NationStates Jolt Archive

Jim climbed into the cockpit of his F-15 and waited for the clear to take-off. Today he would try out a new piece of kit for real but he new it would work, all he had was extra fuel tanks and 1 ALMV. Hagen Space command had pin-pointed the location of the Credonian ICBM satellite by its launch. Jim finally arrived at the launch area and slamed the controll stick back, forcing the plane verticly up. The computer made minute adjustments and the rocket was realeased

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/images/mhv-asat-launch2.jpg

The rocket sped on its way to the satellite, it was almost certain to hit

do you know how hard that is?

do you know how hard that is?

do you know how hard that is?

post the coordinates and orbital perameters and i'll acknowledge the hit (all of the info is there on the pics i posted)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/almv.htm

Our Orbital Intelligence Facility monitors all satellites in space. The size of the Credonian sattelite made it very easy to find

give me coordinates and the size of the orbit (***.** km x ***.** km)

give me coordinates and the size of the orbit (***.** km x ***.** km)
isn't that slightly unfair Cred? you never stated where your ICBM is...

dont need to, the pictures make up for me not stating it

You can lock your missiles on heat, radiation, röntgen or whatever kind of sources. Coordinates are pointless in this situation.

As far as i can tell the stations inclanation from the equator is 34.04 degrees
Apd = 0.187
Ped =-1.492

TAG

Wouldn't it be rather difficult to shoot down a satellite with an F-15? Surely you can't get the height to get a missile lock? And without a missile lock, keeping in mind that the satellite is moving, you wouldn't be able to hit it.

Cousin Eddie: Read the link rpovided it tells you how it is acheived

Y'know, it's times like this I'm glad I chose the SDI weapon I did...

bump for ol' credys response

bump for ol' credys response

OOC: It's not impossible to do, but it is pretty hard... meanwhile I think that Credonia should start being a little more realistic about the information he is demanding.

Firstly, working out where it is currently is pointless... afterall, it's constantly moving in a set orbit. You want to work out where it's going to be. This isn't too hard for a reasonably up to date nation... computers and verious technologies should give you a fairly good idea of where it's going to be.

That said... you can work out where it's going to be but even then the chances of hitting it can be pretty slim, the mathematics are hell in space and your missile would have to be very accurate and lucky to hit it...

But I'm no expert, so for the real good information about this stuff read this very good thread by The Evil Overlord, he's very good with this sort of thing and this will tell you everything you need to know (both sides)

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=68977&highlight=

Personally for the sake of RP I would allow the thing to be hit because it's a unprevoked strike at Credonia... that station with worth multi-billions and Huzen Hagen damaged it without warning or anything...

For once it would be a good reason to retaliate, it's a good reason for your allies to jump in and this time there will be no doubt, Huzen Hagen would be the aggressor and Credonia would have the moral high ground...

OOC: Credonia would have the moral high ground...

OOC: Not necessarily. Huzen Hagen could make a good case that he was stoping proliferation and trying to protect others from Credonia's use of such a nuclear first strike capability.

Tag for future reference

OOC: he doesnt have proof that i was going to use it as a first strike weapon, let alone at all.

IC:
Credonia is appaled at this unprovoked attack upon Credonian property. This weapon presented no clear danger to them or anyone else, as it was CLEARLY stated that it would be used as a defensive weapon only. No WMD in the history of Credonia have ever been used in a OFFENSIVE first strike manner, and such would not be the case now. The Credonian government DEMANDS payment of $5 billion to cover the loss of hardware and a PUBLIC apology. If you refuse, Credonia will consider the attack as a declaration and act of war, requiring a full retalitory attack upon your nation. (You cant afford to be invaded by another country and its allies. You may be able to face up to Trailers, but you will most surely fall if Credonia gets involved.

OOC: he doesnt have proof that i was going to use it as a first strike weapon, let alone at all.

IC:
Credonia is appaled at this unprovoked attack upon Credonian property. This weapon presented no clear danger to them or anyone else, as it was CLEARLY stated that it would be used as a defensive weapon only. No WMD in the history of Credonia have ever been used in a OFFENSIVE first strike manner, and such would not be the case now. The Credonian government DEMANDS payment of $5 billion to cover the loss of hardware and a PUBLIC apology. If you refuse, Credonia will consider the attack as a declaration and act of war, requiring a full retalitory attack upon your nation. (You cant afford to be invaded by another country and its allies. You may be able to face up to Trailers, but you will most surely fall if Credonia gets involved.

OOC: he doesnt have proof that i was going to use it as a first strike weapon, let alone at all.

IC:
Credonia is appaled at this unprovoked attack upon Credonian property. This weapon presented no clear danger to them or anyone else, as it was CLEARLY stated that it would be used as a defensive weapon only. No WMD in the history of Credonia have ever been used in a OFFENSIVE first strike manner, and such would not be the case now. The Credonian government DEMANDS payment of $5 billion to cover the loss of hardware and a PUBLIC apology. If you refuse, Credonia will consider the attack as a declaration and act of war, requiring a full retalitory attack upon your nation. (You cant afford to be invaded by another country and its allies. You may be able to face up to Trailers, but you will most surely fall if Credonia gets involved.

OOC: Not necessarily. Huzen Hagen could make a good case that he was stoping proliferation and trying to protect others from Credonia's use of such a nuclear first strike capability.

OOC: No warning or diplomacy was involved... personally Iuthia doesn't keep nuclear weapons in space, but alot of nations do have orbital strike platforms... the very least they could do was to give Credonia the chance to remove the weapons before hand.

If I had a orbital strike platform I would be thinking "Well what if they do that to my platform"...

Personally Iuthia is against nuclear proliferation and I have warned Credonia about Iuthia's method of dealing with it... however I don't, without warning, blow the hell out of someone's satalite.

Diplomacy exists for a reason... you use it before you do actions that can start wars...

Nuclear Weapons or not you don't attack without warning... it makes other nations nervous that you may do the same to them, without warning...

OOC: Do as Credonia says. Your time for vengeance will come later.

edit due to stupid double post.

He he he fire!!! he he FIRE!!!

Cool pic. Where can I get a pilot like that? :-)

Xha'dam has issued the following warning to Huzen Hagen

Xha'dam hereby makes an official condemnation of this unprovoked attack on the Credonian platform. We also find it highly ironic that they would accuse Credonia of warcrimes while making unprovoked aggressive moves of their own.

Further, Xha'dam has issued the following warning to Huzen Hagen. If you attempt to fire on our orbital defense network, or for that matter, anyone else, either the GOD (Global Oribital Defense) or the SkyShield ABMS satelites, our network will fire back. We have had enough of your warmongering and will not tolerate any aggressive moves against Xha'dam.

Future models of our satelites will also be equiped with systems to prevent themselves from being shot down. Consider this to be your only warning.

Minister of Foreign Affairs Shiv'kala, Dominion of Xha'dam.

Future models of our satelites will also be equiped with systems to prevent themselves from being shot down.

OOC: And what kind of systems do you plan to add?

Also Iuthia, while I feel that HH should have requested that Credonia take down the nukes, he didn't. He still had a legal reason for wanting the platform gone. His nation felt threatened (and who wouldn't when it comes to large numbers of nuclear weapons), he reacted to try and get rid of the threat to his people. He should have used diplomacy, but do you really think it would have worked?

OOC: Mundane stuff. CHAFF, flares, the usual defensive measures.

[tag]

OOC: And what kind of systems do you plan to add?

Also Iuthia, while I feel that HH should have requested that Credonia take down the nukes, he didn't. He still had a legal reason for wanting the platform gone. His nation felt threatened (and who wouldn't when it comes to large numbers of nuclear weapons), he reacted to try and get rid of the threat to his people. He should have used diplomacy, but do you really think it would have worked?

OOC: It's a fair point, but he should have tried...

Eitherway we should see instead of talking about it OOC... anyways, I'm sure something will work out in the end, or they will just argue about it (no war! :) ) .

OOC: OH NO, something is GOING to be done, whether it be them paying for our loss, or us invading them. Either way, something WILL be done about this and it will be taken care of in a most speedy fashion.

It has come to my attention that Zwaza's ally, the Holy Empire of Huzen Hagen, has delivered the first strike upon the Imperialist nationstate that is Credonia. Zwaza has always believed in diplomacy before action, but under the possibilities of abuse shall abstain from calling up War Crime charges upon the figureheads of Huzen Hagen. If this is to escalate into a war, Zwaza gives a formal plea to Credonia to not invade the regional power that is the Fallen System. I request that a conference should be held between the nations of Credonia and Huzen Hagen within a neutral third nationstate.

Princess Leila Sennite
Zwazan Monarchy

IC: You claim that this is not a first strike weapon, then why is it nesscary for it to be in space? You boast that by the time a nation would have detected a launch, it would have been hit. Space also mean that you buclear weapons travels above the land of thousands of nations that could be hit. Would you accept me flying B-52's with nukes over your airspace? I think not. This always was a first strike weapon as are any orbital weapons platforms. Let this be a warning to all you large nations, space is not a safe haven, even a small nation could take out the pride of your nation. At the moment we are considering credonias propsal and you will have an answer shortly

OOC: This thread has been TAGGED courtiesy of the National Intelligence Agency

This thread has been tagged by Moontian's defence intelligence office; and our SBL platforms have been ordered to protect the SBR array. Each SBR platform is armed with 150 missiles, though none are nuclear in Earth orbit.

James deGritz was sitting in his office when the news came, like always he was sitting down reading the latest intelligence reports from the situation in Wolfish when a polite knock rattled his door.

"Come in Officer Willis" he asked, slowly putting down the folder, closing it as the young officer walked in through the door.

"Sir, there is a situation brewing between Credonia and Huzen Hagen" He looked concerned, but not worried as it wasn't their situation. "Huen Hagen has destroyed Credonia's orbital platform...

"Ah... how long do you think it will be before you can give me a detailed report on the situation?" James didn't want to rush this, otherwise things may get worse before they got better.

"Maybe an hour, mostly it's just threats for the time being."

"Very well Willis, you may go, I'll be down in half an hour." The young officer ran off to report to the others and organise what he could.

James sighed... awhile ago he didn't bother things like this, but alot of nation he has good relations with may get damaged if this got nasty and he wan't to keep things simple, he wasn't getting any younger.

-------------------

[An official statement from Iuthia in responce to Huzen Hagen's aggression.]

Fellow nations, while we have no love for Credonia's policy of nuclear weapons program and strategic defence satalite, we do feel that it is important to remember that both of these are tools of defence.

As of yet we haven't seen a single case of Credonia using these weapons, nor have we seen anything to suggest that Credonia would use these weapons in anything more then in reply to a nuclear attack against themselves...

Of course, should Credonia ever use these weapons without very good reason we will make damn sure that he is completely de-clawed and his military halfed... but we doubt that will ever be required of us... Credonia may not be very good at handling terrorist situations, but they aren't stupid.


Which brings me on to the reason I'm here. To utterly condemn the aggression shown today by the leadership of Huzen Hagen. We are aware that many threats have been thrown around at one anothers allies... but to react without warning in such a way is not only dangerous to those in the path of the damaged satalite... but to the entire international community.

Were it not for Credonia's limited patience this could be easily interpreted as a declaration of war, only without the actual declaration...

The reasoning is ludicrous... many, many nations have orbital weapon platforms and it is clear that Credonia would not be able to use such a platform without turning the majority of the international community against them.

So we implore you to answer to Credonia's demands... there is a correct way to deal with a nation, and a incorrect way. So far you have taken the incorrect way and we don't see much of a future in a nation that doesn't understand the inherant dangers of their actions.


Please, think it over... war is so costly on everyone involved.

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Lord General deGritz, leader of the Iuthian people.
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Cease your warmongering Cred. He should have used diplomacy first but would you really have removed them from orbit? I somehow doubt it. If HH wouldn't have shot them down I would have done it. I think no one likes orbital weapon platforms flying over every nation.

Then consider the warning I extended to him also extended to you, fire on my satelite network, it fires back.

And btw, they aren't armed with anything but nukes.

If your network hasn't been destroyed then you can fire back, yes.

If your network hasn't been destroyed then you can fire back, yes.

The odds of you being able to destroy the entire network are very slim (read: non-existant) considering most of the satelites are anti-ballistic missile SkyShields. Furthermore, I don't have to wait until your missiles hit my satelites to have them fire.

-<DOUBLE POST>-

The odds of you surviving a full scale chemical/biological attack is also very slim (read: non existant) Before you can take out the missiles a few hundred already killed most of your citizens. Don't try anything stupid now! (in other words: go take a hike)

Cease your warmongering Cred. He should have used diplomacy first but would you really have removed them from orbit? I somehow doubt it. If HH wouldn't have shot them down I would have done it. I think no one likes orbital weapon platforms flying over every nation.


Hm... no, I don't like them but alot of nations have them. If you start destroying satalites because you don't like them people will get angery...

Credonia's reaction is highly justified, if not a slight over reaction. Politically I support his demands, afterall, if something blew a hole in your missile silos wouldn't you want to start a war?

Clearly you do not understand the danger of attacking someone's equipment in such a manner. The aggression came from Huzen Hagen and it's clear they are in the wrong... they made no attempt to seak diplomacy, they didn't warn Credonia that they were going to destroy a multi-billion dollar piece of equipment which could land on my nation for all I know...

I may go as far as to say I completely support Credonia in this matter. I don't like nukes in space, but this attack shows that Huzen Hagen is willing to attack without following diplomacy, without warning and without remorse... they are a danger. Unless they quickly apologise they will remain a danger.

It's that simple.

Meanwhile Holy Panooly, I would suggest you encourage your ally to take vengance in a more reasonable way. If they give in to demands they can bide their time and try again... but this way will only unite more nations behind Credonia which isn't in your interest.


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Lord General deGritz, leader of the Iuthian people.
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I know he should have used diplomacy but you have read Cred's other mega nuke building project and I think that's why HH did someone overreacted but NOT stupid in any way. He felt threatened like many other nations. He should have tried to talk to Cred but I do think it wouldn't have made any diffirence. This still doesn't approve the destruction of the platform though.

The odds of you surviving a full scale chemical/biological attack is also very slim (read: non existant) Before you can take out the missiles a few hundred already killed most of your citizens. Don't try anything stupid now! (in other words: go take a hike)

First, you aren't even going to be able to hit me with a full scale Chem/Bio attack. There's a reason why a full quarter of Xha'dams military budget is invested in our ABMS and it's annoying wannabe nations like yourself. Fire a salvo if you like at us but it isn't getting through. SkyShield and Earthshield, as well as the assorted other defenses of the Allied States of EuroIslanders would make short work of any missile volley you sent our way.

Second, an unprovoked WMD against my civilain population will result in us carpet nuking you out of existance. If I have to dump my entire nuclear arsenal on your country, I will.

Thirdy, the one beign stupid is you. You have so far managed to offend multiple nations who alone could wipe out you and your region and many others who could at least take half your region by themselves. Once again I suggest you back down before something unfortunate happens to you.

The odds of you surviving a full scale chemical/biological attack is also very slim (read: non existant) Before you can take out the missiles a few hundred already killed most of your citizens. Don't try anything stupid now! (in other words: go take a hike)
LOTS OF BLAH BLAH FROM AN IGNORANT NATION

ignored.

You're ignoring me simply marks you as a poor roleplayer considering I said nothing unreasonable. I simply stated some facts about the way I run my nation. We have invested trillions in our ABMS. We do belong to an active region which contains other nations equiped with other ABMS systems. If you use WMDS on us, we will use them back. And you have offended nations who could crush you without a second thought. If you want to ignore me, go ahead, because in the end, it only makes you look bad, child.

OOC: Children please...

> Holy Panooly: Your ignore is unjustified... it's up to you to ignore anyone you want but if you ignore everyone who argues with you, you will run out of people to play with. It also looks bad.

> Xhadam: Stop flaming... I know he can be anoying but it doesn't look good if you mock him. Try and be a little more tolerant and you will soon find people agreeing with you.

I'm just ignoring him because I don't want to be bothered with a "I can nuke you before you can do anything" kind of discussion. Try to accept that no protection is water tight.

OOC: Well, up until the recent post, I had been doing some political "haming", that is how politicians often add subtle or sometimes not too subtle insults to their speeches for the voters amusement around elections or their people's asmusement during times of war. It wasn't intended to be personal, only political rhetoric to add flavor to my posts.

The insults in the last one I'll admit were overreaction on my part and I appologize for it, especially since it was an OOC post.

I'm just ignoring him because I don't want to be bothered with a "I can nuke you before you can do anything" kind of discussion. Try to accept that no protection is water tight.

OOC: Well I *could* but I wouldn't unprovoked. Having a large number of space based nukes allows me this. I also don't see why you are under the impression that I have to wait until the missiles impact my satelites before I can do anything. I never said it was water tight but the leader of a country wouldn't publically admit to any gaps in their system anyway. Remember, alot of this prewar stuff is simply posturing and it should be treated as such. Just because the leader of a country says their system is perfect doesn't mean it is. It's all about image.

OOC: It wasn't intended to be personal, only political rhetoric to add flavor to my posts.

OOC: I do it all the time, but the difference is the last one was more about the player the the nation... not that it matters nows, you admit you went a little too far and it's more then most nations will do when they insult someone.

Meanwhile I agree that no system is water-tight, but it can be pretty good. Like I said, at best 99% success rate if you have very very good defence systems... there is always a chance something won't work, the vacinations are out of date in a area, the gasmasks don't work, the airconditioning is broke... it's inevitable if the attack is big enough.

To warn Credonia of our attack would be an act of unparralled stupidity. His increasing of his land based nuclear arsenal is justified, his proliferation in space is not. To put missiles in sapce is an agressive manouver. Credonia has used WMD's without just provocation in the past, he attacked HP in reatliation of a conventional attack. As for other nations with satellites, i would attack them if they were a direct threat to me or my allys (I will supply this tech to any nation who feels threatened). They also have not declared there existance but in the case of Xhadam you would know your satellites were being attacked by their disapearence.

After the liquification of 230,000 imperialist troops 20 miles from the Bisonic capitol courtesy of 1 kiloton nuke, the Bisonic military has been getting quite bored. Incidentally, we also maintain nukes in space, and take this as a direct threat to our national sovereignity. The Bisonic military will soon commence large strikes on Huzen Hagen, perhaps they will learn a lesson. We demand that the degenerates in Huzen Hagen stand down and apologize if they wish to avoid a war with Iron Blood.
Secret IC:
40 Taganrog class submarines are moving within range of Huzen hagen.

Very well then. We shall have to add Huzen Hagen to the Iuthian Black List and all trade between our nations will be halted.* Our allies will be advised that your nation is dangerous and unwilling to listen to reason.

I find your condemnation of space based nuclear missiles somewhat puzzling seeing as you clearly don't mind land based nuclear missiles... just because they are in space doesn't mean that anti-missile defences won't work... in fact, I don't really see what the fuss is about.

You seem to misunderstand me about warning them. You could have used diplomacy to point out that if they didn't reduce their space arsenal you would do so... but instead you didn't bother. Risking retaliation from their land based arsenal. It's like destroying a nuclear submarine... they could have assumed you were preparing to nuke them and thus destroying their nuclear weapons to get the upper hand.

It only further proves your nation is a danger to others.

Whats more your logic is stupid... in order to try and protect your nation from a nuclear attack, you destroy (without warning, diplomacy or anything) another nations satalite and provoke war in order to secure your nation from attack.

So now I suggest you pay up and apologise... otherwise that safety you want will be replaced by a large war, one in which you do not have the moral high ground.


http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/iuthia.jpg

Lord General deGritz, leader of the Iuthian people.
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* OOC: There probably wasn't any trade between our nations but it has to be said it's part of the black listing.

We are already about to be invaded by large nations, the logic of my attack is that orbital weapons mean that any nation would have far less warning of an attack. Missiles would also effectivly apear within a nation instead of traveling over the borders. Maybe i should have tried diplomacy but my closest ally HP was under attack with WMD's and i had every reason to belive that this satellite would have been deployed. As for iron blood, our teather is wearing thin. You push us too far into the corner and we will come back at you like nothing you have seen before. Costal defences are being preped for the inpending attack of trailers, Merlin helos now regularly patroll our waters

OH PLEASE. The so called "war" with me and HP is merely a Cold War. No massive mobilizations have been made in days, nor have invasion threats been issued by either party. To even insist that we would use them in a COLD WAR is ludacris. Like Ith. said, we have NEVER used ANY of our missiles for an OFFENSIVE action. Only defensive, in retaliation to an attack done upon us. You are seriously discrediting yourself. You have 24 hours to pay up and apologize or military actions WILL be taken upon you, and mark my words, we wont be as forgiving as we have with any other nation we've gone to war with.

Very well. The Bisonic military has been ordered to commence Operation Steel Rain.

40 taganrog class SSNs have fired a total of 320 SS-N-24 Scorpion cruise missiles at military installations inside HH (conventional 500kg warhead rather than nukes). Flying at mach 5, they should evade most defenses (they have a range of 4000km/2500 miles).

A swarm of Bisonic bombers, escorted by fighters and AWACS (refuelers are obviously being used as well) is flying to within 3000km (1800 miles) of Huzen Hagen to further punish this rogue state. If the government of HH does not stand down after that, we shall invade and forcefully remove it.

We are already about to be invaded by large nations, the logic of my attack is that orbital weapons mean that any nation would have far less warning of an attack.

So you show him the error of his ways by attacking without warning? If you are capable of finding and damaging such a target then surely you can watch it and detect it firing. Most ICBM's can be fired very quickly so you would have chance to respond well before they hit... meanwhile anti-ICBM systems are still affective against this form of attack.

You didn't need to destroy this satalite, the action has put your nation at serious danger and while you can blame Credonia and company all you like I doubt that you are going to explain to your people that it was justified and that your attack justifies the huge losses your people will take if you do not apologise...

Nation pride is one thing... but you are prepared to have your nation go into a serious war which you pretty much started because Credonia may fire at you...

It didn't occur to you at all that alot of nations would be seriously pissed off with Credonia had he used his satalite? I can assure you that had he used this satalite without someone nuking him first that many nations, including Iuthia would have made a point of dis-arming him for it...

The way I see it you have two choice:

1. You pay up and apologise. This is what he has asked for and he wouldn't be allowed to do anything more afterwards unless he wants to fight my forces as well.

2. You don't pay up and have to fight against both him and Trailers as well as all of Credonia allies who will want a peice of the action. The Trailers situation can be handled because it seems that he is the agressor. However in this case you are the agressor and many people will understand why Credonia feels me must go to war.

It's simple... forget national pride.


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Lord General deGritz, leader of the Iuthian people.
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double post

Iron Blood start a new thread. You are also godmodding, you did not rp your entering my waters which are being patrolled by the most sophistcated ASW helos in existance.

OOC:
I posted moving em in on the previous page. If youre illiterate not my problem.

Also they are far enough from shore not to be bothered by ASW helos.

After much deliberation we have decided tp reimburse Credonia for the cost of their satellite, with hindsite we should have tried diplomacy but then we belived there was a real threat as did many other nations.

and your public apology?

[quick tag]