NationStates Jolt Archive

As Kalitha Oceania is a state built on floating cities and subsurface mines, a submarine fleet has been in our intrest. However, most submarines, even diesel electric are too large and require too large a crew to operate. They are also too expensive for us to effectively maintain and patrol our waters against modern piracy. Therefore, the following guidelines have been issued for the ASKO Combat MiniSub.

EDIT:

The ACS built Kraken Patrol Sub has been chosen. All others, thank you for your time.

OOC: Could it be? Another Deep Angel fan? Did you want this to be DA style, or slightly more modern tech?

OOC:Yeah, are there others?

Anyway, if you have examples of both, that'd be good.

Umm, Supercavitation only happens at high speesds, WELL above 40 nauts, like near 1000.

And what kind of defenses will this thing have?

OOC: Uh, yeah. I'm not an idiot. And it's 100 knots, not 1000.

You misunderstand.

It must have a max speed of 40 knots or more. This maximum speed can be attained through any of the propulsion systems mentioned. Some of those systems are supercavitational propulsion systems.

Defenses? I'm not sure. I was kind of hoping to see some offers for joint design or already existing ones.

I do believe Great Matean Industries has exactly what you're looking for.

http://i.timeinc.net/popsci/images/science/sci0403subs_A1.jpg
Manta class fast attack minisub NS Exclusive
Length: 40 feet
Height: 9 feet
Width: 30 feet
Max speed with standard armament: 60 knots
Max Operating Depth: 700 feet (home sub may not go below this depth either, or the mini sub will be crushed)
Crew: 3
Combat Radius: 100 miles
Armament: 10 horizontal launch tubes, which can hold any tube launched weapon under 20 feet in length, including Mk. 48 and torpedo tube launched Tomahawk cruise missiles. Tubes can be simultaneously fired. No added storage. Comes with Mk. 50 torpedoes.
Cost: 525 million, 10% discount to regional allies.

Deployed from a larger sub, this vessel's speed and ability to empty all of its weaponry at once makes it perfect for fast hit and run attacks on enemy coast lines. The high amount of noise it generates while operating does not matter in most cases, because its amazing speed enables it to outrun most torpedoes. In fact, this speedy ship is able to become completely airborne for a very brief moment when performing an emergency rise at full speed. Its short combat radius requires it to return to the "mother" sub or base very often for refueling, limiting it to fast attack and return missions, close quarters aid for battles with other subs, and close range coastal defense.

While the American Manta concept was considered, it does not meet the crush depth requirements or weapons requirements.

Some of our mines are up to 500 meters below sea level on some of the subsurface ridges and heightened plataeus, and we were hoping this sub would be able to be based at them.

The Manta also does not have the anti mine/torpedo gun we have requested. However, these problems could easily be rectified with modifications like the US Navy ASHUM system and Alumina Casing.

OOC: Yeah, both myself and Clairmont operate our own versions of the Monitor, and in post-modern tech engagements, i use entire supercavitating carrier battle groups, right down the Peacekeepers, Raptors and the such like.

OOC: Is there anyone else? Or are we that small of a presence here?
Anyway, you're welcome to submit any of your craft for this.

BUMP

Once again RelicArms proves that no one else in NS is competent :-P
Our 'Pirahna' Class Light Attack Sub(very bottom of page) (http://www.freewebs.com/bluebomber/storefrontnaval.htm) has been around for months.....


Crew: 10

Speed: 55kts

Powerplant: Fuel cell block

Range: 5,000m-8045km

Armament: 4 torpedo/guided missle tubes(the tubes can pivot to face upwards), 1 mine chute, 2 76mm turret mounted auto cannons(for defense on surface)

Special: completely silent, propellerless drive(above speed). EMP hardened.

Emergency boosters: very, very noisy secondary engines that can move it at 95kts for up to 120 minutes(buckle up!)

$100 million

The primary drives are tesla turbines(details can be found on our tech and contracts page, don't let the name mislead you), the noisy secondary engines are underwater rockets(the sub only partially super-cavitates, the fins stick out of the buble though, so it retains great manueverability).

Once again RelicArms proves that no one else in NS is competent :-P

The inferiority complex just isn't necessary, okay?

What are the sensors?
What is the crush depth?
Can the guns fire underwater?

Silreetis, you have good tech.. but it's ignored by me seeing its passed my tech range. ;) It's thot that anyone is competent, it's that some people actually have -boundaries-.

Autonomous City-states: Actually it would be a superiority complex because of my overestimation of my own abilities. Well, not really, because as of yet, you(being the only person that seems to follow me around criticizing me) have yet to prove your point. Plus you may be jealous, cause at one point you said something about being an engineer, and me beating you at something you should be an expert at must really hurt :-P. Also you being an engineer means you are unqualified to do psychoanalysis, so :-P :-D.

Kalitha Oceania:
Sensors: Standard Issue Sonar(fill in what you think is average), Radar(with our anti-cancellation system) for surface work.
Crush Depth: ~550m BSL, we use a lot of titanium in our designs
The guns can't fire underwater practically, the drag caused by water is too high for the shells to do damage. The guns are intended for use on the surface to kill small vessels or destroy critical areas of large ones(depth charge launchers :-D), and as anti-aircraft guns.

Doujin: I don't know why you say that, I could understand ignoring our Valefors or battle armor, but most of our stuff should be well within your tech setting(you built the Doujin, thats pretty hard to do).

Well, we require guns that can be fired underwater effectively, same with the munitions, so the submarine can be used against against mines and lighter seacraft without having to use torpedo.

Also, few things about Sileetris' design. No way in hell would it cost less than $100 million to make. Also, when it's super-cavitating, you still have the problem of a complete lack of sensor function. The craft is moving too fast for most things to work, and sonar gets drowned out by the noise from the craft.

And Kalitha, I think it's a little unrealistic for you to expect someone to design a gun that fires functionally underwater. No matter what you do, drag due to water density will slow the projectiles down very, very. very fast.

Look at the cost for an 110' Island class patrol boat, $7 million. If we took the lowest possible profit, that would mean it would take 14 patrol boats to equal the cost of 1 Pirahna. Patrol boats have sonar, so its paid for 14 times over. The radar can't be more expensive than that on a fighter jets, so maybe a couple million is added. The supercav is based on pumping compressed air out onto the sub, rather than having a permanently cavitating design, so its simple. Overall I don't see the problem: 14 patrol boats or 1 submarine? I don't see how Great Mateo can justify the cost for his submarine being so high, considering its only around the size of a jet fighter......But 10 times the cost............

The supercav on my submarine is intended for use in emergencies where the fate of the ship is at stake. If depth charges are raining down on you, you need to get out of the way, stealth and sensors capability becomes unimportant. Plus his subs are noisy all the time anyway.

I agree with him on your unrealistic expectations for mine killing, however I offer a solution. If you are willing to sacrifice my submarine's mine laying equipment, they can be replaced by a bay for remote controlled mini-submersibles, for an upgrade in price......

How do I justify the cost of the Manta? The US Navy's Advanced Seal Delivery System, a 65' minisub with no offensive capabilities, minimal propulsion, and minimal sensors, costs $230 million. The Manta is smaller, but capable of 55 knots, and has 10 horizontal launch tubes for firing cruise and anti-ship missiles as well as torpedoes. That's how I justify my cost. You can't use a patrol boat to justify the cost of a submarine, Sileetris.

GM, yes, they can. Ever heard of supercavitating bullets? The russians have them, and the USN is making them as an anti mine gun.

"Scientists at the Naval Undersea Warfare Center in Newport, Rhode Island demonstrated in 1997, a fully submerged launch of a supercavitating projectile (with air injected in its nose) with a muzzle velocity of 5,082 feet (1,549 meters) per second, making it the first underwater weapon to break the sound barrier."

Autonomous City-states: Actually it would be a superiority complex because of my overestimation of my own abilities. Well, not really, because as of yet, you(being the only person that seems to follow me around criticizing me) have yet to prove your point. Plus you may be jealous, cause at one point you said something about being an engineer, and me beating you at something you should be an expert at must really hurt :-P. Also you being an engineer means you are unqualified to do psychoanalysis, so :-P :-D.

You're the one that goes around insulting people at random. I just happened to come across your usual BS while reading this thread and thought it was necessary to address your totally inappropriate attitude. The fact that you think I follow you around just proves my point further.

I did use incorrect terminology, however, that doesn't change the fact that you are in no position to go around calling other people incompetent to promote your own ideas. You haven't beaten me at anything, especially considering as I didn't put a design up for this tender. You throwing around psuedo-science like you're the hottest thing on earth doesn't prove a thing.

Great Mateo:
I beg to differ...... To quote from this article :http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2003/Jul/21/mn/mn01a.html

The ASDS has had more than its share of problems and is six years behind schedule. The first ASDS should have been delivered to the Navy in 1997.

The entire program, including six boats and facilities in Hawai'i and Little Creek, Va., was to cost $527 million, according to the General Accounting Office.

But the GAO has reported that the program cost could rise to more than $2 billion.

That is for the facilities and six boats. It says the project may go up to 2 billion, but the important thing here is the initial cost. We have built and constructed more than 300 of ours for export, so we have the process pretty much down. The $100 mil cost represents the final cost for a well tested main-battle vessel, not a newly developed special role vehicle.

Kalitha Oceania:
I thought of that and looked up many articles on it, but someone else already holds the NS copyrights, and I will respect them. (I dont' know who it is..... :?: ) Besides the remote control mini-submersibles I offered could be used for other stuff, like seeing stuff without going to sonar.

Autonomous City-states:
You have posted in several of my threads, and several threads where I gave advice. You said I was paranoid, you may be right, in fact, it really doesn't matter to me if you are. Your random appearance here however proves that you are also paranoid. I didn't mention you specifically, yet you come here to complain as if I had. Its a game and you don't have to oversee it. Lighten up :idea: .

Now as for beating you, I didn't mean on this thread, I mean in general. You want to argue with me, and yet you bring no substance to back your claims up. When was the last major technological innovation you made? Do you have a star product that outshines all others? Pseudo science with the backing of a research program is better than nothing with a backing of nothing. Why don't you prove you're better than me instead of asserting that I'm not better than you?

But now if you don't mind, I'm conducting business, and its none of yours.

Autonomous City-states:
You have posted in several of my threads, and several threads where I gave advice. You said I was paranoid, you may be right, in fact, it really doesn't matter to me if you are. Your random appearance here however proves that you are also paranoid. I didn't mention you specifically, yet you come here to complain as if I had. Its a game and you don't have to oversee it. Lighten up :idea: .

Now as for beating you, I didn't mean on this thread, I mean in general. You want to argue with me, and yet you bring no substance to back your claims up. When was the last major technological innovation you made? Do you have a star product that outshines all others? Pseudo science with the backing of a research program is better than nothing with a backing of nothing. Why don't you prove you're better than me instead of asserting that I'm not better than you?

But now if you don't mind, I'm conducting business, and its none of yours.

There are three threads that I can think of where I've spoken with you, including this one, and you've acted with a condescending attitude towards everyone else in all of them. Do I need to remind you again that you were the one who came into this thread calling other people incompetent when things had been perfectly civil beforehand and that my only complaint about your post was that rude and uncalledfor remark? I had been keeping an eye on this thread since it was started, thank you very much.

In general, you must not have read the other threads I have been involved with. My nation just arbitrated a disagreement between McLeod and Credonia on board our new sea control ship. I've exported our B-7E Vampire bomber with some pretty good sales and will be displaying the XB-7 technology demonstrator and research platform at the upcoming Zoogie conference. I'm developing quantum nucleonic reactor technology with Doujin and McLeod right now. In the past, I've had best-selling commercial aircraft of both the blended-wing-body and supersonic varieties.

I don't care what business you conduct as long as it is civil. Going around calling other nations incompetent is not civil and is in total flagrance of the general etiquette that most other people around here follow.

Everyone: I've decided to bump the price of the Pirahna up to $150 mil(the cost of ~ 21 patrol boats) to end the price arguement.....
fnord
Autonomous City-states:fnord
Right under your name do you see that big shiny badge with the words 'etiquette police' on it?fnord Didn't think so...... I can be un-civil as much as I want, and you have no right to stop me. Trying to do so would only be proving that you don't respect my sovereignty as a nation, and who would be uncivilized then?
fnord
You take things way too seriously, and other people have said this of you as well. You are whatfnord Discordians like to call a Greyface :-D

fnord
Autonomous City-states:fnord
Right under your name do you see that big shiny badge with the words 'etiquette police' on it?fnord Didn't think so...... I can be un-civil as much as I want, and you have no right to stop me. Trying to do so would only be proving that you don't respect my sovereignty as a nation, and who would be uncivilized then?
fnord
You take things way too seriously, and other people have said this of you as well. You are whatfnord Discordians like to call a Greyface :-D

You can let other people speak for themselves and say it to me. I was simply suggesting to you that you don't have to be such a prick. The fact that you've resorted to calling me a name from some obscure religion tells me all I need to know.

The you can let other people call me a prick. And just what was it that you needed to know, that I'm a discordian?fnord

ARTHUR:
Be quiet!
DENNIS:
Well, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR:
Shut up!
DENNIS:
I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
ARTHUR:
Shut up, will you? Shut up!
DENNIS:
Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR:
Shut up!
DENNIS:
Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR:
Bloody peasant!
DENNIS:
Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?

It tells me that you think it's fun to be as abrasive and contrary as possible... just for the sake of it. I have nothing left to say on this matter.

The article in that information is incorrect, Sileetris. I'll direct you to this (http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/docs/man-ipc-seal_sdv-000608.htm) article, written by the public affairs head of the company that's designing and building the sub for the Navy.

The article states:

The 65-foot, $230 million sub known as the Advanced SEAL Delivery System, or ASDS, was recently delivered to SEAL Team One for deep water testing at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii.

Also notice the original article said the price was supposed to be $537 million for 6 boats. It also says that price will probably go up to more than $2 billion, meaning the boats cannot be built for what you think they cost.

This is going to end up becoming a lengthy discussion on the politics of weapon pricing, and neither of us will be able to really pull out a conclusive victory.

-On the one hand, you have proof that the navy is paying $230 mil per for what amounts to a water-proof box with an electric engine.

-On the other hand, I'm saying that the navy is paying $230 mil for what amounts to a water-proof box with an electric engine that was originally appraised at less than $89.5 mil per unit(the $537 was for the subs and the construction facility). This leads me to believe that the company making them is either A)incompetent, B)pulling something to get funds because they got the contract and can deliver fastest but now charge more, or C) some law of physics requires everything on the submarine to be plated with pure platinum and 24k gold to function. The price of $230 mil makes no sense unless you take into account the affect of capitalism on the price of high-rarity products. My country is not capitalist(its not exactly communist either, but to explain it would require a whole new thread) and RelicArms builds the submarines in my country because labor very is cheap. My people are 1,001st on the UN ranking for smartest citizens though, so we can also design things very inexpensively(not needing to import scientists). I'm saying that the way my country, its economy, and our experience with the ships already fit together, $150 mil is a realistic price.

I was under the impression real life technology could not be copyrighted... Guys, please take this somewhere else. While I do find that Sileetris has some unrealistic pricing on his sub, you don't need to screw up my thread. Does anyone else have offers? ACS, I've heard that you have a large sub fleet, do you have anything to offer?

I was under the impression real life technology could not be copyrighted... Guys, please take this somewhere else. While I do find that Sileetris has some unrealistic pricing on his sub, you don't need to screw up my thread. Does anyone else have offers? ACS, I've heard that you have a large sub fleet, do you have anything to offer?

OOC: RL Tech can't be copyrighted, but some try it anyway ;)

CK-ROC Systems of Taiwan has developed a supercavitating torpedo, with an export version ready for low-rate production if demand is sufficient.


MK600 heavyweight torpedo
The MK600 is a submarine/air/ship launched torpedo that exploits the phenomenon of supercavitation to travel at devastating speeds around five times faster than conventional torpedoes, at which there is no effective countermeasure. One drawback to supercavitation is that it cannot allow turning, and thus the MK600 is limited to a 3 degree per second turns. It is capable of slowing down to 50 knots to search, compensating for it's lack of maneuverability The sheer size and speed of the torpedo with the help of a DU tip can also penetrate even heavy armor.

Function: Supercavitating ship/air launched torpedo
Length: 8.5m
Diameter: 0.5m
Range: 22km (18km export)
Speed: 200 knots
Powerplant: Solid rocket
Weight: 3,600kg
Warhead: 200kg HE
Guidance: Acoustic homing

Cost: $1.9m

Your system is very interesting. Could we purchase production rights?

Now, does anyone have any supercavitating bullets?

ACS, I've heard that you have a large sub fleet, do you have anything to offer?

Actually, we have a patrol submarine that is right up your alley.

Kraken-class Patrol Submarine
The Kraken-class is designed to be a more robust patrol craft than the subfighters, but not be as large or as expensive as the fleet submarines. Krakens typically have a crew of three to five and accomodations for a squad of special forces and their equipment. Armament includes two supercavitating cannon (one on the bow and the second mounted on the dorsal amidships), supercavitating microtorpedoes, and eight vertical launch cells.

http://phalanx.i8.com/FACS/naval/kraken_main.jpg

That's an excellent design for our purposes (OOC-Fits my Tech level too...), and we'd like to inquire the cost before buying. If the production rights are availible, we'll gladly take those.

OOC-I saw your site, very, very nice designs. Expect to see more orderds from us in the future.

BTW, did you do the pic for the Kraken?

That's an excellent design for our purposes (OOC-Fits my Tech level too...), and we'd like to inquire the cost before buying. If the production rights are availible, we'll gladly take those.

OOC-I saw your site, very, very nice designs. Expect to see more orderds from us in the future.

BTW, did you do the pic for the Kraken?

The Kraken is actually a legacy design in our fleet and we are considering a replacement for it presently. We'll cut you a good deal and offer production rights for $35 billion.

OOC: Actually, no. It's an adaptation of a submarine from an anime.

Unfortunately, our military budget is about 35 Billion. However, will do one of two things:

1. Pay you a certain amount of money every year for a certain amount of years. (Maybe 5 billion per year over 7 years, or 7 billion per year over 5 years)
2. Acquire 100 Krakens if the price permits.

OOC:Cool, what series?

Unfortunately, our military budget is about 35 Billion. However, will do one of two things:

1. Pay you a certain amount of money every year for a certain amount of years. (Maybe 5 billion per year over 7 years, or 7 billion per year over 5 years)
2. Acquire 100 Krakens if the price permits.

OOC:Cool, what series?

Option 1 is satisfactory. We'll even send you two recently decommissioned Krakens for training purposes.

OOC: Macross (I don't recall which # offhand)

We will make payments of 7 billion over 5 years, and we are very glad we have found this sub. Not only does it meet the combat minisub requirement, but it also gives the option to perform Tomahawk and SM-2/3 strikes.

Do you have full (Exact numbers, sensor systems, speed, propulsion, powerplant, size?) statistics on the submarine? (So I can RP it properly...)

We will make payments of 7 billion over 5 years, and we are very glad we have found this sub. Not only does it meet the combat minisub requirement, but it also gives the option to perform Tomahawk and SM-2/3 strikes.

Do you have full (Exact numbers, sensor systems, speed, propulsion, powerplant, size?) statistics on the submarine? (So I can RP it properly...)

Not at the moment. I'll try to get that to you ASAP.

Length: 300 ft
Main Powerplant: Radioisotope Thermoelectic Generator-Electric Drive
Auxiliary: Electric Battery
Propulsion: Six waterjet maneuvering thrusters, two shrouded propellors
Speed: 32 knots
Sonar System: Advanced Search and Targeting Sonar - The sonar array of the Kraken can track and identify up to 20 craft simultaneously. The system has a 12 nm active and a 16 nm passive range with 1 Convergence Zone. (A Convergence Zone is a sonar beam directed into very deep water, on the order of 1000 to 1500 fathoms; a combination of water pressure and temperature changes refract the beam back up to the surface, forming an annulus [the area between two concentric rings] at extreme range, 30+ nautical miles being common.)
Armament: Two supercavitating deck guns, six torpedo tubes, eight vertical launch cells