NationStates Jolt Archive

The International War is here: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=137024&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=80

The ARP (local uprising) is here:
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/posting.php?mode=reply&t=135758

The reclamation/rescue/aid in Nuevo Kowloon is HERE:
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=139225

This is the OOC thread so that the confusion can be decreased somewhat, and the in-story [ooc] arguments can bloody Cease.

OH, and Here's the Map of Antarctica:
http://snowylands.tripod.com

Please do not post [ic] here, this is for discussing the structure, geography, and military capabilities of the players, proposing strategy, and criticism-bordering-on-accusations-of-Godmoding/Godmodding.

A link to this thread will be posted on THAT thread.

taggith

Thanks, much for one OOC thread.

Oh, and ... TAG. :wink:

I'm thinking of adding an ooc Technology thread to move the arguments about what something does, and how much damage it might do to the real-estate/climate/condtion of the Planet.

What do y'all think?

I said it was like the maginot line, not exacly the same. It does have stingers AA guns as I said on the first page, but to help you, (I do want the emporer out.) I made it understaffed and also weaked in the east.

OOC: Nah, one OOC thread is good enough.

Logged and tagged.

OOC: Just a quick message for Dancing Moose, Wazican and Shinoxia.

We have no quarrel with you, this is against Aust. If you remove yourselves from this conflict immeadiately then no harm will come to your people. IF however you continue in your foolish defence of Aust's criminal regime you will unfortunately taste the wrath of the United States of Independent Hitmen and its allies.

You have 24 real life hours to pull out or i will begin planning to deal with you.

We are in agreement with our Independant Hitmen allies. Make no mistake about it, however, that once IH's deadline is up there will be no further reprieves.

OOC: Just a quick message for Dancing Moose, Wazican and Shinoxia.

We have no quarrel with you, this is against Aust. If you remove yourselves from this conflict immeadiately then no harm will come to your people. IF however you continue in your foolish defence of Aust's criminal regime you will unfortunately taste the wrath of the United States of Independent Hitmen and its allies.

You have 24 real life hours to pull out or i will begin planning to deal with you.

Explain to me how this is foolish. Aust is in our region, and as I have stated numerous times before we are bound by a treaty, and that is not going to change. If you guys are really thinking that because you are so big you are invincible, then at least acknowledge our millions of men us smaller nations are putting up in the defense of our region. Ill be back on in a bit.

OOC: Just a quick message for Dancing Moose, Wazican and Shinoxia.

We have no quarrel with you, this is against Aust. If you remove yourselves from this conflict immeadiately then no harm will come to your people. IF however you continue in your foolish defence of Aust's criminal regime you will unfortunately taste the wrath of the United States of Independent Hitmen and its allies.

You have 24 real life hours to pull out or i will begin planning to deal with you.

Explain to me how this is foolish. Aust is in our region, and as I have stated numerous times before we are bound by a treaty, and that is not going to change. If you guys are really thinking that because you are so big you are invincible, then at least acknowledge our millions of men us smaller nations are putting up in the defense of our region. Ill be back on in a bit.

Um... okay, the RL United States has a total military strength slightly over 2 million people-that's with about, what, 350 million at last (accurate) count?

An example nation of less than half a billion, should maybe be fielding twice that number, with Reserves. That 2 Million number is including NG and Reserves.
Most of that is supporting cast-Logistics, Admin, and Supporting functions like Medical and Paymaster.
One combat trooper has ten people who wear a uniform, but don't have to shoot the guns-because they're doing other jobs that keep the guys with the guns in the field.

Give an example: Two Carrier groups have around 66,340 personnel.(that's groups including LHA's)
16,400 of those are Marines.
Now, to support that 66,340 people on a yearly basis, there are around 600,000 supply pukes, Admin Pukes, Medical people, Maintenance people (in dock), etc-this doesn't include Intelligence personnel.
Now-at an average pay-rate of 18,000 dollars per year, the costs ramp up quick.
Soldiers aren't cheap to maintain, and we haven't even gone into the price of ammunition per man, cost of fuel for helos, jets, tanks, ships, trucks, and jeeps, hours spent on the road (wear and tear), and uniforms.

ON a lighter note: I mentioned Tech-specs as being one of the things to be discussed in here, this seems an ideal opportunity to offer the following challenge to everyone.

"What kind of Rifles are you Issuing, and why?"

The Rifle is the base of any infantry formation, it's the one universal factor.

Now, for quite a while, the NK's used a variant of the M-1 Garand rifle of WWII-it's still the standard arm, after more than eight decades.
Their variant changes two features:
1. it has a removable box magazine (Similar to the T-20 and T-22 prototypes that spawned the design of the M-14)Mag capacity of ten rounds

and
2. a three-prong flash hider similar to the one used on the M1 D.

Caliber is, of course, .30-06.

Rifle selection is one of the ways that infantry tactics are most influenced-or maybe rifle selection is determined by tactical dogmas.
Either way, they've been issuing and building the things for a very, very, long time, long after most of the rest of the world had gone to 5.56mm select-fire weapons, or medium-bore AK variants, both designed with an optimal combat range of 50-300 meters, using mass-fire tactics similar to the soviet model used in 1942-45 (Everyone fires as fast as they can, while only designated snipers actually engage in aimed fire.)

Rifle choice dictates tactics- the NK's have to shoot well, and they have to do so at long ranges. The difference being that .30-06 ammunition is capable of deadly fire out beyond 800 meters (aimed fire, as opposed to random), and the platform is suitable to this purpose.
Tradeoffs include diminished ammunition carrying capacity (one man carrying a basic load carries fewer rounds), and incompatibility with allied ammunition stocks (nobody uses .30-06 anymore in the quantities they did, ammunition compatibility is one of the reasons the NATO standard was adopted in the real world.)

Now, this ordinarily wouldn't be a problem for the stubborn little bastards in NK, but... when they initiated the Military Reform Programme in the aftermath of Blood Pass, several items were examined. First, the M-1NK was standardized and older model Garands were removed from Line service, and placed in the hands of District and Hamlet level militia (I.E. they were sold off and/or given away.)

A study was comissioned shortly before the Phyrric civil war to examine the possibility of adopting a smaller-bore, higher capacity weapon as general issue, to bring the NK military in line with standards adopted across the rest of the globe.
The performance of M-1 armed infantrymen in Corcyra against Assault-rifle armed infantrymen revealed two things that almost killed the study again:
1. Most assault-rifle types are ill-suited to hand-to-hand combat, several incidents where Rebel troops' M-16A2's and M-4 Carbines were broken at the joint by M-1 rifle butts in hand to hand combat revealed that the lightweight select-fire rifle types in general issue worldwide are somewhat less robust when they aren't firing bullets
and

2. That body-armour issued to the Rebels, while quite sufficient to stop 60-grain bullets at 3300 fps (or Soviet/AK bullets of 123 grains at 2200 fps), was not sufficient to stop 160 grain bullets at 2750 fps- the heavier Garand rounds penetrated some solid cover that lighter bullets did not (in one case, a Garand round penetrated the door of a five-ton truck, inflicting lethal wounds to both driver and passenger, in another case, a group of Rebel troopers hid in a row of culvert pipes, apparently believing the steel would deflect long-range fire. it did not.)

The results from the test, combined with on-site testimony, generated a second study one year later.
This study (conducted by an outside agency), concluded that the anecdotal evidence from the Phyrric War was insufficient to deny trials-especially in the wake of a budget surplus, to adopt a rifle more in line with the logistics of Nuevo Kowloon's primary allies, and to bring NK into line with most of the members of the Legion of Defense alliance.

The "Lightweight Rifle" project began with a series of trials to determine which 5.56mm rifle in production was most suitable for replacing the Garands already in service.

In this series of Trials (nicknamed "SALVO") the NK Military Replacement and Ordnance Command (based in Cam Ranh City) examined rifles from all over the world for durability, accuracy, simplicity of maintenance and simplicity of operation. (the fewer things you make a rifle do, the more rapidly a rifleman can be trained or adapted to use it effectively.)
None of the current production rifles passed the "Bayonet Course" section of the testing-where side loads equal to those exerted by a heavy rifle like the Garand are impacted onto the lateral facing of a rifle.
But, they saw some features they liked quite well in all of the entries.

Two years after the Phyrric War, under the direction of the Naval Office, the National Armoury at Nha Tranh was instructed to design and submit a rifle for testing that would hold up to the testing methods of the NKMROC, would be suitably accurate out to 500 meters, and could be produced with existing equipment at a reduced tooling cost.

One of the weapons from the first series was the Ruger Mini-14 (select fire model), another was the Winchester Light Weight Military Rifle (resurrected, no doubt, from some dusty archive in Massachusetts.)
These served as the basis of the new OD designed weapon-the Mini-14 for its use of a bolt and locking system identical to a scaled-down M-1 Garand, along with the Mini-14's concept of fixed-piston/moving gas-tube arrangement-which at the reciever end, tears down identically to the M-1 rifles already in service.
The Winchester was chosen for its stock-arrangement-which shields the full gas mechanism and prevents lateral strains on the rifle-barrel caused by the use of a sling (one of the features the original testers disliked about the AR-series rifles.)
the Magazine well was altered to accept the standard M-16/AR-15 magazines, to allow for compatibility with allied stocks of munitions and magazines.
Carbon-fibre was investigated as a rifle-stock material, and dismissed due to cost and quality control issues.
The Ordnance Lightweight uses a laminated hardwood stock instead, providing greater rigidity and moisture resistance to the Walnut, Applewood, and Beech riflestocks in use with the M1NK


The M-1NK weighs 13 lbs fully loaded, fires semi-automatically only, and has ten rounds in the magazine when fully loaded.

The Ordnance Lightweight weighs 7 lbs with a loaded 30-round magazine, has an overall length of 37.5 inches with a 24 inch barrel that is somewhat heavier in contour than the barrel used in the M-16A2 (Thicker barrel walls tend to increase accuracy and decrease recoil-punch). The stock layout is "Conventional"-that is, similar in design to many civilian hunting rifles. Like the Garand, the Lightweight can be dismantled without tools, and once dismantled, the trigger group is accessable for cleaning and maintenance (a major complaint by the testing group about the M-16/AR-15 family of rifles). The stock is, like the Garand and the Mini-14, a one-piece assembly secured at the reciever by pressure from the hinged triggerguard and the reciever upon assembly, eliminating sling-pressure from both the forend swivel, and the butt swivel.
Scope and Nightvision installation utilizes a single locking nut on the protruding left side of the reciever, stabilized by fixed pins in the manner of the Mini-14 "Ranch Rifle", and the scope mount itself is a picatinny rail-system-allowing both a variety of optics to be mounted, and allowing for the use of the "Iron sights" with optics mounted. (a feature based on complaints about the Armalite's scope mount interfering with or preventing the use of that design's iron sights as a backup.)

Upon the completion of Lab testing, one division of the NK Marine Corps was selected to test these rifles in daily use-the Second, which were to participate in mock-engagements, training, and other activities to demonstrate the true worthiness of the design. Large quantities of ammunition manufactured to the SS-109 standard were procured and provided-enough to more than triple the quantity of bullets available to the "Testing Group". The rifles, and ammunition, were embarked with the 2nd (and added to the small-arms magazines of the ships they are assigned to support), and the two Carrier Groups the 2nd Marine Division was assigned to, left port in January.
Palpatine took over in March of that year, and by April, Nuevo Kowloon as a nation was virtually annihilated.

Naturally, men trained to use a big-bore weapon are going to nickname its potential successor something demeaning.
"Mouseguns"- as in, "Suitable for mice, cockroaches, and other, small, inoffensive pests at close range."

Are you telling this to me? And if your are, what is your point?

Are you telling this to me? And if your are, what is your point?

Which post? The first one was directed at the argument about your numbers-"Millions" generally means more than one or two, and if you're deploying "Millions" outside your borders, it implies "Tens of Millions" of soldiers, since deploying one's entire army is stripping one not only of Logistical Support from the homeland, but also of local defense.
I was pointing out what the numbers actually mean when you post an "Army Size". Remember in the early stages, when you were first showing interest, and I told you that I had fifty Combatant ships, and two fifths of my Navy in that region? (War on Credonia thread).
Well, if my Navy is 500 ships, and I've got fifty combatant vessels, and I've told you (actually, one of my characters told you) that I had two fifths of my fleet in the area... How many non-combat ships (Service and Support) do I have?

If we let X=the number of Naval Vessels,
and we let Y=the number of NOn Combatants,

Y+50=X
Where X=(2/5)*500.

If we multiply 500 by 2/5, then, we get 200.

Y+50=200

Subtract 50 from both sides.

Y=150

Now, it's horribly impractical to have 150 ships lingering around the area, isn't it? Naturally, this would be a ridiculous number-ergo, there aren't 150 anything present there in-game NOW-there wouldn't be room to keep them all, and many of them are of types considered to be credible as Merchant vessels.

Ergo, the Non-Combatant ships unloaded their cargoes and departed over the five week period before anyone bothered to notice, you see?

But, the point of the original post, is that if you're going to field numbers the other side considers "Extreem", you need to justify those numbers by showing how you can do it, and admitting whatever basic limitations they might have.

You've posted stating you have a single system that cost over a Trillion Dollars to your nation alone, and the types and numbers of ships and vehicles you've posted, along with your statement of "Millions of Soldiers", well... something has to give somewhere.

So, it's back to either Logistics, or Training. One or the other, something has to give to make your claims work, and simple ranting and arguing isn't going to do it.

you're it

As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, all members of SLOA are bound by a treaty to defend each other, except in the case of one member attacking another. As a man of honour, I am bound by this treaty as well as all other nations in SLOA; and as such, I am obligated to assist in the defence of Aust.

PS: Before I forget, I must remind everyone that my colonies Tritonites, Nereidans, and Dionnians share the defence force with Moontian. This is because they are not really separate countries, but are just large autonomous republics, like Kazakhstan and Belorus during the Soviet era.

Oh, so puppets are permitted now?

As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, all members of SLOA are bound by a treaty to defend each other, except in the case of one member attacking another. As a man of honour, I am bound by this treaty as well as all other nations in SLOA; and as such, I am obligated to assist in the defence of Aust.

PS: Before I forget, I must remind everyone that my colonies Tritonites, Nereidans, and Dionnians share the defence force with Moontian. This is because they are not really separate countries, but are just large autonomous republics, like Kazakhstan and Belorus during the Soviet era.

Understood. I won't go into the moral implications of using treaty obligations to justify supporting the results of a violent coup, or of supporting a nation that has demonstrated the ability and willingness to stab its allies in the back. That's your call, but I understand your position. Remember: this is the OOC thread, that means it's player-to-player outside the story. I set it up because there was too much arguing on the main thread(s) about Rules, what's fair, and what nations can and can't do. That's for in here.
One of the stipulations on the main war thread, was a prohibition against something called "Puppet-Wanking". Now, that's a pretty crude term, but the meaning is pretty obvious.
I assume you have Players attatched to the Colonies you've listed-because otherwise, they are Puppets, and their involvement would then be "Puppet Wanking" (If I understand the post in question correctly...) As the only (Operational) member of the "Other side" on the boards right now, I have to look out for the interests of the other nations involved on the "Anti-Palpatine" side.
If USIH, Taiwan, and Phyrric are good with you using those as Autonomous Republics, and if Aust thinks it's cool, then I have no problem. I already know Dancing Moose and Wazican won't have a problem with it on your side of the fence, and Aust will probably want a "Yes".

What I'm saying is, I'm ambivalent to a point-the RP is Moderntech/some post-modern (About 2015 level tops), we've already pretty well set a "No-N00kz" rule after the ICBM strike on my nation in-game, but people are pretty twitchy about army-sizes (well, maybe not Phyrric, since he seems to have given up arguing and is answering claims in kind...), deployment timetables, where everyone is, and whether or not something is going to work/should work/did work. (In TG, when we were discussing it, Phyrric was inclined to field a much smaller, more realistic force. DM's insistence on vast hordes of advanced-moderntech forces after he lost the argument on redrawing the boundaries of the map after gameplay began convinced him to yank that decision and play in kind-which might serve as a warning to others, or not, depending on overall effect with the rest of the game.)


If the other "Attacking" coalition members agree you can use the Autonomous Republics, then, I'll buy in. If they don't, then I won't.

Moontian - If it's a spoil of war, yes (please provide relevant thread). If you created them and then linked them ICly together, no. That's puppetwanking.

This isn't the first time that I have been accused of what has now been called "puppet wanking," but I think that it is mainly the situation that people get confused about. I think I should clear it up here and now.

My questions to everyone are: did the Baltic republics have their own defence forces back in the Cold War? or Puerto Rico now?

Tritonites, Nereidans and Dionnians are autonomous only in political areas, and then not all that far. They are ruled by governors who report directly to me, as the leader of Moontian. All laws in place have to be approved by me, but spending is covered purely by the governors.
Militarily, the people of all four areas are combined into one army, often with all ethnicities represented on board a ship, etc. Attempting to separate them into a 'Moontian-only' force would be a logistical nightmare.

As for my technology, the only spacecraft that will be used are the satellite platforms, and their primary function is to take pictures and send the information to a headquarters on the planet.
As for all my other spacecraft; it's all well and good to have anti-matter weaponry, as long as the fighting isn't within the atmosphere. Otherwise, most of my spacecraft are completely useless.

OOC: DM if u havnt read my last post on the forum, the last bit deals with an attack on one of your carriers, r u gonna go along with it or not?

My questions to everyone are: did the Baltic republics have their own defence forces back in the Cold War? or Puerto Rico now?

There is a difference, the US recognized their independence in the Baltic areas as did most of the world, hence, they had independent thought and there are instances that after they were admitted into the UN and did not vote in favor of the USSR. This is a huge difference than that of puppets, independent thought. You directly control these puppets and they have absolutely no say other than what you chose. No puppets. DT has already set this presidence time and time again.

It was already agreed no spacetech/futuretech. I asked Axis to chill out, please do the same.

Yeah i agree about the space nation bit, Phyrric we need to talk strategy as well via tg i think, ill send you one when im finished here.

This isn't the first time that I have been accused of what has now been called "puppet wanking," but I think that it is mainly the situation that people get confused about. I think I should clear it up here and now.

My questions to everyone are: did the Baltic republics have their own defence forces back in the Cold War? or Puerto Rico now?

Tritonites, Nereidans and Dionnians are autonomous only in political areas, and then not all that far. They are ruled by governors who report directly to me, as the leader of Moontian. All laws in place have to be approved by me, but spending is covered purely by the governors.
Militarily, the people of all four areas are combined into one army, often with all ethnicities represented on board a ship, etc. Attempting to separate them into a 'Moontian-only' force would be a logistical nightmare.

As for my technology, the only spacecraft that will be used are the satellite platforms, and their primary function is to take pictures and send the information to a headquarters on the planet.
As for all my other spacecraft; it's all well and good to have anti-matter weaponry, as long as the fighting isn't within the atmosphere. Otherwise, most of my spacecraft are completely useless.

Okay... so you're a futuretech nation.
what's the tech level of your ground forces, then? I'm not looking for exact numbers, but if it's too advanced, you're going to need to knock back a few decades or you won't be getting very far, because most of our side simply won't acknowledge the posts, and that's a drag when it happens.


As for the colonies/puppets: I propose a compromise.
You only field what you alone could have managed without the input from the Colonies-call it having other commitments in other theaters or something, but as long as you stay "Under" what your size and budget alone (without the Autonomous Republics) could provide, you can have personnel from those places intermixed, after all, many nations have minority populations in their armed forces, and keep posts inside the game to Your Nation's "Handle".

If this compromise sounds fair to you, I think I might be able to get Taiwan and the rest to buy off on it on my side. (Preventing said logistical nightmare, and preventing accusations from flying, before they start.)


Orbital Platforms. How many, what type, keep exact positions to your self until you use 'em, but if they're ridiculously overpowered, there will be problems and they won't be as effective as theory says they should be.

I used a Thor's Hammer in the earlier thread, compared to the more conventional stuff thrown by Aust, it was proportionally ineffective-though it did lots and lots of very ugly damage when he posted losses, they were no where near the level he did-part of that is because there were fewer of the crowbars, none of them left lingering radiation or poisons, and for the most part they weren't targeted on population centres- militarily, it was near completely useless and did little proportional damage to his forces. Still, it made a nice mess of things, esp. in the upper atmosphere, and on geological "Soft points"- Thor is actually 1960's technology, the U.S. Army ran tests in '63 but abandoned it because, as I found out, it's tactically next to useless against anything that isn't stationary-though something that has the sectional density and energy to penetrate down and pulverize bedrock is kinda neat. Based on my experience in-game so far, Orbital platforms are a-ok with me, but don't expect them to be terribly effective as combatant units-though additional commo and spysat capability is an excellent force-multiplier.

D***, why will future tech be allowed? I was all excited about getting in (finally, after a heck of a week in college) and they come up with this? I want Near Future tech only as, almost for sure, Phyrric and others will.

About the puppets, read the message I posted for you NK (you know where). Why not work out a better deal fro everyone? Maybe allowing the territory of the puppets to be used?

D***, why will future tech be allowed? I was all excited about getting in (finally, after a heck of a week in college) and they come up with this? I want Near Future tech only as, almost for sure, Phyrric and others will.

About the puppets, read the message I posted for you NK (you know where). Why not work out a better deal fro everyone? Maybe allowing the territory of the puppets to be used?

Um, It won't. Postmodern stuff (tech limit 2015 A.D.) only (That limit was established quite early, which is why Phyrric mentioned it...)-though I think we could negotiate something, which is why I proposed a compromise to allow Moontian to join in the fun.
Good to see you can join in B.

I'll go check the messages now, and come back with a fresh proposal.

S. American staging bases were already mentioned by Taiwan, and Bariloche's position in its region being what it is, having "Coaling Stations" isn't unreasonable. Using the Populations and Military Budgets of your puppets, now that's probably a bad idea, but having a port or something probably won't upset too many things-in this case, you have to get the SLOA nations to buy off on it, just like Moontian needs to get the LoD nations (along with Independent Hitmen) to buy off on what he wants to use. They're likely going to want to be very restrictive about what you can bring to the party, you should make sure that if you have a map you're using,that you don't post it until you're sure it's right.
(there was a nasty argument about map-layouts earlier, and there are lingering bad feelings about the issue. Be warned.)

Ok my way of thinkin is that satelites are fine, i use em myself, and also a manned one sounds ok, camera wise as long as its near future tech thats also fine. However no big orbital lasers of that stuuf incase your bringing it outta the woodwork. and i know that people say an ak will kill you the same as a plasma rifle but id prefer if we stuck to modern weapons on that front too.

Ok my way of thinkin is that satelites are fine, i use em myself, and also a manned one sounds ok, camera wise as long as its near future tech thats also fine. However no big orbital lasers of that stuuf incase your bringing it outta the woodwork. and i know that people say an ak will kill you the same as a plasma rifle but id prefer if we stuck to modern weapons on that front too.

absolutely

Are you telling this to me? And if your are, what is your point?

Which post? The first one was directed at the argument about your numbers-"Millions" generally means more than one or two, and if you're deploying "Millions" outside your borders, it implies "Tens of Millions" of soldiers, since deploying one's entire army is stripping one not only of Logistical Support from the homeland, but also of local defense.
I was pointing out what the numbers actually mean when you post an "Army Size". Remember in the early stages, when you were first showing interest, and I told you that I had fifty Combatant ships, and two fifths of my Navy in that region? (War on Credonia thread).
Well, if my Navy is 500 ships, and I've got fifty combatant vessels, and I've told you (actually, one of my characters told you) that I had two fifths of my fleet in the area... How many non-combat ships (Service and Support) do I have?

If we let X=the number of Naval Vessels,
and we let Y=the number of NOn Combatants,

Y+50=X
Where X=(2/5)*500.

If we multiply 500 by 2/5, then, we get 200.

Y+50=200

Subtract 50 from both sides.

Y=150

Now, it's horribly impractical to have 150 ships lingering around the area, isn't it? Naturally, this would be a ridiculous number-ergo, there aren't 150 anything present there in-game NOW-there wouldn't be room to keep them all, and many of them are of types considered to be credible as Merchant vessels.

Ergo, the Non-Combatant ships unloaded their cargoes and departed over the five week period before anyone bothered to notice, you see?

But, the point of the original post, is that if you're going to field numbers the other side considers "Extreem", you need to justify those numbers by showing how you can do it, and admitting whatever basic limitations they might have.

You've posted stating you have a single system that cost over a Trillion Dollars to your nation alone, and the types and numbers of ships and vehicles you've posted, along with your statement of "Millions of Soldiers", well... something has to give somewhere.

So, it's back to either Logistics, or Training. One or the other, something has to give to make your claims work, and simple ranting and arguing isn't going to do it.

Im not the only one (in the area of Rocky Bambino) putting in troops. If you would actualy pay attention and look on page two of the war thread then you would have figured out that I myself only put in half a mill.

Well something might 'give' if Shinoxia hadnt have helped buy the MADAE system, lol, so no im not godmodding if thats what your implying.

OOC: DM if u havnt read my last post on the forum, the last bit deals with an attack on one of your carriers, r u gonna go along with it or not?

Hmm I havent been on in a while but ill go check it out right now..

Aust, I will give you that one, but for future reference, please do not assume that my leaders are stupid and fall for a trap. Damn near every soldier is a veteran as Phyrric has been at war with someone since this nation was established. They are very seasoned and know how to kill, and they are excellent at it.

Lets keep this friendly, I am posting losses and giving you the benefit of the doubt as far as being the local, but treat the forces as 'intelligent' please.

BTW, what is the status of enemy forces in or around RB?

I see you said something about one of my carriers.... but did you actually make an attack? Or do you want me to respond to your staging of an attack...

If you want hostilities toward me, then we need to post an attack. As I had mentioned before, the war is with Aust. You want war with me, then you have to start it. I did post what is present and bear in mind, the forces are quite large.

I just want to know what is around the area of RB.

If you want hostilities toward me, then we need to post an attack. As I had mentioned before, the war is with Aust. You want war with me, then you have to start it. I did post what is present and bear in mind, the forces are quite large.

I just want to know what is around the area of RB.

Okay, playing it "Straight", most of RB's territory is open for SLOA forces coming down from DM's side of the continent unless you've secured it. The area from the Bay, up to Aust in a 75 mile wide corridor is ours. (this is based on what could be held and patrolled given your forces and mine)
There's probably another 150 miles to either side of that corridor that's covered by Combat Air Patrols, since your staging areas and mine are a beachhead.

Now, if he's playing this the way he should be, we shouldn't know unless we specify we're looking, whether the SLOA armies (and their accompaniment) are coming across overland until they reach the 200 mile marker, which is the rational limit of what we can react to with anything other than raw airpower.

Without real-time sattelite coverage, we won't see anything beyond 500 miles anyway-it's over the horizon, and while we've got assets on the highlands, and currently have air-superiority in the area, that can change.

He's already posted how many troops he's sending, and indicated a good explanation for how he can have both MADAE and the army he's got. I'm pretty well satisfied on that, so it's no longer an issue, unless someone else has a problem with it that I don't see.

The only defect with this, is if he's coming up the coastal or mountain sides of the country (extreme north or south), because on the South side, I've got recon units that will notice and report well outside the 2-500 mile range, while on the North shore-side, there are spotter and listening posts that will detect an advance well ahead of that distance and report it.
(Hah! Freebie!! though not really-once the attack from RB began, it could be logically inferred that LoD or Allied troops are in-country, and would set up detection or reconaissance networks to secure their flanks. Only an idiot would assume otherwise, and a dedicated search-to-neutralize would have to begin.) Naturally listening posts and recon groups are not going to be easy targets, since only the emperor of the kingdom of fools would leave a gap like that after exploiting a similar one. For now, (in order to keep this on a working level for all sides)

I suggest DM use small, hard to see recon groups in RB, while he masses his forces for the offensive in staging areas under fighter and ADA protection-it's only a suggestion, since a frontal assault against the areas held by NK and Phyrric forces would be suicidally stupid even with overwhelming numbers. When you're running an army, losses, even ones you can replace, hurt, and there are more forces on the way than just the ones on the continent right now, and even REALLY GOOD sattelite imagery isn't a replacement for forward observers who can see things camouflaged from orbital observation. (Not that I'm saying there are such things, but anyone who lives in the age of Sattelite Recon knows that eyes-in-the-sky are not Omniscient, and can be fooled if the other guy knows anything about how they work.)

Moontian, do you have a factbook or a thread to back it up?

I will pledge my support for Aust and will be forced to deploy troops in the event of him being attacked. Why has everyone made everything so complicated? (Different types of rifles, formulae, detailed info on terrain) Why can't there just be a good old fashioned war? These unnecessary complications will no doubt result in many nations not abiding by the rules because they don't understand them. (Namely me)!

(Resists temptation to be blunt)

I see you said something about one of my carriers.... but did you actually make an attack? Or do you want me to respond to your staging of an attack...

I kinda wanted you to respond to the staging, because i didnt want to godmod an attack without you being ok with it. I was thinking of just damaging your carrier and then my sub stays on the bottom till your escorts get it back to base to repair it. That way minimal loss of life but it shows my allies i am commited, and you can decide the level of damage, unlike if i tried to sink it.

Now, if he's playing this the way he should be, we shouldn't know unless we specify we're looking, whether the SLOA armies (and their accompaniment) are coming across overland until they reach the 200 mile marker, which is the rational limit of what we can react to with anything other than raw airpower.

He's already posted how many troops he's sending, and indicated a good explanation for how he can have both MADAE and the army he's got. I'm pretty well satisfied on that, so it's no longer an issue, unless someone else has a problem with it that I don't see.

I suggest DM use small, hard to see recon groups in RB, while he masses his forces for the offensive in staging areas under fighter and ADA protection-it's only a suggestion, since a frontal assault against the areas held by NK and Phyrric forces would be suicidally stupid even with overwhelming numbers. When you're running an army, losses, even ones you can replace, hurt, and there are more forces on the way than just the ones on the continent right now, and even REALLY GOOD sattelite imagery isn't a replacement for forward observers who can see things camouflaged from orbital observation. (Not that I'm saying there are such things, but anyone who lives in the age of Sattelite Recon knows that eyes-in-the-sky are not Omniscient, and can be fooled if the other guy knows anything about how they work.)

Thank you for understanding all of that, and yes, I probably will use my special forces more than anything else, and only use my army (which I will station in the umm north-western corner of RB?) under air cover, when its available. Sour Patch Kids (a nation) will be helping me with the planes, he has created quite alot, so air cover wont be too much of a problem. Just for your future reference, we also use satellite coverage over our region to our advantage 24/7, and it too is of our own design.

I see you said something about one of my carriers.... but did you actually make an attack? Or do you want me to respond to your staging of an attack...

I kinda wanted you to respond to the staging, because i didnt want to godmod an attack without you being ok with it. I was thinking of just damaging your carrier and then my sub stays on the bottom till your escorts get it back to base to repair it. That way minimal loss of life but it shows my allies i am commited, and you can decide the level of damage, unlike if i tried to sink it.

Alright, I will respond to _Taiwan too, but first, since I have been gone for a bit, and havent had time to read, can I get relatively accurate positions on yours and _Taiwans fleet? Or where you might be staging air raids from? My fleet , as you might know, is about 3-400 miles off RB's coast.

I will pledge my support for Aust and will be forced to deploy troops in the event of him being attacked. Why has everyone made everything so complicated? (Different types of rifles, formulae, detailed info on terrain) Why can't there just be a good old fashioned war? These unnecessary complications will no doubt result in many nations not abiding by the rules because they don't understand them. (Namely me)!

OKAY... Blue Eagle, you've got some good people on your side, coordinate with them before you post, and you should be alright as far as the details go.
As for why this can't be "Just a good old fashioned war", it's because we're not playing muzzle-loading muskets in lines three deep at fifty paces, and nobody's using pikes, mounted horsemen, and longbows as primary armament with armies that have to be in range of their commander's actual voice to function.

This is Modern warfare, Stealth, Logistics, and Reconaissance counts for more than raw firepower or raw numbers in Modern conflicts, and travel-time/mustering time/planning have an impact far in excess of what most persons of non-military background would believe.

Your side should have some kind of overall grand-strategy. Given the map, with your entry into the conlict, there are several positioning moves you can make to give your side an advantage.

Aust, your losses are going to have to be extremely heavier than 5 tanks and a few men. If there were 200,000 armed citizens in that pass, most would be dead now. O2 masks do not help you against napalm. Napalm is a sticky gasoline that burns everything at an extremely high heat, and keeps exploding and exploding and exploding. It would not matter if you were in cover of trees, bushes, walls, etc because the gas expands and burns quickly, the interaction with oxygen makes it burn much more fiercely, so, if your men are wearing O2 masks, they are roasted.

With the ordinance that was dropped on the sight, there is no living vegitation on either mountain in that pass. Nothing but twigs and corps. Bambi is ready to eat.

Could i have losses for my cruise missile and stealth attacks as well please?

Are you talking to me? I dont see where you actually launched anything at me ships... but anyways... I need the positions on yours and _Taiwans ships.

Sorry i forgot about that, that was for aust.

My ships are about 2 days sailing away from the north of antarctica, thats the first ten carriers. The transports and another carrier force are 36 hours behind them with more loading up in my nation now. However i have a number of subs there already. 2 SSN's to the east next to blue eagles coast and one ready to ambush one of your carrier group that is going towards the landing sites

Well, its not heading there anymore, see the bottom of page 2 in this thread.

I might not make a post until monday on this, do be patient as it is the bunny day, resurrection day for others, including my family and i will be with them on that occasion, so do not expect a whole lot going on for the next 48 hours

Are you talking to me? I dont see where you actually launched anything at me ships... but anyways... I need the positions on yours and _Taiwans ships.

*My ASCMs should take around 3 minutes to arrive. Flying in a low-low profile, they stay beneath the ship's radar horizon until 20-30km away, which would give 20-30 seconds reaction time.
*My subs are all around 300km from your furtherest battlegroup (from the shore)

Interesting... and what about my satellite coverage? Would they not pick up take-offs? I will RP along damages if I am wrong

Too small.

I dont see how that can jam CIWS systems, but ok, they will switch to an IR system and lock on to tail fire.

IMO, it wasent very smart to send so many expensive missiles, you are going to lose alot since they are surface skimming.

I see you've changed your mind about about the sub? Also from that range it is highly unlikely that your ships would get a ping off of an LA class! American sonars can barely track them for more than a few minutes! Also its standing still so its virtually silent and its covered in rubber tiles which absorb and dont refelect the sonar waves!

As I said, I did retreat all my civvilians, (something to do with the city seeming far safer.) I know I will have more casultys, and I will post them. HAs the naplam dropped yet? As for the naplam, the troops are in 'holes' these are covered in soil, with corragated iron roofs, now lets suppose that they didn't all hold, indeed their not going to, some may survive however naplam sucks oxygen and they hope to live so they wear oxygen masks.

As I said, I did retreat all my civvilians, (something to do with the city seeming far safer.) I know I will have more casultys, and I will post them. HAs the naplam dropped yet? As for the naplam, the troops are in 'holes' these are covered in soil, with corragated iron roofs, now lets suppose that they didn't all hold, indeed their not going to, some may survive however naplam sucks oxygen and they hope to live so they wear oxygen masks.

The problem with Holes is that Napalm is runny. that is, it drips, and like any liquid, it seeks its own level.
corrugated sheet means you've got gaps for the nasty stuff to drip in through, given the slope and volume of the terrain (as role-played), and the volume of Jellied Gasoline delivered, I'd say you're looking at serious casualties from burns, both in dead, and on top of the dead, wounded-to-combat-ineffective.
Third degree burns aren't something you can pop a pill and feel better enough to keep fighting after you get-the meat's cooked, and the temperatures in a Napalm-fueled inferno are high enough to deform aluminum (or melt it outright), trigger "Cook Off" in ammunition, (That assault rifle? it just became a claymore), and ignite Kevlar and nylon, melt plastics (Canteens, for instance, or LCE vests, straps on night-vision goggles and gas-masks...) Being ground zero for a Napalm strike is a low-survivability situation. being ground zero for several strikes at once, is a good way to say "G'night Gracie"-the reactions feed off of each other, and even PAINT will burn under those circumstances-from the heat (Cinderblock cracks, too.. it's not nice.)

I dont see how that can jam CIWS systems, but ok, they will switch to an IR system and lock on to tail fire.

IMO, it wasent very smart to send so many expensive missiles, you are going to lose alot since they are surface skimming.

I believe the term he used was "Evading"-which means "Pop-up" missiles.
CIWS has a limited arc-of-fire, and at the speeds those are flying in, they may well have no exhaust to lock on-to (Propellant burn-out leaves it gliding at a speed that gives a ballistic trajectory as opposed to a rocket-type-which leaves your IR systems in the cold). Jamming is possible with Phalanx type weapons if you're using radar-counter-signals can be sent on the right bands of frequencies to either confuse, or overload, the detection system.

Today, on "Talking Tech", we'll discuss Naval Tech-things you and I have each developed, to ease understandings before our forces meet, and prevent errors of stupidity.

Nuclear Submarines are pretty noisy beasts, most of the tech development IRL with them in the last forty years, has been to reduce this unfortunate state of affairs. The problem, is the Pumps. Nuke subs have to have a constant flow of water through the Reactor to keep it from overheating.

One of the first ways this noise was abated, was the Narwhal class submarine, which uses a "Natural flow" or convection effect to provide quiet, efficient, flow of vital water to the reactor core. The Los Angeles class attack submarine uses a variation of this technology today, and combined with an efficient, low-cavitation propellor grind, it is the quietest RL nuclear sub in existence (this is also thanks to the sound-deadening double-hull construction, which prevents interior sounds from reaching the outside, and the rubber "Bumper" tiles covering the surface, which absorb sound-waves rather than reflecting them back-creating a "Hole in the water" effect)
There is one other sub type, that while submerged, is very, very, quiet.
The Diesel-Electric sub.
Diesel-Electrics have a singular defect that prevents them from being the premier hunter-killer subs in the Oceans of the world-they have to surface fairly frequently to recharge their batteries using the Diesel-turbine generators with which they are equipped.
This isn't good for being "Sneaky" over long periods of time, but they are cheaper, and don't generate a trail of "Hot water" that can be followed the way Nuke subs do when they're submerged.

How, then, do we squeeze the benefits of the one, with the benefits of the other?

Fuel Cell technology has been with mankind since the 1930's.
Fuel Cells don't produce much excess heat, they don't make noise.
Some types can act as "Capacitors" or Batteries.
Submarines already have equipment to separate the ocean water into drinkable water, and split out the free oxygen in seawater for the crew-this tech was current when the Nautilus (the world's first nuke sub) made its circumnavigation of the globe in the mid-'fifties.

Hmmm....

Okay, imagine taking a Narwhal (or other mid-sized attack sub), wrapping it in a "Rubber coating" with tiles on the hatches and tube-doors. You aren't going to pack missiles on this ship, it's under-water only.
Yank the power-plant, you don't need that type for this job.
Instead, you add a fuel-cell of a... certain rating. (Probably a bank of them. Hydrogen types with a system for either straining out free hydrogen, or breaking it down...) and a diesel for backup and recharging the capacitors in an emergency.
Sounds quiet, doesn't it?
it is.
It's also Cheaper to build than a Nuke boat if you do it from keel-up.
This being Postmodern tech-levels, we'll assume a decent efficiency on the Fuel-Cells, which are, after all, basically 1930's tech refined.
Add in a good prop grind (Caterpillars like in Red October are huge power-hawgs... you don't want to eat that many Megawatts for that little output, and refrigerated gasses are dangerous to handle in rough seas.)
Say, equivalent to an Ohio or other Cold-War quiet "Boomer" (LA class is noisier than the Ohios, which is why the O's are still in service in the post-cold war world).
Now...
It's quiet, but active Sonar is still a problem, isn't it?
Sonar can work with just about anything as a sound source, if you have the processing capability to sort out the noise-the main reason "Pings" are still in use, is that they're the most "Efficient", but they're also a dead-giveaway.
Nuevo Kowloon's got good ELINT tech, and good computer tech, even if they scrimp on big, flashy, stuff, and have been using the same basic rifles since world war two, with a few korean-era refinements.
What's an attack sub for, and how do you use it?
Well... an attack sub is to sink stuff, right? right. but how you use it when it's not sinking stuff is another question in the entirety.
For instance, flailing around with Active Sonar is a bad, bad, idea-pinging off the undersea tells the universe down there where you are.
Electronic Interception-now, that's a pretty neat idea. If you give up sheer numbers of weapons, you can put some pretty serious electronics inside a hull, and longwave radio signals penetrate seawater pretty reliably (they're the only way mr. Submariner can call the sattelite, and they aren't directional, folks, it's like being on AM-if someone's reciever is listening to the right band of stations, they can hear you... understanding demands decryption, while not being decrypted requires encryption.)

NK boats don't have very many torpedoes, and the Torps they have are pretty much the garden-variety 18 inchers used almost everywhere.
They have "big ears" though-they can listen quietly to signals, and have decryption capacity above 16 Gigabytes (Yeah, LOTS of gear...) on a hull that can survive extreme depths.
The favourite "Sonar" pattern of NK subs is "Whale songs". With that much processing power, they can mimic pods of whales and other ceteceans-which the Antarctic has a plentitude. Combined with the six-inch "blubber" rubber-coating on the hull, it's hard to tell whether it's a pod of whales, or a sub, that's following you, frolicking in the bay, whatever.
(85% chance to miss, reduce by 5% for every ten years past 2000 A.D. your tech level is, at 2080 levels, 100% chance of detecting the sub as a sub when relying solely on technological means... People-skill changes the numbers, but better be roleplayed with an explanation of why-and just saying "He's Experienced" isn't enough-a genuine interest in Whales would work.)

Just thought id pop in and wish everybody a happy easter!

Aid and recovery efforts:
I've begun posting the results for those nations that have sent (or are sending) humanitarian missions to Nuevo Kowloon-these are ahead of the War-stage actions since the Armies of the various nations are currently several thousand miles away, and the front lines have changed.
As the game-timeline in Antarctica catches up with the timeline for NK (it will happen, thinks I, very soon), the two will come into synch.

One thing to remember, is that this kind of sheer volume of damage can serve as a Laboratory exercise in a host of areas such as Civil Defense, development of Chemical counter-agents, and Environmental Cleanup of toxic waste.

USIH, Phyrric, Taiwan, and any others who've sent teams will also have an ample source of "Propoganda" material they can use to motivate their forces and smear the SLOA nations' reputations.

I sent BBC a TG with an interview with one of NK's last surviving government officials (she was out of the country when the attack was launched, when it landed, and when the death tolls started to rack up.)

In it, she will say (if he posts it) that the SLOA nations acting on Aust's behalf are morally equal to the Austian Emperor, she will compare them to Nazis, and she will curse them in the interview, stating a belief that they have shown their true moral colours, and deserve whatever happens to them.
"If it bleeds, it leads" is a base principle of News-Slaughtered women and children are the exact sort of thing that Leads in News coverage, and a politician calling some other Pol a War Criminal for his choice of side is the sort of thing that makes for good TeeVee.

Death count in NK as of the five-day post: 310 million and rising.

Tactical Specialties

Every nation has 'em, and every Alliance is improved by having nations that do some jobs very well at the expense of other jobs.
Moontian seems to be the "Space Specialists" in SLOA, Aust appears to have provided brute economic and airpower, Dancing Moose shows promise as a wet-Naval power (so does Wazican...).

What tactical specialties a nation has, tends to determine the best employment of their forces.

Nuevo Kowloon does "The little things" very, very, well, while Phyrric has the raw strength and QRF (Quick Reaction Forces) game as his apparent focus, along with a strong and powerful Naval presence.
USIH also does the small things well, but shows a "Holistic" approach-a strong Naval arm, with good Special Forces attached, and a fairly good grasp on Logistics and Power-Projection. USIH and Phyrric both have a higher "Average" of advanced-tech systems and weapons than little old NK had.
NK has an emphasis on recon/combat engineering, and supply. Their tanks aren't as New or efficient as their allies, their AF never had Intercontinental Range, and their Navy was relatively small-focused more on acting as a supplement to allied forces, rather than fully-independent operations-they have more Oilers and UnRep ships than their combatant fleet would ever be able to utilize efficiently.
Similarly, the bulk of NK's "Ground Force" troops are actually what most armies use in smaller numbers by percentage. Reconaissance, combat-engineering, and in-the-field defense are emphasized over direct power-projection, and Infantry is emphasized over armoured forces.

this isn't to say that they can't do the direct, head-to-head fighting, it's just not their main focus, their tanks are comparable if average taken individually (though the spending on Electronics gives them an edge in coordinated movement over less digitally integrated forces), their Aircraft are individually inferior, but share data across a network-IVIS for the Air, enabling them to successfully engage opponents that are "Technically" superior with a significant chance of success, and the ability to confer those advantages to their allies by taking specialist roles that free up allied units to do what they do best-which changes the tactical equation overall by changing the conditions of the fighting.

By supplementing allied fuel and supplies, it allows allied forces (Like Taiwan, Phyrric, or USIH) to bring more "Boom" to the party per-man, than might otherwise be logistically possible, and by recon and beachead establishment (building up staging areas, scouting ahead or to the flanks, etc.) the NK's make the job of allied forces that much easier, as well as extending allied lines of offense, and boosting the ability of allied forces to repel or break an attack (both through better on-the-ground information, and a better defensive situation in a shorter period of time.)

That's the doctrine, anyway.

What's actually happening is pretty much "To Doctrine", but there are a few gaps:
1. NK was hit first, supplemental supply runs are much more difficult now, and additional forces from the home-country aren't in the offing.

2. The forces outside the "Exclusion Zone" around Antarctica (i.e. not in the fight) belonging to NK aren't readily available (the other three fifths of their navy is dealing with damage and shortages, and many vessels are laid up in friendly ports or assisting the rescue efforts in their home country. only a handfull are actually southbound, and may not reach the blockade line for weeks-if-ever). This leaves the forces that were already in the theatre, or en-route, (the two NK CBG's and their Support elements) "Stranded" until the blockade can be broken.

3. The time spent setting up the defensive perimeters areound the landing zones and beachead prevented some early reconaissance from being done until after Phyrric landed forces, giving the Defenders in Aust an advantage they used to fairly good effect in the pass leading to Ridgeville.

I dont see how that can jam CIWS systems, but ok, they will switch to an IR system and lock on to tail fire.

IMO, it wasent very smart to send so many expensive missiles, you are going to lose alot since they are surface skimming.

I believe the term he used was "Evading"-which means "Pop-up" missiles.
CIWS has a limited arc-of-fire, and at the speeds those are flying in, they may well have no exhaust to lock on-to (Propellant burn-out leaves it gliding at a speed that gives a ballistic trajectory as opposed to a rocket-type-which leaves your IR systems in the cold). Jamming is possible with Phalanx type weapons if you're using radar-counter-signals can be sent on the right bands of frequencies to either confuse, or overload, the detection system.

Well, in the first place, I meant that he would lose more from crashing into the ocean than he would from CIWS systems. Another thing, a missile going mach 2.8 wont be able to move up or down at all, or even side to side. Its path is pretty much a direct shot, so if my ships were moving, then his luck at hitting the expected ship would drastically decline, thus rendering the word "Evading" useless. Even if my detection systems were somehow rendered useless by this godmod rocket (as I have dubbed it), then they would still be able to put a pretty formidable wall of led by blind firing, all of this happening in a matter of seconds.

No, only the Soviet designs of the 50s would crash into the sea. The R.L Yakhont has a terminal velocity of Mach 2.5 and can do evasive moves.

You're also ignoring the effect of reaction time. Subsonic sea-skimmers missiles give a few minutes, allowing time to prepare ECMs and AEGIS guided countermeasures. The reaction time for the NF-3 would be 40 seconds tops, based on a ship radar.

No, only the Soviet designs of the 50s would crash into the sea. The R.L Yakhont has a terminal velocity of Mach 2.5 and can do evasive moves.

You're also ignoring the effect of reaction time. Subsonic sea-skimmers missiles give a few minutes, allowing time to prepare ECMs and AEGIS guided countermeasures. The reaction time for the NF-3 would be 40 seconds tops, based on a ship radar.

Let's cut an average-the DM fleet's set up to blockade, and knows that there's an enemy force coming that probably won't be deterred by mere presence-ECM systems would be "Hot" on the outlying vessels as a matter of course.
Taiwan's subs are attacking from a direction that may, or may not, be anticipated. Ergo, some missiles will miss, some will be stopped, and some will hit-and of those, some will do damage sufficient to be termed "Lethal"-it's the fortunes of war, nobody's attack or defense is impenetrable, just very, very, difficult.
Depending on how dense the DM fleet formation is, there could be overlap against the missiles (but this predicates a very, very, dense formation indeed-one that is vulnerable to a host of other attacks, and not very good at reacting quickly to threats bypassing them), or, it could be spread out for coverage-in which case, it's each and every ship for himself defensively, and some will be better prepared than others, some will have mechanical failures (no system built is 100% all the time), and some will just be unlucky.

No, Taiwan, im talking about your Nafung missile (or what the hell ever its called) not soviet missiles. If a missile traveling at that speed tried to manuever, then it would break up over its own velocity. It doesnt matter if the reaction time is 40 seconds, even 30, the CIWS is built on responding as quickly as possible.

Also, since your missiles travel so fast, its simply not possible for them to avoid the waves of the ocean as they are sea-skimming. Like I said, many of them would be lost due to this.

Nuevo Kowloon, I never said that my ships were setting up a blockade, well, I got ignored for mines, but that doesnt mean my ships are in a blockade formation. It is also up to me to chose their formation as they are now, whether they are close together or not.

No, Taiwan, im talking about your Nafung missile (or what the hell ever its called) not soviet missiles. If a missile traveling at that speed tried to manuever, then it would break up over its own velocity. It doesnt matter if the reaction time is 40 seconds, even 30, the CIWS is built on responding as quickly as possible.

Also, since your missiles travel so fast, its simply not possible for them to avoid the waves of the ocean as they are sea-skimming. Like I said, many of them would be lost due to this.

Nuevo Kowloon, I never said that my ships were setting up a blockade, well, I got ignored for mines, but that doesnt mean my ships are in a blockade formation. It is also up to me to chose their formation as they are now, whether they are close together or not.


Hang on! I didn't mean to presume on you as far as your formations go-that's your business, but you should probably account for 'em since they're being attacked, shouldn't you?

As for Waves, that's a given-the Antarctic Ocean (yeah, it has its own name) is known to have some of the heaviest crest/trough action in the world-wave heights of more than 100 feet are common- this is due to the lack of interrupting features to slow it down.
(there's a great pic in one of my textbooks from last year's Oceanography class-a carrier with the foredeck bent DOWN like a limp piece of pasta-it was bashed by wave-strikes. NASTY.)

Ok, then there you go. Also, some points I forgot to mention.... not only would CIWS have a chance at stopping them, but so would RAM. Since it shoots missiles in a CIWS pattern, this would greatly affect the sucess of your missiles.

If you do try to ignore me again, then why dont you look into the fact that iceshelves surround the shore of RB. So there, we (the Antarctic nations) already have a right to ignore you.

Manuevers are not a problem. Like I said before, the Real Life Yakhont SS-N-26 are capable of them at Mach 2.5

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Yakhont.html

RAMs are untested again manuvering supersonic sea-skimmers.

Fine, just say many are lost to the waves.

Ok, im getting someone else in here who knows alot more on missiles than me to argue that point.

If that missile can jam radar, then it cant possibly have radar. In retrospect, this would deplete the missiles ability to manuever (giving that it even can).

The faster the missile goes, actually, the more it is visible to IR systems. You see, Speed=heat. The faster it goes, the more fuel it burns.

Ok, im getting someone else in here who knows alot more on missiles than me to argue that point.

If that missile can jam radar, then it cant possibly have radar. In retrospect, this would deplete the missiles ability to manuever (giving that it even can).

The faster the missile goes, actually, the more it is visible to IR systems. You see, Speed=heat. The faster it goes, the more fuel it burns.

1. Active Radar Cancellation - broadcasts a wave 180 degrees out of sync with the radar waves, cancelling it out.
2. Correct.

Okay, okay, let’s start from the top…

It was stated that this missile uses active radar jamming by firing back cancellation waves. This method, though effective in theory (I use it on my NS stuff, too), would be highly impractical on a missile. To observe and respond to radar hits, the entire surface of the missile would be covered in receptors/transmitters (tiny, delicate antennae). These would be torn apart by the waves, and damaged by the saline. Plus, the missile would have to carry a pretty heavy-duty computer, to crunch the angles of radar reflections. Not only must it fire back to the initial radar, but to all radars that could angle in on the missile in triangulation style. All which must be done in real time.

Second, the maneuvering... The missile that was linked was not surface skimming until it got close, at which point it dropped low. The advantage of that makes it like a Sunburn, in that Phalanx CIWS cannot depress down to strike it. Should DM be using Goalkeeper or Millenium Guns, that advantage would be gone. Also, RAMS was designed precisely to gun down these kinds of missiles, and is incredibly effective. (And I KNOW he has RAMS).

Which brings us to the “lethal” impacts of the missiles. Missiles fair badly against heavy ships. It would take about four Exocet hits to sink a carrier on average, and more for battleships with decent torpedo belts.

And about IR. The faster you are going, the more heat you will be making. You will also be going straighter, and will be a big glowing spot on scanners. Speed vs Stealth cannot be overcome with active stealth, for maneuver and waves still come into grand play, and the presence of RAMS greatly decreases the advantage of sea-skimming.

That’s my two cents worth.

There ya go. Thanks Kauk...

Assuming most of them miss their mark, there would still be enough there to cause heavy damage to most of the fleet.

The RAM has not been tested on supersonic sea-skimmers (according to globalsecurity.org). It's also quite short ranged, and based on the pre-emptive nature of the attack, reaction time would be limited.

Now regarding the lethality - My missiles have a 500kg warhead compared to the Exocet's 165kg. They are also moving around 3x faster, and have much more mass, so heavy damage is almost assured.

Now, can you please respond on the IC thread?

Ok, then there you go. Also, some points I forgot to mention.... not only would CIWS have a chance at stopping them, but so would RAM. Since it shoots missiles in a CIWS pattern, this would greatly affect the sucess of your missiles.

If you do try to ignore me again, then why dont you look into the fact that iceshelves surround the shore of RB. So there, we (the Antarctic nations) already have a right to ignore you.

Uhh... yeah. IIRC, I was the one that pointed that one out.
Before the "Ignore" game gets going too far, consider what aspect your ships are going to be at when the missiles arrive, given those big damn waves.
If they're "Top On" to the path of the missile, then your CIWS isn't going to be worth a whole hell of a lot for that ship, and superstructures tend to be on the "Light and thinly armoured" side of things.
Even with everything (and I mean "EVERYTHING") going your way based on the tech, there's still two things to consider-you're accepting the idea of heavy waves-waves that can lift a boat up fifteen or twenty degrees in angle lengthwise, and a lot more sideways-or did I read your response wrong?
The second thing, is that CIWS has limited ammunition, and it takes time to change the cannisters between uses. The units that successfully repel the missiles will have to switch cans-and that takes several minutes, while he's only fired one volley so far-if he fires another during that changeover, at the same targets (allowing for range, altitude, and declination), then you'll take MORE damage on the second attempt, than you would have on the first.
Not knowing how many attempts he can make, I can't say he will try it again-but... I know what I would do against an opponent with a system like that.
I'd hit you in waves, from different launchers, at staggered times, from different positions and angles. Not only would it put forward the idea that there are more of me than there really are, but it would also force your systems to make choices about which threat to engage.

(We really need weather broadcasts in the future - they may affect battle)

The Phalanx has a firing rate of 4,500 rds/minute and a supply of 1,550. That would last around 20 seconds.

Furthermore, if the waves really are that size, then recognising missiles from ground clutter is going to be problem.

Okay, we need someone who isn't on either side to come in and handle the weather for us all- weather affects flying forces as well as naval, and can impair or enhance ground units based on what they're used to.

Nominations?

I just entered the war and want to know how many ships are off the coast of Rocky Bambino? Oh and it would be nice to have a general idea where the cities are located.

My entire infantry, along with all of my pilots and soldiers manning the vehicles have oxygen masks due to the weapons some of the bombers are carrying. The Rifle used is the AK109 among the regulars, with a few anti-tank weapons distributed among them. Some of the elite use OICWs and F2000s along with various cyanide and fragmentation grenades.

Ok, there are thousands of ships from phyrrics landing fleet and nk around RB and there are also those of SLOA and SAND nations, although we havnt heard from SAND. I have 3 688 SSN's around the place and a 10 carrier task force soon to enter the area.

Also i am trying to get a nice big naval battle going, but soon im going to just have to bring my ships in and land my armour because otherwise I will be missing out on the groundwar.

DM you got any casualty reports/what your ships are doing after my harpoon attack??

I just entered the war and want to know how many ships are off the coast of Rocky Bambino? Oh and it would be nice to have a general idea where the cities are located.

My entire infantry, along with all of my pilots and soldiers manning the vehicles have oxygen masks due to the weapons some of the bombers are carrying. The Rifle used is the AK109 among the regulars, with a few anti-tank weapons distributed among them. Some of the elite use OICWs and F2000s along with various cyanide and fragmentation grenades.

Ummm... okay.
I'd suggest "Losing" the Cyanide unless you're with the Austians/SLOA forces-my guys will have a Serious problem with Chems right now considering what happened to their homeland. Poison Gas is Much unpopular with our side's allies as well.

Dancing Moose, Wazican, and Blue Eagle don't seem to have a problem with it though-they're sending forces to defend the practice of poisoning civilian populations and genocidal warfare.

Well Yurka can't very well take them back to the homeland now can we? We just won't use them :)

Ok now can I have a rough idea on how many ships are near Rocky Bambino's coast?

Quite a lot, and there is soon to be a lot more from me.

Ok, Taiwan, now that we have proved that your jamming system isnt going to work, then that would also mean that not only would IR systems work, but so would the standard radar missile locking system. So (as Nuevo Kowloon stated) not only would RAM, Phalanx, and Millenium gun CIWS systems be against your missiles, but so would the power of Antarctic waves.

Obviously giving you the benefit of the doubt that some missiles unbelievably made it through these walls of lead, missiles, and, most notably, water, then I will have to tell you that the chances of seriously harming a 'capital' ship are relatively low. I will RP some smaller ships being lost, but all of them (including the Amundsen Class destroyers, my own design) are all equiped with the most modern CIWS systems. The battleships, the Indomitable Class, are also my own design and there armor is topping out at 21 inches. The armor has been ingeniously configured to create a somewhat 'Choblam' effect. Layers of Steel, depleted uranium, titanium, and kevlar (all this together with traces of diamond) would pretty much 'delay' any major damage to the superstructure itself until actual gunfire is provided.

Ok, so here we are. Nuevo Kowloon, I have regrettably missed your point on the waves, I suppose some ships would be lost to them or something, please clarify that up. My ships are pretty far off the coast now (500 miles), so they should be clear of the ice shelves. Im just wondering how Phyrric is carrying out such successful landings on top of ice. Some one please clarify this.

I WILL start ignoring if it is necessary, things such as this rocket , are starting to annoy me. I wish nations as big as you guys would please take into consideration that my fight in this war is hopelessly outnumbered, and you know it. Yet, be this as it may, you are stil taking advantage of it. I dont know why, but if we could keep this a relatively good naval battle then I would be most appreciated.

Independant Hitmen, you have been the most 'honest' (as I am putting it) here so far, and im just on my way to respond to your attacks, and to your shared wishes for a good naval battle. Taiwan, im really close to ignoring that missile. I will post losses from it, but, as far as I can tell, it doesnt need to be used that much more often. If you cant afford to fight a nation like me (giving the amount of ships I have in the area) without using that stuff, well, is just sad.

Come on, I want to at least have a good naval battle since that is what im best at, and hope that my hopeless attempts at a war at least get acknoloweged and respected, lol.

Well Yurka can't very well take them back to the homeland now can we? We just won't use them :)

Ok now can I have a rough idea on how many ships are near Rocky Bambino's coast?

Well... let's see.


I think we need to make a count. Someone said "Thousands of ships", I'm not real clear on that- I had over 200, but 150 of those were non-combatant vessels, and I lost maybe twenty frigates escorting the Transports up to Bariloche (not sunk, just not available) after they dropped off the gear. (It's nice when they're paying attention to the big threats at the door, saves a lot of money)
I've got about 30 Combatants of various sizes, plus two Hospital ships and six "Landing Dock" ships (Anchorage class), Three Oiler/Tenders, Two UnRep ships (that weren't unloaded when the Beachead/port was set up),
Fifteen "Submarine" Class Submarines (we're not very creative in our naming conventions...) lurking around the Ice itself (Ice floats, it's a good place to sit and listen to other people's long-wave transmissions, Sonar echoes, and engine noise.) Plus the three Tenders for them.
On the ground at RB Bay, I've got around 40,000 people (anyone not on duty on the ships is on duty at our temp. base, ground crews and aircrew especially), with 12,000 marines (3,000 other marines are either scouting for the whole task-force in the mountains, or working directly for other Allied Commands, with one company of "Night Recon" heading south deep into Aust to contact the ARP faction to coordinate them with the rest of the Allied forces. Alpha Company 3rd of the 2nd has 148 men.)
So... Your ships can tie up, we've got oil for 'em, actual Jetties to offload at, an Airfield that was prefab and delivered by cargo ship (the ship's gone now) capable of handling your bombers, the beginnings of actual barracks (It's good to have a regiment of Engineers in your Marine divisions...), SAM sites (though anything you bring with you will be appreciated deeply), the Missile systems and guns of the ships already in the inlet, and some of the area even has running water. (NK's BUILD when they go somewhere, it's a habit.).

Be careful dealing with the locals down here, RB has been some time in the throes of anarchy, and issue lots of condoms. (11 cases of Syphilis so far, those men have been treated, and are doing extra duty in the latrines.)(HEY, DANCING MOOSE!! INTEL ASSETS!!! I've just given you a freebie-there's bound to be gang members or dealers or pimps who're keen to get rid of this foreign infestation that's interrupted their 'business'...well, maybe not the pimps. They're picking up real money, and their chattels are getting real medical care...)

The Phyrrician Generals are in charge down here, though-Commodore Trung handed over overall command of the land base when they landed with their forces-there's some MP Colonel that's taken over as Base commander. (Phyrric, I need a name for the guy!) OTOH, it gives a central meeting point to coordinate operations so's units don't end up stepping on each other or working at cross-purposes.

Ok, Taiwan, now that we have proved that your jamming system isnt going to work, then that would also mean that not only would IR systems work, but so would the standard radar missile locking system. So (as Nuevo Kowloon stated) not only would RAM, Phalanx, and Millenium gun CIWS systems be against your missiles, but so would the power of Antarctic waves.

Obviously giving you the benefit of the doubt that some missiles unbelievably made it through these walls of lead, missiles, and, most notably, water, then I will have to tell you that the chances of seriously harming a 'capital' ship are relatively low. I will RP some smaller ships being lost, but all of them (including the Amundsen Class destroyers, my own design) are all equiped with the most modern CIWS systems. The battleships, the Indomitable Class, are also my own design and there armor is topping out at 21 inches. The armor has been ingeniously configured to create a somewhat 'Choblam' effect. Layers of Steel, depleted uranium, titanium, and kevlar (all this together with traces of diamond) would pretty much 'delay' any major damage to the superstructure itself until actual gunfire is provided.

Ok, so here we are. Nuevo Kowloon, I have regrettably missed your point on the waves, I suppose some ships would be lost to them or something, please clarify that up. My ships are pretty far off the coast now (500 miles), so they should be clear of the ice shelves. Im just wondering how Phyrric is carrying out such successful landings on top of ice. Some one please clarify this.

I WILL start ignoring if it is necessary, things such as this rocket , are starting to annoy me. I wish nations as big as you guys would please take into consideration that my fight in this war is hopelessly outnumbered, and you know it. Yet, be this as it may, you are stil taking advantage of it. I dont know why, but if we could keep this a relatively good naval battle then I would be most appreciated.

Independant Hitmen, you have been the most 'honest' (as I am putting it) here so far, and im just on my way to respond to your attacks, and to your shared wishes for a good naval battle. Taiwan, im really close to ignoring that missile. I will post losses from it, but, as far as I can tell, it doesnt need to be used that much more often. If you cant afford to fight a nation like me (giving the amount of ships I have in the area) without using that stuff, well, is just sad.

Come on, I want to at least have a good naval battle since that is what im best at, and hope that my hopeless attempts at a war at least get acknoloweged and respected, lol.

Okay... Waves vs. Breakers.

Waves are literally all over the world, the water circulates in the ocean top-to-bottom-it does it in a glass of water too but it's too small an effect to see.
Breakers are what you see at the beach.

Waves in open ocean resemble moving "Hills", that lift, and lower a floating object (like a ship).

Okay, that's the first part.

Now... the farther a wave can travel uninterrrupted, the bigger it gets. Inertia is part of it, so is friction-water sliding against water makes water move. (Water is non-compressible, that is, it doesn't squeeze into smaller shapes-it just moves out of the way if it can. If it can't, it transfers the energy...)
The Antarctic Ocean is kind of like (in fact, almost exactly like) a giant donut of water. Waves can travel a LONG time, building up significant size, and significant relative speed.
Measurement of a wave is from Peak to trough. That is, from the highest point, to the lowest. Mean sea level is averaged between the two.

What it means for ships fighting in the Antarctic Ocean, is that they're riding "Hills" of water that rise up to 50 feet above mean-sea-level, and drop 50 feet below it- for hundered foot waves with a slope between 120 and 30 degrees. (I'm not going to do the trig on this one, but it's steep.)
For ships like Destroyers, frigates, and cutters, this means an "Airsickness" ride-makes you really respect the guys who travelled around the Cape between the Pacific and the Atlantic in the 1800s.
For Battleships, it's still a rough ride, but it's one you have to keep the damn hatches closed on-or you'll flood like the Derbyshire did in the Sea of Japan if you're not careful.
For Carriers, it means a pretty rough ride too- and dangerous for the pilots.
Carrier ops would be better served a bit Farther north-like 1000 miles off the coast, unless you've got some really, really, nuts-bold aviators who have very, very, very, vERY good ground crews.
The other option is farther south-once you get over the the continental shelf of Antarctica, the ride smooths out a bit, and if you can get into a channel, dip, or other place with land (or a reef) between you and the basic direction of the Antarctic flow, the water smooths out a Lot.
The RB end of Antarctica isn't like the DM end-Dancing Moose has fairly quiet water in several areas (look at the map), but those are his National Waters for the most part. (hmm, based on that, we know where Aust parked his "fleet" of super-Fortress ships.)
The RB end of Antarctica is almost all open to flow, that means it's got the most active coastline, least amount of "Sheltering" terrain, and toughest entrance to make with a fleet safely.
(which explains why nobody was all that concerned when Rocky Bambino stopped talking-the area's tough to run ships in, and most of the coastline is ice shelves.)

Okay, that, I hope, answers some of your questions.

Now...

How can Phyrric land on ice...
Steaming an airfield into ice is something that's been done for decades, the Ice shelf off Antarctica's coast is like the Glaciers off greenland-it's incredibly thick stuff, and easy to work into a flat shape long enough to land a significantly sized bird on, like the C-141's and C-5's they sometimes land at McMurdo in the real world, or the C-130's they base there.
It's comparatively easy to set up a fairly large airfield very quickly on the Ice-shelf, using torches and steam.

But... he didn't land on the ice. Your map shows "Land" inland, with one little tiny pinprick of blue touching the nation itself-it's a little more work and trouble to set one up on land, but it's doable in the timeframe of preparation before the war kicked off for real.

Ergo, it's quite probable, not merely possible.

The comment about wave height creating ground clutter for the CIWS is dead-on-water doesn't conduct Radio Waves very well, it reflects them quite efficiently, if the ship's in a trough, rises up, and meets a missile, there isn't time to get and hold a lock-on with any reliability, and if you're using that Sattelite network to aim your systems, then you've got Sattelite Lag, and a homing beacon on your ships so the IFF can tell who's an ally and who isn't. His missiles might not hit you, but someone using a HARM tuned to your transponder freqs could, and they wouldn't have to work that hard to do it.

If you're feeding your CIWS from the Magazines internal to the ships, that's not necessarily a benefit-if something goes wrong on the feed mechanism, you have a chain-fire running through multiple decks into the interior, where the really reactive stuff is-BOOM. Multibillion dollar ship with a broken keel, sinking fast into 32 degree water. (survivors freeze to death in seconds unless they leave the ship by boat, or are wearing diver's drysuits-which are regrettably flammable IRL, and have a tendency to melt if they don't burn. OUCH.)

If you're using what the USN in the real-world uses, (cannister ammo) it takes between 2 and 5 minutes to reload the CIWS between bursts. RAM systems take longer, and the Millenium Gun uses a bigger can that holds fewer shots (Bulk again-25mm flechette rounds are bulkier than .50 caliber or 20mm mg rounds), and requires more muscle-power to change.

If you're mounting your Ship magazines externally, then a bad storm can strip you of spare ammo, a lightning strike can sink you, and a lucky hit can do the same-your own shells breaching your hull.

(I just spent some time with a recently-out Gunner's Mate, and asked him about the CIWS issue, as well as the seas South of 60)

Thanks for that science lesson, I guess I see your point... but when it comes to it, these things you talk of are things that have a very slight chance of occuring. My ships rolling on the waves is, in the most part, an advantage for me. If his missiles are maneuverable, then they would have to constantly dodge waves rolling up and down, thus reducing their speed.

I dont see how the reloading time for a CIWS Phalanx system is such a big problem. After all, I have over 10 or 15 systems on my battleships and carriers. I would probably say that they are internally loaded, automatically, by a linked belt. You are wrong, Taiwan, Vulcan Phalanx guns can fire 6,000 a min, or 100 a second. This would blow by incredibly fast, but like I said, the amount of ammo is indefinate due to linked belts. If all of the systems on a my ship fired at once at your missiles, that would probably give the maximum effect because you didnt send your missiles in waves.

Also, I have a question. Independant Hitman, I hate to spoil the moment, but, those Harpoons would appear on my ships radar at, what, 200 miles away? That would give my Pegasus class hydrofoil PT boats plenty of time to 'jet' away, right?

I will be seeking further verification on the manuverability bit.

As for the waves, I suppose you could say none of them arrive (first war for my men in these conditions).

Ummm... Shinoxia?

Are you planning to truck your navy out of Completegenocide by road, or what?

It has no Sea Access.

Check the map:
http://snowylands.tripod.com

Im talking to Shinoxia on the phone, lol, and he says he cant get on right now, but he says he will just sail it from Shinoxia itself.

Im talking to Shinoxia on the phone, lol, and he says he cant get on right now, but he says he will just sail it from Shinoxia itself. Ah! Better! (':D') I should be back on sometime later tonight.
While you're at it, could you get ahold of Wazican, and find out where his navy is coming from? His nation's as landlocked as Aust or Completegenocide is.

Phyrric's dropping out, I can't blame him for it, I was on the edge myself not very much too long ago over the Map thing, and a few other pieces I let slide. As it goes, this may end up being a trend-too many bad feelings are accumulating, and too many improbable happenstances mucking things up.
If Phyrric's the only one on my side dropping out, I'll stick it out-but if there's more... well... if I let this stand as "In Universe", I gots 15,000 and change for soldiers and not a whole lot of civilians, my nation's on 'Vacation Mode' at a bit over 400,000,000, and fighting through server problems to keep up with four threads in a story that seems to be pleasing nobody including me isn't much fun.

In fact, it's wearing me out as a person, and damaging my RL relationships with actual people to no profit.

I'm thinking about dropping too.

Having said that, I will now express my reasons:

1. I know the servers are bad, and I know it takes a lot of time to do things, but the least the defender could do-the very least, is to know something about the map he's using, the conditions he's operating in, and have a coherent plan.

2. Attacks will do damage. In the entirety of this RP, I haven't once under-reported losses, or claimed 'Invulnerability'-even when the attack is one that Physics tells us wouldn't work in the real world. (ICBM warheads re-enter the atmosphere at speeds that make deploying chemical weapons impossible-they hit air that's hot enough to melt steel, moving fast enough to dismantle the little molecules of chemical weapon before it can deploy. the alternative method-ground release-on-impact, makes dangerous small puddles that can be cleaned up with a bucket.)

3. Improbable numbers and impenetrable defenses. This is what sent Phyrric away, and has had me thinking it. It's probably the number one reason I got so testy about the Map-Wank attempt-which is still bothering me, just so you know.

4. Refusing to acknowledge attacks and announcing every other post you're going to ignore. That's reason enough to ignore you in the first place.

5. "Do you want that Super-Sized?" it goes with the Impenetrable defenses and the amazingly low losses.

6. Having to explain shit away whole threads after it happens, having to 'generate' weaknesses because you're trying to avoid problems one through five. I don't like handing out freebies to the enemy.

7. Having to play intermediary and Referee to keep people from quitting in disgust, when that's all I want to do.

8. "Omniscient systems". SatRec is good, it isn't god. It would be nice if, before you deploy a new thing, you can take a few lines and explain how it works.

9. "Bottomless Ammo". Speaks for itself, but goes along with eternal fuel supplies and billions of eager people lining up to do something for a ruler they don't even particularly care about. Aust, your culture is too gullible to be human. Less than .05% and you don't have a revolution brewing, you've got an easily-crushed bunch of tax protestors ala Waco.
It would be nice if someone besides me had supply problems or manpower issues in a war this big, or had to actually take the time to mobilize their forces beyond announcement.

10. Conditions that the defenders should know, but don't are a big issue-like that a whole stretch of your region was no longer a country would've been nice, having some clue of a plan before you deployed would've been nice too.

11. Has anyone bothered to notice USIH's attack in character??? No.
Harpoons aren't 200 mile missiles, they're 'Short ranged', that means that no, you don't have manuevering time-for him to select them, he's within 30 miles of you, and probably already moving.

I'm sorry, I stuck this one out to well beyond the point of the moronically ridiculous (Aust doesn't have the land area to support 200,000 ICBMs and still feed itself. Neither do any of the rest of you.) I'm going to have to bow out, and RetCon the attack on NK didn't happen. I'm done.

Ok, with basically all of my allies for this gone, i am considering going too. Ill check the IC thread and make a decision sometime today.

Dm your rite the harpoon has a range of 150+ miles but that doesnt mean it cant hit stuff close to hits launch point! One harpoon into a destroyer will screw it, so pt boats which you posted were coming at top speed makin them show up on sonar like seein a blind man in an empty parkin lot at noon. I didnt realise they were jet boats, mistoke your post for them bein normal pt boats which dont have radar, and if your aegis ships did pick them up and radiod a warning to the pt boats they wouldnt have enough time to turn 180 and run before they got hit!

Okay... so you're a futuretech nation.
what's the tech level of your ground forces, then? I'm not looking for exact numbers, but if it's too advanced, you're going to need to knock back a few decades or you won't be getting very far, because most of our side simply won't acknowledge the posts, and that's a drag when it happens.


As for the colonies/puppets: I propose a compromise.
You only field what you alone could have managed without the input from the Colonies-call it having other commitments in other theaters or something, but as long as you stay "Under" what your size and budget alone (without the Autonomous Republics) could provide, you can have personnel from those places intermixed, after all, many nations have minority populations in their armed forces, and keep posts inside the game to Your Nation's "Handle".

If this compromise sounds fair to you, I think I might be able to get Taiwan and the rest to buy off on it on my side. (Preventing said logistical nightmare, and preventing accusations from flying, before they start.)


Orbital Platforms. How many, what type, keep exact positions to your self until you use 'em, but if they're ridiculously overpowered, there will be problems and they won't be as effective as theory says they should be.

I used a Thor's Hammer in the earlier thread, compared to the more conventional stuff thrown by Aust, it was proportionally ineffective-though it did lots and lots of very ugly damage when he posted losses, they were no where near the level he did-part of that is because there were fewer of the crowbars, none of them left lingering radiation or poisons, and for the most part they weren't targeted on population centres- militarily, it was near completely useless and did little proportional damage to his forces. Still, it made a nice mess of things, esp. in the upper atmosphere, and on geological "Soft points"- Thor is actually 1960's technology, the U.S. Army ran tests in '63 but abandoned it because, as I found out, it's tactically next to useless against anything that isn't stationary-though something that has the sectional density and energy to penetrate down and pulverize bedrock is kinda neat. Based on my experience in-game so far, Orbital platforms are a-ok with me, but don't expect them to be terribly effective as combatant units-though additional commo and spysat capability is an excellent force-multiplier.

Okay, first thing's first. Most of the army on Earth is pretty basic. Only the Immortals have any really advanced hardware, and they weren't going to be used anyway. The sort of equipment they have are things like: triple barrelled rifle and pistol, kevlar vests under fire-retardant clothing, etc.
Going on America being able to field 1.4 million troops if it sent everything, with a population of 265 million, I could field up to about 11-14 million troops. So far, I have sent in 21 divisions and 5 aircraft carrier fleets, totalling about 400,000 troops, including pilots and SBR operators.

My aircraft were recently switched over from modern-tech planes to future-tech; but they shouldn't really pose much of a problem, as the weaponry and armour used are pretty much modern-tech, such as carbon steel, high-explosive bombs, and 20 mm cannons.
I'm not using my hoverskids, which would give me a much greater advantage than the normal aircraft, which generally have to remain high, not skimming a few metres over the tops of the waves in the Antarctic Ocean.

For spacecraft, I have 100 Space Based Radar platforms and 100 Space Based Laser platforms in polar orbit, between 510 and 1100 km above the ground, an area most other spacecraft never go unless they must. The Van Allen Belts are very helpful in clearing out unwanted hostile spacecraft.
The SBR platforms are armed with missiles, but these are generally for defensive purposes only, and so the only function is to use the scanning capability from gamma rays through to microwaves. The SBL platforms may have their cool lasers, but, as you said, they're practically useless against ground targets. Only my Argo fighters could possibly attack the ground, but then they'd have to be well within the atmosphere to do much. They are armed with lasers as well, but none of the other usual spacecraft are.

As for the colonies; only the troops already stationed on Earth at the time of the beginning of this war will be included.

Phyrric is pulling out.

I have no choice but to follow phyrric, however the special forces that were in place with the arp will remain and hopefully get rid of the emperor that way.

Ok, obviously Nuevo Kowloon didnt pay attention at all to the Harpoon thing and is now trying to blame all of his problems on his 'enemy', which is in fact, the Antarctic nations.

IDH, you are quite right, my PT boats, which had just entered Harpoon range, would have picked them up as soon as they hit the surface, at, lets say, 130-140 miles away. Once on radar, they could have easily put out the hydrofoils and obtained a max of 60 knots. One mistake, I dont believe they were heading at 'full speed' to your sub.

If you guys want to quit, fine, we are satisified at a sucessful defense of our ally. One thing, however, IDH, Shinoxia tells me that he is allied with you... is this right? If so, you would have been fighting him soon, obviously.

Ok, obviously Nuevo Kowloon didnt pay attention at all to the Harpoon thing and is now trying to blame all of his problems on his 'enemy', which is in fact, the Antarctic nations.

IDH, you are quite right, my PT boats, which had just entered Harpoon range, would have picked them up as soon as they hit the surface, at, lets say, 130-140 miles away. Once on radar, they could have easily put out the hydrofoils and obtained a max of 60 knots. One mistake, I dont believe they were heading at 'full speed' to your sub.

If you guys want to quit, fine, we are satisified at a sucessful defense of our ally. One thing, however, IDH, Shinoxia tells me that he is allied with you... is this right? If so, you would have been fighting him soon, obviously.

Wrong guy, DM. I wasn't involved in that attack except as a reader-it was USIH that was firing the Harpoons, and the response to it...well... was probably posted after I got a few TG's from people wanting out because the "Antarctic Nations"...
well...
I think most of the relevant points were covered-not all the complaints were mine, I just got sick of fielding them, because most of my allies were here at my request, and apparently assumed I might have some ability to handle their grievances (which was the whole point of the OOC forum to begin with.)
You'll notice that in here, I took your side in some of those debates, DM, and tried to smooth ruffled feathers to keep it going, rather than badgering every other post and trying to be snide.
Hitmen was also trying to make it work-he stuck to the timetables, and was trying to give good value for time spent.

However, this wasn't reciprocated on your side, and that's where the main problem wound up-with very few exceptions (Moontian trying to de-rate to fit the tech level, Shinoxia realizing why he can't have a fleet in Completegenocide) your side in (OOC) communications were more interested in arguments promoting your ultimate invulnerability, than in RP'ing. After a while, childish rantings of "I'll IGNORE you!" become too much of a weight, along with trying to redraw things in a hurry to avoid having to take losses or think things through. Oh, and just for your future reference:

If you're using CIWS type systems, fed the way you're feeding them, then a hit to the emplacement (Unless it's got a seriously restricted arc) will probably detonate the ammo-which in turn, will chain-fire the ammo feed, and blow the living shit out of the ship it's mounted on from the inside. It also impairs the use of watertight compartmentalization, since the ammo-feeds have to cross decks and corridors unimpeded-this is whether you're using belted, or flexible-unbelted feeds. Your design would be a sailor-killer against gun-tube armed opposition, and a bad idea from a surface-combatant perspective. There's a bloody good reason the CIWS and Millenium Gun weapons are self-contained-if a hit destroys it, it only destroys the one, instead of the ship.

Kaukolostan said you love all things Naval-I'd expect you to spend some time asking Naval Personnel how some of your ideas might work, and what weaknesses they might have-it's a good basis for realistic as opposed to horseshit, RP'ing.

Now, as for "Successfully defending Antarctica and it's allies"-you didn't successfully defend shit.
I dropped out, and say it didn't happen, which means that the allies that came in with me, never came in, there was no "Defending" to do- the invasions never took place, the ships never came down, and so, you never had to 'defend' a god-damned thing.

It's like someone stating that we "Defeated" the martians in 1939-there was a radio broadcast, sure-but it didn't happen, because the Martians never landed.

You managed to successfully kill an RP. it's not the same thing.

Out of all my RPs, this RP has the highest ratio of OOC:IC posts.

Well, everyone goes so...mass ignored fest?

Out of all my RPs, this RP has the highest ratio of OOC:IC posts.

Well, everyone goes so...mass ignored fest?

Something like that. Call it the final results of illogic and the inability to get along. I'm worn out, Phyrric's pissed, Hitmen can't do it by himself, and even with an OOC thread to help smooth things over and coordinate events, a lot of debating was going on without anything resembling progress.

I feel bad, though-Aust seemed to want this to go right, and it just wasn't going to, the circumstances were just set up wrong for what he seemed to be trying to accomplish story-wise. I figure the whole thing's pretty well unsalvageable in its current state, so he's stuck with a Dictator that was supposed to be a plot-device, and Allies that'll make sure said dictator rules until he finally gives up and kills the guy himself, because it's just unpalatable to deal with that many Munchkins at a single sitting... and bringing in your own munchkins to deal with 'em doesn't work, because without a "Straight Man" they're just raining ordnance back-and-forth with no injuries, getting frustrated and pissed off until the situation's entirely unworkable.

(For the Pen-and-Paper RP impaired, a "Munchkin" is a Powergamer, commonly termed a Godmoder or Godmodder here at NS-his army's always equipped with the best gear, huge, never has breakdowns, supply problems, or doubts, and is always right. His navy can sail its way through hundereds of miles of dry land to dock in his land-locked cities, he doesn't need space for mining, or food production, or anything, because it magickally appears out of thin air, represented by a raw statistic so he doesn't have to allocate for where that stat comes from. His Nation is inevitably protected by invulnerable sattelites and his SDI always works.
In pen&Paper games, he never runs out of ammo, never has non-combat skills that aren't "Kewl", always has all of his equipment within arm's reach-even in places where it's thoroughly inappropriate... like wearing full-plate Armour with a +5 Sword of Reaving into the Baths... His followers/henchmen/npc's are inevitably loyal to his Player Character, even when said PC treats them like shit... you get the picture.)

Theres a little munchkinism with over 1,000 ships :roll:

Oh and Yurka launched a sneak attack backstab on all of you still in the harbor. :wink:

Theres a little munchkinism with over 1,000 ships :roll:

Oh and Yurka launched a sneak attack backstab on all of you still in the harbor. :wink:

That's nice, nobody's home. If you go ahead and capture it, you'll find lots of neat stuff sitting totally undefended-like real barracks with showers, six Jettys that arrived in prefabricated sections and were installed, and an airport.
Basically everything you need (including some heavy military hardware) to establish a Colonial base or even a Port.
Anything that couldn't be broken down and moved immediately was left behind, also anything that would slow down the departure-these guys got the word and went straight home.

Since it would be truly unsportsman like to just retcon the whole thing, I opted for a more balanced approach- I applied RL physics and chemistry to Aust's missile-strike, and cut down on losses (the original numbers were based on visual estimates-it looked a lot worse than it was.)
With the Chief of Staff gone in the mass-strike, and the unexpected survival of the Chancellor, the Civilian government reasserted itself, and ordered the men home-in-a-hurry. With the SLOA fleets pursuing USIH's fleet, and Phyrric's fleet, it's a small matter to just pack what you can, and leave the rest behind. Your artillery strikes were very entertaining to my rear-guard, falling as they did far, far, behind.

Oh, and there weren't, as far as I know, 1000 ships in the area belonging to our side-that count included SLOA forces, in fact, the BULK of that count was the SLOA forces.

I use cyanide Gas because in amounts of 300+ per million its not only toxic but explosive. It causes sores and numbing as well even if you're not exposed enough, so it lowers the speed of any sort of assaults considerably. Nuevo Kowloon and anyone else who left by the time of the attack weren't affected. The bases Nuevo Kowloon created will be checked for explosives and then occupied while we send for reinforcements and solidate our posisition within the former Rocky Bambino. And with 1,000 Artilley protecting the harbor, it should hold off any massive naval assaults and give us time to get more troops.

Yeah i did realise that Shinoxia was allied to me, part of the reason for the pull out. Sorry about the sub rp, was goin ok i thort, say the skimmers got away? That way i played a very minimal role in this conflict, as Aust didnt post any losses for my bomber and cruise missile attacks i wasnt really here!

Aww, some ones getting angry over a game.... Im sorry if I 'ruined' it for you, Nuevo Kowloon. However, it is not my problem if someone completely neglects facts. Invading another region is something that really takes alot of time, patience, and huge forces. Its not going to be a walk in the park, and my best guess is that you deeply underestimated us.

About CIWS, if those guns did somehow manage to get directly hit by a missile, and giving the chance that the 30mm ammunition was hit, then there would be a rather large series of detonations. However, even though this might cause some fires, it would not be serious damage.

Its really sad that you big nations have to make a good RP turn into unrealistic crap, such as by using that missile, to make it seem easier to you. If you had done it right, then (in the long run) your size and governments would have easily overpowered ours (in terms of providing money for a war).

One last thing, it wasent me who started ignoring, and if you actually took the time to pay attention, it was Phyrric.

Independant Hitman, none of this is directed at you, just so you know. I hope we can share an alliegance such as you and Shinoxia do.

Aww, some ones getting angry over a game.... Im sorry if I 'ruined' it for you, Nuevo Kowloon. However, it is not my problem if someone completely neglects facts. Invading another region is something that really takes alot of time, patience, and huge forces. Its not going to be a walk in the park, and my best guess is that you deeply underestimated us.

Hmmm... nope. Though I may admit some of my mood the last few days has been affected by the task of doing my Income Tax.

I'll now address your statement about "Someone Completely Neglects Facts"- It was not I, or any on my side, that neglected to maintain their information and have an up-to-date map ready for play, along with an accurate listing of Nations in the region. That one was yours. I seem to also recall having provided you with facts you did not have access to in your debate with Taiwan. That's two times you were directly responsible for someone having a problem with the neglecting the facts.
Trying to Conquer a region, it's true, requires huge forces. I never said it didn't. What you continue to fail to realize, is that we weren't interested in conquering you. If we had been, you would not have seen the first sign of our forces until we had already staged far more allies, in greater numbers, closer to your continental landmass. It would have also been accompanied by the use of much, much, heavier assets, and I wouldn't have enforced timing limits on my side (i.e. I would've played it like you did, only with better preparations-fast and loose with the alleged 'facts'.)
Had this been a full-scale invasion, I would've still exploited the Rocky Bambino salient, but the forces holding it really would have included thousands of ships-along with dozens of divisions from several nations under a single commander and command structure. Your first warning would have been an ASAT attack on your sattelite network, coinciding with massed Strategic-Bombing of several capitals at once, each bombing attack carried out from a different Nation, with Wild-Weasel support and Fighter Escorts.
This would have come in a flurry of posts on page one, the force would have included an equal number of nations-but bigger. MUCH bigger.
At the same time, I, Personally would have fielded surface-recon assets with the mission of targeting your bridges to the front-lines, accompanied by Commando attacks on your Logistical centres and lines of communication. Why? Because, in a Regional-Invasion type RP, My nation's specialties are C3 and Covert Operations, I designed it that way. I would also have begun targeting your communications (Phone lines, Switches, Uplinks).
After page one, you would be given the option of either (a) surrender, or (and more likely) (b) posting losses, then organizing your forces.
I wouldn't even dream of going after a whole region or continent with what my side had, coming in little driblets, drips, and bits, in this RP.
Minimum Number of forces to bring to a party intent on wrecking a whole region is seven (yeah, SEVEN) Nations of 1.5 Billion plus.
Why? Defense has the advantage in this setting-as the defenders, you can undercount your losses, and without accurate, "Canon" maps, you can make the Topography as favourable as you want-and your side does this-only by taking the offensive off your homeland and into the waters was I able to bring up uncomfortable facts, like how far your mines would have to fall before they could anchor, or how heavy the seas are around the Antarctic.



About CIWS, if those guns did somehow manage to get directly hit by a missile, and giving the chance that the 30mm ammunition was hit, then there would be a rather large series of detonations. However, even though this might cause some fires, it would not be serious damage.


Bullshit. Do you have the faintest idea how destructive a chain-fire is with ammunition in a contained environment like an ammunition feed? Run those CIWS feeds through your ships, and you have claymores set to kill your own men inside,and when it reaches the ammunition storage area, that's one big, contained, bomb-in this case, not contained in a "Good Way"-it's contained enough to build serious pressures before something gives-and the most likely things to give, are the bilges, and the keel. Boom, Gone, sunk. Not serious damage? Horseshit, unless you have discovered a new Element for the Periodic Table that is harder than diamond and denser than Uranium.



Its really sad that you big nations have to make a good RP turn into unrealistic crap, such as by using that missile, to make it seem easier to you. If you had done it right, then (in the long run) your size and governments would have easily overpowered ours (in terms of providing money for a war).


You haven't checked my numbers, have you? Just because I can hold my own in non-combat RP with "The Big Boys" doesn't mean I am one, it just means I know how to write something more compelling than a giant fleet list and chest-beating self-congratulation.


One last thing, it wasent me who started ignoring, and if you actually took the time to pay attention, it was Phyrric.


Yes, but you didn't do much to slow it down, did you? Like fighting fires with gasoline and a fan, instead of water and foam, you pushed it into the realm of the absurd.


Independant Hitman, none of this is directed at you, just so you know. I hope we can share an alliegance such as you and Shinoxia do.

Want to know something funny, DM? Shinoxia's also a member of the LoD, which technically makes him my ally, along with Phyrric's, _Taiwan's, and Bariloche's. Of course, this tends to get forgotten, doesn't it?

An alliance at this time will not happen.

Aww, some ones getting angry over a game.... Im sorry if I 'ruined' it for you, Nuevo Kowloon. However, it is not my problem if someone completely neglects facts. Invading another region is something that really takes alot of time, patience, and huge forces. Its not going to be a walk in the park, and my best guess is that you deeply underestimated us.

Hmmm... nope. Though I may admit some of my mood the last few days has been affected by the task of doing my Income Tax.

I'll now address your statement about "Someone Completely Neglects Facts"- It was not I, or any on my side, that neglected to maintain their information and have an up-to-date map ready for play, along with an accurate listing of Nations in the region. That one was yours. I seem to also recall having provided you with facts you did not have access to in your debate with Taiwan. That's two times you were directly responsible for someone having a problem with the neglecting the facts.
Trying to Conquer a region, it's true, requires huge forces. I never said it didn't. What you continue to fail to realize, is that we weren't interested in conquering you. If we had been, you would not have seen the first sign of our forces until we had already staged far more allies, in greater numbers, closer to your continental landmass. It would have also been accompanied by the use of much, much, heavier assets, and I wouldn't have enforced timing limits on my side (i.e. I would've played it like you did, only with better preparations-fast and loose with the alleged 'facts'.)
Had this been a full-scale invasion, I would've still exploited the Rocky Bambino salient, but the forces holding it really would have included thousands of ships-along with dozens of divisions from several nations under a single commander and command structure. Your first warning would have been an ASAT attack on your sattelite network, coinciding with massed Strategic-Bombing of several capitals at once, each bombing attack carried out from a different Nation, with Wild-Weasel support and Fighter Escorts.
This would have come in a flurry of posts on page one, the force would have included an equal number of nations-but bigger. MUCH bigger.
At the same time, I, Personally would have fielded surface-recon assets with the mission of targeting your bridges to the front-lines, accompanied by Commando attacks on your Logistical centres and lines of communication. Why? Because, in a Regional-Invasion type RP, My nation's specialties are C3 and Covert Operations, I designed it that way. I would also have begun targeting your communications (Phone lines, Switches, Uplinks).
After page one, you would be given the option of either (a) surrender, or (and more likely) (b) posting losses, then organizing your forces.
I wouldn't even dream of going after a whole region or continent with what my side had, coming in little driblets, drips, and bits, in this RP.
Minimum Number of forces to bring to a party intent on wrecking a whole region is seven (yeah, SEVEN) Nations of 1.5 Billion plus.
Why? Defense has the advantage in this setting-as the defenders, you can undercount your losses, and without accurate, "Canon" maps, you can make the Topography as favourable as you want-and your side does this-only by taking the offensive off your homeland and into the waters was I able to bring up uncomfortable facts, like how far your mines would have to fall before they could anchor, or how heavy the seas are around the Antarctic.



About CIWS, if those guns did somehow manage to get directly hit by a missile, and giving the chance that the 30mm ammunition was hit, then there would be a rather large series of detonations. However, even though this might cause some fires, it would not be serious damage.


Bullshit. Do you have the faintest idea how destructive a chain-fire is with ammunition in a contained environment like an ammunition feed? Run those CIWS feeds through your ships, and you have claymores set to kill your own men inside,and when it reaches the ammunition storage area, that's one big, contained, bomb-in this case, not contained in a "Good Way"-it's contained enough to build serious pressures before something gives-and the most likely things to give, are the bilges, and the keel. Boom, Gone, sunk. Not serious damage? Horseshit, unless you have discovered a new Element for the Periodic Table that is harder than diamond and denser than Uranium.



Its really sad that you big nations have to make a good RP turn into unrealistic crap, such as by using that missile, to make it seem easier to you. If you had done it right, then (in the long run) your size and governments would have easily overpowered ours (in terms of providing money for a war).


You haven't checked my numbers, have you? Just because I can hold my own in non-combat RP with "The Big Boys" doesn't mean I am one, it just means I know how to write something more compelling than a giant fleet list and chest-beating self-congratulation.


One last thing, it wasent me who started ignoring, and if you actually took the time to pay attention, it was Phyrric.


Yes, but you didn't do much to slow it down, did you? Like fighting fires with gasoline and a fan, instead of water and foam, you pushed it into the realm of the absurd.


Independant Hitman, none of this is directed at you, just so you know. I hope we can share an alliegance such as you and Shinoxia do.

Want to know something funny, DM? Shinoxia's also a member of the LoD, which technically makes him my ally, along with Phyrric's, _Taiwan's, and Bariloche's. Of course, this tends to get forgotten, doesn't it?

What's LoD?

I know I'm allied with Independent Hitmen, but I don't recall joining anything else.

Aww, some ones getting angry over a game.... Im sorry if I 'ruined' it for you, Nuevo Kowloon. However, it is not my problem if someone completely neglects facts. Invading another region is something that really takes alot of time, patience, and huge forces. Its not going to be a walk in the park, and my best guess is that you deeply underestimated us.

Hmmm... nope. Though I may admit some of my mood the last few days has been affected by the task of doing my Income Tax.

I'll now address your statement about "Someone Completely Neglects Facts"- It was not I, or any on my side, that neglected to maintain their information and have an up-to-date map ready for play, along with an accurate listing of Nations in the region. That one was yours. I seem to also recall having provided you with facts you did not have access to in your debate with Taiwan. That's two times you were directly responsible for someone having a problem with the neglecting the facts.
Trying to Conquer a region, it's true, requires huge forces. I never said it didn't. What you continue to fail to realize, is that we weren't interested in conquering you. If we had been, you would not have seen the first sign of our forces until we had already staged far more allies, in greater numbers, closer to your continental landmass. It would have also been accompanied by the use of much, much, heavier assets, and I wouldn't have enforced timing limits on my side (i.e. I would've played it like you did, only with better preparations-fast and loose with the alleged 'facts'.)
Had this been a full-scale invasion, I would've still exploited the Rocky Bambino salient, but the forces holding it really would have included thousands of ships-along with dozens of divisions from several nations under a single commander and command structure. Your first warning would have been an ASAT attack on your sattelite network, coinciding with massed Strategic-Bombing of several capitals at once, each bombing attack carried out from a different Nation, with Wild-Weasel support and Fighter Escorts.
This would have come in a flurry of posts on page one, the force would have included an equal number of nations-but bigger. MUCH bigger.
At the same time, I, Personally would have fielded surface-recon assets with the mission of targeting your bridges to the front-lines, accompanied by Commando attacks on your Logistical centres and lines of communication. Why? Because, in a Regional-Invasion type RP, My nation's specialties are C3 and Covert Operations, I designed it that way. I would also have begun targeting your communications (Phone lines, Switches, Uplinks).
After page one, you would be given the option of either (a) surrender, or (and more likely) (b) posting losses, then organizing your forces.
I wouldn't even dream of going after a whole region or continent with what my side had, coming in little driblets, drips, and bits, in this RP.
Minimum Number of forces to bring to a party intent on wrecking a whole region is seven (yeah, SEVEN) Nations of 1.5 Billion plus.
Why? Defense has the advantage in this setting-as the defenders, you can undercount your losses, and without accurate, "Canon" maps, you can make the Topography as favourable as you want-and your side does this-only by taking the offensive off your homeland and into the waters was I able to bring up uncomfortable facts, like how far your mines would have to fall before they could anchor, or how heavy the seas are around the Antarctic.



About CIWS, if those guns did somehow manage to get directly hit by a missile, and giving the chance that the 30mm ammunition was hit, then there would be a rather large series of detonations. However, even though this might cause some fires, it would not be serious damage.


Bullshit. Do you have the faintest idea how destructive a chain-fire is with ammunition in a contained environment like an ammunition feed? Run those CIWS feeds through your ships, and you have claymores set to kill your own men inside,and when it reaches the ammunition storage area, that's one big, contained, bomb-in this case, not contained in a "Good Way"-it's contained enough to build serious pressures before something gives-and the most likely things to give, are the bilges, and the keel. Boom, Gone, sunk. Not serious damage? Horseshit, unless you have discovered a new Element for the Periodic Table that is harder than diamond and denser than Uranium.



Its really sad that you big nations have to make a good RP turn into unrealistic crap, such as by using that missile, to make it seem easier to you. If you had done it right, then (in the long run) your size and governments would have easily overpowered ours (in terms of providing money for a war).


You haven't checked my numbers, have you? Just because I can hold my own in non-combat RP with "The Big Boys" doesn't mean I am one, it just means I know how to write something more compelling than a giant fleet list and chest-beating self-congratulation.


One last thing, it wasent me who started ignoring, and if you actually took the time to pay attention, it was Phyrric.


Yes, but you didn't do much to slow it down, did you? Like fighting fires with gasoline and a fan, instead of water and foam, you pushed it into the realm of the absurd.


Independant Hitman, none of this is directed at you, just so you know. I hope we can share an alliegance such as you and Shinoxia do.

Want to know something funny, DM? Shinoxia's also a member of the LoD, which technically makes him my ally, along with Phyrric's, _Taiwan's, and Bariloche's. Of course, this tends to get forgotten, doesn't it?

What's LoD?

I know I'm allied with Independent Hitmen, but I don't recall joining anything else.

"Legion of Defense"-you've posted in the member's areas of their forums, ergo, you must be a member. (If not, I apologize and wonder how you got in...)