NationStates Jolt Archive

Raysia is looking to replace the current RF-11, which has been around for waaay too long. We're shooting for a 2015-2020 Tech level here.

Put down your suggestions on what you would like to see on the new RF-X8 (Arr-Eff Ecksty-Eight)

Any suggestions on what the airframe should look like? Maybe a modified version of an existing plane? something completely new?

http://www.bateshome.com/jordan/rsig1.jpg (http://www.bateshome.com/jordan/rmtdex.htm)

something completly new




and hopefully something i can use

something completly new




and hopefully something i can uselol

Any suggestions for features? I want to have minimally the same abilities as the RF-11

make a raysian version of the F109D!

I think Raysia wants to be original, not a copy-cat.

LOL

Anyone want to name specific systems?

No scramjets :P

he couldnt beat new empire with his own stuff....

how about a HyperSoar concept?

he couldnt beat new empire with his own stuff....Umm, yeah, I challenged his brand new stuff with something I created 6 months ago :Phow about a HyperSoar concept?Dude, I said a fighter.

how about a HyperSoar concept?
:roll: what is this topic called? next generation FIGHTER! :P

scramjets really aren't for fighters.

No major new technology, just improvements in avionics, propulsion, and versatility?

how about a HyperSoar concept?
:roll: what is this topic called? next generation FIGHTER! :P

Sorry....my bad :oops:

:roll: it happens :wink:

Full stealth, supercruise fighter with mind/machine interface cockpit? Haven't seen mind/machine interface aircraft in modern/near-future aerospace developers as of yet, you can probably try.

Full stealth, supercruise fighter with mind/machine interface cockpit? Haven't seen mind/machine interface aircraft in modern/near-future aerospace developers as of yet, you can probably try.ummm no.

manouveribility or speed?

OOC: Now now, you upgraded the RF-11D late December/Early January, hardly can say that you challenged his stuff with 6 month old "stuff" seeing as it was upgraded..

you should research a self contanied module for the cockpit. If you could do this then there would be no G force in the cockpit or on the pilot and you could make them ships go really fast. Also give it the ability to fly underwater. That would be cool an aircraft that could takje off on water or fly underwater and in the air.

RelicArms has had the next gen fighter covered really well. In fact I'm disappointed at how unknown our plane is, its been out since only a few weeks after Raysia first posted his RF-11. It still gets upgrades now and then though(we're finding ways to stop anti-air lasers).

Valefor 29a Air Superiority Fighter (http://www.freewebs.com/bluebomber/storefrontaircraft.htm)

Buy my stuff damit!

http://www.flightsimnetwork.com/shigeru/images/st-atf01-wb.jpg :?:

The Dominion suggests a glass cockpit, with provisions for a helmet-mounted sight and display system - Possibly using low-powered lasers to project three-dimensional displays directly onto the pilot's retinas. As well, we offer our Hailstorm smart cannons for use in the fighter in exchange for domestic production rights - Your nation would retain full export rights, of course.

We'd also suggest the use of liquid-filled G-suits instead of air-filled suits, and an angled ejector chair with zero-zero ejection capabilities like that on the F16, in an attempt to lessen the G-Forces acting upon the pilot. With the proliferation of stealth aircraft, you would be well-advised to focus on maneuverability rather than speed, since long-range radar-guided missiles aren't effective against stealth aircraft. That means close-in dogfighting would become more important in a battle between modern air forces.

Also, everyone and his brother is making fighters that can climb to some stupid altitude, and travel at such a high mach number that by the time you hear them take off, they've landed again. Why don't you make a fighter that performs well at low altitudes? Something with the ability to get right down on the deck and travel at high speeds while engaging targets with precision guided munitions? Instead of a pure Air Superiority Fighter, why don't you make something with some ground attack capability?

Incidentally, for defeating anti-air lasers, why not use something like chaff, except instead of aluminum strips, use a cloud of ultra-fine, highly-reflective pieces of metal to disperse the laser beam? You could have the dispensor keyed to a skin temperature sensor so that if the aircraft's skin temperature spikes unexpectedly, it sprays this reflecting mist to disperse the laser. You'll still take damage, but it won't be anywhere near what you'd take normally.

All good points, Kot.

The only note I want to make, is that I already have attackers.

In fact, I already created one fighter that I wanted to replace the RF-11 with, but it just doesn't match up.

I don't neccesarily mean a straight attack plane along the lines of the A10. More, I suggest a tactical fighter along the lines of the F15E. Something that can do either type of mission. With your permission, Raysia, I'd like to post the stats of the F-34A Perseus to give you an example of what I mean when I say "tactical fighter". If you'd rather I didn't, some real-world equivalents are the F15, as I mentioned, and the Su-27 Flanker.

I don't neccesarily mean a straight attack plane along the lines of the A10. More, I suggest a tactical fighter along the lines of the F15E. Something that can do either type of mission. With your permission, Raysia, I'd like to post the stats of the F-34A Perseus to give you an example of what I mean when I say "tactical fighter". If you'd rather I didn't, some real-world equivalents are the F15, as I mentioned, and the Su-27 Flanker.Go ahead... though I already have 2 or 3 planes that fit that dexcription, if not exceed it.

Most specifically, the RF-37 Q-Type: http://www.bateshome.com/jordan/rf37.htm

F-34A Perseus Tactical Fighter

Designed as a follow-on and a compliment to the F-13A Hellcat II, the Perseus tactical fighter is to that smaller craft what the Su-27 Flanker is to the MiG-29 Fulcrum. The Perseus was originally concieved as a low-altitude strike fighter, hence the use of Pulse-Detonation/Turbofan hybrid engines. At low speeds and altitudes, the turbofan operates at its peak, allowing the Perseus remarkable performance on its attack runs while at higher altitudes and speeds, the PDEs kick in, allowing the fighter to sprint at Mach numbers around and above 3. It has since evolved into something more, however, developing a quite unintended air-to-air capability over an unprecedented combat range. With a full compliment of drop tanks, the F-34 is capable of carrying a payload equal to a fully-laden F-13 operating solely on internal fuel.

Although not nearly as maneuverable as the radically-designed Hellcat II, the Perseus is nonetheless surprisingly agile for its size. Incorporating forward canard control surfaces, a broad, double delta wing, and all-moving horizontal tail surfaces offset into a triplane architecture, the F-34A can outmaneuver most aircraft it's size at all operating altitudes, even without factoring in its three-dimensional thrust vectoring. The use of fly-by-light controls simply improves this situation, as the pilot's commands are translated into actions almost at the speed of thought. A high-mounted bubble canopy provides both the pilot and his systems operator with exceptional visibility, while a revolutionary glass cockpit design provides them with exceptional access to tactical information in a timely manner.

Coupled with head-mounted sights, a supercooled IRST unit, an electro-optical targeting system, and the most advanced tactical radar produced in the Dominion to date, not to mention the real-time tactical information link provided by the Ericsson MIDIS system, allowing all similarily equipped aircraft to share data, the crew of an F-34A can access more information faster, and in a more intuitive fashion than any Dominion pilot since the inception of the DAF. On the modern battlefield, timely tactical information can be as deadly as any missile, and the rapid assimilation of such data is critical. The cockpit and systems of the F-34A are designed to make this task as simple as possible, leaving more of its crew's concentration for the matter of combat.

Capable of handling a wide range of weaponry, from NATO- and US-Standard ordinance to Warsaw Pact hardware, and Dominion-grown weaponry, the Perseus is a true multi-role fighter. As equally at home performing anti-tank, conventional, and nuclear strike duties as it is in air-to-air combat, and Wild Weasel missions, it is fast becoming a favourite of Dominion air crews, especially those coming from the aging F-15E Strike Eagle fighters formerly in Dominion service. A number of unique capabilities are available to this aircraft that were not available to the earlier bird. Not the least of these are the specialized pylons mounted towards the aft end of the engine nacelles. Although each is capable of carrying a single AIM-9 Sidewinder, or comparable missile, they were designed to carry the FIM-92Va SADAM, or Stinger Active Defence Aerial Missile.

A variant of the venerable Stinger, the SADAM was specifically designed to be fired in a direction opposite of the launching craft's flight. Designed with thrust vectoring paddles to improve maneuverability and allow the weapon to continue to track targets as it accelerates through zero airspeed, the SADAM allows the F-34A to fire on enemy fighters, even in a tail-chase situation. Equipped with an all-aspect infrared seeker head, the SADAM is perfectly capable of acquiring a lock on a fighter from any angle and pursuing it to the edge of its range. Generally, the Perseus carries two SADAM missiles, one on each of the aft pylons, although more can be carried on the other hardpoints.

Furthermore, although the configuration of the Perseus is shockingly conventional for a VAC product, and only marginally stealthy, a number of measures have been taken to render it one of the least visible craft in the skies. Much of the aircraft is constructed either of radar absorbant or radar transparent materials, cutting the cross-section down to roughly that of a Piper Cub. Additionally, the fighter includes the new Michael Tactical Sensor Countermeasure System from Longfield Electronics. Based heavily on the Archangel system purchased from Phoenixius, it provides a far greater range of capabilities in addition to those of the Archangel system. Rather than simply counteracting inbound radar signals, Michael provides information on the type and bearing of the radar source. It can also use its powerful transmitters to create false echoes while shielding itself, placing these echoes anywhere within one mile of the aircraft itself.

The only true limitation on the missions that a Perseus can perform and perform well is the aircraft's size and lack of specialized landing gear for carrier landings. Although a carrier-borne variant is under consideration, the F-23C Black Widow II is more likely to remain in place as the Dominion's primary naval tactical fighter for some years to come, albiet with upgrades intended to increase the lifespan and utility of the aircraft.

General Characteristics
Primary Function: Tactical Fighter
Contractors:
Vega Aerospace Consortium
Power Plant:
Two Kielly-Caesar LP14-KC-010 Pulse-Detonation/Turbofan Hybrid Engines w' full three-dimensional thrust vectoring
Length: 22.01 m (55 ft 2 in)
Height: 6.04 m (12 ft 11 in)
Wingspan: 15.17 m (38 ft 8 in)
Speed: 3,298 kph (2,049 mph/Mach 3.1)
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 34,940 kg (55,000 lbs)
Range: 1,609 km (1,000 mi) ferry range on internal fuel
Armament:
1x M82A1 Hailstorm 20mm Single-Barrel Semi-Guided Cannon with 300 rounds of ammunition
16x External Hardpoints (Five Wet)
Combat Systems:
Longfield Electronics TR116 Tactical Radar System
Ericsson Multifunction Integrated Defensive Information Systems (MIDIS)
Longfield Electronics SCIRSTS Supercooled Infrared Search and Track System
Longfield/RAFAEL AN/AAQ-81 Advanced Targeting and Navigation System
Longfield/Ericsson Vanguard Electro-Optical Targeting System
Longfield Electronics Michael Tactical Sensor Countermeasure System (TSCS)
Crew: Two (One Pilot, one Systems Operator)
Unit Cost: $46.3 million

Maybe I should make up some basic stats before I make this thing.

Speed is not as important as power and maneuverability. This thing doesn't have to be built for high-speed, but it's gotta be able to take high-gs. And of course, the Pilot has to be able to take it as well.

As far as weapons go, this thing is going to be a dogfighter, so I'm going to want the 30mm cannon, the flak cannon, and the qaam launchers from the RF-11.

As far as engines, it'll have basically the same thing as the RF-11D... 2 Pulse-Det/Jet Hybrids, and 2 Blasters

It'd be nice to have the STOL capability of the Q-Type too

So here are some questions:

Should I have forward-swept wings?
Should I have downward-swept wings? (For wing-in-ground effect)
What stealth should it have, if any?

For what kind of stealth you should have, I'd suggest using Low Probability of Intercept or LPI radars and Supercooled Infrared Search and Track systems to minimize electronic emissions while maximizing the ammount of information the aircraft can take in without alerting the enemy to its presence.

I'd also suggest using radar absorbant and radar transparent materials wherever possible to minimize the cross-section, and perhaps a phase-canceling system to neutralize the remaining radar return. If you're going to counter stealth aircraft through the use of high-maneuverability, then sneaking up on the enemy is probably a good idea. I wouldn't go with any of the radical cross-section reducing aircraft geometry, though. It would detract from your maneuverability.

I'd go with at least forward swept wing, and maybe give it a downward sweep, though not neccesarily. Again, the bonus in maneuverability would be a real advantage. On top of that, though, I'm offering you the use of our Michael Tactical Sensor Countermeasure System - It's a phase canceling ECM package with some extra capabilities as detailed above in the description of the Perseus. As well, Viking Military Technologies could make a 30mm variant of the Hailstorm cannon used in all our new fighters. Between precision guided cannon rounds and the flak cannon, you'd be able to tear opposing fighters to shreds.

No, man. ECMs are bad news in my book.

If your opponent has any sort of radio scanner on his plane, then any other stealth you have is worthless. Why? When you make a transmission, even a jamming transmission, anyone with the slightest edge of 80's technology can figure out where it's transmitting from.... and that direction, in turn, tells every other sensor on your plane where to look, and what to recognize in the targeting computer.

I don't know if I want stealth.. it just seems too have too many cons.

The guided cannon is cool though :)

Phase Cancelling ECM doesn't actually jam the radio wave. It simply rebroadcasts another wave 180 degrees out of phase so that the two waves cancel each other out - So that the rebroadcast wave has troughs where the other wave has peaks and peaks where it has troughs, thus leaving nothing to direction-find. As to the stealth features I'm suggesting, the physical stealth systems wouldn't alter the fighter's aerodynamics in any appreciable way. That's why I said go with a conventional hull architecture, but use radar absorbant and radar transparent materials to minimize the radar cross-section. This makes the fighter's cross section much smaller, but it would still be picked up on radar.

That's where the phase canceling comes in. Like I said, since it doesn't jam the radio wave, there's nothing to alert anyone listening in with a radio scanner or a direction finder that you're coming. There's simply an area of empty air where your plane should be as far as any radars or radio recievers are concerned. It just cancels out the radar return.

Active radar cancellation would definitely be possible nowadays. The bad thing is the development cycle - by the time the aircraft reaches production, it's avionics are many years behind. For example, the JSF (due 2009) has 1 Ghz processors. Good nowadays, but would be dated in 2009.

The 'clean' design of the F-22 also has other benefits like reducing drag, resulting in faster supercruise and longer range.

IMO, Guns are obselete (although don't take them off, they're so cheap anyways). New generation short range AAMs such as the ASRAAM, Python 4, and the AA-12 (wrong designation?) are pretty good.

In my research doctrine, why fit large powerful radars on your aircraft when AWACS will do the job?

Phase Cancelling ECM doesn't actually jam the radio wave. It simply rebroadcasts another wave 180 degrees out of phase so that the two waves cancel each other out - So that the rebroadcast wave has troughs where the other wave has peaks and peaks where it has troughs, thus leaving nothing to direction-find. As to the stealth features I'm suggesting, the physical stealth systems wouldn't alter the fighter's aerodynamics in any appreciable way. That's why I said go with a conventional hull architecture, but use radar absorbant and radar transparent materials to minimize the radar cross-section. This makes the fighter's cross section much smaller, but it would still be picked up on radar.

That's where the phase canceling comes in. Like I said, since it doesn't jam the radio wave, there's nothing to alert anyone listening in with a radio scanner or a direction finder that you're coming. There's simply an area of empty air where your plane should be as far as any radars or radio recievers are concerned. It just cancels out the radar return.It still transmits.

And it sounds like it has some sort of active detector/transmitter.

If it transmitts anything, I can pick it up.

That's illogical, what would you pick it up with? Using what? Describe this to me, seeing as it cancels out the outgoing wave to, leaving nothing to pick up.

Actually, even though Raysia probably can't explain why he thinks it wont work, I can explain a way around it....

Your normal radar emission looks like this:
http://www.dal.ca/~jughead/graphics/grey-sphere-bkrd.jpg
It is a single frequency, in all directions. When it is cancelled out, it has a side sliced off of it where no return signal comes from. When it changes frequency, a cancellation jammer changes frequency to match.

The solution comes when you project your radar like this:
http://www.jbarchuk.com/povray/bluegold1.gif
Each gridded area is a different frequency. When a frequency is cancelled out, one block of the grid disappears, telling you where the jamming signal is coming from by process of elimination. When the target moves into a new grid block, the old block returns and the new one dissapears. With a high enough resolution, its possible to pinpoint a target because it doesn't have a radar return.

Well, that's a problem. Of course, there's always Wetball and other types of RAM we have for project "Kaisa". Of course, you can try and choose what frequencies are transmitted (More likely, a computer would), but it's still difficult to get by gridded radar emissions.

And yes, I've had a new fighter in the works for a few days. I just can't get myself to be satisfied with what I have.

Terronian, your underwater fighter idea, I have it. Supercavitating subfighters, while not possible for 2020 tech, are possible for 2050. The F/S-39 and SF/A-15 are capable of hydro-aero manuvers. Unfortunately, I do not sell them outside alliances.

I hate to give out my own concept for my next generation multirole fighter and fighter-bomber...but...Next-Generation variable geometry? Not necessarily stealth (it can always use Active ECM, and if they're 'bad news in your book', there are other methods of stealth, I suppose...) but something akin to the switchblade...

Taiwan, I believe you mean the AA-11...

I employ guided cannons on my aircraft by the way.

[size=8]The next-generation multirole fighter will be called the ZF-32 in my air force, with an FSW bomber version as the ZF-36...[/i]

I hate to give out my own concept for my next generation multirole fighter and fighter-bomber...but...Next-Generation variable geometry? Not necessarily stealth (it can always use Active ECM, and if they're 'bad news in your book', there are other methods of stealth, I suppose...) but something akin to the switchblade...

Taiwan, I believe you mean the AA-11...

I employ guided cannons on my aircraft by the way.

[size=8]The next-generation multirole fighter will be called the ZF-32 in my air force, with an FSW bomber version as the ZF-36...[/i]

I hate to give out my own concept for my next generation multirole fighter and fighter-bomber...but...Next-Generation variable geometry? Not necessarily stealth (it can always use Active ECM, and if they're 'bad news in your book', there are other methods of stealth, I suppose...) but something akin to the switchblade...

Taiwan, I believe you mean the AA-11...

I employ guided cannons on my aircraft by the way.

[size=8]The next-generation multirole fighter will be called the ZF-32 in my air force, with an FSW bomber version as the ZF-36...[/i]

I hate to give out my own concept for my next generation multirole fighter and fighter-bomber...but...Next-Generation variable geometry? Not necessarily stealth (it can always use Active ECM, and if they're 'bad news in your book', there are other methods of stealth, I suppose...) but something akin to the switchblade...

Taiwan, I believe you mean the AA-11...

I employ guided cannons on my aircraft by the way.

[size=8]The next-generation multirole fighter will be called the ZF-32 in my air force, with an FSW bomber version as the ZF-36...(just for reference)[/i]

Hey, umm, Sileetris... Mind if I have that system? I could really use it :)

Some things:

1. Wings. I would be post likely going with a backward-swept wing, even though obviously it offers less maneuveribility and angle of attack limit than the forward swept wing. Although much forward swept wings does excellent maneuvers and the likes at low and medium speeds, at high speeds it isn't much better. While I'm sure that fatigue on FSWs can be solved at this stage, I'd still much go with either a Flanker/Fulcrom-style wing. Straight wing are out of question since I doubt that it could even achieve supersonic speeds.
2. Put loads in weapons bays. Not only it will increase stealth (which I will try to point out a few things about it), but it will also allow a bit higher speeds and maneuveribility since exterior placement of various weapons increases drag.

And abotu stealth...
3. Active radar cancellation. It's completely possible, and it has been said that the technology was developed in the Cold War days by NORAD (Air defence system set up by both of Canada and the US) to fool Soviet bombers in the analog ages. It has also been said by a lot of people that the Rafael fighters would be getting them. But the problems are as follows:
a) Frequency-jumping radars, such as AESA and LPI (most notably the APG-77), are frequency hopping unlike most of the ground-based ones. Although AESA and LPI are designed to minimalize the detection of the radio waves by enemy radar warning receivers, they can also pertty much outpower ARC. While ARC is definately possible with those that doesn't change frequency, what are these things going to do with a radar that emits pulses with different wavelengths and even different RF spectrums? Since that ARC is essentially emitting a "matching" pulse, and that there may be more than 10 different pulses under different wavelengths each second, it will be a long way before such computer that can sort out the different signals can at least be fitted onto aircraft.
b) Sure, processors will be much more powerful, but let's remember that the developers of the F/A-22 still has problems with the software -- large amoun of bugs inside a piece of software for a military aircraft or electric system is unexcuseable.
As much as LPI technology is still in development, the way to counter it by means of electric countermeasures, in my opinion, would be still much way off -- even with terahertz processors, how are you going to respond to multiple emitters emitting multiple frequencies so fast?

Also, a thing with guns:
Simply, guns are very useful in close-combat. Back in the 60es, the USAF and USN already thought about "hey, we have these new Sparrows and Sidewinders, we don't need guns", so they got rid of the gun from the F-4. But with F-4s constantly missed their missile shots, they are left gun-less for the MiG-17/19/21s to chop them off (and it isn't necessarily ebcause of the F-4's maneuverability and no-AIM-7-firing ROE either). Even with today's supermaneuverable missiles (especially the Python 5, AA-11/R-73, and AIM-9X), guns would eb still much more useful in close combat. Imagine a rain of tens of rounds onto some enemy aircraft, which can easily penetrate and create both explosive and incrediary effects.

Raysia, we'd have to work out some type of technology swap, because money really wouldn't be worth it to us, and giving it out for free would be stupid....

On the topic of defense from laser weapons: We had thought of the screen of reflective particles being shot out to mess the laser up, but with laser technology advancing so fast it would be very unreliable. Even IRL lasers are being developed with picosecond burn-through rates. It would be impossible for sensors on the plane to react fast enough, and the fact that the spray has to move in front of the beam means it would take a few nanoseconds to do any good, by which time you have a gaping hole in one wing.... Once we find a solution, we'll be sure to brag about it.

Allright, my plane is almost complete.
http://www.bateshome.com/jordan/rfx8.jpg

What would you want for your radar, Sileetris? How about the technology behind our Brother system (http://www.bateshome.com/jordan/brother.htm)? It seems fair... one detection system for another.

Designing a radar that looked for the blank area where there is no return would definately be possible - Though you could always design the ARC system to emit just enough noise so that it looks like empty air, instead of just a vacuum moving through the air at Mach 3. Also, AESA and LPI radars would likely be an absolute pain to try and counter, but older radars would likely be easier to fool - But if you can't counter the ground and air search radars (And we've just heard some really good arguments as to why you couldn't) then what about missile guidance radars? I don't mean the fire control systems on the fighters themselves. I mean the radar systems in the seeker heads of missiles like the AMRAAM, and other active radar homing missiles. If they can't shoot you from range, then maneuverability suddenly becomes more important.

One way or another, you're free to use the M91A1 Rainstorm 30mm Precision Guided Cannon on the new fighter if you want. The round itself has no fins or thrusters. It maneuvers by tilting the nose from one side to the other, changing the aerodynamics of the round and altering course. Otherwise, it's similar to other 30mm rounds in terms of range and the damage potential of the round itself. It's not perfect, but it improves accuracy to the point where you can score a kill with far fewer rounds because a larger number will strike the target.

Raysia: Good trade, sit tight though, we've got a system to beat Kotterdam's stuff in the works, and we'll give it to you on top of that out of the goodness of our hearts*.
http://suicidecrisiscenter.com/1art/dsphere.gif
*We want to see some furious dogfighting because stealth is negated.

Raysia: Good trade, sit tight though, we've got a system to beat Kotterdam's stuff in the works, and we'll give it to you on top of that out of the goodness of our hearts*.
http://suicidecrisiscenter.com/1art/dsphere.gif
*We want to see some furious dogfighting because stealth is negated.Well, I already posted the stats, but it's still up for editing.

And I still have to come up with the stats for the RF-X7, this thing's backswept-wing counterpart that many people wanted to see made:

http://www.bateshome.com/jordan/rx82.jpg

Any idea what role I could use this for? Keep in mind, I plan to get the Su-37s and VF-11s off my storefront ASAP... I want the fighters to be MINE :)