NationStates Jolt Archive

Tyrandis Statement Regarding TVM-84 Development:

The Imperial Triumvirate is engaged in the design, implementation, and ultimate adoption of an airlaunched munition capable of igniting and setting off the ammunition magazine of a naval vessel.

As many may know, the USS Arizona was totally destroyed at Pearl Harbor after just one bomb with a delayed fuse from a Japanese Zero caused a chain reaction with the ship's ammunition.

Today, virtually all sea-going vessels maintain this vulnerablity; therefore, in order to bolster our arsenal against the influx of massive ships designed by a variety of nations, Tyrandis is searching for a weapon that can fully exploit this fundamental weakness.

Despite efforts to increase protection of the modern warship's magazine, we have found that a few well-placed "bunker-busters" from a TSB-8 bomber can annihilate even an Iowa-class. However, this method of attack is highly difficult to complete, considering the defenses today's fleet has against low-flying aircraft.

Therefore, Tyrandis Military Systems has been developing an Air-to-Surface guided weapon, under the designation TVM-84. However, we have run into several difficulties regarding the missile, which our best and brightest cannot solve:

-Guidance system
-Warhead
-Missile body composite

We have already completed a scramjet engine for the propulsion system, as well as the missile's fuel supply.

Project goals:
-30 inch armor penetration
-Hypersonic speeds around Mach 6.5
-Effective guidance systems, able to direct missile to ammunition magazine

Tyrandis seeks business partners for the TVM-84, as well as technical support. Everyone who chooses to invest in this project will be granted full production rights.

We would be interested in this project.

Well Crookfur went for a rahter simple half baked solution to our weapon need:
take a 5000lb bunker buster, add paveway IV based giudance (IIR and GPS) a massive set of diamod back wings and a pair of rocket boosters.

basically it gets upto 80,000ft and then glides down witha rnage of over 100km.
It ain't pretty or terribly brilliant but it works...

Well Crookfur went for a rahter simple half baked solution to our weapon need:
take a 5000lb bunker buster, add paveway IV based giudance (IIR and GPS) a massive set of diamod back wings and a pair of rocket boosters.

basically it gets upto 80,000ft and then glides down witha rnage of over 100km.
It ain't pretty or terribly brilliant but it works...

Hmmm... your idea is intriguing, but speed would be lacking, leaving it vulnerable to AEGIS and CIWS interception.

However, we find that the Paveway IV system is usable for the TVM-84; our original idea was to use laser targeting, but it was very difficult for the missile to make contact with the ammunition magazine.

Tyrandis thanks you for your assistance.

1. Delivery System
a. Stealthy Cruise Missile with speed of Mach 1-2, max. altitude of
55,000 ft. with
an internal bay capable of carrying ~2,000 pound munition.
b. Air and sea launchable.
c. 50 lbs internal warhead.
2. Submunition
a. 2000 lbs. cylindrical munition with needle nosecone. Plastic case and
nosecone with heavy plastic fins.
b. Thin black RAM coating on outer layer.
c. Only radar reflective material will be detonater and internal gyroscope.

The Cruise Missile will fly at 55,000 ft. above target, image target with active radar and optical before deploying submunition. Using initial guidance from cruise missile the submunition will fly at a predetermined spot where, according to the missile, the target will be. Things like Aircraft Carriers and Battleships don't slow down or turn quickly, so using an internal gyroscope and spin stabilization from the fins the submunition will impact approx. at that spot. The submunition will be all but invisible, with next to no metal, no propulsion and coated in RAM you can't see it with IR or Radar. The cruise missile is more vulnerable, but as it is flying very high, is much smaller the an aircraft and is stealth it will be hard to intercept before delivery of submunition. After delivery the cruise missile will attack another ship, either it get intercepted or distracts gunners before impacting. A fairly accurate and nearly indetectable antiship weapon, several will incompacitate all but the heavyist of ships, and more after the first will surely destroy it. Even a massive heap of armor can only take so many hits by 2000 lbs bombs. Even if you have thousands of ships with thousands of radars the amount of metal in this is so tiny that you wouldn't be able to pick it out of the background. If anyone wants to argue this I will be more then happy.

Estimated Cost per Missile: $2-4 Million
Cost of super battleship/carrier: $2-4 Billion(at least)

OOC: Your post inspired me to this, so I suppose that I should be nice and work on it together with you ;)

1. Delivery System
a. Stealthy Cruise Missile with speed of Mach 1-2, max. altitude of
55,000 ft. with
an internal bay capable of carrying ~2,000 pound munition.
b. Air and sea launchable.
c. 50 lbs internal warhead.
2. Submunition
a. 2000 lbs. cylindrical munition with needle nosecone. Plastic case and
nosecone with heavy plastic fins.
b. Thin black RAM coating on outer layer.
c. Only radar reflective material will be detonater and internal gyroscope.

The Cruise Missile will fly at 55,000 ft. above target, image target with active radar and optical before deploying submunition. Using initial guidance from cruise missile the submunition will fly at a predetermined spot where, according to the missile, the target will be. Things like Aircraft Carriers and Battleships don't slow down or turn quickly, so using an internal gyroscope and spin stabilization from the fins the submunition will impact approx. at that spot. The submunition will be all but invisible, with next to no metal, no propulsion and coated in RAM you can't see it with IR or Radar. The cruise missile is more vulnerable, but as it is flying very high, is much smaller the an aircraft and is stealth it will be hard to intercept before delivery of submunition. After delivery the cruise missile will attack another ship, either it get intercepted or distracts gunners before impacting. A fairly accurate and nearly indetectable antiship weapon, several will incompacitate all but the heavyist of ships, and more after the first will surely destroy it. Even a massive heap of armor can only take so many hits by 2000 lbs bombs. Even if you have thousands of ships with thousands of radars the amount of metal in this is so tiny that you wouldn't be able to pick it out of the background. If anyone wants to argue this I will be more then happy.

Estimated Cost per Missile: $2-4 Million
Cost of super battleship/carrier: $2-4 Billion(at least)

OOC: Your post inspired me to this, so I suppose that I should be nice and work on it together with you ;)

Hmm... This weapon of yours sounds quite nice, but what about heat signatures from the exhaust?

However, we have found that a thermal coating applied to the thin composite RAM skin can protect our missile from being burnt up by the extreme speeds; ideally, the TVM-84 will pierce the target's armor with sheer kinetic force and then detonate its payload inside the ship.

The cruise missile itslef will be at 55,000 ft., a bit out of the range of most IR sensors, the submunition has no active thrust, just gravity. Thus you can't see it, also the munition should not get going fast enough to burn up. Even a powered descent from 55,000 doesn't cause enough friction to burn something up or else this missile would be easily visibile on IR for the descent. We estimate that IR sensors on the ships will be able to pick up the munition at about 1,000-2,000 ft. from leading edge friction, but that will be too little too late. At that point the munition itself should be at about Mach 1.2 or so.

Hmmm... your idea is intriguing, but speed would be lacking, leaving it vulnerable to AEGIS and CIWS interception.

However, we find that the Paveway IV system is usable for the TVM-84; our original idea was to use laser targeting, but it was very difficult for the missile to make contact with the ammunition magazine.

Tyrandis thanks you for your assistance.

actually Paveway IV is laser and GPS i just adapted it and sort of merged it with the AGM-130 and an IIR sensor.

As to vunerability to dfenses, in the attack pahse its a 5000lb lump of metal commign straight down from 80,000ft so a mere wall of 20-30mm DU ammo isn't going to do much...

Oh and it is a rahter massive cosntruction you can at a push fit one in each bay on a B-2.

actually Paveway IV is laser and GPS i just adapted it and sort of merged it with the AGM-130 and an IIR sensor.

As to vunerability to dfenses, in the attack pahse its a 5000lb lump of metal commign straight down from 80,000ft so a mere wall of 20-30mm DU ammo isn't going to do much...

Oh and it is a rahter massive cosntruction you can at a push fit one in each bay on a B-2.

OOC: What about the vaunted S-500? I'm quite sure that can bring it down, easily. Also, I figure the IIR sensor would help in targeting the munitions depot aboard a ship.

IC:

We have just completed the first prototype TVM-84; we should be able to begin production in earnest within two months.

well i suppose it might. Of course the weapon doesn't actually have any signature after the intial boost/loft phase and it is rahter vunerable during the inital launch segment (as is the launch aircraft you have to get within 100-150miles to use these hence why we have other "special" weapons to use alongside it).

if a missile can hit a 2000lb JDAM then it can hit this if not well then its very debatable.

Actually on our versions we allow command giudance operation now again for super precise targeting but generally we just let the onboard systems judge the best target location based on the relative size/shape of the vessel.

I would be looking at using a navalised version of the Massive Ordinance Penetrator.

I would be looking at using a navalised version of the Massive Ordinance Penetrator.

OOC: I dunno. It's a bit too heavy for effective use from carrier-based planes, but the total penetration capability makes me drool...

My original idea was to design a scramjet-powered delayed-fuse missile, which would allow a pilot to target approx. where the ammunition magazine is held and thus sink a ship with minimal effort.

I don't think only a few ASMs are going to do the trick in any instance. The CDM defensive mount (which is loosely based on the rolling airframe missile system, combined with a 40mm cannon) can (in theory, weather the manufacturer's claims are to be trusted is another thing entirely) engage 15 ASMs at a time with missiles and gunfire.

And I'm sure other people have similar systems. So I think the best idea is a cheap missile that you can overwhelm enemy defenses with.

Of course, fear of ASMs is one reason why the LRRN's so decentralized- by that I mean there's a lot of smaller, faster ships.

But what is the Massive Ordenance Penetrator?

well i suppose it might. Of course the weapon doesn't actually have any signature after the intial boost/loft phase and it is rahter vunerable during the inital launch segment (as is the launch aircraft you have to get within 100-150miles to use these hence why we have other "special" weapons to use alongside it).

if a missile can hit a 2000lb JDAM then it can hit this if not well then its very debatable.

Actually on our versions we allow command giudance operation now again for super precise targeting but generally we just let the onboard systems judge the best target location based on the relative size/shape of the vessel.

Any weapon is going to be vulnerable during its boost phase, although this is an adapted cruise missile. It could be launched 300 miles away, cruise at Mach .5 for 200 miles then make a supersonic dash into position, take the snap shot and and release the submunition.

You can hit a 2000 lbs JDAM, so what. The submunition is, for all intensive purposes, invisible up until about 1,000 ft. or so. At this point it is going Mach 1.2, and only leading edge friction makes it visible. On the other hand a JDAM is visible to radar, going significantly less then Mach and the delivery craft is not running interference for it. Due to the inherent inaccuracy the submunition will only be effective on supercarrier or larger ships, the larger the better chance of hitting. On a standard super carrier today you would have about a 10% chance of missing, at best, but this is for ships that are possibly klicks long.

OOC: Scellia's gonna call this something else beside the TNM-84 'Seamens Bane', as soon as my military get their act together and picks one.

I say just use heavy long-range cannons. Depending on how you like them, they can be chemical, railguns, or just standard powder-putters. Then use piercing rounds, then some high-explosives. If you really want a missiles, use splitter. With the proper cautions, it can have a radar range that allows it to split before it can be detected. Sure, the break-offs will be dumbfire, but it'll pepper the entire deck. At worst, it'll cripple most of the guns, blow some holes in it, and that isn't really a bad thing.

Any weapon is going to be vulnerable during its boost phase, although this is an adapted cruise missile. It could be launched 300 miles away, cruise at Mach .5 for 200 miles then make a supersonic dash into position, take the snap shot and and release the submunition.

You can hit a 2000 lbs JDAM, so what. The submunition is, for all intensive purposes, invisible up until about 1,000 ft. or so. At this point it is going Mach 1.2, and only leading edge friction makes it visible. On the other hand a JDAM is visible to radar, going significantly less then Mach and the delivery craft is not running interference for it. Due to the inherent inaccuracy the submunition will only be effective on supercarrier or larger ships, the larger the better chance of hitting. On a standard super carrier today you would have about a 10% chance of missing, at best, but this is for ships that are possibly klicks long.

OOC: Scellia's gonna call this something else beside the TNM-84 'Seamens Bane', as soon as my military get their act together and picks one.



OOC: my post was in defense of my admitedly cheap and nasty system not an attack on yours.

OOC: I didn't interpret it that way, sorry if I sounded a little defensive. I just want to throughly prove that this system works, if it does that this may invalidate all the ultra massive ships. Billions down the tube for those who built them if a war with a country with these ever occured. Before I said that a supercarrier is 2-4 billion, I understated that, they actually run from 8-12 Billion and that is small for most of the super ships.

OOC: Don't mean to pour cold water on the idea, but I think this may only be effective against the poorly designed ones. Doujin has said that the Doujin is designed to withstand many hits from 16" shells, which weigh around 2,000lbs