NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC: This post and all subsequent posts are completely OOC, understand?

Right then, reading through a few threads Ive come across, it appears a few misconceptions about the Doujin class BBCNs have come to light. As the principle designer of the warship for Doujin, I feel I should be willing and able to answer any queries and quash any laughable rumours about the ship.

So, post or TG your questions.

How long does it take to stop and what is its turning circle?

what are its armerments and how did it stand in trials?

What would be the best strategy to sink one?

DP.

HH:

Depends on speed as the most important factor.

Stationary, it could turn in its own length using its bow and rear thrusters, though this would take a considerable period time.

At standard cruising speeds (about fifteen to twenty knots), the Doujin will complete a sharp turn with an six kilometre diameter arc, but this is not recommended, the secondary wake pressure generated by the multiple hulls creates a considerable strain on the central hull, and pretty much everything needs to be tied down. Generally, the Doujin will complete a normal turn with a 12-18 km arc.

At maximum-speed (around thirty knots), the Doujin can pull a sharp turn in abut 10-12 kms, again, not recommended. A safe turn could be between 24-30 kms. These huge turning circles mean that the Doujin's courses have to be programmed before hand to avoid grounding.

As for stopping, again depends on speed. The Doujin's propulsion arrangement is not the traditional screws and rudder set up, but internal pumpjets. these variable blade propellors can be switched in rotation and actually generate significant reverse thrust, vastly greater than say a traditionally powered equivelant.

For an emergency, full reverse stop, there is a simple formula. Divide the speed by three, and times this by the ships length. So, at 21 kts, this equals 21/3 = 7x 1 km (approx) = ~7,000 metres. However, this will result in the Doujin having to be towed to the drydock for propulsion and hull repairs.

In reality it takes 1 -2 hours to deaccelerate, meaning the ship could travel around 30-35 km before stopping properly. However, because of the sheer time and effort it takes to both deaccelerate and accelerate means that Doujin's will very rarely, if ever, actually become stationary except when docked in their own homeport.

NV: http://www.geocities.com/doujincorp/doujinbb.html

IDF: The best strategy is to use weapons which are kinetic rather than explosive based. The armour scheme on the Doujin isnt justa thick belt, but rather a multi-layered structure of numerous belts and void spaces designed to channel explosive force away from confined areas or vulnerable systems.

The armour is sufficiently thick to cause the premature detonation of even hypersonic weaponry. Thus, the only real rounds that are any good are kinetic (ie solid metal slugs) that transfer their energy via momentum rather than explosive force. Rail guns, ballistic and orbital kinetic rounds are the best bet to combat kill a Doujin.

How would boarding it work as a strategy?

Now, how well would such a thing as supercavitating torpedoes work (you know, they go uberly fast for torpedoes)?

How would boarding it work as a strategy?

OOC: An intrestng question, and depends on the circumstances involved. If the Doujin is travelling with a considerable battlegroup then a boarding action would be extremely difficult to set up, let alone accomplish.

Assuming, of course, that you were able to get sufficent quantities of men aboard, the going would be difficult. The Doujin's principle role is to ensure the protection and survival of the CO of the Doujin fleet. For this, the Doujin carries a considerable complement of marines onboard to defend against such an action. Interior bulkheads are tough to cut through, and any invading force would have to fight almost hand to hand through twenty odd decks to even get near the command systems or control rooms.

It can work, but you need significant numerical superiority in order to achieve this. It would be a very bloody operation.

Now, how well would such a thing as supercavitating torpedoes work (you know, they go uberly fast for torpedoes)?

Well, depends again on the torpedoes you use and what tech level you are at.

But for ones in the Doujin tech level (about 2004-2010) probably little more than minimal damage will be caused. Because of suggestions during the design stage I basically created the armour belts going all the way around the hull instead of having a thinner torpedo belt. As these belts are designed to deal with missiles travelling with much greater velocity than even the fastest supercavs, (which generally hit about mach 0.5) then, as you can imagine, the modern armour panelling will not struggle to deal with either the kinetic or explosive force. Weigh in the fact that the Doujin has 144 water tight compartments (from both lateral and horizontal bulheads, mind, not 144 in a row ala Titanic) and most torpedoes do little damage per se.

However, you may get a golden shot into the entry tubes for the pumpjet engines, and then you do disable part of the propulsion drive. But it is a tough shot.

How much time does it spend in port for maintenance\R&R etc, compared to the amount of time it spends out on patrol, and would it be easier to sink\damage while it's in port?

How would boarding it work as a strategy?

OOC: An intrestng question, and depends on the circumstances involved. If the Doujin is travelling with a considerable battlegroup then a boarding action would be extremely difficult to set up, let alone accomplish.

Assuming, of course, that you were able to get sufficent quantities of men aboard, the going would be difficult. The Doujin's principle role is to ensure the protection and survival of the CO of the Doujin fleet. For this, the Doujin carries a considerable complement of marines onboard to defend against such an action. Interior bulkheads are tough to cut through, and any invading force would have to fight almost hand to hand through twenty odd decks to even get near the command systems or control rooms.

It can work, but you need significant numerical superiority in order to achieve this. It would be a very bloody operation.

I'd probably do it from the air, after taking out as much AA equipment as possible.

Two questions --

1. What frequencies does the radios on it operate in?
2. What forms of entertainment are available to the crews?

If I'm correct, it functions similar to a pontoon boat.

What would happen if I were to "slice off" the two side pontoons. Would it still float? Would it be unstable enough whereas I could ram something into the tower to completely tip the ship over?

How much time does it spend in port for maintenance\R&R etc, compared to the amount of time it spends out on patrol, and would it be easier to sink\damage while it's in port?

They can theoretically maintain huge three year cruises if need be and resources allow, but these are expensive, the general deployment/dock ratio is a respectable 50/50 ratio, but in reality the sheer cost of deployment means these vessels tend to stay in dock most of the time. Because of the constant upgrades as well, a lot of vessels spend a considerable time out of water.

In terms of hitting it, a number of factors change. The Doujin's, we always accepted, were going to be large and easy to hit targets, so I put a lot of effort in making them more survivable against the almost certain high number of missile impacts, meaning that the passive level of protection remains the same. However, because of the reduced crew and powered down systems, then the active defenses (such as the numerous CIWS) are going to suffer.

Remember though, that these vessels only dock in Doujinshi ports, which are extremely well protected against pre-emptive attack, so, individually, yes the ships are more vulnurable, but because of Doujin security procedures this weakness tends to be covered up.

How much damage would a missile carrying a 2,872kg warhead that forms a shaped charge on impact do to various parts of the ship?

Two questions --

1. What frequencies does the radios on it operate in?
2. What forms of entertainment are available to the crews?

1) Variable frequency across most microwave and radiowave channels, the exact channels are known only to Doujin.

2) Entertainment is exceptional, and includes:

Four large gyms
Six bars (including messes and wardrooms)
A cinema
A small shopping complex
and so on...

The entertainment is proportional to a Nimitz class carrier. The excess space is well used.

Two questions --

1. What frequencies does the radios on it operate in?
2. What forms of entertainment are available to the crews?

1) Variable frequency across most microwave and radiowave channels, the exact channels are known only to Doujin.

2) Entertainment is exceptional, and includes:

Four large gyms
Six bars (including messes and wardrooms)
A cinema
A small shopping complex
and so on...

The entertainment is proportional to a Nimitz class carrier. The excess space is well used.

*Sniggers* Last time I checked, I didn't think that such a thing as a microwave frequence existed. Microwaves use high speed sound waves to heat up food, after all.

Microwave communictionis what is used to beam signals to satellite. Learn before you snigger.

If I'm correct, it functions similar to a pontoon boat.

What would happen if I were to "slice off" the two side pontoons. Would it still float? Would it be unstable enough whereas I could ram something into the tower to completely tip the ship over?

Kind of. The basic idea is to allow a greater deck area with less potentional drag whilst increasing the distance of the centre of gravity to either beam, improving stability.

The Doujin's principle hull is 175 m wide, in order to allow it to accomadate the large main batteries all on the central fireline. At 980 metres long this gives a beam to length ratio of 1:8, which is in fact very reasonable even for a monohull boat.

The secondary hulls are more like outriggers than fully fledged hulls, but in order to prevent the motion of force from a broadside tipping the boat over the vessel needs to be extremely wide. The hull needs, therefore, to be a trimiran simply to allow the Doujin to move at a semi-respectable speed.

So...the boat is still reasonably stable, but it cannot fire a broadside. However, if you have managed to slice off the secondary hulls you must have done enough damage to the boat as a whole to basically combat kill it.

As for the tipping over force, a lot :wink:

Two questions --

1. What frequencies does the radios on it operate in?
2. What forms of entertainment are available to the crews?

1) Variable frequency across most microwave and radiowave channels, the exact channels are known only to Doujin.

2) Entertainment is exceptional, and includes:

Four large gyms
Six bars (including messes and wardrooms)
A cinema
A small shopping complex
and so on...

The entertainment is proportional to a Nimitz class carrier. The excess space is well used.

*Sniggers* Last time I checked, I didn't think that such a thing as a microwave frequence existed. Microwaves use high speed sound waves to heat up food, after all.

Yes, Kamata, its really a very loud sound that cooks your food, then little fairies come and wee over it and thats what gives it that nice, warm, moist taste.

Actually, microwaves are part band of the electromagnetic energy spectrum that can be used for transmitting data.

DP

TP

Thankyou, what wouldbe the chance of the Doujin shooting such a missile down were it traveling at mach 0.9 supercruise then 1.3 terminal.

Thankyou, what wouldbe the chance of the Doujin shooting such a missile down were it traveling at mach 0.9 supercruise then 1.3 terminal.

Pretty good if on alert. The speed you mentioned arent signifcantly greater than that of modern day cruise missiles, and the Doujin's were designed with weapons such as Scandanavian States's Fasthawk in mind. A combination of heavy, customised CIWS guns and missile defences mean a tough time for large weapons.

Although your weapon is fast, it would be extremely big. The Harpoon carries a 200kg warhead, the Tomohawk about 500 kg (not sure though, brain hurts a bit), so this weapon will be big. Bigger target, easier to hit. If it did get through though, it would do some damage.

I understand that, and I designed it with that in mind (as a Tomahawk would most likely bounce off or not penetrate armour) but I'm really looking for a rough percentage (so I know how many missiles I need).

The Tomahawk carries a 453 kilogram warhead.

I understand that, and I designed it with that in mind (as a Tomahawk would most likely bounce off or not penetrate armour) but I'm really looking for a rough percentage (so I know how many missiles I need).

I understand, but the percentage can vary upon a huge number of factors, including but not limited to...number of missiles deployed, path of missiles, missile profiles, effectvenss of missile coordination, effectiveness of radars, effectiveness of CIWS ammunition and missiles, number of CIWS mounts and ammunition, quality of gunners etc, hell, even the weather has an affect :?

Im afraid I cant give you an answer for that

Im talking about going up against a Doujin Class andit's systems, CIWS systems dont have gunners, and assuming I deployed 10 - 20, in good weather conditions, assuming mildly intelligent missile paths (going for key systems etc).

Just a chance to shoot them down, rough guess.

Im talking about going up against a Doujin Class andit's systems, CIWS systems dont have gunners, and assuming I deployed 10 - 20, in good weather conditions, assuming mildly intelligent missile paths (going for key systems etc).

Just a chance to shoot them down, rough guess.

By gunners I mean the crew who help acquire targets and assign the CIWS to them (which is what does happen with many ships, I had the wonderful oppurtunity to spend a few days on HMS Edinbrugh, and got shown through all these systems. Bliss). Assuming a lo-lo-lo path (best one to avoid detection and has maximum survivability, but reduces range and throws the missiles against the toughest side armour.

Assuming reasonable crew and moderate weather, a 75-80% destruction rate at close-medium-close range(reasonable when compared to the number and power of weapons installed). Of course, with an escort group and AWACs, the probability of missiles surviving to impact would be reduced.

Ok, thanks. So I'llneed a lot of missiles, or make them bigger and put a bigger engine on them.

Note: The bigger they are, the easier it is for me to shoot them down.

Note: The bigger they are, the easier it is for me to shoot them down.

Note: The bigger they are, the easier it is for me to shoot them down.

Not if they go quickly enough. I think CIWS is over rated in NS in general (not you everyone). As Chardonay aptly put it "CIWS is a last-ditch-put-your-head-between-your-legs-and-pray-if-you're-an-atheist kindof defence". But it seems to be a trend in NS that CIWS = safety. I say that the best probability you could get is 40 - 60%. chance to shoot down.

Even my big, 'slow' missile travels faster that the speed of sound and isn't actually very big compared to say, a plane, which you certainly dont have an 80% chance of shooting down.

Note: The bigger they are, the easier it is for me to shoot them down.

Not if they go quickly enough. I think CIWS is over rated in NS in general (not you everyone). As Chardonay aptly put it "CIWS is a last-ditch-put-your-head-between-your-legs-and-pray-if-you're-an-atheist kindof defence". But it seems to be a trend in NS that CIWS = safety. I say that the best probability you could get is 40 - 60%. chance to shoot down.

Even my big, 'slow' missile travels faster that the speed of sound and isn't actually very big compared to say, a plane, which you certainly dont have an 80% chance of shooting down.

A plane maneuvers a lot, missiles tend not to. Furthermore, the Phalanx CIWS can respond to calculate and repsond to a firing solution in less than 1.5 seconds.. at least as far as I know.

What would a LOSAT-type (Line-of-Sight/Anti-Tank) missile do to a Doujin. Of course modified for anti-ship warfare and probably a kinetic kill vehicle.

The LOSAT was originally fairly small but it'd have to be enlargened to be a suitable anti-shipping weapon.

It'd still be fairly small compared to other anti-ship missiles but it'd be alot faster and it would have to be fired at a direct line or near to it at the ship (which wouldn't be hard to do using the ship's speed data, wind data, etc. and a moving missile launching turret).
It could also incorporate an explosive charge at the rear of the missile. The kinetic force would rupture through the armor and the explosive warhead would at least create some suitable hole... I could be very wrong though... And a barrage (not hard to do) of these might possible bring down a Doujin, taking into effect some may not hit their exact target and CIWS could maybe take some down. But CIWS would be useless at ranges under a km or so where, if this LOSAT-type weapon was used, the Phalanx computer would've calculated where to shoot after the weapon's already hit or too close to where it has to maneuver too much to get to it within time (Not sure about that).


Hmm, i wonder what'd happen if you had a massive cruise missile-type anti-ship missile outfitted with a heavy electronics-warfare suite just for taking out the Doujin. It'd be pretty damn expensive but it'd render their CIWS useless, for the most part, since by the time they switched to another radar frequency it'd be too late (That is, of course, if they use radar)...

Its only a bit of guessing and stipulation though, so I don't know, many could be so wrong I may seem like a drooling retard, but, hey that's alright.

OOC: Why is such a large ship needed? Wouldn't ships with longer range guns, but less armor and less size, be more effective?

Also, for killing it, would a plasma warhead that released the plasma, and then detonated it, be more effective than KE warheads, because the plasma would spread out into these crevices that filter the explosion away?

Soviet Bloc:
have you been reading my mind again? i had been thinking of a hypervelocity LOSAT type round to be fired from the MLRS's on my Valkyrie criuser, if you make it big enough you might just be able to get an semi decetn range out of them, esspecially if you use a 2 stage lance setup.

As to the EW missile, i have soem ideas (how many MALDs could you fit inside a tomahawk? ok maybe not the actual RL MALD but something similar, or maybe towed decoys... Honorverse ghost rider here i come minus the space tech of course)

How would an armored cruise missile fare? I think the Moskit cruise missile has armor against 20mm systems and has erratic manuevers in its flight path, though against such a large ship I would assume unless it targets specific parts of the ship-CIWS weapons perhaps-then nothing is going to happen. Unless it is large.

Assuming one deployed a HARM type missile in the area to clear radars, how would a cruise missile barage fare?

I just did some calculations from physics class and there is something wrong with the displacement.

equation used
volume (under water in feet) x 62.4 ( amount 1 cubic foot of water weighs)
got volume by
length x width x draft

this is then divided by 2,000 to get it in tons. I got a displacement of 8.56 million tons, far more than 1.8 million. I did take my original answer and multiply it by 2/3 since the the whole ship isn't at the maximum beam. it would help to have an average beam posted here.

Well, according to my calculations, with the weight posted, your ship sinks, I recomend you change it.

Lol, Crookfur. Yeah, I had been thinking about one for awhile but I haven't really gotten anywhere with it. But wouldn't one work really well on a Doujin? At least I'm thinking so.

[Sicily, I highly recommend you not argue with Freethinker over the technical aspects of this or any ship, he's studying to become a marine engineer and knows his stuff.]

Honestly, if either of them made a mistake, it'll come out. But I think it isnt weight that determines what sink/floats, it's density. The air inside ships provides the lowering of density to allow ships to float.

You can't just get the underwater volume of the ship by taking length x width x draft. The volume of the ship underwater isn't a rectangle. And the bottomside of a ship is NOT a rectangle.

I just did some calculations from physics class and there is something wrong with the displacement.

equation used
volume (under water in feet) x 62.4 ( amount 1 cubic foot of water weighs)
got volume by
length x width x draft

this is then divided by 2,000 to get it in tons. I got a displacement of 8.56 million tons, far more than 1.8 million. I did take my original answer and multiply it by 2/3 since the the whole ship isn't at the maximum beam. it would help to have an average beam posted here.

Well, according to my calculations, with the weight posted, your ship sinks, I recomend you change it.

Well, firstly Id recommend using 1 cubic metre = 1 metric ton, its safer, secondly, the formula works well only if the hull of the Doujin is a rectangle, I can safely say it isnt.

You actual basic physics is fine, that the amount of water displaced gives you the rough estimate of the ship's weight, hence 'displacement' as the given value for a non-cargo ships weight, (cargo ships have their weight measured by their cargo-volume space, it gets complicated, but anyway.)

However, it falls down, badly, when employed to the ship's hull, especially the streamlined, trimiran, slightly hollow hull of the Doujin. If the Doujin had a rectangular hull with the dimensions listed, then its draft would be 6 metres (or there abouts).

However, the sheer bulk of the Doujin means that the hull has to be streamlined, very streamlined, to reduce the drag the water creates on the ship in order to allow it to move. Another point is that, as a trimiran, her hull does not occupy the same area as all of the deck housing (ie between the primary and secondary hulls), there will be significant gaps where there is no hull, to be blunt. Thirdly, the engines of the Doujin basically require the intake of thousands of tons of water a second through the nose of the vessel and these pipes travel the length of the ship. although not a major effect, does reduce by a few ten thousands of tons of water the actual liquid displaced.

Hence why the draft is comparatively high, it is basically to allow the Doujin to move.

And Fluffywuffy, density is related to weight, (or, to be technically correct, mass) and in order for an object to float the boat or ship needs to be able to displace enough water so the counter-reaction from the ocean (or lake) keeps the ship afloat.

I just did some calculations from physics class and there is something wrong with the displacement.

equation used
volume (under water in feet) x 62.4 ( amount 1 cubic foot of water weighs)
got volume by
length x width x draft

this is then divided by 2,000 to get it in tons. I got a displacement of 8.56 million tons, far more than 1.8 million. I did take my original answer and multiply it by 2/3 since the the whole ship isn't at the maximum beam. it would help to have an average beam posted here.


Well, according to my calculations, with the weight posted, your ship sinks, I recomend you change it.

Well, firstly Id recommend using 1 cubic metre = 1 metric ton, its safer, secondly, the formula works well only if the hull of the Doujin is a rectangle, I can safely say it isnt.

You actual basic physics is fine, that the amount of water displaced gives you the rough estimate of the ship's weight, hence 'displacement' as the given value for a non-cargo ships weight, (cargo ships have their weight measured by their cargo-volume space, it gets complicated, but anyway.)

However, it falls down, badly, when employed to the ship's hull, especially the streamlined, trimiran, slightly hollow hull of the Doujin. If the Doujin had a rectangular hull with the dimensions listed, then its draft would be 6 metres (or there abouts).

However, the sheer bulk of the Doujin means that the hull has to be streamlined, very streamlined, to reduce the drag the water creates on the ship in order to allow it to move. Another point is that, as a trimiran, her hull does not occupy the same area as all of the deck housing (ie between the primary and secondary hulls), there will be significant gaps where there is no hull, to be blunt. Thirdly, the engines of the Doujin basically require the intake of thousands of tons of water a second through the nose of the vessel and these pipes travel the length of the ship. although not a major effect, does reduce by a few ten thousands of tons of water the actual liquid displaced.

Hence why the draft is comparatively high, it is basically to allow the Doujin to move.

And Fluffywuffy, density is related to weight, (or, to be technically correct, mass) and in order for an object to float the boat or ship needs to be able to displace enough water so the counter-reaction from the ocean (or lake) keeps the ship afloat.

that is why I multiplied by 2/3, I realized that would provide for a streamlined shape.

To float it has to be able to displace its own weight in water

Could my question be answered? Sorry to sound pushy here.

OOC: Why is such a large ship needed? Wouldn't ships with longer range guns, but less armor and less size, be more effective?

Also, for killing it, would a plasma warhead that released the plasma, and then detonated it, be more effective than KE warheads, because the plasma would spread out into these crevices that filter the explosion away?

OOC: Interesting questions.

Firstly, for larger guns, it would be extremely difficult for any larger calibre weapon to be fitted on a warship of this size. The guns fitted on the Doujin are the largest it can carry and still maintain a reasonable firing rate. It could physically hold larger, fewer guns, but then the firing rate would be so slow as to make the guns practically useless. If the ship was smaller then, then these problems are multiplied. Less armour speaks for itself. these are vessels that in any firefight are going to be hit, most likely repeatedly with very large and very powerful weapons.

As for plasma, protection against this wasnt considered a priority as Plasma based weaponry sits in the 2040-2050 tech-bracket, as opposed to the Doujin's 2005-2010 tech-slot. Again, like most explosive missiles, it would have to be a lucky hit to be able to break thrugh both armour belts and even then cause damage beyond a localised area within the ship.

Lol, Crookfur. Yeah, I had been thinking about one for awhile but I haven't really gotten anywhere with it. But wouldn't one work really well on a Doujin? At least I'm thinking so.

Well im was goign to post a few ideas on the OMP board but it seems to have died suddenly...

Lol, Crookfur. Yeah, I had been thinking about one for awhile but I haven't really gotten anywhere with it. But wouldn't one work really well on a Doujin? At least I'm thinking so.

Well im was goign to post a few ideas on the OMP board but it seems to have died suddenly...

Well, the boards moved, didnt they?

i thought that but i forgot the new addy...

1. Those things to the front ends of the hulls are anchors, aren't they? Do they actually do anything? It's just the Doujin is so big they seem almost useless.
2. Is the Doujin big enough to be worth using a nuke on? It'd presumably be travelling in the centre of a battlegroup, so a nuke could take them all out, no trouble. Even if there were defences, a series of nukes (as ICBMs)flying 10 km behind each other, exploding closer and closer should knock out waves of defences.

1. Those things to the front ends of the hulls are anchors, aren't they? Do they actually do anything? It's just the Doujin is so big they seem almost useless.
2. Is the Doujin big enough to be worth using a nuke on? It'd presumably be travelling in the centre of a battlegroup, so a nuke could take them all out, no trouble. Even if there were defences, a series of nukes (as ICBMs)flying 10 km behind each other, exploding closer and closer should knock out waves of defences.

1) Well, yes they do, but they are only deployed if and when the ship is stationary outside of a port (such as being resupplied with weapons). They can be used in an emergency stop but most likely several of them will be lost for good if used in such a manner.

2) Nuclear weapons are the cheap way out, so to speak. Newer versions (the batch 2 design) carry defences against IC and SL-BM as well as carrying their own nuclear detterent. The most likely consequence of using a nuke on the Doujin however, is full scale nuclear retaliation, so its generally not considered such a great tactic.

2) Nuclear weapons are the cheap way out, so to speak. Newer versions (the batch 2 design) carry defences against IC and SL-BM as well as carrying their own nuclear detterent. The most likely consequence of using a nuke on the Doujin however, is full scale nuclear retaliation, so its generally not considered such a great tactic.
Oh yes. Still, war's (almost) never a good idea.

I hope Freethinkers doesn't mind me butting in, but I think I can help clear up some misconceptions. A common misconception in the use of high explosives on naval vessels. Against the armored belt of a naval vessel, you want penetration, not a giant fireball.

And on CIWS, there are different grades. Phalanx<Goalkeeper/Gatekeeper<Millenium Gun. I also utilitze MTHELS and RAMS, but those are about 2020 tech, so I don't know if Doujin does. To get past Phalanx CIWS, just surface skim, like the Sunburn Missile. The next generations have added skimming kill possibilities, but it remains the hardest missile to strike (fast and low). A RAMS system will compromise that approach, but RAMS has limitted ammo per volley, being a bank of missiles rather than a gatling gun.

A NOTE: I've maintained a trimaran dreadnought since October (in EXTREMELY small numbers). For proof, here's an upgrade thread (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=124217&highlight=) I have (can't find when I built them, though, I think it's gone from the forums).

*nods*

All points are correct, and the part about CIWS is interesting.

Phalanx was one of a number of anti-missile system fitted to the original design, mostly for cost and size reasons, but on newer versions these have been replaced by an indeginous system which deploys both a RAM like missile launcher and a quad battery of 40mm rapid-fire guns, for use against heavier missiles. The inefficiency of Phalanx was highlighted against Allanea, where a sizeable number of Yakhont-3's were able to get through and cause some damage to the Doujin, even when it was travelling with a battlegroup. Its other anti-missile defences (such as medium and close range AM missiles and 3" heavy AM guns) have also been upgraded, as have the fire coordination systems.

2) Nuclear weapons are the cheap way out, so to speak. Newer versions (the batch 2 design) carry defences against IC and SL-BM as well as carrying their own nuclear detterent. The most likely consequence of using a nuke on the Doujin however, is full scale nuclear retaliation, so its generally not considered such a great tactic.
Oh yes. Still, war's (almost) never a good idea.

The easiest method is not to piss off Doujin :wink:

2) Nuclear weapons are the cheap way out, so to speak. Newer versions (the batch 2 design) carry defences against IC and SL-BM as well as carrying their own nuclear detterent. The most likely consequence of using a nuke on the Doujin however, is full scale nuclear retaliation, so its generally not considered such a great tactic.
Oh yes. Still, war's (almost) never a good idea.

The easiest method is not to piss off Doujin :wink:

Great tactic. Works every time.

A note on Nuclear Weapons: Yes, they kill EVERYTHING. Yes, you will suffer for any use of them. It's not worth it unless you're against the wall, over the barrel, and being set upon by raging apes in heat.

Jim, I do not believe anyone has asked about the armour itself - yet one woudl think that would be a very important question.

*shrug*

It seems like everyone has just overlooked the fact of ScramJet shells and missiles...

For example the ScramJet Cruise Missile (http://www.spacedaily.com/images/scramjet-darpa-art-bg.jpg) has been tested by the Navy at over Mach 6.5. A missile at M6.5 is pretty much invulnerable to CIWS, and with a large warhead can cause a lot of damage.

Has anyone considered the ScramJet Shell (http://www.aviationnow.com/content/publication/awst/20010827/images/aw922.jpg)? We've been tested things for a long time, and these shells have recently exceeded Mach 7.1, my Shinoxian ScramJet Shell can travel at Mach 8....

If you use the right technology, you can pretty much secure the end of this ship...

stupid question but...

how meny bathrooms does it have? and it has a global range radio right?

It seems like everyone has just overlooked the fact of ScramJet shells and missiles...

For example the ScramJet Cruise Missile (http://www.spacedaily.com/images/scramjet-darpa-art-bg.jpg) has been tested by the Navy at over Mach 6.5. A missile at M6.5 is pretty much invulnerable to CIWS, and with a large warhead can cause a lot of damage.

Has anyone considered the ScramJet Shell (http://www.aviationnow.com/content/publication/awst/20010827/images/aw922.jpg)? We've been tested things for a long time, and these shells have recently exceeded Mach 7.1, my Shinoxian ScramJet Shell can travel at Mach 8....

If you use the right technology, you can pretty much secure the end of this ship...

A scramjet cruise missile with a sufficiently-sized would have to be very large in order to have a decent enough range to strike before either the Doujin or its escorts could respond. First, the missile would require a booster to reach the necessary velocity for the scramjet principle to operate. Second, at hypersonic speeds, such a missile would become almost unmaneuverable, as swift alteration of flight path would cause such turbulence as to rip the missile apart, unless said missile was fundamentally a solid shot. Scramjet shells, should they have sufficiently good fortune to strike the turrets, and somehow manage to penetrate into the magazines, might cause some damage, perhaps considerable, but that requires a fair number of factors, notably luck. Mind, the difficulty in maneuvering the Doujin would certainly improve the possibilty of striking what one might aim for, as long as one has decent long range targetting abilities (satellites, reconnaissance vehicles, over-the-horizon targetting vehicles, etc.), as long as various environmental factors are considered. Personally, I would attack from below or, as was previously mentioned, very high above (although with ballistic weapons dropped from high altitude, the miss probability would likely be quite high).

It seems like everyone has just overlooked the fact of ScramJet shells and missiles...

For example the ScramJet Cruise Missile (http://www.spacedaily.com/images/scramjet-darpa-art-bg.jpg) has been tested by the Navy at over Mach 6.5. A missile at M6.5 is pretty much invulnerable to CIWS, and with a large warhead can cause a lot of damage.

Has anyone considered the ScramJet Shell (http://www.aviationnow.com/content/publication/awst/20010827/images/aw922.jpg)? We've been tested things for a long time, and these shells have recently exceeded Mach 7.1, my Shinoxian ScramJet Shell can travel at Mach 8....

If you use the right technology, you can pretty much secure the end of this ship...

A scramjet cruise missile with a sufficiently-sized would have to be very large in order to have a decent enough range to strike before either the Doujin or its escorts could respond. First, the missile would require a booster to reach the necessary velocity for the scramjet principle to operate. Second, at hypersonic speeds, such a missile would become almost unmaneuverable, as swift alteration of flight path would cause such turbulence as to rip the missile apart, unless said missile was fundamentally a solid shot. Scramjet shells, should they have sufficiently good fortune to strike the turrets, and somehow manage to penetrate into the magazines, might cause some damage, perhaps considerable, but that requires a fair number of factors, notably luck. Mind, the difficulty in maneuvering the Doujin would certainly improve the possibilty of striking what one might aim for, as long as one has decent long range targetting abilities (satellites, reconnaissance vehicles, over-the-horizon targetting vehicles, etc.), as long as various environmental factors are considered. Personally, I would attack from below or, as was previously mentioned, very high above (although with ballistic weapons dropped from high altitude, the miss probability would likely be quite high).

You have a few goodpoints, but have you ever heard of ScramJet/Ramjet. I know it sounds funny but it this design was accepted by the Navy it would utilize the abilities of Scramjet and Ramjet power.

For example, if this missile was fired it was first be at Ramjet speed, fast but still able to be guided. Scramjet alone has a tendecy to lose speed at ranges, Ramjet does not. This would allow it to travel longer ranges, once the missile entered a set range, Scramjet would be activated and it would accelerate.

On your comment, about Scramjet Shells, these shells are travelling at Mach 8. Do you have any idea of what a projectile at that speed would do to a ship?

The Doujin is well armored, but it could not take too many shells in the right place.

Isselmere, here's a link for you.

ScramJet Missile (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/07/020711075955.htm)

According to this, the missile would have a range of 600 nautical miles over Mach 6...

Shinoxia, dear, are you going to get in range of the Doujin's 30" ETC turrets, which fire SCRAMJet shells(missiles)? :x

Shinoxia, dear, are you going to get in range of the Doujin's 30" ETC turrets, which fire SCRAMJet shells(missiles)? :x

Oh...your right...

Wait a minute, I wonder if subs can fire cruise missiles? :wink:

Shinoxia, dear, are you going to get in range of the Doujin's 30" ETC turrets, which fire SCRAMJet shells(missiles)? :x

Just curious, when did you adopt the ScramJet? Most people on NS don't know about them, and the only nations I can think of that use them are DM and GR.

OOC: Well, the doujin's have always deployed SCRAMjet rounds as part of its arsenal, and these have been used in the Doujin's deployments so far.

I believe the technology was taken from Scandanavian States, who deploys these things ad naseum, and from doujin I absorbed SCRAMjet ammunition into my own army and navy.

OOC: Well, the doujin's have always deployed SCRAMjet rounds as part of its arsenal, and these have been used in the Doujin's deployments so far.

I believe the technology was taken from Scandanavian States, who deploys these things ad naseum, and from doujin I absorbed SCRAMjet ammunition into my own army and navy.

OOC:

I see...

Well, I'm curious how the Doujin could respond to Scramjets and Scramjet missiles.

For example, if subs got into range and launches SMs, how would the Doujin respond? Because the range is 600 nautical miles, the subs wouldn't have to worry about depth charges and the Doujin's guns would not be able to hit it.

Seems like an easy way to destroy a ship to me...

OOC: In actuality, I don't know when SS adopted SCRAMJets, but I have been using them since before I 'buddied up' with Scandavian States - back in December in my first naval conflict, 'Fleet Excercise' with Seversky.

OOC: In actuality, I don't know when SS adopted SCRAMJets, but I have been using them since before I 'buddied up' with Scandavian States - back in December in my first naval conflict, 'Fleet Excercise' with Seversky.

Darn it, I thought I was special... :wink:

OOC: Well, the doujin's have always deployed SCRAMjet rounds as part of its arsenal, and these have been used in the Doujin's deployments so far.

I believe the technology was taken from Scandanavian States, who deploys these things ad naseum, and from doujin I absorbed SCRAMjet ammunition into my own army and navy.

OOC:

I see...

Well, I'm curious how the Doujin could respond to Scramjets and Scramjet missiles.

For example, if subs got into range and launches SMs, how would the Doujin respond? Because the range is 600 nautical miles, the subs wouldn't have to worry about depth charges and the Doujin's guns would not be able to hit it.

Seems like an easy way to destroy a ship to me...

Well, the Doujin has the ability to shoot down missiles up to about 250 km distant, alongside its CIWS it also contains a considerable number of medium and short range SA/AM weapons, and the greater size and power avaliable means the Doujin can carry considerably potent active and passive radar array, which does give it options to destroy the missile even if its own CIWS guns don't have the capacity to destroy it.

Remember, at Mach 6.5 even the slightest disruption or impact will carry significant kinetic energy due to the closing velocity, and an accurate shot from the Doujin (or more likely on of its AAW escorts) is both reasonable and almost 100% garaunteed to destroy the missile, assuming a direct hit.

Although shells are much harder to shoot down, the Doujin does have the capacity to strike back with both its main guns and its formidable missiles armament. Then it becomes a case of survivability, and the Doujin in that situation would win hands down.

Dambusters bombs? (how would the work, if used en masse?)

Isselmere, here's a link for you.

ScramJet Missile (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/07/020711075955.htm)

According to this, the missile would have a range of 600 nautical miles over Mach 6...

Questions:

a) How big is it?
b) It does, like the Russian Moskit, Oniks, and Yakhont missiles, require rocket boost to reach a speed at which the ramjet can operate, which, in the case of the Yakhont at least, increases the missile mass by one fifth (proposed air-launch version massing (wc?) 2,500 kg, surface/sub launch with a mass of 3 tonnes). How big/massive would the booster have to be for the monster you propose (a decently warhead, remember), even if it could convert in flight from ramjet to scramjet operation?

According to the following, the Arrow 2 (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/arrow2/) ATBM can attain a velocity of Mach 9, with a service altitude of 50 km. As the proposed US Navy scramjet missile attains its maximum speed within its minimum interception altitude (at 27.432 km), it can be knocked down. Now, if the scramjet missile performed a lo-hi-lo approach, which would like be detrimental to its range, it could sneak within the Arrow 2 or similar SAM's launch envelope and strike something. But even a 2,000 lb./1 tonne bomb wouldn't do too much damage to the Doujin, even with a penetrator warhead, unless it hit something vital, like a turret with all that wonderful ammunition.

You have a very good idea, but...

That's why I would prefer either to strike from far above, perhaps a scramjet missile that operates outside of the SAM altitude envelope before plummeting, or below (as in directly below). Now the directly below option would be virtually guaranteed as suicidal, but it might be worth a go...

OOC:

Surely if you could get a mine field layed down in front of the Doujin, it would take too long for it to turn to avoid said minefield. Say some form of missile-launched naval mine. Might not do a lot of damage, but enough of them could damage propulsion and steerage.

OOC: Well, the doujin's have always deployed SCRAMjet rounds as part of its arsenal, and these have been used in the Doujin's deployments so far.

I believe the technology was taken from Scandanavian States, who deploys these things ad naseum, and from doujin I absorbed SCRAMjet ammunition into my own army and navy.

OOC:

I see...

Well, I'm curious how the Doujin could respond to Scramjets and Scramjet missiles.

For example, if subs got into range and launches SMs, how would the Doujin respond? Because the range is 600 nautical miles, the subs wouldn't have to worry about depth charges and the Doujin's guns would not be able to hit it.

Seems like an easy way to destroy a ship to me...

Well, the Doujin has the ability to shoot down missiles up to about 250 km distant, alongside its CIWS it also contains a considerable number of medium and short range SA/AM weapons, and the greater size and power avaliable means the Doujin can carry considerably potent active and passive radar array, which does give it options to destroy the missile even if its own CIWS guns don't have the capacity to destroy it.

Remember, at Mach 6.5 even the slightest disruption or impact will carry significant kinetic energy due to the closing velocity, and an accurate shot from the Doujin (or more likely on of its AAW escorts) is both reasonable and almost 100% garaunteed to destroy the missile, assuming a direct hit.

Although shells are much harder to shoot down, the Doujin does have the capacity to strike back with both its main guns and its formidable missiles armament. Then it becomes a case of survivability, and the Doujin in that situation would win hands down.

To answer you...

Kazakstan has a good point, CIWS is overrated and normally only has about a 60% chance of taking out the enemy missile.

Keep in mind that the missiles CIWS is designed to take out are generally slow moving, not Mach 6. According to the article I posted above, scientists were able to accelerate this missile up to mach 6.5 at 600 nautical miles.

CIWS will have a VERY hard time destroying that.

When I'm within 600 nautical miles or so with subs firing missiles at Mach 6.5, I don't think you would have a very high success rate...

You mentioned that the [i]Doujin[i]'s armament and ability to return fire would increase it's survivability, well, I'm firing from subs. I'm outside the range of depth charges and your guns could not harm the subs.

More than likely this strategy would succede in at least doing heavy damage to the giant ship.

How would a railgun do? My current railgun on my King Shark class ship (very small compared to the uber ships of other navies-I'd imagine much stealthier too) has the capability of firing a 2,000 kg penetrator at mach 13.15 (although it must have a massive current going through it-something on the order of 20 million-ish amps). How would that fare against the ship?

Dambusters bombs? (how would the work, if used en masse?)

Interesting idea. Probably would work reasonably well, especially as you would be causing under as well as above water damage, but it would depend on the warhead fitted. You probably wouldnt sink one, remember this is a trimiran so you would been hitting a secondary hull considerably, but there would be a significant amount of water absorbed between the outer and inner armour layers, resulting in significant manuervability problems.

But the main problem is, of course, flying so low and so near a well armed target that, even on its own, carries an aerial battlegroup.

What kind of anti-sup equipment does the Doujin carry? And that of it's typical battlegroup?

OOC:

Surely if you could get a mine field layed down in front of the Doujin, it would take too long for it to turn to avoid said minefield. Say some form of missile-launched naval mine. Might not do a lot of damage, but enough of them could damage propulsion and steerage.

Either that or naval mines firing supercavitating solid shot torpedoes, just to pierce it in enough places to slow it down and perhaps hit something vital.

OOC:

Surely if you could get a mine field layed down in front of the Doujin, it would take too long for it to turn to avoid said minefield. Say some form of missile-launched naval mine. Might not do a lot of damage, but enough of them could damage propulsion and steerage.

Either that or naval mines firing supercavitating solid shot torpedoes, just to pierce it in enough places to slow it down and perhaps hit something vital.

You just gave me the idea I need for a new line of CAPTOR mines.

How would a railgun do? My current railgun on my King Shark class ship (very small compared to the uber ships of other navies-I'd imagine much stealthier too) has the capability of firing a 2,000 kg penetrator at mach 13.15 (although it must have a massive current going through it-something on the order of 20 million-ish amps). How would that fare against the ship?

Depends on the range of the railgun...and wouldnt the recoil from that crush the launch vessel?

Isselmere, here's a link for you.

ScramJet Missile (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/07/020711075955.htm)

According to this, the missile would have a range of 600 nautical miles over Mach 6...

Questions:

a) How big is it?
b) It does, like the Russian Moskit, Oniks, and Yakhont missiles, require rocket boost to reach a speed at which the ramjet can operate, which, in the case of the Yakhont at least, increases the missile mass by one fifth (proposed air-launch version massing (wc?) 2,500 kg, surface/sub launch with a mass of 3 tonnes). How big/massive would the booster have to be for the monster you propose (a decently warhead, remember), even if it could convert in flight from ramjet to scramjet operation?

According to the following, the Arrow 2 (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/arrow2/) ATBM can attain a velocity of Mach 9, with a service altitude of 50 km. As the proposed US Navy scramjet missile attains its maximum speed within its minimum interception altitude (at 27.432 km), it can be knocked down. Now, if the scramjet missile performed a lo-hi-lo approach, which would like be detrimental to its range, it could sneak within the Arrow 2 or similar SAM's launch envelope and strike something. But even a 2,000 lb./1 tonne bomb wouldn't do too much damage to the Doujin, even with a penetrator warhead, unless it hit something vital, like a turret with all that wonderful ammunition.

You have a very good idea, but...

That's why I would prefer either to strike from far above, perhaps a scramjet missile that operates outside of the SAM altitude envelope before plummeting, or below (as in directly below). Now the directly below option would be virtually guaranteed as suicidal, but it might be worth a go...

1. Haha, you've got me there, I have been researching this missile and I am having a hard time finding specs...

2. Yes, the Arrow can be knocked down because it begins to lose velocity at distances. At Mach 9, the missile would not be able to turn at all, making it travel at a straight path until it meets it's target, making it vulnerable to CIWS.

If you read the article, it said the Scramjet Missile could attain very high altitudes at this speed, it could travel far in the air, then come down directly on it's target...

Attacking from the air seems like a good idea. If a Scramjet missile could be fired from a plane, it would be very lethal.

Or perhaps sneaking in a SF team in small subs, having them escape, then planting satchel over the hull of the Doujin...hey it worked for the Italians in WWII! :wink:

OOC: Well, the doujin's have always deployed SCRAMjet rounds as part of its arsenal, and these have been used in the Doujin's deployments so far.

I believe the technology was taken from Scandanavian States, who deploys these things ad naseum, and from doujin I absorbed SCRAMjet ammunition into my own army and navy.

OOC:

I see...

Well, I'm curious how the Doujin could respond to Scramjets and Scramjet missiles.

For example, if subs got into range and launches SMs, how would the Doujin respond? Because the range is 600 nautical miles, the subs wouldn't have to worry about depth charges and the Doujin's guns would not be able to hit it.

Seems like an easy way to destroy a ship to me...

Well, the Doujin has the ability to shoot down missiles up to about 250 km distant, alongside its CIWS it also contains a considerable number of medium and short range SA/AM weapons, and the greater size and power avaliable means the Doujin can carry considerably potent active and passive radar array, which does give it options to destroy the missile even if its own CIWS guns don't have the capacity to destroy it.

Remember, at Mach 6.5 even the slightest disruption or impact will carry significant kinetic energy due to the closing velocity, and an accurate shot from the Doujin (or more likely on of its AAW escorts) is both reasonable and almost 100% garaunteed to destroy the missile, assuming a direct hit.

Although shells are much harder to shoot down, the Doujin does have the capacity to strike back with both its main guns and its formidable missiles armament. Then it becomes a case of survivability, and the Doujin in that situation would win hands down.

To answer you...

Kazakstan has a good point, CIWS is overrated and normally only has about a 60% chance of taking out the enemy missile.

Keep in mind that the missiles CIWS is designed to take out are generally slow moving, not Mach 6. According to the article I posted above, scientists were able to accelerate this missile up to mach 6.5 at 600 nautical miles.

CIWS will have a VERY hard time destroying that.

When I'm within 600 nautical miles or so with subs firing missiles at Mach 6.5, I don't think you would have a very high success rate...

You mentioned that the Doujin[i]'s armament and ability to return fire would increase it's survivability, well, I'm firing from subs. I'm outside the range of depth charges and your guns could not harm the subs.

More than likely this strategy would succede in at least doing heavy damage to the giant ship.

Right, sod the CIWS, we are not talking about them, we are talking about systems like PAAMS and the ASTER missile (or, more specifically, weapons developed from these for hypersonic weaponry.) The Doujin is not simply a number-wanked Yamato, unlike some of its rivals, it is a modern designed for the NS combat enviroment, it carries a considerable number of [i]highly accurate, ranged missiles designed to destroy missiles far away from its battlegroup.

Using harder to destroy shells then you are going to need a surface firing platform. In which case you have a naval duel. In which case the superior armour scheme on the Doujin is going to see it come out on top.

EDIT: Ouch

so bouncing bombs would be more efficient during a large scale combined assault. I forgot they have a very poor range.

Jordaxia: Effective enough to cause problems for a Doujin., but it would be almost suicide for any pilot on the job.

And my apologies, Shinoxia, for the large sized writing, cos I cant get it to budge.

Minefields are the cheap man's way to disable a Doujin. Even the threat of mines is sufficent to delay a Doujin. These things are slow to stop and take even longer to get going. Mine warfare is a good bet to keep a Doujin out of the conflict area.

My ideas for destroying the Doujin.

1. Use stealthy NS subs to get within 500 nautical miles of the Doujin, then launch ScramJet Missiles to hit it.

2. Using subs, use supercaptivated torpedoes to try to hit an important part of the Doujin. Any way to fire Scramjets underwater? :wink:

3. Insert an SF team via mini subs and have them plant satchel on the hull of the Doujin. The Italians did this in WWII and destroyed two British battleships and had naval superiority for a time...they failed to exploit this.

4. Use a new form of 'Bouncing Bomb' with enough explosives to damage the ship. The Brits did this in WWII and destroyed a dam, thought by many to be immune to bombs.

5. Use ScramJet missiles from the air and see what you can do.

6. Use a stealthy sub, loaded with high explosives, and run it into the Doujin.

My ideas for destroying the Doujin.

1. Use stealthy NS subs to get within 500 nautical miles of the Doujin, then launch ScramJet Missiles to hit it.

2. Using subs, use supercaptivated torpedoes to try to hit an important part of the Doujin. Any way to fire Scramjets underwater? :wink:

3. Insert an SF team via mini subs and have them plant satchel on the hull of the Doujin. The Italians did this in WWII and destroyed two British battleships and had naval superiority for a time...they failed to exploit this.

4. Use a new form of 'Bouncing Bomb' with enough explosives to damage the ship. The Brits did this in WWII and destroyed a dam, thought by many to be immune to bombs.

5. Use ScramJet missiles from the air and see what you can do.

6. Use a stealthy sub, loaded with high explosives, and run it into the Doujin.

Jordaxia: Effective enough to cause problems for a Doujin., but it would be almost suicide for any pilot on the job.

And my apologies, Shinoxia, for the large sized writing, cos I cant get it to budge.

Minefields are the cheap man's way to disable a Doujin. Even the threat of mines is sufficent to delay a Doujin. These things are slow to stop and take even longer to get going. Mine warfare is a good bet to keep a Doujin out of the conflict area.

Sorry if this has been answered before, but the forum is acting up (again) and I don't think I could get through the last two pages.

1) How would a Doujin fare against a, lets say, 5 megaton nuclear missile going off in the immediate vacenity (assuming its not shot down by PD).

2) What are its defences (if any) against submarine attacks aside from the no-doubt heavy sonar.

3) Assume that a Doujin had the misfortune of not detecting a missile submarine, and proceeded to sail over the sub's position. If this sub was to fire a missile directly upward, and somehow detonated the weapon, what type of damage would the Doujin incur if
a) the missile exploded directly underneath the main hull
b) the missile exploded between the main hull and one of the outer hulls

I know this scenario is rather improbable, but I'd like to know all the same.

Jordaxia: Effective enough to cause problems for a Doujin., but it would be almost suicide for any pilot on the job.

And my apologies, Shinoxia, for the large sized writing, cos I cant get it to budge.

Minefields are the cheap man's way to disable a Doujin. Even the threat of mines is sufficent to delay a Doujin. These things are slow to stop and take even longer to get going. Mine warfare is a good bet to keep a Doujin out of the conflict area.

No problem.

Hey I'm still interested in using subs within a 500 nautical mile radius launching ScramJet missiles. You mentioned that the Doujin had the capabilities to shoot down this missile, but at Mach 6.5, it doesn't seem likely.

If you read the article I posted, you would have seen that it said:

The test, performed in a wind tunnel at NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, Va., demonstrated robust operation of the engine at simulated hypersonic cruise conditions (Mach 6.5 at 90,000 feet altitude).

Well, if a sub launched the missile straight up, would it not come straight down on the Doujin and it's deck? I'm curious.

OOC: The Doujin's sonar would cause problems for small submarines that intend on getting near the hull.

And, the general armada (yes, armada - not battlegroup) that accompanies a Doujin is as follows..

1 Doujin Class
2 Leviathon Class
3 Thunder Child Class Mk.2 Refit
1 Lunar Class Aircraft Carrier
2 Infusion Class Aircraft Carrier
5 Warspite Class SSGN
15 Astron Class SSN
10 Tigershark Class AOE
10 River Class AOE
10 Clan Grant Class AOE
10 Norasia Class AOE
15 Centaur Class (Modified) DDG
10 Meteora Class DDG
10 Mackensen Class Battleships
35 Class Destroyers
8 Africa Class Minesweeper/layer
7 Saviour Class Medical Ships
Total: 154 ships

OOC: The Doujin's sonar would cause problems for small submarines that intend on getting near the hull.

And, the general armada (yes, armada - not battlegroup) that accompanies a Doujin is as follows..

1 Doujin Class
2 Leviathon Class
3 Thunder Child Class Mk.2 Refit
1 Lunar Class Aircraft Carrier
2 Infusion Class Aircraft Carrier
5 Warspite Class SSGN
15 Astron Class SSN
10 Tigershark Class AOE
10 River Class AOE
10 Clan Grant Class AOE
10 Norasia Class AOE
15 Centaur Class (Modified) DDG
10 Meteora Class DDG
10 Mackensen Class Battleships
35 Class Destroyers
8 Africa Class Minesweeper/layer
7 Saviour Class Medical Ships
Total: 154 ships


Doujin, perhaps you know of the Manta minisub?

This could be launched from the torpedo hulls of a large sub and could go right underneath the Doujin, as Skeelzania said, fire it's missiles straight into the air, and cause a significant amount of damage to the Doujin.

Because of it's small size and of it's stealth features, it would be extremely difficult to pick up on sonar.

Not the most likely of situations, but...

OOC: The Doujin's sonar would cause problems for small submarines that intend on getting near the hull.

And, the general armada (yes, armada - not battlegroup) that accompanies a Doujin is as follows..

1 Doujin Class
2 Leviathon Class
3 Thunder Child Class Mk.2 Refit
1 Lunar Class Aircraft Carrier
2 Infusion Class Aircraft Carrier
5 Warspite Class SSGN
15 Astron Class SSN
10 Tigershark Class AOE
10 River Class AOE
10 Clan Grant Class AOE
10 Norasia Class AOE
15 Centaur Class (Modified) DDG
10 Meteora Class DDG
10 Mackensen Class Battleships
35 Class Destroyers
8 Africa Class Minesweeper/layer
7 Saviour Class Medical Ships
Total: 154 ships


Doujin, perhaps you know of the Manta minisub?

This could be launched from the torpedo hulls of a large sub and could go right underneath the Doujin, as Skeelzania said, fire it's missiles straight into the air, and cause a significant amount of damage to the Doujin.

Because of it's small size and of it's stealth features, it would be extremely difficult to pick up on sonar.

Not the most likely of situations, but...

OOC: The Doujin's sonar would cause problems for small submarines that intend on getting near the hull.

And, the general armada (yes, armada - not battlegroup) that accompanies a Doujin is as follows..

1 Doujin Class
2 Leviathon Class
3 Thunder Child Class Mk.2 Refit
1 Lunar Class Aircraft Carrier
2 Infusion Class Aircraft Carrier
5 Warspite Class SSGN
15 Astron Class SSN
10 Tigershark Class AOE
10 River Class AOE
10 Clan Grant Class AOE
10 Norasia Class AOE
15 Centaur Class (Modified) DDG
10 Meteora Class DDG
10 Mackensen Class Battleships
35 Class Destroyers
8 Africa Class Minesweeper/layer
7 Saviour Class Medical Ships
Total: 154 ships


Doujin, perhaps you know of the Manta minisub?

This could be launched from the torpedo hulls of a large sub and could go right underneath the Doujin, as Skeelzania said, fire it's missiles straight into the air, and cause a significant amount of damage to the Doujin.

Because of it's small size and of it's stealth features, it would be extremely difficult to pick up on sonar.

Not the most likely of situations, but...

stupid question but...

how many bathrooms does it have? and it has a global range radio right? how effect are Space-Launched Tungsten rods (Aka Rods from God) against it?

How accurate are the SCRAMjet shells/missiles used by the Doujin?

How accurate are the SCRAMjet shells/missiles used by the Doujin?

Not trying to go out of my place but I can answer this question.

As of now (I hope), Shinoxia is the only nation to use ScramJet Missiles, but for your question on ScramJet Shells, ScramJets are just as accurate as regular shells and travel at speeds in excess of Mach 7.

Some are designed to pentetrate, then explode, others explode on impact. Run a search on Google.

I know this is beginning to pull itself slightly off topic, but here goes anyway. Wouldn't a shell moving at mach 6-7 go straight through a ship?

stupid question but...

how many bathrooms does it have? and it has a global range radio right? how effect are Space-Launched Tungsten rods (Aka Rods from God) against it?

Right:

1) It has many bathrooms. A lot. So there :P
2) It has a global communications facility, yes.
3) Kinetic solid-state weapons are the most effective weapons against a Doujin, and with sufficent accuracy and an avoidance of defenses are the only real weapon capable of penetrating the multiple layers of high density armour in order to cause some damage to the Doujin. For a nation such as yourself, they are the best bet for damaging one and forcing its withdrawal from a conflict.

I know this is beginning to pull itself slightly off topic, but here goes anyway. Wouldn't a shell moving at mach 6-7 go straight through a ship?

A shell or a missile?

How accurate are the SCRAMjet shells/missiles used by the Doujin?

Not trying to go out of my place but I can answer this question.

As of now (I hope), Shinoxia is the only nation to use ScramJet Missiles, but for your question on ScramJet Shells, ScramJets are just as accurate as regular shells and travel at speeds in excess of Mach 7.

Some are designed to pentetrate, then explode, others explode on impact. Run a search on Google.

Ill have to introduce you to Scandanavian States :D

either, but I was asking about a shell, specifically.

Depends on the shell size and type, whether or not it is armour peircing or high explosive or whatnot. The armour on the Doujin is designed for SCRAMjet powered hypersonic weapons, so really it depends on how much oompth your putting in the shell.

Ill have to introduce you to Scandanavian States :D

It might be worth noting that the ICBM that Doujin fired at Iuthia during an unfortunate incident was also based around Scramjet Technology, the idea is hardly orginal...

How accurate are the SCRAMjet shells/missiles used by the Doujin?

Not trying to go out of my place but I can answer this question.

As of now (I hope), Shinoxia is the only nation to use ScramJet Missiles, but for your question on ScramJet Shells, ScramJets are just as accurate as regular shells and travel at speeds in excess of Mach 7.

Some are designed to pentetrate, then explode, others explode on impact. Run a search on Google.

Ill have to introduce you to Scandanavian States :D

I know him...

What if someone was to get a nuclear charge upon the Doujin's hull? It would be suicide for the guy who put it on, but what would be the damage of say...a kiloton nuclear charge right under the Doujin?

[my navy is now entirely non-existant. I would have to rely on specially trained and equipped sappers to take out that leviathian of a ship. Just assume that my sappers made it to the Doujin without being detected.]

What if someone was to get a nuclear charge upon the Doujin's hull? It would be suicide for the guy who put it on, but what would be the damage of say...a kiloton nuclear charge right under the Doujin?

[my navy is now entirely non-existant. I would have to rely on specially trained and equipped sappers to take out that leviathian of a ship. Just assume that my sappers made it to the Doujin without being detected.]

Did you see my post above? I said that one way to destroy the Doujin would be to sneak in an SF team and put satchels on the hull, however a nuclear charge seems far more effective...

Did you see my post above? I said that one way to destroy the Doujin would be to sneak in an SF team and put satchels on the hull, however a nuclear charge seems far more effective...

Actually, I must have missed it. :o

Did you see my post above? I said that one way to destroy the Doujin would be to sneak in an SF team and put satchels on the hull, however a nuclear charge seems far more effective...

Actually, I must have missed it. :o

LoL.

I remember reading once that Italian divers planted explosives on two British battleships, destroying them. This gave the Italian Navy superiority in the Mediterranean for some time, but they failed to exploit this tactical advanthage...

Sorry if this has been answered before, but the forum is acting up (again) and I don't think I could get through the last two pages.

1) How would a Doujin fare against a, lets say, 5 megaton nuclear missile going off in the immediate vacenity (assuming its not shot down by PD).

Well, Doujin's are built to resist NNBs, but yes, if it close enough then significant damage and outright destruction will await. Although ships are by their very nature resistant to nuclear blasts anyway (check out the damage at the Crossroads test), the Doujin is not invulnerable and will take damage.

2) What are its defences (if any) against submarine attacks aside from the no-doubt heavy sonar.

Well, someone pointed out a while ago of the threat posed by Super-cavitating weapons, and so I had to design a defensive system against them. As supercavitation weapons are still reasonably slow compared to surface weapons (about Mach 0.4) and are reasonably easy to detect by both the sound generated and the surface wake, I came up with a weapon system that can disrupt water currents around a supercavitating torpedo and cause its cavity to collapse, crushing the weapon. The explosive in the weapons can also be used against pretty much anything in the water up to the range of about 2000 metres.

3) Assume that a Doujin had the misfortune of not detecting a missile submarine, and proceeded to sail over the sub's position. If this sub was to fire a missile directly upward, and somehow detonated the weapon, what type of damage would the Doujin incur if
a) the missile exploded directly underneath the main hull
b) the missile exploded between the main hull and one of the outer hulls

I know this scenario is rather improbable, but I'd like to know all the same.

The answer to both questions depends on the position of the detonation and the size and type of warhead.

What if someone was to get a nuclear charge upon the Doujin's hull? It would be suicide for the guy who put it on, but what would be the damage of say...a kiloton nuclear charge right under the Doujin?

[my navy is now entirely non-existant. I would have to rely on specially trained and equipped sappers to take out that leviathian of a ship. Just assume that my sappers made it to the Doujin without being detected.]

From www.nuclearweaponarchive.org , the actual fireball radius of a 1 kiloton nuke is about 50 metres, although underwater this would be slightly less, probably about forty metres or so. Within this space te hull would be either vaourised or melted out of shape, and the blast wave would cause material damage and distortion for around another 100- 200 metres across the hull, resulting in further cracks and other damage, as well as bulkhead collapse.

Assuming you did right in the central hull amidship, you would superheat the engine compartment, killing most of the crew there and causing the reactors to shutdown ( a meltdown is possible as well, though the reactors are set high in the hull so its not necessarily going to happen.) The heat would cause flash burns across the ship, and the hull would fracture, although not entirely split across most of the central section even to above the waterline. The EMP would fry most of the electronics as the blast would circumvent the near-blast protection.

without help, the ship would slowly sink after a few days or even weeks. She wouldnt be salvagable, as her has been comprimised too severely. Half her crew, possibly more, would die through primary and secondary nuclear effects.

Note: The bigger they are, the easier it is for me to shoot them down.

Not if they go quickly enough. I think CIWS is over rated in NS in general (not you everyone). As Chardonay aptly put it "CIWS is a last-ditch-put-your-head-between-your-legs-and-pray-if-you're-an-atheist kindof defence". But it seems to be a trend in NS that CIWS = safety. I say that the best probability you could get is 40 - 60%. chance to shoot down.

Even my big, 'slow' missile travels faster that the speed of sound and isn't actually very big compared to say, a plane, which you certainly dont have an 80% chance of shooting down.

Yes indeed. There is a VERY common alternate acronym for the cheeze-wiz, er... I mean... CIWS...

"Captain, It Won't Shoot!"

Depends on the range of the railgun...and wouldnt the recoil from that crush the launch vessel?

Railguns use a magnetic field to propel the shell forward, and as such I am pretty sure there is no recoil. I am sure such a gun can easily achieve a range of hundreds of kilometers-400 km I'd say at max, because really anything after that will have moved away too far to really judge.

OOC: SCRAMJet and Electro-magnetically propelled out of the silo :P

What if someone was to get a nuclear charge upon the Doujin's hull? It would be suicide for the guy who put it on, but what would be the damage of say...a kiloton nuclear charge right under the Doujin?

[my navy is now entirely non-existant. I would have to rely on specially trained and equipped sappers to take out that leviathian of a ship. Just assume that my sappers made it to the Doujin without being detected.]

From www.nuclearweaponarchive.org , the actual fireball radius of a 1 kiloton nuke is about 50 metres, although underwater this would be slightly less, probably about forty metres or so. Within this space te hull would be either vaourised or melted out of shape, and the blast wave would cause material damage and distortion for around another 100- 200 metres across the hull, resulting in further cracks and other damage, as well as bulkhead collapse.

Assuming you did right in the central hull amidship, you would superheat the engine compartment, killing most of the crew there and causing the reactors to shutdown ( a meltdown is possible as well, though the reactors are set high in the hull so its not necessarily going to happen.) The heat would cause flash burns across the ship, and the hull would fracture, although not entirely split across most of the central section even to above the waterline. The EMP would fry most of the electronics as the blast would circumvent the near-blast protection.

without help, the ship would slowly sink after a few days or even weeks. She wouldnt be salvagable, as her has been comprimised too severely. Half her crew, possibly more, would die through primary and secondary nuclear effects.

Further damage would be caused by the wave and plume generated by the subsurface explosion. The second Crossroads test was a -90 feet subsurface 23 KT explosioon; it generated a 2000 foot tall water column with water walls 300 feet thick and 6000 feet tall. 1000 feet from the explosion, waves reached as high as 100 feet. In the test, 8 nearby target vessels, including 3 battleships and 2 submarines, were destroyed. The majority of warheads carried aboard missiles on SSBMs today are far more powerful, meaning not only would the blast damage be worse, but the water damage would be far worse as well.

1) How much did it take to produce the Duojin?

and

2) Is there a Duojin-II in the future?

There already is a 'Doujin-II' - (Speaking of which, Jim you ever going to get on MSN? :S) :P

Depends on the range of the railgun...and wouldnt the recoil from that crush the launch vessel?

Railguns use a magnetic field to propel the shell forward, and as such I am pretty sure there is no recoil. I am sure such a gun can easily achieve a range of hundreds of kilometers-400 km I'd say at max, because really anything after that will have moved away too far to really judge.

Okay, Ive been checking my facts, the recoil would be minimal, but you might just blast the rails apart ;)

I know him...

But what you don't know is that all of my missiles are powered by SCRAMJets. Hell, my tank and artillery shells are about to go completely SCRAMJet.

http://www.mbda.net/site/FO/scripts/siteFO_contenu.php?lang=EN&noeu_id=89 <- PAAMS, it is designed to destroy diving and sea skimming missiles

Fluffywuffy im just about to check the force that rail gun will hit with and then Freethinkers can tell you what damage it will do

Well Scramjet muntions have been used by a number of epople since i first started reading the forums.