NationStates Jolt Archive

Samtonia is proud to announce the progress of a development team in Samtonia laboring to create an effective anti-capital ship torpedo/missile. Samtonia's goals for this project include:
1. Creating an effective anti-large vessel wepaon.
2. Creating said weapon to be cost effective.
3. Creating a weapon that could easily be configured to be used by either ordnance vessels, land launched defenses, or submersible vessels.

Progress thusfar on the Mk3 ACSHMT includes:
-Full creation of the warhead to be used
-Beta-version homing software
-Most effective desgn for penetration of hulls and decks

Samtonia would like to offer the chance to work on the finishing design to nations we deem powerful enough in the research areas of:
-Naval Engineering
-Military Engineering
-Fueled-Rocket Engineering and design

We as a nation feel that now is the era of the super-dreadnought: Slow, ponderous, massive, and with a huge amount of weapons. We wish to end this domination of the seas and end the foolishness of these hulking beamoths. We feel a ship-launched torpedo or missile is the most effective deterrent, provided it has the homing capabilities and power required to do so.

Any nation wishing to join in this valuable and important research may feel free to submit their applications here. Upon confirmation of their involvement of the project, current specs and designs of the weapon will be sent to them in as timely a manner as possible.

Samtonia Engineering- The Ideas of Tomorrow Today!

Attention! Samtonia Engineering is now offering a sizeable sum to anyone who can help develop reliable software to home in on enemy vessels. Prizes are offered in this contract!

Our satellite states, Raving Duck´s Information Technology Complex is interested of this contract. We can send you samples of our programs and homing devices used.

Army-General Golytzin, General Headquartes, Ordnance Department

If you could please send us the technical details of your homing devices, Samtonia Engineering would be most thankful, due to the fact we need specifics before deciding on a partner (or partners, as the case may be) in this endeavor.

OOC- If you have the technical specs, I'd need to see them. See, I figure any time I try to use one of these, someone will cry out, "Oh no/nyet/non/nein! That's godmoding!", so I want these things to have all the information so I actually [i]can[/] say, with pride, "These DO work and they WILL track in on your massive lump of metal."

If you could please send us the technical details of your homing devices, Samtonia Engineering would be most thankful, due to the fact we need specifics before deciding on a partner (or partners, as the case may be) in this endeavor.

OOC- If you have the technical specs, I'd need to see them. See, I figure any time I try to use one of these, someone will cry out, "Oh no/nyet/non/nein! That's godmoding!", so I want these things to have all the information so I actually [i]can[/] say, with pride, "These DO work and they WILL track in on your massive lump of metal."

Well, any torpedo can track any target, hell, with a 'lump of metal' that big it isnt going to be that hard to miss even without guidance. The problem, my friend, is actually trying to do significant amounts of damage to vessels that simply outsize most modern day weapons.

Samtonian Engineers acknowledge the inherent problems of current weaponry against such large vessels. We have attempted to design a torpedo and/or missile design that will hopefully work to combat weaknesses of ship design:
1. Less armor below the waterline
2. Inability to easily track and destroy smaller missiles

We feel that a design based off of something that has been around for thousands of years is what is needed. A screw. A simple screw. Or at least not in this case. We're trying to figure out a way to get drilling devices to be extended at a certain point in the torpedo/missile's travel and literally screw part-way through the hull of the ship. We have estimated that if this can be achieved, a small nuclear device as the warhead would enable a super dreanought, the size of which exists today, to be destroyed with one successful strike. However, we need assistance on the design.

This is why we are asking for help designing this weapon. Any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated. In fact, we would like to extend a special invitation to you Freethinkers, as your expertise and know-how in nearly anything naval exemplifies the lost arts of shipbuilding and weapon design.

Well, Im interested in the project, and being the designer of the most famous super-dreadnought around I dont mind giving the project an overview and advice, but time isnt something I have huge amounts of so I can only give limited input.

The screw idea is interesting, but you do have to be very careful with regards to nukes. On a purely tactical sense, nuclear weapons are so powerful that you merely need to get one in the vicinity of a superdreadnought to cripple or sink it.

But be advised. You are using a nuclear warhead, and retaliation is extremely harsh. The mimimum response Ive seen is a total annihilation of the attacker's navy with a retalitory nuclear attack. My own retaliation is to attack every viable military target on a similar level and most people with simply go the full way. The point is that even facing the power of a super-dreadnought is comparable to recieving a nuclear strike.

Sinking a Super-dreadnought is tough, but crippling one so its unusuable is a lot easier. The screw idea works reasonably well even with a normal explosive head, but you will need to invest in extremely strong drill bits as well as looking at ways for the torpedo to latch onto the hull without being sucked away by the tremedous current around these classes of vessels.

Good luck all the same.

OOC: One tactic would be to use some form of supercavitating torpedo, but with a large(ish) warhead. That way, you've got a torpedo capable of sinking a destroyer moving at about 300 knots, which would easily increase the destructive power. Plus, the super-dreadnought would have very little chance of intercepting it or moving out of the way. But it would take more than one to sink most ships, unless you made it something like the larger diameter Russian torp, about 65cm IIRC. With that, you could get a much bigger warhead in it.

OOC: One tactic would be to use some form of supercavitating torpedo, but with a large(ish) warhead. That way, you've got a torpedo capable of sinking a destroyer moving at about 300 knots, which would easily increase the destructive power. Plus, the super-dreadnought would have very little chance of intercepting it or moving out of the way. But it would take more than one to sink most ships, unless you made it something like the larger diameter Russian torp, about 65cm IIRC. With that, you could get a much bigger warhead in it.

supercav torpedos don't work that well against heavily armoured targets.

Belem would be interested in working on this project and can assist in developing a screw for the torpedo.

Samtonia Engineering would like to thank all who have replied.

We would like to respectively ask Doujin how he would know this about super cavitating. We would like some evidence supporting his claims, as from what we know, supercavitating torpedos experience no reduction in efficiency against vessels of varying size.

We would like to thank McLeod03 for his help. WE never would have thought about supercavitation for a while on our own.

Belem, unless we go with McLeod03's sugggestion, we may allow you to assist. If you could send us technical data on past work, we would be most appreciative.

The Freethinkers, as we stated before, we absolutely bow to your superior ship design skills. We would like to thank you for warning us of a few...dangers...of using nuclear devices.

To get a deeper penetration on the Torpedo you could use the conventional bomb method which would work you have a heavy metal or concrete about an inch or two thick and it will smash into the target first causing structural damage but the main goal is to get the warhead in to the point where its past the hull or in alignment with the hull on a traditional non armored hull(meaning a hull that mainly uses kevlar on the insides to stop weapons) both would cause massive damage. On an armored hull the results would be less spectacular.

Another system would be having two charges a smaller charge leading that explodes initially and damages the hull following a second or two later by the primary heavy charge which will destroy the rest of the hull.

Past Fleet work(most of my tech producing threads were purged though before the server was transferred over. I developed a CIWS gun called steel wall designed to shoot down high speed missiles. I also developed a mach 3-5 missile that has a 300 mile sea skim range.)

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=335396

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=330036

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=328622

We are willing to take part in this.


What if you have a Supercav torpedo, where the nose/head explodes outwards sending maybe 10 independant warheads at a high velocity in front of the main torpedo, maybe a second before impact. This might weaken the hull considerably, allowing the perhaps 500kg warhead (big torpedo...) to rip the weakened hull open, and penetrate the second inner hull. Bulkheads will always be a problem, and the trick here will be to cause wide spread damage. EMP is always an option if its allowed.

Samtonia Engineering would like to welcome Belem into the development team.

Artista, if you could give us some examples of technical work, it would be appreciated.

Now,we feel that a supercav torpedo seems to be the best idea, as it gives us high speed and range. The multiple explosions work if the hull of the ship is that- one hull. Most dreadnoughts have at least a secondary, if not a tertiary. We still feel that a screw design, to drill partway through the hull before detonating, would be most effective. To keep it on, we felt that if the front of the supercav torpedo could fold out somehow into multiple "arms" if you will and either:
A. Magnetically attach themselves to the hull
B. Weld themselves to the hull

This should provide a stable drilling platform in the 30 secs. or less it would take to drill through partway and detonate. We feel that, barring a nuclear device, octol would be our best bet for the explosive agent. Powerful, compact, and easily made into a shaped charge, octol is now the explosive of choice for the USM. If another, better explosive agent could be found, then by all means would we use that.

But how to get it to drill through? We say that we cause the torpedo to spin as it travels through the water. Then, as it is about to hit, the front will fall off, revealing some type of screw, as yet to be determined. The force of it spinning, combined with its "arms" locking into place should cause it to spin, drilling through the hull.

[*sigh* You guys are on the right track with a supercav torpedo and Samtonia's idea is interesting but won't work unless some sort of rotation can be introduced to the torp and might not work even then. You guys are forgetting the primary weakness of most huge ships but I won't do any reminding because I use a lot of ships in the 100,000+ ton displacement range that would suffer because of this.]

Most of the super ships I've seen just have really thick armor, possibly double hulled.

The new generation is called ablative armor. It sheds itself once it is hit..

Saves your ass once, and by then you know where the enemy is.

[Ah, that's another thing, the good "superships" are trimarans, so that's another problem to deal with.]

whittier will donate 3 billion dollars to this cause.

(You'll need some extremely strong magnets, as it needs to be strong enough to counter the torque of the drill.)

It would have to be really fast since my ships (and most likely other nations ships) are armed with supercavitating under-water CIWS guns for shooting mines and incoming torpedos.

[Supercav torpedos are by definition fast, very fast. And whether or not you have these guns is inmaterial, because nobody was threatening you and the mere existence of these guns does not make for excellent reaction times nor 100% intercept rates. Frankly, I'm half tempted to show them my supercav torps, just to frustrate your sense of superiority.]

It needs to get at the propellers or propulsion system. Without it, it cannot move and is very vulnerable.

That's my two cents.

gun platform is not a good idea, not unless you want to go around the "supership" and not engage it.]

Submarines are fine with it. If you're sitting under the gun platform, you can safely fire a remote control torpedo, turn it around, and hit the platform

[Even assuming you can get a torpedo to do more to a dreadnaught or superdreadnaught than scratch its paintjob, one won't be enough and doing what you describe will just get the sub killed, assuming you can get that close in the first place.]

Rubberduckistan/Raving Duck Ordnance Development Department (now on RRDODD) is developing low-skimming anti-ship missiles and experimenting with Fuel-Air Explosive- and EMP-warheads. Also nuclear warheads of 0,1 KT range are considered. Plus, our Coastal Artillery has returned 14" fortressguns back to vogue.

Well, Doujin is right, supercav torpedoes do suffer against heavily armed targets. The reason comes from the basic structure of the torpedo itself. A supercavitating torpedo requires, in its nose, the cavitating shield, the gas exhausts, any guidance system, and, in this particular torpedo, a whole drilling mechanism, before the warhead can be placed in. This means the warhead placement is similar to that of a SSM, placed most of the way along the body of the weapon, far away from the front.*

Now, against the traditional thin-skins of warships, this isnt a problem , as the mass and speed of the torpedo allows it to transverse the armoured layer and explode inside, making a nice big hole etc. The problem stems from what happens if the torpedo can't penetrate the hull, and the result is the detonation happens several meters from the hull. Then most of the explosive force is depleted into shifting tons of water. Although there is some stress damage to the ship, super-dreadnoughts like the Doujin are designed for significantly greater forces acting on their armour belts.

*The skhval has a warhead placed near the nose, but it should be remembered the Shkval is an unguided, first generation Supercav torpedo with only a cavitating shield before the warhead. Modern weapons are much more sophisticated than that and so need much more equipment placed in front of the warhead.

Also, please remember that the sub that uses the Supercavitating torpedo will be completely destroyed when the sonar echo reveals it to every enemy ship within a hundred mile radius. You also add into the equation that supercavitation torpedoes have a much shorter range than traditional torpedoes (7km (Shkval) to 20 km (modern acceptable standard) to 50 km(Mk48 ADCAP) ), meaning the sub firing the torpedo will have to risk transversing the superdreadnought's destroyer screens.

And warhead choice, fuel-air-bombs are of dubious effect against armoured ships, EMP simply doesnt work against modern hardened vehicles, and firing a nuke will elicate the responses I mentioned before.

Just be careful with those supercavs....

I would offer my plasma lance technology for a suitable price. Essentially its a one-time use railgun that shoots a beam of superheated plasma, which will basically cut through anything(like thick hulls), its one-time use because it vaporizes itself during firing. In practice it acts like a shaped charge penetrator, but with a much longer and more focused impact. Since it really only replaces the warhead, it would almost be possible to modify an existing torpedo to carry it.

Well, Doujin is right, supercav torpedoes do suffer against heavily armed targets. The reason comes from the basic structure of the torpedo itself. A supercavitating torpedo requires, in its nose, the cavitating shield, the gas exhausts, any guidance system, and, in this particular torpedo, a whole drilling mechanism, before the warhead can be placed in. This means the warhead placement is similar to that of a SSM, placed most of the way along the body of the weapon, far away from the front.*

Now, against the traditional thin-skins of warships, this isnt a problem , as the mass and speed of the torpedo allows it to transverse the armoured layer and explode inside, making a nice big hole etc. The problem stems from what happens if the torpedo can't penetrate the hull, and the result is the detonation happens several meters from the hull. Then most of the explosive force is depleted into shifting tons of water. Although there is some stress damage to the ship, super-dreadnoughts like the Doujin are designed for significantly greater forces acting on their armour belts.

*The skhval has a warhead placed near the nose, but it should be remembered the Shkval is an unguided, first generation Supercav torpedo with only a cavitating shield before the warhead. Modern weapons are much more sophisticated than that and so need much more equipment placed in front of the warhead.

Also, please remember that the sub that uses the Supercavitating torpedo will be completely destroyed when the sonar echo reveals it to every enemy ship within a hundred mile radius. You also add into the equation that supercavitation torpedoes have a much shorter range than traditional torpedoes (7km (Shkval) to 20 km (modern acceptable standard) to 50 km(Mk48 ADCAP) ), meaning the sub firing the torpedo will have to risk transversing the superdreadnought's destroyer screens.

And warhead choice, fuel-air-bombs are of dubious effect against armoured ships, EMP simply doesnt work against modern hardened vehicles, and firing a nuke will elicate the responses I mentioned before.

Just be careful with those supercavs....

Then we must design tactics against those monsters, and make do what we have available. If they cannot be defeated in single battle, maybe something like naval version of guerrila warfare.....

Then we must design tactics against those monsters, and make do what we have available. If they cannot be defeated in single battle, maybe something like naval version of guerrila warfare.....

Now you are thinking along the right lines. Attrittion mining, round the clock air-raids, sinking supply ships, even moving these behemoths into shallow water and grounding them are reasonable tactics.

www.warships1.com (read the tech pages, they will give you some help)

How about some form of remotely activated CAPTOR minefield, mixed with magnetic mines? Could be laid hours before the fleet gets over the spot, and at high speed, the Doujin would be hit before it could turn out of the minefield. All you need then is some form of listening post on the sea bed to activate it. Purely a defensive measure, but if you wait until a nice narrow channel that the Doujin has to pass through, it should be farily effective.

[Freethinker, why are supercavs so noisy? I mean, I thought one of the main advantages of the supercav was that you couldn't hear it coming becase it was surrounded by an air pocket.]

[Freethinker, why are supercavs so noisy? I mean, I thought one of the main advantages of the supercav was that you couldn't hear it coming becase it was surrounded by an air pocket.]

I would imagine from the rather large rocket motor powering the Shkval, which you will still hear despite the air pocket. Sound would be reduced, but not 100%.

[Supercav torpedos are by definition fast, very fast. And whether or not you have these guns is inmaterial, because nobody was threatening you and the mere existence of these guns does not make for excellent reaction times nor 100% intercept rates. Frankly, I'm half tempted to show them my supercav torps, just to frustrate your sense of superiority.]

I was just trying to help out by telling him that some people might have those guns, and that any other type of torpedo other than a supercav would be endangered by them.

My sense of superiority? Im just trying to be helpful man.. you dont have to jump to conclusions so fast, im not trying to threaten anyone in this thread.

I would imagine from the rather large rocket motor powering the Shkval, which you will still hear despite the air pocket. Sound would be reduced, but not 100%.

[Ah yes, I can see where that monstrosity would make a lot noise, but if you use something like a water ramjet I don't think the noise is as bad. Of course, I could be entirely wrong and I'll bow to whatever Freethinkers says, but I doubt the Russians would have built a weapon that would mean sacrificing an expensive sub and its crew just to use it once.]

OOC: True, but i haven't looked into water ramjet powered versions yet. Probably out of the modern tech area, but useful in my post-modern forces.

OOC: True, but i haven't looked into water ramjet powered versions yet. Probably out of the modern tech area, but useful in my post-modern forces.

[Water ramjets are what the US is going to use in its supercav torpedos, I think. In fact, my torp is base heavily on what the US' supercav should be able to do.]

The engine isn't what makes the noise in a supercavitating torpedo. The big problem is the air cavity itself which creates an enormous mass of bubbles. It's the cavities are by definition rather unstable, with all kinds of fluid eddies and escaping gas. They are LOUD.

I don't see how a small 500 ton tactical nuke woudl elicit the kind of responce you seem to expect. It's not in either country's interests to escalate to a full out nuclear engagement; any nation that has the capabilities to build and use a nuclear torpedo will almost certainly have a large conventional reserve. If the other side begins a thermonuclear exchange, both sides will be destroyed. MAD.

As for supercavitating CIWS, the US's, as far as I know, only have a range of a couple of dozen meters, far to close for an effective engagement, not to mention turrets mounted underwater would drastically increase water resistance. So the only gun based supercav point defence can be mounted on the the deck. This gives them a maximum effective deapth of, say 50m, but they wouldn't be able to depress far enough to actually hit targets close to the ship. So a 'bottom attack' torpedo would be able to circomvent the point defence system.

Frankly, I would use a volley of 1kt or 1/2kt nuclear SUBROCs that would detonate under the ship. The initial shockwave would severely damage the hull, and then the massive gas bubbles produced by the weapons would rise under the ship, and it would snap under it's own weight.

The engine isn't what makes the noise in a supercavitating torpedo. The big problem is the air cavity itself which creates an enormous mass of bubbles. It's the cavities are by definition rather unstable, with all kinds of fluid eddies and escaping gas. They are LOUD.

I don't see how a small 500 ton tactical nuke woudl elicit the kind of responce you seem to expect. It's not in either country's interests to escalate to a full out nuclear engagement; any nation that has the capabilities to build and use a nuclear torpedo will almost certainly have a large conventional reserve. If the other side begins a thermonuclear exchange, both sides will be destroyed. MAD.

As for supercavitating CIWS, the US's, as far as I know, only have a range of a couple of dozen meters, far to close for an effective engagement, not to mention turrets mounted underwater would drastically increase water resistance. So the only gun based supercav point defence can be mounted on the the deck. This gives them a maximum effective deapth of, say 50m, but they wouldn't be able to depress far enough to actually hit targets close to the ship. So a 'bottom attack' torpedo would be able to circomvent the point defence system.

Frankly, I would use a volley of 1kt or 1/2kt nuclear SUBROCs that would detonate under the ship. The initial shockwave would severely damage the hull, and then the massive gas bubbles produced by the weapons would rise under the ship, and it would snap under it's own weight.

It's my nations policy regarding nuclear weapons, and several others, that if any nuclear weapons are used in the battlefield - the response is tenfold. It's counted as a first strike to me :)

If you are willing to devistate your own country because of a tactical nuke... then I suggest you never use a Doujin on me =) Chardonayan tactical doctrine calls for extencive use of battlefield nuked, from Project Thermopylae recoiless rifle rounds and mines, to nuclear SUBROCs and ASROCs. There is a fundimental difference between a 500 ton battlefield nuke which is less than 1/50th of a WWII bombing mission and a 100kt stratigic nuke.

Whoops, that was me.

As usual Crookfur tends to judge things on case by case bugjet but really if you use nukes at all you should really expect revenge in kind (of course with crookfur it is likely that the response will be of a similar level unless of course it's a nuke attack on our land, well then you, me and the entire atlantic oceon are going bye bye along witha good bit of the world as well hence why we tend to be super restrained with our "family atomics" to use the Dune phrase).

If you are willing to devistate your own country because of a tactical nuke... then I suggest you never use a Doujin on me =) Chardonayan tactical doctrine calls for extencive use of battlefield nuked, from Project Thermopylae recoiless rifle rounds and mines, to nuclear SUBROCs and ASROCs. There is a fundimental difference between a 500 ton battlefield nuke which is less than 1/50th of a WWII bombing mission and a 100kt stratigic nuke.

Well, to be honest there isnt much. If you use a nuclear weapon of whatever size on my forces I will assume that the use of tactical nuclear weapons has been authorised and immediately and effectively destroy every viable military target with my own tactical weapons. What your response is after that is what you wish it to be. But Im afraid that is what you have to consider if anyone with a similar policy attacks you with super-dreadnoughts. Whether or not you see it differently is up to you, but YOU fired the first nuclear weapon, which means responsibility is on your shoulders.

So be careful in what you say, because it will be your fault if you decide to esculate the conflict with nuclear arms. This is not a bluff doctrine, so be very, very careful what you decide to do.

As for supercavs. The Shkval was designed as a 'revenge' weapon according to most sources I read, something the dying Soviet sub could fire at its attackers to take em down with it. It was never properly deployed though, so read into that what you will. But they do, through their cavitation, create a huge wall of noise that renders them easy to detect, as well as providing an active sound source to reflect off the submarine that fired them. Be advised against using them if you want to remain hidden. Chardoney is right, these things are LOUD.

I hope you dont mind me stepping in but one idea I havent seen listed here is a bubble theory based weapon. No not Bubble fusion, Im reffering to the effect of what happens when a ship passes over a natural gas pocket that is bubbleing up from the seafloor.

"Pockets of methane hydrates are released from the ocean floor and cause the water in that particular area to become less dense. Because of the loss of density, the buoyancy of the ship is affected and it sinks rapidly."

or atleast that was the theory, one of many that people suspected for such odd things as the bermuda triangle, and it was proven that a concetrated release of methan hydrate will (atleast in the tank tests they did) sink a ship very rapidly... wether or not such concentration was capable in nature who knows, but in this case the result can be achieved by building a device to mechanically replicate the effect.

In a sense if you created a large enough torpedo (probably closer to russian 620mm then the 533mm) filled it with cheap methane gas, and detonated/ forced a large amount of of the gas upwards a distance under the ship I believe it would at the very least form an acute area of stress under the keel of a large boat posibily breaking the keel/snappign it in half and helping to quickly send it to the seafloorby useing its own massive displacement agianst it.

... but then again Im not entirely sure how to facilitate the proper detonation/bubble system... but if it worked it would be an ungodly cheap non nuclear weapon for use against such an expensive system like super drednoughts and other captial ships.

Errrrm... Well... Ah.... I'm a bit of a dingbat and dont no how 2 do these things, but A. Be sure 2 tell me when u've done, and B. I will give a few million in financial backing if that helps.

I suppose I ought to clarify my nuclear doctrine... Nukes would not be used in a war of agression (chardonay does not indulge in wars of aggression) or during intervention with a third party state that has not authorized me to use nukes. If, for example, I came to the aide of an ally who requested me not to use nukes, I would abide by that decision. If I ever invaded another country, nukes would not be used. However, if someone agresses against ME, and uses high value units like superdreadnaughts, or enormous tank concentrations that are screaming for a neutron bomb, I would use it. By attacking me, the aggressor has signaled that they wish the destruction of my nation, and I will defend it, even up to the point of using Project Thermopylae nuclear rockets (small, tactical nukes that have a blast radius larger than their effective range). Should a Doujin class BBCN begin bombarding targets in my country, I would retaliate with Speargun-N ASROCs. If Freethinkers judge the use of nuclear deapth bombs against specific targets to be a full nuclear release, then they should consider that before attacking Chardonay, because it WOULD lead to a thermonuclear war no-one could win.

Not that you would attack me anyway =) Just an example

As for the bubblewarhead... it would need to be much much larger than that. The gas bubble released from even a 620mm torpedo wouldn't be big enough to seriosuly inconvenience any moderately sized ship. The pockets of methane they talk about are very very big. But that effect is what I was suggesting with the nuclear SUBROCs... don't detonate them near enough to the surface for the shockwave to propogate out... just make an enormous bubble of vaporized water.

Erinin already offers a torpedoe that will sink ANY modern vessel with one hit.
Including the Deadly and famous Doujin.
ER weapons have a startiling low yield capacity.
If you put some that conventional weapons cant sink effectively then you are demanding use of unconventionals, end of story.

Erinin already offers a torpedoe that will sink ANY modern vessel with one hit.
Including the Deadly and famous Doujin.
ER weapons have a startiling low yield capacity.
If you put some that conventional weapons cant sink effectively then you are demanding use of unconventionals, end of story.

W/e, you use nukes you pay the price. And what wonderful weapon is this?

A 12kt nuclear subroc... which is a little heavy, actually. We don't need to kill a city =)

And no, if you attack us, we will use nuclear weapons to defend ourselves. That is stated bluntly at the begining of each military RP. If you don't want to be nuked, you don't attack.

Another possible answer is massed drone torpedo-bomber attacks. Sure, a SD can shrug off some torpedos, but if enough Shkval design torpedos hit (and an air launched torpedo would have to be unguided anyway), it's performance will be signifigantly reduced.

Aditionally, how are supercavitating torpedos guided? I can see that they could potentially stear by changing the shape of the cavitation bubble and by extending fins, but how does it detect the target? Sonar would be useless, partly because of the shear amount of noise that the torpedo makes, and partly because of the extremely intermittant contact the torpedo would have with water. If subs can't effectively use sonar while sprinting at 30 knots, how would a torpedo going at 250 knots manage? Wire guided?

A 12kt nuclear subroc... which is a little heavy, actually. We don't need to kill a city =)

And no, if you attack us, we will use nuclear weapons to defend ourselves. That is stated bluntly at the begining of each military RP. If you don't want to be nuked, you don't attack.

Then you become a crater. Or a lake. Or a large glass plain, depending on your geographical features.

As for the bubblewarhead... it would need to be much much larger than that. The gas bubble released from even a 620mm torpedo wouldn't be big enough to seriosuly inconvenience any moderately sized ship. The pockets of methane they talk about are very very big. But that effect is what I was suggesting with the nuclear SUBROCs... don't detonate them near enough to the surface for the shockwave to propogate out... just make an enormous bubble of vaporized water.*shrug* heh to be honest I was trying to think of a cheap conventional method but your right it would probably be too small...

however what about something like a modified FCG (flux compression generator or projected short circuit concept to induce a massive hydrolitic reaction under the vessel useing the resulting oxygen, and Hydrogen to lower the water density but having a much larger area of effect... honestly im just throwing ideas out as the problems with nukes are obvious and have been retold several times in this thread.

A 12kt nuclear subroc... which is a little heavy, actually. We don't need to kill a city =)

And no, if you attack us, we will use nuclear weapons to defend ourselves. That is stated bluntly at the begining of each military RP. If you don't want to be nuked, you don't attack.

Well, as we are both non-aggressor nations, then the points moot :D. But you must understand that I consider my super-dreadnoughts as simply part of my fleet. (This is a general warning at everyone, not you Chardoney). If you use a nuke on them, I will use a nuke on yours. That simple. After all, if you attacked me and I used a nuke on your fleet, what would you do?

Of course, crippling a super-dreadnought is much easier than sinking it outright....

Artitsa: As would the person who attacked us. We have quite a large store of thermonuclear ballistic missiles as well as the tactical ones.

Freethinkers: I wouldn't build superdreadnaughts. And if someone nuked one of my fleets, I would begin using tactical nukes, avoiding civilians, and only as the situation warented. Probably I would mostly use smallish neutron bombs. I might go so far as to drop some chemical warheads on bases just to render them useless, but I wouldn't step up to the stratigic level.

An FCG might work... but again, I'm worried that the area of effect might be too small.

Another possibility is using the old Japanese idea of suicide subs. Very very large torpedos. Or small stealthy subs that could place limpit mines in a shot pattern...

And they aren't so easy to cripple. They have enough point defence to stop most missile attacks, and as for torpedos... well... you'd need to get several nice stern hits to cripple one.

Tactically... I'd probably try to engage the escorts and avoid the SD... once the escorts are gone, subs could try a torpedo attack.

*shrug* heh to be honest I was trying to think of a cheap conventional method but your right it would probably be too small...

however what about something like a modified FCG (flux compression generator or projected short circuit concept to induce a massive hydrolitic reaction under the vessel useing the resulting oxygen, and Hydrogen to lower the water density but having a much larger area of effect... honestly im just throwing ideas out as the problems with nukes are obvious and have been retold several times in this thread.

Its an interesting idea, and it could be applied if a super-dreadnought is transversing waters where it has little draft between its keel and the ocean floor. There you might just displace enough water to cause the ship to hit the bottom, basically crippling the ship even if it still remains afloat.

[Kelanis uses a two-stage torpedo for this type of work. Although rather huge and requiring its own special 800cm large-bore torpedo tube, this torpedo uses a relatively quiet electric motor (or in some versions an OTTO fuel engine) to move into position, then jettisons the aft section with explosive bolts. Then the rocket motor ignites, the air bottles blow off, and the forward half of the torpedo turns into a supercavitating dart, capped with a 1-kiloton plasma warhead. While they have a small blast radius, armor is of no protection against magnetically contained plasma. Several hits would be enough to melt through a superdreadnought's lower armor.]

BTW Freethinkers, isn't my 3-million ton carrier a 'famous' 'carriernought'? :-p

Getting the ship to hit the bottom isn;t enough... modern warships would bounce right back up. it would either need to hit hard enough to do structural damage, possibly spring a few leaks, or it would need to displace water in the center of the ship so it's only suspended by the bow and stern. That could potentially break the ships back... but I don't see how you coulf create a large enough reaction to displace enough water.

What about using a thermal reaction to boil the water. Have a spread of torpedos filled with something like thermite?

I don't see how a 1kt plasma warhead (even if it were possible, which it's not using moderntech) is any more acceptable than a nuke

[Kelanis uses a two-stage torpedo for this type of work. Although rather huge and requiring its own special 800cm large-bore torpedo tube, this torpedo uses a relatively quiet electric motor (or in some versions an OTTO fuel engine) to move into position, then jettisons the aft section with explosive bolts. Then the rocket motor ignites, the air bottles blow off, and the forward half of the torpedo turns into a supercavitating dart, capped with a 1-kiloton plasma warhead. While they have a small blast radius, armor is of no protection against magnetically contained plasma. Several hits would be enough to melt through a superdreadnought's lower armor.]

BTW Freethinkers, isn't my 3-million ton carrier a 'famous' 'carriernought'? :-p

Hmm, well, Plasma might be a bit future....okay, very future-techy for some people. Would work, and if someone attacked you with a super-dreadnought then alright. However you attack me and Id tell you where to stick your plasma torp ;) I remember the carrier too.....wasn't it originally 17 million tons?

Getting the ship to hit the bottom isn;t enough... modern warships would bounce right back up. it would either need to hit hard enough to do structural damage, possibly spring a few leaks, or it would need to displace water in the center of the ship so it's only suspended by the bow and stern. That could potentially break the ships back... but I don't see how you coulf create a large enough reaction to displace enough water.

What about using a thermal reaction to boil the water. Have a spread of torpedos filled with something like thermite?

I don't see how a 1kt plasma warhead (even if it were possible, which it's not using moderntech) is any more acceptable than a nuke

Erm, not quite Chardoney, most warships hitting the bottom would be damaged severely, thats a lot of weight coming down on it. If it were soft sand, well, the damage wouldnt be too bad, but on something rough, and with the ship driving forward then yeah goodbye ship.

EDIT: Alright, get a bit more technical. IF you cause the hull to drop you place an instantaneous amount of pressure on the ships keel and its verticle bulkheads. If you consider how much gravity is going to pull on the ship and how its going to even out when it hits the (usually) rough ocean floor then yes, most modern warships would be severely damaged.

Hmm, well, Plasma might be a bit future....okay, very future-techy for some people. Would work, and if someone attacked you with a super-dreadnought then alright. However you attack me and Id tell you where to stick your plasma torp ;) I remember the carrier too.....wasn't it originally 17 million tons?

OOC: Indeed it was, and then Kelanis cursed me out for being blunt in regards too it. *shrug*

Well, as we are both non-aggressor nations, then the points moot :D. But you must understand that I consider my super-dreadnoughts as simply part of my fleet. (This is a general warning at everyone, not you Chardoney). If you use a nuke on them, I will use a nuke on yours. That simple. After all, if you attacked me and I used a nuke on your fleet, what would you do?

Of course, crippling a super-dreadnought is much easier than sinking it outright....
The point I believe many are trying to make is that hese super-vessels constitute a similiar threat as a tactical nuke.
Being part of the Erinin Arms design team. The SubRoc we sell/use is a 7.2 standard yield ER-warhead.
The Cerberus is the vessel that Carries it(it should be noted now as it has been in the past that FallschrimmJager does not operate a military at all)
Since the Cerberus Nuclear Attack vessel is considered as simply part of a fleet it is no less a Strategic strike then one of these ridiculously oversized vessels.
The creator of such vessels are playing the deterrent game.
Simply put, the presence of a Super-Phallace on the High seas is daring someone to use tactical nuclear weapons if they have them to use, if they dont or wont because wealthier nations who can afford the costly to purchase and maintian Super-rubber duckies then they are effectivily impotent on the battlefield.
Nations who operate these WMD boats which is what they are, cry foul when someone nukes them, absurd.
AOH policy is simple.
A fair fight is we win, If losing your vessel is worth Nuclear war then by all means cotinue to bully other nations-it is no wonder N00bs(yeah I know I am one too) resort to nukes against Obsurd monoliths of the sea.

Hmm, well, Plasma might be a bit future....okay, very future-techy for some people. Would work, and if someone attacked you with a super-dreadnought then alright. However you attack me and Id tell you where to stick your plasma torp ;) I remember the carrier too.....wasn't it originally 17 million tons?

ROFL, yes it was, because I mistakenly put 'tons' instead of 'pounds' displacement. *shrug* Shaved down appropriately.

by the way, Doujin, you must admit your attitude regarding that situation was not very appropriate. Neither was mine.

The point I believe many are trying to make is that hese super-vessels constitute a similiar threat as a tactical nuke.
Being part of the Erinin Arms design team. The SubRoc we sell/use is a 7.2 standard yield ER-warhead.
The Cerberus is the vessel that Carries it(it should be noted now as it has been in the past that FallschrimmJager does not operate a military at all)
Since the Cerberus Nuclear Attack vessel is considered as simply part of a fleet it is no less a Strategic strike then one of these ridiculously oversized vessels.
The creator of such vessels are playing the deterrent game.
Simply put, the presence of a Super-Phallace on the High seas is daring someone to use tactical nuclear weapons if they have them to use, if they dont or wont because wealthier nations who can afford the costly to purchase and maintian Super-rubber duckies then they are effectivily impotent on the battlefield.
Nations who operate these WMD boats which is what they are, cry foul when someone nukes them, absurd.
AOH policy is simple.
A fair fight is we win, If losing your vessel is worth Nuclear war then by all means cotinue to bully other nations-it is no wonder N00bs(yeah I know I am one too) resort to nukes against Obsurd monoliths of the sea.

Well, Im not going to dictate policy to you, so whatever you wish to do fair enough. However, most users of these 'Super-rubber duckies' use them not to taunt people into using nuclear weapons, but rather, like myself, use them as defensive deterrents. It lets little warmongers know precisely what will happen to them if they try to attack me. I use my 'Super-rubber ducky' as an effective defensive measure, and if the ship is used to wreck their country afterwards, well, thats their own fault.

I do get your point though, and there are people here who will use these things aggressively, and, with those people I dont care if you attack them or not. I was simply informing you what I would do if you used a nuclear weapon on me, that is, a retalitory tactical strike. I would expect nothing less of you if the situation was reversed. Like I said, I fully respect your stance, even if it is a little....naive (although accurate with regards to some people I could mention). One other thing though...willy-waving is in fact a surprisingly important part of NS politics, just like it was in the cold war. Big ships are as much political muscle as they are military units.

Like I said, Im not an aggressor nation, so you will not face one of my own dreadnoughts. One last time: I respect your stance, but you must respect mine.

Well, big ships do carry big sticks. Especially when those big sticks are 35-inch ASMA cannons.

BTW, plasma torpedoes are not that incredibly far off of modern tech. Using lasers to heat appropriate ingredients for fusion, a superheated plasma can be created and sustained within a magnetic field. This is the principle behind the already-existent tokamak test fusion reactor. Kelanis's system just takes it a bit further- a miniaturized fission device- but instead of letting the reaction continue uncontrolled, cadmium rods dampen the reaction midway, and extremely powerful neodymium magnets contain the magnetic 'plasma' to a small sphere not more than 15 meters in diameter, until the blast vaporizes the magnets. By this time, however, the reaction has run out of fuel and collapses. Very little radiation is released, and although destruction is near-complete around ground zero, no damage aside from minor flash burns is dealt to anything outside the 15 meter reaction radius.

Freethinkers, please check TGs.

Falls- the Erinin SubRoc is a 12kt Warhead.
The 155mm shell is 7.2
The AOH/Erinin official policy is Defensive only.
and Falls, Freethinkers is correct on the issue of "Mine is Bigger then Yours"
Which is why we developed the "Mine is HARDER then yours" policy of low profile high fire power weapons sytems.
the AOH is essentiall a Merchant consortium, the SubRoc is an inexpensive alternative to the Large SuperShips.
Someone uses the BigBoats they know they are risking Nuclear attack, someone uses Nukes they know they are risking retaliation. That is how it goes you see who blinks first.
Someone said they wanted to see the SubRoc, I think it was FT.
The SUBROC is about the length and diameter of a standard torpedo, so that it could be ejected from a submarine tube. The weapon clears the ship and then the solid fuel rocket motor ignites coming out of the water.After breaking the surface the booster accelerates to a predetermined altitude and speed before separating from the payload and tumbling back into the sea, flying up to 25-30 miles to the computed impact point. At impact with the sea, it performed some underwater terminal maneuvers to close the predicted position of the intended target. Finally finding its target, a 39-inch long Mark 55 thermonuclear warhead, weighing approximately 460 pounds, was then detonated. A direct hit is not necessary.
Warhead:12KT.

Falls- the Erinin SubRoc is a 12kt Warhead.
The 155mm shell is 7.2
The AOH/Erinin official policy is Defensive only.
and Falls, Freethinkers is correct on the issue of "Mine is Bigger then Yours"
Which is why we developed the "Mine is HARDER then yours" policy of low profile high fire power weapons sytems.
the AOH is essentiall a Merchant consortium, the SubRoc is an inexpensive alternative to the Large SuperShips.
Someone uses the BigBoats they know they are risking Nuclear attack, someone uses Nukes they know they are risking retaliation. That is how it goes you see who blinks first.
Someone said they wanted to see the SubRoc, I think it was FT.

My bad..I meant what ER stood for...but I guess its just a nations initials.

Chardonay, you forget that many people possess ABM and SDI systems. Very good ones at that. So now I know, if I ever need to test my Nuclear missiles, I'll start a war with you ;).

FreeThinkers.
Sorry duh.
ER stands for "Enhanced Radiation"- commonly known as "Neutron Bomb"
a one KiloTon ER warhead will have slightly less blast radius then a stand fision warhead, homever the letal radiation emmited is different, first it is neutron radiation, which unlike a conventional nuke eradiates armour causing what would normally protect someone from standard radioactive pules to what will kill them.
Second a one kiloton ER warhead will eradiate an area equal to that of a 13 kiloton standard fision device.
They were design to destroy ICBMs and large armour formations(RL).
In NS they serve to do the same but also to attack superships.
You fire a lance missle into a wave rockets it knocks them all out of the sky.
you fire into a 100 tanks it kills them all.
and you only need to use a 1 kt bomb.
Not to bad.
The uses of tactical nukes(most of which are ER) is amazing and abundant.

A 12kt nuclear subroc... which is a little heavy, actually. We don't need to kill a city =)

And no, if you attack us, we will use nuclear weapons to defend ourselves. That is stated bluntly at the begining of each military RP. If you don't want to be nuked, you don't attack.

Another possible answer is massed drone torpedo-bomber attacks. Sure, a SD can shrug off some torpedos, but if enough Shkval design torpedos hit (and an air launched torpedo would have to be unguided anyway), it's performance will be signifigantly reduced.

Aditionally, how are supercavitating torpedos guided? I can see that they could potentially stear by changing the shape of the cavitation bubble and by extending fins, but how does it detect the target? Sonar would be useless, partly because of the shear amount of noise that the torpedo makes, and partly because of the extremely intermittant contact the torpedo would have with water. If subs can't effectively use sonar while sprinting at 30 knots, how would a torpedo going at 250 knots manage? Wire guided?

Confusing passive and active sonar there.

Sub passive sonar is affected by speed because the passive sonar uses very sensitive hydrophones.

If you're using something as noisy as a supercavitating torpedo it doesn't really matter if it uses active sonar for targeting. The sonar ping can be modulated so you can filter out extraneous stuff on the return, so it doesn't matter if the torpedo is noisy, and you don't have to worry about low signals so you can go as fast as you like. Of course active sonar won't be much use if your supercav goes faster than sound...

You can also wire guide them from the launch sub.

Put a high-depth missile submarine under it and fire large and powerful (Not necessarily nuclear) warheads strsaight up under the ship. It would be nearly impossible to beat.

I've got something to consider for you people that say you'd nuke a Doujin straight off with no consideration for the consequences. Think about how tight a missile shield someone can field if they can afford to buy a ship, if not multiple ships, that cost a quarter of a trillion dollars each. So you guys go ahead and start a nuclear war, you're going to come out on the loosing end against a rich and established nation.

FU..IN A!
I just posted a long reply and it was deleted. I'll reply to you all on this tomorrow, as I don't have the time now to re-type.

OOC Spoiler: The Doujin may lose its superiority soon... but I shouldn't have told you that!!

*prepars to lay down kilometer-long keel*

No, your satellites can't see through the specially-built dock shelter. :-P

OOC Spoiler: The Doujin may lose its superiority soon... but I shouldn't have told you that!!

*prepars to lay down kilometer-long keel*

No, your satellites can't see through the specially-built dock shelter. :-P

*Looks at carefully made specs for killing a Doujin that have taken months, and really rely on luck more than anything*

*Starts talking gibberish and running around in a circle*

Well, McLeod, this ship's design is being carefully planned, and designed, with a few helpful collaborations here and there.

And it will PwN the waterways.

Well, McLeod, this ship's design is being carefully planned, and designed, with a few helpful collaborations here and there.

And it will PwN the waterways.

God D**M it. Now i need to make a bigger bomb. I mean...erm *runs*

[*snickers* I have a bomb that I realized had the potential to take down a Doujin... and I'm not sharing

[*snickers* I have a bomb that I realized had the potential to take down a Doujin... and I'm not sharing

OOC: I still predict a race amongst most nations to see who can be the first to sink one in active service. It won't be Doujin's, since its too well defended. Need to find someone else who doesn't have a huge task force around it. *Walks away mumbling to self*

[And it won't be any of mine, either. Mostly because for every one Doujin in one of my fleets there will be 132 ships to protect it (including 12 very dangerous battlecruisers, 8 carriers, and 8 smaller "superships".) There's also another fact that I won't mention because I don't want people to see the suckerpunch coming, some of us will be laughing our asses off when it hits.]

OOC- Wow. I'm just imagining the effects of a minefield on that large of a fleet. "Sir, we've lost 32 Destroyers!"
"Keep moving, we're about halfway through the minefield! We'll be out soon."

[Minefields aren't planted out in the middle of an ocean and no competant naval tactician is going to run an entire fleet close to shore, especially when there's no reason to.]

OOC- Ahh, but what if there is a need to run the gauntlet? Mined river, fleet mined in a small bay somehow, etc.... And who's to say that mines were not planted, probably by subs, in the way of your fleet? With many types, they can't be detected until explosions start to go off.

[*shakes head* None of the scenarios you just laid out were very logical, but I won't waste my time trying to explain why because you wouldn't get it. Now please stop highjacking this thread.]

Neither will it be mine, simply due to a large portion of my navy being WIGs.

OOC: Each Assault Fleet has at least a dozen minelayer/hunter ships searching for mines ahead of the Doujin and clearing the way for the ship to get through. I have too many Doujin's for my own good. -.-

Our small naval weapons research department has been running virtual scenarios with a torpedo using dual shaped HEAP rounds (1000 lbs each), and we are getting ready to move into scale testing stages.

We believe this configuration stays true to our K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle, and that we could produce these without breaking our meager defense budget.

The benefits we see are the ability to defeat ablative armor and/or multiple hulled ships while simultaneously inflicting severe/crippling damage.

Some potential downsides are:

It's a non-standard sized torpedo (we estimate around 30 inches diameter, 25 feet long and around 5000 lbs), which could limit the deployment systems able to field it.
The tenative size of the warheads limit the space for more advanced guidance and countermeasure systems. Warhead size could be lessened, but we feel the offensive power lost by doing this is not worth the costs.


We would be happy to add our contributions as long as we can come to an agreement on information sharing and possible manufacturing contracts to come out of any collaboration.

Our chemical warfare department is also developing a nasty suprise. :)

Our chemical warfare department is also developing a nasty suprise. :)

That's probably another one of those situations where the 'victim' will have a nasty surprise for you in return.

That's probably another one of those situations where the 'victim' will have a nasty surprise for you in return.

Ah, what´s better than sore loser. Don´t worry, it´s relatively nature friendly. ;)
Besides, it´s still at theory stage. :D

All right. I'll try to repost.

First, I'd like to ask all the countries having discussions on nuclear and chemical weapons and effectiveness thereof to please take it somewhere else. Make your own bloody thread. The same goes for new ship designs. Again, take it bloody elsewhere.

Scandanavian States, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't tell the FRIGGIN CREATOR OF THIS THREAD to stop hijacking the thread. And I would prefer it if you would stop assuming such a condascendingly patronizing attitude with those here. If you can't stop, I'm going to have to ask you to leave. Oh, and in reply to me not understanding about naval war, every one of those situations was perfectly logical. Ever heard of mining tactics? And why won't you "waste" your time explaining why the situations aren't logical? Perhaps becuse you just want to sound smart and try to impress people and don't have a damn idea about what you're talking about?

Pogmo Thoin, that is an interesting idea. You are welcome in. If you want to talk production rights, TG me.

All the talk about various tactics to counter dreads is true, however, a torpedo is what we are trying to develop. So yes, those methods of destruction are relevant but not quite what is being looked for.

Anyone who gave funding is most helpful. Thank you.

Now, for the range issue. With advances in both engines, fuel sources, guidance, and metals and alloys, I would think that range could be increased greatly, probably nearing if not surpassing the range of conventional torpedos. Remember, the Shkval was invented in the 1970s. Any ideas on how to increase range would be helpful.

As for the screw, I feel spot welding the body of the torpedo to the hull somehow would work best to both:
-anchor the torpedo to the super dread
and
-counter the torque produced by the drill.
This seems to be fairly straightforward to do, although perhaps ideas on the quickest method of doing so could be given.

To spin the drill, we feel that if the engine of the torpedo were to cause it to spin while moving towards the target, the energy and momentum it has produced, combined with part of the torpedo becoming immobile and fixed to the hull will cause the torpedo to drill the screw around towards the hull and into it. Ideas, problems with this?

If any thoughts were not addressed, bring them back up and I'll try to address them.

The main problem with a drill is you need enough of an impact to dig into the hull, and then apply enough pressure to the torpedo to allow the drill to get a good purchase. I think a drill based torpedo would most likely glance off.

And no, I wasn't confusing passive and active. There aren't enough wet surfaces on a supercavitating torpedo to allow it to be actively guided, nor is there enough room to put a large enough active sonar array that could punch through the extranious sound, which isn't easily filtered because it is largly random and has an extremely high amplitude.

And yes, I realize that a ship hitting the bottom would take damage, but you specified that this would occur in shallow water... not enough of an impact in shallow water, and not enough water would be displaced to do it in deeper water. It would cause damage, but it's not a ship killer.

That's why you use

A. magnetic, and

B. laser proximity sensors

to guide your supercavs. Just add a vectorable thrust nozzle, let the magnetic homing system find his signature, and then let the laser explode the warhead when it gets close enough to overcome the refraction :)

Samtonia,

TG sent, I look forward to reaching an agreement on data sharing. This project intrigues me on several levels.

People, you have to stop being so narrow minded about the method of drilling.....Getting an actual drill to go through several feet of steel is difficult to do anywhere, let alone doing it underwater. Although my original post was ignored completely, I'm still going to try to push my point of using an alternative cutting method, like my plasma lances or maybe thermite pumps.

Funny Idea: A 120mm metal storm barrel loaded with phosphorus shells.

That's why I'm pushing the HEAP round, it acts much like your plasma jets or thermite pumps do as far as piercing armor goes.

For example:

The Russian Kornet-E anti-tank missle can defeat up to 3.9 feet of modern tank armor, and that's with a 29kg missle.

A single HEAP round in our design weighs around 375 kg by itself. Armor that could defeat two of those rounds in tandam will not be found floating on the sea...

Interesting...

As far as I know, the Kornet-E uses a HEAT warhead (High Explosive Anti-Tank) as opposed to a HEAP (High Explosive Anti-Personnel).

If you do in fact mean HEAT, it won't work too well. The fluidity of the water will disrupt the metal jet... as well, it isn't the weight of the explosive so much as the diameter... And even if you do manage to penetrate the armor... it wouldn't have much effect. These are bloody big ships, and a 1 foot hole in the side won't inconvenience them very much.

The metalstorm is interesting, but you;d get better performence if you spend the weight on explosives.

I'm not sure you could get a large enough metal detector to work under those conditions at long range... you would be detecting through induction, yes? I'm not sure if that would work... seawater conducts electricity very well. And laser designators... they wouldn't be able to penetrate the cavitation bubble. Beter to use a contact detonator, or a magnetic pistol.

The HEAP acronym has two meanings, the one I'm utilizing here stands for High Explosive Anti-Armor. I wouldn't imagine any anti-personel round being capable of damaging armor of that caliber.

As far as the metal stream being diverted, there is some loss of efficiency, but it would still be enough to punch a hole through.


As far as the diameter of hole made, well this torpedo isn't planned to be a one shot wonder, especially for some of the latest dreadnought designs. It is designed to penetrate their armor though, to cause damage where it was belived impossible before. Where one torpedo would cause a one foot hole, image a dozen or more detonating along one or all sides of one of these ships.

I'd think 12 one foot holes would give any commander some pause, especially considering the density and thickness of the armor at hand.

Pogmo, I hate to tell you this, but an Iowa's armour belt was a meter of rolled steel. A Doujin's armour belt is three or four meters (I forget which) of specifically designed armour that is twice as strong as any titanium armour and also has a heat resistence of several thousand degrees. Yes, your torpedo will do damage, but it won't even begin to flood one of the hundred of bulkheads that need to be flooded before the Doujin will even sink a few feet. You guys are seriously underestimating the toughness of the Doujin's armour scheme. Mind you, I doubt the copies have even a remotely similar passive protection scheme, so your torpedo might be more effective against the wannabes.

EDIT: Btw, you're going to have to nail all three hulls of a Doujin to damage it enough to take it out of the battle. I wish you all luck.

Well, as I for one don't want to go to war against Doujin anytime soon, here's to hoping it will be more effective against copies!

Oh, and we wouldn't have to nail all hree hulls. We'd just have to knock out its engine, so as to skirt it and engage the rest of the fleet.

Sileetris, sorry for not seeing your post. The only problem is, plasma is future tech and thermite would need such a large quantity to do anything that there would hardly be a warhead to speak of.

Pogmo, interesting ideas. If there could be a secondary explosive to destroy some of the hull after the hole is made, i.e: increase size of hole, perhaps those torps could be more effective.


Keep the discussion coming!

I know how to make plasma at modern tech............

Making a Doujin immobile makes it more dangerous during a fleet engagement, it suddenly becomes a very stable gun platform that can accurately fire a multi-ton shell 700 kilometers and almost never miss on the first shot. That does not bode well for the fleet engaging it.

Right, however that makes it so it can be easily bombarded by long range missiles and also makes it so that it cannot get to your nation. And 700km? That seems a little long.

Right, however that makes it so it can be easily bombarded by long range missiles and also makes it so that it cannot get to your nation. And 700km? That seems a little long.

If you note, my range is that of long range missiles. :P

Pogmo, I hate to tell you this, but an Iowa's armour belt was a meter of rolled steel. A Doujin's armour belt is three or four meters (I forget which) of specifically designed armour that is twice as strong as any titanium armour and also has a heat resistence of several thousand degrees. Yes, your torpedo will do damage, but it won't even begin to flood one of the hundred of bulkheads that need to be flooded before the Doujin will even sink a few feet. You guys are seriously underestimating the toughness of the Doujin's armour scheme. Mind you, I doubt the copies have even a remotely similar passive protection scheme, so your torpedo might be more effective against the wannabes.

EDIT: Btw, you're going to have to nail all three hulls of a Doujin to damage it enough to take it out of the battle. I wish you all luck.


OOC: Nevermind, I'm done with this thread. With the Doujin Fan Club promoting it's invulnerability, I'm already tired of it. Have fun with your Ubermunch...

Just wait until it gets close enough to shore, and then mash it with rail guns or scramjet rounds. I doubt even the Doujin can handle the behemoths you can place on land.

Just wait until it gets close enough to shore, and then mash it with rail guns or scramjet rounds. I doubt even the Doujin can handle the behemoths you can place on land.

It's designed so it doesn't have to get close to shore. :p

No Pogmo, don't go. Your ideas are invaluable.

And Doujin, I'd guess you're the person to ask again: How in the Lord's name can you fire an artillery shell with some semblance of accuracy 700km? Technically explained please. I want facts.

OOC: Then you force it close to shore. Easy. I've got a plan that would take some time, but would definately work.

It's designed so it doesn't have to get close to shore. :p

I know. But my defense network extends out to only 150km.

Ah well . . . only 13 days until I get my navy from you . . . I'd have thought Doujin would be able to make small corvettes and patrol boats faster than 60 every 15 years . . .

I know. But my defense network extends out to only 150km.

Ah well . . . only 13 days until I get my navy from you . . . I'd have thought Doujin would be able to make small corvettes and patrol boats faster than 60 every 15 years . . .

your order was low priority :p

Samtonia: 700 kilometers is using our Electro-Thermal Naval Gun systems in conjunction with SCRAMJet propelled guided artillery rounds. A conventional round would have about 300-400 kilometer range, SCRAMJet puts it up towarsd 700 kilometers.

OOC: We've already recieved Praetonian ships and are busily reverse-engineereing their software and weapons in order to bring them up to Weyrean standards. Some chaff/flachette guns to counter missiles and sea-skippers, better software, better systems, better missiles . . .
-----------------------------
IC:
Fleet Admiral Masato Storm: Can we give you [Doujin] an extra three billion USD to speed things up? It doesn't look good when navy ships are outgunned by pirates and smugglers.

OOC: A big enough explosion under the ship will break its keel.
Yes, your torpedo will do damage, but it won't even begin to flood one of the hundred of bulkheads that need to be flooded before the Doujin will even sink a few feet.The armor on the Iowa was so rigid that it theoretically could have sheered away from the hull bottom. If the Doujin's armor belt also goes down to the bottom of the hull, it might have a lot of trouble staying on.
EDIT: Btw, you're going to have to nail all three hulls of a Doujin to damage it enough to take it out of the battle.To take it out of the battle, would you have to do any more than destroy its sensors? Actually, the main guns might do that for you. A 20" gun can damage electronic equipment, optics, boats, and other equipment nearby.

OOC: Nevermind, I'm done with this thread. With the Doujin Fan Club promoting it's invulnerability, I'm already tired of it. Have fun with your Ubermunch...

It has nothing to do with invulnerability, it has everything to do with there not being an idea here that can't be easily countered. Like I've said before, instead of looking to special weapons, why don't you people look to tactics? I can take down a Doujin quite easily, but that's because of the fact that I've actually thought about it.

To take it out of the battle, would you have to do any more than destroy its sensors? Actually, the main guns might do that for you. A 20" gun can damage electronic equipment, optics, boats, and other equipment nearby.

The guns won't damage sensors, you'll have to ask Doujin or Freethinkers for the details on how, I just know it won't. And I think people are forgetting that a Doujin has a huge air wing, to take it out of battle you need to take down the ship's main sensors, the fire control suite for each turret, and then the air wing (some 160 aircraft).

The guns won't damage sensors, you'll have to ask Doujin or Freethinkers for the details on how, I just know it won't.Are you sure? (http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/history/marshall/military/wwii/Japanese.navy/jap_yamoto_bat.txt)

On to a torpedo.

Alright, thousands of degrees of heat. So superflashfreeze it THEN drill a hole. Or freeze then plasmalance. Instant crack and warping of metal. No metal known can take repeated heating and cooling without microflaws appearing.

Doujin:
Hit it with railgun projectiles repeatedly at the waterline. Then hit that area with explosive warheads, particularly of the HEAT design, or plasma-warhead (non-nuclear). When a hole was ripped, the ship would start to tear itself apart, it's weight and length working against it (can you say "leverage"?). Simple metal fatigue is going to work in favor of a sinking, so the advantage you're looking for is time.

There are other ways, a few I can think of readily that make it's "superdense" armor work against it, a few which take advantage of my home country's miserable weather and surrounding ocean (and those home court advantages will do wonderful things in my favor...). Overall - who cares? If it comes up, wonderful. If not, great - lets get on with this torpedo?

Vastiva sends 30 billion USD for developmental costs. (Hey, I wasn't doing anything else with my military this year...)

To: Vastiva
CC: Samtonia
From: Fleet Admiral Masato Storm
I've spoken with Wye International Consortium, which is Weyr's top ten most powerful companies, most of whom dable in militatry technologies. If you can show us proof of concept, we [read: they] can ship you US$40billion every year until the project is done.

Hmmmm. The flashfreezing is an idea that raises interesting possibilities. And then there's the fact that the cold would spread through the metal, weakening other areas of the hull and possibly injuring crewmembers and/or deleicate equipment. How could we cause that effect?

Also, your idea of using its bulk against itself is one that I unfortunately don't have much background in. Could you explain a few more ways perhaps, as that could be the breakthrough we need.

Nianacio, your posts are very interesting in regards to this. If 18s could damage it, than what would the 32s that Doujin uses do? Doujin, Freethinkers: Any replies to this?

Oh, and Scandavian States, you don't actually have to destroy all of that. If the main sensors can be destroyed, the ROF and the accuracy of the turrets will be severly limited. They are going to be engaging different targets and firing at differing times and rates. The actual efficiency would go through the floor.

My strategy against the Doujin:

1) Send in two teams of divers with magnetic kneepads and personal plasma lances, one to each of the side things on the ship

2) Cut holes in a single bulkhead area on each individual side, flooding it.

3) Enter through the holes, and lay a high-explosive device on each of the side things

4) Get the heck back to your mini-sub

5) Press a big red button and watch as the bulkhead walls go flying out the top of the ship, and each of the side things floods, causing the immense weight too much for the supports to handle, breaking off one of the side things, then the other will bring the center piece of the ship to it's side, which would begin flooding it.

With the limited information I have on the Doujin, it would work, but it's been a long time since I've read up on it. It is a trimarian, right?

*sighs* I'm tired of trying to explain to you guys why there isn't any weapon you can come up with, short of a nuke, that's going to do major damage in just a few shots. But, you guys keep on, maybe you'll get lucky and sink a Doujin-wannabe with one of these things.

OOC: We've already recieved Praetonian ships and are busily reverse-engineereing their software and weapons in order to bring them up to Weyrean standards. Some chaff/flachette guns to counter missiles and sea-skippers, better software, better systems, better missiles . . .


OI!

OI!
XD How could he do such a thing! Whatever you decide to do, I'm backing you on it, lol.

OOC: What are you doing to them, out of interest?

XD How could he do such a thing! Whatever you decide to do, I'm backing you on it, lol.

As long as he doesnt reproduce or sell the tech then nothing.

As long as he doesnt reproduce or sell the tech then nothing.
I would think that that's why he would reverse-engineer them, to steal all of your technology. Anyways, whatever he's doing with them, if you need help in a war, ask ^_^

Thankyou :D.

Meh the tech on my versions is better anyway.

Thankyou :D.

Meh the tech on my versions is better anyway.
LOL! You also have a gargantuian navy.

Anyways, I think we all need to find something that will break the Doujin class. I would suggest my CT-1 Lancer torpedo for the job, but I somehow think that Doujin would come up with some way to counter it.

Secret Message to Praetonia: We should create an alliance, lol. With your ships and my soon-to-be-massive-and-high-tech-air-force, we could be nearly unstoppable!

Well my navy isnt that big. It's huge for an April 2004 nation but it's no match for Doujin or Scandinavian States to name but a few

LOL! You also have a gargantuian navy.

Anyways, I think we all need to find something that will break the Doujin class. I would suggest my CT-1 Lancer torpedo for the job, but I somehow think that Doujin would come up with some way to counter it.

Secret Message to Praetonia: We should create an alliance, lol. With your ships and my soon-to-be-massive-and-high-tech-air-force, we could be nearly unstoppable! Secret Message to Kamata: Hey you forgot my huge and high tech army :(, and also when my navy is complete mine will actually be larger than his(we checked), and my air force is small like 1200 planes. Maybe we should. :D

Also for anyone who developes a weapon(realitically) that can take out a Doujin sized ship in matter of 25 or under strikes, will win a 5 trillion dollar prize.The reason for this is the massive maounts of Doujins that could be a threat.

Also for anyone who developes a weapon(realitically) that can take out a Doujin sized ship in matter of 25 or under strikes, will win a 5 trillion dollar prize.The reason for this is the massive maounts of Doujins that could be a threat.
I guess I couldn't come near that then. My torpedos are meant to be fired in groups of ten from linear torpedo tubes, and a sub that has 4 tubes could fire 80 of them per minute, and these are only small, armor melting torpedos, not really anything big. I like my diving team idea though, a page or two back.

I guess I couldn't come near that then. My torpedos are meant to be fired in groups of ten from linear torpedo tubes, and a sub that has 4 tubes could fire 80 of them per minute, and these are only small, armor melting torpedos, not really anything big. I like my diving team idea though, a page or two back.
We could make an exception but, I'm still not sure if it would be efective enough.

OOC:
OI!

What? It's not like I'm going to steal the tech. I'm a magitech nation, which allows me to do fun things with my weapons. I'm not going to sell or produce your ship designs . . .
----------------------------------
IC:
The Lance has been replaced with the RASN-1, which is faster and has an improved guidance and maneuverability package. The ship tracking and detection software has been modified to be compatible with our own Kamui system. More specifically, we've modified the Testudo for better compatibility with our other systems. And we've adapted the point-defense system to be able to better counter low-level missile threats.

And it turns out that whoever was making the orders forgot to get the production rights for the weapons systems, which is rather embrrasing. We have a multi-billion-dollar navy with no ammunition. As always, Weyr will not re-sell designs or items for which it owns production rights.

Production rights for Discus, Lance, and Javelin: sum: US$595million. Wired on confirmation

Confirmed.

Only one point, the Testudo is a point defence system.

OOC: Is the RASN real life? If not can I have a link?

Also for anyone who developes a weapon(realitically) that can take out a Doujin sized ship in matter of 25 or under strikes, will win a 5 trillion dollar prize.The reason for this is the massive maounts of Doujins that could be a threat.

I've already done it, where's my prize?

Doujin, an ECT cannon only increases muzzle velocity by about 25%.. given that a standard 30" gun (if there is such a thing) would only have about a 100km range (judging that a 16 inch gun has a range of only about 30km), and that's assuming you're using some kind of a Bull multichambered gun to keep muzzle velocity up, and have some kind of crane to keep the gun from collapsing under it's own weight. If you add a scramjet to it (Which I don't actually accept as moderntech) then you might get a maximum range of 700miles... however, so much of the shell would be used up by the scramjet and fuel that it wouldn't be able to carry an effective payload, especially since the scramjet would need to be situated in the center of the shell. Further, I fail to see how you would be able to land the shell with pinpoint accuracy without using active sensors in the shell, turning it into a gun launched missile rather than a shell, which would be horribly vulnerable to point defence given it's high trajectory.

I've already done it, where's my prize?
Which weapon do you use, I think he wants to know?

He can telegram me if he wants to know, I'm not going to say it publicly so people can copy it.

God, I am so fucking sick and tired of people questioning the design of the Doujin! Jesus H. Christ, the person who design this thing is a maritime engineering student who probably has ten times more knowledge about designing ships than the rest of you combined, and what's more the design was run by his professors just to make sure he got everything right. The design has been gone over with a fine tooth comb just so you people couldn't IGNORE it unless you wanted to look like idiots when Freethinkers, in the nicest and most polite way possible, tore you a new one. Just let it go and accept it, it's done.

He can telegram me if he wants to know, I'm not going to say it publicly so people can copy it. Alright TG it to me.

Well, I may not be a marintime engineering student, but I am a engineering student. And if you notice, I'm not questioning the actual design of the ship. I actually think it's a nice design, even though I personally am not fond of trimarines, I prefer FASTSHIP hullforms.

It's the cannon I object to. 30" cannon are obcene, and NEED STRUCTURAL SUPPORT! It is IMPOSSIBLE to make a tube that long and that thick that would NOT COLLAPS UNDER IT"S OWN WEIGHT. Not to mention the actual shells would be the size of ICBMs, the loading mechanism would be... bizzare, the muzzle blast would kill anything near it, and the muzzle velocity would be too low without a bull gun system. It HAS to use a bull gun. It's too long not to use a bull gun.

"From March of 1988 until the invasion of Kuwait in 1990, Iraq contracted with Gerard Bull to build three superguns: two full sized 'Project Babylon' 1000 mm guns and one 'Baby Babylon' 350 mm prototype. Nine tonnes of special supergun propellant could fire a 600 kg projectile over a range of 1,000 kilometres, or a 2,000 kg rocket-assisted projectile. The 2,000 kg projectile would place a net payload of about 200 kg into orbit at a cost of $ 600 per kg. The 1000 mm guns were never completed. After the war UN teams destroyed the guns and gun components in Iraqi possession. LEO Payload: 200 kg. to: 180 km Orbit. at: 33.0 degrees. Payload: 600 kg. to a: 500 km altitude suborbital trajectory. Total Mass: 2,000 kg. Core Diameter: 1.00 m. Launch Price $: 0.12 million."

"The Project Babylon gun would have a barrel 156 meters long with a one meter bore. The launch tube would be 30 cm thick at the breech, tapering to 6.5 cm at the exit. Like the V-3 the gun would be built in segments. 26 six-meter-long sections would make up the barrel, totalling 1510 tonnes. Added to this would be four 220 tonne recoil cylinders, and the 165 tonne breech. The recoil force of the gun would be 27,000 tonnes - equivalent to a nuclear bomb and sufficient to register as a major seismic event all around the world. Nine tonnes of special supergun propellant would fire a 600 kg projectile over a range of 1,000 kilometres, or a 2,000 kg rocket-assisted projectile. The 2,000 kg projectile would place a net payload of about 200 kg into orbit at a cost of $ 600 per kg."

Now, admitedly, DOujin gun can throw a projectile only about half that distance unassisted.... BUT IT IS ALSO TWICE THE DIAMETER AND MORE THAN 4x THE WEIGHT!

Chardonay: Yep, most definitly. And with that structural support, it would make the ship very heavy, very slow, and even bigger.

I also forgot to mention that although it says it's bore is 1000mm as compared to the Doujin's 700 something, that's because it fired SABOTS in order to get that range!

Jim will be back next Monday.

Jim will be back next Monday.
Jim?

Huh?

Interesting. So the Doujin's turrets are actually quite weak.

Erm . . . just an idea . . .

I remember reading an account of someone watching tank crews fire concrete-filled practice shells at decomissioned tanks. The person noted that the entire turret would sometimes be blown off the tank hull, as the turret-hull interface is the weakest design part of any tank.

Thus, why not target the turrets? I'm sure that the Doujin's turrets are not much better in terms of interface that normal tank ones. Also, even if you don't destroy the turrets, simply 'bending' the muzzles themselves would be enough to make them useless . . .

Then, you could disable the smaller weapons by overwhelming them.

The rudder/screws of the Doujin should still be fairly easy to destroy via regular torpedoes.

The aircraft can be dealt with in normal fashion. No sane commander would fire AA rockets or weapons if his/her own airplanes were in the air. If the commander is using fighters, then he/she won't be using very many AA guns, and you could get missiles through more easily. if the fighters are grounded, the they're sitting ducks for aerial/missile assault.

After the Doujin is softened up and dead in the water, you can board her with marines.

It woudln't work because the Doujin's turrets must way 10,000+ tonnes. Good luck 'blowing them off'.

Interesting. So the Doujin's turrets are actually quite weak.

Erm . . . just an idea . . .

I remember reading an account of someone watching tank crews fire concrete-filled practice shells at decomissioned tanks. The person noted that the entire turret would sometimes be blown off the tank hull, as the turret-hull interface is the weakest design part of any tank.

Thus, why not target the turrets? I'm sure that the Doujin's turrets are not much better in terms of interface that normal tank ones. Also, even if you don't destroy the turrets, simply 'bending' the muzzles themselves would be enough to make them useless . . .

Then, you could disable the smaller weapons by overwhelming them.

The rudder/screws of the Doujin should still be fairly easy to destroy via regular torpedoes.

The aircraft can be dealt with in normal fashion. No sane commander would fire AA rockets or weapons if his/her own airplanes were in the air. If the commander is using fighters, then he/she won't be using very many AA guns, and you could get missiles through more easily. if the fighters are grounded, the they're sitting ducks for aerial/missile assault.

After the Doujin is softened up and dead in the water, you can board her with marines.

The Doujin's turrets are not weak. The turret has over 30" of armor. Jim is Freethinkers, and when he is available to post here then the truth will come out, however I am going to maintain the fact that the turrets aren't "weak". Jim will be the one to have to show that, seeing as he is the maritime design student etc.

It woudln't work because the Doujin's turrets must way 10,000+ tonnes. Good luck 'blowing them off'.

35,000 tonnes. Also, the Doujin has no rudder or screws. It's propulsion is an advanced waterjet propulsion system, configured for steering and reverse etc.

(this is chardonay, btw)

You're right, it would be difficult to knock out the turrets. Knoicking out the abrrels of the guns, however, would be considerably easier. THEY are the weak point, as even minor damage would render them useless.

(Thank you Peace and Terror for bringing that up, I had forgotten it)

You don't need to blow the turrets off. The point would be to damage the things that make the turrets rotate so the turrets would not be able to move. At 30,000 tonns, those turrets are putting a hellish amount of stress onto the gears/whatever that they rely on to move. And the blast would probably do something nasty to the barrels themselves . . .

What if you were to send a few torpedoes at the water intakes for the waterjets?

You don't need to blow the turrets off. The point would be to damage the things that make the turrets rotate so the turrets would not be able to move. At 30,000 tonns, those turrets are putting a hellish amount of stress onto the gears/whatever that they rely on to move. And the blast would probably do something nasty to the barrels themselves . . .

What if you were to send a few torpedoes at the water intakes for the waterjets?

Well, when you find the intake valves you'll also find that they are in protective casings.

You probably could damage the barrels considerably with a couple of bombs, but how are you going to get the bombers over a Doujin? Remember, the Doujin is a fleet flagship, so it's going to have a fleet to protect it and it also has a considerable air wing just in case something does get through. I've said it before and I'll say it again, to even get to a Doujin requires tactics and not a little brute force.

Oh agreed... the purpose of the initial fleet actionn would be to kill the escorts. (at long range, the Doujin's shells could easily be targeted by point defence). Then send in the drone torpedo bombers... and doujin, if the water intakes are in protective casings, HOW DOES THE WATER GET IN? there has to be a hole, and if it gets hit, the hydrostatic force would damage the waterjet.

And no... the turrets aren't vulnerable. The barbettes would be too heavily armored. Remember, the gears are designed to repeatedly and easily move a 30 000 ton turret, no damage you do will inconvenience it.

Actually, your point defense would have to achieve considerable elevation and range to be able to even fire at a 30" shell and even then I doubt it would damage the shell, cause the thing is ten or fifteen tons of metal.

The biggest and best strategy I can think of, is to send in some hydroskipping missiles (Really fast missiles that have two wings under them that cause them to skip on top of the water. They don't fly because of a heavy payload) and take out all of the protecting fleet around it. Then you need to send in a massive barrage to the top deck consisting of ICBMs with a heavy payload, which would be non-nuclear, as well as a cannon fire from your own navy. Now remember to aim this at the control center and top deck of the ship, that's the only way to do it in.

THERE! That is my strategy.

Actually, your point defense would have to achieve considerable elevation and range to be able to even fire at a 30" shell and even then I doubt it would damage the shell, cause the thing is ten or fifteen tons of metal.

20 ton shells, and depending on the type of "point defense" system you are talking about.. *shrug* The shells are coated in reflecting pain, to protect it from "lasers" etc.

The biggest and best strategy I can think of, is to send in some hydroskipping missiles (Really fast missiles that have two wings under them that cause them to skip on top of the water. They don't fly because of a heavy payload) and take out all of the protecting fleet around it. Then you need to send in a massive barrage to the top deck consisting of ICBMs with a heavy payload, which would be non-nuclear, as well as a cannon fire from your own navy. Now remember to aim this at the control center and top deck of the ship, that's the only way to do it in.

THERE! That is my strategy.

There are alternative control centers among the ship, as well I might add back up systems. Any ICBM detected by Doujin forces are automatically assumed to be nuclear missiles and launch systems are started through the entire Doujin nuclear arsenal.

Um, all of the Doujins in the Doujinshi Navy are armed with (10, isn't it?) ICBMs, and nuclear ones at that, so if you launch an ICBM at a Doujin you're going to get ten right back in your face.

...When the top deck is completely levelled, what is there to control from these alternate control centers?

You're talking about thousands of missiles coming down from the sky on top of your flight deck, breaking supports, making holes in everything, etc. It's the same forces you would use to level a country without a nuclear arsenal.

Oh agreed... the purpose of the initial fleet actionn would be to kill the escorts. (at long range, the Doujin's shells could easily be targeted by point defence). Then send in the drone torpedo bombers... and doujin, if the water intakes are in protective casings, HOW DOES THE WATER GET IN? there has to be a hole, and if it gets hit, the hydrostatic force would damage the waterjet.

And no... the turrets aren't vulnerable. The barbettes would be too heavily armored. Remember, the gears are designed to repeatedly and easily move a 30 000 ton turret, no damage you do will inconvenience it.

Where did I say they were completely blocked off?

...When the top deck is completely levelled, what is there to control from these alternate control centers?

You're talking about thousands of missiles coming down from the sky on top of your flight deck, breaking supports, making holes in everything, etc. It's the same forces you would use to level a country without a nuclear arsenal.

I've had 5,000 missiles launched at my Fleet, and only had less than a hundred get through to the various ships - and if they are all directed at the Doujin makes it all the more easier to destroy. Also, remember, in regards to my fleet at least there are multiple Doujins.

SS: Ya... I've got missile silos on many of my ships, and in my mainland. The Doujin cannot stop that many missiles coming in all at once. Where would they fire the ICBM's anyways? They're not going to do much to a base hidden in the middle of a huge forest (The missile silos I have are not located anywhere near the base), and a base that's underground as well. Sure you may wipe a couple of 6ft thick armor plates on top of my aircraft and vehicle launch chutes, but I've also got missile defenses covering the area. A single Doujin couldn't take down an ICBM while there are thousands of smaller missiles and artillery rounds raining down on it.

I've had 5,000 missiles launched at my Fleet, and only had less than a hundred get through to the various ships - and if they are all directed at the Doujin makes it all the more easier to destroy. Also, remember, in regards to my fleet at least there are multiple Doujins.
OK, dude, be sensible. This is my entire navy and all of my missile silos firing missiles at you, sure it may cost me a lot, but you're talking way more than 5,000 missiles, and you cannot take half of them down if all of your escorts are being fired on or have been downed already.

These are fast and small missiles too, not just ICBMs.

Not talking about guns shootinmg down doujin's shells (though yes, they would need to elevate very high), I was refering to interceptor missiles. Agreed, something like a Phalanx would be useless (well, it might be able to prematurely detonate the shell, or knock out the guidence, but that would be unlikely), but my larger 155mm AA cannon would be able to hit the shell 40km away, knocking it off course and destroying guidence... same with SAMs.

20 ton shells, and depending on the type of "point defense" system you are talking about.. *shrug* The shells are coated in reflecting pain, to protect it from "lasers" etc.

Reflective paint? be seriious here... if I were using lasers, they would burn through the paint instantly. But I don't Interceptor missiles and 88mm and 155mm AA cannon., with the missiles engaging at 150nauticle miles and the heavy cannon at 40km.

Kamata: I was saying that the Doujin class ships that Doujin uses have ICBMs on them. And I'm wondering just how it is that your ships can mount ICBMs, to the best of my knowledge surface ships have to be absolutely huge to have them, an Iowa class can't even fit one horizontally, never mind vertically.

SS: Ya... I've got missile silos on many of my ships, and in my mainland. The Doujin cannot stop that many missiles coming in all at once. Where would they fire the ICBM's anyways? They're not going to do much to a base hidden in the middle of a huge forest (The missile silos I have are not located anywhere near the base), and a base that's underground as well. Sure you may wipe a couple of 6ft thick armor plates on top of my aircraft and vehicle launch chutes, but I've also got missile defenses covering the area. A single Doujin couldn't take down an ICBM while there are thousands of smaller missiles and artillery rounds raining down on it.

My Assault Fleets have multiple Doujins, not just one.

Reflective paint? be seriious here... if I were using lasers, they would burn through the paint instantly. But I don't Interceptor missiles and 88mm and 155mm AA cannon., with the missiles engaging at 150nauticle miles and the heavy cannon at 40km.

You'll have to talk to Freethinker about that, he's the one that said it.

I never said ships had ICBMs, did I? Sorry if I did, but it was a mistake.

I have 12 ICBM stations in the middle of the kamatian desert, and I have 24 underwater in various locations surrounding the Kamatian coastline. Each station has an under-station revolving loader capable of carrying standard Kamata sized ICBM's, which use liquid fuel.

Even then, I do still have aircraft and ships capable of carrying standard ATS missiles, and my hydroskipping missiles (Skip up and down on the water, underwater wing, don't fly because of VERY heavy payload and fuel, but go very fast. They extend into the ship when they hit their target, and the payload moves up front and explodes so it's inside the ship. Has two verticle rudders, one on the topside and one on the underside. Liquid fuelled by hydrogen, which explodes with the payload if there's any left, and still causes massive damage. Doesn't have to penetrate the ship to cause damage, but won't do much to the Doujin, only it's less-armored escorts. Guided by satellite) can be loaded onto my bombers and will start up when they hit the water.

You're talking, if you put all of my effort into destroying a doujin and it's escorts, especially if I have allies, a force that could wipe out a lot.

My Assault Fleets have multiple Doujins, not just one.
Big whoop. That just doubles the effort I need to put into it.

Doujin: I really think we should publicly RP this sometime so we can see what is possible and what is not. Don't underestimate me either, I've been here since April '03, but was ressurected. You may want to be careful what you say to me, lol.

Big whoop. That just doubles the effort I need to put into it.

Doujin: I really think we should publicly RP this sometime so we can see what is possible and what is not. Don't underestimate me either, I've been here since April '03, but was ressurected. You may want to be careful what you say to me, lol.

Oooooh, i'm scared- you have two hundred million more population than I am, and a worse economy! So you think you can take out (the) largest Navy on NationStates? My entire military is the Navy, I have other nations who would do Army and Air Force duties for me, so I completely removed them and spend my 3.5-4 trillion (depending on the calculator) defense budget on the Navy.

Oooooh, i'm scared- you have two hundred million more population than I am, and a worse economy! So you think you can take out (the) largest Navy on NationStates? My entire military is the Navy, I have other nations who would do Army and Air Force duties for me, so I completely removed them and spend my 3.5-4 trillion (depending on the calculator) defense budget on the Navy.

You
http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php?nation=Kamata&defenseprovided=1&defense=15&militarybudget=1

http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=Kamata

Me
http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php?nation=Doujin&defenseprovided=1&defense=15&militarybudget=1

http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=Doujin

^^ As you can see, I have a larger defense budget than you do, according to the two most used calculators.

Oooooh, i'm scared- you have two hundred million more population than I am, and a worse economy! So you think you can take out (the) largest Navy on NationStates? My entire military is the Navy, I have other nations who would do Army and Air Force duties for me, so I completely removed them and spend my 3.5-4 trillion (depending on the calculator) defense budget on the Navy.
I do, I really do Doujin. I'm entirely focused on Navy and AirForce. Then I also have a huge space fleet which would not count here, but was before the ressurection.

Want to post your forces, Doujin? I'll gather mine up then post it.

You can do anything if you set your mind to it. I don't need big fancy Doujins to win, I use my brain instead of a huge floating rock with guns on it.

I do, I really do Doujin. I'm entirely focused on Navy and AirForce. Then I also have a huge space fleet which would not count here, but was before the ressurection.

Want to post your forces, Doujin? I'll gather mine up then post it.

You can do anything if you set your mind to it. I don't need big fancy Doujins to win, I use my brain instead of a huge floating rock with guns on it.

I don't have to wank numbers to prove it (i.e. I don't want to have to switch over to Linux to get the numbers right now, just ask everyone around me though :)). however, I do point out again that I have a much larger defense budget in relation to you, therefor I can field a lot more than you can.

[Edit: I'll give you a general idea, however.

Aegir Fleet (Go me for copying a name!)
5 Doujin Class Mk.2 Refit BBCN
1 Ocean Class Aircraft Carrier
2 Infusion Class Aircraft Carrier
4 Leviathon Class Battleships
5 Thunder Child Class Mk.2 Refit Battleships
5 Warspite Class SSGN
15 Astron Class SSN(Fast Attack Sub)
10 Tigershark Class AOE
10 River CLass AOE
10 Clan Grant Class AOE
10 Norasia Class AOE
25 Centaur Class DDG
10 Meteora Class DDG
10 Mackensen Class BBs
30 Broadsword Class Frigates
14 Africa Class Minesweeper/layer
7 Saviour Class Medical Ship

4x Assault Fleet
3 Doujin Class Mk.2 Refit BBCN
1 Ocean Class Aircraft Carrier
2 Infusion Class Aircraft Carrier
4 Leviathon Class Battleships
5 Thunder Child Class Mk.2 Refit Battleships
5 Warspite Class SSGN
15 Astron Class SSN(Fast Attack Sub)
10 Tigershark Class AOE
7 River CLass AOE
7 Clan Grant Class AOE
10 Norasia Class AOE
20 Centaur Class DDG
10 Meteora Class DDG
10 Mackensen Class BBs
20 Broadsword Class Frigates
7 Africa Class Minesweeper/layer
7 Saviour Class Medical Ship

30-35 Battlefleets, consisting of 25 ships each

3 Defense Fleets(Pretty much same as an assault, minus the Doujins and used for defense only)
2 Escort Fleets(60 ships each)

Go you, Doujin.

2x Assault Fleet

1 Behemoth Class Nuclear Super Carrier
1 Omega Class Trimeran Battleship
4 Trebuchet Class Trimeran Land-Bombardment Cruiser
2 Griffin Class Trimeran Light Cruiser
6 Cassius Class Trimeran Destroyer
4 Dauntless Class Trimeran ASW Frigates
6 Earl Class Trimeran AA Frigates
2 Oberon Class Trimeran Missile Defense Frigates
6 Legionary Class Minesweepers
4 Storm Class Trimeran Hovercraft Carrier

1x Surface Combat Fleet
1 Behemoth Class Nuclear Super Carrier
1 Tempest Class Nuclear Carrier
2 Omega Class Trimeran Battleships
4 Alpha Class Trimeran Heavy Cruisers
2 Griffin Class Trimeran Light Cruisers
8 Cassius Class Destroyers
6 Dauntless Class Trimeran ASW Frigates
6 Earl Class Trimeran AA Frigates
2 Oberon Class Trimeran Missile Defense Frigates
6 Legionary Class Minesweepers

2x Defensive Fleet
1 Omega Class Trimeran Battleship
2 Alpha Class Trimeran Heavy Cruisers
4 Griffin Class Trimeran Light Cruisers
4 Jolt Class Trimeran Long Range Pursuit Destroyers
12 Cassius Class Trimeran Destroyers
8 Dauntless Class Trimeran ASW Frigates
8 Earl Class Trimeran AA Frigates
4 Oberon Class Trimeran Missile Defense Frigates

1x Submarine Flotilla
8 Portland Class Nuclear Attack Submarine
2 Tiberius Class Land Attack Submarine

10x Long-Range Attack Fleet (1,126.54km Max Distance for all ships to fire)
40 Steel Class Tugboats
20 Longbow Class 1,000mm Artillery Floating Gun Platforms (Liquid Nitrogen Cooled, single direction, 4 anchor, firing rate: 1round every 5minutes)
5 Tigershark Class Trimeran Long-Range Missile Destroyers
5 Pirahna Class Hydroskipper Deploying Destroyers
5 Oberon Class Trimeran Missile Defense Frigates
2 Replenish Class Ammunition/Supply Ships
2 Phlat Class Railgun Trimerans (Seawater Cooled, 20mm Tall - 100mm Wide Projectiles, Gold-Plated Contacts, 1 Railgun/ship, 4 Anchor)

5x ICBM Fleet
10 SandStorm Class Quadmeran Helicopter Carriers
10 Ion Class Tugboats
8 Flame Class ICBM Carriers (Two per carrier, latch on to side of Candlestick platforms, most of it is contained underwater)
5 Oberon Class Trimeran Missile Defense Frigates
2 Candlestick Class ICBM Platforms (Most of it is contained underwater)

11x Replenish Fleets
21 Praebo Class Fleet Replenishers
5 Oberon Class Trimeran Missile Defense Frigates

Remember, I'm not new. Some of it was built up last year, some of it now. I've got something special to come too. Also, that's not exactly my whole navy... I'm going to have to find my list from before.

I'll post up my airforce soon.

(I'd just like to point out that if anyone wants to use plasma lances, they must buy the technology from me, because I developed it personally)

Go you, Doujin.

2x Assault Fleet

1 Behemoth Class Nuclear Super Carrier
1 Omega Class Trimeran Battleship
4 Trebuchet Class Trimeran Land-Bombardment Cruiser
2 Griffin Class Trimeran Light Cruiser
6 Cassius Class Trimeran Destroyer
4 Dauntless Class Trimeran ASW Frigates
6 Earl Class Trimeran AA Frigates
2 Oberon Class Trimeran Missile Defense Frigates
6 Legionary Class Minesweepers
4 Storm Class Trimeran Hovercraft Carrier

1x Surface Combat Fleet
1 Behemoth Class Nuclear Super Carrier
1 Tempest Class Nuclear Carrier
2 Omega Class Trimeran Battleships
4 Alpha Class Trimeran Heavy Cruisers
2 Griffin Class Trimeran Light Cruisers
8 Cassius Class Destroyers
6 Dauntless Class Trimeran ASW Frigates
6 Earl Class Trimeran AA Frigates
2 Oberon Class Trimeran Missile Defense Frigates
6 Legionary Class Minesweepers

2x Defensive Fleet
1 Omega Class Trimeran Battleship
2 Alpha Class Trimeran Heavy Cruisers
4 Griffin Class Trimeran Light Cruisers
4 Jolt Class Trimeran Long Range Pursuit Destroyers
12 Cassius Class Trimeran Destroyers
8 Dauntless Class Trimeran ASW Frigates
8 Earl Class Trimeran AA Frigates
4 Oberon Class Trimeran Missile Defense Frigates

1x Submarine Flotilla
8 Portland Class Nuclear Attack Submarine
2 Tiberius Class Land Attack Submarine

10x Long-Range Attack Fleet (1,126.54km Max Distance for all ships to fire)
40 Steel Class Tugboats
20 Longbow Class 1,000mm Artillery Floating Gun Platforms (Liquid Nitrogen Cooled, single direction, 4 anchor, firing rate: 1round every 5minutes)
5 Tigershark Class Trimeran Long-Range Missile Destroyers
5 Pirahna Class Hydroskipper Deploying Destroyers
5 Oberon Class Trimeran Missile Defense Frigates
2 Replenish Class Ammunition/Supply Ships
2 Phlat Class Railgun Trimerans (Seawater Cooled, 20mm Tall - 100mm Wide Projectiles, Gold-Plated Contacts, 1 Railgun/ship, 4 Anchor)

5x ICBM Fleet
10 SandStorm Class Quadmeran Helicopter Carriers
10 Ion Class Tugboats
8 Flame Class ICBM Carriers (Two per carrier, latch on to side of Candlestick platforms, most of it is contained underwater)
5 Oberon Class Trimeran Missile Defense Frigates
2 Candlestick Class ICBM Platforms (Most of it is contained underwater)

11x Replenish Fleets
21 Praebo Class Fleet Replenishers
5 Oberon Class Trimeran Missile Defense Frigates

Remember, I'm not new. Some of it was built up last year, some of it now. I've got something special to come too. Also, that's not exactly my whole navy... I'm going to have to find my list from before.

I'll post up my airforce soon.

Where's the stats on them? All I see is floating cardboard boxes :D

Hey!

Kamata: I was saying that the Doujin class ships that Doujin uses have ICBMs on them. And I'm wondering just how it is that your ships can mount ICBMs, to the best of my knowledge surface ships have to be absolutely huge to have them, an Iowa class can't even fit one horizontally, never mind vertically.

I see no reason why a surface ship couldn't carry them... if a SSBN can carry them, why not a CAGN?

Nianacio, your posts are very interesting in regards to this. If 18s could damage it, than what would the 32s that Doujin uses do? Doujin, Freethinkers: Any replies to this?I imagine they'd do damage, but I don't really know.
the person who design this thing is a maritime engineering student who probably has ten times more knowledge about designing ships than the rest of you combined, and what's more the design was run by his professors just to make sure he got everything rightShip design knowledge=/=Military ship design knowledge
My entire military is the Navy, I have other nations who would do Army and Air Force duties for me, so I completely removed them and spend my 3.5-4 trillion (depending on the calculator) defense budget on the Navy.It seems that for everyone to have adequate levels of protection, they'd have to have non-existant navies, making your navy practically no bigger than anyone else's.

Off-topic, but on the topic of the Doujin: I ran the 30" gun through a naval gun simulator (I had to guesstimate on some things, and it doesn't know of scramjets or ETC), and it thinks it'd have a range of less than 3,000 yards and penetrate less than 10" of WWII quality vertical armor.

I imagine they'd do damage, but I don't really know.
Ship design knowledge=/=Military ship design knowledge
It seems that for everyone to have adequate levels of protection, they'd have to have non-existant navies, making your navy practically no bigger than anyone else's.

Off-topic, but on the topic of the Doujin: I ran the 30" gun through a naval gun simulator (I had to guesstimate on some things, and it doesn't know of scramjets or ETC), and it thinks it'd have a range of less than 3,000 yards and penetrate less than 10" of WWII quality vertical armor.

What simulator is this?

If it simulates WWII guns then I suppose that this is reasonable, but the fatal flaw in that sim is that is doesn't take into account the massive strides ballistic and materials engineering that has taken place since WWII.

What simulator is this?It's called Big Gun.
the fatal flaw in that sim is that is doesn't take into account the massive strides ballistic and materials engineering that has taken place since WWII.It does ask for the ballistic performance of the shells, but yea, it was calibrated for the US 16"/50 firing a superheavy shell.

If ETC would make the muzzle velocity 25% higher, it says it'd have a maximum range of 5,200 yards and penetrate about 12" of armor.

It's called Big Gun.
It does ask for the ballistic performance of the shells, but yea, it was calibrated for the US 16"/50 firing a superheavy shell.

Well, your calculations were a bit off I do believe. I found this "Big Gun" program and put in the information Freethinker gave me from before, the muzzle velocity, degree of most possible inclines, weight of the shell, ballistic design etc etc.. I got 413100 yards and a deck penetration of 49.77 inches, and belt penetration of 36.54 inches

I found this "Big Gun" program and put in the information Freethinker gave me from before, the muzzle velocity, degree of most possible inclines, weight of the shell, ballistic design etc etc.. I got 413100 yards and a deck penetration of 49.77 inches, and belt penetration of 36.54 inchesWhat muzzle velocity and shellform factor did you use? That's a lot better than what I got, but still hardly 700 miles.

What muzzle velocity and shellform factor did you use? That's a lot better than what I got, but still hardly 700 miles.

700 kilometers, and I wasn't doing it for SCRAMJet or ETC powered guns.

Material several times harder than any titanium based alloy, and unaffected by heat up to a huge number of degrees?

No problem. I just use my future-tech weapons on it. Space based satellite lasers or somesuch. Or even just a next generation armour-defeating staged warhead. Noone claiming to have armour that far in advance of anything we can comprehend could complain about that, surely?

700 kilometers, and I wasn't doing it for SCRAMJet or ETC powered guns.Using your specs (which I'd be interested in seeing), it seems that the program agrees with your current range claims. However, it also seems to me that unless this program is useless with such a large gun, you'd be lucky to get a range of five kilometers with ETC but no scramjet.

Material several times harder than any titanium based alloy, and unaffected by heat up to a huge number of degrees?

No problem. I just use my future-tech weapons on it. Space based satellite lasers or somesuch. Or even just a next generation armour-defeating staged warhead. Noone claiming to have armour that far in advance of anything we can comprehend could complain about that, surely?

[I believe he said twice as hard as Titanium alloys, and there are quite a few alloys that manage that. And unless you have more comprehension of what materials can do than the people working at Ames Laboratory who have PhDs in their fields by their desks, you're not in a place to critisize Doujin's armour.]

I personally have no trouble with anything about the doujin other than the cannon... the armor plating is certainly possible... it would be possible to have armor even better than doujin's fairly easily using carbon nanotubes and advanced ceramics... it would be prohibitively expencive, but possible.

I got ranges closer to 400km using Big Gun... but that was using a muzzle velocity of 2.2km/s, better than most tank guns. Big Gun doesn't modle things in excess of, say, 20 inches very well, because barrel and muzzle velocity change dramatically with very big guns. A standard cannon upsized to 30" would have a pitiful muzzle velocity.

[The velocity is off, Doujin got a range of 700km using an ETC velocity and that gets upwards of 4Km/s.]

I personally have no trouble with anything about the doujin other than the cannon... the armor plating is certainly possible... it would be possible to have armor even better than doujin's fairly easily using carbon nanotubes and advanced ceramics... it would be prohibitively expencive, but possible.

I got ranges closer to 400km using Big Gun... but that was using a muzzle velocity of 2.2km/s, better than most tank guns. Big Gun doesn't modle things in excess of, say, 20 inches very well, because barrel and muzzle velocity change dramatically with very big guns. A standard cannon upsized to 30" would have a pitiful muzzle velocity.

I don't use carbon nanotubes because that would push it out of my (rigid) tech limit of 2010.

I personally have no trouble with anything about the doujin other than the cannon... the armor plating is certainly possible... it would be possible to have armor even better than doujin's fairly easily using carbon nanotubes and advanced ceramics... it would be prohibitively expencive, but possible.

I got ranges closer to 400km using Big Gun... but that was using a muzzle velocity of 2.2km/s, better than most tank guns. Big Gun doesn't modle things in excess of, say, 20 inches very well, because barrel and muzzle velocity change dramatically with very big guns. A standard cannon upsized to 30" would have a pitiful muzzle velocity.

Ill sort this out engineer to engineer when I get back...okay? BTW I agree with you to a point on partial bouynacy disruption. It depends on the surface the surface you hit when you hit the sea bottom in the large vessel. I concedde if it hits sand or stable rock structure it will survive (with damage). Anyway, Im on holiday. sort it out on monday.

I personally have no trouble with anything about the doujin other than the cannon... the armor plating is certainly possible... it would be possible to have armor even better than doujin's fairly easily using carbon nanotubes and advanced ceramics... it would be prohibitively expencive, but possible.

I got ranges closer to 400km using Big Gun... but that was using a muzzle velocity of 2.2km/s, better than most tank guns. Big Gun doesn't modle things in excess of, say, 20 inches very well, because barrel and muzzle velocity change dramatically with very big guns. A standard cannon upsized to 30" would have a pitiful muzzle velocity.

Ill sort this out engineer to engineer when I get back...okay? BTW I agree you hit when you hit the sea bottom in the large vessel. I concedde if it hits sand or stable rock structure it will survive (with damage). Anyway, Im on holiday. sort it out on monday.

Carbon nanotubes are in production now, $200 a gram. In a couple of years, that'll drop in half once they get the kinks out of the laser based production methods... what do you think the new japanese fuel-cell based comuputer uses? carbon nanohorns.

Carbon nanotubes are in production now, $200 a gram. In a couple of years, that'll drop in half once they get the kinks out of the laser based production methods... what do you think the new japanese fuel-cell based comuputer uses? carbon nanohorns.

It isn't ready for military grade use now, and won't be for awhile.

Neither is ECT or scramjets, but that doesn't stop you

Neither is ECT or scramjets, but that doesn't stop you

ECT and SCRAMJets are getting ready to be used, carbon nanotubing isn't predicted to be used for military for another 10 years. By 2030 it will be to the personal level for bulletproof etc, but now it is far from ready.

2010. Good on you for having a hard and fast limit. I'm fairly new to NS and I've seen a lot of silliness with people tech-one-upping each other.

What material is this ship made of? It needs to be common enough that you can build several HUGE vessels from it, and I need to know what it is so I can assess feasibility etc.

Anyway, next suggestion from the Wyrd Wyrm Wypons Lab:

Scatterpack rounds dropping many many small explosive charges into the path of the ship. There is no way it can avoid them, and if using waterjets to propel itself it will suck them in, and then they can detonate inside it.

A single EMP pulse will blind the ship. You can certainly harden the internal systems, but anything out there sensing stuff will sense it's last.

The superstructure can be pounded by air or missile attack. Unless the ship is armoured all over it will be left without many systems.

Also, modern explosives tend to defeat modern armour. Actually tend is a soft way of putting it. The armour on a modern MBT can not always deal with one impact from a man-launched RPG. If explosives and armour advance at the same rate in the next 6 years this will remain the case, and I see no reason why they shouldn't.

Obviously a ship like this would not die easily. But for it's cost I believe it would. It's main benefit is political - Battleship diplomacy many times over. If one of those turned up on my shores, I'd seriously consider what the ambassador had to say :-)

Your biggest problem in destroying it is the fleet surrounding it. If someone can afford to build one of these, they can afford a HUGE protective fleet. The ship alone would die to a tiny fraction of it's value in carefully chosen systems.

I wish to join the team and can donate a Guillen I superbattleship for testing the torps on. I only design super dreadnoughts to combat Doujins and would love to help. I have kevlar armor and triple layers of steel to stop penetration so try to get by my hull for it.

I wish to join the team and can donate a Guillen I superbattleship for testing the torps on. I only design super dreadnoughts to combat Doujins and would love to help. I have kevlar armor and triple layers of steel to stop penetration so try to get by my hull for it.

God, that is so funny! Thanks for the laugh :D

Only replying to last page of posts. Will reply to rest tomorrow. Doujin, if you keep your tech to 2010, how do you include scramjets? AFAIK, there aren't going to be actual military models of them for quite a while. Only prototype versions are going to be ready soon.

Doujin, if you keep your tech to 2010, how do you include scramjets?Sixteen-inch scramjet projectiles were successfully test-fired in the early 1960s.

[Holy shit, that early?! I knew they did some tests in the 80s and early 90s, but I had no idea they did tests before that.]

[Holy shit, that early?! I knew they did some tests in the 80s and early 90s, but I had no idea they did tests before that.]Supposedly (http://www.g2mil.com/Oct2001Letters.htm). The PDF file linked to in my link as proof is no longer online, and the Internet Archive doesn't have it.

You're thinking of ramjets, not scramjets. Scramjets are still in preliminary testing stages, and have massive problems with flameouts.

The problems with nanotubes aren't ones that need technical breakthroughs... they simply need a lot of money pumped into them. And they ARE ready for use, its problems manufacturing enough of them that have held them back.

You're thinking of ramjets, not scramjets.The person who wrote the message on the site may have been, but I'm not.

On August 16, 2002, the University of Queensland in Australia completed the first successful flight of a scramjet vehicle, reaching speeds of Mach 7, or seven times the speed of sound.

http://www.nasa.gov/missions/research/f_scramjets.html

On July 30, 2002 the University of Queensland HyShot team culminated many years of work when they sent their second scramjet payload up into the atmosphere on the back of a Terrior Orion rocket in a test flight. They made history - it turned out to be the first successful launch of a scramjet in the world.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/hyshot/default.htm

On August 16, 2002, the University of Queensland in Australia completed the first successful flight of a scramjet vehicle, reaching speeds of Mach 7, or seven times the speed of sound.

http://www.nasa.gov/missions/research/f_scramjets.html
I found an article (http://www.arnold.af.mil/aedc/newsreleases/2001/2001-287.htm) saying the "first-ever successful free flight of a hypersonic projectile powered by a supersonic combustion ramjet (scramjet) engine burning hydrocarbon fuel" was made in 2001.
/hijacking

IN any case, not in the 60s as was claimed.

and scramjets are NOT ready for military use, as was also claimed. This isn't hyjacking... well, not really. It turned into a bit of a discussion of the Doujin technology, and the doujjin's alleged ability to hit targets 700 miles away with scramjet assisted shells is a major part of the technology. and it is NOT moderntech, because it hasn't been done, and scramjets still don't work very well.

IN any case, not in the 60s as was claimed.

and scramjets are NOT ready for military use, as was also claimed. This isn't hyjacking... well, not really. It turned into a bit of a discussion of the Doujin technology, and the doujjin's alleged ability to hit targets 700 miles away with scramjet assisted shells is a major part of the technology. and it is NOT moderntech, because it hasn't been done, and scramjets still don't work very well.

700 kilometers, get that right. 700 kilometers and 700 meters is a big difference. And there are SCRAMJet shells currently being fired, and gun systems made for use of these shells. There isn't, however, armor made of carbon nanotubing that is ready for use today. There are shells, shell designs, and delivery systems.

My appologies... you listed your calibers in inches, I assumed you'd stick with one measurement system. My mistake.

While there is no carbon nanotube armor in production, that isn't because it isn't easily possible. Carbon fiber and carbon whisker armor DOES exist, and carbon nanotubes work in the same way. The problem isn't in applying the technology, the problem is in making enough nanotubes. And note... I never said I use nanotube armor... it would be far too expencive.. main belt armor for a 130 000 ton ship that I'm develing would alone cost $6 billion... I'm not prepared to spend that much.

And I would like proof, please, that scramjet assisted shells are currently in use by ANY military... I couldn't find any. I wish there were, because then I'd use them too... but I don't believe there are. There was one russian scramjet engine test in 1992, but it didn;t work. An american test in 2001 that had to be destroyed. An american scramjet shell test in 2001 that went a grand total of 260 feet and was extremely close to the ground. And the successful austrailian test in 2002. That does not sound like a successful, reliable, mature peice of tech to me.

Nanotubes are being planned into armor and electronics, and should be making their debut as soon as the price drops low enough. Will you feel better if I mention carbon whiskers instead? Those are definately modern tech, and are only 10-20 times as strong as steel.

Doujin... don't take this as an attack. i really do like the doujin, and it;s a magnificent peice of research. I only have problems with the guns, and with the scramjets (which are widely accepted... I have problems with ANYONE who uses scramjets, including my allies Hamptonshire and Praetonia)

[A lot can happen in six years and modern tech is commonly accepted as Present-2020.]

[That's begining to change... 2020 is becoming supermodern/postmodern/possible technology. I don't doubt that in a few dozen years we'll have scramjets. but we'll also have nanotube armor, effective AA lasers, far better computers... I don't think it's possible topredict what will be available in 20 years, I stick with 5-10

[That's begining to change... 2020 is becoming supermodern/postmodern/possible technology. I don't doubt that in a few dozen years we'll have scramjets. but we'll also have nanotube armor, effective AA lasers, far better computers... I don't think it's possible topredict what will be available in 20 years, I stick with 5-10

Then maybe you need to look harder? I got at least a dozen PDF files regarding SCRAMJet and projectiles. And where did I say it was currently in active use against people? The DD(X) ship will be using an Advanced Gun System that will use assisted projectiles to reach 80-100 miles range. So, it isn't that far off from being in use, and it most defniatly is in the tech bracket I hold, which is up to 2010.

no need to get so upest doujin.

I wouldn't mind seeing some of those PDFs, if they are online. And I dont actually care if there are plans for them... there are plans for 'Rods from God' but they aren't going to happen either any time soon. What I want to see are actual TESTS.

*sighs* I'm tired of trying to explain to you guys why there isn't any weapon you can come up with, short of a nuke, that's going to do major damage in just a few shots. But, you guys keep on, maybe you'll get lucky and sink a Doujin-wannabe with one of these things.

There will always be a weapon capable of destroying any defense. That is a simple matter of history.

The Doujin has vulnerabilities - pierce the armor, cause melting and fracturing, and it's 1 km length becomes a liability. It would end up sheering itself. There is -NO- metal immune to metal fatigue and eventual breakage. Speeding up the process is how most weapons work. ;)

And I don't care if it takes 1000 torpedoes to sink a Doujin, torpedoes are cheap comparatively.

Hmmmm. The flashfreezing is an idea that raises interesting possibilities. And then there's the fact that the cold would spread through the metal, weakening other areas of the hull and possibly injuring crewmembers and/or deleicate equipment. How could we cause that effect?


Well, I'm a subarctic country, so the ocean itself does a good part of the work. There's real danger to being caught in a slurry which freezes...


Also, your idea of using its bulk against itself is one that I unfortunately don't have much background in. Could you explain a few more ways perhaps, as that could be the breakthrough we need.

Simplest - the Doujin's bulk is so immense, any turn causes stress. IF you cause an area which cannot take the stress, the action of turning will tear the ship apart via inertial forces. This is because the Doujin is so much longer then it is thick.



Oh, and Scandavian States, you don't actually have to destroy all of that. If the main sensors can be destroyed, the ROF and the accuracy of the turrets will be severly limited. They are going to be engaging different targets and firing at differing times and rates. The actual efficiency would go through the floor.

I'd love to know how the sensors stand repeated fire, and how they are invulnerable to enemy action. Eyes are usually a vulnerable point in any combat device.

the ocean isn't cold enough to adversly affect the armor... metalurgy has come a long way since the titanic

The ship would not rip it'self apart in a tight turn... it simply wouldn't be able to turn tightly... that's a major disadvantage, but secondary guns make up for it.

the sensors would be degraded after getting hit... Hitting the thing is the problem, it has massive point defence.

Firstly you can't blame certain people for being a little upset. If there was a real world forum entitled "How to sink America's big ships" then you could understand them being a lot more upset than Doujin is. We should stop talking about Doujin specifically, and talk about SBBs. Although it's pretty much universally recognised the Doujin is a leader in it's class, and so defeating it would usually mean you could defeat other SBBs.

Any technology I discuss here is strictly theoretical. Your scientists may be able to develop it, and mine will sell it to any nation being threatened unreasonably by a nation with super-BBs.

So...

Blinding the sensors with an EMP blast, then hitting it through reduced PD seems like a good plan.

I also have a specific technology idea in development (see attached .gif)

The Ingressor Missile flies just above the surface, before lofting and releasing ballistic submunitions. These land in front of the SBB, and are taken into its water inlets, where they explode in a confined space.

Some are designed to go off on contact, to blow away any mesh guarding the intakes, others use pressure and acceleration to gauge when to explode inside the jet.

Of course it doesn't work if the thing is stationary, and doesn't work anything like as well if the SBB you are attacking uses props. However I'm yet to be convinced that any modern armour can cope with modern explosives, especially underwater, so hull-contact explosions might be enough.

It would seem one basic idea is to immobilize it - and that's not that difficult, just feed explosives to the intakes. Either you seal the intakes because they blow up on the "guards" or the munitions get sucked in and blow up there, causing more havoc.

The "sheer flood" system of stupidmissiles and stupidtorpedoes would be an option - nothing can handle 100K plus missiles fired at it, and even "goes in a straight line" can't miss an immobile hunk of metal 1 kilometer in length.

As to cold -the cold of the subarctic sea is a problem to any metal object going through it. Gratis, not as much as way back in the Titanic era, but freezing temperatures can still cause microflaws to start up. Now, add the slush freezing and the ship being immobilized and pressure applied via ice, and you have a problem. But superfreezing followed by superheating - that would snap metal like mica. The question is how to do it.

My current favorite - make a multi-mile cave under the sea. When the superbattleship and battlegroup get above it, pop the cork. The resulting whirlpool should finish the fleet. Yep, it's rather "what the hell?" but you could make the hole, cause the damage, with current technology.

Doujin: the AGS is a long barreled 155mm gun that uses basic rocket assited rounds that effectively glide a fair way to thier target.

none of the articals that you or SS have shown about SCRAmjet assited rounds have shown anything than a need for a huge increase in materials science and fuels for the developemnt of rounds that will survive the firing from a 120mm gun, never mind a 30" monster...

of course with a strict 2010 tiemtable even ETC become iffy, yes a full sized 120mm system exists but they still as yet don't know enough about the plasma interactions to scale the design either up or down in size and this comes from one of NS's formost ETC evangelists

Firstly you can't blame certain people for being a little upset. If there was a real world forum entitled "How to sink America's big ships" then you could understand them being a lot more upset than Doujin is. We should stop talking about Doujin specifically, and talk about SBBs. Although it's pretty much universally recognised the Doujin is a leader in it's class, and so defeating it would usually mean you could defeat other SBBs.

Any technology I discuss here is strictly theoretical. Your scientists may be able to develop it, and mine will sell it to any nation being threatened unreasonably by a nation with super-BBs.

So...

Blinding the sensors with an EMP blast, then hitting it through reduced PD seems like a good plan.

I also have a specific technology idea in development (see attached .gif)

The Ingressor Missile flies just above the surface, before lofting and releasing ballistic submunitions. These land in front of the SBB, and are taken into its water inlets, where they explode in a confined space.

Some are designed to go off on contact, to blow away any mesh guarding the intakes, others use pressure and acceleration to gauge when to explode inside the jet.

Of course it doesn't work if the thing is stationary, and doesn't work anything like as well if the SBB you are attacking uses props. However I'm yet to be convinced that any modern armour can cope with modern explosives, especially underwater, so hull-contact explosions might be enough.

They are protected - they wouldn't get into the water jet system.

They are protected - they wouldn't get into the water jet system.
Unless you have 30 inch armor over the water jet system too, no they're not. And protection would still slow your ship wayyy down. Stop making excuses of why it wouldn't work. We know you're just creating things as you go.

They are protected - they wouldn't get into the water jet system.

How are they protected?

The intakes have to let water in - LOTS of water to get something like that moving.

Intakes create vacuum.

Vacuum sucks in explosives.

*BOOM*

Either the guard is bruised to busted, or the explosives go inside and make more trouble.

Any protection which would stop a bomb would stop water.

This secretive "oh it wouldnt' work" arguement is weak - either provide specs as to why or accept there's a flaw and the ship would have a problem.



And y'all already know about using a ships weight against itself, this is why torpedoes in WW2 were set to blow under the ship - the weight of the ship downward conflicted with the force the torpedo made upward, and the ship broke.

the ocean isn't cold enough to adversly affect the armor... metalurgy has come a long way since the titanic

The ship would not rip it'self apart in a tight turn... it simply wouldn't be able to turn tightly... that's a major disadvantage, but secondary guns make up for it.

the sensors would be degraded after getting hit... Hitting the thing is the problem, it has massive point defence.

Cold-heat-cold-heat-cold-heat-*snap*. Something that big has it's own problems with metal fatigue.

If I put a hole large enough in the ship, a turn will put stress on said hole, and it will tear open. Particularly if said hole removes supports.

Massive or not, it has ammunition. This means it will run out of said ammunition. It also means it has a limit on performance - so, again, flights of dumb missiles aimed at the immobile Doujin will eventually make it blind, holed, and sinking.

Again - current method would be to:
(a) hole armor with railgun rounds
(b) concentrate fire on those holes using laser-guided missiles (holes are not protected by reflective paint).
(c) fire occasional nerve gas, biological or chemical warheads into said holes. Anything to make life difficult for the crew.

That, or fire off sooty smoke at the Doujin, then fire lasers at the soot covered parts. Paint would also work, something absorbative, which would make the laser work better and "cook" off the reflective coating.

There's always a way.

Technically you could protect it with a bunch of fencing, another good idea would be to have long metal poles extending out a bit from the intake. The fence would stop a bomb from entering, and cause it to detonate far away from the actual engines(which are probably down very long tubes), the metal poles would do the same. Torpedos are another story, but since the Doujin is so large, metal poles in this case could be huge metal girders, so theres a pretty good chance of stoping one.......Technically though, the intake could just be a few thousand holes the size of pennies that are drilled through full-thickness armor. And lets not forget that you could make multiple stages of intake, and use both my ideas....

Also using the ships own weight against it won't work so well with the Doujin, if you read the armor and defensive scheme provided in the link in his sig, it explains why.

I'd also like to point out that sending flight after flight of missiles will kill almost anything, including you, because the fleet surrounding the Doujin will be firing swarms of missiles right back at you.

Its true there is always a way, but in a case such as this it will always be costly......

I love the Doujin, against most people it will act as a damage sponge while its 'escort' fleet proceeds to blow them out of the water. Its almost as if the Doujin is escorting a fleet, not vice versa.

>Technically you could protect it with a bunch of fencing

Technically the bombs set to explode at the intake would blow the fencing or metal poles up. Also Technically fencing doesn't work when you've just blown a large hole in it.

>Technically though, the intake could just be a few thousand holes the size of pennies that are drilled through full-thickness armor.

Technically though, any armour with a few thousand holes the size of pennies drilled through it is

a)going to need a lot more holes to push a ship that size through the water
b)going to fail when a bomb goes off next to it, because you've kindly pre-failed it by drilling holes in it.

It's also already designed and built, so unless the blueprints have such safeguards in them...BANG. Oh, I glanced at the picture of it, and there is an obvious rudder assembly at the rear end, so you could just hit that with a torpedo or two. That should have a good chance of crippling it Bismark Styley.

>Technically you could protect it with a bunch of fencing

Technically the bombs set to explode at the intake would blow the fencing or metal poles up. Also Technically fencing doesn't work when you've just blown a large hole in it.

>Technically though, the intake could just be a few thousand holes the size of pennies that are drilled through full-thickness armor.

Technically though, any armour with a few thousand holes the size of pennies drilled through it is

a)going to need a lot more holes to push a ship that size through the water
b)going to fail when a bomb goes off next to it, because you've kindly pre-failed it by drilling holes in it.

It's also already designed and built, so unless the blueprints have such safeguards in them...BANG. Oh, I glanced at the picture of it, and there is an obvious rudder assembly at the rear end, so you could just hit that with a torpedo or two. That should have a good chance of crippling it Bismark Styley.

That isn't a rudder, heh.

"lets put this large rudder shaped thing, and attach it like a rudder at the back of the ship"

"Ok. Why"

"No idea.....actually wait. It's a secret weapon"

"Ok. Cool"

"Yeah"

"What happens when it gets hit, and starts messing with how we can manouvre our ship?"

"It won't"

"Why not?"

"It's not a rudder."

Sorry, that wasn't entirely fair. I just found the "you missed me" response irritating. Probably a flashback to "cops and robbers". I apologise.

Would you care to state what it is, why it is less susceptable to damage than it appears, and why messing with it won't affect steering of the ship?

And I suppose the intakes idea works? If you like I can start designing counter-measures :-D

That is one of the large waterjets.

That is one of the large waterjets.

At least in the Mk.1, the Mk2 looks considerably different.

Unfinished piccy (http://www.gaizme.com/images/DoujinBBCN(4).GIF)

The Doujin is a trimaran so why not target the areas between the hulls?

I'd also like to point out that sending flight after flight of missiles will kill almost anything, including you, because the fleet surrounding the Doujin will be firing swarms of missiles right back at you.

Not entirely true. If you would have paid attention to my strategy, the fleet around the doujin goes first with possibly a hundred at most, Hydroskipping missiles. After they're downed from the massive explosion by the warhead and remaining fuel (The warhead needed to be heavy, and in the center to keep it skipping, not flying. When it hits and possibly pierces the ship, the warhead flies to the front and explodes), then I can safely say that the Doujin(s) will not be able to return fire, as any missiles that they might be able to get off, assuming the hatches aren't blown in and the missiles haven't already exploded, would probably end up hitting the water or another missile of mine or theirs, due to their guidance system already trying to focus on the thousands of missiles flying in from the sky, or being hit by the explosions of those thousands of missiles. It's probably that way less than 100 would hit any of my forces.

Speaking of Rods o' God, do linear satellites work? I think shooting a small asteroid at a ship with magnets would work pretty well.

Not entirely true. If you would have paid attention to my strategy, the fleet around the doujin goes first with possibly a hundred at most, Hydroskipping missiles.

You assume you will get the chance to fire first, and you assume your missiles are better. A hundred at most? Even a hydroskipping missile can be intercepted, and in such low numbers........

would probably end up hitting the water or another missile of mine or theirs, due to their guidance system already trying to focus on the thousands of missiles flying in from the sky, or being hit by the explosions of those thousands of missiles. It's probably that way less than 100 would hit any of my forces.

The only system that focuses on missiles are the CIWS, which are unrelated to guiding his missiles. There would be no loss of accuracy to his missiles unless he was damaged before firing them, and since he will fire the same time you do....

~~~~~~~~

In any case, I propose an alliance against Kamata, because his hydroskipping missiles are too good. I will start a thread about it.

You assume you will get the chance to fire first, and you assume your missiles are better. A hundred at most? Even a hydroskipping missile can be intercepted, and in such low numbers........
Well, yes, if I were to attack a doujin, yes, I would fire first. Yes, my missiles are better. Hydroskipping missiles go mach 7 scooting across the water, what does he have to hit something that low and that fast? And in such low numbers with warheads that weigh more than you.


The only system that focuses on missiles are the CIWS, which are unrelated to guiding his missiles. There would be no loss of accuracy to his missiles unless he was damaged before firing them, and since he will fire the same time you do....
Yes there would be lots of loss of accuracy in his missiles, and CIWS couldn't keep up with the sheer amounts that come in. The loss of accuracy would be because with thousands of missiles pounding you, you're not going to be very accurate. It would hit targetting arrays, missile hatches, and you're also trying to fire missiles through a blanket of thousands of missiles, you're likely going to hit one. No he would not fire the same time as me, because if I'm sending in really long range missiles, he is not going to fire the same time. He'll only discover them several seconds before they hit him.

What really bothers me, is 1) No-one is paying any attention to my postings and 2) If Doujin gives BS reasons for things not working, you accept it. If I give very reasonable reasons for things working or not working, you don't accept it.

I'M OLDER THAN DOUJIN, LOOK AT MY POPULATION! IF I RAISE MY ECONOMY JUST A TAD BIT, HE IS A BUG! THERE ARE FLAWS WITH MANY OF HIS SYSTEMS AND YOU'RE TRYING TO PROTECT HIS BS ANSWERS!

Well, yes, if I were to attack a doujin, yes, I would fire first. Yes, my missiles are better. Hydroskipping missiles go mach 7 scooting across the water, what does he have to hit something that low and that fast? And in such low numbers with warheads that weigh more than you.

At mach 7, water=jagged concrete. If you only fire a bit more than 100 missiles, you are basically sending 1 missile per ship, and given each ship has 2-4 point defense guns, I doubt the missile could get through. Also, though it doesn't really matter, a warhead that weighs more than me is pretty much standard issue...

Yes there would be lots of loss of accuracy in his missiles, and CIWS couldn't keep up with the sheer amounts that come in. The loss of accuracy would be because with thousands of missiles pounding you, you're not going to be very accurate. It would hit targetting arrays, missile hatches, and you're also trying to fire missiles through a blanket of thousands of missiles, you're likely going to hit one. No he would not fire the same time as me, because if I'm sending in really long range missiles, he is not going to fire the same time. He'll only discover them several seconds before they hit him.


He has long range missiles too, and you better not be talking about your hydroskipping missiles being long range, because hydroskipping isn't nearly as fuel efficient as normal flight. He'll discover the incoming missiles at about the same time you fire them, because if you can see him, he can see you.

~~~~~~
Lets demonstrate with a mock battle:

Kamata: My fleet moves into position to fire.
Doujin: Seeing your fleet movements, we prepare a return fire in case you try anything.
Kamata: I fire my missiles.
Doujin: Seeing him fire, I immediately return fire.
*Doujin is hit by Kamata's missiles*
*Kamata is hit by Doujin's missiles*
Kamata and Doujin: ONOS WERE SINKING OUR WHOLE FLEET!!!11
Doujin: Luckily some of the Doujin's big guns are still working....
*Kamata's damaged fleet is savagely raped by Doujin's heavy guns*
Kamata: Onos I messed with a competant naval force and expected to win without effort because of slightly superior armament. Freaking wallhack fag server!
Doujin: Who wants to help build me a new fleet!
Etc.
Etc.
~~~~~~

So far I've yet to see your side demonstrate his flaws, give us a list. In the meantime, your side has many flaws of its own, yet refuses to aknowledge them, because hey, you're just brainstorming......

~~~~~~
Also Wyrd Wyrm, about the thousands of penny sized holes, it doesn't matter if the armor is weakened there, because nothing will happen when it is breached, the area behind that armor is by default filled with water. If that design was used, that armor would not only have to be breached, but also blown out of the way in order to hit the engines.

At mach 7, water=jagged concrete. If you only fire a bit more than 100 missiles, you are basically sending 1 missile per ship, and given each ship has 2-4 point defense guns, I doubt the missile could get through. Also, though it doesn't really matter, a warhead that weighs more than me is pretty much standard issue...



He has long range missiles too, and you better not be talking about your hydroskipping missiles being long range, because hydroskipping isn't nearly as fuel efficient as normal flight. He'll discover the incoming missiles at about the same time you fire them, because if you can see him, he can see you.

~~~~~~
Lets demonstrate with a mock battle:

Kamata: My fleet moves into position to fire.
Doujin: Seeing your fleet movements, we prepare a return fire in case you try anything.
Kamata: I fire my missiles.
Doujin: Seeing him fire, I immediately return fire.
*Doujin is hit by Kamata's missiles*
*Kamata is hit by Doujin's missiles*
Kamata and Doujin: ONOS WERE SINKING OUR WHOLE FLEET!!!11
Doujin: Luckily some of the Doujin's big guns are still working....
*Kamata's damaged fleet is savagely raped by Doujin's heavy guns*
Kamata: Onos I messed with a competant naval force and expected to win without effort because of slightly superior armament. Freaking wallhack fag server!
Doujin: Who wants to help build me a new fleet!
Etc.
Etc.
~~~~~~

So far I've yet to see your side demonstrate his flaws, give us a list. In the meantime, your side has many flaws of its own, yet refuses to aknowledge them, because hey, you're just brainstorming......

~~~~~~
Also Wyrd Wyrm, about the thousands of penny sized holes, it doesn't matter if the armor is weakened there, because nothing will happen when it is breached, the area behind that armor is by default filled with water. If that design was used, that armor would not only have to be breached, but also blown out of the way in order to hit the engines.
I'm not talking about the actual missile going into and out of the water. The missile has a wing on the bottom that skims on top of the water, skips in and out, or skims slightly underwater. Yes, hydroskippers are very long range. You can compress hydrogen into a high-psi tank and store tons of it.

If you paid any attention, over 700km away from his fleet, 1) He can't shoot his big guns because they only reach 700km - 2) He's not going to be looking that far out for anyone usually - 3) Did I not mention that I'd most likely be having jamming equipment running, making my ships look like a seagull or plain old ocean? It'd be more like this:

----------Mock Battle----------
Kamata finds Doujin's fleet
Doujin sees a few waves or a flock of seagulls
Kamata fires missiles straight up into the sky, where they travel above the clouds to Doujin's position and rain down on top of him
*Doujin is hit and scrambles to find Kamata's position, but only finds ocean and seagulls floating around*
Kamata fires another wave of missiles
*Doujin scrambles harder to find the positon, and finds a tiny ping on his sonar, but all of a sudden his flight deck and any missile hatches go up in flames, and the communications array is swamped with missiles*
Kamata fires another wave of missiles
*Doujin hangs it's head in shame as the communications array explodes, and missiles start to breach his ship and explode*
Kamata sends in a wave of Hydroskipping missiles just to scare the pants off the doujins crew
*Pants go flying in the doujins crew, and what's left of his guns fire off randomly in different directions*
Several of the shells hit some Kamatian tugboats in the missile fleet, as well as a few smaller missile frigates and some close range battleships, sinking them
*Doujin hears the big pings on his radar and turns his guns in my direction*
Choice words go flying through the Kamata crew, when all of a sudden, a huge explosion rumbles across the sea, and the Kamata crew gets word that some linear satellites belonging to their country just fired some small metal-containing asteroids through the atmosphere, and that asteroids the size of a fist ended up breaking off the side hulls of the giant battleship, causing the ship to tilt over and capsize when the guns fired a second later
---------End Mock Battle---------

That's more or less how it would turn out. And since doujin mentioned that rods of god would defeat his ship, and linear satellites are basically the same thing, I'm including this in the same modern technology level that I'm at.

If I had any flaws, please let me know. Notice I did mention that a few of his shells did hit my fleet and I was detected in the end, but not much happened except for a few tugboats capsizing, and two or three battleships having a 30" hole in the sides or top-bottom of them and sinking.

It would be easier if I did just take out his entire fleet with a few large asteroids being fired at high speeds, but using my navy is also kinda fun.

I know what a hydroskipper does, I'm just questioning how something can travel mach 7 while scraping against something that behaves like a jagged solid surface at high speeds and claim to be long range on top of that. I'd also like to know what engine uses hydrogen besides a ramjet(which needs to be started at high speeds) or scramjet, and how said engine behaves when water enters it.

2) He's not going to be looking that far out for anyone usually

You do realize hes working on a satellite network right? Even now, fleet movements of the size we're working with can be fairly detected by anyone with a basic satellite. I'd also like to mention that I am helping to upgrade his radar, and I have extremely good radar(I can explain logically and oocly why it can't possibly be jammed).

a 30" hole in a ship a kilometer long isn't really so bad......

Rods of god are a good idea, but he is entitled to return fire with his own if he has them.

You'd be surprised what you can do with radar.

I could counteract it with many things, including putting my own radar out on the same frequency or whatever it uses in a certain pattern using little rods on all of my ships to make your radar glide right over it.

And the satellite thing, sure it may present a problem, but wouldn't you think that usually, a ship over 700km away wouldn't present much of a threat to such a giant ship? And besides, those linear cannons of mine don't only point at earth. I could shoot little metal filings at his satellites and they'd go out. 30" armor won't help you there, especially in space.

Edit: The engine intakes air through large valves on the front of the missile and shoots it out with the hydrogen in the whirlwind pattern on the back of the missile, which then ignites, and forms a whirlwind shape which is capable of producing thrust that can reach 15%-20% more air than a conventional missile. My ships capable of shooting hydroskippers fire them up before they're released too, and since it uses a lot of fuel to start up, they start up with hydrogen supplied by the ship's reserves and then when the operator hits the drop switch, the ship continues pumping in fuel, but the tank in the missile turns on, then the ship stops pumping fuel and releases it. That's our perfected way of not wasting precious hydrogen in the missile's fuel tank, and not killing the engine in the missile when it does switch over. It also allows us not to waste time with getting the missile up to speed.

My radar, and why it is mathematically impossible to fool (http://www.freewebs.com/bluebomber2/aerospacetech.htm), obviously its being modified slightly for naval use.

wouldn't present much of a threat to such a giant ship?

That sounds like something you would say if you were cocky about using a Doujin-type ship. If you haven't noticed, Doujin is cautious and experienced, and wouldn't underestimate anything, especially considering in-character if anyone saw a fleet as big as the one you'd be using, they would think something is up. Doujin hasn't been overconfident about much of anything in this arguement, its the anti-Doujin weapon people that overestimate their designs.

And now I can safely say that your hydroskimmers can't use that engine, because it is air breathing. Dragging an air breathing engine through 1.4 miles of water isn't a good idea, and considering that can happen in 1 second at mach 7, your hydroskimmers would be hideously unreliable. I'd recommend switching to a non-air breathing engine... And that still doesn't solve the problem of hitting water at mach 7(its like hitting a sea of bullets).

Ok, first, I have major problems with that radar system... it wouldn't work. Too much noise. But that discussion doesn't belong here.

You use HYDROGEN to fuel your missiles and SHIPS? are you INSAINE? read this.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=6658696#post6658696

Chardonay: It has self cancelling effects to deal with the noise, its really loud, but not impossibly so, especially for a ship sized radar.

you would need to know the inident angle on the ground and on the ionosphere. if the ground were perfectly flat, it would work. but there are trees, ground clutter, that would scatter the radar beyond usefullness. And with the ionosphere, you would need to know precicely what the atmospheric effects were at that moment. You would also need to know the angle that the radar hit the target at, and the return angles... it's not possible.

We know the ground level and angle from GPS preprogramming, the ionosphere conditions from various friendly sources and calibration pings, the angle it hits the target and the return angles are based on the frequency and power that was sent out to that direction compared to its return, etc. etc. Need I remind you that I'm post/supermodern and I have the supercomputers and antennas needed for it...

But in this case a watered down(bad pun) version works perfectly fine on naval vessels, especially because the ocean is about as flat as you could hope for and you have multiple sources checking eachothers notes.

Ok, first, I have major problems with that radar system... it wouldn't work. Too much noise. But that discussion doesn't belong here.

You use HYDROGEN to fuel your missiles and SHIPS? are you INSAINE? read this.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=6658696#post6658696
Sorry I may have given the wrong impression. My ships new propulsion system uses a nuclear reactor that creates energy to power magnetic tubes that move the water. ONLY the missiles are powered by hydrogen. The ships that have the launchers just carry reserves in order to have the ability to fire off the seaskippers efficiently.

Sileetris: The engine and missile are ABOVE water. The wing is UNDER water. I am not so stupid as to set an engine that uses fire underwater. The problem with the missile hitting the water, is that since it does use a wing, it slows the descent quite a lot. Not to mention that the water flows over and under the wing.

We know the ground level and angle from GPS preprogramming, the ionosphere conditions from various friendly sources and calibration pings, the angle it hits the target and the return angles are based on the frequency and power that was sent out to that direction compared to its return, etc. etc. Need I remind you that I'm post/supermodern and I have the supercomputers and antennas needed for it...

But in this case a watered down(bad pun) version works perfectly fine on naval vessels, especially because the ocean is about as flat as you could hope for and you have multiple sources checking eachothers notes.
...Wouldn't it be quite useless if the water was wavy? Like... I don't think it would work in a storm too well. The radar would be flying into random insanity.

Also, Sileetris, the Horizon is only a few kilometers, not 700. Your radar would be completely useless against such long-range tactics.