NationStates Jolt Archive

Since our attack on Doujin using 3 planes named "b-4" bombers, people hav been asking me about them, therefore I will give a glimpse to this elusive plane....

I give you the B-4 advanced concept

http://members.lycos.nl/voicustyle/Concept.jpg

I won't go into details, but the plane can go over mach 8 in hyperbolic flight.

Questions?

(I was going to use that picture...bastard!)

how does it get to mach 8 (are you modern tech?)

OOC: id rather buy it of you than farfecthed, I don't agree with his war on Doujin

(I was going to use that picture...bastard!)

Doesn't matter, it's probalby (*sp?) overused anyway

how does it get to mach 8 (are you modern tech?)

The plane uses Aerospike engines, the pilot can withstand the massive acceleration because the cockpit it flooded in liquid dampening the G-force effect
(yes I'm modern tech)

(True true...Then again the pics i'm using...*shrugs*)

(True true...Then again the pics i'm using...*shrugs*)

:evil:

(True true...Then again the pics i'm using...*shrugs*)

:evil:

(What did I do/say now? I meant the veritech pics....<_< sorry?)

(True true...Then again the pics i'm using...*shrugs*)

:evil:

(What did I do/say now? I meant the veritech pics....<_< sorry?)

figuers....those have been used dozens of times

Is this one of the low-earth orbit bombers?

Is this one of the low-earth orbit bombers?

Low to middle orbit,

Mach 8... I'd say that was generally impossible, even with a whatever cockpit.

Mach 8... I'd say that was generally impossible, even with a whatever cockpit.

well technically now in about 10 years NASA will have developed an engine for use of commerical Aircraft that'll go Mach 7 so if he just tunes it down by 1 mach, then he isn't really god-modding

I'd say this would be a bit too advanced for me (at 2010), but at 2040-2050 it may be possible.

Well, that's 10 years from now. I role-play 2004-2006. I tend to ignore anything past 2006.

Mach 8... I'd say that was generally impossible, even with a whatever cockpit.

well technically now in about 10 years NASA will have developed an engine for use of commerical Aircraft that'll go Mach 7 so if he just tunes it down by 1 mach, then he isn't really god-modding
NASA has already acheived MACH 7.

Yes, but with an unmanned ship that was propelled by a very large rocket.

<tag>

<tag>

Umm, yeah, i'm gonna have to call your godmod here.

Aerospike engines take gobs of fuel... like the kind you'd see on a space shuttle. Where do you keep all this fuel?

Yes, but with an unmanned ship that was propelled by a very large rocket.actually, it managed to get from mach 5 to mach 7 by itself. Only problem is, it lasted for like 10-15 seconds...

Mach 8... I'd say that was generally impossible, even with a whatever cockpit.

well technically now in about 10 years NASA will have developed an engine for use of commerical Aircraft that'll go Mach 7 so if he just tunes it down by 1 mach, then he isn't really god-moddingIt goes RELATIVELY mach 7. What you miss is that they are not in air when they go that fast, they are in loworbit, like 50 miles or so. The space shuttle goes mach 24 relative to seal level... but certainly doesn't have to deal with the air. And the only g-forces would come from accelleration! Who says you have to fly at full throttle the whole time?

Umm, yeah, i'm gonna have to call your godmod here.

Aerospike engines take gobs of fuel... like the kind you'd see on a space shuttle. Where do you keep all this fuel?

OOC: For that matter, where did you get the kind of infrastructure neccesary not just to fuel these, but to maintain them? You're not a country, but aircraft like these require airstrips. They require specialized fuel. They require reams and reams of spare parts, otherwise they become unreliable and fail. Hypersonic flight isn't just hard on pilots - It would be hard on their craft as well. At those speeds, the hull temperature would be incredible, and the stress of maneuvering would wreak havoc on the bomber's mechanical systems.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying that someone who has stated that they aren't a country can't support it unless someone else who has that kind of infrastructure maintains them for you. It doesn't matter if you're not a terrorist organization, or if you're what's left of a country's military. Unless you have the neccesary infrastructure, you can't maintain such a craft. A country could do it, and so could a multinational MegaCorp, like Resi, if he was modern. The shattered remains of a defunct country's military can not.

Rules for hypersonic flight:

1) Make sure you have enough fuel to keep going longer than 10 seconds.

2) Never, under any circumstances, make any coarse maneuvers.

3) If the engine is air-breathing, make sure there are no moving parts that can overheat.

4) Remember that you can probably only sustain hypersonic speeds at very high altitude, with low air density.

5) You can't bomb anyone while hypersonic... your bombs would burn up or go horribly off-course.

6) Of course, you can not dogfight at hypersonic speeds.

And 7), just because it annoys me: If you use scramjets, remember they only START working at high speed, so you have to have another engine to get you up to speed.

Rule Number 8: If someone shoots something at you, you can't get the hell out of the way.

Rule Number 8: If someone shoots something at you, you can't get the hell out of the way.Wrong. If someone is shooting at you with anything less than a scramjet cruise missile or laser beam, you will outrun the bullets.

Oh yeah, Real Rule 8: By the time your enemies hear you coming, you're already off their radar :P

Raysia: If you've got a weapon that can catch them, then you own their ass. I was more thinking, though, that if you shot even a Sidewinder at someone moving Mach 8 from a head-on aspect, you'd ruin their whole day.

Well, you're both right.

What Kotterdam is trying to say Raysia, is that if the missile is incoming right in front of you, you aint gonna get out the way of it.

Well, you're both right.

What Kotterdam is trying to say Raysia, is that if the missile is incoming right in front of you, you aint gonna get out the way of it.From what? What missile system could target you? First off, you're up high. But even if you weren't, SAMs and fighters don't have that long of a radar scope... you'd have to KNOW the fighter was coming, or have a massive network of radars. because at 6000 mph, you're going to be on and off their radar screens in like 10 seconds, which is way too short to realize you have a target, fire, and hope the missile gets in their path.

The probability/chance of hitting a hypersonic aircraft is neglegable. The thing you have to worry about is birds :)

OOC: Early Warning Radars, like the kind the Dominion uses for Ballistic Missile Defense would likely see it coming. In fact, one of our Terminal Phase ABMs would probably swat one of these out of the sky as easy as pie. They're capable of getting in the path of and destroying ballistic inbounds moving at something like Mach 20+.

Well, yes, any ABM system worth its salt would pick one up from long distance, the same technolgy used to shoot down ICBMs would certainly not have any trouble with something else moving fast in a straight line.

Even if it did maintain a high altitude, what point would it be? It would travelling far too fast for any form of effective reconnaiasance a satellite could do much better, and, as you said, any weapon fired would be instantaneously destroyed as it left the weapons bay.

Flying that fast at low level brings it own difficulties as well. It would be easier to detect, first off, and at such speed the plane would heat to the point of disintergrating...

Its a nice concept...but of little practical value.

Farfetched Prospect

You are an official Enemy now, as we knew not you "Nuked" Doujin, a Comrade Brethren Ally that allowed a Colonial Outpost to be constructed in his territory far off.

Intern, your Nation will experience a rage never before seen, and after the Imperium is delt with once and for all, you will know why no one attacks Allies of Nodea Rudav.

The Former-USSNR ICBM Satellite hasn't fired but two of its Compliment of Atomic, Hydrogen, and Neutronic Warheads. I care not for Your People, as you fools have pressed the limit of our patience.

You will be punished.

Aerospike engines take gobs of fuel... like the kind you'd see on a space shuttle. Where do you keep all this fuel?

See the trick is that these planes are totally disposable and are only usable a sort of kamikaze planes, they take a hyperbolic flight, use engines for two to 6 seconds to get to speed and then drop on target, so basicly it's a manned cruise missle, And I only build the three prototypes for that attack that I made

For weapons on such aircraft, I use a slab of metal weighing in at one ton. I just drop it (using computers to tell me wehn to release it so it doesnt overshoot/undershoot the target area) and go. Its speed and mass at impact causes enough havoc to not need explosives.

And that pic looks like the Auroa (sp?) bomber from CnC Generals.

And that pic looks like the Auroa (sp?) bomber from CnC Generals.

I just found it on google...didn't say anything about Generals

And that pic looks like the Auroa (sp?) bomber from CnC Generals.

I just found it on google...didn't say anything about Generals

OOC: That is concept art for the Aurora bomber from C&C Generals. In fact, I've got a copy of that picture languishing on my hard drive right now. :) Except that mine says "Property of EA, violators will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law" or something like that. :)

IC: You have attacked an ally and fellow GDI member. You will submit to whatever reparations that Doujin askes for, or face serious consequences. *OOC: despite the fact that I am a future nation, I also maintain modernish weapons, so I won't be attacking you with any SuperDuperDeathRayBeams(tm). Just things like Automated tanks and such*

IC: You have attacked an ally and fellow GDI member. You will submit to whatever reparations that Doujin askes for, or face serious consequences. *OOC: despite the fact that I am a future nation, I also maintain modernish weapons, so I won't be attacking you with any SuperDuperDeathRayBeams(tm). Just things like Automated tanks and such*

Owwww....I'm shaking im my little space boots

Seeing as you know a bit about CnC, are you into modding, Central Facehuggia? I was, but I no longer am/capable of it

OOC: Shake all you want. When the time comes, it won't be future tech that crushes you.

Seeing as you know a bit about CnC, are you into modding, Central Facehuggia? I was, but I no longer am/capable of it

I can mod all the CnC games up to Red Alert 2. Generals is just too complicated. So much stuff :shock:. Although I could probably learn if I had to.

Central Facehuggeria, with regret, I have resigned from the GDI last week due to Hogsweat's nuclear disaster. It showed instability.. that and the alliance was really inactive.

OOC: I used to be able to mod RA2/YR, Tiberian Sun, etc. and was going to create a mod, but I got sidetracked by this game. With a bit of effort (and redownloading XCC mixer, etc.) I could get back in. I have a few voxels around here somewhere though....

OOC: Really? Damn, that's what I get for not paying attention to the alliance. :) Anyway, fournately I still consider you an "ally", not to mention the fact that I consider (ICly) a nuclear strike to be dishonorable unless used as a last resort.

Farfetched Prospect

You are weak......
You are simple......
You are ignorant......
You will fall......

Farfetched Prospect

You are weak......
You are simple......
You are ignorant......
You will fall......

and I thought we were above insults...*sigh*

If I may make an observation here.. What it really comes down to Farfetches, is your a 2004 Nation, most of those against your are 2003 and much, Much more stronger in size... You are simply outclassed my friend...

Yea, Whittier, the thing is, they haven't had sustained Mach 7. The X-15 stood as the fastest aircraft ever for the longest time, at Mach 5, but it was rocket powered and had to be carried to altitude by another aircraft. Basically the same thing with the X-43 (I think it was -43. Either -43 or -45.) the other day. High speed, unsustained, with unconventional power source.

If I may make an observation here.. What it really comes down to Farfetches, is your a 2004 Nation, most of those against your are 2003 and much, Much more stronger in size... You are simply outclassed my friend...

What you can't fight you have to outsmart....and that's exactly what I got planned right now....I've got a little surprise planned for Scandanavian States for nuking my city

This is going to hurt, for someone. I don't know who yet, but right now, it looks like prospects.

OOC: Mach 8 is quite frankly, impossible. The G-Forces would cause the pilot to black out instantly, the extreme pressure on the airframe would tear it to shreds, and attempting to open a weapons pod door at that speed would result in it breaking apart. Even if you had craft that fast, the military application would be limited by anyone's standards.

IC:
This truly is a farfetched prospect. That sounds about as likely as a cataclysmic end of the universe from our joint research w/ P4lladia in superstring manipulation (as you predicted). (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=123539&highlight=)

Yours derisively,
Dr. Rand Warner, Director of the Ministry of Science

OOC: Mach 8 is quite frankly, impossible. The G-Forces would cause the pilot to black out instantly, the extreme pressure on the airframe would tear it to shreds, and attempting to open a weapons pod door at that speed would result in it breaking apart. Even if you had craft that fast, the military application would be limited by anyone's standards.


Yours derisively,
Dr. Rand Warner, Director of the Ministry of Science

may I also say that when trains were first build, some scientists thought that it could never work? according to them all air would be sucked out of the train if it would go faster then 40km.....never under-estimate sience....

however, they didn't have computer simulations.

and what is this sience you speak of?

OK, guys. come one, where are you getting this high speed=high g forces crap? Seriously! They do not correspond!

good point, come two :lol:

Raysia, a plane going that fast wouldn't be able to move very well.. well.. they could.. just milimeters at a time. Nothing drastic, or yes the G-Forces at those speeds would cause blackouts..

Raysia, a plane going that fast wouldn't be able to move very well.. well.. they could.. just milimeters at a time. Nothing drastic, or yes the G-Forces at those speeds would cause blackouts..

G-forces only would occur at acceleration and fast movement, I think it's possible, it's simple pysics,

Raysia, a plane going that fast wouldn't be able to move very well.. well.. they could.. just milimeters at a time. Nothing drastic, or yes the G-Forces at those speeds would cause blackouts..Umm... duh? What idiot would try to maneuve in air at those speeds? The plane's wings would rip off if you pitched more than like .1 degrees per second! Does that make it impossible to do though? No... the Space shuttle goes relatively Mach 24, and they're going around in circles the whole time! Do they feel g forces? no! They are relatively weightless!

Raysia, a plane going that fast wouldn't be able to move very well.. well.. they could.. just milimeters at a time. Nothing drastic, or yes the G-Forces at those speeds would cause blackouts..

G-forces only would occur at acceleration and fast movement, I think it's possible, it's simple pysics,So gradually increase force as you go faster... you could accellerate at .5 gs if you wanted to.

He's saying that people are acting like the simple act of traveling at that speed causes huge Gs, when it's not. It's acceleration, deceleration, and turning from and at those speeds that cause them. Once the craft is at a level plane and steady speed, the feel of gravity returns to normal.

Raysia, a plane going that fast wouldn't be able to move very well.. well.. they could.. just milimeters at a time. Nothing drastic, or yes the G-Forces at those speeds would cause blackouts..

G-forces only would occur at acceleration and fast movement, I think it's possible, it's simple pysics,So gradually increase force as you go faster... you could accellerate at .5 gs if you wanted to.

Sure, but it would take a hell of a long time to get up to speed,

never under-estimate sience....

OOC: This is why there are different levels of technology in Nation States. You have:

Modern Technology - What we are capable of doing now.

Post Modern Technology - What we could be cabable of in the future up to 2050 (2050 is the one I'll go with, but it's could be a bit more).

Future Technology - Anything that pushes science beyond what we cabable of in the near future. Anti-matter technology, nanites... you name it.


I would personally call your technology Post Modern Technology. Iuthia's pretty much [i]Post Modern Technology because of our NAFDA system (I can't argue that one) though I can extend myself to crappy Future Tech by using a predesigned space fleet anbd I can limit myself to Modern Tech by not using some of my technologies... though if the actual home nation is at risk I can't do it, because the defence is mostly Post Modern.

Thats how I would percieve it and if I was to be involved in any RP with you I would only acknowledge it as Post Modern... In My Own Opinion.

Raysia, a plane going that fast wouldn't be able to move very well.. well.. they could.. just milimeters at a time. Nothing drastic, or yes the G-Forces at those speeds would cause blackouts..

G-forces only would occur at acceleration and fast movement, I think it's possible, it's simple pysics,So gradually increase force as you go faster... you could accellerate at .5 gs if you wanted to.

Sure, but it would take a hell of a long time to get up to speed,0.5 gs while accellerating.

v=1/2at^2

2631m/s(mach 8)=1/2*(0.5*9.8m/s)*t^2
*rounds numbers*
2600/2.5=t^2
t^2=1040
t=32 seconds

If you had a powerful enough engine, and could pull .5 gs forward, it would take you 32 seconds to get up to mach 8... unless I am waaaay off :P

But of course, a 100,000 lb bomber going .5gs would need 1.8 million lbs of thrust, neglecting air friction :P

for some reason that didn't make any sense what so ever

for some reason that didn't make any sense what so everbasic physics.

If you could somehow accellerate at .5gs, then you'd be at mach 8 in 30 seconds.

oops, yeah, wrong formula :P

stupid me!

v = u + at

2600=5t

2600/5=t

t=520

yeah, 520 seconds at .5gs sounds right

oops, yeah, wrong formula :P

stupid me!

v = u + at

2600=5t

2600/5=t

t=520

yeah, 520 seconds at .5gs sounds right

yeah...that sounds way more plausible

G forces result from acceleration, which includes circular motion.

Raysia, you're using the kinetic equation.

G forces result from acceleration, which includes circular motion.

Raysia, you're using the kinetic equation.I know, I know :P

Still, where do pilot-blacking-out g-forces come into play here?!

G forces result from acceleration, which includes circular motion.

Raysia, you're using the kinetic equation.I know, I know :P

Still, where do pilot-blacking-out g-forces come into play here?!

at about 6 g's .....trained pilots up to 8 g's

g=9.81m/s^2

and thus, 9Gs means 88.29m/s^2

:shock:

OOC: I'm not good with math, so 9.81m/s what?

G forces result from acceleration, which includes circular motion.

Raysia, you're using the kinetic equation.I know, I know :P

Still, where do pilot-blacking-out g-forces come into play here?!

at about 6 g's .....trained pilots up to 8 g'sWHERE DO THEY COME FROM? g forces don't happen spontaneously.

Tell me where the g-forces would come from.

OOC: I'm not good with math, so 9.81m/s what?accelleration of gravity

OOC: Yes, I can see that.. but 9.81m/s^2.. the bolded/italicized part is what I do not get :-p I wasn't taught Math for 3 years, 5th, 6th and 7th grade so I'm not great in it.

G forces result from acceleration, which includes circular motion.

Raysia, you're using the kinetic equation.I know, I know :P

Still, where do pilot-blacking-out g-forces come into play here?!

at about 6 g's .....trained pilots up to 8 g'sWHERE DO THEY COME FROM? g forces don't happen spontaneously.

Tell me where the g-forces would come from.

I don't know where it comes from, it's jus there that's what I know,

Acceleration pushes you back, the faster you accelerate, the harder it pushes you this is calles G-force

farfetched, you cost me the production rights for the f109d! :evil:

G forces result from acceleration, which includes circular motion.

Raysia, you're using the kinetic equation.I know, I know :P

Still, where do pilot-blacking-out g-forces come into play here?!

at about 6 g's .....trained pilots up to 8 g'sWHERE DO THEY COME FROM? g forces don't happen spontaneously.

Tell me where the g-forces would come from.

I don't know where it comes from, it's jus there that's what I know,

Acceleration pushes you back, the faster you accelerate, the harder it pushes you this is calles G-forceSoo... umm... newton's 1st law... for every action, there is an equal reaction... If you're experiencing 8gs... something has to be putting 8gs of force on you... so where do these gs come from? They can only come from a change in velocity... so what is changing in velocity at a rate of 8gs?!

farfetched, you cost me the production rights for the f109d! :evil:

When did I do that?....

because i supported you, new empire withdrew my production rights for the F109D!

OOC: Yes, I can see that.. but 9.81m/s^2.. the bolded/italicized part is what I do not get :-p I wasn't taught Math for 3 years, 5th, 6th and 7th grade so I'm not great in it.Oh... umm... Velocity is the rate of change in distance. Accelleration is the rate of change in velocity.

m/s = speed
m/s/s= accelleration

m/s/s=(m/s)*(1/s)=m/s^2

Oh, and s^2 means s-squared

OOC: Yes, I know the metric system and abreviations, just wasn't totally sure that the ^2 part was squared..

G forces result from acceleration, which includes circular motion.

Raysia, you're using the kinetic equation.I know, I know :P

Still, where do pilot-blacking-out g-forces come into play here?!

at about 6 g's .....trained pilots up to 8 g'sWHERE DO THEY COME FROM? g forces don't happen spontaneously.

Tell me where the g-forces would come from.

I don't know where it comes from, it's jus there that's what I know,

Acceleration pushes you back, the faster you accelerate, the harder it pushes you this is calles G-forceSoo... umm... newton's 1st law... for every action, there is an equal reaction... If you're experiencing 8gs... something has to be putting 8gs of force on you... so where do these gs come from? They can only come from a change in velocity... so what is changing in velocity at a rate of 8gs?!

In this case, either acceleration, deceleration, or turning.

OK now... someone answer me WHY going mach 8 means unbarable g-forces? I do not see the connection!

the human body sucks at endurance

the human body sucks at enduranceWhat is there to endure? High speed doesn't mean anything... Drive 120 mph down the open road... If you close your eyes, you might as well be going 30.

No reason why you can't go Mach 8. Just don't accelerate/decelelreate or turn too quickly.

No reason why you can't go Mach 8. Just don't accelerate/decelelreate or turn too quickly.Duh?

Now, the real question is... wtf is hyperbolic flight?! Doesn't that mean "orbit"?!

OOC:
I believe so. That's what made me think of using ABMs to shoot them down.

OOC:
I believe so. That's what made me think of using ABMs to shoot them down.So... it's orbital... it's disposable... it's got smart bombs that can hit a precise target 200,000 feet below them... why not just get rid of the pilot, and get rid of the wings, and make this thing 1/10th the cost?

it could be called an "ICBM"

An ICBM? It doesn't even re-enter!

Or does it??

he seems to have given up…

no, just gone to bed.

ah…I live in England :roll:

and I the us, its 5:30 here and i have yet to sleep.

The aircraft itself is potentially doable, and is in fact based on an actual concept (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/hypersoar.htm). However, there are some issues in application, most notably weapons delivery. He has to design a completely new series of weapons because the only ones that currently exist that could be dropped would be ICBM warheads. Of course, as stated, there also needs to be a solution for deploying the weapons. A simple drop might indeed prove problematic.

Yeah, his implementation of the idea kinda sucks. And that's my professional opinion as an engineer. :)

Well the Idea is that the weapon explodes while still in the weapon bay....and considering I'm not that far with automated flight I'll have to use pilots