NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, this is the sign-up thread for a non-war RP, technologies, statistics, and ooc comments go here.
The actual RP won't begin for a few RL days.

No Futuretech Plz. The Match is a "Service Rifle" type match (think Camp Perry if you're familiar with shooting sports) with several "Classes".

Junior Class Service Rifle(Under 15 y/o)

Junior Class Service Pistol(under 15 y/o)

Service Class (Military personnel only) Rifle

Service Class Pistol

Civilian Adult Class Service Rifle(Non-military personnel with their nation's Service Arm.)

Long Range Rifle (1000 meter)

Long Range Pistol (120 meter)

Unlimited Class Rifle (2,000 meters, this is the class where you run .50 bmg rifles like the Barrett, Unlimited Class includes anyone over the age of sixteen, younger competitors who wish to compete at this range should sign up for the Junior Unlimited Class)

Junior Unlimited- (2000 meters, age limit is 15 years old for competitors)

Rules for the classes:

Service Rifle classes must be the standard service rifle of your nation, Bipods and Telescopic sights are not permitted.

Service Pistol class mut be standard, unmodified service pistol or a commercial copy of the same. "Tuning" is permitted in both Service classes, provided no additional or non-standard parts are used. (ie trigger jobs are okay, bull-barrels are not, nor are special Target sights.)

Unlimited Classes may use Bipod, unique chamberings (pls post mechanical details for non-commercial or non-standard chamberings), scopes, wind-guages, or anything else you think can help you with the following exception: the rifle must be operated directly by the competitor, in the manner of a rifle. (No remote-control systems or robotics)
Unlimited Class competitors must not use any rifle chambering a round larger than .50 caliber BMG-exemptions may be given for 12.7 Dashika (the Soviet equivalent), but a waiver is necessary.
Points in the Unlimited class will be adjusted based on competitors' equipment, with handicaps assigned for lack of specialized hardware.

OOC: Wow this is jsut like what happens at bisely. (Thats the British NRA HQ thingy i think, i shoot their with 7.62mm TR's and 5.56mm L98A1's quite a bit.)

OOC: interesting, i haven't really seen much in the way of gun sports thingies since doing some air rifle stuff years ago.

Now the question is which of my standard rifles to enter...
But the answer is of course the S1A3 seeing how the S7A3 is only use by certain units and the E1 series isn't standard issue (nwo i don't suppose i could be really checky and enter my light supprot weapon into the rifle section... joking, honest).
Pistol wise it has to be the P2A1

And Bah humbug on the unlimited class, my 20mm ACM rounds actually have a smaller base than .50BMG... i suppose i'll just have to enter the S4A2 AMR in 9x90mm MEN

details on all weapons mentioend can be found here: http://www.meatballs.terminator.org.uk/crookfur/rifles.html

Rp names for entries to follow...

Hmmm. Bump.

OOC: interesting, i haven't really seen much in the way of gun sports thingies since doing some air rifle stuff years ago.

Now the question is which of my standard rifles to enter...
But the answer is of course the S1A3 seeing how the S7A3 is only use by certain units and the E1 series isn't standard issue (nwo i don't suppose i could be really checky and enter my light supprot weapon into the rifle section... joking, honest).
Pistol wise it has to be the P2A1

And Bah humbug on the unlimited class, my 20mm ACM rounds actually have a smaller base than .50BMG... i suppose i'll just have to enter the S4A2 AMR in 9x90mm MEN

details on all weapons mentioend can be found here: http://www.meatballs.terminator.org.uk/crookfur/rifles.html

Rp names for entries to follow...

Hmmm...
Okay, we'll have to give you a "Handicap" in the Service Rifle category based on the configuration, your Irons are secondary sights, and the rules are "No Optics".

I would like to enter in the Service Class Pistol and the Long Range Pistol class.

Junior Class Service Pistol- "The Pastor" .50 cal hand gun
Service Class Pistol- "The Reverend" .50 cal hand gun
Long Range Pistol- "The Choir Master" .50 cal hand gun

names will follow later

info for the guns: http://s4.invisionfree.com/The_Unforgiven_Board/index.php?showtopic=148

I would like to enter in the Service Class Pistol and the Long Range Pistol class.

Junior Class Service Pistol- "The Pastor" .50 cal hand gun
Service Class Pistol- "The Reverend" .50 cal hand gun
Long Range Pistol- "The Choir Master" .50 cal hand gun

names will follow later

info for the guns: http://s4.invisionfree.com/The_Unforgiven_Board/index.php?showtopic=148

Hmmm... a .50 caliber revolver... okay.
You'll be granted a 50 point handicap in the Long Range Pistol catagory, since it's a field pretty well dominated by high-velocity rounds, and a .50 cal. pistol round has the Ballistic Coefficient of a round-ball load.

What sort of muzzle energy would the other pistols have?

And I accept the handicap.

What sort of muzzle energy would the other pistols have?

And I accept the handicap.

I'll have to get back to you when I've seen the entries. Muzzle Energy is a measure of what a given bullet will do to a target it hits, and while it's a function of velocity and mass, (a basic Kinetic Energy calculation), range is also affected by Ballistic coefficient, the Aerodynamics of a projectile. Pistol Rounds tend to have Abysmal BC, but some rounds are worse than others. a .50 caliber round that's fireable (Recoil is a function of Newtonian Physics-to send a mass out at a given speed, an equal-and-opposite force is coming at you, big pistols recoil less than small pistols of the same caliber, and the initial specific impulse is about the same-the difference is how much mass is being pushed in each direction.)
I'll work up some numbers on your load in the morning, and post 'em in a couple of days. I've got Hatcher's Notebook (c) 1962, the Hodgdon Manual, and both bound books from Speer's current volume.

Hmmm...
Okay, we'll have to give you a "Handicap" in the Service Rifle category based on the configuration, your Irons are secondary sights, and the rules are "No Optics".

The Iron sights are fully functional and the optics are easily removeable
the iron sights are HK style diopter.
I really should have mentioned that but i kind of forgot about the SUSAT...

I know the muzzle velocity of my guns, you don't need to worry about that.

I know the muzzle velocity of my guns, you don't need to worry about that.

Actually, Hamptonshire, I was more concerned about me knowing the MV of your pistols. (Roughly 1625 fps with a 400 gr. bullet-I found the Popular Mech. article...)
I also did your recoil numbers (don't thank me..) the Full-sized model has a recoil of 10.25 foot-lbs-about what the .30-06 150 gr. bullet has in the 1903 Springfield rifle, or what you get from a pistol-grip riot shotgun firing a one-ounce slug. (OUCH!)
Compensation with the Hogue Grips will keep the muzzle below 50 degrees elevation, but felt recoil's about 9 1/2 ft-lbs- which makes a model 29 with hardwoods look like a popgun, but keeps it below "Wrist Injury" levels on a 150 lb human being in good physical health without joint disorders like Carpal Tunnel, arthritis, or tennis elbow.

For these reasons, I'm going to have to insist your Junior competitor wear additional safety gear, including shock-absorbing shooting gloves, and that your Junior competitor utilize either a lighter slug (the 230 gr. at the same or reduced velocity), or a heavier "Iron", to prevent injuries to growing tissues in the hands, wrists, and elbows. Injuries caused in a competition can be a disqualifying event, and young people should not be placed in that position.

We will gladly waive the "as issued" requirement for the Junior competitors, in order to promote better physical health among the young athletes and maintain a fair contest.

I wish to enter in the Junior Unlimited with a modified Barret M82A1 ANti-vehicular long range rifle. Modified to use a gas routing system, involving the excess gas to chamber the new bullet. Also has a recoil-dampening system on the barrel. SIghts: Standard laser/night scope starlight on the picatinny rail.

Actually, Hamptonshire, I was more concerned about me knowing the MV of your pistols. (Roughly 1625 fps with a 400 gr. bullet-I found the Popular Mech. article...)
I also did your recoil numbers (don't thank me..) the Full-sized model has a recoil of 10.25 foot-lbs-about what the .30-06 150 gr. bullet has in the 1903 Springfield rifle, or what you get from a pistol-grip riot shotgun firing a one-ounce slug. (OUCH!)
Compensation with the Hogue Grips will keep the muzzle below 50 degrees elevation, but felt recoil's about 9 1/2 ft-lbs- which makes a model 29 with hardwoods look like a popgun, but keeps it below "Wrist Injury" levels on a 150 lb human being in good physical health without joint disorders like Carpal Tunnel, arthritis, or tennis elbow.

For these reasons, I'm going to have to insist your Junior competitor wear additional safety gear, including shock-absorbing shooting gloves, and that your Junior competitor utilize either a lighter slug (the 230 gr. at the same or reduced velocity), or a heavier "Iron", to prevent injuries to growing tissues in the hands, wrists, and elbows. Injuries caused in a competition can be a disqualifying event, and young people should not be placed in that position.

We will gladly waive the "as issued" requirement for the Junior competitors, in order to promote better physical health among the young athletes and maintain a fair contest.

Muzzle velocity for the Pator- 2600 ft/lb.
Muzzle velocity for the Reverend- 2600 ft/lb
Muzzle velocity for the Choir Master- 2600 ft/lb

The Junior competator will wear the additional safety gear, but we will not change our standard 500 S&W bullets.

I wish to enter in the Junior Unlimited with a modified Barret M82A1 ANti-vehicular long range rifle. Modified to use a gas routing system, involving the excess gas to chamber the new bullet. Also has a recoil-dampening system on the barrel. SIghts: Standard laser/night scope starlight on the picatinny rail.

Request accepted, provided the competitor is accompanied by a responsible adult, and provided he or she has the following required safety equipment:

1. Padded fire-resistant shooting Jacket
2. Shooting Glasses compliant with OSHA requirements
3. Hearing protection.

And a complete Physical filed prior to the meet (to insure your athlete/s health and safety while at the meet-for insurance purposes.)

Actually, Hamptonshire, I was more concerned about me knowing the MV of your pistols. (Roughly 1625 fps with a 400 gr. bullet-I found the Popular Mech. article...)
I also did your recoil numbers (don't thank me..) the Full-sized model has a recoil of 10.25 foot-lbs-about what the .30-06 150 gr. bullet has in the 1903 Springfield rifle, or what you get from a pistol-grip riot shotgun firing a one-ounce slug. (OUCH!)
Compensation with the Hogue Grips will keep the muzzle below 50 degrees elevation, but felt recoil's about 9 1/2 ft-lbs- which makes a model 29 with hardwoods look like a popgun, but keeps it below "Wrist Injury" levels on a 150 lb human being in good physical health without joint disorders like Carpal Tunnel, arthritis, or tennis elbow.

For these reasons, I'm going to have to insist your Junior competitor wear additional safety gear, including shock-absorbing shooting gloves, and that your Junior competitor utilize either a lighter slug (the 230 gr. at the same or reduced velocity), or a heavier "Iron", to prevent injuries to growing tissues in the hands, wrists, and elbows. Injuries caused in a competition can be a disqualifying event, and young people should not be placed in that position.

We will gladly waive the "as issued" requirement for the Junior competitors, in order to promote better physical health among the young athletes and maintain a fair contest.

Muzzle velocity for the Pator- 2600 ft/lb.
Muzzle velocity for the Reverend- 2600 ft/lb
Muzzle velocity for the Choir Master- 2600 ft/lb

The Junior competator will wear the additional safety gear, but we will not change our standard 500 S&W bullets.

Um... Ft/Lbs is a measure of muzzle energy, that is, how much energy is imparted.
Velocity is FPS or "Feet Per Second", which is a whole different ball of wax.

Recoil Calculator HERE: http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp


[ooc note: I am a "Wildcatter", I do cartridge "experiments" and build rifles to fire them, I know how to calculate Muzzle energy, muzzle velocity, Down Range energy, Ballistic Coefficients, and recoil. That means I actually know how the real thing works. The published data on RL .500 S&W Special shows the heaviest load, a 400 Gr. Gas-checked cast lead slug (Low antimony) moving an average of 1625 feet per second gives a muzzle energy of 2600 foot-pounds, with a chamber pressure just under 50,000 copper units of pressure. (about the same as the .30-06 150 gr. silvertip from winchester) Barrel Length influences velocity-significantly. Between 4 and 8 inches, you lose or gain up to 25% of your bullet speed, depending on which direction you're going, how fast the load is to begin with, and how much air-resistance it encounters upon leaving the muzzle and beginning deceleration. That means your shorter-barrelled pistol is going to have a lower Muzzle Velocity, and corresponding muzzle energy, but that also means, (because lighter guns DO kick harder-less mass to resist the recoil impulse...) that your recoil on the user-end will come much more quickly thanks to inertia (Hence:Harder kick).
The loads you've posted would turn a S&W frame into pieces of S&W frame at the kind of pressures your running. Pistols aren't built with much in the way of a safety margin, and yours are shown as having more chambers than the stock model, which means thinner chamber-walls... Fix the numbers, or find a different weapon, or drop out. Your choice.]

OCC: What I'm posting is directly off the S&W website. I've altered nothing.

OCC: What I'm posting is directly off the S&W website. I've altered nothing.

Okay, I checked the site, and I think I know what the problem is.
Smith & Wesson listed the Muzzle Energy, not the Velocity, and they posted the ME for the heaviest load possible in that cartridge as fired through the 8 1/2" barrel.
Gun companies do this to boost sales, and because big-bore velocity numbers don't look as impressive as their muzzle-energy numbers do.