Doujin gun with conventional propellant :/Hmmm...
You can expect a 3,500 fps exit velocity though.Argh, now it's giving me more than 95,000 yards. If the picture of the Doujin isn't to scale, that would explain why my previous results were so low.
Before you badger me on supergun length, please read my previous post.I did.

*Shrugs* Doujin's said that KE weapons launched from that high up will kill it.

It is technically to scale, though you would need an interior turret diagram for true gun length. The model should have given you a long-like length-calibre ratio (about 80?)

Anyway...the ship was designed by me for Doujin. And you are right, if the ball did impact it would cause a hella lot of damage.

It is technically to scale, though you would need an interior turret diagram for true gun length. The model should have given you a long-like length-calibre ratio (about 80?)O.o I think I got about eight without taking into account the barrel continuing inside the turret...That would certainly explain the low ranges I was getting.

Time out. You tell me you think you can hit a battleship with a meter-radius metal ball fired from orbit, with any degree of accuracy? Gimme a break.

1. The battleship is moving, and can move quite rapidly and erratically, deliberately to dodge things. If a group of ships comes under fire they will maneuver rapidly, as much so as they can without hitting one another.

2. A battleship is such a tiny target for an ICBM missile that it isn't even funny. They are designed to hit within a few hundred meters (at best) of a static target. A moving, tiny target would be virtually impossible to hit, especially because once your missile "goes ballistic," there is pretty much no way to make course adjustments.


As for everything else, battleships do not really fit in all that well for RL, ship-to-ship combat, although their role as shore bombarders is unparalleled. On Nationstates, however, where nations can spend fortunes to get many battleships, with nuclear reactors, trimaran hulls, and 18'"+ guns, and the sheer preponderance of nations makes naval confrontations much more close-in than it would probably be in RL, they come into their own.

It takes several missile hits to damage the superstructure of a battleship enough to seriously harm its effectiveness, especially since the most vital things would be armored and IN THE HULL; with electronics being as they are, there is no reason for the command center and firing controls to be topside. On the other hand, it takes ONE VOLLEY of battleship shells to utterly wreck anything smaller than an aircraft carrier, and three or four volleys would sink that multibilliondollar carrier like no one's business.

If you have a properly supported battleship group, with carriers and antimissile ships and destroyers/corvettes/frigates for support, and get in close, any carrier group is doomed. And that fact is cool enough for folks to build battleships :)

1. The battleship is moving, and can move quite rapidly and erratically, deliberately to dodge things. If a group of ships comes under fire they will maneuver rapidly, as much so as they can without hitting one another.I was under the impression that Doujins are rather clumsy. However, yes, an aware or cautious target can avoid the SLKM.
2. A battleship is such a tiny target for an ICBM missile that it isn't even funny.A Doujin is not a tiny target for an ICBM with a CEP of 100 meters.

a shell from a BS explodes on contact a tomahawk doesnt it can go into a bunker before going off. a Bs shell would just damage the outside of a bunker

That is not true. Most shells used on the Battleship are designed with penetration capabilities, and have delayed fuses. And shells have twice the explosive power of tomahawks.

A Doujin is not a tiny target for an ICBM with a CEP of 100 meters.

However, you have to take into account the fact that, between the time that you launch it and when the projectile *should* impact, even a massive and unwieldy battleship will have moved some distance, in potentially any direction. Even if you have the ICBM "sight" the targets and line up your MIRV projectiles, it takes several minutes for said projectiles to actually impact, IIRC, and during those several minutes that ship will be moving. Even if the ship can only make 20 knots, it can easily move several hundred meters in a few minutes.

While fine for hitting anything not moving, ICBMs are just too ponderous to hit something as precise as a ship, at least not yet. Now if you could detach finned projectiles which guide themselves in, that would just be plain nasty :)

Easy green has no idea what he's talking about. I suggest no one pay him too much attention. How the hell would you kill a ship with contact-detonation projectiles? That's like firing a bullet at someone which explodes as soon as the tip impacts their flesh.


The ideal battleship, IMHO, would be capable of incredible speeds (60 knots or more, which would require a hyperfoil or multiple-hull design AND multiple reactors AND an insane drive system AND constant maintenance), allowing it to hunt down fleeing carriers and escorts and then blast them to the bottom one by one, with equally fast destroyers/cruisers/etc. for support.

On the other hand, a much more limited but still immensely useful application in NS would be to use a battleship or battlecruiser to get in close enough to sink the enemy's Aegis ships, allowing the rest of the fleet to rain missiles with relative impunity (the Aegis really doesn't even mount armor at all, not even enough to shield against armor-piercing bullets).

Every type of ship is useful as long as the other types of ships are around to help it out.

OOC:However, you have to take into account the fact that, between the time that you launch it and when the projectile *should* impact, even a massive and unwieldy battleship will have moved some distance, in potentially any direction.That depends on how maneuverable it is. But yea, I'd have a lot better luck hitting it in port.

your missing the point, its bloody near impossible to sink a battleship its been proven.
Tell that to the crew of the USS Arizona.

yes i know if you get direct hits in certain areas anyship would be gone in a instant. ie HMS hood that was the pride of the royal navy yet one round into its magazines and you left with nothing.
In NS the battleship does have a clear lead on being the most destructive ship. but in RL im saying its time has passed.

yes i know if you get direct hits in certain areas anyship would be gone in a instant. ie HMS hood that was the pride of the royal navy yet one round into its magazines and you left with nothing.
In NS the battleship does have a clear lead on being the most destructive ship. but in RL im saying its time has passed.

HMS Hood wasn't a battleship, though.

good point shit..... it was a battlecruiser god sorry all. but the point is still there one hit in the wrong place and its all over.

Personally, I think the 30" guns are overcompinsation for something =) but I've had this argument with freethinkers and doujin before, and I won't do it again.

Rods from god aren't viable... simply too inaccurate; you'd need to hit the ship while it was in harbor. The Doujin has a maximum speed of 30 knots, and my Nelson II class dreadnaught has a maximum speed of 45 knots using fastship technology (RL tech... this actually exists).

As for the people who claim that a BB's deck can't be heavily armored, my DN's have, using advanced composite materials that are available today, a deck armor rating of well over 30"... and the main belt is three times that. And mine are about 1/10th the size of the doujin. I'm not convinced that modern aircraft could kill a battleship, they simply can't carry enough of a payload; especially not carrier born planes. A T-160 Blackjack or a B-1 might be able to do some damage... assuming it got through the SAMs.

Rods from god aren't viable... simply too inaccurate; you'd need to hit the ship while it was in harbor. The Doujin has a maximum speed of 30 knots, and my Nelson II class dreadnaught has a maximum speed of 45 knots using fastship technology (RL tech... this actually exists).

'rods from god' would be extreamle acurate against super ships like the liberator or a doujin. They cant move eraticly so you can gaurentee they will be at a point by the time the rod hits

Alright. Rods from god. You're telling me that the warship couldn't take evasive action in the time it takes for the rod to travel 28 000 km? Or, lets just take it from 100km, at which point the rod would be red hot and show up on IR sensors like an angry boil. Traveling a 6km/s, it would take the rod 16 seconds to reach the target. The doujin would be traveling at more than 15m/s, which means it will have traveled about 250m. So the rod needs to be aimed 250m in front of the center of the ship, which means its still going to hit. All the doujin would need to do is back water with rudder full to port, and the bow would swing out of the way. The rod might clip the starbord hull, but nothing serious. And this is assuming that Doujin's SDI operators are completely incompitant and don't notice the rod being fired in orbit.

Alright. Rods from god. You're telling me that the warship couldn't take evasive action in the time it takes for the rod to travel 28 000 km? Or, lets just take it from 100km, at which point the rod would be red hot and show up on IR sensors like an angry boil. Traveling a 6km/s, it would take the rod 16 seconds to reach the target. The doujin would be traveling at more than 15m/s, which means it will have traveled about 250m. So the rod needs to be aimed 250m in front of the center of the ship, which means its still going to hit. All the doujin would need to do is back water with rudder full to port, and the bow would swing out of the way. The rod might clip the starbord hull, but nothing serious. And this is assuming that Doujin's SDI operators are completely incompitant and don't notice the rod being fired in orbit.

Now explain how a doujin is suddenly going to turn with any speed without snapping its rudders off when it would be really buggered and using some models i can easily get soem projectiles moveing at 26km/s

A Battleship can be still used for Naval Fire Suppor, all it need is good point-defence systems (CIWS, RAM, Goalkeeper, Meroka, Dardo), one cheap ASW/Area Defense Escort (FFG-7), and a pocket carrrier (even a container ship) with 6/8 VSTOL plaes for air defence. Then you don´t need cruise missiles (baned under the MCTR for most countries) or tu use your precious, expensive jet firghters in a landing.
Long life double B's
Admiral Drummond
1st Lord of the Sea
Commonwealth of Neptunia and Navalia :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:

Ah... my mistake, the doujin doesn't use rudders, it uses vectored waterjets... so there's no chance that the rudder would snap off. Aditionally, it doesn't really need to turn very far, just deaccelerate and swing the bow. You'd have to lead it with the rod, so slowing down would cause the projectile to hit in the bow section where the ship is narrower... swinging slightly would pull the bow out of the projectile's path. aditionally, I assumed the doujin's first indication of the rod would be at 100km... considering the launcher would be more like 28000km (even with your inflated terminal velocity, that's about an hour of manouvering/detection time from the launch to impact), you have no idea what manouvers the doujin is going to do, and doujin has very effective SDI sensors, it's optimistic to expect that the rod will land within 2km of the doujin.

If battleships are dead, then I'm selling ghosts: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=342454

My Tyrant-class and Imperator-class battleships are more than practicle for the NS world.

And yes, this is a half-hidden shameless plug.... :)

good point shit..... it was a battlecruiser god sorry all. but the point is still there one hit in the wrong place and its all over.

Hood went down because it had weak deck armour. By comparison, Bismarck didn't, and took a hell of a kicking before it went under.

yeah i know i said that bout the bismark earlyer it got its supper structure demolished before it sank. hood go a shot straight through the deck into the magazine

Rods from god aren't viable... simply too inaccurate; you'd need to hit the ship while it was in harbor.I wouldn't necessarily need to, but it would help.
You're telling me that the warship couldn't take evasive action in the time it takes for the rod to travel 28 000 km?Are you telling me that every time any sort of rocket launches all the navies in the world take evasive action?
Or, lets just take it from 100km, at which point the rod would be red hot and show up on IR sensors like an angry boil.So?
Traveling a 6km/s, it would take the rod 16 seconds to reach the target.It re-enters the atmosphere at 11km/s, and has slowed down to 6km/s by the time it hits the target.
The doujin would be traveling at more than 15m/s, which means it will have traveled about 250m. So the rod needs to be aimed 250m in front of the center of the ship, which means its still going to hit.The Doujin is 981m long and 350m wide. Using your estimated travel distance, if I aim for the center of the ship, I hit it whether it reverses direction or continues going forward.
And this is assuming that Doujin's SDI operators are completely incompitant and don't notice the rod being fired in orbit.I probably wouldn't launch it from orbit.
so slowing down would cause the projectile to hit in the bow section where the ship is narrowerI think 422 tons of TNT would do a lot of damage, even if it hit the bow.
your inflated terminal velocityIt's not inflated for this size a sphere. If a wanted to use a smaller sphere, it would be.