NationStates Jolt Archive

A restorative step: first Type 45 launched

After several years in the works, set-back by the shaking changes in the very nature of the United Kingdom and then hastened anew by new PM John Bull's increased defence spends in a newly hostile world, the Type 45 Destroyer programme bore fruit at last. Even if it had cost in the order of three hundred million pounds, and even if it did boast more "provision for" than actual systems.

From its BAE Systems-lead works on the Clyde, Her Majestey's Ship Daring carried a proud nation's restored hopes back on to waves once ruled from London.

"Many thought, after the mass emigration and Britain's decline in the political, economic, and industrial world, that we could not do it, that we had resigned our little island to the ebb and flow of global tides. Today we make a clear statement of our intent as a civilised nation with a place on the world stage."

This Prime Minister was one for the dramatic, there was no doubting that.

Some key features of the Type 45 Class Air Defence Destroyer include the impressive Principle Anti-Air Missile System with its 48xAster15 and Aster30 missiles and the multi-purpose Sampson radar, said to be world’s most advanced. This makes the Type 45 able to deal with supersonic, stealthy, sea-skimming or plunging anti-ship missiles fired in salvos and approaching from several directions at once.

The 4.5” (114mm) Mark 8 Mod 1 gun is a proven weapon with various potential applications. Surface Ship Torpedo Defence System is integrated.
On top of this is built-in provision for torpedo launch systems, surface-to-surface guided weapons, and a VLS cruise-missile capacity.

Merlin or Lynx helicopter may operate from the formidable vessel's 5,800 tonnes (light; 7,450 deep load), and the Type 45 can transport and support up to 60 Royal Marines on top of a 190 crew complement.

With a top speed in the order of 29 knots and range of 7,000 nautical miles at 18 knots, the big warship class is certainly no slouch.

Much as was initially planned, and as if disregarding so much change, the intended run remains twelve vessels, with three already under construction (or launched) and three more contracted primarily to BAE.


A RN Type 45 Air Defence Destroyer (http://www.armedforces.co.uk/navy/listings/type45a2.jpg)

Newly appointed First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Brendan Whyte has made his name already, reported The Times. Appearing at Daring's commissioning, Whyte, 41 of Carlisle and formerly little known, caused an unexpected stir when he announced that, on top of the surprisingly rapid completion of the navy's first Type 45 would shortly come the launch of HMS Astute, the first and name ship of at least three attack submarines.

Of course that the vessel was under construction at Barrow was no news, but Whyte's assertion that she is, "almost complete" was quite unexpected. If he does nothing else in his career (and some point out that he hasn't yet done anything himself, in truth) Queen Elizabeth III's first First Sea Lord may well be remembered as the man on top during the Royal Navy's great resurgence.

how much will it cost.

-Rockhound

The first Type 45 destroyer cost in the order of GBP 300 million (over US$540million) and has not yet received all of its possible final fittings.

The cost of the Astute Class has not yet been explained, though the Trafalgar Class vessels upon which the design is based cost again around £300 million a piece.

-From MoD reports.

[A -perhaps final- bump]

Admiralty announces modification to Type 45s, sale of Type 42s

Following the launch of HMS Daring it has been finally confirmed that following ships of the Type 45 destroyer class shall mount new 155mm guns in place of the 114mm weapon.

It is not known whether Daring will receive a re-fit. The ship was at one time planned to be even less capable, with most of its potential systems being omitted or substituted by old models. In the end the ship was made helicopter capable and did receive a modern sonar suite, but the Mark 8 Mod 1 4.5" (114mm) gun system was not exchanged during construction.

With the approach of Her Majesty's Ships Dauntless and Diamond's entry into service, the Royal Navy's long-serving Type 42 Class Destroyers are due for decommissioning. The eleven surviving vessels are now being offered for sale and the government is ready to receive interest.

The vessels, some of which served in the Falklands War and in the Persian Gulf, are armed with twin Sea Dart missile launchers, a 114mm gun, 20mm close range guns, and Vulcan Phalanx CIWS, as well as anti-submarine torpedoes and decoy launchers. Their Lynx Mk 8 helicopters carry Sea Skua anti-ship missiles, Stingray anti-submarine torpedoes, Mk 11 depth charges, and machineguns, making them a deadly tool even today. The modern value of the roughly five-thousand-tonne vessels has not yet been officially discussed.

The Government of the Federation of Ynys is interrested in procurring several of the type 42 distroyers. Is it possible to have an estimate of their costs?

John Every
Ministry of Defence

The exact worth of the Type 42s, in sterling terms, is not absolutely clear, though the Batch 1 and 2 vessels (Cardiff, Newcastle, Glasgow, Exeter, Southampton, Nottingham, Liverpool) will be slightly cheaper than the larger and slightly more modern Batch 3 (Manchester, Gloucester, Edinburgh, and York).

It has been stated that London may be willing to sell Batch 1 and 2 vessels for significantly less than £50million a piece. Batch 3 may be a few million more, especially in the short term, as the construction run of the Type 45 replacements is not yet complete. The British government is quite willing to negotiate with its opposites in Ynys, which appears to be a fairly like minded and none-threatening state.

(As an aside, I am making a modest attempt to revitalise The Commonwealth of Nations, and wonder if Ynys might be at all interested. It doesn't require moving to my all but empty region or anything binding, but is just meant to improve relations between British-linked states. I have a thread lying about somewhere if you're at all interested, and think Ynys might qualify for membership.)

We are pleased by the pricing policy of your government, and commit ourselfs to the following order:

Three Batch Two vessels
Two Batch Three Vessels

And places a future order on one type 45 distroyer once production commences.

A payment of £250 million sterling will be made to your govenment once the order has been confirmed.

The payment on the type 45 will be made once the order is recived by my nation.

We offer our friendship to the Federation of Britain.

(occ i'll try and track down that thread. I too am interested in creating a link between british-linked nations, although i am not yet willing to commit to your region, it will be interresting to to see how this could develop).

John Every
Ministry of Defence

PM John Bull has already expressed his pleasure at the smooth nature of negotations thus far, and it appears that the deal to transfer five Type 42 destroyers to Ynys is about to go through.

Her Majesty's Ships Exeter, Southampton and Nottingham of Batch 2 and Manchester and Gloucester of Batch 3 are being decommissioned from Royal Navy service. The destroyers shall be sailed on skeleton crews to Ynys, under escort from the Type 45 Class HMS Daring and the Assault Ship HMS Ocean, aboard which the crews shall return home.

With two Type 45s in the late stages of construction for the Royal Navy, it is expect that the fourth vessel of the class to be laid down, two months from now, shall be built for Ynys. As the vessel is likely to cost around £300million (though operational costs may actually be lower than those of the less automated Type 42s), BAe Systems, which is to be the primary contractor lest the Ynys government strongly object, shall be open to consultation on the exact make-up of the ship. That is to say, many systems are optional, and may be included, deleted, replaced by Type 42-era equivalents, or left out with potential for later inclusion.

(Regarding the Commonwealth: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=335262 As yet precious little has happened, but then that's The Commonwealth for you :) )

HMS's Dauntless, Diamond launched
-fourth Type 45 to be laid down, details unconfirmed

(In other words, Ynys, do you still wish to acquire a Type 45?)

Future carrier programme becomes practical reality

Long under consideration, the UK's future carrier programme has finally begun in earnest with steel cutting now underway for HMS Queen Elizabeth, which is to be the first of two vessels of the Queen Elizabeth III Class. Work on HMS Prince of Wales should begin next year.

The QEIII Class carriers shall displace over 60,000 tonnes, a total boosted by the determination of the Bull government to reinstate some features previously axed under budget constraints. These include the armouring of the ships' sides and bulkheads, the mounting of Close In Weapons Systems (believed to be an evolved Goalkeeper), and the inclusion of 2x16-cell Aster SAM systems. Both weapons systems mentioned were originally likely only to by omitted, with the capacity for their inclusion being retained, but the British Industrial Democratic government has refused to cut corners in a hostile world.
The high degree of automation in these hyper-modern vessels means that little more than 1,200 men and women -air crew included- shall typically sail on each carrier. With 400km range air search radar, heavy armour, and highly modern, multi-layer self defence weapons as well as an air wing set to include Sea Harrier 3 multi-role jets and Merlin helicopters -including Maritime-Surveillance-and-Control (MASC) aircraft- the QEIIIs are sure to be worthy of the proud naval tradition of the British isles. With a better than 25 knot top speed and ten thousand nautical mile endurance (at 15 knots) inspite of conventional powering, the ships shall defend freedom far and wide for decades to come.

HMS Duncan launched, Dragon laid down
-Dauntless, Diamond complete sea trials with success.

We'll take 20 of the Type 45s for $ 10.8 Billion. We're also keen to see how the carrier program develops.

OOCnice ship :D



We would be interested in making a partnership with the British Federation concerning the production of ships. You can check out our Type 44 HERE: http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=351250

It has been suggested to Sevaris that it may be favourable to arrange for the construction of the twenty air defence destroyers to occur in that nation, as British shipyards are already working at full capacity to produce destroyers, carriers, and submarines for the Royal Navy.

It would of course be quite possible to open new slips, which is favoured by some in the UK, but individual contractors such as BAe are willing to consider working with local Sevaris firms at shipyards there, should sufficient facilities already exist. This would also allow incorporation of local systems should they be desired, perhaps for purposes of uniformity.
It should be noted that the stated costs for Type 45 destroyers would likely be higher for export, and that they constitute fairly basic configurations with some options absent. Expenses could be considerably higher than US$10.8bln, especially if the work is carried out in British yards, for export.

The Democratic Republic of New Kyoto City wishes to purchase a pair of Batch 3 Type 42's at 50 million USD/ship. Half will be paid upon confirmation and half upon arrival at . New Kyoto shall provide transport for the crews to return home.

The government of New Kyoto City has been politely informed that the US dollar is worth significantly less than the pound sterling, and that as such the remaining Type 42 Batch 3 vessels (currently Her Majesty's Ships Edinburgh (D97) and York (D98)) are valued at rather more than USD 50 million a piece. The true value is estimated to be around $92 million, which equates to roughly £50 million.

If a fee approaching this figure can be delivered then the sale to New Kyoto City of D97 and D98 may yet be completed.

CVF programme continues to evolve- Bull speaks of reclaiming the waves for Britannia

With the UK economy still struggling to recover the strength it enjoyed before PM Bull's British Industrial Democratic Party re-nationalised everything from British Rail to the Royal Mail, taking BAe, Rolls Royce, and all manner of other companies with them, some critics suppose that Bull is merely trying to focus the electorate on demons of some other than economic nature.

It is maintained by Downing Street that the economy will pick up, and soon, citing the massive export success of the entire arms industry since its nationalisation and in a large part its eventual re-privatisation. Challenger 2E won the series' largest ever export order, Nimrod's troubled AEW aircraft -reactivated under Bull- entered service at home and abroad, and the always well sold Hawk gained a new lease of export life in its latest LIFT configuration. Now with the added possibility of significant British input on foreign warship programmes, London is confident of itself and the whole nation's faith in British industry is at a high.

It is with these things in mind that George John-Wavelly, Minister for Defence, has spoken of, "speculative research programmes" towards several ends.

One of these is the potential expansion of the Queen Elizabeth III Class, currently slated to comprise two vessels as was the preliminary plan for the then pre-design CVF of before Bull's government. Replacing three much smaller Invincible Class light carriers, recent speculation has pointed to three, four, or even five new hulls. Given the more than three times greater displacement, heavy armouring, larger air wing, and more advanced machinery, radar, communications, and weapons, and the signature reduction technology of the QEIIIs it was thought highly unlikely that such totals would be seen, but now a class three or four strong seems almost probable.
Chief of Defence Staff General Sir Michael Boucher said that, "We had four and five fleet carriers before, in the jet age, and seriously considered a sixth- I don't see why three or four should be dismissed today. After all, there's a thousand Soviet Unions knocking at the door, today, and ten thousand threats to our territories and far-flung allies and Commonwealth family members."
True, the modern ships are likely to be more expensive, but the fifties, sixties, and seventies saw highly expensive update programmes and wasteful schemes that came to nothing. The long-life and high efficiency of the current programmes and the BID commitment to seeing them through without wasting resources on fanciful tangents or costly interim upgrades- the Invincibles will serve on as is until such time as the first QEIIIs become available- make for significant cost savings that may just allow the broadening of this class.

The second programme, meanwhile, is thought to be a replacement for Sea Harrier 3 (that being the chosen strike/fighter aircraft to arm the first QEIII) in alternative to the JSF programme from which Britain withdrew long ago. The surprising truth may be a new regard of the old Hawker Siddeley P.1154 project, which could -some say should- have yielded the world's first supersonic vertical take-off aircraft in the mid/late 1960s.

Our most sincere apologies for the confusion. New Kyoto accepts the price asked, conditions are as before.

Her Majesty's Ships Edinburgh (D97) and York (D98) may today be seen leaving British waters, probably for the last time, flying their paying-off pennants and departing Royal Navy service. Bound for New Kyoto City, the long serving destroyers have enjoyed great service with the RN, and now have the chance to fight on -presumably under new names- far abroad.

Edinburgh was extensively re-fitted in 1990, giving her a new bow mounting Phalanx CIWS. The Fortress of the Sea, as she is known, was the largest of her class.
York, which carried the motto Bon Espoir (Good Hope), and was the last of the class to be constructed.

The success experienced in selling-off RN warships has done much for public and governmental confidence in the new and ambitious spending plans for the future of the navy.

British diplomats and businessmen tour foreign states, 'market-research' carried out.

With aims apparently at least two fold, government officials and representatives of firms such as BAe and related companies like Hawker Siddeley have been seeking foreign interest in a number of existing or potential British assets and enterprises.

It appears that the government is looking for potential buyers for its three Invincible Class light carriers, Invincible, Illustrious and Ark Royal, which are set to be withdrawn one by one over the next four to eight years as Queen Elizabeth III carriers begin to enter RN service. While these carriers -meant to patrol the North Atlantic against Soviet submarines- are no longer sufficient to meet British needs, it is hoped that they might have a place in smaller or poorer navies, or where their specific ASW task remains the major priority.

On a related matter, governments have been felt-out on the issue of future carrier-borne aircraft. The RN is awaiting a decision from London on what exactly is to replace Sea Harrier when the second QEIII enters service (the first is currently expecting to be given all two dozen Sea Harriers currently serving aboard the Invincibles), and contenders are thought to be a navalised EFA-2000 Eurofighter Typhoon (likely to be called Sea Typhoon) and a so called, "Super Harrier" perhaps resulting in part from the cancelled Hawker Siddeley P.1154. This would presumably be a supersonic VTOL aircraft, likely incorporating some modern signature reduction technology.

It appears that Britain is hesitant to commit to the expense of navalising Typhoon or of developing a new multi-role aircraft simply for its own carrier force, and would like to be reasonably confident of healthy export orders for either a Sea Typhoon or Super Harrier before going ahead. It appears that the main difference between capabilities of the two aircraft would be in Typhoons potentially greater payload carrying ability on the one hand, and P.1154/Super Harrier's VTOL capability on the other- this may mean that the latter aircraft could operate from any Invincibles exported, should the buyer be able to afford the expense.

Though the United African Republic, torn by war and AIDS, is in no position to lead the British on over any interest on new generation carrier aircraft, the diplomats will find in Lusaka some interest in the Invincibles, as well as remaining Type 42s.
The Republic already flies a small number of Harrier aircraft, and the poor state of the tiny Lusakan navy and the ease with which imperialist forces are believed to repeatedly penetrate the nation's waters are causes for concern in New Lusaka City.
President Igomo's interest is officially registered.

Reports this week indicate the presence in the UAR Lusaka of British government and military officials and private contractors, apparently surveying port and other facilities, and meeting with Republican officials. Based on some of the figures thought to have travelled to Africa, it is thought that discussions may include the possibility of eventual transfer of Type 42 air defence destroyers, Invincible VSTOL carriers, and possibly deals involving VC-10, Canberra, and Hawk LIFT aircraft amongst others.

The Armed Republic of Modern Texas would be interested in the remaining Type 42 destroyers and would also be interested in ordering future Type 45 destroyers. The Republic extends an invitation to the British Federation to visit the Republic in hopes of establishing diplomatic and economic ties. The invitation is open and available at your convenience.

Respectfully,
Buzz Ferriday
President
The Armed Republic of Modern Texas

[tag]

(In light of Lusaka's adoption of a more realistic population standard, it is unlikely that the UARL shall pursue purchase of an Invincible Class vessel. Smaller maritime contracts have not as yet been ruled out.)

Royal Navy’s future takes shape
RAF tries to point-out its part in proceedings, plays second-fiddle to big ships

After much deliberation and several dead ends, the Royal Navy’s future carrier programme is finally taking shape. There are in future to be four carriers in service, all variants of the Queen Elizabeth III Class, the name-ship of which has already been laid-down on the Firth of Forth. Though the carriers will appear in two forms according to plans put forward by two originally competing teams from Thales UK and BAe, the designs will now be revised to include a greater degree of commonality, and the contractors shall work together rather than in competition. This, PM Bull’s government insists, is a good, strong system rather than a fundamentally terrible idea and a waste of time.

It now appears that all four carriers shall be fitted with ramps rather than catapults, which is part of some painfully needed cost-cutting measures long demanded by opposition parties and several rebels within the British Industrial Democratic Party who accuse Bull of behaving like a free-spending cad.
Typhoon shall not now be navalised, a project that would certainly have involved significant expense and was in competition with various Harrier upgrade proposals since Bull cancelled British involvement in the JSF project. Some observers feared that the PM would back the development of a Super Harrier and of the proposed Sea Typhoon. This possibility seen as quite outlandishly expensive given that the two aircraft would be produced only in numbers enough to arm four mid-size carriers and, in Harrier’s case, to jostle for RAF space along side Jaguar and Tornado attack planes.

Now it has been announced that, while Typhoon shall go on to serve as the UK’s primary interceptor and air superiority fighter with the RAF, Harrier is destined for a reincarnation as both strike aircraft and naval air defence fighter for the new century.
As the QEIIIs rely on rotary-wing aircraft for anti-submarine warfare, airborne ship to ship and ship to shore transport, and electronic surveillance and control (with Merlin MASC), it is said that the omission of catapults shall be possible and even practical, thanks to evolved Harrier. Some critics worry that a rotary-wing AWE aircraft as Merlin may be inferior to alternatives in its limited ceiling for example, but unless BID performs an historic U-turn in policy and buys Osprey tilt rotors from the US, it appears that Merlin MASC shall indeed be deployed on Her Majesty’s Ships Queen Elizabeth, Prince of Wales, Glorious and Courageous.

BAe Hawker-Siddeley Harrier IV/Sea Harrier 4 Super Harrier
To be produced in two versions, this Super Harrier will serve the RAF and RN as multi-role strike fighter, the main difference between the two versions being that Sea Harrier 4 shall mount navigational systems designed for operation at sea. It is possible that Harrier IV may be operated from carriers as a ground-attack aircraft, though it is apparently planned to give Sea Harrier 4 the same attack capabilities. Super Harrier is meant to be faster, more survivable, and better armed than are its predecessors. Much looks likely to be achieved towards each of these ends, though many improvements only go so far. Survivability will be improved by signature reduction technologies that should make Super Harrier harder to detect and attack. The shielding of the beacons Harrier called intakes is one example of this, but the possibility of external stores carriage will mean that any signature reduction features will have fairly concrete limits. It appears that a last minute requirement for at least some internal capacity has bumped-up the aircraft’s price tag and perhaps its weight.
Still, the improvements in this respect are said to be significant, and are certainly mirrored in any progress they make by other advances towards the stated requirements.
Technical Data
Primary changes in Super Harrier are:
-Larger than Harrier dimensions
-More powerful engine giving supersonic speed
-Altered but still familiar airframe shape to accommodate supersonic operation and signature-reduction
-Construction from new materials to prolong life, decrease weight, and provide some radar absorption
-Shielding of intakes in pursuit of further detection avoidance
-Revision of undercarriage and weapons stowage to facilitate carrier landing with heavier loads
-More modern avionics and ability to deploy new weapons
Approximate dimensions/weights are:
-8.65m span
-17.6m length
-3.75m height
-9,180kg empty weight
-19,120kg maximum take-off weight
Power and performance:
-BAe Systems Bristol Siddeley 2000 vectored thrust engine
-18,150kg thrust
-Mach 1.75 maximum speed at altitude, Mach 1.15 at sea level with external stores
-Mach 1.1 cruise speed
-Range in excess of 3,000km
-Three hour loiter 100 nautical miles from base is achievable
Armament:
-27mm Mauser cannon integral
-Internal bays with four pylons
-Wingtip points for two AIM-132 ASRAAM
-Two under-wing pylons may be fitted to hardpoints
-Air-to-air weapons deployable include AIM-132 ASRAAM and Meteor
-Maximum air-to-air payload is six Meteor and two ASRAAM, or four Meteor with maximum signature-reduction profile
-Air-to-ground weapons deployable include Brimstone AGM, BL755 cluster bombs, Paveway II laser and satellite guided bombs, 1,000lb and 540lb General Purpose unguided bombs, CRV-7 unguided rockets
-Bombs may be carried internally, but rocket-pods require external mounting. No ground-attack munitions are designed for carriage on wingtips
-Sea Eagle is the primary anti-ship missile likely to be carried by Sea Harrier 4 and potentially by Harrier IV, and would be mounted under-wing
Image (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/Chivtv/NS1/superharrier.jpg)

[For interest in the emerging shape of the RN et cetera ]

First QEIII Class takes shape against skyline as Super Harrier mock-up displayed at Farnborough...

Fourth carrier in trouble as case is put for third Albion Class assault ship

[Nb! The British Federation is now part of a closed RP community known as A Modern World, and as such those outside said community need not pay attention to these announcements... ah, except for that one... and that... and that]

Seventh and eight Daring Class destroyers laid-down

With fully half of the planned strength of twelve new air defence destroyers afloat and in commission, remaining Type 42 warships are being finally withdrawn. The Queen Elizabeth III Class aircraft carrier run continues with work under way towards the completion of Glorious while Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales ride the waves alone- all three Invincibles have now begun the march to decommission. The possibility of a fourth carrier, Courageous remains still a matter of contention, with a strong lobby calling for another Albion Class assault ship in her place and a resistance citing growing French hostility and maritime strength as requiring of a fourth carrier to protect British maritime superiority.

(Just a bump for the interest of any passing members of the MW group)

OOC: SO now you have joined this group, just how much interaction do you have overall with the rest of Nationstates. Does, for instance, your nation still export equipment to normal nations?

OOC: You know, I'm not really sure. On the one hand I did go to the trouble of gathering a reasonable chunk of data that it seems a shame to waste, but on the other, I'm not sure I can be bothered, heh.
I don't think I'll pay such close attention to it anymore, but if people really want to get their hands on British equipment from a British source, I suppose I could RP a few deals that don't have to effect the MW. It's not like they actually change my economic rating or anything.

OOC: Yeah, shame really. I was going to actually bid for shares in the British military industry, but if thats not possible :S.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/Chivtv/NS1/John20Bull.jpg
Prime Minister John Bull features in new recruitment posters

British Industrial Democratic Party Defence Minister George John-Wavelly today gave an official form to lately increased discussion on the future of the Royal Navy, one of history’s most renowned military institutions. Responding to a number of new conditions, the government has decided to reconfigure and increase the scale of on-going restructuring and expansion of the navy.

“For some time” said John-Wavelly, “the United Kingdom has controlled armed forces operational in a greatly reduced responsibility. We have sailed friendly, local waters and deployed forces against, in all honesty, quite minor enemies created of Serbia, Iraq, and tiny third-world states. Today we face radically different threats that, unlike some of our past opposition, require no hype or spin to make them seem serious. We must recognise our position in a modern world full of ambitious peoples and strong leaderships. Our impending role in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation with its inherent expectations on international security, and especially the fact that we are likely to be the only member state in this part of the world, is a central factor in re-working of our defence plans. Rapid alterations in the European political climate are manifest in military issues such as the launching of French battleships obeying a none-democratic leadership and tangible hostility arising in Eastern Europe. Far afield we can no longer expect our over-stretched allies to protect British interests and the freedom of the world as well as their own specific concerns. Britannia must dust off her trident and shield and step forward to protect her own and others who share her ideals.”

The Defence Minister’s speech was somewhat long-winded and at times a little dramatic, but he would hold that this was totally appropriate given the truly historic nature of the changes he was sharing.

“...As recently as the nineteen seventies, the Royal Navy counted significantly above seventy thousand personnel, and before this government the total had sunk to little more than forty thousand. Since the British Industrial Democratic Party’s victory at the last general election just a few short years ago, we have seen a rise of just a few percent in those numbers, coupled with the restoration of previously restricted programmes so basic as ordinary defence systems aboard British warships. Some called myself and the Prime Minister a pair of hawks for giving British servicemen the equipment they sought for self protection, but they have seen that it has not been used to carry war around the world. In fact we have brought hundreds of servicemen and women home from abroad.

“Now we must continue to build on our early gains. Royal Navy recruitment is due to pass fifty thousand at the end of this year, seeking a final total in the order of sixty thousand to be achieved some months down the line. This represents, I feel, a realistic and effective service significantly greater than the one that has struggled hard to serve our ideals. It will be noticeably and really larger than the recent force, and yet still below levels the nation proved able to support just a generation ago, calling for about one in every thousand Britons to serve in the navy. Manpower totals are, understandably, not yet set in stone, and may be influenced by bettering or worsening of the international climate.

“Major fleet assets in the Royal Navy of tomorrow are to include the twelve Daring Class destroyers of which more than half are already afloat. It may yet become necessary to expand the impressive class still further, perhaps at the expense of older frigates, of which we presently have twenty.

“The Astute Class nuclear submarine target is also a dozen hulls, with three already operational and improving the attacking ability of our fleets.

“Our four ballistic missile submarines remain necessary to deter the nuclear ambitions of any number of powerful nations. The fall of Bonstock in Asia has, far from bringing security to the world, highlighted the still real nature of the rift between the democracy of Britain, North America, and India, and the militarist systems in place in China and elsewhere.

“At the heart of recent speculation has been the conflict between lobbies for expansion of the carrier force on one hand, and assault ship strength on the other. It has been known that the three small Invincible Class carriers were to be replaced by larger Queen Elizabeth III Class vessels, variants on the design previously intended to yield just two hulls. The debate over whether BID should increase the class to three or four hulls has been finally settled, which is the major bit of news that I have for you, ah, today. I can tell you that there will be three QEIII Class carriers, the currently building Glorious being the last. Ah, the helicopter carrier Ocean shall be retained, and the Bay Class and Albion Class vessels will remain in their current numbers. The major addition in lieu of a fourth carrier shall be Her Majesty’s Ship Courageous, a battleship ordered to secure Britain’s position with the maritime elite. She will be the UK’s first battleship since Vanguard was scrapped almost fifty years ago.”

The Defence Minister’s announcement was quickly followed by yet more speculation, this time about the specification and genealogy of the new battleship and about whether it is intended as a counter to the French Cherbourgs. The current belief is that Courageous will owe at least something to the Lion plans from the immediate post-WWII period. Far north of the Defence Minister as he made his London address, materials were already being gathered for the construction of a ship that might have been anything from forty to seventy thousand tonnes in design.

Hindustan is glad to see the Royal Navy being built up again, offering a deterrant to the French. After all, with a few battleships up their sleeve, the new French Navy could take on the entire Hindustani seagoing flotilla and probably come out on top.

And Marsailles is only a short trip, via the Suez canal, from the west coast of India.

The HN would probably be extremely interested in aquiring the surplus vessels to add to its feeble seagoing naval strength. A few Type 42s would go a long way towards improving the HN's capabilities. After all, the national shipyards (the biggest ones are located in Diu) produce mostly merchant ships, AIP attack submarines, and corvettes. The occasional frigate comes out once and a while, but the construction yards rarely deal with a naval order of much more than 5,000 tons displacement.

In conclusion, the Hindustani government would very much like to enter into negotiations with John Bull's officials concerning the aquisition of up to four Type 42 vessels.

These would ideally be without their British weaponry, in order to more easily install systems found in the Hindustani navy, such as the AS. 117 anti-ship missile, the Lovitar-S naval SAM system, Mk. 3 CIWS guns (similar to the Kashtan system), and RBU-6000 ASW rockets.

With the remaining Type 42s recently withdrawn from RN service, the BID government is keen to make a sale of them.

The remaining vessels are three of Batch 1 and one of Batch 2, described as follows:

D108 HMS Cardiff
"Agris in cardine rerum" (Keen in Emergency), the oldest of the Type 42 Air Defence Destroyers saw action in the Falklands, and also served in the Adriatic and the Persian Gulf.

D87 HMS Newcastle
Served for over two decades, taking part in anti-drugs-smuggling operations and humanitarian missions, such as the relief of Montserrat just a few years ago.

D88 HMS Glasgow
"Memor Es Tourum" (Be mindful of your ancestors), Glasgow was the last of the Batch 1 destroyers built, and the first British warship to enter the exclusion zone in 1982. (She was also on hand at East Timor, but I'm not sure that would have happened, anymore, if you follow my AMW drift)

D92 HMS Liverpool
The only remaining Batch 2 Type 42 is similar in dimension to the Batch 1 vessels, but was built in sections while still under cover. She currently mounts 20mm Vulcan Phalanx.

These ships are available for export to Hindustan, with an asking price in the order of US$75million compared to the ninety million asked for the sold Batch 3 vessels. The details of any sale are negotiable, and price would presumably come down still further if weapons systems are to be removed. They presently mount twin Sea Dart missile launchers, a Mk8 4.5in. gun, 2xVulcan Phalanx CIWS, 2x20mm close-range guns, 2xtriple anti-submarine torpedo tubes, and decoy launchers. Mk8 Lynx helicopters are supported from the 125metre 4,820 tonne warships, which have a maximum speed of 30 knots and crew of 287 (312 maximum).

The 75,000,000 USD asking price is considered good, as the armories, not knowing what to expect when purchasing big ships. After all, the HN hadn't bought anything larger than a corvette from a foreign country since the transfer of the Viraat.

In retrospect, it is decided to keep the Sea Dart SAMs, with their impressive 80km range, and the 4.5in main gun. It is asked that all the other weapons systems except those mentioned above be removed.

With the last of the venerable Type 42s either en route to Hindustan or docked at the breaker's for partial stripping of their weaponry, the Royal Navy celebrates the launching of another Type 45 Daring, and exciting reports of good progress on the landmark battleship Courageous. 16" guns have been reported in production, thought related to those impressive weapons proposed after the second world war, capable of more than three volleys per minute, no doubt with near pin-point modern accuracy. Tens of thousands of tonnes in the toughest British steel are being prepared, some of it in Sheffield, revitalised by Bull's British Industrialists, a fitting send-off to the Type-42s, otherwise known as the Sheffields.

Ex-Cardiff is due to arrive off Gujarat by tomorrow afternoon, handed over for renaming, refitting, but not such drasitc reassignment as she goes on to protect life and democracy for new clients. The remaining three destroyers will follow in coming days and weeks. Cardiff's skeleton crew has been asked to partake of leave in Hindustan and to spend their wages liberally while in India, conducting themselves in a proper and friendly fashion before flying home in three weeks' time.

The ex-Cardiff is towed into the sprawling Mumbai shipyards, larger even than the Hyundai yards in Korea. Down the coast are more shipyards and ports, as well as a breaker's yard, all of which feed and export Hindustani agriculture and industry throughout the world.

The ex-Cardiff is floated up on a drydock once its crew has disembarked. The operation is done very quickly, owing to the size and capabilities of the shipyards. A reminder of the hostile northern neighbor, Akash SAM batteries are sprinkled around the shipyard facilities to guard against missile or bomber attacks.

Shipyard workers dressed in protective suits are hoisted up on a platform, and, with the aid of a stencil, spraypaint on HNS PONDICHERRY on the bow.

The grey Royal Navy paint scheme is left on, but soon derricks are towering over the ship, and within the first hour they can be seen hefting AS. 117 and BrahMos launchers into place, as yard workers crawl all over the ship, equipped with torches and ship blueprints.

With work already under-way on what will become HMS Courageous, the first such vessel to serve the mother-country of the modern battleship since the Vanguard, almost half a century ago, various media outlets have claimed to possess the historic ship's specifications, and even line-drawings of its planned layout.

HMS Courageous is often said to be intended as a counter to French battleships, sometimes little more than a prestige piece for the dramatic Prime Minister, and otherwise a signal of the return of gunboat politics or simply a stupid waste of resources. Nether the less, The Times described a formidable vessel.

It specified a Courageous over 864ft long at the waterline and 892ft over all, with a 120ft beam, weighing 59,200t standard and 69,120 deep load.

Apparently furnished with none-nuclear propulsion -perhaps for economic reasons- the ship's 7,800t oil capacity would still allow her 16,000 nautical miles of cruise range. Four shafts would propel her up to at least 29 knots.

The suggested armament was principly in the form of nine 16" guns with a firing interval below twenty seconds, which is hardly surprising since not much less than that was promised for similar British warships cancelled decades ago.

Other guns would be twenty-four 155mm Dual-Purpose guns in twelve dual mounts, these alone giving her twice the gunpower of all of a planned twelve Daring Class destroyers.

But, this being the C21st, the article did not suppose that Courageous would rely entirely on guns, crediting her with a varied missile armament.

A forty-eight cell Tomahawk ASM/LAM cruise missile VLS array indicated an intention to U-turn on election-era insistances that BID would stay away from buying Quinntonian armaments over British replacements that may have further strained the economy, as the French seemed unafraid to do themselves.

Four Harpoon quad canister anti-ship missile systems kept up the Quinntonian part in the new British battleship's arsenal, providing yet another layer to her combat potential.

Two sixteen-cell PAAMS Aster VLS SAM system with Aster 15 and 30 missiles sounded a more European note and harkened back to better days in the cross-channel relationship, giving absolutely cutting edge air defence to the ship as they did so.

It didn't stop there, as the two-page spread went on to claim nine evolved Goalkeeper 30mm CIWS, capable of autonomous reaction to threats and of firing seventy rounds per second.

Finally, faithful old GPMG 7.62mm machineguns furnished the claimed design with last-ditch air defence and weapons for use against less-serious targets.

This manifestation of Courgaeous' future self credited her with 15" belt armour and 6" average deck armour, ranging over 7" at maximum, and said that the ship's significant displacement was likely to be in no small part due to the unusually extensive spread of her armour.

The battleship would, reportedly, be able to operate Lynx or Merlin helicopters, and may use Merlin MASC (MAritime Surveillance and Control aircraft) and perhaps Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, possibly of Quinntonian origin.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/Chivtv/NS1/Lion_Alt.bmp

(OOC: Mainly I'm posting this in the form of disputable media reports so that people can chip in before launch and unveiling of any final data, suggesting changes without me having to explain away nonsense Admiralty, government and contractor mistakes that would only have been made by a complete amature such as myself! :) So, yes, erm, comments welcome!)

((Kudos, truly. A proud ship, no doubt the British are still taking their inspiration from us. If only Quinntonia didnt exist, mon ami, perhaps we could once again have battled for world supremacy. Ahh, the 18th Century to 1789, truly a blissful time. Your enemies were clear, honorable, and well dressed. And the rest of the world a tabula rasa. But Kudos again. I only wish I had an honorable authority to compete with via a powerful English Monarch, instead of a rabble. O Tempora, O Mores! BTW, The Cherbourgs still have a bit more weight, and I think are faster. Armament is equal, demm it, and you have a bit more armor. One squat and heavy, the other full framed and fast. Although those differences are minute, admittedly. Congrats ::Coughs "Ushant"::))

(You're right! I should pull a 179errr4? on that! Six French ships captured, one sunk, no English losses, by our score-card ;) Still, to be fair, the English were outnumbered, so probably just... er... well, there's an explanation that makes the French look good, I'm sure!
It is ever so tempting to build more big-gun ships and prepare to duel (maybe we should invite the Spanish so at least the looser can have someone to whip, afterwards), but then knowing my luck we'd never go to war and I'd end up needing aircraft carries to fight somebody in the Pacific or something :) I've set a cap of less than 50% higher recruitment than in the late 90's, so sadly won't be able to do that, 'fleet to beat the next two on earth combined' stuff, anymore.
Yeah, I'm just babbling, now.)

Just a couple of questions and comments.

We will be more than willing to sell our NATO/WEC allies any and all heavy armaments they would like, with no restrictions, except WMD.

I just have to know, if this is AMW thread, then you do not have the capacity to fulfill the many, many orders you have recieved. If, however, this is AMW thread, how many ships total are you building for yourself/selling and to whom?

WWJD
Amen.

OOC: Well, if you look to the top of this very page*, you should see, "[Nb! The British Federation is now part of a closed RP community known as A Modern World, and as such those outside said community need not pay attention to these announcements... ah, except for that one... and that... and that]"

This thread was begun last June, so the early sales indicated don't really have a bearing on AMW. I've neglected the proper arms export thread, too, though AMW nations -as Hindustan prove- are still welcome to come asking for British equipment.

The British fleet totals are still based on what was used previously, as I never got as far as going above Britain's capacities in that respect, anyway. I think that the only sales that remain significant are of the Type 42 Air Defence Destroyers to Hindustan. We have been thinking about marketing Harrier IV and Sea Harrier 4 to Roycelandia, though :)

*Edit! Ah, crap! It would start a new page when I post that, wouldn't it? Ha!

The Quinntonian government is willing to make a purchase of four of the 45s that are being decommissioned, and offers the price asked of Hindustan.

These are earmarked to be given as gifts to Hudecia, eventually, for use in the Pacifica and Atlantic Fleets.

WWJD
Amen.

OOC: SOrry Quinntonia.. been offline for a while.. on a bit of a vacation.

IC:

Hudecia's government under MacNally thanks the Quinntonians greatly for their generousity.

(The Type 45 (Daring Class) are newly into service (and some still under construction). The Type 42s (as fought probably most famously in the Falklands) are the ones being decommissioned. I'd be happy to assume their sale to either Quinntonia or Hudecia, to compensate for the fact that they were already sold in a pre-AMW reality, I need them off my hands so my fleet makes sense :) )

OCC: I am certainly impressed by the European battleships, although I highly doubt that they have much utility in this day and age.

After all, they're expensive, fuel-hungry, and make very nice targets for anti-ship weaponry. I could have a good hundred missile FACs for a battleship, each one with 4-8 ASMs.

OOC: Well, I'd question whether those missile boats can deploy around the world, where the Courageous certainly can. It it certainly one of the most practical ways to carry out 'gunboat politics' in the modern world, and more practical than any other system in supporting heavily contested amphibious landings. It's one of several ways to take on enemy battleships, which well explains the British reactive decision to build a battleship, but doesn't really explain why the French started it. One could have argued in the Great War that aeroplanes didn't make much sense when they had seriously limited abilities... but once one side had them, the other had to, really, to counter them. It's sort of the same with our decision to build the Courageous... we probably wouldn't have done it if the French hadn't started the race. Volley after volley of 16" shells plundging on to an enemy ship are probably more likely to wreck it than are anti-ship missiles designed to sink thin-skinned modern ships clanging into near a foot and a half of steel belt. Those missile boats may even find that their weapons -those that get past escorts and massive counter-missile-missile banks and mutiple CIWIS guns- make relatively little impression, while quick-firing 6" guns capable of hitting some aircraft are ranged against them along with missiles that won't have any trouble blowing them out of the water. There's always the question of getting enough missile boats assembled, active, co-ordinated and supplied out at sea for long enough and in concentration enough to meet an incoming battleship, especially without leaving other areas exposed.
In the British case, an enemy may have to figure out where he's facing the most threat- the battleship? The fleet carriers? The assault ships? The nuclear submarines? Not to mention the frigates and top-class destroyers.

Plus, the RN is on a taxing recruitment drive under Bull, and Britain has had trouble getting thousands of young people to sign up to the armed forces -this isn't America, after all, and most people aren't remotely interested in blowing things up for flag and country. A big shiny battleship looks ever so good on recruitment posters and TV adverts :)

OCC: Missile FACs aren't necessarily Osas or Komars. The Jharkhand class vessels, as well as the Bengal class corvettes, can both launch AS. 117 anti-ship missiles at ranges in excess of 225 kilometers, so there's no element of dodging gunfire.

Also, being equipped with Akash-I SAMs, a CIWS gun, and an extensive ECM suite, both the above-mentioned vessels can readily defend themselves from retaliatory fire.

Its certainly true that one or two anti-ship missiles won't penetrate the defenses of a modern European battlegroup, but its not one or two missiles in question here. If a hostile battlegroup came within around 400 kilometers of the Hindustani coast, they would immediately be assailed by not only corvettes, smaller patrol vessels, and submarines, but also aircraft and helicopters, all armed with long-range ASMs and engaging in large numbers.

At closer ranges, short of 300km, shore-based ASM launchers can hit targets with BrahMos missiles. We're talking a steady barrage of advanced weaponry from a multitude of small, fast-moving platforms supported by a significant force of aircraft and submarines, directed at anything dangerous that gets near the Hindustani coastline.

While British ships don't worry the military, now that the French are furnished with battleships, and given the fact that they don't exactly take Hindustan seriously, the gunboat politics on the part of Louis XX are a possibility. Also, what better way to destroy Chinese supercarriers?

Of course, given their current economic situation, the answer to that might be 'put them in water.'

Government White Paper on the Defence of the Realm

A high priority of Prime Minister Chaffin's new government is to establish a clear doctrine governing the maintaining, equipping and use of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces for the defence of the United Kingdom and her interests.

After careful review by the Secretary of State for Defence, it has been decided to broadly continue with the implementation of the Strategic Defence Review of the last government. It is the belief of the Cabinet that these reforms have yielded a military that is capable and sufficient in size, and it is therefore most efficient to continue with this course of action, with several notable amendments however.

(So everyone understands, these reviews are not based on the current force levels of the current RL British military, but on the military that TBF’s previous player, and his PM, John Bull, was responsible for. From my briefs from the former player, I have assumed, where there is no specific information, that that force levels are equivalent to those of the early ‘90s, and I have therefore used 1994 statistics as my start point for Army end strength. For the Air Force I have used both the information I received from the old TBF in terms of the types used, combined with manning levels of the same period as the Army. With regards to the Royal Navy, I was given much better information on this from the former player, so I have not used statistics from the 1990s for this.)

Royal Navy:

Whilst, the Courageous class Battleship project would not have been initiated by this government, it is a decision that has already taken place and it would only further the financial wastage to decommission such a new vessel. Therefore HMS Courageous will continue to serve as the Royal Navy’s Flagship.

The government is committed to the maintenance of a three carrier fleet, and the final vessel of the Queen Elizabeth Class, will be completed and commissioned as planned, though it will be named Hermes rather than the proposed name of Glorious. It has been decided however that at least one of the three Invincible class CVS vessels will be refitted as purely a helicopter carrier to compliment HMS Ocean in the amphibious operations role. The other two decommissioned carriers will therefore await disposal, preferably through sale.

To reflect the government’s commitment to focus on force projection, the Ministry of Defence will order a third vessel of the Albion class landing dock ships to be named Intrepid.

The previous government’s order for 12 Type 45 Destroyers will be adhered to; however the final batch of six vessels will be constructed with a surface to surface cruise missile capability, a feature which the ship design has provision for. The costs of this are far outweighed by the capability offered, and for the first time Royal Navy surface ships will be able to strike deep into enemy territory. The remaining three Type 42 Batch 2 vessels will be paid off as soon as possible, whilst the four Type 42 Batch 3 ships will remain in service until further Type 45s are in service, to keep a minimum of ten destroyers active.

The government intends to maintain the fleet of sixteen Type 23 frigates, in addition to the four vessels of the Type 22 Batch 3 class. Meanwhile all four ships of Type 22 Batch 1 will be decommissioned and three of the five Type 22 Batch 2 will also be paid off, with the remainder placed in a reserve and training role. The Ministry of Defence will also start the Future Frigate Initiative with the aim of devising a design for the Type 23’s successor in the medium term.

As far as submarines are concerned, the government maintains its intentions to commission twelve Astute class nuclear attack submarines. These will be built at a rate of between one and two hulls per year, and will likely replace on a one for one basis the Swifsture and Trafalgar classes. To expand the capability of the navy in littoral environments, the Navy will refit and recommission the four Upholder class Diesel-Electric submarines, currently awaiting sale (I’m supposing that in AMW they haven’t yet been sold to Canada). The government intends to maintain the current four vessels of the nuclear deterrent Vanguard class.

The most significant adjustment to both Royal Navy and Royal Air Force spending plans is the cancellation of the Super Harrier/Sea Harrier IV program. This project has been reviewed extensively and found to be technically too ambitious, unfeasibly expensive and highly cost ineffective. For the moment, the carrier fleet will continue to use existing Sea Harriers, and loaned RAF Harrier GR.9s as an interim, although due to a shortage in airframes will have to deploy slightly under strength for the time being. However, since the QEIII class carriers can be fitted with catapults and arresting gear, it seems probable that a CTOL solution, which offers more capability at a lower cost, will be found. Although no decision has been taken on the type to be introduced, one which is already in service and developed (such as a foreign plane) or an existing type that can be modified for carrier use (such as Typhoon).

In line with this government’s policy to enhance the amphibious capabilities of the Royal Navy, the Royal Marines is to be expanded. 44 Commando will be reformed, adding a fourth infantry unit to 3 Commando Brigade. The RM’s Fleet Protection Group will be enlarged to battalion strength, so that in can takeover the domestic maritime counter-terrorist operations currently a duty of the Special Boat Squadron.

Army

The Secretary of State for Defence and the Chief of the Defence Staff have largely agreed to maintain the composition of the Army at current levels, at least for the time being. The government has also committed itself to equipment upgrade programs started under the last government, including the modernisation of the Warrior Section Vehicle and to continue a study into upgrading the Challenger II Main Battle Tank. Army Aviation will be reviewed, with a view to improving the capabilities of the Gazelle light helicopter, specifically in regards to its anti-tank role, the government will also commit to purchasing the Future Lynx as its new attack helicopter. With a focus on improving deployability and force-projection, the Army will be given a sixth Division Headquarters, and two or three previously unassigned brigades will be placed under it.

Italics denotes proposed changes

123,000 Regulars
55,000 Territorials
408 Main Battle Tanks
575 Warriors
103 Lynx AH.7
67 WAH-64D Apache
62 Future Battlefield Lynx
24 Lynx AH.9
164 Gazelle AH.1

Regular Army:
Armour Regiments 12
Infantry Battalions 46
Special Forces 1
Aviation Regiments 6
Artillery Regiments 16
Engineers 12
Signals 14
Home Services Battalions 8

Territorials:
Armour Regiments 5
Infantry Battalions 36
Special Forces 2
Artillery Regiments 6
Engineers 9
Signals 11


Royal Air Force

It is the view of the Defence Staff and the Secretary of State that the Air Force is critically important to the defence of the nation, and at current levels, is insufficient. To resolve this, the MoD will change its planned introduction of the Typhoon, so that instead of replacing Tornado ADV and IDS versions on a one for one basis, it is introduced in addition to the Tornado GR.4s and replace only the Tornado F.3s, with a larger number of fighters. This will mean an increase in Air Defence Squadrons from 10 to 20, while leaving the ground attack force intact. While this will take longer, as new recruits will be required, and squadron infrastructure built up, the cost and time is a small price for much a more capable Air Force. Two Tornado F.3 Squadrons will not receive Typhoon but will have their current aircraft modified for SEAD and EW roles, as this is a key area of weakness. The cancellation of the Harrier IV will provide much of the necessary funds for this restructuring, and the current Harrier fleet will be maintained in its current form.

In terms of support aircraft, the Royal Air Force will receive an additional squadron of four MR.4 Nimrods that will be upgraded from retired airframes and re-commissioned to improve maritime patrol capabilities. Airlift will also be significantly increased with four additional C-17 aircraft, and another squadron of eleven C-130J transports. To augment the existing tanker fleet, an invitation to tender will be put forward for twelve additional AAR tankers.

In total it is expected that the RAF will increase its personnel end strength to approximately 76,500.

Italics denotes proposed changes

4 Harrier GR. 9 Squadrons each with 14 Aircraft + 8 Reserve
2 Typhoon F.1 Squadrons each with 12 Aircraft (+10 Additional new Squadrons)
11 Tornado GR. 4 Squadrons each with 12 Aircraft + 3 Reserve + 60 GR.1 awaiting sale
10 Tornado F.3 Squadrons each with 16 Aircraft + 6 Reserve (8 Squadrons to receive Typhoon, 2 Squadrons to be re-roled to SEAD)
4 Jaguar Squadrons each with 12 Aircraft + 4 Reserve
2 Nimrod AEW.3 Squadrons each with 4 aircraft + 1 Test bed
1 Nimrod R.1 Squadron with 3 aircraft
3 (Nimrod MR.4 Squadrons each with 4 aircraft (+1 Squadron of four)
1 Canberra PR.9 Squadron with 5 aircraft
3 C-130K Squadrons each with 11 aircraft
2 C-130J Squadrons each with 11 aircraft (+1 Squadron of eleven)
1 C-17 Squadron with 4 aircraft (+4 additional aircraft)
2 VC-10 Tanker Squadrons each with 12 aircraft
2 Future Tanker Squadrons each of 12 yet to be determined aircraft
1 Tristar Squadron with 9 aircraft
1 Sea King HAR.3 squadron with 8 aircraft
1 Wessex HC.2 squadron with 9 aircraft


Helicopters assigned to Joint Helicopter Command:
34 Chinook HC.2
22 Merlin HC.3
38 Puma HC.1
12 Wessex HC.2


New Contracts Available for International Tender

Although there is an inherent preference for UK products, this new government is much more willing to solicit consider foreign bids on certain contracts, though preferably with some UK industrial involvement.

Future Tanker Requirement - 12 New AAR tankers, performance to exceed that of the VC-10.

Future Carrier Aircraft - Between 80 and 120 multorole carrier-capable combat aircraft.

New Air Launched Anti-Shipping weapon - Replacement for Sea Eagle

What about the Apatches? thier introduction was intended to seriously reduce the number of gazelle's required for the armed recce role.

Nice more on keepigng the F3s and as SEAD, as the EF3 project stands a tthe moment they are simply the best SEAD aircraft in existance and with the extra funding would be more or less unbeatable... (until the growler comes out).

So i take it you aren't going for a (B)A330-200 tanker conversion any more? well if not that you only leave yourself the option of the vastly underspec KC-767 or trying to biuld KC-747s to get the capacity offered by the KC330.

Oh and while i remeber the MoD in RL has just chosen the Future Lynx as a repalcement for the current RN Lynx HMA.8s

What about the Apatches? thier introduction was intended to seriously reduce the number of gazelle's required for the armed recce role.

Nice more on keepigng the F3s and as SEAD, as the EF3 project stands a tthe moment they are simply the best SEAD aircraft in existance and with the extra funding would be more or less unbeatable... (until the growler comes out).

So i take it you aren't going for a (B)A330-200 tanker conversion any more? well if not that you only leave yourself the option of the vastly underspec KC-767 or trying to biuld KC-747s to get the capacity offered by the KC330.

Oh and while i remeber the MoD in RL has just chosen the Future Lynx as a repalcement for the current RN Lynx HMA.8s

Bull would never have bought the Apache as he didn't like to buy off the USQ. With the Future Battlefield Lynx and giving TOW or Hellfire to Gazelle, it may not be necessary? As for the RN Future Lynx, I think we already have it, as I remember seeing an old TBF post about it somewhere...

Well in AMW the status of Airbus is unknown, at least to me anyway,So, I guess it'll be the KC-767 unless anyone else comes up with something different. I read that something as large as KC-747 is unfeasible as it creates too much wake turbulence.

Do you think two squadrons of EF.3 Tornadoes is enough?

In Rl terms they would be more than enough, but in AMW terms it is a bit tricky. In the end i would say it probabaly is since you can always use those 2 squadrosn to giude in all your other ALRAM capable fighters (Gr4s and Typhoon F2s when you get around to them (should be about the same time the Future Lynx come into service)).

Airbus is a major issue as unlike MBDA it is very difficult to split and none of the Fench/British/German companies involved really have the strength or facilities to keep it going individually.
Elkazor does mention Airbus's with names that do hint at a possible merger with Dassault but even then france would be facing huge difficulties producing large ariliners, as although they do posses the final assembly plants they lack msot of the major manufacuring bases.
TBF did hint that BAE and possibly some of the Old british names had made a major comeback and with Rolls Royce they probably have easy acess to the engines required. personally i think that BAe might have adopted the smaller Airbus designs as thier own as the A318-321 series is pretty much BAE's baby, hence why i play using the BA320 as my government jet.
The A330 does predate the French restoration IIRC so you coudl still likely gt your hands on 12 second hand ones quite easily and the actual tanker conversion was always planned to be carried out within the UK.

Even with the future lynx and un upgraded gazelle a true gunship has long been a major desire of the AAC and to be honest even TBF would have had to come to the conclusion that there wasn't really any other option as good as the AH-64D, anyway most of the WAH-64D componets are produced by british companies (appart from the longbow radar which likely has a lot of BAE parts like msot US defence equipment). Also if he could face using the C-17 (not a unversally popular chocie in the MoD because of the huge expense) the apatche is a relatively easy choice the only other options would have been the South african Roikvak and involvement with the tiger (and acess to the plans) before frnace mucked things up, the A129 isn't even an option as augusta in it's current form doesn't exist...

Well you've sold me on the Apache, as for Airbus, well I guess this is something we need to consider in more detail.

Other than ALARM capability, I'm assuming the EF.3 would need all the avionics used on the German Tornado ECRs?

What do you think of the plans for the Navy? Although technically is an open contract, I can't see how anything other than TLAM will be suitable for the Typ 45 Batch 2s.

[OOC: Tag. This is a really enjoyable thread (if only we really had a MP like John Bull). Just a shame Im not in AMW...]

Bull is history, you should read this, you may find it enjoyable too...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=413802

*Mouth waters*

IC:

As soon as the Hindustani embassy hears the news, an attache is sent to Downing Street with a briefcase full of papers.

Proposals include:

Aquisition of two Type 42 Batch 2 destroyers
Aquisition of Type 22 Batch 1 and available Batch 2 frigates
Renewal of contracts with BAe (or is it Vickers defense?) concerning Rapier and Starstreak missiles
Inclusion of Hindustani Gazelles in upgrade program
Aquisition of 100-300 Challenger I (or II, if you're selling) MBTs
Purchase of 30 Hawk trainers

But the most desirable agreements would be those concerning the ships coming out of service. The Type 22 frigate would go a long way in helping the HN climb the ladder of semi-respectability, and another Type 42 aquisition would make up for both the Daman sinking and the retirement of the Viraat.

OCC: Are the Invincible and Glorious retired? If so, I would also be interested in getting my hands on them...

Well you've sold me on the Apache, as for Airbus, well I guess this is something we need to consider in more detail.

Other than ALARM capability, I'm assuming the EF.3 would need all the avionics used on the German Tornado ECRs?

What do you think of the plans for the Navy? Although technically is an open contract, I can't see how anything other than TLAM will be suitable for the Typ 45 Batch 2s.

Actually the basic F.3 already has msot of gear needed to track and indentify pretty much any ground radar, a new jammer pod might be a useful to suplment the F.3s already impressive integral one, as would a towed decoy (you coudl borrow the one from the Typhoon).
RAF F.3s were used extensively as poptter aircraft for SEAD missions during the Blkan conflicts, it often proved quicker and much more sucessful to have an Tornado F.3 ID any targets and then giude in what ever strike fighters were availble to bomb the target, rahter than fire the off 2 ALARMs from a GR4 or 10 HARMs from US and german SEAD fighters it generally took to shut down SAM sites.

As for the navy, you might consider a strike version of the ASTER30, similar in usage to strike version of the SM-2/3 Standard, also did TBF/bull ever go ahead with the 155mm regunning of the type 45s?

About the Aster...any chance of getting any? They look better than my Akash, although if I go with the Bloodhound modification that I've been brooding over, it might not be necessary.

*Mouth waters*

IC:

As soon as the Hindustani embassy hears the news, an attache is sent to Downing Street with a briefcase full of papers.

Proposals include:

Aquisition of two Type 42 Batch 2 destroyers
Aquisition of Type 22 Batch 1 and available Batch 2 frigates
Renewal of contracts with BAe (or is it Vickers defense?) concerning Rapier and Starstreak missiles
Inclusion of Hindustani Gazelles in upgrade program
Aquisition of 100-300 Challenger I (or II, if you're selling) MBTs
Purchase of 30 Hawk trainers

But the most desirable agreements would be those concerning the ships coming out of service. The Type 22 frigate would go a long way in helping the HN climb the ladder of semi-respectability, and another Type 42 aquisition would make up for both the Daman sinking and the retirement of the Viraat.

OCC: Are the Invincible and Glorious retired? If so, I would also be interested in getting my hands on them...


I think you mentioned what ships I asked for in the Invision forums. Well, here it is.

OOC: One of the three Invincible class vessels will be refitted as an LPH, most likely Illustrious, leaving Ark Royal and Invincible to be decommissioned soon. HMS Glorious is actually not yet in commission and is the third QEIII Class carrier, still under construction. However the Admiralty have decided to change the name of it to Hermes for historical reasons.

IC:

Whilst Prime Minister Chaffin is keen to maintain good relations with the more moderate inhabitants of the sub-continent, the Hindustani offers cannot be accepted entirely without condition. In other words, arms sales will not proceed in the same manner as they did under PM Bull, with no checks and balances. The government is obviously keen to promote industry and growth in the defence sector but not if it compromises national security in the future.

First of all, any deal involving the sale of the Challenger I Main Battle Tank would have to be conditional on Hindustan not engaging in technology transfer programs with any nation with this type, nor involving itself in any attempts to sell technological aspects to a foreign nation whatsoever. If Hindustan was ever to be found in breach, a complete arms embargo between the UK and Hindustan would result.

As far as the naval vessels are concerned, at this point we feel we need further reassurances of Hindustan's amicability, and peaceful intent before we would commit to such a major foreign sale. It should be noted that we fully respect the right of Hindustan to maintain capable defensive forces, and understand that a credible Navy is integral to Hindustani security, but that we could not allow these vessels to become a part of any expansionist policies by Beth Gellert, as seen in the Pacific recently.

The French Royal Navy has just announced new addition to His Most Christian Majesties fleet. British Naval experts, much admired by the aristocratic French, are invited to send a delegation to view to the new additions, and to foster a better sense of friendship amongst the two powers.

Construction in Cherbourg (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9000078)

OOC: One of the three Invincible class vessels will be refitted as an LPH, most likely Illustrious, leaving Ark Royal and Invincible to be decommissioned soon. HMS Glorious is actually not yet in commission and is the third QEIII Class carrier, still under construction. However the Admiralty have decided to change the name of it to Prince of Wales for historical reasons.

IC:

Whilst Prime Minister Chaffin is keen to maintain good relations with the more moderate inhabitants of the sub-continent, the Hindustani offers cannot be accepted entirely without condition. In other words, arms sales will not proceed in the same manner as they did under PM Bull, with no checks and balances. The government is obviously keen to promote industry and growth in the defence sector but not if it compromises national security in the future.

First of all, any deal involving the sale of the Challenger I Main Battle Tank would have to be conditional on Hindustan not engaging in technology transfer programs with any nation with this type, nor involving itself in any attempts to sell technological aspects to a foreign nation whatsoever. If Hindustan was ever to be found in breach, a complete arms embargo between the UK and Hindustan would result.

As far as the naval vessels are concerned, at this point we feel we need further reassurances of Hindustan's amicability, and peaceful intent before we would commit to such a major foreign sale. It should be noted that we fully respect the right of Hindustan to maintain capable defensive forces, and understand that a credible Navy is integral to Hindustani security, but that we could not allow these vessels to become a part of any expansionist policies by Beth Gellert, as seen in the Pacific recently.

The Hindustani embassy is taken quite aback by Downing Street's response. After all, its not Hindustan who's going about taking over whole countries, and Chaffins is right cozy with Louis. Parliament isn't beating its population over the head with the cost of building a somewhat modern navy, but rather opts for second-hand ships so at least Somalia can't invade!

Parliament itself feels somewhat betrayed. A number of delegates, when discussing the subject at hand, invoke 'British responsibility to former colonies.' Others are keen to bring up the fact that, while Beth Gellert invaded New Caledonia for perfectly legitimate reasons (and didn't even go through with it in the end), France, Spain, and Italy, nations who England seems all too ready to court, are out conquering entire soveriegn nations because they feel like it, or so say many Parliamentary delegates.

Downing Street is reminded that the security of second-world Hindustan, bordered in the north by an unpredictable and unfriendly China and at the mercy of France's "ridiculous navy," rests largely in the hands of twelve Leander-class frigates and several world war two vintage destroyers. The Type 42s sold to Hindustan by Bull's old government certainly went a long way in enhancing the HDF's seagoing capabilities, and it is conjectured that the least Britan could do is replace the Daman, sunk off Lyong by no fewer than four Kirov battlecruisers.

"Hindustan does more than its fair share of taking care of this earth, and its high time Europe realized it!" says one more firey parliamentarian. After all, its not as though Hindustan sees itself as an even moderately threatening nation.

Of even greater concern is the fate of Western Sahara; for a long time, Parliament has attempted to gain a first-world supporter for the little state in Europe, if nothing else but to prevent its destruction by militant Spain. The embassy is quick to communicate Hindustani concerns to the English, and asks that perhaps Great Britan could keep Spain off long enough for the SADR to pick itself up from the ground...

The reply from the Foreign Office is slightly more amicable, and stresses that the UK has signed no formal diplomatic agreements with the French Kingdom, and that the plight of Western Sahara will be taken into consideration.

In truth largely resulting from Hindustani threats that they would construct their own vessels, authorisation is given for the four Type 22 Vessels Broadsword, Brazen, Battleaxe and Brilliant to be transfered to Hindustan pending further negotiations as to refits, weapons and sensor systems etc. Also offered are the four Type 21 class friagtes retired in the early '90s and still awaiting displosal, Amazon, Alacrity, Ambuscade and Avenger. At this time however further Type 42 examples are not available for sale, although this may change in the near future.

The HDF is considerably relieved by the British response. After all, it would be a strain, to say the least, for Hindustani shipbuilders (their hands already quite full with civillian commitments, so full that some projects have been outsourced to Al-Ahzad) to find the dock space to construct up to eight new frigates, especially with the Viraat being broken up for scrap.

The embassy apologizes for its rashness, which could be attributed to the fact that the acquisition of Type 22s was a HDF dream for a number of years, and indignation over what is percieved as Western antimosity towards India. As a gesture of continuing Anglo-Indian cooperation, Parliament announces that the HNS Babur (ex-Diadem) could make a cruise to England for the benefit of RN veterans, and possibly be given back to the British people as a museum ship (funded by Parliament of course). Parliament also promises to try and temper Bedgellen revolutionary fervor when it can, practically and morally, and to continue its aid contributions to the third world in greater volume. After all, says Parliament, guns and missiles aren't India's only means of affecting global change.

The Embassy also asks if the defense attache could tour the ships in question, although Mumbai's post-acceptance fax details a number of quite likely conversions and modernizations. The Type 21s are the subject of the most comprehensive work proposals, mostly concerning their numerous design shortcomings. Although it is assumed that the ships' aluminum components have already been removed and replaced, the HDF wants to make quite sure that the four HDF Amazons (likely to keep their original names, given the fact that HDF vessels have already taken most of the indigenous ones) have reinforced hulls and a reduced topweight. Crew size will likely be reduced by at least 50 hands, the 4.5in gun removed (and replaced with a lighter 40mm), and missile systems will be converted over to HDF standard.

The Type 22s, already quite capable ships, will not be tampered with so much.

With regards to the Type 21 vessels, the Admiralty wishes to inform the Hindustani Parliament that HMS Amazon is configured slightly differently, and lacks the post-Falklands Exocet fit but does indeed have the hull strengthening similar to its sisterships. On a further note, it is requested that the HDF consider renaming their vessels as the current pennants may be used for future vessels of the Astute class of submarine.

The possible return of HMS Diadem would also be most welcome, and the vessel would be a welcome addition to Portsmouth Naval Base's museum, to rest alongside Warrior and Victory.

__________

In other news, at a ceremony at Barrow-in-Furness, HMS Upholder has been recommissioned into Her Majesty's service following an upgrade and refit after spending over a decade in mothballs. Having completed extensive sea trials, mostly to test the newly fitted Air Independant Propulsion (AIP) system, that represents the most significant aspect of the modernisation.

Although few technical details are being released, the system is understood to be a Closed Cycle Diesel (CCP) that allows the submarine to increase its submerged endurance by a factor of five. The system can apparently eject exhaust up to 500m in depth and allows the submarine to operate at the same speed as a regular diesel engine. Because the CCD system uses a regular diesel engine to provide propulsion, little in the way of new maintenance facilities or extensive training for crews and support staff are necessary. (Although the construction of a shore-based cryogenics plant will be necessary for the storage of LOX and this underway at Faslane as well as possibly Plymouth). Since the system uses regular diesel fuel, submarines powered by CCD can refuel at ports anywhere around the world, or use fuel supplies carried by any number of AORs.

It is expected that the simultaneous programs being undertaken on the other three vessels will be completed shortly, and that Unseen, Ursula and Unicorn will be in commission within months. The RN's new fleet of Diesel-Electric Submarines will apparently be primarily used for operations in the Mediterranean.

The previous government’s order for 12 Type 45 Destroyers will be adhered to; however the final batch of six vessels will be constructed with a surface to surface cruise missile capability, a feature which the ship design has provision for. The costs of this are far outweighed by the capability offered, and for the first time Royal Navy surface ships will be able to strike deep into enemy territory.

OOC: Sorry I saw this a while ago but didn't get round to replying, hope its not too late to make an offer? I'm guessing the only real other option is Tomahawk, as getting Storm Shadow to fit into a VLS tube isn't really feasible given its shape...

IC

In response to RN plans, Elias Aerospace Weapons Subsidiary proposes its EAW-12 'Shaheen' cruise missile, intended for the Type 45 Batch 2 vessels.

The EAW-12 is a cruise missile carrying a range of powerful warheads, which is able to destroy sensitive and highly protected targets (command bunkers, communications centers, etc.) with great accuracy, with a range of over 550 nautical miles after an entirely autonomous terrain-following flight at very low altitude. It was developed to attack and destroy a wide spectrum of static, high value, heavily defended targets and is available in air, surface and submarine launched versions.

The first phase of the mission planning regime ensures that the missile navigates to the target with maximum survivability and then enters a robust target acquisition and terminal guidance phase. For complex and pre-determined missions, much of this data would have been pre-prepared earlier at the Command Headquarters. Following an Air Tasking Order, the launch platfrom would prepare the mission data file with the pre-planned data, together with the latest operational intelligence.

After launch, the missile changes from its firing altitude to very low cruising altitude. Its inertial navigation is continuously updated through information supplied by its navigation system following the ground by digital terrain profile matching and by GPS (Global Positioning System). This redundancy provides it with excellent navigational precision and resistance to countermeasures.

On approaching the terminal phase, the missile will initiate a bunt maneuver, pre-selected during mission planning, to obtain the best combination of acquisition probability and lethality against the target. As the missile climbs, it will jettison its nose cover, thereby enabling the missile high resolution imaging infra-red sensor to view the target area ahead.

The missile’s image processor will compare the actual image features with a reference set of features, determined during mission planning. When a feature match is achieved the target will be acquired and the required aim point selection tracked and used as the reference for the missile terminal guidance. As the missile closes in on the target the acquisition process will be repeated with a higher resolution data set to refine the aim point. Tracking will continue against this refined aim point until the precise target location is identified.

When engaging hard targets, such as Hardened Aircraft Shelters or bunkers, the missile will strike the target at the estimated optimum dive angle, selected during mission planning. On impact the detonation sequence commences. The precursor charge will perforate the target structure, and any soil covering, and the follow through penetrator warhead will continue to penetrate inside the target to be detonated after a pre-selectable fuse delay. Should the mission be against a target with potential high collateral damage, the mission will be aborted if the target identification and acquisition process is unsuccessful. In this case the missile will fly to a predetermined crash site.

Versions

EAW-12A Version:

The EAW-12A uses the 1000lb EWM-120 BROACH multi-warhead system, which achieves its results by combining an initial penetrator warhead with a secondary follow-through bomb, supported by multi-event hard target fusing. The outcome is a warhead and fuse combination that provides for the defeat of hardened targets more than twice that achievable for equivalent single penetrating warhead types, at an equivalent weight and velocity. The warhead technology can be scaled and configured for a variety of weapon payload and targets requirements.

EAW-12B Version:

The EAW-12B uses the 1000lb EWM-230 Cluster warhead which contains 850 BLU-97 anti-personnel/anti-tank bomblets. The BLU-97/B Combined Effects Bomb (CEB), effective against armour, personnel and material, contains a shaped charge, scored steel casing and zirconium ring for anti-armour, fragmentation and incendiary capability. The bomblet case is made of scored steel designed to break into approximately 300 preformed ingrain fragments for defeating light armour and personnel.

EAW-12A/B-S = Ship Launched Version

EAW-12A/B-U = Submarine Launched Version

Specifications

Category: Anti-Surface Cruise Missile
Length: 159 inches
Diameter: 22 inches
Weight: 2377lb
Warhead: EAW-12A: 1000lb BROACH, EAW-12B 1000lb APAT Cluster
Guidance Type: I/GPS/ImIR
Range: 650nm

Unit Cost:

Air Launched:
EAW-12A BROACH Warhead = 1.11 million
EAW-12B Cluster warhead = 1.1 million

Ship Launched
EAW-12A-S BROACH Warhead = 1.11 million
EAW-12B-S Cluster warhead = 1.1 million

Submarine Launched
EAW-12A-S BROACH Warhead = 1.41 million
EAW-12B-S Cluster warhead = 1.4 million

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/United-Elias/untitled.bmp

From the Royal Navy's standpoint, the EAW-12 is smaller and lighter than Tomahawk, with similar range, comparable payload (although with a more advanced warhead) and crucially uses a far superior guidance system in both its accuracy and its resistance to countermeasures, and one that is specifically designed to minimise collateral damage, all delivered at a practically identical unit price. The fact that is off-the-shelf technology means that little development costs are incurred (other than system integration) yet unlike Tomahawk its design is modern, not 20 years dated.

The Babur, now changed into a British wartime livery and with most of its modern, HDF-issue systems removed, sails out into the Gulf of Khambhat from its mooring in Daman. Motoring at a leisurely 20 knots, the ship heads for the Suez canal, flying a Union Jack beside a HDF ensign. The old turrets and systems have been largely restored, although some work will have to be performed on the ship when it reaches England. The sillouettes of sunk Bedgellen warships remain on the side of the superstructure, with British intentions in that regard being unknown.

Also, it is asked if the Royal Navy has any mothballed Leander-class frigates. According to the embassy, it would be preferable to acquire a number of those, in the interest of class commonality, over the Type 21.

The recommissioning of the Upholder class as AIP boats is of particular interest, given Hindustan's recent development of the Bihar class SSKs. Essentially copies of the German U212, they are fitted with air-independent propulsion as well, and the eight Bihars serving with the HDF (out of a full order of ten) have shown great promise in trials. Parliament would be very open to joint projects or technology sharing initiatives on this subject.

Not that its any of my business, but I just thought that I should point something out. Hindustan, co-operation on AIP technology with TBF isn't going to be terribly helpful, as you seem to be both developing completely different types of AIP Technology. The CCD type that the UK has retrofitted on the Upholder class uses a different principal than the fuel cell technology used on the U212/214 types. Generally the latter is supposed to be better, but it is hard to backfit on an existing design, and must be installed during hull construction. This is the type of AIP used on our Tigershark class (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=291192), which involves nine PEM (polymer electrolyte membrane) fuel cells.

Of course we might be willing to assist Hindustan in this area if relations improved...On a related note, we have some (11 in total) 'Kilo' class SSKs that are due to be retired as the last of the Tigersharks are completed, that could potentially be purchased by the HDF if they wished. The Elias Kilos are all of 80s vintage, and were built under agreement in UE to a slightly different spec. Known as the 877-UE version, they use western style instrumentation and controls, and are fitted with a different fire control system to accomodate western armaments. After periodical upgrades, the system is optimised for the British 'Tigerfish' torpedo, and the submarines are capable of launching the SM 39 sub-launched Exocet (no longer in the Navy's inventory). Overall, they are in adequate condition and need only minor refits to enter service with another Navy.

OCC: Oh, sorry. I can't say that I know too much about AIP technology except that its on the U-212 class.

So...er...might as well disregard that one...

Wait! What about my HDW 209s? Do you think they could be refitted in the same fashion as the Upholder and be given a new lease on life for some years more?

Not to ramble, TBF, but I don't think (in response to your comment, UE) that the HDF could handle many more submarines without a serious personnel expansion. But I dunno. Mabye two or three wouldn't be a bad investment.

OOC: TBF, apologise for taking up your thread, but I need to go into some detail, here, plus on Sundays I get bored and need something to do... (besides recover from Saturday night of course)

LRR, I have refreshed my knowledge and done a bit more reading about AIP technology to try and answer your question about fitting a Closed Cycle Diesel system to the 209s and as with everything there is no simple answer.

As the name suggests, a CCD system simply closes the cycle — oxygen for combustion is supplied from LOX rather than from the atmosphere. This simple addition of liquid oxygen in a cryogenic tank allows a CCD-equipped SSK to increase its submerged endurance by a factor of five compared with the existing technology as it means that the diesel powerplant can be used underwater. In order to fit this to an existing submarine, the obvious way is simply to replace some of the Lead Acid Battery Cells to make room for a liquid oxygen tank, as the electric motors can now be charged underwater, and are no longer needed for submerged transit. Therefore, the submarine will have longer underwater endurance and be able to cruise at higher speeds more efficiently, but a shorter endurance on electric motors. The downside, however, is that running on the diesel rather than electric motors creates more acoustic radiation and makes the sub easier to detect. With a class such as the Upholder, this is less of an issue given what is still considered to be the quietest D/E hull design ever built (the fact that is larger also makes the Diesel plants quieter as they have more acoustic shielding).

With the 209 however, a CCD system would not necessarily be such a good idea given that it is not such a quiet hull to begin with and a fuel cell system, although more expensive to backfit, would be more appropriate. Fuel cell technology works using hydrogen, either extracted from methanol or metal hydride, is fed into the fuel cell where it breaks down into electrons and protons, with the help of a platinum-based catalyst. The electrons are used to generate the electrical power for the submarine, while the protons migrate across the proton exchange membrane. On the other side of the membrane, the electrons leave the electrical circuit and re-combine with the protons and with oxygen to form pure, potable water, which is the only by-product of this reaction. The chemical reaction provides electricity to run the sub's electric motors (at quite a low RPM) and the reaction itself is silent, with no moving parts and requires very little onboard maintenance. The downside of fuel cells compared to CCD, is that they only allow the electric engines to run at slow speeds (from what I have found out, usually up to about 5 or 6 knots) but this is the speed at which SSKs should cruise when they want to be silent (evidence suggests that at this speed an SSK is quieter than even the most advanced SSNs). For faster speed, the lead acid batteries can still be used and recharged through snorting as per usual but this is not as efficient as using a diesel submerged as with CCD.

Now, after that far too long elaboration, lets consider Hindustan's situation. Firstly, with the 212 design you will be using fuel cells and therefore need to incur the not insignificant overheads associated with shore-based infrastructure for fuel cell technology whether it is used on the 209s or not. Secondly, fuel cell technology can be backfitted to the 209 through a hull plug, that whilst is relatively costly compared to a CCD refit, but is not technologically risky, nor does it remove the vessel from service for long (the pre-fab hull section just has to be dropped in and connected up). In the long run however it could potentially give the 209s a decade's more service and makes them far more capable. In other words your realistic options are either to upgrade the 209s with fuel cells or not give them AIP, as to fit CCD would require you to have infrastrucutre to support two radically different systems, and not, in my opinion, be nearly as useful in terms of capability.

If you were to pursue the option of giving the 209s a PEM fuel cell system, Elias Marine Corporation proposes to undertake the work, and with our expertise in this field, we feel most able to deliver a reliable, capable system within budget as the fuel cell system can simply be a modified version of that used on the Tigershark class SSKs. The proposal for installing AIP in a Type 209 hull involves cutting the boat in half immediately aft of the control room and partially under the rear part of the sail. At this point a 6 m new hull section is inserted containing the AIP system. This comprises an upper deck housing two fuel cell stacks developing a total 200 kW that are housed in a pressurised container. The stacks are then connected to the electric powerplants, and new instrument and control panels are added in the control room and engineering spaces. Inserting the AIP section does not result in major disruption to the submarine's existing layout nor does it require a larger complement.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/United-Elias/209_cut.jpg

OCC: Not to be rude, UE, but we should probably take this to the offsite forums, if you don't mind. But yes I will certainly look into it, and will respond in detail soon. Eh, I suppose you get what you pay for when it comes to submarines, and I gather the HDW 209 was something of a budget boat.

(Actually LRR, I don't really mind, this is sort fo supposed to be a discussion thread as well, and although its not entirely relevant to the UK, its certainly interesting nonetheless.)

Following Hindustani enquiries the Admiralty informs the HDF that there are indeed four Leander class vessels currently in mothballs, HMS Scylla, Jupiter, Hermione and Charybdis. All of these vessels have had the Batch 3B modernisation with the Sea Wolf and Exocet missile systems replacing the 4.5 inch mount. Whilst the navy has no real use for these vessels, and they would be prepared to sell them, this would be conditional on purchasing the four Type 21s as well.

The Defence Evaluation and Research Agency has today announced that they will study the possibility of using the EAW-12 cruise missile and examine ways in which it can be integrated into the Type 45's VLS. In a separate statement by the Minister of Defence, it now appears almost certain that the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will be chosen as the future carrier aircraft in place of the cancelled Sea Harrier IV. Negotiations are currently underway with Lockheed Martin and the Quinntonian government as to what would be required in a UK variant. It is understood that the MoD is leaning towards the CTOL version, the F-35C, which would require the backfit of catapaults and arresting gear to the QEIII class carriers, as it offers better capability over the VTOL F-35B.

OCC: Oh, ok. Er...forget that then, UE. Sorry.

IC:

Mumbai, while unofficially disappointed at the fact that they would be stuck with the notorious Type 21s, accepts the British offer. With more knowledgeable officers coming in from Hindustan to review the vessels and comment on the necessary modifications, the embassy indicates that it is ready to negotiate prices.

Also, the subject of Challenger tanks is again brought up by the Embassy. While the Igovian MT-4, generally considered the answer to Hindustan's MBT problems, has begun to enter service in regiment strength, a handful of Challenger Is would not be at all unwelcome, especially given the multitude of other dated types in HDF service. It is suggested that, in order to prevent any trouble with regards to exposing any of the Challenger's advanced systems, the tanks have such equipment removed (at Hindustani expense). This will both eliminate the possibility of sensitive technology falling into unfriendly hands and facilitate the installation of more standard HDF devices.