NationStates Jolt Archive

I just want to know if my military seems about right for my size.

Army
15,200
Infantry: 10,000
M1A1 Abram: 100 (400 men)
M1A2 Abram: 175 (700 men)
M2A2 Bradley IFV: 145 (435 men)
M3A3 Bradley CFV: 100 (500 men)
M109A6 Paladin Self Propelled Howitzer & M992A2 FAASV: 50 (450 men)
M270 MLRS Self Propelled Loader/Launcher: 35 (105 men)
AH-64 Apache: 75 (150 men)
AH-1 Cobra: 50 (100 men)
CH-47 Chinook: 50 (100 men)
CH-54 Sky Crane: 30 (90 men)
UH-60 Black Hawk: 75 (300 men)
RAH-Comanche: 45 (90 men)
Assorted HMMWV: 300 (600-800 men)
Assorted Heavy Tactical Vehicles: 200 (400-1200 men)
Assorted Medium Tactical Vehicles: 200 (600 men)

Air Force
F-16C Fighting Falcon=125 (125 men)
F/A-18C Hornet=100 (200 men)
F/A-15 Eagle=165 (165 men)
F-22 Raptor=10 (100 men)
F-117 Nighthawk=65 (65 men)
AV-8B Harrier II=90 (90 men)
A-10 Thunderbolt=110 (110 men)
AC-130 Spectre=50 (700 men)
B-52 Strato Fortress=125 (625 men)
B-1B Lancer=110 (440 men)
B-2 Spirit=30 (60 men)
E-767 Airborne Warning and Control System= 40 (800 men)
C-5B Galaxy= 100 (600 men)
C-17 Globemaster III= 115 (345 men)
C-141B Starlifter= 125 (750 men)
KC-10A Extender= 75 (300 men)
KC-130F= 50 (300 men)
KC-135 Stratotanker= 65 (325 men)
E-4B National Airborne Operations Center= 4 (456 men)
E-8 Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System= 7 (273 men)
EC-130J Commando Solo II= 10 (180 men)
EC-130H Compass Call= 15 (195 men)
EA-6B Prowler= 75 (300 men)

Navy
CVN-65 Enterprise Class Aircraft Carrier= 1 (5830 men 85 aircraft)
F-14 Tomcat= 40
F/A-18E Super Hornet=40
5 Helicopters
CG-47 Ticonderoga Class= 3 (1092 men)
DD-963 Spruance Class= 3 (1146 men)
DDG-51 Arleigh Burke Class= 3 (963 men)
FFG-7 Oliver Hazard Perry Class=3 (900 men)

This link is the NS standard.

http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=canan

Here's my nation's stats:
http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=octovonia

Well for my nation, I require at least one Kirov-class heavy missile battlecruiser, 8-12 destroyers and frigates [Sovremenny and Saschen classes] and 10 coastal defense ships [Visby class]. Now that seems like too much for my country [and probably is], but that's how I'd like it.

Airforce we have 48 Su-37 Terminators, 60 Su-30K, 32 Su-29 Frogfoots, 10 A-400s and 40 Ka-60 Kasatkas.

Army we have Chinese Type 98 tanks, BTR-80s and BMP-3Ms. Air support is provided by the air force and by army Mi-28 Havocs.

http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=the_island_of_rose

I have no funds in Law and Order, yet I have low crime O.O

Wow...

OOC: You thought your stats were scary....

http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=automagfreek

OOC: How do your people get around O.O

well thats all nice, but do my numbers seem to be alright?

Your navy is tiny and your infantry are pathetic. You should have way more infantry. You have 15,200/111,000,000=.0001%. Now my military is roughly the same percent. 1 million/552 million, but I have one million men, you have 15,200. You should jump your military to at least two percent, because the smaller a nation, the more percentage they need to adequately defend themselves. Also, my navy is this:
30 CVX Class Carriers
150 CG-21 Class Cruisers
50 DD(X) Electronic Rail Gun Destroyers
250 DD-21 Class Destroyers
50 SSGN-726 Trident Ohio Class Submarines
100 SSN-774 Virginia NSSN Attack Submarines

Plus the planes, which you are fine on. I am also working on a JMOB, Joint Mobile Offshore Base, but that is far from completed. All of those numbers are top of the line. I do not bother with M1A1s or F/A 18s or Ticonderoga class carriers. I go for the good stuff. So there it is. Up your navy and definitely increase your men.

Your navy is tiny and your infantry are pathetic. You should have way more infantry. You have 15,200/111,000,000=.0001%. Now my military is roughly the same percent. 1 million/552 million, but I have one million men, you have 15,200. You should jump your military to at least two percent, because the smaller a nation, the more percentage they need to adequately defend themselves. Also, my navy is this:
30 CVX Class Carriers
150 CG-21 Class Cruisers
50 DD(X) Electronic Rail Gun Destroyers
250 DD-21 Class Destroyers
50 SSGN-726 Trident Ohio Class Submarines
100 SSN-774 Virginia NSSN Attack Submarines

Plus the planes, which you are fine on. I am also working on a JMOB, Joint Mobile Offshore Base, but that is far from completed. All of those numbers are top of the line. I do not bother with M1A1s or F/A 18s or Ticonderoga class carriers. I go for the good stuff. So there it is. Up your navy and definitely increase your men.


You are godmodding. I have 30 carriers and I am from last August.

Who the hell can afford 30 aircraft carriers, godmodder?

You all are right. I had fifteen, but I felt like adding more, but doubling was wrong. So back to fifteen. Is that okay with everyone?

I'm wondering where you people get that neato webpage that describes your economy?

I'm wondering where you people get that neato webpage that describes your economy?

Right here

http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=triancia

If you're in one of the Pacifics, it'll give you a "The region contains too many nations" errror message . . .

http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=weyr

You all are right. I had fifteen, but I felt like adding more, but doubling was wrong. So back to fifteen. Is that okay with everyone?

Heck, I only have 4!

Granted, I have a low population, underfunded Navy, Defense-focused Military, and they are CVN-77s (so they are a little better than any other 4 carriers), but...

Heck, I only have 4!

Granted, I have a low population, underfunded Navy, Defense-focused Military, and they are CVN-77s (so they are a little better than any other 4 carriers), but...

Well no one is complaining about my 15, so I am going to keep it.

hmm, I tried that economy page...and it tells me my region doesn't exist..but then shows the region page...in a .txt kind of format.

hmm, I tried that economy page...and it tells me my region doesn't exist..but then shows the region page...in a .txt kind of format.
Here (http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php?nation=RightWing_Conspirators&defense=10&defenseprovided=10&militarybudget=10) works (I used 10% as an example budget), and I use it more than Thirdgeek. Thirdgeek allocates a crippling amount of my budget to Military and if I did that I'd implode. Twice. Even with 10% as a defense budget, I can only use 3-5% of it for purchasing and even that strains it. (my nation's economy is still going up, though, because Munivez, the Emperor, is a total corporate sellout.)

Other than that, I like Thirdgeek's exchange rates, surplusses, exports, and such, so I guess you're just missing out. Maybe it's crashing because your region is too big.

4 CARRIERS!?!?!?! THATS ALL?!?!?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

i'm sorry.... i'm sorry....... hahahahahahahahahaha

you people have smaller armed forces than necessary..... FAR smaller than necessary....

4 CARRIERS!?!?!?! THATS ALL?!?!?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

i'm sorry.... i'm sorry....... hahahahahahahahahaha

you people have smaller armed forces than necessary..... FAR smaller than necessary....

Dude, the US only has what? 5-6 active carriers. If you give the US a ranking of Very Strong/Powerhouse econ and 250mil pop . . .

Unless you're running a nation that spends most of its budget on defense . . .

Dude, the US only has what? 5-6 active carriers. If you give the US a ranking of Very Strong/Powerhouse econ and 250mil pop . . .

Unless you're running a nation that spends most of its budget on defense . . .

If a nation ever spends more than 20% budget, (Soviet Union did 17% and look how their economy did after the initial bang), it'd likely cause you to implode. Most of a Nation's budget will be taken up keeping the system you already have propped up- the U.S. spends, what, about 0.3%?

But luckily NationStates doesn't model that part an we can get away with 10-15%. ;)

Who the hell can afford 30 aircraft carriers, godmodder?
weeeeeeeel.....

argh the boy who cried "godmodder"

this is a sci fi world, not the real one, most countries here are bigger and richer than the US, by a large amount, and kost are more warlike too. THey could easily manage HUGE armed forces...


If you spent about 8% of your GDP on defense.. which IS sustainable.

IGNORE taxes at the momenbt income tax isnt the only tax around... With a 22% income tax (average rate) the UK government is 40% of the economy. Max barry knew this when he worded the country descriptions in NS, but people take it far to litterally.

ANd you (i did some RL researc) ran a a few campaigns every year (liek the US) then you end up spending about of the value of any equipment running maintaining it. And assuming a replacement every 10 years... a further 10%.

So that menas that if you saved up for a while or gradually built up, you could manintain an armed forces equal to five times you military budget (or just below)

so say 40% of your GDP.

Assuming no extras like defences.

Also assuming that thirdgeek is wrong with the GDP as frankly i dont belive that GDP per head $34000 is "all consuming" (going from another country i run) as no RL country is "all consuming" and some pass $40000 GDP per head

a nation like, say "roach busters" with a "thriving" economy and 390mil people... spent 5% on defense.... it would have a defense budget of $780 billion!!

So thats.... about say 80 supercarriers (assuming costs of $10bn each). Not normal ones.. super carriers... probably loaded too!

Now with a larger economy but sightly smaller population... and higher defense budget. So i do without godmodding (though also without having a nation like anything on the RL world) have a much larger fleet (only 8 super carriers though)


Oh and thirdgeek has some really nice stats. I like those as i like to see balance of trade and things... but for defense spending calculations, GDP calculators are far from perfect as they dont reflect all the differnt taxes or relasitic GDPs very often...

Id love to know how its calculated....

but nothing beats a proper economist.. ;)

Pipian is still the NS Standard, Grenval, although NS Economy is a better calculator.

Not only that, but how much of the Defense budget really goes to the soldiers, paying for repairs, food for soldiers, etc.? Only a portion (I feel I'm not stretching too much when I say 1/2, because this is a partially unreal world) could ever be used.

The US spends 399.1 Billion a year on defense- how many times are they out there buying (or rather making) supercarriers in the double digits?

weeeeeeeel.....

argh the boy who cried "godmodder"

this is a sci fi world, not the real one, most countries here are bigger and richer than the US, by a large amount, and kost are more warlike too. THey could easily manage HUGE armed forces...


If you spent about 8% of your GDP on defense.. which IS sustainable.

IGNORE taxes at the momenbt income tax isnt the only tax around... With a 22% income tax (average rate) the UK government is 40% of the economy. Max barry knew this when he worded the country descriptions in NS, but people take it far to litterally.

ANd you (i did some RL researc) ran a a few campaigns every year (liek the US) then you end up spending about of the value of any equipment running maintaining it. And assuming a replacement every 10 years... a further 10%.

So that menas that if you saved up for a while or gradually built up, you could manintain an armed forces equal to five times you military budget (or just below)

so say 40% of your GDP.

Assuming no extras like defences.

Also assuming that thirdgeek is wrong with the GDP as frankly i dont belive that GDP per head $34000 is "all consuming" (going from another country i run) as no RL country is "all consuming" and some pass $40000 GDP per head

a nation like, say "roach busters" with a "thriving" economy and 390mil people... spent 5% on defense.... it would have a defense budget of $780 billion!!

So thats.... about say 80 supercarriers (assuming costs of $10bn each). Not normal ones.. super carriers... probably loaded too!

Now with a larger economy but sightly smaller population... and higher defense budget. So i do without godmodding (though also without having a nation like anything on the RL world) have a much larger fleet (only 8 super carriers though)


Oh and thirdgeek has some really nice stats. I like those as i like to see balance of trade and things... but for defense spending calculations, GDP calculators are far from perfect as they dont reflect all the differnt taxes or relasitic GDPs very often...

Id love to know how its calculated....

but nothing beats a proper economist.. ;)

You could maintain (pay for the upkeep cost / fuel costs) of the equipment, but you couldn't afford to use it. www.geocities.com/doujincorp/centaurmk2.html

^^ This is the average Cruiser/Destroyer in the Doujin Navy. Now, it only costs about 40 to 80 million per year in upkeep, but for a full weapons loadout it costs 400 million; not to mention 10,000,000 per year in personnel cost.

Here is a link to the Formula (http://terranordalis.thirdgeek.com/viewtopic.php?t=58) used for the NS Economy Calculator.

We in Sevaris have a budget on average of $1.2 Trillion. Of that, we spend $230 Billion on National Defense/Security. We are currently at war, so our armed forces are larger, but during peacetime, our army is about 850,000 men.

The US spend 3.9% which comes to $399 billion, which is 60% more than its nearest competitor, China.

The US spend 3.9% which comes to $399 billion, which is 60% more than its nearest competitor, China.

But, in all fairness, if the real world was anything like NationStates, the US would probably spend a lot more on defense. NS is much more dangerous for many nations.

But, in all fairness, if the real world was anything like NationStates, the US would probably spend a lot more on defense. NS is much more dangerous for many nations.

Yes, the US would probably be spending closer to 50%, but then again, if you count deficit spending, the US probably spends closer to 8% on Defense.

I just want to know if my military seems about right for my size.

Army
15,200
Infantry: 10,000
M1A1 Abram: 100 (400 men)
M1A2 Abram: 175 (700 men)
M2A2 Bradley IFV: 145 (435 men)
M3A3 Bradley CFV: 100 (500 men)
M109A6 Paladin Self Propelled Howitzer & M992A2 FAASV: 50 (450 men)
M270 MLRS Self Propelled Loader/Launcher: 35 (105 men)
AH-64 Apache: 75 (150 men)
AH-1 Cobra: 50 (100 men)
CH-47 Chinook: 50 (100 men)
CH-54 Sky Crane: 30 (90 men)
UH-60 Black Hawk: 75 (300 men)
RAH-Comanche: 45 (90 men)
Assorted HMMWV: 300 (600-800 men)
Assorted Heavy Tactical Vehicles: 200 (400-1200 men)
Assorted Medium Tactical Vehicles: 200 (600 men)

Air Force
F-16C Fighting Falcon=125 (125 men)
F/A-18C Hornet=100 (200 men)
F/A-15 Eagle=165 (165 men)
F-22 Raptor=10 (100 men)
F-117 Nighthawk=65 (65 men)
AV-8B Harrier II=90 (90 men)
A-10 Thunderbolt=110 (110 men)
AC-130 Spectre=50 (700 men)
B-52 Strato Fortress=125 (625 men)
B-1B Lancer=110 (440 men)
B-2 Spirit=30 (60 men)
E-767 Airborne Warning and Control System= 40 (800 men)
C-5B Galaxy= 100 (600 men)
C-17 Globemaster III= 115 (345 men)
C-141B Starlifter= 125 (750 men)
KC-10A Extender= 75 (300 men)
KC-130F= 50 (300 men)
KC-135 Stratotanker= 65 (325 men)
E-4B National Airborne Operations Center= 4 (456 men)
E-8 Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System= 7 (273 men)
EC-130J Commando Solo II= 10 (180 men)
EC-130H Compass Call= 15 (195 men)
EA-6B Prowler= 75 (300 men)

Navy
CVN-65 Enterprise Class Aircraft Carrier= 1 (5830 men 85 aircraft)
F-14 Tomcat= 40
F/A-18E Super Hornet=40
5 Helicopters
CG-47 Ticonderoga Class= 3 (1092 men)
DD-963 Spruance Class= 3 (1146 men)
DDG-51 Arleigh Burke Class= 3 (963 men)
FFG-7 Oliver Hazard Perry Class=3 (900 men)

I have yet to find a calculator that works well for all nations, and yet to find a calculator that is not abused by some of its users, nor one that takes into account the fullest effects of everything. Even most of the GDP calculators do not have a realistic distribution of GDP per capita per category, nor do most take into account the simple fact that it is a range of values rather than a specific value. Your best indicator is per capita military spending (determined by UN ranking) x population, and then figure out how efficient your military spending is relative to RL standards to work out how much things really cost you.

That said, you have a total wing of combat troops of 15200 ground, 11200 pilots/copilots/etc, and 9931 sailors. This may not seem like a great deal to some people, but you shouldn't forget support personnel... which outnumber ground combat troops by roughly 2:1 and actual flight personnel by more like 10:1. That leaves a manpower demand of ~45600 for the army, 112,000 for the air force (+ the 829 you have listed for operations). How many for the Navy? Well, that depends on what sort of things your navy does. The US Navy has roughly 371,000 active military personnel and about half that many civilian personnel working for it. Your navy is substantially smaller... but you probably still have at least as many support personnel as actual crewmen actively sitting ship, for at least 20,000 active duty.

All told, that means a total manpower demand of about 180,000 for your armed services. Can you meet that manpower demand without severely impacting your economy? Yes. You can even supply enough manpower to support your military well and do equipment testing on the side.
How much will that cost? Well, salaries, room and board, and benefits in a Powerhouse economy aren't cheap. Equipment isn't cheap either, and you do have a corruption problem; at the same time, military spending isn't listed as a top 3 government priority. Average taxes are relatively low.

If I had your per-capita military spending rank, I could give you a very good guess for spending. As is, I'd say your listed military there seems quite reasonable to me.

For reference, the FY2003 military spending of the US (wartime spending, and don't neglect that at all) was $396.1B, with government revenues totalling to about $1782B - about 22% of the federal governmental budget. Factor in state and local governments and that percentage shrinks; factor in state, local, and social security taxes, and you realize that the total average real income tax rate of the US is actually pretty high. I've heard 50%, years ago, but I should check for more recent figures.

Generally speaking, the US is highly militarized in terms of spending priorities, relative to the world.

Lots of that money was rebuilding Afghanistan and Iraq, though, right? If I remember correctly, we dumped 89 billion into Iraq alone, but I don't know if that goes under defense spending. Knowing the government, they probably listed it under foreign aid to look better.

Lots of that money was rebuilding Afghanistan and Iraq, though, right? If I remember correctly, we dumped 89 billion into Iraq alone, but I don't know if that goes under defense spending. Knowing the government, they probably listed it under foreign aid to look better.

It wouldn't be defense spending - it would be foreign aid :p

Lots of that money was rebuilding Afghanistan and Iraq, though, right? If I remember correctly, we dumped 89 billion into Iraq alone, but I don't know if that goes under defense spending. Knowing the government, they probably listed it under foreign aid to look better.

Rebuilding probably went into emergency discretionary spending - some other stuff probably wasn't in the official armed forces budget, but would generally be considered "military" in nature. I feel pretty safe concluding that, given that the FY2000 military budget was about $300B - still extremely high by world standards, but roughly 15% of total government spending - about 2/3 as high a priority.

That said, it is worth mentioning that most nations vary military spending according to their current political situation. Peacetime acquisition and expansion is usually placed at a much lower priority than wartime expansion efforts are, and when you start engaging in combat, maintainence and replacement costs rocket upwards. For personnel, feeding, moving, and housing them tends to gspending levels are usually much lower than actual wartime expenditureet more expensive, and salary costs/desertation/recruitment/training factors require increases in funding as well to just keep even with manpower demands.