NationStates Jolt Archive

Attican Empire,
After reading your 'informed replies' and I say that using the widest definition of the phrase. I have come to the conclusion you are an Anti-Greek, you mention the Greeks are bad soldiers, even if this was the case (as it is not) this wouldn't dissuade me from loving my country of Cyprus any more than I do now, because I love it for its Culture and its History, 2 things that America dont have, and one of those (Culture) that it will never have.

"and Greek women were often raped"

Like the 363 instances of rape reported by Iraqi women against your 'heroic soldiers'? And let us not forget this could be a smaller amount than there actually is as many would not want to come forward to an American Administration to report thier crimes which were commited by an American Citizen .

"you stated that since a building in a nation is attacked, that nation is at fault"

Nope, this was never stated in any of my replies to you. I used the events of 9/11 as the prime example of the level of response people across the Arab world are willing to take to hurt America, it is a sign that America's foreign policy has a detrimental effect on the world. The technicalitys of such an event occuring an the point you brought up If a Nation's building is attacked, that nation is to blame was never put forward by me, it is completely irrelevant and to an extent doesnt make sense as the event is self explanatory and blame does not enter the equation.

"How exactly are you an expert on Americans? If you are Greek?"

I fail to see how you can be an expert as you so aptly put it on a nation's populace.
You can be an expert on their general social beliefs through the ages (relevant to History) but you cant be an expert at them. Yet again you are failing to make any sense. Try thinking through what you are saying before you type, it usually helps to have some degree of preperation go into your what you are posting.
So if it is modern social beliefs of the populace you are referring to, then I would fail to see how being a citizen of America makes you more of an expert than I.
Surely this would make you more bias, like most Americans?

"Also, lets not forget that the ONLY city in Greece during the ancient era to experience Democracy was Athens"

Because of the independance of the City States, an idea, might I add, that you mirrored when giving freedom to pass laws on a local level to different states in America.

"Sprechen sie Deutsch?"

Ja, mein Deutsch ist ziemlich gut fur meines Alters (sechszehn jahre alt) aber ich denke dass deine Deutsch ist von an Translator.

"The Germans had many military victories during the mid-to-late 1800s, even one against France in 1870"

Again, I fail to see how specific German military victories during the 19th century relate to the point I made about a countries volume of military victories being insignificant in an argument of this sort. Perhaps you are trying to impress me through pointless historical fact?

"And they would have victored in both World Wars if it were not for the United States"

Wrong again I'm afraid. As I said, speak to any Historian of this modern age and they will tell you that the War "Could not have been won without Russia."

"Some democracy in Greece, I assume"

Yet again you make a bitter comment that insinuates you have racist beliefs towards people who have Greek backgrounds. Its about reading between the lines with people like you.

"Of course, being a Greek Orthodox (same thing as Russian Orthodox, mind you)"

And your point being? Oh wait I can almost guess it, some McCarthyite link to Communism from the Respective Orthodox Churches of Greece and Russia. It has been proven time and again, that whether you are Democrat or Republican, your still the equivalent of the National Front here in Europe. Thats how far right you have gone, and all in the name of economic growth.

"Makes you think why the Turks hate you so"

Yet another comment that insinuates you also, (like the barbarians) bear some hatred for Greeks. I wont bother you by going into the details of a hatred that runs back a millenia but lets just say that you and your Government has no room to talk about this matter, you have constantly stirred things up by supporting a Turkish regime that commited some of the most disgusting attrocities when they invaded under the false pretense of "Protecting Turkish Cypriots" in 1974.
It deeply offends me when people who are completely ignorant of the Cyprus problem try and make light of it. Mostly, usually, pretty much all the time these 'people' are Americans.

"He simply stated that we cannot be as stupid or as dumb as you think if we practically control the world economy"

Exactly my point, I also find it ironic (Theres that word again!) that you were going on about majorities and minorities in terms of politics just a while back on your post and telling me not to judge all Americans as the same. Now ( Ironically enough) you are saying that every American is reponsible for your countries high economic growth and the position it is in today.
Anyway that is not the point at hand and everyone with a basic understanding of economics knows that America's boom's mainly came about as a result of lucky comparitive advantages during the 20's. This was propelled forward by full scale laissez faire, a style of Government which most countries refuse to either consider because of its unfairness on the disadvantaged.

"Greece was a puppet state of the Soviet Union during the Cold War, so this makes you just as responsible as the Soviet Union was."

Then, by your logic, you have the blood of 1 million Vietnamese on your hands, many who died through the horrible pain of napalm burning, you are equally responsible along with Brzezinski for the Afghanistan Trap and the subsequent result that 1 million Afghans died and 4 million were made homeless, you are responsible for the hurrendous crimes of the American supported, armed and trained Contras in Nicaragua commited against the civilian populace there and lastly and most poignantly (considering the current climate) you are reponsible for the deaths of 10,000 Iraqi citizens.

"As a researcher of both World Wars"

Do you have a degree in any type of History - Answer the question yes or no. Or are you simply an Amateur who believes he knows alot because he Watches alot of TV .

"The main reason the Russians captured more was because Hitler himself did not supply his troops with proper gear for cold weather."

Again, not true, the main reason he captured more is because 69% of German Infantry was concentrated on the Eastern front.

"Mr. Greek History Major."

Again, yet another sign of your antipathy towards Greeks. It is becoming evident you are a racist.

"Stalin was losing FAR too many men"

*Yawns* Read some of the quotes from Von Manstein, Rommel and even Von Kluge about the 1943 counter attack. They knew they had lost "Germany has little if not no hope now, all we can do is pray that something is worked out before they reach Berlin", from the horses mouth, they had lost, they knew it, and they knew now it was only a matter of time.

"it is also true that the Soviets would not have been victorious if it were not for the Normandy landings"

This is not the case, you cannot simply base your entire argument around visual evidence from Saving Private Ryan, Attican. It really discredits your entire argument, along with the fact the vast, vast majority of Historians worldwide disagree with you.
You have failed to put up any facts to back your arguments regarding the American winning World War 2, so I will simply treat them with extreme sceptiscm from now on (as I did before).

"but do you really beleive they would have collapsed if the German Empire, which at the time would have been the foremost power in the world, was supporting them both economically and militarally"

You neglect to mention the increased tensions and subsequent uprising of Arabs in the Ottoman regions, though I agree with you on the point that if Germany would have won the War, The Ottoman Empire's breakup would have at least been severely slowed down.

"Neither Kahta nor I support Bush, and we both plan on voting Kerry"

It makes no difference to me, your entire political compass is so far to the right whether somebody votes democrat or republican is of little consequence. Both parties operate with the same foreign policy, neither has learned from the mistakes this style of aggressive, self-interest protection at any costs foreign policy has caused in the past.
Take Israel for example, both parties are the only Political Parties to actively condone actions such as State Sponsored Assasinations and the illegal policy of settlement building, this puts them at odds with the UN, because any resolution that criticises Israel is immediately vetoed by the US. Despite the fact it may have majority support of 90% or over the US continue to do this and this inflames Euro-American Relations as well as Arab-American Relations.

"You had very odd spelling, even considering the Greek in you"

Another example of repressed racism.

"You HAD philosophers. You do not any longer"

History always lives on, in what it provides and teaches, the fact Plato and Aristotle's work still exists and is extremely relevant to this day really tells you something, lets see if any American Philosophers ever have the hope of standing that kind of time. Well, no, they dont, because there aren't/weren't any.

"Can you prove I am racist?"

Obiously not, I dont have access to much evidence apart from what I have considered subtly racist expressing repressed racist emotion in the text you have just written and the prievous ones as well.
As most people well know, the last resort of a criminal caught with massive amounts of circumstancial evidence is that he will ask the Prosecutor to "Prove it to me" even though the verdict is so easy to come to. This is very relevant when considering Attican's prievous text.

"I do know you are a National-Socialist Communist Greek, though. The epiphany of stereotypes."

So you do admit you agree with stereotypes based on ethnicity?

"You have proven yourself to be a racist, xionist, xenophobic, nazi, communist and ignorant asshole."

Racist? Nope thats you, I've explained that enough to you.
Xionist... Oh you mean Zionist? Oh no, definately not, Israel has the right to exist, but only within the borders laid down for a two state solution by the UN.
Xenophobic? Well, seeing as I'm one of the most pro-immigration people I can think of this argument doesnt add up..... Is this really what you have been reduced to?
Nazi? *Laughs* I think you have just posted every type of ideology that comes into your head, no matter how contradictory it may sound.
Communist? Although I am not a Communist, I fail to see what is wrong with being a Communist, this an entirely alien thing to me. As are the comments of American ignorami "DUDE YOU ARE A COMMIE!!!!!! I FOUGHT IN 'NAM AND AM WELL PROUD TO FIGHT THE COMMIES!!!!"
you represent just that Attican.

You are American
You are Ignorant
You are a racist
You are a McCarthyite
And above all else?
Your arguments are 90% wrong. :lol:

Zionism

As long as they stay with in their own borders prescribed to them by the United Nations? I think you should learn your history my friend, or you'll be deemed one of those idiots who believe Israel is the imperialist in the region.

In 1948 most of the Arab Middle East attacked Israel after Israel claimed her independence. Israel successfully fought it back, with much luck. In 1956 Israel launched an invasion of the Sinai, in which they retired from the investment when France and the U.K. invaded - however, the invasion had been formulated only because Nasser had closed the Suez Canal to Israeli shipping, clear belligerence. In 1967 Egypt, Jordan and Syria had been planning a full scale invasion of Israeal, however on June 5, Israel launched a pre-emptive air strike destroying much of all three power's airforces on the ground - allowing for a rapid occupation of the West Bank, Sinai, Gaza and Golan Heights. Most of the Palestinians then immigrated to Jordan where they were persecuted and executed by Royal authority (and then they went back to Israel and caused problems ever since). In 1973 Egypt, Jordan and Syria launched another attack on Israel's holy day, and Israel was at first caught off guard, but was able to defeat the attack. There after Egypt and Israel had become best of friends, as well as Jordan - while Syria remain isolated from the Middle East.

I see Israel's claim to all of Canaan as valid. If you say otherwise then re-think Greece's claim to Crete and to much of northeast Greece.

After reading this post I can happily say that the Hellenic Empire is very true in its arguments, this is the type of stuff we in Australia see and learn about all the time with such a vast multicultural back ground, I still don’t understand why Australia supports the US with its hateful policies and policies that could really be tested by the UN. I come from a city that at one point was the largest Greek city after Athens, but now I think it is the third largest Greek city in the world, people from a society other than the American can somewhat grasp aspects of other nations and be able to comprehend them and look at them intellectually much more so than an American could comprehend its own nation.

[quote="The Macabees"]Zionism
France and the U.K. invaded - however, the invasion had been formulated only because Nasser had closed the Suez Canal to Israeli shipping, clear belligerence. quote]


You will find that Britain and France invaded due to the fact that President Nasser had nationalized the canal, taking control over what was a British and French investment.

And why is it that when the Serbian population that had once controlled Albania and still sees this area as its home land not allowed to reclaim its former territory, but the reason for the UN intervention was only due to the fact that the social dynamics in the region had changed, meaning they no longer had a right to own the region and since the Albanians now were the most dominant in the region they had the right to live there without fear. So why does this not extend to the conflict in the Middle East? Well I don’t want to have to say why.

OOC: II isn't the place for this stuff, folks. Either play off your obvious dislike for each other IC (not advised), or agree to just ignore each other (what I suggest). This is supposed to be fun, remember? Game? Fun?

Meh. I don't really care what you do, just please, do it in the right forum.

Zionism

As long as they stay with in their own borders prescribed to them by the United Nations? I think you should learn your history my friend, or you'll be deemed one of those idiots who believe Israel is the imperialist in the region.


Modern times call for Modern Imperialism. Israel's 'modern imperialism' is based around ideas such as settlements and armed incursions, this helps to create an environment of fear and obedience. The Settlements, despite also being tactically useful destroy any hope of a Palestinian state, imagine France building settlements near the coast of Plymouth.
The settlers themselves are the worst of the worst, religious zealots just as bad as HAMAS or HIZBOLLAH (which would have never came about if it wasnt for Israel's murdering of 1000's of Lebanese when shelling Beirut).
The Modern Israeli argument is 'security' yet on a long term scale, they have just practically destroyed any hope of security for future generations. Seperation and isolation create fear and loathing and misunderstanding. These are Sharon's aims and he hopes to achieve them through his illegal policies.
Let us not also forget the crimes that Sharon's Christian Militia commited in Palestine, murdering 100's of Palestinians and raping over a thousand women. Not to mention the crimes of Unit 101 and the propoganda that is broadcast day in day out by the Israeli media. Media control over the Israelis has also helped to instill fear and loathing, leading to a situation where the stalemate was almost inevitable.
And Also Macabees, is Noam Chomsky to be considered ignorant? The same man who has 50 Honorary Degrees and over 200 awards for political literature? The man who the New York Time's described as "The most important intellectual alive." Is he an 'idiot?

Also Nuovo Campania thank you for your kind words

First off, this isn't a political discussion. This is an Anti-American vs someone who doesn't care.

Like the 363 instances of rape reported by Iraqi women against your 'heroic soldiers'? And let us not forget this could be a smaller amount than there actually is as many would not want to come forward to an American Administration to report thier crimes which were commited by an American Citizen .
Proof? None.

I fail to see how you can be an expert as you so aptly put it at a nation's populace.
You can be an expert on their general social beliefs through the ages (relevant to History) but you cant be an expert [/b] at them. Yet again you are failing to make any sense. Try thinking through what you are saying before you type, it usually helps to have some degree of preperation go into your what you are posting.
So if it is modern social beliefs of the populace you are referring to, then I would fail to see how being a citizen of America makes you more of an expert than I.
Surely this would make you more bias, like most Americans?
You shouldn't add words to what I say. "How exactly are you an expert on Americans?" is a fine sentence. If I had said AT AMERICANS, it would make no sense. But I didn't. Yes, just like you are biased that the Greek people are superior to everyone else.
Because of the independance of the City States, an idea, might I add, that you mirrored when giving freedom to pass laws on a local level to different states in America.
No, it was mirrored because none of the states wanted to give up their rights, so concessions were made in the constitution.
Ja, mein Deutsch ist ziemlich gut fur meines Alters (einundzwanzig jahre alt) aber ich denke dass deine Deutsch ist von an Translator.
Ich habe zwei Jahren aus Deutsch mitt eine Lehrerin erst Jahr und ein Lehrer zweite Jahre. Für nächstes Jahr ich habe Deutsch III.
Also, you need an umlaut in für.
I'll correct your German for you:

Ja, mein Deutsch ist ziemlich gut für meines Alters (einundzwanzig Jahre alt), aber Ich denke dass deinem Deutsch ist aus einer Konvertor.
Again, I fail to see how specific German military victories during the 19th century relate to the point I made about a countries volume of military victories being insignificant in an argument of this sort.
I fail to see how you bringing up German failures in WW1/2 mattered, either.
Wrong again I'm afraid. As I said, speak to any Historian of this modern age and they will tell you that the War "Could not have been won without Russia."
I didn't fucking say it could be won without the Soviets. I said it could not have been won without EITHER side. If the US had joined without the Soviets, the Allies would have lost. If the Soviets had not had US support, the Allies would have lost. Understand? LEARN TO FUCKING READ.
Yet again you make a bitter comment that insinuates you have racist beliefs towards people who have Greek backgrounds. Its about reading between the lines with people like you.
Same with you with your obvious racist beliefs towards Germans and Poles, of which descendancy I am. Plus the fact that all you do is read between the lines, or not read at all. Plus you have obvious nationalist beliefs against Americans. I could care less about Greece or Greeks. I dislike you in particular because you are an asshole, not because you are Greek.
And your point being? Oh wait I can almost guess it, some McCarthyite link to Communism from the Respective Orthodox Churches of Greece and Russia. It has been proven time and again, that whether you are Democrat or Republican, your still the equivalent of the National Front here in Europe. Thats how far right you have gone, and all in the name of economic growth.
There you go calling me a conservative again, without proof.
Yet another comment that insinuates you also, (like the barbarians) bear some hatred for Greeks. I wont bother you by going into the details of a hatred that runs back a millenia but lets just say that you and your Government has no room to talk about this matter, you have constantly stirred things up by supporting a Turkish regime that commited some of the most disgusting attrocities when they invaded under the false pretense of "Protecting Turkish Cypriots" in 1974.
It deeply offends me when people who are completely ignorant of the Cyprus problem try and make light of it. Mostly, usually, pretty much all the time these 'people' are Americans.
Your "Cyprus" problem is Greek and Greek alone. You caused it, you deal with it. It's not our problem.
Exactly my point, I also find it ironic (Theres that word again!) that you were going on about majorities and minorities in terms of politics just a while back on your post and telling me not to judge all Americans as the same. Now ( Ironically enough) you are saying that every American is reponsible for your countries high economic growth and the position it is in today.
Anyway that is not the point at hand and everyone with a basic understanding of economics knows that America's boom's mainly came about as a result of lucky comparitive advantages during the 20's. This was propelled forward by full scale laissez faire, a style of Government which most countries refuse to either consider because of its unfairness on the disadvantaged.
So Greeks are disadvantaged?
Then, by your logic, you have the blood of 1 million Vietnamese on your hands, many who died through the horrible pain of napalm burning, you are equally responsible along with Brzezinski for the Afghanistan Trap and the subsequent result that 1 million Afghans died and 4 million were made homeless, you are responsible for the hurrendous crimes the American supported, armed and trained Contras in Nicaragua commited against the civilian populace there and lastly and most poignantly (considering the current climate) you are reponsible for the deaths of 10,000 Iraqi citizens.
One little difference. You obviously supported or support the communist regime. I only supported the Vietnam war. I didnt support neither the invasion of Afghanistan nor Iraq. You supported everything the USSR told you to.
Do you have a degree in any type of History - Answer the question yes or no. Or are you simply an Amateur who believes he knows alot because he Watches alot of TV .
I have read over 30 accounts of the war by various generals, American, British, German, Italian, Soviet... including compilations.
Again, not true, the main reason he captured more is because 69% of German Infantry was concentrated on the Eastern front.
Offer at least SOME evidence to counter my point. As of now, my point still stands, because you haven't disproven it.
Again, yet another sign of your antipathy towards Greeks. It is becoming evident you are a racist.
Your the Greek Nationalist, not me.
*Yawns* Read some of the quotes from Von Manstein, Rommel and even Von Kluge about the 1943 counter attack. They knew they had lost "Germany has little if not no hope now, all we can do is pray that something is worked out before they reach Berlin", from the horses mouth, they had lost, they knew it, and they knew now it was only a matter of time.
I have, and you are misinterpreting them.
This is not the case, you cannot simply base your entire argument around visual evidence from Saving Private Ryan, Attican. It really discredits your entire argument, along with the fact the vast, vast majority of Historians worldwide disagree with you.
You have failed to put up any facts to back your arguments regarding the American winning World War 2, so I will simply treat them with extreme sceptiscm from now on (as I did before).
I haven't seen Saving Private Ryan. I am basing this on the sheer fact that the Normandy landings forced the Germans to move troops from the Eastern Front to the Western Front. Besides the fact that Stalin was demanding that they land.
Also, are you taking the claim of a vast majority? Where is this majority? You haven't shown any proof to back up that claim. As far as I can see, you are a Nationalist Communist who is trying to back up his communist party by stating that only they defeated Germany, and they alone.
It makes no difference to me, your entire political compass is so far to the right whether somebody votes democrat or republican is of little consequence. Both parties operate with the same foreign policy, neither has learned from the mistakes this style of aggressive, self-interest protection at any costs foreign policy has caused in the past.
Take Israel for example, both parties are the only Political Parties to actively condone actions such as State Sponsored Assasinations and the illegal policy of settlement building, this puts them at odds with the UN, because any resolution that criticises Israel is immediately vetoed by the US. Despite the fact it may have majority support of 90% or over the US continue to do this and this inflames Euro-American Relations as well as Arab-American Relations.
I would have voted Kucinich, since he is as left as you can get in American politics, but I lack that choice now, don't I.
Another example of repressed racism.
Or, I am making reference to the fact that English is not your first language, while trying to anger you at the same time.
Obiously not, I dont have access to much evidence apart from what I have considered subtly racist expressing repressed racist emotion in the text you have just written and the prievous ones as well.
As most people well know, the last resort of a criminal caught with massive amounts of circumstancial evidence is that he will ask the Prosecutor to "Prove it to me" even though the verdict is so easy to come to. This is very relevant when considering Attican's prievous text.
It's called, "You misinterpret and misread what I say."
So you do admit you agree with stereotypes based on ethnicity?
I never said that. I simply said you are making yourself fit into a stereotype. Besides the fact that you are stereotyping Americans, Germans, and Poles.

I think you have just posted every type of ideology that comes into your head, no matter how contradictory it may sound.
You have stated before that you are a National Socialist.

Communist? Although I am not a Communist, I fail to see what is wrong with being a Communist, this an entirely alien thing to me. As are the comments of American ignorami "DUDE YOU ARE A COMMIE!!!!!! I FOUGHT IN 'NAM AND AM WELL PROUD TO FIGHT THE COMMIES!!!!"
You also stated that you are a communist.
You are American
Good job! You can read!
You are Ignorant
Not as ignorant as you.
You are a racist
As you said, you cannot make that distinction without proof.
You are a McCarthyite
I have nothing against Socialism. It's ideals are fine. Of course, it's counterpart, Communism, which is one way to work with Socialism, is a horribly done system in which people are abused for the sake of "Equality".
Your arguments are 90% wrong.
Only when you misread them.

...Hellenic, you are an IDIOT.

Have you ever seen what Communism is in the real world? Have you ever seen what the inevitable results of Communism are?

My parents did.

They saw their neighbor, a shop-keeper, be brutally murdered in his house by the secret police of China. They heard the cheers of the stadium-goers when a friend of theirs was shot dead in a public execution on charges that he was trying to evade taxes.

Have you seen what Stalin's gulags were like? Have you seen the killing fields of Cambodia when the North Vietnamese invaded?

The list of atrocities goes on and on. Is there any wonder why people still loathe communists to this day?

After reading this post I can happily say that the Hellenic Empire is very true in its arguments, this is the type of stuff we in Australia see and learn about all the time with such a vast multicultural back ground, I still don’t understand why Australia supports the US with its hateful policies and policies that could really be tested by the UN. I come from a city that at one point was the largest Greek city after Athens, but now I think it is the third largest Greek city in the world, people from a society other than the American can somewhat grasp aspects of other nations and be able to comprehend them and look at them intellectually much more so than an American could comprehend its own nation.

I highly doubt we need TWO anti-Americans speaking at the same time.

The Second World War

NOTE: I do not have a degree in history, however, I have read many books in the subject and consider myself a slight expert, especially on the Ostfront. I aspire to PHD in European History.


In any case:

Most German generals did not believe the war was lost. I think you are misunderstanding what they attempt to imply. They knew the offensive war was lost, so what they attempted to do was to blood their enemies in order to pull an armstice, where Germany would still survive the war. That's why the Germans intensified resistance in late 1944 and early 1945 (The Fall of Berlin, Antony Beevor & The Last Battle, Cornelius Ryan). In fact, military analysis points to the fact that the post-Stalingrad Werhmacht was still very capable of winning the Second World War.

However, I must agree that the United States had only a minimal effect on the outcome of the war. The only reason Operation Overlord was even pulled off was because the Western Allies refused to acknowledge Soviet supremacy in Europe. This policy directly led to the Cold War - however, I doubt a seperate policy would have ended differently. After Germany's debacle in Operation Zitadelle (Operation Citadel, July 6, 1943) Russia was increasingly capable of solely defeating Germany and her allies.

Yes, the Red Army encountered very heavy casualties throughout the war. However, this was not because the Russian's were horrible at war... it was because Stalin had purged most of his effective NCOs and Junion Officers. Red Army tactics had improved considerably by 1944 and 1945 - Koniev's hammering of the River Spree is just a testament to that.

Zionism

As long as they stay with in their own borders prescribed to them by the United Nations? I think you should learn your history my friend, or you'll be deemed one of those idiots who believe Israel is the imperialist in the region.


Modern times call for Modern Imperialism. Israel's 'modern imperialism' is based around ideas such as settlements and armed incursions, this helps to create an environment of fear and obedience. The Settlements, despite also being tactically useful destroy any hope of a Palestinian state, imagine France building settlements near the coast of Plymouth.
The settlers themselves are the worst of the worst, religious zealots just as bad as HAMAS or HIZBOLLAH (which would have never came about if it wasnt for Israel's murdering of 1000's of Lebanese when shelling Beirut).
The Modern Israeli argument is 'security' yet on a long term scale, they have just practically destroyed any hope of security for future generations. Seperation and isolation create fear and loathing and misunderstanding. These are Sharon's aims and he hopes to achieve them through his illegal policies.
Let us not also forget the crimes that Sharon's Christian Militia commited in Palestine, murdering 100's of Palestinians and raping over a thousand women. Not to mention the crimes of Unit 101 and the propoganda that is broadcast day in day out by the Israeli media. Media control over the Israelis has also helped to instill fear and loathing, leading to a situation where the stalemate was almost inevitable.
And Also Macabees, is Noam Chomsky to be considered ignorant? The same man who has 50 Honorary Degrees and over 200 awards for political literature? The man who the New York Time's described as "The most important intellectual alive." Is he an 'idiot?

Also Nuovo Campania thank you for your kind words

Unfortunately, I agree with Hellenic here. Except for the Nuova Campania part.

So the Cambodians were better than the Vietnamese?, Who supported the resistance against the Soviets in Afghanistan which lead to the creation of Al Qaeda and the Taliban, who invaded panama and killed thousands, who’s helped install Augusta Pinochet which lead to the deaths of THOUSANDS, who has killed tortured and abused civilians in Vietnam, and who did not support the resolution put to the UN that would formally recognize the Ukrainian famine during the days of the soviets, Yes that’s right the USA, well they even didn’t support Australia at first when we intervened in East Timor after the massacres that had taken place there supported by US ally, Indonesia.

Communism may not be great but its on par with capitalism

Israel:

Because what Serbia did in Albania is called cultural genocide. That's why you fool.

Oh yea Hellenic? Where is your evidence? You and your European anti-Semetic attitude. You guys claim that Americans are biased, and hate Greece... such a hypocrit. Where is your proof that Israel did that? What, Palestinian propaganda and false cries? Do you believe everything you've ever seen? You're the one who read too little and watches too much TV.. you've lost any credibility you once had with what you have said about Israel. It prove you are completely ignorant in terms of knowing what's false and what's real.

Sure, Sharon has destroyed housing, sure he has killed people. But in wars there are civilian casualties... oh of course, nobody cares about the hundreds of Israelites, Jews and Christian alike, dead because some Arab decided to strap a bomb onto himself because some fanatic Arab Imam ordered him to. Nobody cares about those Palestinians who do not believe in their incorrect cause who are killed by their own people. People only care about what the Jews do to others - ignoring the over 100,000 dead in Jordan after 1967.

I am not anti American, but if I was to support the US at the moment I could be labelled the same as those that supported the Nazi's.

After reading this post I can happily say that the Hellenic Empire is very true in its arguments, this is the type of stuff we in Australia see and learn about all the time with such a vast multicultural back ground, I still don’t understand why Australia supports the US with its hateful policies and policies that could really be tested by the UN. I come from a city that at one point was the largest Greek city after Athens, but now I think it is the third largest Greek city in the world, people from a society other than the American can somewhat grasp aspects of other nations and be able to comprehend them and look at them intellectually much more so than an American could comprehend its own nation.

I have to say that this statement bothers and confuses me a great deal. You seem to be proud of your plualistic education and views, you espouse the value of multiculturalism. In essence, you argue that all people should keep an open mind. Or do I misunderstand you? You then go on to make completely prejudiced statements against Americans. I myself am an American citizen. I am also extremely dissapointed with my government and the way it deals with and has dealt with policy, both foreign and domestic. I "can somewhat grasp aspects of other nations and [am] able to comprehend them and look at them intellecually." Apparently, by making such a generalized statement, you sir are unable to espouse those very qualities you deem lacking in myself and my fellow Americans.

I didn't ask you to support the US, only the US Citizenry. What you are basically saying is that you don't support AMERICANS because of what one idiot in office does. What hellenic said is much worse. Thank goodness he doesn't run a country, because he would massacre everyone who wasn't greek and who wasn't Greek Orthodox.

NOTE< I am not racist against Greeks, but Hellenic is putting a bad face onto Greece. I admit that Grecian history nor culture are something I have studied intensely, but if Hellenic is the template of Greeks, I might not want to.

Albanians and Serbians are very different people, the same as the difference between Ukrainians and Russians. This was far deeper than cultural genocide, this was on the same level as Israel killing Arabs. And also you want to know why so many Europeans hate Jews, its because they have supported so many that have killed and oppressed people, the Jews were the major supporters of the polish invading Ukraine, the Jews were the major supporters of the Soviets, hell Trotsky was a Jew.

So the Cambodians were better than the Vietnamese?, Who supported the resistance against the Soviets in Afghanistan which lead to the creation of Al Qaeda and the Taliban, who invaded panama and killed thousands, who’s helped install Augusta Pinochet which lead to the deaths of THOUSANDS, who has killed tortured and abused civilians in Vietnam, and who did not support the resolution put to the UN that would formally recognize the Ukrainian famine during the days of the soviets, Yes that’s right the USA, well they even didn’t support Australia at first when we intervened in East Timor after the massacres that had taken place there supported by US ally, Indonesia.

Communism may not be great but its on par with capitalism

Who caused that very famine? Communism, with their petty collectivization. No, Cambodia was no better than Vietnam...in fact Cambodia was way worse than Vietnam, and I praise Vietnam's intervention there.

Oh wait! Who sat by and watched while Ruanda was torn in bloodshed... over 1 million dead in genocide and war? Frace, and the European Union. In fact the regime doing the killed was BACKED by the EU.

Face it guys..the USA aren't the bad guys. It's called Politics. Everyone is bad in politics.. you do things that are good for your nation, not things that are good for the people. Face it, and stop living lies.

Israel does what it has to do to survive, so does the USA... it's called ambition. Just because Greece is a piece of crap country that prefers to isolate itself and critisize Israel and the USA (because both are stronger and healthier) that doesn't give you the right to post this.

To repeat--

This isn't supposed to be in II. Take it to General instead, please.

I have family in the US, I simply don’t hate all Americans, but I honestly cant seem to find one that hates Bush and the policies of most American governments. Many Americans I have talked to don’t even know where Australia, or Greece is. Also the continual French bashing is idiotic, who helped America gain independence from England, France, they supplied vast numbers of trained soldiers and large amounts of money to the American independence movement, without such support Bush would only be Governor General. Also the treatment Australia has received from the US is at best deplorable, the US government spokesmen working fro the US-Australia free trade agreement demanded our health system be torn apart and US firms gain higher ground in most sectors of corporate Australia.

Well. Don't count me in with those people. I can point out practically any nation on an unlabeled map... plus I don't support Bush. I would much rather have Gore as president, as he was at least somewhat Liberal. Kerry doesn't seem to have a platform... also I have nothing against the French. I yell at people when they bash them.

... also I have nothing against the French. I yell at people when they bash them.

No, you don't. You join in and sing the French-bashing drinking song.

I find this topic very interesting. American foriegn policy at the moment is a joke and the sooner this incompetant american administration becomes a footnote in the history books the better.
Nuovo Compania makes some good points.

I have family in the US, I simply don’t hate all Americans, but I honestly cant seem to find one that hates Bush and the policies of most American governments. Many Americans I have talked to don’t even know where Australia, or Greece is. Also the continual French bashing is idiotic, who helped America gain independence from England, France, they supplied vast numbers of trained soldiers and large amounts of money to the American independence movement, without such support Bush would only be Governor General. Also the treatment Australia has received from the US is at best deplorable, the US government spokesmen working fro the US-Australia free trade agreement demanded our health system be torn apart and US firms gain higher ground in most sectors of corporate Australia.

I sympathize with your frustration at being unable to find the left here (we do exist, we do hate Bush and his policies). I also agree that the treatment many people here give the French is idiotic. I think we have a lot to learn from French government, and that a lot of our problems could be dealt with if we adopted some of their policies. I know nothing about US-Australian relations but I must say I'm not surprised by that information and it saddens me greatly that the nation that once lead the "trust-busting" charge has such dismal economic policy. I merely wish to send you a friendly warning, that you must be careful about your language else you give the wrong impression.

well thats great to see, I will say that as a person outside of the US looking in at the last election, Gore was the one we would hav eprefered, but then Bush got in...we asked ourselves how that happened, then saw the number of persons that voted. australia has compulsory voting an i honestly think it is a great idea to have that. Australia is treated very badly by the US none the less- we prefer Canadians and the Danish. I have cable and get Fox News Channel, please tell me how anyone could watch that with out yelling at the biased presenters?

By The Macabbes:
In fact, military analysis points to the fact that the post-Stalingrad Werhmacht was still very capable of winning the Second World War.


Show me this analysis and show me the relevant conclusion saying it was possible for the war to be won.

By The Macabbes:
You and your European anti-Semetic attitude.


Ahh, the Jewish Cliche, calling people an 'anti-semite' when you criticise Israel. A great way to deflect critiscm.

By The Macabees:
However, this was not because the Russian's were horrible at war... it was because Stalin had purged most of his effective NCOs and Junion Officers


I doubt damage control would have been limited that much in terms of casualties, even with the expierienced officers in there. Never forget 80% of the total German Army was on the Eastern Front.

By Tyrandis
"Have you ever seen what Communism is in the real world? Have you ever seen what the inevitable results of Communism are?"


I'm enjoying this political discussion, just ignore this guy however, he seems to follow me around to all my threads for some reason :roll:
Again, I never supported Communism in my comments, though its attrocities are comparable to that of the US' ideological attrocities.

By Attican
"Proof? None"


Im not proclaiming that all of them were telling the truth, I'm just showing you how easy it is to turn an argument around.

By Attican
Yes, just like you are biased that the Greek people are superior to everyone else.


Again I never said this, lets not brake this down to the elements of 'whose race is better?' thats an American trait, one which I consider racist.

By Attican
I fail to see how you bringing up German failures in WW1/2 mattered, either.


Because it was relevant to the point at hand which was who won the War in Europe?

By Attican
Same with you with your obvious racist beliefs towards Germans and Poles.


Funny you should mention I am anti-german Attican. I am very much pro-german when it comes to the Germans as a people, I consider them efficient, nice, respectable and above all a people who are not dominated by patriotism.
As for Poles, who on earth brought them up at any time!?? I mean, honestly now, are you mad or something?

By Attican
Your "Cyprus" problem is Greek and Greek alone. You caused it, you deal with it. It's not our problem.


No, you caused it. Read your History, you armed the Turks, you trained them and provided strategic information about military positions within Cyprus. I'd call that going out of your way to make it your problem!

By Attican
So Greeks are disadvantaged?


*Sighs* Attican read this post again:
By The Hellenic Empire:
Anyway that is not the point at hand and everyone with a basic understanding of economics knows that America's boom's mainly came about as a result of lucky comparitive advantages during the 20's. This was propelled forward by full scale laissez faire, a style of Government which most countries refuse to either consider because of its unfairness on the disadvantaged.


Now do you realise how stupid you sound, when did I ever make the correlation betweeen Greeks and disadvantaged?

By Attican:
I only supported the Vietnam war


Did you also support mass bombing of civilian targets?
If yes do you believe you are a hypocrite?

by Attican:
Offer at least SOME evidence to counter my point. As of now, my point still stands, because you haven't disproven it.


No, I have offered evidence, the fact around 80% of The German Army was on the Eastern front for a start.
It is clear that you are a Reaganite.

by Attican:
Your the Greek Nationalist, not me.


Again... Are you mad? Seriously now?

by Attican:
you are a Nationalist Communist who is trying to back up his communist party by stating that only they defeated Germany, and they alone.


I'm a member of The British Conservative Party. Communist hysteria obviously still prevails in America?
And the facts I brought up are well known documented historical fact.
Don't honestly tell me you consider yourself an 'expert' but didn't know the vast majority of German Troops were on the Eastern Front?

by Attican:
while trying to anger you at the same time.


I'm getting this sneaking feeling I'm posting to someone who is a madman who escaped from his asylum somehow.....

I honestly have to calm down when i start talking about the US and its government, im sorry but there is a frustration around.

well thats great to see, I will say that as a person outside of the US looking in at the last election, Gore was the one we would hav eprefered, but then Bush got in...we asked ourselves how that happened, then saw the number of persons that voted. australia has compulsory voting an i honestly think it is a great idea to have that. Australia is treated very badly by the US none the less- we prefer Canadians and the Danish. I have cable and get Fox News Channel, please tell me how anyone could watch that with out yelling at the biased presenters?

Yeah, we're kind of wondering what happened in 2000, as well. As for Fox News, the easy way to not yell at is either to not watch it at all or to take it with a grain of salt and laugh at the stupid people. (No, this is not meant to suggest that all conservatives are stupid or that eveybody on Fox News is stupid. But you have to admit, whateveer your political leanings, that they get some real nutjobs)

The O'reilly factor can be somewhat amusing, but hanity and colmes is as right as you can get (mainly hanity), i just cant stand watching greta her voice annoys me, and Fox and Friends has to be where the gateway to hell is located.

Many of your facts are true, but your conclusions are not. I suggest you study up on the Middle Eastern conflict more before jumping to any conclusions, especially in the case of Lebanon, a confusing country if ever there was one. I would suggest Thomas Friedman's "From Beirut to Jerusalem". It is the account of a New York Times journalist's experience in Beirut during its most tumultuous years, and has provided the best account and summary of Lebanese history during that time period that I have seen so far. Making vague statements about Israeli complicity in Lebanese affairs and in the creation of Hezbollah (as well as the origins and practices of Palestinian organizations) make you appear like a conspiracy theorist, especially since those statements are often inaccurate or slanted, conveniently omitting certain facts which completely change the result.

I am not going to outline what exactly the flaws in your statements were, since as has been pointed out, this is not the correct forum for these sorts of discussions. Also, never interpret the agreement of another person as proof that you are correct. It makes you intellectually lazy in the long run.

I have read Noam Chomsky before, and even though the Times may call him "the most important intellectual alive" (I actually recall reading that particular article, much to my amusement at the time), that does not mean that he is infallible. He writes his books to prove a point, and all of his reasearch is dedicated towards that goal, not to finding counter-examples to disprove his own arguments. I will admit they are brilliantly researched, but at the same time I am often forced to decide that there is a completely different side to the story that he nevers bothers to look in to. I would advice you to read not just the ideas of those you agree with, but also those with whom you disagree. I do, and it has made me far more reasonable when it comes to loyalty to a cause, and far less likely to rely upon the prestige of any one man.

That mistakes have been/are being made by Israel in the Middle East process is true. But do not make blanket statements about Israeli blame in the lack of a peace process. There is more than enough blame to go around. You call it propaganda when the Israelis are depicted favorably in the news, but how can you not see that Palestinians are equally adept (if not more so) at this type of propaganda? Everyone wants to empathize with the underdog, but in this case there are no true victims. All the parties involved have helped make their situation the way it is. That is why fair, impartial mediation is the key to solving the conflict. And that sort of mediation cannot occur as long as terrorist attacks continue. Also, it is not possible to roll back time to 1967 and say that is the only way things can be. Alot has changed since then, and both parties need to realize that. There must be real sacrifice from both sides, and unfortunately that is the surest way to enrage zealots in both camps.

As for European history in the case of WW2: the turning point of the war may have been Stalingrad, but Stalingrad could never have been sufficient to win the war. Stalingrad represented the defeat of Hitler's offensive capability, but he was strong enough to hold on to the territory he had taken, as long as a second front was never opened. The US was the reason was the war was won at all. Britain lacked the capability to lauch such an invasion, crippled as they were by wartime shortages and U-boat attacks. It was the US that enabled the Allies to counterattack at all. It is almost a consensus among all historians that World War II could not have been won without US involvement. Understand that a peace treaty without the loss of German territory and autonomy would have been a victory for Germany, creating the same type of situation that existed at the end of World War I, prompting one prominent politician to state at the time that it was not a peace treaty, but "a truce for 30 years".

By Attican
Yes, just like you are biased that the Greek people are superior to everyone else.


Again I never said this, lets not brake this down to the elements of 'whose race is better?' thats an American trait, one which I consider racist.

Does anyone else find the above ironic?

The Second World War:

1. Military analysis. I invite you read volumes upon volumes of work, most notably by David M. Glantz (The Battle of Kursk, Leningrad, and many many others I have not read). Glantz, in cooperation with Helmutz Herber also has published a complete list of Hitler's stenographic records with his generals and this is called Hitler and His Generals and was published this year. Beevor is good, but staunchly anti-Communist, so I could see severe bias in that respect, although most of it is just embellishing stories (the facts are kept straight). The book Operation Citadelle by an author who I can't remember right now (library check out..I have a book on the Bulge by him, but I can't remember his name... my collection is at my dad's house). There are a myriad of other books also...Manstein's Lost Victories point towards this idea, as do those of Manteuffel in his own memoirs. This is the best evidence I can give you.

2. Yes 80% of the Werhmacht was on the Eastern Front. However 100% of the Red Army was on their Western Front. At the start of the war the Soviets lost somewhere near 6,000 armored vehicles in the first three weeks...most of it because of poor Junior Officers. Superior Soviet ordnance did nothing to aid because little experienced hampered tactical achievements. The Red Army was anywhere from two times to four times as large as the Werhmacht during any period of the war (except from the fourth week to about August).

Brace yourselves, the ignorants are about to arrive!

Good post Lenbonia. I am still studying on the Middle East as I have only just started.

By the way:

"Making vague statements about Israeli complicity in Lebanese affairs and in the creation of Hezbollah"

No this wasnt my point at all.

My point was that the invasion of Lebanon lead to the rise of HAMAS and HIZBOLLAH because they gained more popular support.

To the Australians reading this:

I'm sorry about current US-Australian relations, but frankly it isn't very important to most Americans. Australia is a country we think far less about than many other countries in world, due not only to its distance from us but also because Australia is such a calm and un-troublesome country (I am of course not trying to say that Australians are weak or unimportant, but merely that they do not have a habit of killing large numbers of people or derailing economic and political deals that are important to us). In fact, most Americans know Australia only as a country with a population of people with strange accents and kangaroos. I myself rarely find myself thinking about Australia at all, although I will say that the Australian contestant on the recent Miss Universe pageant was my favorite from the beginning (don't ask, watching the pageant is sort of a family tradition).

Before you jump to any conclusions about Americans, I am a well-informed American citizen, and furthermore I would be considered so in any country in the world. So when you look at recent/past actions by the US towards Australia and feel slighted, just remember that most people in the US don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. That sort of news ends up in the back of the main section on page A16, if at all. I would love to hear what exactly the issues are that have caused you to believe that the US is insulting your country, especially considering the fact that I am considering spending a semester abroad somewhere, and Australia is on the list of countries that I am interested in. Quick question: what's the best place in Australia to go if you are interested in studying foreign policy?

I must admit that I haven't been keeping as much abreast on international news as I usually do, so maybe some Australian issues have popped up in papers/magazines recently. Still, from what I have been paying attention to during my vacation, I haven't heard a thing beyond the fact that many of you Aussies don't seem to like that Howard guy much.

Many issue with the US started over treatment of Australia by president Wilson during the years of the League of Nations, when Australia attempted to anex German New Guinea during the start of WWI to protect Australia, America did not support Australia and other 'Empire' nations push for independence and equal status to Britain. The US government was also not seen to be happy with the newly elected ALP government during the 1970's and is said to have had a hand in the dissmissal of the government by the Governor General- something that broke many conventions. Then many Australian's were pissed with the vietnam war and US treatment of China, Australian Prime Minister Gough Whitlam was the first Western Leader to visit China and had done so before Nixon. Whitlam pulled Aussie troops out of Vietnam and this pissed off the US.

In more recent times, the issue of US soldiers on Australia soil has ruffled a few feathers and most recently when our Prime Minister, the most hated, John howard went to the US, George Bush commented on Australian domestic politics, the first to ever do so, and this is considered to be very inconsiderate and has never occured before. Also the new leader of the opposition, Marke Latham, had labelled Bush dangerous, and the pm an arse licker, this made the US ambassador a little angry and his comments further infuriated many Australian's.

Most Australians dont support the US-Australia free trade agreement, due to the fact Australia will economically be crushed by the agreement- the issue of subsidies for farmers will never go away, the US and EU being the worst when it comes to compromise.

Foreign Policy, most australian Universities on the East Coast will be concerned with Asian affairs, but will still have a mix of European and American relations, but the ANU in the ACT would be a good bet, Flinders in SA, Monash in Victoria, not sure other than that. Melbourne is the best city, sydney is over rated and disgusting, bad weather most of the time and lots of pollution.

OCC:I suggest this to be moved to General but oh well.


"And they would have victored in both World Wars if it were not for the United States"

Wrong again I'm afraid. As I said, speak to any Historian of this modern age and they will tell you that the War "Could not have been won without Russia."


The war could of been won without Russia, as long as they didn't join the Axis. If they remained Neutrual the US and allies could of won WWII, or atleast that's what I think. If Russia joined the Axis however, I'd guess that the Allies would of lost. Russia was mass producing tanks, airplanes, and military equiptment at a very fast rate. I believe that US involvement in WWII sped up victory. The war could of been won without the US but it would of taken longer. In WWI I'm not too sure as I'm not very familiar with it. I'll agree that a majority of Germany's Army was on the Eastern Front, and that the armies involved in the Eastern Front were some of Germany's best soldiers. It gets me annoyed when Americans mention how we saved Europe. Yes we contributed, but so did 45 other countries. Some of those countries suffered a lot more casualties than the US did.

I have family in the US, I simply don’t hate all Americans, but I honestly cant seem to find one that hates Bush and the policies of most American governments. Many Americans I have talked to don’t even know where Australia, or Greece is. Also the continual French bashing is idiotic, who helped America gain independence from England, France, they supplied vast numbers of trained soldiers and large amounts of money to the American independence movement, without such support Bush would only be Governor General. Also the treatment Australia has received from the US is at best deplorable, the US government spokesmen working fro the US-Australia free trade agreement demanded our health system be torn apart and US firms gain higher ground in most sectors of corporate Australia.

There's plenty of Americans that dislike Bush. It obvious in the recent polls being taken, and by various websites being created. I hope most Americans can find Australia and Greece on a map. I also hate the French bashing. Calling them cowards and all. France was a key factor in gaining our independence. I'm not familiar with that issue in Australia. Guess that's all for now.

Well, in World War 1, Europe was engaged in Trench Warfare, mainly in France. The Germans statistically had the advantage- The Russians had surrendered, and they had divisions to transfer to the western front. However, in the same year, the Americans joined the war. The Germans, fearful of the increased American numbers (They were holding their own, but American troops would just tip the tide), they mounted 3 offensives in order to gain a better foothold. Each failed. In time, the American presence grew to about the size of the BEF, and the Germans were pushed back. Also in 1917, the British started using TANKS, which pushed the Germans back about 10-20 miles. However, the Germans counterattacked and regained the land. Basically, the sheer mass of the Entente forces after the Americans joined pushed the Alliance (mainly the Germans, though I beleive there were some Austro-Hungarians on the western front) back to the borders of Germany, which is when Kaiser Wilhelm II abdicated the throne, and Germany signed the armistice.

To the Australians reading this:

I'm sorry about current US-Australian relations, but frankly it isn't very important to most Americans. Australia is a country we think far less about than many other countries in world, due not only to its distance from us but also because Australia is such a calm and un-troublesome country (I am of course not trying to say that Australians are weak or unimportant, but merely that they do not have a habit of killing large numbers of people or derailing economic and political deals that are important to us). In fact, most Americans know Australia only as a country with a population of people with strange accents and kangaroos. I myself rarely find myself thinking about Australia at all, although I will say that the Australian contestant on the recent Miss Universe pageant was my favorite from the beginning (don't ask, watching the pageant is sort of a family tradition).

Before you jump to any conclusions about Americans, I am a well-informed American citizen, and furthermore I would be considered so in any country in the world. So when you look at recent/past actions by the US towards Australia and feel slighted, just remember that most people in the US don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. That sort of news ends up in the back of the main section on page A16, if at all. I would love to hear what exactly the issues are that have caused you to believe that the US is insulting your country, especially considering the fact that I am considering spending a semester abroad somewhere, and Australia is on the list of countries that I am interested in. Quick question: what's the best place in Australia to go if you are interested in studying foreign policy?

I must admit that I haven't been keeping as much abreast on international news as I usually do, so maybe some Australian issues have popped up in papers/magazines recently. Still, from what I have been paying attention to during my vacation, I haven't heard a thing beyond the fact that many of you Aussies don't seem to like that Howard guy much.

I would like to beg to differ on your take on what "Most Americans" think of Austrailia.
Perhaps because of the area I live in, or some other factor I am unaware of, I find that most Americans I encounter think of Austrailians as the Americans of the Southern Hemisphere. Relating far more to them then our Canadian neighbors(no offense canucks). Austrailians share the deep rooted feeling of being wronged by the same empire that wronged American ancestors.
Again perhaps because I live in a community that is rippled with a variety of immigrants from across the globe, that I feel this way.
Even to hear new Americans speak of Austrailia, they do so in a very similar fashion towards America(especialy Hmongs).
I guess I should correct myself, I am not saying you are wrong Lenbonia, but I offer a different perspective.

First. I wanted to point out that WWII was won NOT by the Russians OR the Americans. It was won by the Allies. ALL of the countries who had mobilized against Nazi Germany contributed to the fall of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party.

Second. I wanted to say that neither Bush OR Gore should have been president. The person who should have been president is John McCain.
With 22 years in the navy (5 of them spent as a prisoner of war in Vietnam.) and he is into his third term as a senator. He is chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee and serves on the Armed Services and Indian Affairs committees. Neither of the others have even close to the qualifications to serve as the commander and chief of the US millitary.

Third. While I love the US. I can also see where it has gone wrong. When we backed Afghanastan in removing the russians from the country we forgot to be there when the fighting was over. The country was devistated and in dire need of international help but we just said good luck and got out ASAP. BUT the sole responsibility does not lie in american hands. There where other countries who saw Afghanastan as the weak little kid in the schoolyard and jumped in to get what they could and got out. This in turn brought about the rise of radical extreemist muslim groups who eventuallly took over.

Last but not least. You want to blame America on the Vietnam war but most people fail to see the facts that the US was badgered into signing a treaty with South Vietnam by the UN. The French had been in Vietnam and that turned out badly for them. But they didn't have the media coverage the US did while it was there. Also the Australians were there, but they bailed as soon as it started to go bad for them as well. (I don't blame them at all for it.) The main reason the world associated the US with the Vietnam war was the amount of media coverage. News reports from Vietnam came from the front lines straight to your living room. Never before had graphic images of soldiers and civilians suffering and dieing been seen, or to such a degree.

Sorry one more thing. All the Americans I know hav no dislike AT ALL for Australians or Greeks at all. America was formed on the assumption that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL. America was built by people from England, France, Ireland, Greece, Germany, Italy, India, Lebanon, and more than can be listed here. My point is America does care about the rest of the world. We spend TWO TIMES as much money on FOREIGN AID as we do for our millitary.

Sorry about the post but I had to vent after reading the rabid Anti-American sentiments.

This message brought to you by the betterment of The Red Right Hand society. Do you have an IQ over 120 considder moving to our country where you will be granted free housing and access to our extensive research facilities. Lun Chun-Meat-Director of Immigration :wink:

[quote="The Red right hand"]
Also the Australians were there, but they bailed as soon as it started to go bad for them as well. (I don't blame them at all for it.) quote]


Australia was very efficient in the vietnam war, it did have losses, but the reason Australia pulled out was because the backlash by the Australian people( with the biggest demonstrations on australian streets untill the eve of the new Iraq war), the governing Liberal conservative government (dont ask how it works but the conservative call themselves liberal's in Australia) and Gough Whitlam was voted in as the Labor Party took power after over 20 years of Liberal government. The ALP simply undertook its policy and pulled Australian troops out.

[i

In 1956 Israel launched an invasion of the Sinai, in which they retired from the investment when France and the U.K. invaded - .

Actually the "Suez War" France and the UK invaded as per a secret agreement with Israel, the Israelis would launch the attack into the Sinai, and the UK and French would land troops to "separate" the egyptians and israelis, and in the process they would "take control" of the Suez Canal which Nasser had nationalized. The UK, France, and Israel only backed off when America pressured the UK and France to withdraw and then Israel had to pull out also because the UK and France were gone.

I just began reading a very detailed book on it, "Arabs at War" by Kenneth Pollock.

If 3.5 Million German Soldiers and 2000 Heavy Tanks 2000 Planes and thousands of Guns had been moved for the priority of taking the UK, and Russia had never been invaded then Germany would have taken the UK without question, whatever romantic notions you may have about the Home Guard and other such fighting units they would have not lasted long.

To say that America won the war is despicable, it discredits the tens of million of Russians that died, and is a blatant historical lie. As I have just mentioned above, if the Eastern front force had been moved to take Britain... They would have taken it no question. There would have been no hope to launch an invasion for America as launching an Cross-Atlantic Invasion is almost laughable.

I cant believe no one has come on here to defend Russia, as most intelligent people know, Russia won the war, not America. No matter what you may think Americans, and you think very little, you cannot ignore blatant historical fact and try and propogandarize World War 2. The huge sacrifice the Russian people made is worse than anything you could have dreamed about, imagine New York being besieged for 700 Days. So long that wallpaper paste fetched high prices in the streets and so did cats and dogs.

You cant begin to imagine what it must of been like for those people, but to then say that the War could have been won without them? You are doing yourself a disservice, as I have never heard anything so unbelievably stupid. What do they teach you in American schools apart from how great your own country is and you are the 'greatest democracy on earth' if you call a country where the mass media is all right wing and The President has the powers of a dictator a 'democracy'.

Thats another reason why I think Americans are ignorant, don't start telegramming me saying that all of you are not the same when you all come out with the same crap about World War 2. You know nothing so shut your fucking mouths.

If 3.5 Million German Soldiers and 2000 Heavy Tanks 2000 Planes and thousands of Guns had been moved for the priority of taking the UK, and Russia had never been invaded then Germany would have taken the UK without question, whatever romantic notions you may have about the Home Guard and other such fighting units they would have not lasted long.

Erm... no. The German Reich had no means to launch an attack on the British home isles. Not even the Luftwaffe could finish off the RAF - by the start of the Battle of Britain the RAF had already developed plans to move their fighter squadrons to the rear of the River Thames, where the German Me-109s couldn't reach, hence leaving their bombers completely unprotected, and perfect game for RAF pilots.

Neither did the Reich have the aircraft available to launch an airborne invasion; not to mention the casualties to that would be horrible. Germany almost lost their operation to take Crete.

All the more, Germany did not have a navy to take on the Royal Navy in the channel or North Sea. The English Channel was way to shallow for successful u-boat warfare in any case.

In short, Germany had no way to take the British Isles... if you would love to argue then join my military history group I admin on yahoo, and argue with some of the best historians on this planet.

To say that America won the war is despicable, it discredits the tens of million of Russians that died, and is a blatant historical lie. As I have just mentioned above, if the Eastern front force had been moved to take Britain... They would have taken it no question. There would have been no hope to launch an invasion for America as launching an Cross-Atlantic Invasion is almost laughable.

That proves you know nothing about the secrets of that war. The U.S. had already developed classified plans to invade the Spanish Canary Islands, and from there invade North Africa, and then go up through Italy and Southern France.

I cant believe no one has come on here to defend Russia, as most intelligent people know, Russia won the war, not America. No matter what you may think Americans, and you think very little, you cannot ignore blatant historical fact and try and propogandarize World War 2. The huge sacrifice the Russian people made is worse than anything you could have dreamed about, imagine New York being besieged for 700 Days. So long that wallpaper paste fetched high prices in the streets and so did cats and dogs.

You can't discredit the United States just because the Red Army was full of complete idiots - causing millions upon millions of casualties when they weren't necessary. I suggest you stop watching the history channel and Soviet sources on the war, and read some real WWII literature.

You cant begin to imagine what it must of been like for those people, but to then say that the War could have been won without them? You are doing yourself a disservice, as I have never heard anything so unbelievably stupid. What do they teach you in American schools apart from how great your own country is and you are the 'greatest democracy on earth' if you call a country where the mass media is all right wing and The President has the powers of a dictator a 'democracy'.

The French think they won the war. You can't begin to imagine was it must of been for those French who are told that they didn't win the war. :P It's called patriotism..each individual from each nation thinks their nation won the war.. I on the otherhand..as a Spaniard, American and Israeli (although Catholic)... believe that the great alliance won the war..not an individual nation.

Thats another reason why I think Americans are ignorant, don't start telegramming me saying that all of you are not the same when you all come out with the same crap about World War 2. You know nothing so shut your f--- mouths.

Actually, you've proved that you know nothing about the Second World War.

I would like to beg to differ on your take on what "Most Americans" think of Austrailia.
Perhaps because of the area I live in, or some other factor I am unaware of, I find that most Americans I encounter think of Austrailians as the Americans of the Southern Hemisphere. Relating far more to them then our Canadian neighbors(no offense canucks). Austrailians share the deep rooted feeling of being wronged by the same empire that wronged American ancestors.
Again perhaps because I live in a community that is rippled with a variety of immigrants from across the globe, that I feel this way.
Even to hear new Americans speak of Austrailia, they do so in a very similar fashion towards America(especialy Hmongs).
I guess I should correct myself, I am not saying you are wrong Lenbonia, but I offer a different perspective.

I'm afraid people came away from my earlier post with the false impression that I was trying to say that Americans don't like Australia. Actually, all I was trying to say was that Americans don't know all that much about Australia, especially in matters of current policy. I agree with you that Americans feel a deep connection to Australians as a people, although I don't know as to whether or not this is reciprocated :D .
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World War II again:

Once again, I'd like to point out that a victory for the Allies could only have been the complete destruction of Germany as a military power, to ensure that another World War would not happen again. I am well aware of the USSR's monumental sacrifices in WW2, and I feel ashamed that we allowed those sacrifices to continue for so long because we would not open up a second front because we did not like the Soviets. However, when it comes to asking what nation tipped the balance and caused the war to be won by the Allies, the answer is the US. If that country had been Switzerland, I would have said Switzerland; I don't really care about nationalism when it comes to history.

The US is what kept Britain in the war all those years (yes I know it could not have been managed without immense British resolve, but without US shipments the Brits would have either starved or run out of weapons to fight with), and the US gave Britain the help it needed to breach Germany's defenses and open up the second front that Stalin had been desperately trying to convince them to open. Once again, Stalin lacked the resources to defeat Germany and then to invade them on the Eastern Front without the creation of a second front that would divert resources away from the Eastern one. The USSR's continued involvement in the war was a necessary cause of victory, but it was not sufficient (to those of you who don't know what this means, study up on your historians and philosophers). The US caused the war to be won. No other country could have done so. Perhaps in time the USSR might have managed it, but this is pure conjecture on your part. Many historians believe that Germany could have held the Red Army off long enough to force the two parties to sign a peace treaty.

If 3.5 Million German Soldiers and 2000 Heavy Tanks 2000 Planes and thousands of Guns had been moved for the priority of taking the UK, and Russia had never been invaded then Germany would have taken the UK without question, whatever romantic notions you may have about the Home Guard and other such fighting units they would have not lasted long.

To say that America won the war is despicable, it discredits the tens of million of Russians that died, and is a blatant historical lie. As I have just mentioned above, if the Eastern front force had been moved to take Britain... They would have taken it no question. There would have been no hope to launch an invasion for America as launching an Cross-Atlantic Invasion is almost laughable.

I cant believe no one has come on here to defend Russia, as most intelligent people know, Russia won the war, not America. No matter what you may think Americans, and you think very little, you cannot ignore blatant historical fact and try and propogandarize World War 2. The huge sacrifice the Russian people made is worse than anything you could have dreamed about, imagine New York being besieged for 700 Days. So long that wallpaper paste fetched high prices in the streets and so did cats and dogs.

You cant begin to imagine what it must of been like for those people, but to then say that the War could have been won without them? You are doing yourself a disservice, as I have never heard anything so unbelievably stupid. What do they teach you in American schools apart from how great your own country is and you are the 'greatest democracy on earth' if you call a country where the mass media is all right wing and The President has the powers of a dictator a 'democracy'.

Thats another reason why I think Americans are ignorant, don't start telegramming me saying that all of you are not the same when you all come out with the same crap about World War 2. You know nothing so shut your f--- mouths.

80% of all german losses occurred on the eastern front.
Operation Bagration totally destroyed Army Group Center (A defeat far worse than Stalingrad).

Yep, Army Group Centre was completely destroyed, mainly because of the massive production that the SU was able to put forward in terms of Tanks (they outnumbered the Germans ten to one). And the massive production of Aircraft (7 to 1).

Operatrion Bagration was the largest offensive operation ever mounted in military history, unfortunately The Macabees refuses to believe what is basically historical fact due to the fact he is Israeli, this clouds his judgment and makes him believe that "America saved the World", a misconception that in my mind, is almost criminal.

Operation Bagration is largely considered by the majority of historians as the series of battles that "Broke the back of the german war machine". Germany was never able to recover from the losses in terms of material and manpower that were sustained during this period.

"when it comes to asking what nation tipped the balance and caused the war to be won by the Allies, the answer is the US."

Unfortunately you get people like the above who pass judgement then never use facts to back up thier claims. Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together can see the balance was tipped in '43 with the Soviet Counter offensive - As I have said before facts speak for themselves and unfortunately the American patriots (Republicans) refuse to believe this.

USSR's continued involvement in the war was a necessary cause of victory, but it was not sufficient

I think the fact speak for themselves, the War on the Eastern front was always Hitler's main priority - Read up on Lebensraum you idiots, and therefore he considered this the most important objective. Facades such as N. Africa and The Battle of Britain were merely sideshows when compared to the gigantic battles on The Eastern Front.

Erm... no. The German Reich had no means to launch an attack on the British home isles.

The factors needed to provice a succesful invasion were complete domination of the air which would inevitable provide safe passage through the channel. The fact is one of the main reasons Germany lost The Battle of Britain was A) Their change in tactics to bombing British cities (they were actually winning before this point) and B) The moving of Planes to the Eastern front.
It is entirely plausible therefore that is Hitler would have ignored Russia and concentrated all his airforce resources on Britain, that its falling would be inevitable and the only question would be how long it would take.

The U.S. had already developed classified plans to invade the Spanish Canary Islands, and from there invade North Africa, and then go up through Italy and Southern France.

Theoretically if Hitler had ignored Russia and taken Britain, then The British N. Africa campign would have fallen, and there would have been no way to invade through N. Africa to Italy.

You can't discredit the United States just because the Red Army was full of complete idiots - causing millions upon millions of casualties when they weren't necessary.

Rhetoric...... The 'million and millions' of Soviet Casaulties were because the War was on a bigger scale, you cant simply argue that they could have been prevented by better leadership, because the scale was 5 times bigger than Normandy, hence meaning more casualties.

I suggest you stop watching the history channel and Soviet sources on the war, and read some real WWII literature.

Okay, now its clear you are a Republican, who considers anything other than Fox News "Commie Crap!" and will only read books by Right Wing authors, historical fact cannot be argued, you are trying to argue against it on the basis of your political ideals, which is stupid and furthermore discredits your argument.

can't begin to imagine was it must of been for those French who are told that they didn't win the war.

Again, you are a Republican, this discredits any argument you put forward.

I believe that the great alliance won the war..not an individual nation.

Nope, wrong again, different nations scale of involvement cannot be compared for example the Free Poles contribution to winning the War cannot be compared to The Soviet Unions. What you are trying to construe is a romantic ideal of a 'great alliance' doing it 'all together!'

Its like what I was just saying to a mate of mine of the phone, who also posts on NS as _Myopia_, he is a straight A* grade student, and the most intelligent person I know. I explained to him what The Republican argument was and he replied:

"Of course they are going to believe that is the case, they have had 60 years of propoganda shoved down thier throats."

Couldn't of said it better myself!

Had the USA not entered the war, and no 2nd front ever emerged, I think the Germans might have been able to stabilize the eastern front. It must be remembered that the main reason German production was so low was because of the mass American air attacks against key production facilities, while the British bravely used terror bombing against cities and population centers. (I'm sure the Brits will rush in here screaming, "Germany did it first") But I thought atrocity 1 doesn't justify atrocities 2-10. So if the germans bombed a few british cities and killed tens of thousands, does that mean UK can complete level most major german cities and kill millions?

Yep, Army Group Centre was completely destroyed, mainly because of the massive production that the SU was able to put forward in terms of Tanks (they outnumbered the Germans ten to one). And the massive production of Aircraft (7 to 1).

Operatrion Bagration was the largest offensive operation ever mounted in military history, unfortunately The Macabees refuses to believe what is basically historical fact due to the fact he is Israeli, this clouds his judgment and makes him believe that "America saved the World", a misconception that in my mind, is almost criminal.

Operation Bagration is largely considered by the majority of historians as the series of battle that [b] "Broke the back of the german war machine".

Hey Genius...Operation Bagration was launched June 22, 1944. A year and a half after Stalingrad, and a year after Kursk... and in fact, 16 days after the allies assault on Normany

Unfortunately you get people like the above who pass judgement then never use facts to back up thier claims. Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together can see the balance was tipped in '43 with the Soviet Counter offensive - As I have said before facts speak for themselves and unfortunately the American patriots (Republicans) refuse to believe this.

Again, the counter offensive you speak of was in 1944. 1943 was the German final offensive on the Eastern Front named Operation Zitadelle. The only major Soviet offensive in 1943 was in the Leningrad Front.


I think the fact speak for themselves, the War on the Eastern front was always Hitler's main priority - Read up on Lebensraum you idiots, and therefore he considered this the most important objective. Facades such as N. Africa and The Battle of Britain were merely sideshows when compared to the gigantic battles on The Eastern Front.

So? This has nothing to do about anything.

The factors needed to provice a succesful invasion were complete domination of the air which would inevitable provide safe passage through the channel. The fact is one of the main reasons Germany lost The Battle of Britain was A) Their change in tactics to bombing British cities (they were actually winning before this point) and B) The moving of Planes to the Eastern front.

Umm...again no... the Battle of Britain took place an entire year and then months before Operation Barbarossa. Thus, in 1940 most of the Luftwaffe was in France and fighting on the Kanalfront.


Theoretically if Hitler had ignored Russia and taken Britain, then The British N. Africa campign would have fallen, and there would have been no way to invade through N. Africa to Italy.

I suggest you research on Operation Torch. It's the U.S. invasion of Western Africa..and amphibious invasion... not only that but cross channel without the Canaries... Eisenhower's first command.


Rhetoric...... The 'million and millions' of Soviet Casaulties were because the War was on a bigger scale, you cant simply argue that they could have been prevented by better leadership, because the scale was 5 times bigger than Normandy, hence meaning more casualties./quote]

Umm... that's part of it... however, other than that..the Soviets lost 30 million people in this war... the Germans 10 million from all fronts... (civ and mil totals)... kind of disproportional don't you think?


[quote]Okay, now its clear you are a Republican, who considers anything other than Fox News "Commie Crap!" and will only read books by Right Wing authors, historical fact cannot be argued, you are trying to argue against it on the basis of your political ideals, which is stupid and furthermore discredits your argument.

I never said anything of the like..it's you who bends our words..and totally ignore the facts that we prove.






In other words you are a complete idiot... I think you should read a bit more instead of discredeting our sources.. in fact your so fucking stupid that I no longer feel that I have to argue with you.

Leftists disregard your arguments because they are based around rhetoric and misrepresentation of the fact, just like you are doing. Just look at all of Bush's speeches, when does he ever mention facts about why freedom fighters hate America? All he ever does is say they "Hate democracy" and "Hate our way of life", im sure the latter is true to some extent but this is not the reason that the freedom fighters attack you, its based around your foreign policy, double standard in Israel, invasions based on WMD that are never found and then on 'humanitarian' reasons that are completely contradictory considering the US' stance on supporting Governments such as The Saudi Government and earlier and most ironically, The Taliban, who the people hated more than the Communists.

I dont like Republicans, you have been so drugged up on propoganda its untrue, and then whenever anyone expresses displeasure with your unfair laissez faire system (Reaganomic worked well eh? :lol: ) you immediately go on a witch hunt and label them a 'commie', get out of my face you ugly little fat shit. I dont like descending to levels of having to argue on the the levels that Americans argue on, as far as I'm concerned, you and people like you are the reason that future terrorist attacks will occur against America, attacks which are justified because of the reasons that trigger the freedom fighters response.

Ok, so what does me being Republican have anything to do with the Second World War? You misconstrue my facts using the pretext that I'm Republican, because you know you're wrong. You have nothing to back up your arguments, except petty History Channel Information, when In fact I've read hundreds of books on the Second World War and read hundreds of primary source material.

I make my living writing about World War II. I am a freelancer for several military history magazines, and I upkeep a yahoo group on Military History as well as a new forum.

Ahh, so thats why you can only freelance :lol:

:lol: Of course you'd prefer FOX NEWS!!!!! To the History Channel because FOX is FAIR AND BALANCED!!!!!!

You are quite good to keep around, for comical value of course, it is you that has been ignoring blatant historical fact. Such as that 80% of German casualties were on the Eastern Front.

Though I would have really hope it was 35 million American dogs that would have died instead of the great russian people.

If 3.5 Million German Soldiers and 2000 Heavy Tanks 2000 Planes and thousands of Guns had been moved for the priority of taking the UK, and Russia had never been invaded then Germany would have taken the UK without question, whatever romantic notions you may have about the Home Guard and other such fighting units they would have not lasted long.

To say that America won the war is despicable, it discredits the tens of million of Russians that died, and is a blatant historical lie. As I have just mentioned above, if the Eastern front force had been moved to take Britain... They would have taken it no question. There would have been no hope to launch an invasion for America as launching an Cross-Atlantic Invasion is almost laughable.

I cant believe no one has come on here to defend Russia, as most intelligent people know, Russia won the war, not America. No matter what you may think Americans, and you think very little, you cannot ignore blatant historical fact and try and propogandarize World War 2. The huge sacrifice the Russian people made is worse than anything you could have dreamed about, imagine New York being besieged for 700 Days. So long that wallpaper paste fetched high prices in the streets and so did cats and dogs.

You cant begin to imagine what it must of been like for those people, but to then say that the War could have been won without them? You are doing yourself a disservice, as I have never heard anything so unbelievably stupid. What do they teach you in American schools apart from how great your own country is and you are the 'greatest democracy on earth' if you call a country where the mass media is all right wing and The President has the powers of a dictator a 'democracy'.

Thats another reason why I think Americans are ignorant, don't start telegramming me saying that all of you are not the same when you all come out with the same crap about World War 2. You know nothing so shut your f--- mouths.

Ahh, so thats why you can only freelance :lol:

:lol: Of course you'd prefer FOX NEWS!!!!! To the History Channel because FOX is FAIR AND BALANCED!!!!!!

You are quite good to keep around, for comical value of course, it is you that has been ignoring blatant historical fact. Such as that 80% of German casualties were on the Eastern Front.

Though I would have really hope it was 35 million American dogs that would have died instead of the great russian people.

Umm.... Fox News is not a history channel...and for your information I watch CNN... oh yea..Fox News doesn't talk about World War II.

Lol :lol:
Isnt CNN considered... Communist in your 'freedom loving' country?

Im sick and tired of Americans having a go at Europeans, we dont like you, get over it for fuck sake! Pretty much the entire world hates you and would like to see another 9/11 deep down. So dont blame us for not liking you, when you call us 'euro-trash' and 'euro-pansies' we can just chant '9/11!' '9/11!' '9/11!' '9/11!' Which is far more provokative. I guess my main point is that Europe is the real home of freedom, freedom for all ethnicity and freedom from not being beaten up on the streets and being called a 'sand ******' freedom for religious practices, freedom to live your life in the way you choose, soon the EU will become united, this is a fact. When the EU is a semi-superstate you will learn to shut the fuck up and stop attacking Europeans, at least we have culture.... What your culture apart from getting fat?

Lol :lol:
Isnt CNN considered... Communist in your 'freedom loving' country?

Im sick and tired of Americans having a go at Europeans, we dont like you, get over it for f--- sake! Pretty much the entire world hates you and would like to see another 9/11 deep down. So dont blame us for not liking you, when you call us 'euro-trash' and 'euro-pansies' we can just chant '9/11!' '9/11!' '9/11!' '9/11!' Which is far more provokative. I guess my main point is that Europe is the real home of freedom, freedom for all ethnicity and freedom from not being beaten up on the streets and being called a 'sand ******' freedom for religious practices, freedom to live your life in the way you choose, soon the EU will become united, this is a fact. When the EU is a semi-superstate you will learn to shut the f--- up and stop attacking Europeans, at least we have culture.... What your culture apart from getting fat?

When the fuck did we ever have a go at Europeans? We never insulted you. You just have been insulting us continuously. I don't really care if the entire world hates us, that is there problem. We didnt call "us" euro-trash. We called you and you specifically euro-trash. No one else in Europe. Simply you. Unless you are now the representative for all of Europe?

Also, I have never seen someone beaten up in the streets in the midwest, nor have I ever heard someone being called a Sand ******. If you have never been here, how would you know this happens, anyways? You are probably some 12 year old kid living in his mothers basement in Detroit. Besides the fact that earlier you said you were "Einundzwanzig jahre alt" (21 years old), and then you edited to be sechsehn jahre alt, or sixteen years old. Yet you have a masters in History? At 16. Fascinating.

Does anyone know the fact that Australia was the first country to win a battle on land against the Germans in North Africa, also we had one of the first wins against the Japanese in Papua New Guinea I think. The thing about Australia in the war was that due to the connections with Britain we did not get too much recognition than we should have, hell I was only told this year Australia had a couple of thousand troops in the D-Day landing, only we were on the British Boats with the English and New Zealanders.

CNN not too bad, BBC is very good, and if anyone has seen the German news channel, DW- that ones really good.

And dont think Australia is like Canada, they seem to follow their own foreign policy, where as Australia under Howard, follows the US foreign policy, the southern version of Canada is New Zealand.

What you have to understand all the Americans in here is that throughout history the US has been seen as allways going after her own interests, also no other country in the world has tried to influence major aspects of other nations like the US, (besides the USSR), alot of people dont like to be told by the US, they cant do that, they have to do this- that is where a lot of the hate for the US comes from. Just im sure its better than having the Russians or the Chinese in that position.

(remember the days when the US followed an isolationist policy, although when it told england to give up its empire it was buisy annexing Hawaii

What you have to understand all the Americans in here is that throughout history the US has been seen as allways going after her own interests, also no other country in the world has tried to influence major aspects of other nations like the US, (besides the USSR), alot of people dont like to be told by the US, they cant do that, they have to do this- that is where a lot of the hate for the US comes from. Just im sure its better than having the Russians or the Chinese in that position.

(remember the days when the US followed an isolationist policy, although when it told england to give up its empire it was buisy annexing Hawaii

And, the main world superpower(s) in any given time are always going after their own interests, so we are not realy any different than the English, French, Spanish, Portugese, German, Soviet, Russian, Japanese, Greek, Roman, and I'm sure I could keep going on about Empires acting in their own interests.

I am a marginal isolationist, meaning that most things sold in America should be made in America 100% like it was until the 1970's when the first major round of globalization came. (The first big globalization was the Atlantic triangle)

I think you guys need to remember, people dislike the president and his ignorant/conservative followers. I think the United States needs a consistant foreign policy. If we are not going to be doing business with communist Cuba than we should not be doing business dealings with Communist China. The reason I think America is better is because I live there, much like you think your respective countries are better. I am nationalistic, but not in a crazed Hellenic Empire way. I also suspect that I have about 5-7 years of maturity over him.

I was a John Edwards supporter in the presidential primaries, however for some reason, John Kerry, my senator was elected. I am a progressive-moderate, meaning I am Progressive on some issues, but convervative on some as well.

Lol :lol:
Isnt CNN considered... Communist in your 'freedom loving' country?

Im sick and tired of Americans having a go at Europeans, we dont like you, get over it for f--- sake! Pretty much the entire world hates you and would like to see another 9/11 deep down. So dont blame us for not liking you, when you call us 'euro-trash' and 'euro-pansies' we can just chant '9/11!' '9/11!' '9/11!' '9/11!' Which is far more provokative. I guess my main point is that Europe is the real home of freedom, freedom for all ethnicity and freedom from not being beaten up on the streets and being called a 'sand ******' freedom for religious practices, freedom to live your life in the way you choose, soon the EU will become united, this is a fact. When the EU is a semi-superstate you will learn to shut the f--- up and stop attacking Europeans, at least we have culture.... What your culture apart from getting fat?

1. You are 12 years old. My mom has gone to Europe several times, and she has friends there. They do not hate America, they hate the president.

2. I am calling YOU eurotrash. NOT EVERYONE in Europoe, but YOU, I am doing this because you do not realize the Americans that you hate are the ones that are as ignorant as you. There have been a few exchange students here [in my school] in the last year and I got along with them fine.

3. Europe is for freedom as long as you are not Jewish in France or Germany, or Turkish in Germany. I disagree with the Sawstica and all it stands for, but at least people have the freedom to still proudly proclaim that they like a stupid misguided belief. Once again, your ignornace shows when you say everyone is racist here, as that is simply not true. About 1/3 of the country is ignorant meaning they are racists. There are racists in Europe too, probobaly even more so because Europe is a Continent of Nation-States where most people share the same ethnicity. In America hardly anyone is just French, just Italian, or just German. I am a mix of Eastern European, and Scottish. I also call Freedom as a way to spend ones money. Taxes are too low here, but in the EU they are WAY to high. Its over 70% for most people in the EU. We also, like it or not, have the freedom to choose what kind of car we have. My parents both drive SUV's and they will be giving me one in 6 months. We Americans also have the freedom to own a gun and go hunting. We have the freedom of speech which allows people to voice their opinions. Of course, I would rather that we didnt have the patriot act and a far right presidency. I am not like the rulers of this country, stop addressing me like one.

4. The EU's military will never compare to that of the United States no matter which way you look at it. Most of our technology is a Generation ahead, but at a very high social cost. If we spent the same amount of money on defense that we did on social programs, everyon would have health insurance, enough food to eat, and adequate law enforcement to protect people.

5. We do not have one culture, we have many. Here are a few: Urban (Mainly hispanic and African American), Suburban (2 working College educated parents), Elite (President bush and his cronies), Farmer (People that live on Farms), and Redneck (Just about any group of people not already mentioned this is the group of people that are ignorant). Lets look statistically and compare the rates of Obesity and overweight people in Europe and the US. Of course, part of the reason why Americans are overweight is because of Fast Food, TV, cars, and computers. From what I can tell by simply googling "Obesity" and "EU" rates have been going up at the same rate as America. I read somewhere that most of Europe is only a few percentage points behind the US in rates of Overweight and Obesity. Once again, I ask you what your BMI is.
Mine is 20.5
http://nhlbisupport.com/bmi/bmicalc.htm

What Culture does europe have? America has Museums, art galleries, writers, artists, and muscians too.

It is very scary to note the number of administration members that were once members of the major corporations that the Bush government has handed contracts out to, Condoleezza rice has an oil tanker named after her. the president of Afghanistan was also an employee for an American oil company that had board members in the Administration and still does.

Do you understand the reasons for the hate of Jews in Europe, it is because of centuries old mistrust and hate, Jews were seen as gypsies and could not be trusted- Jews supported the Soviets, it will not take only a decade to clear this problem it is one that will continue, as will the mistrust between Russia and America, the Arabs and Israel. France of all place is the best example of a state that has done much in trying to separate state from the church, it has a secular tradition that dates back far and it has been trying to continue this, the new French laws in my mind are perfect, for one the crucifix is not supposed to be warn on top of a persons clothing unless they are a Nunn, and those that wear them due to fashion are complete cretins. Europe no doubt is the centre of many customs and cultures that have been passed onto other newer countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the US, and most of Latin America, it is what was the beginning of many new nations and those nations like the US sound acknowledge and cherish that.

Also any Aussies or New Zealanders here that think we should join the EU, as we are “European populations” much like French pacific nations that are counted as being part of the EU but with similar autonomy that we posses, also when England entered the EEC as it was known we were still tied to England legally and only separated in 1986 with the Australia acts of Westminster and every Australian parliament, did NZ have a similar act passed? Plus ASEAN hates us and most don’t want to be labeled Asian just so we can sell some more stuff tariff free to Indonesia etc.

3. Europe is for freedom as long as you are not Jewish in France or Germany, or Turkish in Germany. I disagree with the Sawstica and all it stands for, but at least people have the freedom to still proudly proclaim that they like a stupid misguided belief. Once again, your ignornace shows when you say everyone is racist here, as that is simply not true. About 1/3 of the country is ignorant meaning they are racists. There are racists in Europe too, probobaly even more so because Europe is a Continent of Nation-States where most people share the same ethnicity. In America hardly anyone is just French, just Italian, or just German. I am a mix of Eastern European, and Scottish. I also call Freedom as a way to spend ones money. Taxes are too low here, but in the EU they are WAY to high. Its over 70% for most people in the EU. We also, like it or not, have the freedom to choose what kind of car we have. My parents both drive SUV's and they will be giving me one in 6 months. We Americans also have the freedom to own a gun and go hunting. We have the freedom of speech which allows people to voice their opinions. Of course, I would rather that we didnt have the patriot act and a far right presidency. I am not like the rulers of this country, stop addressing me like one.

4. The EU's military will never compare to that of the United States no matter which way you look at it. Most of our technology is a Generation ahead, but at a very high social cost. If we spent the same amount of money on defense that we did on social programs, everyon would have health insurance, enough food to eat, and adequate law enforcement to protect people.




The difference between cultures in Europe is very much still there, that is why the EU is having such a big problem uniting, and this will most probably lead to some countries leaving- the last elections for EMP's showed right wing conservative nationalist taking a big chunk of power and they are now gaining momentum. The right to own a gun is one that should stay, why not although i would not like to buy a gun if such was the same in Australia, but ask yourself why children can walk into a school and kill other children- and don’t say it has nothing to do with the right to own a gun because it does, there should be gun control there should be greater gun laws so that slaughter of children does not occur. I’m not sure if you heard of Port Arthur, on the island state of Tasmania in Australia, 35 people slaughtered, one a good family friend, why because gun laws were so loose you could walk right through them, the government changed the laws after it happened so it would NEVER happen again, it worked until a student at a uni shot two people, then handgun laws were changed and it is now very hard to own a gun unless you are a member of a gun club for the purpose of shooting for a sport or as a gun collector. The result no major slaughters of innocent people, When I visit my home state I can walk down Hoddle street (as many Vic's may know) and not have to duck for cover as some nut with a military standard weapon takes pot shots at passer byers. If you don’t want to be seen as the typical "American" vote for someone else at the next election.

God save the Queen, but I am an ALP member.

PS: tell your President the people of Australia don’t want his opinion on Australian domestic politics.

It is very scary to note the number of administration members that were once members of the major corporations that the Bush government has handed contracts out to, Condoleezza rice has an oil tanker named after her. the president of Afghanistan was also an employee for an American oil company that had board members in the Administration and still does.

Do you understand the reasons for the hate of Jews in Europe, it is because of centuries old mistrust and hate, Jews were seen as gypsies and could not be trusted- Jews supported the Soviets, it will not take only a decade to clear this problem it is one that will continue, as will the mistrust between Russia and America, the Arabs and Israel. France of all place is the best example of a state that has done much in trying to separate state from the church, it has a secular tradition that dates back far and it has been trying to continue this, the new French laws in my mind are perfect, for one the crucifix is not supposed to be warn on top of a persons clothing unless they are a Nunn, and those that wear them due to fashion are complete cretins. Europe no doubt is the centre of many customs and cultures that have been passed onto other newer countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the US, and most of Latin America, it is what was the beginning of many new nations and those nations like the US sound acknowledge and cherish that.

Also any Aussies or New Zealanders here that think we should join the EU, as we are “European populations” much like French pacific nations that are counted as being part of the EU but with similar autonomy that we posses, also when England entered the EEC as it was known we were still tied to England legally and only separated in 1986 with the Australia acts of Westminster and every Australian parliament, did NZ have a similar act passed? Plus ASEAN hates us and most don’t want to be labeled Asian just so we can sell some more stuff tariff free to Indonesia etc.

The business connections between members of the Bush administration and big business is to put it simply, disgusting. Dick Cheney gave a business contract of several billion dollars to his former company, to which he still had millions of dollars worth of stock options too. He also lied about helping them, but hey, what can you expect, he's a neo-conservative, which means he wants to shift all tax burden away from the rich and corporations. A little stat I saw somewhere, was that the average member of the Bush Administration got $42,000 in tax cuts last year, $42,000 also happens to be the median income of an American worker.

I thought the anti-semitism in Europe was because of arabs that lived there went after the Jews because of the whole Israel thing. Now I can see the connection between rabid anti-Americanism (Hellenic Empire) and Anti-Semitism. Every Government should be secular, there is no way church and state should be together.

You New Zealanders and Aussies are in a tough position because you are predominantly european in descent, but you seem to be located rather far away. Maybe a big big ship could tow you two guys to the North Sea, but it would be tough to pull Australia through Cape Horn.

3. Europe is for freedom as long as you are not Jewish in France or Germany, or Turkish in Germany. I disagree with the Sawstica and all it stands for, but at least people have the freedom to still proudly proclaim that they like a stupid misguided belief. Once again, your ignornace shows when you say everyone is racist here, as that is simply not true. About 1/3 of the country is ignorant meaning they are racists. There are racists in Europe too, probobaly even more so because Europe is a Continent of Nation-States where most people share the same ethnicity. In America hardly anyone is just French, just Italian, or just German. I am a mix of Eastern European, and Scottish. I also call Freedom as a way to spend ones money. Taxes are too low here, but in the EU they are WAY to high. Its over 70% for most people in the EU. We also, like it or not, have the freedom to choose what kind of car we have. My parents both drive SUV's and they will be giving me one in 6 months. We Americans also have the freedom to own a gun and go hunting. We have the freedom of speech which allows people to voice their opinions. Of course, I would rather that we didnt have the patriot act and a far right presidency. I am not like the rulers of this country, stop addressing me like one.

4. The EU's military will never compare to that of the United States no matter which way you look at it. Most of our technology is a Generation ahead, but at a very high social cost. If we spent the same amount of money on defense that we did on social programs, everyon would have health insurance, enough food to eat, and adequate law enforcement to protect people.




The difference between cultures in Europe is very much still there, that is why the EU is having such a big problem uniting, and this will most probably lead to some countries leaving- the last elections for EMP's showed right wing conservative nationalist taking a big chunk of power and they are now gaining momentum. The right to own a gun is one that should stay, why not although i would not like to buy a gun if such was the same in Australia, but ask yourself why children can walk into a school and kill other children- and don’t say it has nothing to do with the right to own a gun because it does, there should be gun control there should be greater gun laws so that slaughter of children does not occur. I’m not sure if you heard of Port Arthur, on the island state of Tasmania in Australia, 35 people slaughtered, one a good family friend, why because gun laws were so loose you could walk right through them, the government changed the laws after it happened so it would NEVER happen again, it worked until a student at a uni shot two people, then handgun laws were changed and it is now very hard to own a gun unless you are a member of a gun club for the purpose of shooting for a sport or as a gun collector. The result no major slaughters of innocent people, When I visit my home state I can walk down Hoddle street (as many Vic's may know) and not have to duck for cover as some nut with a military standard weapon takes pot shots at passer byers. If you don’t want to be seen as the typical "American" vote for someone else at the next election.

God save the Queen, but I am an ALP member.

PS: tell your President the people of Australia don’t want his opinion on Australian domestic politics.

My opinion is that when someone acts out through violence they would have found out a way to use a gun to commit the crime no matter what. I dont think tightening gun laws will do much to stop violent crimes like that. If someone is going to commit a crime with a gun they will join a club or go hunting so they will own one, because often people that go on shooting rampages do not just think up the plan, they spend months planning. As demonstrated here: http://www.indystar.com/articles/8/152778-5438-010.html

I dont want the president either. I never wanted him. I read what he was elected under, and well, you can read it for yourself. Print it out, read it before bed, and highlight all the parts you disagree with.

We believe the environment is best served by individuals working in their own best interest.
We Oppose the theory of global warming and the Kyoto Agreement
EPA management of Texas’ air quality issues {My note, that they have the worst air in the country, highest lung cancer and asthma rates}
No fault divorce laws have caused untold hardships on American families, by reducing their standard of living, and by harming the emotional and physical well–being of children. It has contributed to an increase in government assistance of all kinds. We call upon the Texas Legislature to rescind no–fault divorce laws.
The Party believes that the practice of sodomy tears at the fabric of society, contributes to the breakdown of the family unit, and leads to the spread of dangerous, communicable diseases. Homosexual behavior is contrary to the fundamental, unchanging truths that have been ordained by God, recognized by our country’s founders, and shared by the majority of Texans. Homosexuality must not be presented as an acceptable “alternative” lifestyle in our public education and policy, nor should “family” be redefined to include homosexual “couples.” We are opposed to any granting of special legal entitlements, recognition, or privileges including, but not limited to, marriage between persons of the same sex, custody of children by homosexuals, homosexual partner insurance or retirement benefits. We oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values.


http://www.rlctx.org/RLCTX/Texas%20Republican%20Party%20Platform%202000.htm

3. Europe is for freedom as long as you are not Jewish in France or Germany, or Turkish in Germany. I disagree with the Sawstica and all it stands for, but at least people have the freedom to still proudly proclaim that they like a stupid misguided belief. Once again, your ignornace shows when you say everyone is racist here, as that is simply not true. About 1/3 of the country is ignorant meaning they are racists. There are racists in Europe too, probobaly even more so because Europe is a Continent of Nation-States where most people share the same ethnicity. In America hardly anyone is just French, just Italian, or just German. I am a mix of Eastern European, and Scottish. I also call Freedom as a way to spend ones money. Taxes are too low here, but in the EU they are WAY to high. Its over 70% for most people in the EU. We also, like it or not, have the freedom to choose what kind of car we have. My parents both drive SUV's and they will be giving me one in 6 months. We Americans also have the freedom to own a gun and go hunting. We have the freedom of speech which allows people to voice their opinions. Of course, I would rather that we didnt have the patriot act and a far right presidency. I am not like the rulers of this country, stop addressing me like one.

4. The EU's military will never compare to that of the United States no matter which way you look at it. Most of our technology is a Generation ahead, but at a very high social cost. If we spent the same amount of money on defense that we did on social programs, everyon would have health insurance, enough food to eat, and adequate law enforcement to protect people.




The difference between cultures in Europe is very much still there, that is why the EU is having such a big problem uniting, and this will most probably lead to some countries leaving- the last elections for EMP's showed right wing conservative nationalist taking a big chunk of power and they are now gaining momentum. The right to own a gun is one that should stay, why not although i would not like to buy a gun if such was the same in Australia, but ask yourself why children can walk into a school and kill other children- and don’t say it has nothing to do with the right to own a gun because it does, there should be gun control there should be greater gun laws so that slaughter of children does not occur. I’m not sure if you heard of Port Arthur, on the island state of Tasmania in Australia, 35 people slaughtered, one a good family friend, why because gun laws were so loose you could walk right through them, the government changed the laws after it happened so it would NEVER happen again, it worked until a student at a uni shot two people, then handgun laws were changed and it is now very hard to own a gun unless you are a member of a gun club for the purpose of shooting for a sport or as a gun collector. The result no major slaughters of innocent people, When I visit my home state I can walk down Hoddle street (as many Vic's may know) and not have to duck for cover as some nut with a military standard weapon takes pot shots at passer byers. If you don’t want to be seen as the typical "American" vote for someone else at the next election.

God save the Queen, but I am an ALP member.

PS: tell your President the people of Australia don’t want his opinion on Australian domestic politics.

My opinion is that when someone acts out through violence they would have found out a way to use a gun to commit the crime no matter what. I dont think tightening gun laws will do much to stop violent crimes like that. If someone is going to commit a crime with a gun they will join a club or go hunting so they will own one, because often people that go on shooting rampages do not just think up the plan, they spend months planning. As demonstrated here: http://www.indystar.com/articles/8/152778-5438-010.html

I dont want the president either. I never wanted him. I read what he was elected under, and well, you can read it for yourself. Print it out, read it before bed, and highlight all the parts you disagree with.

We believe the environment is best served by individuals working in their own best interest.
We Oppose the theory of global warming and the Kyoto Agreement
EPA management of Texas’ air quality issues {My note, that they have the worst air in the country, highest lung cancer and asthma rates}
No fault divorce laws have caused untold hardships on American families, by reducing their standard of living, and by harming the emotional and physical well–being of children. It has contributed to an increase in government assistance of all kinds. We call upon the Texas Legislature to rescind no–fault divorce laws.
The Party believes that the practice of sodomy tears at the fabric of society, contributes to the breakdown of the family unit, and leads to the spread of dangerous, communicable diseases. Homosexual behavior is contrary to the fundamental, unchanging truths that have been ordained by God, recognized by our country’s founders, and shared by the majority of Texans. Homosexuality must not be presented as an acceptable “alternative” lifestyle in our public education and policy, nor should “family” be redefined to include homosexual “couples.” We are opposed to any granting of special legal entitlements, recognition, or privileges including, but not limited to, marriage between persons of the same sex, custody of children by homosexuals, homosexual partner insurance or retirement benefits. We oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values.


http://www.rlctx.org/RLCTX/Texas%20Republican%20Party%20Platform%202000.htm