NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.bateshome.com/jordan/sub.jpg

On a streak of new Marine Technologies, Raysia has begun work on a new attack submarine, with speed and maneuverability that borders on having to go into supercavitation. The Submarine will be powered by a nuclear reactor that turns the two massive reversible turbines on pylons of the Submarine. The reversible engines, in combination with the distance they have from the body, allows this submarine to turn extremely fast.

With a top speed of just under 45 knots, this thing is born and bred as an interceptor attacker. It has an extensive sensor suite, as well as a good series of transmitters that tie this thing into the already massive Brother network. (http://www.bateshome.com/jordan/brother.htm) And controling this Beast is a crew of 35.

As far as weapons go, this design will be loaded to the teeth. The 2 pylons between the engines each house 4 ElectroMagnetic Rapid-Fire Rail Guns that fire 20mm-slugs, whose muzzles are concealed under flaps in the edges of the pylons. It also has 4 forward torpedo launchers, 2 aft, and 1 ventral missile launcher.

The Pylons can fold down or up when docking, allowing it to fit in most bays. However, this submarine can not work very well on the surface, having only a maximum surface speed of 5 knots.

Expect a prototype in the very near future.

OOC: Damnit Raysia, stop churning out stuff this fast....there's got to be some antitrust lawsuit we can file on your near monopoly :P It's a rather unusual looking submarine though...of course, everyone else has to stick to normal ones because of a lack of pictures...:lol:

About the pylons...how would 20mm guns fire underwater? There is an incredibly high amount of water pressure...
IC:

Speaking for the Zoogie Isles, and the regional military it soon hopes to form , Zoogiedom expresses great interest in this new attack submarine for the Isles Naval Forces. We require such speed, effectiveness, and deadliness in our naval combatants, and since our submarines are limited in technology level to closer to present day, we would like to express interest in acquiring this for the Isles Defense Forces.

We realize this is still in prototype form; and as we are embarking on a venture into marine technologies, we would be extremely interested in somehow being of assistance to your design...it would help tremendously in our naval ventures.

The speed of that sub is going to hurt it more than help in most cases. At max speed, it will be broadcasting its presence to anyone listening. And though the sub's speed is fast enough to out run most other subs, it's still slower than the majority of today's advanced torpedoes. You basically have a high tech version of the Alfa on your hands.

Also, as Zoogie said, what purpose do the 20mm cannons serve? The only way they would work effectively is if you designed supercavitational bullets, which would be incredibly expensive.

Hmmm... interesting picture, But im not sure its too practile... 'Wings' don't go well on subs, usually Submarine designs (IRL) seem to be becoming more and more a single unit, trying to merg everything inside.. Huge Pods and wings sticking off from a sub may not work well.. But that aside.. it looks DAMNED Kewl!!!

Yes, Crossroads brings up another good point. Wings and oddly shaped propulsion mechanisms like that would tremendously increase drag, actually slowing the craft down. Though feasible, this design is not exactly practical.

I know the pylons are weird, but there are more pros than cons:

Cons: You already mentioned... drag, and acts as one big control fin.

Pro: That same "control fin" aspect works great if you put control surfaces on it, turning your drag into y and z-axis control.

Pro: Holds the humongous turbines off to the side, allowing greater turning moment.

And as for the guns, they are electromagnetic-powered, firing armor-piercing explosive rounds. The cannons, if fired in air, would have enough force to launch the bullets at around mach 9, making it about mach 1 or 2 underwater, granted a limited range. They're only good at under half a mile.

And yeah, I'm all about doing things unorthodox :)

I know the pylons are weird, but there are more pros than cons:

Cons: You already mentioned... drag, and acts as one big control fin.

Pro: That same "control fin" aspect works great if you put control surfaces on it, turning your drag into y and z-axis control.

Pro: Holds the humongous turbines off to the side, allowing greater turning moment.

And as for the guns, they are electromagnetic-powered, firing armor-piercing explosive rounds. The cannons, if fired in air, would have enough force to launch the bullets at around mach 9, making it about mach 1 or 2 underwater, granted a limited range. They're only good at under half a mile.

And yeah, I'm all about doing things unorthodox :)

The fin actually hurts the ship in making flow noise. It kills speed through drag

Yea, its true Raysia... Like I said, it 'looks' damn cool but in Submarines, Stealth is key.. It is far more important to have a Sub that is Slow and Stealthy, than something that makes a lot of noise but can turn and move fast.

But don't forget Ray, this IS NS, things don't NEED to be 'Practical' half the things on NS are designed because 'they look cool’ Look at all the Mechs and walkers.. Honestly probably impractical, But man they Look Cool! So, the decision is up to you :)

Umm, I could care less about the noise. This thing is fast enough to outrun most torpedoes, can frikkin dogfight any other submarine or battleship, and has enough firepower to total the enemy before they even get you targeted.

This is a heavy attack ship... meant to be used while already in naval combat.

I'll work on a solo ship meant for 1 on 1 fights, but this is definately meant for heavy combat.

Umm, I could care less about the noise. This thing is fast enough to outrun most torpedoes, can frikkin dogfight any other submarine or battleship, and has enough firepower to total the enemy before they even get you targeted.

This is a heavy attack ship... meant to be used while already in naval combat.

I'll work on a solo ship meant for 1 on 1 fights, but this is definately meant for heavy combat.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but 45 knots is not even close to fast enough to outrun most torpedoes. A Mk. 48 ADCAP torpedo does 55 knots, and that's conventional power. The US has other smaller torpedoes that easily surpass 40 knots. A supercav torpedo like the Shkval does 200 knots. You're still not getting away from anything at that speed.

And as it's already been said about 5 times, the odd shapes wouldn't just create noise at speed, they'd create drag. Instead of helping the sub maneuver like a plane in the air, they'd slow it down, hinder its maneuverability, and create even more noise.

Also, mind explaining how you have 35 men crewing a sub with 6 torpedo tubes, scattered over the ship? Generally, you've got 4-10 guys working sonar alone in most subs. Then it takes another 3-5 to a load a torpedo into a single tube. Most of your crew is right there, and there's only so much automation can do. And I would suggest staying away from autoloaders to get rid of the need for weapons loaders, as it's already been proven in tanks that auto loaders are god awful.

We are interested in this sub (for futuretech useage).

It can't be modern tech, can it? Near future, right?

Raysia Speaking: Hmm... maybe I didn't put enough thought into this ship :P I kinda just, ya know, drew it :P

OOC: Speaking as Crimmond's player: What they said. ^^^

Anyway, the thing has a window. What combat sub has a window?

And I would suggest staying away from autoloaders to get rid of the need for weapons loaders, as it's already been proven in tanks that auto loaders are god awful.

Current Russian and Japanese auto-loaders are faster then any human at loading.

It's only the old T-64 autoloader that was horrible, the 125mm autoloader was better and the T80U/UM and T90S autoloaders are much improved still. The Japanese autoloader in the Type 90 is also a very good system.

OK OK you guys... Raysia admited its something he did for fun... It looks cool its a nifty idea, obviously it needs a lot of work,

Don't give up Raysia! Submarines are an area of NS hardware sorly lacking in new and fresh designs, just edit things a bit!

And I would suggest staying away from autoloaders to get rid of the need for weapons loaders, as it's already been proven in tanks that auto loaders are god awful.

Current Russian and Japanese auto-loaders are faster then any human at loading.

It's only the old T-64 autoloader that was horrible, the 125mm autoloader was better and the T80U/UM and T90S autoloaders are much improved still. The Japanese autoloader in the Type 90 is also a very good system.

Auto loaders are still exponentially more prone to jamming the gun than a human loader, and once that happens with an auto loader, you're pretty much screwed, because it's going to take forever to correct.

OK OK you guys... Raysia admited its something he did for fun... It looks cool its a nifty idea, obviously it needs a lot of work,

Don't give up Raysia! Submarines are an area of NS hardware sorly lacking in new and fresh designs, just edit things a bit!unfortunately I know next to nothing about them :P

You people that are saying the speed and maneuverability aren't useful are really looking at it the wrong way. It may not be as fast as the torpedos, but a jet fighter isn't faster than missiles. The point is to dodge them, not outrun them, and torpedos aren't nearly as good at homing as missiles. (on the other hand, if this sub is large enough to have a nuke reactor, I don't know what to say....)

At post modern tech, autoloaders should have advanced enough to be far better than human loaders. If they do jam though, he probably has at least enough room to try and have technicians unjam them. Besides that, he has 6 tubes and it usually only takes a couple of torpedos to take out most anything.

If you angle the wings down, the engines can remain entirely underwater while on the surface, so your speed can remain pretty high.

Once again I cite RelicArms own Pirahna Class Light Attack Sub (http://www.freewebs.com/bluebomber/storefrontnaval.htm) for some examples. The engines are mounted below the surface waterline. The torpedo tubes can pivot upwards to act as vertical missile tubes. The fins are thin enough not to cause too much drag from prolonged contact. (please don't complain about the price, they are produced in Sileetris for a fraction of the cost that would be present in a capitalist country with a healthy economy, RelicArms gets a lot of bang for their buck when they build here)

Sileetris: What would be the problem with having 'wings' in the first place? Would it really have that much drag?

Sadly yes, water is much denser then air, so lift works differently. In a plane the air goes over the top of the wings and only makes contact with them because it is shoved down by other air. Because water is so much more dense, it is always pressing down on the tops of the wings.

I don't care whether or not you keep the wings, but if you angle them downwards the engines can be far enough below the waterline to provide fast speed on the surface.

I understand the angle-down part. The wings already pivot up-and-down on axis.

But will the wings really have that much drag? Or will it basically just keep it level like a big stabilizer fin?

Sadly yes, water is much denser then air, so lift works differently. In a plane the air goes over the top of the wings and only makes contact with them because it is shoved down by other air. Because water is so much more dense, it is always pressing down on the tops of the wings.

I don't care whether or not you keep the wings, but if you angle them downwards the engines can be far enough below the waterline to provide fast speed on the surface.

Yes, in that case, surface speed would increase due to a hydroplane effect created by the thrust and wing angle. However, underwater, the craft would be difficult to maneuver and slow.

hmm... good point with the hyperfoil thing!

But how exactly would the wings cause drag under water? What if I significantly lowered their surface area?

LOL Down-angled wings:
http://www.bateshome.com/jordan/2222222222.jpg

And a cell-shaded pic, in case it doesn't look cool already :P

http://www.bateshome.com/jordan/cartoonysub.jpg

ooOooo nice improvments Raysia. The reduced wings and streamlined form works well, I htink you may have to redsign the Engine pds... perhaps creat a system where the Drive Engines are 'inside' the Submarine, but the 'Exhaust/Jets' are located via Ducts, to the wings to turn faster... also.. the tail still looks a little funny... But good improvments..

Raysia,
If you are going for a winged submarine, I suggest you look up the Deep Flight submersibles. They've got it down to a science.

What about the conning tower? You need somewhere to mouns the snorkel, periscope and array of other electonics.

What I don't understand is the large jet engine like turbines. Do they contain waterjets or are they covers for propellers.

Some forward dive planes would be nice too.

< notes he got rid of the window. :P