NationStates Jolt Archive

Hello and good afternoon. Here at Artitsan Blankoch Shipbuilding, two new designs are being made. The first is a long range diesel electric submarine, and the second a nuclear attack submarine. Although, the SSN maybe cancelled, as the SSK is expected to far surpase the SSN. The SSK, has been given the Project designation ABSK-04. ABSK-04 will make use of several features to lower its sonar image, including a sonar absorbing gel, double hull with sound proofing between hulls (like that of a recording studio). A Ceramic hull is also being considered to lower sonar as well as operating depth. Armament has yet to be decided, but it will have VLS tubes for Anti-Shipping, AA, Land Attack, and ASW. The SSN will be developed after the ABSK-04, if there is a need for it.

Currently working on this Project:
Artitsa.
Communist Rule.
IDF.

I'll be willing to provide funds and manpower. Telegram me and we'll talk.

Magick gel you say? Neat! *marks this down as Future-Tech*

Please, New Empire and Scandavian States and now you with magick gels that magically absorb sonar and do other stuff.. yay!

Besides the fact that Aerogel can shatter easily, it is an excellent acoustic absorbation material. This could be their "gel." Need not be such an ass, Doujin.

Thank you CR. Care to bring some expertise to this project?

I may... I consider my submarines in excellent standing but I suppose the traditional NS concept of flinging mounds of crap on something, claiming it is because they have a large budget, and bragging about them in every conflict wouldn't hurt. ;)

;)
This submarine will be designed to slip in unnoticed, and be very stealthy. The idea is to perhaps move into an enemy port and lay mines, or Torpedo a major ship. That sorta jazz. I've got plenty of Idea's to make it incredibly silent.

When we have a full team, I suggest you make an invisionfree forum and our team may brainstorm there.

I would be willing to give money. Telegram me.

Do you have MSN? Making a Forum is far to time consuming for this type of project. MSN or AIM is just as good.

Wait, you're favoring a diesel submarine over a nuclear one!?! :confused: With modern and even future technology levels, diesel submarines are an ancient anachronism with limited range, size, speed and power, although they are incomparable in noise-level.

Do you have MSN? Making a Forum is far to time consuming for this type of project. MSN or AIM is just as good.

ikranoplan2@hotmail.com

Wait, you're favoring a diesel submarine over a nuclear one!?! :confused: With modern and even future technology levels, diesel submarines are an ancient anachronism with limited range, size, speed and power, although they are incomparable in noise-level.

Indeed I am. The stealth offered by a Diesel/electric submarine is to much to pass up. I plan to use the latest technology in Batteries, and increased size to allow for a larger Battery to give longer range and faster speed.

IDF shipyards may be able to contribute here. We do ask if we would be allowed to sell them after a certain period.

We have been researching AIP systems. The SSK should have them. IDF shipyards has some experience in SSKs and understands that any SSK on battery is quieter than an SSN. Add us in on this project please.

We ask for parameters being considered:
target speed
target size and displacement
weapon load and capabilities (will it have VLS, cruise missile capabilities or mine capabilities,

these are just some of the many questions to be considered

It does not matter... The power provided by batteries will never be equivalent to that provided by a nuclear fission or fusion reactor... Your submarine won't be able to go beyond 18 knots per hour below water and 32 knots per hour on the surface...

It does not matter... The power provided by batteries will never be equivalent to that provided by a nuclear fission or fusion reactor... Your submarine won't be able to go beyond 18 knots per hour below water and 32 knots per hour on the surface...
speed just gives away a position, I think ARtista (and me if accepted to the project) should pursue both options. I add that speed isn't too important as it gives away your position

oh 5CN, you have little imagination or knowledge. You realize there have been SSK's that have reached 20+ knots. And what of the Kilo or Amur class, the best diesel Electric submarines in the world.

IDF, you will be able to sell it after a set period of time, but people should be screened first.

It has not been decieded yet between VLS and Mines, but there will be 660mm torpedo tubes. We expect the Submarine to be rather large to accomidate the systems we plan to put in. We're thinking Akula size.

Well, with the current fact that there are supercavitating torpedoes that go 300-400 knots per hour, you're submarine will be pwned...

oh 5CN, you have little imagination or knowledge. You realize there have been SSK's that have reached 20+ knots. And what of the Kilo or Amur class, the best diesel Electric submarines in the world.

IDF, you will be able to sell it after a set period of time, but people should be screened first.

It has not been decieded yet between VLS and Mines, but there will be 660mm torpedo tubes. We expect the Submarine to be rather large to accomidate the systems we plan to put in. We're thinking Akula size.

The SSK should be smaller, try Sturgeon size (300 feet long) most SSKs are 240 feet long (like a Kilo or Upholder). The SSN should be larger.

5CN... you exasperate me. What makes you think a Nuclear Sub has a better chance against a SuperCav torpedo? For one, the SSN will be detected much easier then the SSK, therefor, the SSN is more at risk to Supercav's. And this SSK will also have the option of fielding our own Supercav torpedoes.

IDF, I concur. We shall make the length of the SSK around 320ft. We need to fit a large battery, engines, propulsion system (I'll explain later ;)), VLS tubes, space for crew, navigation equipment, how buttload of advanced systems, torpedo space, and room for mines. And if theres enough room, perhaps an indoor pool ;) (It is rumoured there are pools on the Typhoon class.)

AIP VS NUCLEAR PROPULSION IN SUBMARINES

With the advances in AIP (air-independant propulsion) technology, the smaller, quieter diesel-electric submarines are coming more and more into favor. With AIP systems currently on the market, the submerged endurance of these submarines has been increased from days to weeks, and further increases could bring their submerged endurance up to three months. Naturally, many are stating how these submarines are almost as good as nuclear boats, while having only a fraction of the cost. However, there is something very important that these individuals either don't know, or are conveniently failing to mention, and this is an important piece of information that shows just how far behind nuclear powered boats AIP subs still are. This tiny little fact is that the 21-day submerged endurance is at the snail's pace of only 3 knots. This means that these ships have an actual submerged range of only 2800 km, which means that in the end, they still can't stray that far (relatively speaking) from friendly bases. Submerged endurance in combat conditions is still measured in hours, and that means that the captain must still husband the boats power supply carefully. With the more advanced conceptual submarines, the range is bumped up to 12,000 km. However, this is still only at 3 knots, and that means that these boats will be very slow in getting where they need to go while running submerged.

Nuclear boats on the other hand, can operate for 3-6 months at a time, and cruise at speeds several times that of the AIP boats. This means that they can actually escort surface ships, and are far more capable when it comes to rapid deployment. The Seawolf, for example, has a tactical speed of 20 knots. That means that it can go 20 knots and still remain quiet enough to stand a reasonable chance of avoiding detection, and this speed can be maintained for a significant period of time. This equals the maximum speed of most DE and AIP subs, and those can't maintain it for more than a few hours.

While AIP subs are getting better at it and are quieter, they're still hopelessly outclassed by nuclear boats in those critical areas. In the end, if you don't have nuclear subs, your submarine force is only a regional power at best. To be a global power, nuclear submarines are still an absolute must.

OOC:limited rangeEven a nuclear submarine is limited by the food supply.
sizeThe depth error associated with a given down-angle is proportional to length; long submarines are not good for navies operating in shallow water (such as Nianacio...a submarine anywhere near the coast must travel in a straight line to avoid hitting the bottom, and even then has to be careful where it goes).
Your submarine won't be able to go beyond 18 knots per hour below waterThe Japanese (IC, Nianacio) built a 19-knot submarine in 1945. More recently, diesel submarines have reached 25 knots submerged.
32 knots per hour on the surface...Well, they can go 20 1/4 knots...

This post is not to be taken as indication of a willingness to help Artitsa make a better submarine.

Chardonay has been considering developing a new deisel sub recently, and would love to be included... we have some ideas for ways to improve speed and acoustics..stablized ultrahigh molecular weight polyethylene mihgt be a good hull coating...

I;d also suggest mines, not VLS... launching missiles makes you a target. Also, swimout torpedos are a must... what do you think is the possibility of making a tender submarine with deisel tanks and a nuclear powerplant that could, hooked to the deisel subs, recharge and refuel them?

I was thinking of that. A sort of Resupply or Mother submarine running on Nuclear propulsion. Definatly worth consideration, and I agree with the mines. I believe it should be an option based upon mission preferences. Doujin does make a few good points, but of course I've already taken these into consideration with my plans, and seeing how this will be the first and only SSK in my navy, I don't care for the most part. We can extend battery life to 12,000km at 3kts, which is fine. Even easier if we can have that resupply/recharging vessel. The simple mission for this vessel is to move into an enemy port and reap havoc undetected.

There will always be a way of detecting your vessel, wether through a Magnetic Anomaly Detector, or active sonar, or other various means of detection.

oooook Doujin. What navy activily uses MAD while they are at port? And of course, There are ways of fooling MAD.

I didn't cite MAD by itself. I said it with conjunction of other detection methods.

AIP VS NUCLEAR PROPULSION IN SUBMARINES

With the advances in AIP (air-independant propulsion) technology, the smaller, quieter diesel-electric submarines are coming more and more into favor. With AIP systems currently on the market, the submerged endurance of these submarines has been increased from days to weeks, and further increases could bring their submerged endurance up to three months. Naturally, many are stating how these submarines are almost as good as nuclear boats, while having only a fraction of the cost. However, there is something very important that these individuals either don't know, or are conveniently failing to mention, and this is an important piece of information that shows just how far behind nuclear powered boats AIP subs still are. This tiny little fact is that the 21-day submerged endurance is at the snail's pace of only 3 knots. This means that these ships have an actual submerged range of only 2800 km, which means that in the end, they still can't stray that far (relatively speaking) from friendly bases. Submerged endurance in combat conditions is still measured in hours, and that means that the captain must still husband the boats power supply carefully. With the more advanced conceptual submarines, the range is bumped up to 12,000 km. However, this is still only at 3 knots, and that means that these boats will be very slow in getting where they need to go while running submerged.

Nuclear boats on the other hand, can operate for 3-6 months at a time, and cruise at speeds several times that of the AIP boats. This means that they can actually escort surface ships, and are far more capable when it comes to rapid deployment. The Seawolf, for example, has a tactical speed of 20 knots. That means that it can go 20 knots and still remain quiet enough to stand a reasonable chance of avoiding detection, and this speed can be maintained for a significant period of time. This equals the maximum speed of most DE and AIP subs, and those can't maintain it for more than a few hours.

While AIP subs are getting better at it and are quieter, they're still hopelessly outclassed by nuclear boats in those critical areas. In the end, if you don't have nuclear subs, your submarine force is only a regional power at best. To be a global power, nuclear submarines are still an absolute must.

-sigh- Doujin, as you LOVE to point out, this is Nationstates. Modern tech here is Present to 2010 or so. Thus, in 5 years, they will probably perfect AIP.

-sigh- Doujin, as you LOVE to point out, this is Nationstates. Modern tech here is Present to 2010 or so. Thus, in 5 years, they will probably perfect AIP.

And some people disagree with that now. And perfection or not, I still don't see AIP being viable in 5 years.

And some people disagree with that now. And perfection or not, I still don't see AIP being viable in 5 years.
Germany's Type 212 and 214 have AIP

the comparison isn't viable... SSNs and SSKs are designed for very different missions.

5CN... you exasperate me. What makes you think a Nuclear Sub has a better chance against a SuperCav torpedo? For one, the SSN will be detected much easier then the SSK, therefor, the SSN is more at risk to Supercav's. And this SSK will also have the option of fielding our own Supercav torpedoes.

That is very true on SSKs being quieter than an SSN allowing better survivability. An AIP SSK will be even better. I suggest fuel cells for the batteries, they last longer

fuel cells need hydrogen and oxygen to run.. you would need to produce both, then store it, then burn it to use a fuel cell... and since hydrogen has such a terrible fuel dencity, it would last for even a shorter time than a lithium ion battery,

Germany's Type 212 and 214 have AIP

Your point? They also have a speed of 3kts running on their hydrogen fuel cell, and have a limited range.

Your point? They also have a speed of 3kts running on their hydrogen fuel cell, and have a limited range.
I know, we are researching better ways for an AIP to become efficient.

I say to hell with sUbs. Just put up sum,, satelittes and throw some BiG Honkey MIssiles on IT!!!!11 lolololol!!!!!11!!1

Just kidding. I've just never been to big in naval warfare. But this sub sounds like something I might actually be interested in. Could you telegram me when it is completed? I would like to buy some.

Artista, our 1st job here is to hammer out what capabilities you want on this sub. Obviously the SSK won't have a wet/dry SEAL shelter, but maybe the SSN will.

I want to know if you want to have a good SAM system on it, like the one mounted on the Upholder class in HMS UNSEEN by Patrick Robinson.

In my opinion, that would be a waste of space. Using it would only attract more attention, and the trick is to stay unseen. If a helecopter is close enough to detect you, shooting it down is the worst thing you could do.

In my opinion, that would be a waste of space. Using it would only attract more attention, and the trick is to stay unseen. If a helecopter is close enough to detect you, shooting it down is the worst thing you could do.

If you read the book, the missile was mounted on the tail rudder, it was a long range SAM capable of taking out high flying supersonic aircraft.

why would a submarine be bothered with doing that? It would give away the sub's position/

why would a submarine be bothered with doing that? It would give away the sub's position/

OOC: The idea is for sneak attacks, they modified it to get planes to "dissappear" and no one knew what happened to them. There is some evidence pointing to the Iranians doing this to a Kilo class they acquired and using a similar system to shoot down airliners. There is a theory that this is what happened to TWA flight 800, we don't need it on this class of subs we are developing, but it could be cool to use and take out unsuspecting bombers who are en route to you.

If you're going to make a submersable SAM ship (Which I already have, actually), I'd use a modified boomer. Replace the ICBMs with VLS tubes, and load them with SAMs

I may... I consider my submarines in excellent standing but I suppose the traditional NS concept of flinging mounds of crap on something, claiming it is because they have a large budget, and bragging about them in every conflict wouldn't hurt. ;)

And then crying and tossing ignore grenades out of their pram when someone thinks up a credible counter to their uberfleet.

BTDTGTT...

The Federation Navy is almost exclusively submarines and submersible platforms. We would be happy to bring our expertise to bear on an area of this project.

For example, look at our U-LIDS coastal defense submarine.
http://phalanx.i8.com/custom4.html

Anything in the way of silencing technology would be great. We need this sub to be virtually undetectable to Sonar, both Passive and Active. If you can also figure out a counter to MAD systems, we'd love to hear it.

oooook Doujin. What navy activily uses MAD while they are at port? And of course, There are ways of fooling MAD.

You routinely use MAD from shore-based maritime patrol aircraft, which are logical defenders of ports.

Hmm, standard range of MAD?

Hmm, standard range of MAD?

Not very far, I think the plane has to nearly pass over the sub.

A paper I just found on the net talks about improving the offset range to 9000 feet, so I guess current systems have even less.

However a sub attacking a port will be constrained to particular paths by the geography, so a patrol aircraft could take advantage of that.

Alternatively you can't hide the port, so you could just run an active sonar defence. Or use submarine nets.

Active sonar usually gets mangled by Aerosol gel. The Subnets... not to sure how to defeat them just yet. Of course I don't have to get right into the harbours, to release my mines that Im developing.

Anything in the way of silencing technology would be great. We need this sub to be virtually undetectable to Sonar, both Passive and Active. If you can also figure out a counter to MAD systems, we'd love to hear it.

It's exactly the presence of superquiet diesel-electric subs which is forcing a swing back from passive to active sonar.

I don't see materials being able to do more than slightly reduce the range or active sonar. Making it too hard for torpedo terminal guidance is unlikely IMO.

IDF can contribute nuclear reactor pump silencing technology. This is key as the pumps are the source of most noise from an SSN. As for both the SSK and SSN, a good rubber layer between the outer and pressure hull can stop most sounds

The best way, but also most expensive way to fool mad is take one out of the Soviet Alfa SSN. Build a titanium outer hull. It is stronger, allows for good speed, greater depth, and is not magnetic thus it can't be detected by MAD. The problem is it is expensive and takes more time to build.

Uh, Doujin, did you not remember the part about me discontinuing the use of the gel in our conversation about it?

Or am I forever shamed with the mark of um... whatever it is.

In any case, FCN and I are currently engaged in such a project, however, while we'd be interested in working with nations like ACS and Communist Rule, we must decline as this project simply does not meet the interests of the UCSNE 'Generation Three Attack Sub Program'.

While SSKs are good for things like coastal defense, they simply don't have what it takes to roll with the big boys on a blue water stage.

However, FCN and I have been investigating the possibility of SSH, hydrogen powered submarines.

Speaking of that... New Empire, we really need to plan out the project...

Uh, Doujin, did you not remember the part about me discontinuing the use of the gel in our conversation about it?

Or am I forever shamed with the mark of um... whatever it is.

In any case, FCN and I are currently engaged in such a project, however, while we'd be interested in working with nations like ACS and Communist Rule, we must decline as this project simply does not meet the interests of the UCSNE 'Generation Three Attack Sub Program'.

While SSKs are good for things like coastal defense, they simply don't have what it takes to roll with the big boys on a blue water stage.

However, FCN and I have been investigating the possibility of SSH, hydrogen powered submarines.

At this moment I'm willing to release that we've decided on an SS/G/B/N...? Anyways, not an SSK.

Sent you a TG about it... Let's not hijack.

Anyway, we are however interested with working with any of the nations here should they be interested in a nuclear sub instead of an SSK.

(Artista, that post was basically confirming my decline of working with you on your sub... I just don't use diesels that much. Sorry.)

I am willing to fund this project. Also, any of my facilities are open to you should you need to use them.

I am grateful for the offers, but as Artista is the main project manager, he will give you our progress of yet and decides who gets to help, fund, etc.

I am grateful for the offers, but as Artista is the main project manager, he will give you our progress of yet and decides who gets to help, fund, etc.
I simply offered. Also, any help you need in gaurding building this submarine would be supplied by us, if you so wish, without our interferance.

I understand, however I feel it is not my right to decide who is to support this project. I merely helped design it.