NationStates Jolt Archive

The terms of the treaty are as follows:

1) Both countries return to pre-war holdings.

2) Neither country interferes in the other's affairs unless specifically asked to do so.

3) Both countries accept responsibility for actions they have been documented to have performed.

4) Sevaris shall consult with her allies before undertaking offensive military action except in matters of self-defense and may not intervene in the internal matters of other countries.

5) Kahta must cease its attempts to annex Sevaris and must not attempt to annex any of the countries involved with the conflict.

6) Allies from all sides must acknowledge that establishing a naval blockade is an act of war and Kahta and her allies must pay for damage to the Sevarian economy inflicted by a blockade that violates international law.

7) Kahta must either acknowledge its attempts to frame Sevaris with lies or must conclusively prove that Sevaris undertook military action in the case of the missile fired on the aircraft carrier. In addition, they must provide the reason for their aircraft flying into Sevarian airspace and dropping its ordnance.

8) Sevaris must make reparations to the family of the pilot lost in the attack and must pay reparations of $45 million U.S. to the government and the family of the downed pilot.

9) Both sides must release any prisoners they may currently hold in due course and must not mistreat any of them.

I disagree, I think Chellis' therms are much better. After all, Sevaris started with military action. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree to all points save for #4 and #8. Number 4 is unacceptable because I should have the right to launch offensive options if I need to, without consultation from my Allies. It's just defense policy. Number 7 is unacceptable because the whole incident is the Kahtan pilot's fault. He dropped ordinance in my waters. Our pilot was only following protocol. We have sent our condolences to the pilot's family- but it's his fault he was shot down.

Actually, this particular affair began when Sevaris alerted the world that Kahta was going to annex Sevaris. Sevaris had aided Caelta in a bid to prevent a Kahtan overrunning of that nation. While we acknowledge that the Government of Kahta may have been angered by this, Sevaris is perfectly within its' rights to aid the Government of any nation, and we do not consider the Kahtan moves on Sevaris to be justified. Thus as far as we are concerned Kahta is the aggressor.

If 4 is only for a period of time and Kahta doesnt have to pay anything for damage to Sevaris economy. Then it would be acceptable and fair to both sides.

Sevaris: In the interests of compromise, we suggest a reduction in the compensation paid. Your pilot did act improperly, although this is mostly Kahta's fault, since his pilot was extremely reckless and performed an action that he knew would escalate the situation.

And- for point #2- We did not intervene in Kahta's affairs. Kahta intervened in Caelta's and we were bound to help Caelta resist the Kahtan oppression.

We were planning to pay the pilot's family some compensation- but $45 million was too much in our humble opinion. We suggest a figure of around $12 Million

except IIRC Caelta isn't actually an NS nation it's just soemwhere kahta invented for himself to invade, much like the various "invasions" of Rl palces everyone goes in for.

I agree to all points save for #4 and #8. Number 4 is unacceptable because I should have the right to launch offensive options if I need to, without consultation from my Allies. It's just defense policy. Number 7 is unacceptable because the whole incident is the Kahtan pilot's fault. He dropped ordinance in my waters. Our pilot was only following protocol. We have sent our condolences to the pilot's family- but it's his fault he was shot down.

[OOC: Number four does not completely preclude you from launching offensive operations. It just limits that for the time being to defense of your country. Consulting with your allies means talking to the rest of the Victoria Alliance and if the alliance agrees.

Number seven does not address the issue of fault whatsoever. That's why we limited the reparations to an amount that would reasonably accomodate the cost of the downed aircraft and its ordnance, plus payments to the family. We believe the Kahtan government needs to explain its reasons for sending the jet into your airspace and that is incorporated in the other terms of the treaty.

Plus, the treaty says nothing of disarmament of EITHER side. Trust me, there's more that I'd LIKE to put in but am not.]

OOC: Shows up on the nation list.

May I suggest that if a third party or groups of third parties does not consider Kahta's justficiation acceptable, reparations to Sevaris be imposed upon Kahta for their irresponsibility?

We can suggest an amount of $25 million. The amount we are suggesting is not set in stone.

I must insist on the payment of damages to the Sevarian economy because establishing a naval blockade is an act of war and is particularly incendiary when no formal declaration of war has taken place.

Maybe a puppet? i don't suppose it amtters unless theya re a sperate nation that would liek to comment?

OOC: I still maintain that Sevaris acted rashly in shooting down the plane. With is destruction and the death of the pilot, we have no evidence that the pilots navigation and/or communication systems were working properly. In the fog, he could easily have been disorientated, straying into Sevarisian waters. Ditching the ordinance may have been a gesture of good will, to show that he would not fly over your waters carrying weapons, or it may have been to increase his fuel economy, allowing him to get back to the carrier.

And surely any, even poorly trained, pilot can tell the difference between a missile being jettisoned and one being launched. A good indicator would be if the motor ignited or not. But then maybe intelligence isn't a strong point of Sevarisian pilots?

May I suggest that if a third party or groups of third parties does not consider Kahta's justficiation acceptable, reparations to Sevaris be imposed upon Kahta for their irresponsibility?

That's why I suggested the payment of reparations for economic damage. If the Kahtan justification is not deemed acceptable by a third party or a group of third parties, Kahta must return half of whatever reparations Sevaris pays for the loss to the aircraft and must admit its responsibility for the aircraft flying into Sevarian airspace.

God only knows what the combination of blockade and friendly ships provisioning has done to Sevaris' economy.

Added: OK, sounds good. Sorry, must have not taken that bit in.

Sevaris intervened in Kahtan bussiness and Kahta blockaded Sevaris. Both took damage that way, neither side should pay anything, just learn from the damages.

OOC: I still maintain that Sevaris acted rashly in shooting down the plane. With is destruction and the death of the pilot, we have no evidence that the pilots navigation and/or communication systems were working properly. In the fog, he could easily have been disorientated, straying into Sevarisian waters. Ditching the ordinance may have been a gesture of good will, to show that he would not fly over your waters carrying weapons, or it may have been to increase his fuel economy, allowing him to get back to the carrier.

And surely any, even poorly trained, pilot can tell the difference between a missile being jettisoned and one being launched. A good indicator would be if the motor ignited or not. But then maybe intelligence isn't a strong point of Sevarisian pilots?

Who is to say they were aware of the eaxct weapons being carried? for all the pilot might have known they could have been torpedeos or soemthing with a delayed ignition system...

Sevaris intervened in Kahtan bussiness and Kahta blockaded Sevaris. Both took damage that way, neither side should pay anything, just learn from the damages.

[OOC: The point is that both sides are at fault at least to some extent and I'm stipulating that both sides pay. The amounts may largely cancel each other out. Hopefully, lessons will be learned by both.]

I did not interfere in Kahtan business. He interfered in the lives of innocent people, killed them, and then I got involved on behalf of the Caeltan people.

God only knows what the combination of blockade and friendly ships provisioning has done to Sevaris' economy.

Added: OK, sounds good. Sorry, must have not taken that bit in.

The second part (about returning reparation payments) is an addendum that addresses what the original treaty does not.

Did you ever actully send anything or were you about to when he decalred annexation in response to your protests in the slavery thread?

Who is to say they were aware of the eaxct weapons being carried? for all the pilot might have known they could have been torpedeos or soemthing with a delayed ignition system...

OOC: IIRC, F/A-18s cannot carry torpedos. They may well have been delayed ignition i suppose. But then surely launching a missile unpowered at 150ft for it to fall and ignite would only lead to said missile slamming into the ocean?

OOC: The pilot should not have been entering Sevaris' waters anyway. He should have been staying well away from them. He should only consider himself lucky that more aircraft didn't shoot at the same time. Come one, if you're watching a plane heading towards your ships loaded with AShMs and see one drop from underneath it, you're not going to think "oh, well evidently that's OK, I don't see a booster igniting" in the split-second you have to react, are you?

OOC: The pilot should not have been entering Sevaris' waters anyway. He should have been staying well away from them. He should only consider himself lucky that more aircraft didn't shoot at the same time. Come one, if you're watching a plane heading towards your ships loaded with AShMs and see one drop from underneath it, you're not going to think "oh, well evidently that's OK, I don't see a booster igniting" in the split-second you have to react, are you?

So instead you think "I'll start a huge war that could wipe out my country"? And if he was in fog with bad navigation systems, he may not have known whose waters he was in...

OOC: I still maintain that Sevaris acted rashly in shooting down the plane. With is destruction and the death of the pilot, we have no evidence that the pilots navigation and/or communication systems were working properly. In the fog, he could easily have been disorientated, straying into Sevarisian waters. Ditching the ordinance may have been a gesture of good will, to show that he would not fly over your waters carrying weapons, or it may have been to increase his fuel economy, allowing him to get back to the carrier.

And surely any, even poorly trained, pilot can tell the difference between a missile being jettisoned and one being launched. A good indicator would be if the motor ignited or not. But then maybe intelligence isn't a strong point of Sevarisian pilots?

Regardless of why the guy was in Sevarian territory, he was in Sevarian territory and Sevaris has every right to attack him.

OOC: He would likely not have though anything beyond "missiles - aircraft has launched - war begun - kill." And IF he had a screwy INS or whatever, then why in God's name did the idiot risk getting near Sevaris' waters?

Wait- I have just a tiny condition.

Before I will sign the treaty- the blockade of Sevaris must be lifted. That is the only way I can be sure that the other parties will agree.

If it is lifted, our ships will remain on-station for two days before departing, our submarines for five. This we feel will preclude any immediate Imperial moves on the part of Kahta or her allies.

OOC: He would likely not have though anything beyond "missiles - aircraft has launched - war begun - kill." And IF he had a screwy INS or whatever, then why in God's name did the idiot risk getting near Sevaris' waters?

Surprisingly enough, the words Sevarisian Waters are nto written on teh ocean in huge letters so that he could see them. And unless the pilot has near psychic levels of spacial awareness, he may not have known where he was. Even at 500 knots, slower than the Hornet is capable of, it doesn't take long to move two miles over a border does it?

No, they are not, and no, it does not take long, which is all the more reason why he should have stayed well away from the borderline or the vicinity of it.

It's a well accepted fact that most countries claim waters to 3 miles out from their coast. Any pilot who is not completely stupid could judge that from his radar.

"Oh dont worry gov'ner, it was foggy and I was walking with the knife pointed outwards and I just walked into him."

Sorry but it doesnt cut it. I dont give a damn how the guy accidently strolled into sevarian waters very innocently, it doesnt matter. Intentions are irrelevant, action is.

DPUO - You try flying at 500 knots and without looking at any form of map, in the middle of a fog bank, you tell me exactly where you are. Go on. Try it.

Sevaris - True, but any pilot with some semblance of training and intelligence can tell the difference between a launch and a jettison.

The blockade must be lifted. That should go without saying.

Now I'd like to see Kahta discuss/agree to this treaty.

McLeod03, the plane was in Sevarian territory so Sevaris could shoot down his plane. It's as simple as that.

"Oh dont worry gov'ner, it was foggy and I was walking with the knife pointed outwards and I just walked into him."

Sorry but it doesnt cut it. I dont give a damn how the guy accidently strolled into sevarian waters very innocently, it doesnt matter. Intentions are irrelevant, action is.

So its ok to kill people who get lost? And you say Kahta is bad...

DPUO - You try flying at 500 knots and without looking at any form of map, in the middle of a fog bank, you tell me exactly where you are. Go on. Try it.

Sevaris - True, but any pilot with some semblance of training and intelligence can tell the difference between a launch and a jettison.

McLeod03: Two words: GPS Tracker.

We had a feeling he might have been using it as a crude bomb tactic. Perhaps he thought he could fool us. Perhaps not. Nevertheless, he was in my territory despite repeated warnings to leave.

So its ok to kill people who get lost? And you say Kahta is bad...

I dont think you quite understood my post.

McLeod03: Two words: GPS Tracker.

FFS. I am talknig about total instrumentation failure. Yes its uncommon, but are you telling me that no equipment ever fails?

So its ok to kill people who get lost? And you say Kahta is bad...

It's one thing if it's a commercial plane that gets lost in Kahtan airspace. Since there were escalating tensions and it was an ARMED aircraft flying into Sevarian airspace without permission, that can be construed as an act of war and they had every right to shoot down the fighter.

And the question remains why the Kahtan pilot ignored the warnings to turn back.

^^ Can you just give it up you're stalling the whole peace process over one fighter that had illegally crossed into Sevarian territory anyway.

EDIT: That was pointed at McLeod03

Actually, six:

1) GPS system;
2) INS system;
3) Common sense! You don't send out your pilot into the very close vicinity of the bodrer line if you know that everybody is waiting with their trigger fingers itching and that if the plane crosses into Sevaris' waters, accidentally or otherwise, there will be firing. If he were 50 miles away from the borderline and this plane happened to stray across alone and lost then yes I could accept your explanation, but not in the circumstances as they arose. Kahta's actions were ridiculously irresponsible and he knew well likely to provoke a war.

Edit: Sorry. My dogmaticness too. Ignore all that above.

OOC: IIRC, F/A-18s cannot carry torpedos. They may well have been delayed ignition i suppose. But then surely launching a missile unpowered at 150ft for it to fall and ignite would only lead to said missile slamming into the ocean?


Unless the pilots got very very close to each other then they wouldn't have known the eaxct weapon load carried and maybe they interpreted it as the use of an unknown weapon, unless he ahd very good intel he won't have known exactly what weapons kahta has cleared for his F/A-18s. A weapons seperation of any kind in hostile airspace was a risky move to begin with. Although a launch wanring would not have been received the speration would have shown up and that would spook even pilots belonging to a CAP nation let along a younger nation.

FFS. I am talknig about total instrumentation failure. Yes its uncommon, but are you telling me that no equipment ever fails?

I'm not telling you that. What I am telling you is that there are ways to know where you're going in a fog. Common sense should have told the pilot to avoid Sevarian airspace if their fighters are warning him to turn around. He was given several warnings and he ignored them for whatever reason.

It is too uncommon for total equipment failure to be considered a legitimate possibility. Besides, the weapons equipment sure worked well enough to drop the ordnance.

Crookfur - True. But with everything on a knife edge, wouldn't a CAP nation have attempted visual communication instead? Even a burst of tracers in front of the nose as a warning shot would have alerted the Kahtan that something was about to really go wrong. Plus, if a weapon is jettisoned, isn't it more likely to tumble through the air, since it has no power to guide it in the right direction? Surely any pilot can tell the difference then?

This is my last post on the subject. I'm outnumbered somewhat, and can't be bothered to constantly argue OOCly with four other nations. Kahta reacted strongly, yes, but it was Sevaris's fault. He got involved where involvement would put him at risk. He shot down an aircraft, regardless of the situation, he caused the only casualty in the stand off, and he makes threats to those nations blockading him. If Sevaris hadn't stuck his arrogant nose in, he wouldn't have been put under a blockade. End of discussion.

[/rant]

I'm sorry, but you mean to say you're suprised that Sevaris tries to defend himself? If it was me I'd have gone out and sunk that blockade, but that's just me...

I am getting to that point.

OOC: all true but a nice bit of pilot misjudgement makes things more interesting, of course with a CAP pilot we would have used warning bursts, jamming, flares and the whole shebang

I'm sorry, but you mean to say you're suprised that Sevaris tries to defend himself? If it was me I'd have gone out and sunk that blockade, but that's just me...

No. I'm surprised that he is readily willing to shoot down the fighter of a nation twenty times his size without trying other routes first. I'm surprised that he wanted war with someone who could wipe him, and you, out with ease. Personally, i wouldn't have engaged the blockade, but then i wouldn't have made threats to someone with a fourty-billion population. (I know Kahta isnt 40 bill, but a nation twenty time my size would have a 40 bill pop)

I am not afraid to speak my mind. I will not be ordered around like some clerk.

I'm not telling you that. What I am telling you is that there are ways to know where you're going in a fog. Common sense should have told the pilot to avoid Sevarian airspace if their fighters are warning him to turn around. He was given several warnings and he ignored them for whatever reason.

It is too uncommon for total equipment failure to be considered a legitimate possibility. Besides, the weapons equipment sure worked well enough to drop the ordnance.

Perhaps his communication and navagation systems failed. It wouldn't take a total systems failure to produce the situation we saw. Just a glitch in the communications systems, and blammo. And since the pilot was in dense fog...

It is perfectly logical that the pilot could have strayed into Sevaris. And if his communication systems were disabled, he couldn't have exactly heard the Sevaris warnings.

I am not afraid to speak my mind. I will not be ordered around like some clerk.

Then you've got to be prepared for the consequences of your actions. You've gotta reap what you sow.

No. I'm surprised that he is readily willing to shoot down the fighter of a nation twenty times his size without trying other routes first. I'm surprised that he wanted war with someone who could wipe him, and you, out with ease. Personally, i wouldn't have engaged the blockade, but then i wouldn't have made threats to someone with a fourty-billion population. (I know Kahta isnt 40 bill, but a nation twenty time my size would have a 40 bill pop)

Personally, I think a shot across the bow (which the flares amount to IMO) should be warning enough after verbal warnings. Unless I had my fighters fly a menacing path toward his so they can see I mean business, I can't think of anything beyond the flares or a shot across the bow of the fighter when repeated warnings failed and the fighter ignored them.

This treaty attempts to address the errors committed by both countries. No side will likely walk away from this treaty completely happy, but a fair treaty is a compromise where both sides give concessions.

No. I'm surprised that he is readily willing to shoot down the fighter of a nation twenty times his size without trying other routes first. I'm surprised that he wanted war with someone who could wipe him, and you, out with ease. Personally, i wouldn't have engaged the blockade, but then i wouldn't have made threats to someone with a fourty-billion population. (I know Kahta isnt 40 bill, but a nation twenty time my size would have a 40 bill pop)
I dont think he did want war, it was Kahta who declared war and it was kahta who was the agressor. I would perfectly capable of sinking that fleet had it attacked me. His carriers only had about 5 escorts.

If any peace is going to succeed, the blockade must be lifted first. Otherwise, I will take steps to ensure its removal.

We advise a temporary peace treaty be reached without any terms, A permanent treaty could be reached through further negotiations. Would that be possible?

I am not afraid to speak my mind. I will not be ordered around like some clerk.

Consultation with allies is hardly ordering you around "like some clerk." It's a measure that provides a reasonable check-and-balance to prevent an escalation like the one that just took place.

Besides that, there are economic and diplomatic pressures you can employ that will get your point across, particularly if you have a strong trading relationship with a country. Recalling an ambassador, employing economic sanctions, severing diplomatic ties, engaging in a full-scale embargo, etc.

There's not much to prevent you from sending communications to a country condemning their actions.

[OOC: And for the countries that imposed the blockade, there's a way to "sort of" impose a blockade without really imposing one. I often send a fleet to international waters surrounding a country as an "observation force" that DOES NOT INTERFERE in shipping to a country. If a declaration of war happens, it doesn't take much for a full-scale blockade to be imposed.]

I was not speaking of my allies- I was talking about the Imperialists. McLeod03 and others maintain I had no right to criticize Kahta.

If any peace is going to succeed, the blockade must be lifted first. Otherwise, I will take steps to ensure its removal.

Sevaris, as an extended ally, I advise you not to issue threats. These threats are seriously undermining the peace process.

We also call for the blockade to be lifted immediately.

I am not extending threats. I am merely pointing out that no peace is possible whatsoever if the blockade remains.

We advise a temporary peace treaty be reached without any terms, A permanent treaty could be reached through further negotiations. Would that be possible?

Well?

Well?

I think that's a cease fire you're talking about. I think Communist Mississippi already called for one.

Probably. But I will not go to any sort of negotiations UNLESS, and I mean UNLESS, the blockade is lifted.

I am not extending threats. I am merely pointing out that no peace is possible whatsoever if the blockade remains.

Otherwise, I will take steps to ensure its removal.

Sounds like a threat to me.

I agree that no peace is possible as long as the blockade exists. I also call for it to be lifted. But it sounds like you're threatening them with "remove the blockade or else."

I am not THREATNING them. I am merely explaining to them that we can never have peace unless the blockade is lifted. If they want any chance at peace, they will lift the blockade.

I am not THREATNING them. I am merely explaining to them that we can never have peace unless the blockade is lifted. If they want any chance at peace, they will lift the blockade.

I'm telling you what I see. Remember that I was about to risk entering the war myself and that's how I would interpret your statement.

Well...If they interpret it as war- and act accordingly- then they'll have a war on their hands.

Well...If they interpret it as war- and act accordingly- then they'll have a war on their hands.

And so will a LOT of countries. And right now is not the time to be lobbying what could be perceived as threats.

OOC: Sevaris, check TG.

I think that's a cease fire you're talking about. I think Communist Mississippi already called for one.

I'm calling for a real peace treaty, all nations send their troops home imediatly and call their diplomats instead.

I'm calling for a real peace treaty, all nations send their troops home imediatly and call their diplomats instead.

That I would support.

We are more than willing to hold the actual peace talks in our capital, Woodstock.

OOC: I think the 45 mil is just for the shot down F/A-18.

OOC: I think the 45 mil is just for the shot down F/A-18.

[OOC: I included some depreciation for possible use/wear and tear in my $45 million figure, plus something for the family of the pilot.]

*bump*

OOC: Think everbody's gone for the moment. Pity really. Have to wait until Kahta and GF get on tonight.

IC: We are willing to withdraw our ships from the area within 1-2 days, except attack and guided missile submarines, should this treaty go ahead. We heartily approve Sarzonia's attempt to avert a catastrophic war, and provide a fair and balanced judgement.

Chellis will not be signing this, unless it is not included under number 6, number 7 is changed to prove that the weapon could have been of sevaris manufacture as opposed to being fired from it, and there is a new clause that says that sevaris may not arm rebels of any of the nations involved in the war.

Until a peace is signed, we will not withdraw our blockade.

Chellis's proposals are again moronic. We have the right to arm who we choose. We were arming the Caeltans only because they were trying to defend their freedom. I will sign no peace treaty unless the blockade is lifted.

Chellis will not be signing this, unless it is not included under number 6, number 7 is changed to prove that the weapon could have been of sevaris manufacture as opposed to being fired from it, and there is a new clause that says that sevaris may not arm rebels of any of the nations involved in the war.

Until a peace is signed, we will not withdraw our blockade.

We believe the terms that we are advancing are more than reasonable, in stark contrast to your own.

The terms of number six are not up for negotiation, nor are any changes to number seven.

We are highly disappointed that you seem to choose war and destruction instead of peaceful settlement of confict.

Chellis will not be signing this, unless it is not included under number 6, number 7 is changed to prove that the weapon could have been of sevaris manufacture as opposed to being fired from it, and there is a new clause that says that sevaris may not arm rebels of any of the nations involved in the war.

Until a peace is signed, we will not withdraw our blockade.

For God's sake swallow your pride and compromise.

The missile could have been of Sevarian manufacture, but we dont know, which is why term 7 is how it is. Also you have caused damage to Sevaris's economy, and I class a blockade as an act of war. Therefore you should pay for it.

For God's sake swallow your pride and compromise.

The missile could have been of Sevarian manufacture, but we dont know, which is why term 7 is how it is. Also you have caused damage to Sevaris's economy, and I class a blockade as an act of war. Therefore you should pay for it.

[OOC: Anyone with any sense of international law KNOWS that a blockade is an act of war. I'm not saying you don't know it OOC, but I assume you are RPing that you ignore that IC if I'm not mistaken.

Also, that's intended to respond to Chellis and back up Praetonia's point.]