NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC: OK this is a continuation of this thread http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=343935&page=1

Any nations wishing to join the nuclear club should declare their intention to do so here.

For now, the aims of the Nuclear Club are detailed


AIMS OF THE NS NUCLEAR CLUB

1.To prevent the unnecessary proliferation of nuclear weapons technology

2.To prevent the use of nuclear weapons

3.To foster a greater understanding of the role of nuclear weapons in the context of international relations

4.To develop a greater understanding of nuclear doctrine and its role in strategic study

5.To develop an understanding of nuclear weapons technology and its effects

6.To develop a framework for the development and acquisition of nuclear weapons in the NS setting

7.To create a database of nations possessing nuclear technology and current nuclear inventories

8.All the above should be realistic in approach (i.e no-one REPEAT no-one can claim 5,000 nukes...regardless of who you are, face it there's not enough plutonium and uranium to go around...)





As a first step, I shall make a disclosure of current 's current nuclear weapons inventory in a seperate post.

Well, let's see........... hmmmmmmmmm the Soviet union had aprox. 20 000 nukes..............

I won't join this....

how many nations have nuclear capability in the Real world, not many, in ns there are around 500,000 nations that could say they have nukes, so there wouldnt be enough to go around, your not going to find it on every planet and asteroid either.. so..

I'll join

how many nations have nuclear capability in the Real world, not many, in ns there are around 500,000 nations that could say they have nukes, so there wouldnt be enough to go around, your not going to find it on every planet and asteroid either.. so..

Thats open for debate, maybe there are other materials that could be used for Nuclear weapons other asteroids. Next to that many nations are based on islands that do not really exist. How can you measure their supply of Uranium?
And then we must not forget there are so many nations here that we couldnt stick them on one world, we'd have multiple worlds(XX times Earth). You cant prove your point while your opponents would have problems proving his.

Every country has the ability to recieve the Uranium deposit issue, therefore every country has Uranium deposits.

OOC:Indeed but.. remember one thing.. uraniam isn't the most plentiful element on the planet.. so suddenly producing 5,000 nukes out of nowhere is stretching things a little..

erm i think that your a tiny bit misinformed, it only takes a molicule i mean thats TINY it cant be seen under a microscope you need an electron microscope and that much can blow your hand of if it's right. You only need 3-4 kilograms of purified plutonium to make new york a nice hole in the ground, brobably singe washington, and as people before me have said, read the front of the Sum of All Fears (great movie) dvd case. There is way to much uranium and plutonium to go around. A nuclear reactor can use the same fuel rods for 25 years. thats like not filling you car up with petrol for 25 years. it's a lot. i've nothing against this but just get your facts right first and then i'll be there.


King James II
Regional Delegate to hte Istlands of Tempo

OOC: OK point taken but.. remember.. development of weapons grade uranium is a different matter.. considering the strict controls of technology in place and also the restrictions placed on the movement of nuclear material.. yes there is a lot of Uranium produced in the real world but... its distribution is rather patchy, hence not every nation can suddenly begin processing the stuff..

how many nations have nuclear capability in the Real world, not many, in ns there are around 500,000 nations that could say they have nukes, so there wouldnt be enough to go around, your not going to find it on every planet and asteroid either.. so..

Sorry but i just had to put this in, there are quite a few nations in the real world with nuclear power. Over 30 infact i know that this isnt really groundbreaking but nuclear power dosn't exactly mean nuclear weapons, most of these nations have nuclear powerstations (like the one at the end of our street i live in Hartlepool U.K) the process to distill the weapons grade uranium/plutonium (for the trigger) is a complex task that takes decades to perfect. I mean tiwan is trying to get nuclear weapons but it's taking them years to get the process up and running, this is no mean feat so those are the arguments for and against, please telegram me when you have ammended this.

OOC: Anyhow - as i said previously I would give details of my nations nuclear capability


http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=344306

Personally, I think what i've constructed is an ample detterent force, without the need to suddenly point a 1000+ missiles at people.. this is perhaps my whole issue really, a more realistic approach to nukes, so that people can't just pretend to have larger and larger forces.. whats the point for crissake!!

I see what you mean, but in the real world they have so many so that they can just swindle a few hundred off that actually will be fired in the case of nuclear holocost and the rest is ego, used to be moved around to "hot spots" i mean your intentions are good but they just dont work in the real world, countries just give you a figure that has a few of them missed off and hides them, then they let all the right people know they have them still and that means that the powers wont go to war, nuclear weapons are what keeps a comparitive peace in the world, as if one is launced in a bad way then so are all the others and there is no world left anymore. It's a delecate matter but it keeps me from having nightmares.

OOC:I see your point, but it would give an opportunity for major nuclear nations to place pressure on others to prevent the development of nukes, esp by emerging or unstable nations.. if a weapons inspectorate was created in a UN framework it could be effective... (though all this is rather rich coming from me as a 'rogue' state :) )

The small nation of Mmondor will join the Club.

OOC: I should also probably add that if a non-proliferation treaty were to be created, then any nation could become a signatory.. all it would mean is that they would pledge not to develop or expand thier current nuclear arsenal..

OOC: i was merely making the point there are alot more people, and you only need a few hundred missiles to decimate any.. well thing..

OOC: Also.. one thing that occurs to me, at this exact moment, is how the hell people are able to declare nuclear capbility without testing.. (OK I plead guilty on this..) but any nuclear test is sure to be detected - i.e tremors and peaks in background radiation! So as well as a non-proliferation treaty, there could be a test ban incorporated into it... thoughts anyone??

Right you win me over ill join (since i dont have a nuclear arsenal anyway just a nice big plot of uranium mining and all of my power stations are nuclear. Therse a problem with the test ban, how are you going to know if your deterant han't reached their sel by date? Nuclear weapons have sell by dates so i think that you should have another look at that.

King James and the Peoples of Tempto

OOC: Cool... we can work on that!

Anyway.. here is the preamble to the treaty

Preamble

The undersigned states have declared it their intention to improve world security for current and future generations by committing themselves to curtailing the spread of nuclear weapon technology and halting the testing of such weapons.

Each nation enters into this agreement of their own, free accord and shall abide by it as a matter of honour and principle.

Each nation by agreeing to this Treaty, shall commit themselves to upholding the Treaty with all their ability and shall endeavour to communicate its ideals and principles to those nations not yet signatories themselves.

This treaty is in no way a treaty of mutual assistance or military alliance.

This treaty shall be binding and transgressions against it shall be dealt with by a special agency set up through the instruments of this treaty.

All signatories of this treaty shall be eligible to put forward ammendments to the instruments contained herein through a special agency set up through the instruments of this treaty.

Thinking about it, there's a problem: what if one of us is attacked by someone with 5000 nukes? I mean someone not in the Club.

OOC: That's a slightly different matter and as such a strategic matter.. though think about it this way.. if a nation claims to have 5000 nukes and we effectively control the spread of nuclear weapons and materials.. how can they suddenly produce 5000 nukes from nowhere... in real life, nations cannot realistically produce their own nukes without outside assistance.,..so to this end, the nuclear club can possibly prevent such a nation arising .. ONLY IF NATIONS JOIN THAT IS!! :)

OOC: OK.. here's the treaty so far.. two articles to date.. still haven't thought too much about the test ban etc.. but comments please on it so far.. this is a draft remember..


IC:

NationStates Non-Proliferation and Test Ban Treaty



Preamble

The undersigned states (the Signatories frome hereon) have declared it their intention to improve world security for current and future generations by committing themselves to curtailing the spread of nuclear weapon technology and halting the testing of such weapons.




Founding Principles


Each nation enters into this agreement of their own, free accord and shall abide by it as a matter of honour and principle.

Each nation by agreeing to this Treaty, shall committ themselves to upholding the Treaty with all their ability and shall endeavour to communicate its ideals and principles to those nations not yet signatories themselves.

This treaty is in no way a treaty of mutual assistance of military alliance.

This treaty shall be binding and transgressions against it shall be dealt with by a special agency set up through the instruments of this treaty.

All signatories of this treaty shall be eligible to put forward ammendments to the instruments contained herein through a special agency set up through the instruments of this treaty.





Articles of the Treaty




First Article

Organisations created by the Treaty

For the provisions of the NationStates Non-Proliferation and Test Ban Treaty (the Treaty from here on) to be implemented, two new organisations shall be created. The first shall be the Council of Nuclear States (CNS from here on), the main duties of which shall be the discussion of issues relating to nuclear proliferation and to discuss and implement changes to the Treaty itself. This organisation shall have its own founding charter, which will be published shortly after the introduction of the Treaty.

The second organisation created under the provisions of the Treaty shall be the Nuclear Proliferation Monitoring Group (NPMG from hereon), which shall undertake to assess the spread of nuclear weapons, material and technology throughout the world. The NPMG will report directly to the CNS, making a monthly report on the current state of proliferation. Again, this organisation shall have its own founding charter, which will be published shortly after the introduction of the Treaty.

All signatories will be granted one seat on the CNS, with a majority vote required for motions to be passed <50% + 1 vote>. Ammendments to the Treaty will require a majority vote plus the approval of the Ammendment Panel, representatives of which will be selected by secret ballot on an four-year basis <quarterly IRL>.

The NPMG shall be staffed with experts from member states and the position of chair of the organisation shall be rotated on an annual basis <monthly IRL>. Signatories will be expected to allow NPMG staff to make unannounced visits to their nations and be granted full access to their nuclear arsenals, production facilities and other nuclear sites, as well as co-operating fully with NPMG staff investigations.

Failure to co-operate with the NPMG shall result in the offending nation standing before the CNS to explain its actions and could lead to expulsion from the Treaty organisation.

Objections to the work of either organisation can be raised at the meeting of the CNS, where peer nations will be able to vote on whether or not the objection is sustained. If an objection is sustained, the CNS will debate the issue and come to a resolution.





Second Article

Constraints on production and sale of Nuclear Weapons

As of the moment of signing the Treaty, signatories shall ensure they do not add to their nuclear arsenal:

All nuclear weapon production programs in place at the time of signing shall cease with immediate effect.

All nuclear weapons on order from other nations at the time of signing shall be cancelled.

All nuclear weapons being developed for sale to other nations shall be cancelled.

All nuclear weapons in transit from or to other nations shall be returned to their place of origin.

All movement of nuclear weapon technology to and from signatories shall stop, whether it be between signatories or signatory and non-signatory.


Each signatory shall make a record of their current nuclear arsenal and submit this to the NPMG for the purposes of a report on the extent of nuclear weapons in Treaty states.

Data from this report shall be used to for comparison by the NPMG when making inspections of Treaty nation's nuclear arsenals.

Any nation found breaking any of the above measures shall stand before the CNS to explain their actions and measures will be taken against transgressors as deemed necessary by Signatories.

OOC: If the CNS etc is creted then it would be an idea to get a sticky thread created for all its business... just a suggestion..

The draft is very good.

The UN has a small logo for the members, we could do the same...

[I have no intention of joining this club, but I'd like to point something out. The US, in the last fifty years, built 30,000 nuclear weapons and currently has at least 5,000 of them in its inventory. To say that no nation can have 5,000 is bogus. Furthermore, not all nuclear weapons rely on Uranium and Plutonium, and not necessarily even hydrogen.]

We find it amusing that you Mon-Keigh create weapons that will inevitably result in the destruction of your planet. You then make threats in that strange tongue of yours, then launch some crude missiles in celebration of your idiocy. The radiation caused by uranium and plutonium will eventually destroy your "lush", "green" and "verdent" planet, causing the obliteration of the Homo Sapien and all other forms of life on your planet.

Yea it's a good draft. the logic in it works well, just a few teathing problems with the amount of missles. Yea the logo things a good idea just one problem with it. How do we put it anywere. i'm not putting it on my flag as the flag's got nothing to do with this. perhaps we should ask max at the next online meeting thing. Those two organisations seem good enough. Oh and a messgae to the good person who says that not all nuclear bombs are made with uranium/ploutonium or hydrogen. The word Nuclear means the an atom. The force of a Nuclear Bomb is made by fission. The splitting of an atom into roughly equal parts due to an impact with another atom. It's the splitting of the atom that makes it explode with such force. There are only 2 substances that can be split, hydrodgen and uranium (plutonium atoms are used as the trigger atoms the ones that the hydrodgen/ uranium atoms thwack into at x m.p.h) any other substance that you think has the charictaristics of a Nuclear bomb are just smart weapons. Give me the substance and i'll research it (that is if you know what the substance is or are you just going off what somebody else said)? i hope that you found that little physics lesson enlightening. Do you realise that i'm 13 and i can explain this with ease. Perhaps you should get your facts right.

King James
Tempto

l

I'll join

[*shakes head* A nuclear bomb that uses Hydrogen is always fusion, there isn't a neutron in the Hydrogen atom to be split, and in Hydrogen's isotopes there's not enough sub-atomic particles in the nucleus to sustain fission. And a nuclear weapon is defined as anything that uses reactions at the sub-atomic level strong enough to cause large-scale destruction.]

[I have no intention of joining this club, but I'd like to point something out. The US, in the last fifty years, built 30,000 nuclear weapons and currently has at least 5,000 of them in its inventory. To say that no nation can have 5,000 is bogus. Furthermore, not all nuclear weapons rely on Uranium and Plutonium, and not necessarily even hydrogen.]


OOC: Fair enough.. but if you had actually went to the trouble of actually reading what I said, you would realise that my whole issue is that people suddenly develop 5,000 nuclear weapons out of nowhere... in the context of the USA, remember, this was the nation that pioneered the technology at Los Alomos and had a significant head start in the development of delivery systems and the like (thanks to Von Braun for a start..)

You also have to remember, one of the main problems facing nations wishing to develop a nuclear weapons system is that of producing a ICBM that will actually work... most secondary nuclear nations tend to use INF rather than strategic delivery methods...

As for your point of nuclear weapons not using uranium and plutonium, you must remember one fact.. and that is that nuclear weapons technology is still a closely guarded secret.. yes you can go on the internet and get bomb building instructions, but you can't exactly go out to your local Radio Shack and buy the components for a bomb...

Whittier declares its nuclear weapons arsenal.
15 K.

*sets down a national leader MK2*
"We Aim our n00ks at j00!!!!!!11!!1!"

The Allied Sates of Tempto and it's outlying Islands Declare the following to be under the power of the present ruler.

566 Mark II Tuku-Tuku Bird Reactors, operating in powerstations around the country.

3 Faro Class Nuclear Attack Submarines, with two Coldy Reactors per vessel

1 Nuclear reaserch facility, looking into the possiabillity of using a nuclear core to power a rocket into space (manned to outer planets)

5 Nuclear Bunkers situated at strategic places throughout the country (these all hold up to 10,000,000 residents for up to 2 years) Other smaller shelters are errected in town centres etc...etc...

1 Gheto Class nuclear powered Locomotive for use on Tempto's railways, (Passenger)

This is it, we are hoping to increase the number of passenger trains with a nuclear reactor as they can pull many carrages and also are incredibly fast and reliable. Are these still allowed to be sold to party members (they are very cheap for what they are, just telegram me and then i'll give you a full spec and price listings {also we will uproot and start again your whole rail system if you wish, Tempto are the railway people of the world just telegram us for any reason and we will find something out})

I need to go nuclear, petrol bombs just arnt doing the job. :sniper:

It seems that nothing more has become of this, that is bad, if people come back it would be nice, hopefully you will and this can get kickstarted again.

we wish to join.

You might want to try looking up iuthia's nuclear monitoring organisation, it sort of feel by the way side but it did coem at a time some really big bombs were tested (namely by myself and siltrees (sp)).

Sorry but i just had to put this in, there are quite a few nations in the real world with nuclear power. Over 30 infact i know that this isnt really groundbreaking but nuclear power dosn't exactly mean nuclear weapons, most of these nations have nuclear powerstations (like the one at the end of our street i live in Hartlepool U.K) the process to distill the weapons grade uranium/plutonium (for the trigger) is a complex task that takes decades to perfect. I mean tiwan is trying to get nuclear weapons but it's taking them years to get the process up and running, this is no mean feat so those are the arguments for and against, please telegram me when you have ammended this.

OOC: its actually possible to make plutonium and uranium somewhat weapons grade cheaply. The method is basically bleaching the radioactive material of course its an extremely dirty method and the radioactivity is barely weapons grade.

Can we still build nukes. If we can then I'll join.