NationStates Jolt Archive

Greetings,

Following a recent Naval build up, it has been decided that a new class of submarine must be constructed to complete the Naval 5 Year Plan.

Shinoxian scientists has little experience in this field and failed to come up with a design to meet the Royal Navy's standards.

Following the development and construction of the Antarctic Maelstrom Torpedo, a Submarine platform became even more useful.

Although the Shinoxian government has been reluctant to have it's submarine design come from another foregin power, it must be done.

Any nation that can come up with a design built around speed and mobility will be paid a sum of 110 billion dollars (US).

Another 50 billion will be added for production rights.

A minimum of 50 submarines are required.

Are you interested in a joint project? TM if you are. We can start one together and create an ultimate submarine

I would love to join for a cheaper price.

OCC: While my nation is young, I personally have great knowledge on subs. I know how they work and what they need to opporate well.

We must map out objective,

-What type of material for the hull, cheap steel, or expensive and size limiting, but strong Titanium which can't be detected by MAD gear?

-What speed does it need to be?

-How much automation?

-What will it have to do, insert SEALS, attack ships, have TLAMs, launch nukes, gather intel, etc.

-What are cost restrictions?

-How big do we want it?

-What about nuclear reactors?

-will it have a SAM system like the Kilo?

-what types of SONAR and radar?

-What will its max depth be?

I would love to join for a cheaper price.

OCC: While my nation is young, I personally have great knowledge on subs. I know how they work and what they need to opporate well.

We must map out objective,

-What type of material for the hull, cheap steel, or expensive and size limiting, but strong Titanium which can't be detected by MAD gear?

-What speed does it need to be?

-How much automation?

-What will it have to do, insert SEALS, attack ships, have TLAMs, launch nukes, gather intel, etc.

-What are cost restrictions?

-How big do we want it?

-What about nuclear reactors?

-will it have a SAM system like the Kilo?

-what types of SONAR and radar?

-What will its max depth be?

Penguisiana you have a TM.

While you may be a young nation, IDF your knowledge of subs could land you the contract.

1. Titanium hull.

2. LoL Fast.

3. Not sure about automation, I'll let you be the judge.

4. An Attack Sub

5. No cost restrictions, if it preforms very well, I'll pay the fee.

6. Size? This Sub is built to be fast and mobile. I would like to have it designed around the Antarctic Maelstrom Torpedo (very similar to the Russia Shvkal). It needs to be able to unleash it's load, and then get out of there.

7. The sub needs to be fast, you be the judge of the amount of reactors.

8. Yes.

9. You decide.

If you come out with an original idea built around the Maelstrom, I may award you the contract.

The Zoogie People regards this submarine project with great interest...although our experience with submarines is limited, we wish to help in any way possible.

Please visit the Royal Shipyards of Isselmere-Nieland at the site below:

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=130822

We have two submarines that can potentially satisfy your requirements. the PFB Väth and PFB Golub'.

The Väth is a light reconnaissance vessel, with a length of 94m, a displacement of 15500 tons, a maximum speed of 34 knots, a single nuclear reactor, and a maximum diving depth of 840m. It's armed with 5 torpedo tubes (4 forward, 1 back) and a SAM launcher. Its primary function is reconnaissance and special operations, which is aided by its high speed and maneuverability, deep diving capability, extra surveillance equipment, and advanced sound insulation. However, its armament is weak, and its duration of 40 days short.

The Golub' is a medium attack/missile vessel. 120m long, 30000t displacement, max speed 28 knots, twin nuclear reactors, max depth 600m. Its much heavier armament of 8 tubes, 2 cruise/SS missile launchers, 2 SAM launchers, and a deployable on-deck 200mm gun make it a much better attack vessel than the Väth, but it's not as fast or maneuverable.

Of course, we have other submarines, but they are based on firepower (like most of our military is), and hence not suited to your requirements. We do notice, however, that firepower is more effective than mobility, even in the case of submarines.

We also perhaps already have a sub that perhaps can meet your specifications, aside from the titanium hull (which could be done with modifications).

http://i.timeinc.net/popsci/images/science/sci0403subs_A1.jpg
Manta class fast attack minisub
Length: 40 feet
Height: 9 feet
Width: 30 feet
Max speed with standard armament: 60 knots
Max Operating Depth: 700 feet (home sub may not go below this depth either, or the mini sub will be crushed)
Crew: 3
Combat Radius: 100 miles
Armament: 10 horizontal launch tubes, which can hold any tube launched weapon under 20 feet in length, including Mk. 48 and torpedo tube launched Tomahawk cruise missiles. Tubes can be simultaneously fired. No added storage. Comes with Mk. 50 torpedoes.
Cost: 525 million, 10% discount to regional allies.

Deployed from a larger sub, this vessel's speed and ability to empty all of its weaponry at once makes it perfect for fast hit and run attacks on enemy coast lines. The high amount of noise it generates while operating does not matter in most cases, because its amazing speed enables it to outrun most torpedoes. In fact, this speedy ship is able to become completely airborne for a very brief moment when performing an emergency rise at full speed. Its short combat radius requires it to return to the "mother" sub or base very often for refueling, limiting it to fast attack and return missions, close quarters aid for battles with other subs, and close range coastal defense.

I would love to join for a cheaper price.

OCC: While my nation is young, I personally have great knowledge on subs. I know how they work and what they need to opporate well.

We must map out objective,

-What type of material for the hull, cheap steel, or expensive and size limiting, but strong Titanium which can't be detected by MAD gear?

-What speed does it need to be?

-How much automation?

-What will it have to do, insert SEALS, attack ships, have TLAMs, launch nukes, gather intel, etc.

-What are cost restrictions?

-How big do we want it?

-What about nuclear reactors?

-will it have a SAM system like the Kilo?

-what types of SONAR and radar?

-What will its max depth be?

Penguisiana you have a TM.

While you may be a young nation, IDF your knowledge of subs could land you the contract.

1. Titanium hull.

2. LoL Fast.

3. Not sure about automation, I'll let you be the judge.

4. An Attack Sub

5. No cost restrictions, if it preforms very well, I'll pay the fee.

6. Size? This Sub is built to be fast and mobile. I would like to have it designed around the Antarctic Maelstrom Torpedo (very similar to the Russia Shvkal). It needs to be able to unleash it's load, and then get out of there.

7. The sub needs to be fast, you be the judge of the amount of reactors.

8. Yes.

9. You decide.

If you come out with an original idea built around the Maelstrom, I may award you the contract.

1. Titanium is what the Russian Alfa has, airborne MAD detectors won't work on it which is good. It is expensive, but strong allowing a deeper diving depth of about 2,250 feet.

2. I recomment the Liquid Metal reactors used on Soviet Alfa class subs, their speed is 45 knots which is better than the 30 knot average of most subs.

3. Recommended to allow a smaller crew and maintenance cost. crew size should be about 100 vs. the 131 on 688i class subs

4. I agree, but will it have TLAM capability, mines, or special force deployment

5. good

6. Size will be determined by answer to #4. Any sub should be able to carry the torps you want so that doesn't matter in size

7. 2 x liquid metal reactors

8. I recommend a simple one like SA-7 which can take out ASW choppers

9. we should develop a new radar and sonar

Shinoxia, if you would please contact me in private I am most certain we could work out a deal. Doujinshi Corporation is one of the leading corporations on the Military Naval Vessel scene.

While a titanium hull would be nice, it is also very expensive. Instead, we suggest a Titanium-mesh steel hull. Also, we have advanced Photonic Masts which are better than the normal mast used by the average submarine. The torpedo tubes on a submarine we would design for you would be capable of launching not only your Maelstrom Torpedos, but also conventional torpedos.

Instead of a nuclear reactor, we suggest an AIP - Air Independant Propulsion System using a Diesel-Electric Hydrogen Fuel Cell.. the hydrogen fuel cell allowing the sub to run for weeks.. one or two months. This would decrease the noise, as nuclear reactor pumps must always be on.

Alternative modes of contacting me outside of TGs:
AIM: Obsideus
Yahoo: gaizme
MSN: obsideus@verizon.net
Email: obsideus@verizon.net

Sorry Doujin, but AIP takes away speed.

OCC: Even if we buy other subs, we should design one.

I would be honored if a great designer like Doujin helped. HIs designs are amazing.

Shinoxia, might I inquire why you want it to be fast? I mean, sure the Alfa Class can go 45 knots but it can't maintain acoustic stealth at those speeds.. And as far as Radar and Sonar goes, Doujinshi has that one down pat ;) Check out the Doujin for it's sonar and radar suites if you are misbelieving :P

As a member of the design team, I would be honored if Doujin allowed us to use his Radar, SONAR systems. I am wondering if we can make a deal where if we design the sub we can have Doujin sell them if he gives us discounts there. I like Doujin he knows what he is talking about, besides I love debating naval warships and talking about them. I have most the Janes books on this and read Clancy.

Using the Alfa would require a complete redesign of most of the critical components of the sub for it to be worth using. Their sensors were frequently defective, and they were poorly armed. That can be corrected by using your own armaments and sensors, not too difficult. Though you'd still have to deal with size restrictions that kept the armament of the Alfa down to around 20 torps most of the time.

Also, while amazingly fast, as previously stated, once the Alfa started getting up to speed, there was no hiding it on any sonar display for miles. It also wasn't the most maneuverable sub in the world.

The biggest problem is the liquid metal reactors, which have tons of problems associated with them. The liquid metal must be kept heated at all times to prevent it from solidifying. A malfunction in the reactor heating system will cause HUGE problems, IE: Catastrophic failure of the reactor. The metal must be kept heated even when in port, meaning that special facilities must be constructed at their docks to provide extreme amounts of heat to the liquid metal, or the reactors must be kept running even in port.

We aren't using Alfa, but basing part of the design on Alfa.

I'm merely pointing out design flaws in the Alfa that would be poor choices if incorporated into the design. Doujin suggested 2 liquid metal reactors as the power plant, that wouldn't be too wise of an idea.

Remember they failed because the Ruskies designed them. The russians ****ed up even basic reactors in the HEN reactor on thier 1st group of subs. We can improve the design.

I'm sure you can solve the reactor problems. And incluse a good sensor arry. But any ship, surfacwe or submarie, will cavitate at speeds much in exess of 20 knots, let alone 45. At those speeds your sensors will be degraded, american attack boats use a sprint and drift tactic because they can't see at high speeds. Dinally, what's the point in having a sub that's that fast? the stats look impressive, but when a shkvall can go at 240mph under water, and even conventional torpedos approach speeds of 80 knots, you won't be able to outrun them.

Great Mateo, I suggested an Air Independant Propulsion system with a Diesel-Electric Advanced Hydrogen Fuel cell, not two liquid metal reactors. I refrain from using liquid metal reactors in my subs for those very reasons.

OOC: Very few torpedoes go 80 knots. I challenge anyone to name 3 conventional designs that do. Most max out at 45-55 knots.
Aside from deployment issues, high speed is most useful for escaping after launching weapons. With the distance that the submarine has to be at to fire supercavitating torpedoes, you can almost guarantee that it'll be heard as soon as it engages. Since it's already close enough to be detected, speed is the best way to get out.
Titanium hulls are much stronger than most composites, and that translates to two things. First is a deeper diving depth, and titanium-hulled boats can dive deep enough to evade most, if not all torpedoes. They also are much more resilistant to weapons than normal subs, which means they're more likely to survive a hit, especially from the common 12.75" weapons.

Doujin, AIP is vastly overrated by its proponents. The speed used for guaging endurance of non-nuclear submarines is 3 knots. Even an AIP boat can't go for long at full power. AIP boats are slow and very short ranged units. Even the best ones are only really suitable for operating in or very close to home and friendly waters. That seriously limits utility.

As for my entry:
IC:
Mamba SSN
Displacement: 4900 tons submerged
Length: 83.6m
Beam: 9.5m
Draft: 7.5m
Official Speed: 48 knots maximum, 16 knots tactical
Actual Speed: 48.56 knots maximum*
Official Maximum Diving Depth: 600m (2000 ft)
Actual Maximum Diving Depth: 1200m (4000 ft)*
Crush Depth: 1500m (5000 ft)
Sonar: BQQ-16 with active/passive bow arrays, BQG-15 Wide Aperture Arrays, TB-53 Thin Line Towed Array, TB-47A Fat Line Towed Array, WLY-2 Acoustic Intercept
EW: BLD-14 suite
Countermeasures: 1xReloadable 76mm Countermeasures Launcher, 12xExternal Decoy Launchers
Armament: 6x21” TT w/ 24 weapons
Typical Load: 18x21” Torpedo, 6xHarpoon/Shinma B
Crew: 59
This is an exceptionally fast submarine based on the concept of the Soviet Alfa class, and it’s primarily used as a rapid deployment unit. At normal speeds, this unit is about as quiet as the Seawolf, with a slightly lower tactical speed. Sensors, though significantly degraded when making high-speed dashes, are also about equal to the Seawolf. The ship, as noted, is exceptionally fast, with a flank speed of 48 knots, and a cruising speed of well over 35. Normal operations are generally limited to the tactical speed of 16 knots, with high-speed dashes being used to get out of danger or deploy quickly to a combat zone. As with the Alfa, this submarine is actually capable of outrunning many torpedoes. A definite plus!
The titanium hull of the vessel also makes it extremely durable, providing an exceptional diving depth and resistance to weapons. This vessel is extremely hard to damage with the light torpedoes commonly used for ASW operations.
Unlike its predecessor, the Mamba has a reliable reactor and is not dogged by technical problems. It is however, still relatively untested, as the unit is still quite new.

The cost per vessel is $2 billion
As this is already in service, we will provide 55 vessels and production rights for the contract price of $160 billion.


*This denotes stats that are classified, and are OOC information only. Only those with the vessels will have all this information IC.

Wow, this thread has grown...

I'll answer some questions and point some things out.

1. Your entry must be a sub that is not yet in service, as in it's a new design that no one else has used.

2. Your design must be original.

Great Mateo, your Manta sub interests me, but it is already being tested by the US, it must be an original design. If you can think of a design SIMILAR to it, but still with unique characteristics. I may award you a smaller contract.

Doujin, as CSJ (Battletech fan :)) pointed out, the sub has to get in pretty close to use it's supercativating torpedos, and it needs to be fast to get out. This sub should not be a disposable, but an Attack Sub.

CSJ, you said that your design is relatively new, how many nations are using it. Pictures?

Wow, this thread has grown...

I'll answer some questions and point some things out.

1. Your entry must be a sub that is not yet in service, as in it's a new design that no one else has used.

2. Your design must be original.

Great Mateo, your Manta sub interests me, but it is already being tested by the US, it must be an original design. If you can think of a design SIMILAR to it, but still with unique characteristics. I may award you a smaller contract.

Doujin, as CSJ (Battletech fan :)) pointed out, the sub has to get in pretty close to use it's supercativating torpedos, and it needs to be fast to get out. This sub should not be a disposable, but an Attack Sub.

CSJ, you said that your design is relatively new, how many nations are using it. Pictures?

Wow, this thread has grown...

I'll answer some questions and point some things out.

1. Your entry must be a sub that is not yet in service, as in it's a new design that no one else has used.

2. Your design must be original.

Great Mateo, your Manta sub interests me, but it is already being tested by the US, it must be an original design. If you can think of a design SIMILAR to it, but still with unique characteristics. I may award you a smaller contract.

Doujin, as CSJ (Battletech fan :)) pointed out, the sub has to get in pretty close to use it's supercativating torpedos, and it needs to be fast to get out. This sub should not be a disposable, but an Attack Sub.

CSJ, you said that your design is relatively new, how many nations are using it. Pictures?

Hm. We could use one of our new reactor designs.. sea trials on our Nautilus Class has pushed her to over 45 knots. 48.1 at flank speed. We could use that reactor.. If you wish to use Titanium, we could also acompany with that as well.. we would just like to point out that is costly.

2. Your design must be original.

Great Mateo, your Manta sub interests me, but it is already being tested by the US, it must be an original design. If you can think of a design SIMILAR to it, but still with unique characteristics. I may award you a smaller contract.



Sorry, but you're misinformed on the subject. What the US Navy is developing is a series of small, unarmed craft, no more than a few yards long or wide, that can be pre-programmed to carry out a mission or can be remote controlled.

My design is a full fledged attack mini-sub, crewed by 3 men, I just used the picture Popular Science used in their magazine article about the Navy's unmanned sub.

CSJ, you said that your design is relatively new, how many nations are using it. Pictures?
It's quite new. There are a handful in service with Omz222, and a moderate number in CSJ. The only other nation with real access to them is Ferrussia, which I don't recall having acquired any.

Pics:
Picture 1 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/alfa-DNSC8704339.JPG)
Picture 2 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/alfa-DNST8401648.JPG)
Picture 3 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/705-line.gif)

Sorry about all the posts.

CSJ, Interesting, is there any way I can get a full description?

Great Mateo, your mini sub is an appealing concept, if I can get some more information I may award you a smaller contract.

Doujin, cost does not bother me... Do you have any design as of yet?

IDF, Designs?

working on a pic right now in doga :P

Sorry about all the posts.

CSJ, Interesting, is there any way I can get a full description?
I've already given a pretty complete description. If there's something specific you want to know, you can ask, but that's all I've put together as of yet. I'd of thought that's enough.

Only things I can think of are detection ranges (very subjective, which is why I don't bother with them in most cases), and maximum length of weapons (9m).

Sorry about all the posts.

CSJ, Interesting, is there any way I can get a full description?
I've already given a pretty complete description. If there's something specific you want to know, you can ask, but that's all I've put together as of yet. I'd of thought that's enough.

Only things I can think of are detection ranges (very subjective, which is why I don't bother with them in most cases), and maximum length of weapons (9m).

CSJ, lol, you know you already supply most of my ground units, why not make a full monoply of my military. :wink:

Both yours and Great Mateo's minisub interests me, if it's not too much to ask could you have a Manta launch from your sub. If you can configure it to shoot out 1 minisub I'll award you the contract, along with extra money for subs.

Great Mateo will be awarded a contract of 70 billion, plus money for the subs themselves.

IDF, the Attack Sub position has been filled, however, I keep two subs in my Carrier Battle Groups and I'm looking for a replacement for the Los Angeles Class.

Should you come out with a Sub built to defend a Carrier I'll award you a contract with the same amount as Great Mateo's.

CSJ, your sub lacks TLAMs, and it has too few torpedoes.

I hate AIP systems. They can last for days, but only at a speed of below 5 knots, if you have to run to avoid a torp, you will drain your power cells and have to use the diesel-electric engines which are loud. A reworked Liquid metal nuclear reactor would be good. The earlier ones failed because they are Russian, if we go by Russian designs, we ought to not even have subs. They have a disasterous record. Lets look at their first SSBN, K-19 she had not just the 1st accident, but a 2nd reactor problem killing 3 times as many crew men as the 1st incident portrayed in the movie. If we design the LM reactor, it would be better.

The 45 knots isn't cruising speed, but used for emergencies like outrunning torpedoes. I recommend everyone read Red Storm Rising, I think page 600 or something around there in paperback. You can see a tactical with a Alfa class sub using speed to kill 2 688 class subs and outrun torpedoes launched at her.

lol Shinoxia. Of course, in the past RL month alone I've become the sole supplier to at least 5 additional militaries, so what's the big deal about adding another?

For the Manta, I could design a ship for it, but it would likely be a bit slower (maybe 44 knots tops, probably less). The Mamba is too small to add that vessel without cutting out essential equipment. Also, there's little gain from doing that, as one thing that will have to go is some of the torpedo tubes and magazine space. Besides, the Manta has a combat radius of 100 miles and is fast enough on its own. There's no need to deploy it on a sub like the Mamba. A modified large SSN, SSBN, SSGN, or a specialized vessel with similar specs would be better.


IDF
As I mentioned, the speed used for calculating submerged range on AIP (and any other nonnuclear) subs is 3 knots. That's considered minimum steerageway on surface ships.

As for my sub, it's small. A small sub with a powerful reactor is more efficient, and can thus go faster. It would be quite difficult to get that kind of speed on a larger boat. It would also increase cost a great deal. Titanium isn't easy to work with you know.
True, the submarine doesn't carry Tomahawk VLS. Of course, no small submarines carry such missiles, as they're a bit more specialized. There are other submarines for the land attack mission. As for torpedoes, that's not a bad load (you obviously don't know how many ships carry). Citing lack of torpedoes and missiles as a weakness is a very poor excuse for knocking down this design, especially compared to contemporaries
.
But lets compare it to other vessels:
Virginia: 50 weapons (12 Tomahawk VLS, 38 torpedo tube launched)*
Seawolf: 50 weapons (50 torpedo tube launched)*
Los Angelas (base): 22 weapons (torpedo tube launched)*
Los Angelas (Tomahawk): 34 weapons (12 Tomahawk VLS, 22 torpedo tube launched)**
Yasen (Severodvinsk): 32 weapons (8 SSM VLS, 24 torpedo tube launched)*
Bars/Shchulka-B (Akula): 40 weapons (torpedo tube launched)*
Shchulka (Victor): 18 weapons (torpedo tube launched)*
Astute: 34 weapons (torpedo tube launched)*
Trafalgar: 30 weapons (torpedo tube launched)*
Amethyste: 14 weapons (torpedo tube launched)*

My sub is smaller than all of these, with the exception of the French Amethyste, which is actually the size of a larger AIP/DE submarine. In fact, many of these have over twice the displacement. You'll also notice that almost all attack subs do not have VLS. Of course, you're probably unaware of the fact that the Tomahawk can be launched out of a 21" torpedo tube.

*This includes torpedoes, cruise missiles, and mines, though the latter can be up to twice as numerous in some types. In general, the standard load for most vessels is 18-24 torpedoes, with the rest in missiles and/or mines.
**Last I checked, about 3/5 of the fleet was modified with VLS. The rest just get the torpedo tubes.

CSJ, I know the problem here, you think when I say Alfa I want a small sub. I want a sub that is about the size of Seawolf (means up to 9,000 tones displaced submerged). I mention Alfa not as a size parameter, but as an idea to incorportate automation systems, liquid metal reactors, and possible titanium hulls, which I know are expensive, but have to be considered.

For the Manta, I could design a ship for it, but it would likely be a bit slower (maybe 44 knots tops, probably less).


I already sell modified SeaWolf and Ohio class subs that can hold it.

For the Manta, I could design a ship for it, but it would likely be a bit slower (maybe 44 knots tops, probably less).


I already sell modified SeaWolf and Ohio class subs that can hold it.

CSJ, I see your point about not using the Manta in the Mamba and it seems to be a smart move. Very well, I award you the contract, I require 50 Mamba Subs, name your price.

Great Mateo, let me see these Ohio Class Subs that can fire a Manta minisub and then we'll talk.

IDF, I still need a replacement for my Carrier Battle Groups, interested?

The nation of Wazican is very interested in this new challenge that our neighbor has issued, and we would like to purchase 25 upon completion for similiar purposes. We will also kick-in for the developmental costs.

For the Manta, I could design a ship for it, but it would likely be a bit slower (maybe 44 knots tops, probably less).


I already sell modified SeaWolf and Ohio class subs that can hold it.

CSJ, I see your point about not using the Manta in the Mamba and it seems to be a smart move. Very well, I award you the contract, I require 50 Mamba Subs, name your price.

Great Mateo, let me see these Ohio Class Subs that can fire a Manta minisub and then we'll talk.

IDF, I still need a replacement for my Carrier Battle Groups, interested?
50 Mamba class SSNs will cost $100 billion
For a domestic production license, we would accept it at an additional $15 billion. If you're willing to pay the additional $45 billion in the original contract, we'll also provide 1800 Mk.71 high-speed torpedoes. 300 UGM-286 NASM missiles with Mk.66 lightweight torpedoes, and 300 UGM-371B Shinma missiles, as well as production contracts for those weapons.

Information on the torpedoes and NASMs can be found here (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2490359#2490359).

Information on the Shinma (note that only the heavy B variant is being provided) can be found here (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2115324#2115324).