NationStates Jolt Archive

The Whittier Convention on the Execution of War and the Treatment of Prisoners of War.

Whittier drafts this treaty with the purpose of:
1. Preventing unnecessary suffering.
2. Encourage reciprocity.
3. Facilitate a quicker restoration of peace for all conflicts.
4. Foster high discipline and moral among national troops.
5. To distinguish between combatants and noncombatants.
6. To prevent people from going psycho when they leave the armed forces of Whittier, and going killing sprees.

All military attacks must have a military necessity. The commanders choosing the target must have a legitimate reason for attacking that target.
Commanders are directly responsible to the international community for preventing unnecessary suffering, and ensuring return fire is proportional.
Commanders and soldiers of all nations must avoid incidental injury and collataral damage and excessive suffering.
Units may not discriminate in treatment of civilians or POWs.
Any civilian who is passive is a noncombatant. Any civilian that picks up a weapon and starts firing it at troops becomes a combatant.

All nations engaged in war must have:
A responsible command structure.
Fixed recognizable signs (identifying them) that are recognizable at a distance.
All troops of nations signing this agreement are required to carry their weapons openly.
All signatories are bound to abide by all provisions of this agreement.

It is unlawful, even in time of war, for troops to fire on or otherwise attempt to kill, maim or injure the following people:
Diplomats
Diplomatic staff
Staff of relief and humanitarian aid agencies.
Medical personnel
Pastors, Rabbis and other religious figures.
Passive civilians
injured soldiers
Parachutists (distinguished from Paratroopers who are combatants)-these are soldiers evacuating a plane that has been shot down or fired upon.

Regarding the treatment of POW's all signatories shall be required to:
1. Provide humanitarian treatment.
2. Medical care.
3. Food, clothing, and protective shelter.
4. Ensure respect for the persons and property of the POW's. (IE not beating them up or stealing their wallets)
5. No POWs may be forced to engage in dangerous, humiliating or war related labor. (You can't force them to build trenches for your men or fix your tanks so you can kill more of their country men.)
6. Medical experimentation on POW's is banned.
7. Interrogation via truth serum is banned.
8. All forms of physical abuse are banned.
9. All POW's have the right to adequate facilities to maintain good hygeine (they must be allowed access to showers, toilets, and toothbrushing facilities.)
10. All POW's must be given enough food to maintain good health. (It is illegal to starve them.)

Before engaging in any attack, commanders of the offensive unit must take precautionary steps to evacuate civilians from the area. Those failing to do so, can be tried for war crimes. Special Ops or other operations necessary for speeding up the reestablishment of peace are exempted. But reasonable efforts to evacuate civilians must be taken.

The following are designated as safe zones and may not be attacked by troops of any nation signing this agreement.
1. Undefended towns, villages, or cities.
2. Buildings of religious, scientific, or artistic importance.
3. All historic monuments (you cannot attack the Alamo cause it is a historic monument)
4. Hospitals
5. Other places where the sick and injured are located.
6. Senior Centers.
7. Preschools.
If any one fires weapons from these buildings, they are no longer safe zones.
The only absolute safe zone is undefended villages, towns and cities.

The following are safe signs and no bearing them may be attacked:
The Red Cross
The Red Crescent
The Red Star of David
The Red Moon
The flag of Historicity (used to disignate historic monuments.)
Combatants in these areas shall be charged with the war crime of treachery.

All soldiers who are sniper skilled must shoot to kill. It is unlawful for them to shoot to maim. Snipers who use nonlethal weapons are exempted.
Any soldier who is not good enough to get a sharp shot shall not be prosecuted if his shot maims the enemy.
If injured soldiers continue to resist by force, they remain combatants.

All hollow round ammo is banned (cause they maim).
All dumdum and crossfiled ammo are banned.
Laser weapons are banned cause they cause unnecessary suffering.
Lasers used to shoot down missiles or sattelites are exempt.

Landmines:
It is illegal to use landmines indiscriminately.
Landmines cannot be used to take advantage of a nation which complying with provisions of this treaty and other laws of war.
All mine fields must be marked with signs. The government deploying mines shall be legally required to keep a map of where every single mine is located and shall have on file a plan for removal of the mines.
This shall not apply in Demilitarized Zones.

The following shall be considered safety signs. No person or vehicles carrying them may be attacked by signatory:
The Red Cross
The Red Crescent
The Red Star of David
The Red Lion
The Red Dragon
The blue and white shield (used to denote historic sights)

The use of chemical weapons is prohibited.
The use biological weapons is prohibited.
The retaliatory use of nuclear weapons against nations with populations less than 20 million is banned.
The use of nuclear weapons is banned except in extreme circumstances.
The retaliatory use of nuclear weapons must be approved in writing by the President of the nation launching the nukes.


The use of treachery in the theater of war (booby trapping your injured buddy to kill people of the opposing nationality, or hiding behind the white flag of surrender then opening fire when the enemy gets right up to you) is banned.
The use of booby traps designed to maim, harm civilians, or sacrifice injured soldiers is banned.

The only defense allowed for war crimes is a provable alibi.
Those who obey orders from superiors to open fire on civilians or in any other way violate this treaty, shall be tried for war crimes.
All persons convicted of war crimes shall lose the protections of this treaty.
All civilians, including medical personell and religious figures, who take up arms and begin attacking soldiers with said weapons, may legally be treated as combatants cause by picking up the weapon they forfeited their noncombatant status.

The citizens of nations which have not signed this treaty shall not be protected from the abuses signed by this treaty.
This treaty shall go into effect upon ratification by ten signatory nations.

tag

Just one query:
On the pioint of permitted rounds, would you class belended metal of glaser rounds as FMJ or as JHP rounds?

Just one query:
On the pioint of permitted rounds, would you class belended metal of glaser rounds as FMJ or as JHP rounds?
Are they hollow tipped? Are they designed to shatter inside the body so as to maim for life?
If the answer to above question is yes, then this type of ammo is banned under this treaty.

They aren't hollow pointed, glaser is a normal round that is filled with small shot so that it disintegrates inside the target so as to prevent over penetration
blended metal rounds do a similar job but go through armour rather well...

Both would be banned by the spirit but neither by the letter (same applies to dumdum or cross filed rounds).

Of course you could say that only FMJ rounds are permitted but what about AP ammo? and even soem FMJ rounds are designed to injure rather than kill (5.45mm soviet beign a good example).

Anyway Crookfur would likely sign this treaty

They aren't hollow pointed, glaser is a normal round that is filled with small shot so that it disintegrates inside the target so as to prevent over penetration
blended metal rounds do a similar job but go through armour rather well...

Both would be banned by the spirit but neither by the letter (same applies to dumdum or cross filed rounds).

Of course you could say that only FMJ rounds are permitted but what about AP ammo? and even soem FMJ rounds are designed to injure rather than kill (5.45mm soviet beign a good example).

Anyway Crookfur would likely sign this treaty

Lower Egypt is eager to sign this treaty.
Our troops were unfairly tortured and maimed by the SouthPacific, Vizion, Dr. Twist etc.
We wish to have them tried for war crimes. We have proof the LE troops that were held as POW's were tortured and deprived hygienic necessities.

Lower Egypt is eager to sign this treaty.
Our troops were unfairly tortured and maimed by the SouthPacific, Vizion, Dr. Twist etc.
We wish to have them tried for war crimes. We have proof the LE troops that were held as POW's were tortured and deprived hygienic necessities.

You will never have us tried for War crimes, if anything you will be tried for war crimes.

Treaties are made to be broken

Lower Egypt is eager to sign this treaty.
Our troops were unfairly tortured and maimed by the SouthPacific, Vizion, Dr. Twist etc.
We wish to have them tried for war crimes. We have proof the LE troops that were held as POW's were tortured and deprived hygienic necessities.

You will never have us tried for War crimes, if anything you will be tried for war crimes.
We all know that none of the troops captured by either side in this conflict were tortured.
As for hygienic deprivation, if it occured, it was before this treaty went into effect.
You have no standing with which to sue under this treaty. It only applies to conflicts that occur after the treaty is signed by at least 5 nations.

They aren't hollow pointed, glaser is a normal round that is filled with small shot so that it disintegrates inside the target so as to prevent over penetration
blended metal rounds do a similar job but go through armour rather well...

Both would be banned by the spirit but neither by the letter (same applies to dumdum or cross filed rounds).

Of course you could say that only FMJ rounds are permitted but what about AP ammo? and even soem FMJ rounds are designed to injure rather than kill (5.45mm soviet beign a good example).

Anyway Crookfur would likely sign this treaty
Good point, treaty will be updated.

Lower Egypt is eager to sign this treaty.
Our troops were unfairly tortured and maimed by the SouthPacific, Vizion, Dr. Twist etc.
We wish to have them tried for war crimes. We have proof the LE troops that were held as POW's were tortured and deprived hygienic necessities.

You will never have us tried for War crimes, if anything you will be tried for war crimes.
We all know that none of the troops captured by either side in this conflict were tortured.
As for hygienic deprivation, if it occured, it was before this treaty went into effect.
You have no standing with which to sue under this treaty. It only applies to conflicts that occur after the treaty is signed by at least 5 nations.

I haven’t signed the Treaty, i am looking over it and will make a discussion soon.

Lower Egypt is eager to sign this treaty.
Our troops were unfairly tortured and maimed by the SouthPacific, Vizion, Dr. Twist etc.
We wish to have them tried for war crimes. We have proof the LE troops that were held as POW's were tortured and deprived hygienic necessities.

You will never have us tried for War crimes, if anything you will be tried for war crimes.
We all know that none of the troops captured by either side in this conflict were tortured.
As for hygienic deprivation, if it occured, it was before this treaty went into effect.
You have no standing with which to sue under this treaty. It only applies to conflicts that occur after the treaty is signed by at least 5 nations.

I haven’t signed the Treaty, i am looking over it and will make a discussion soon.
The treaty has been updated as per recommendation from Crookfur.

They aren't hollow pointed, glaser is a normal round that is filled with small shot so that it disintegrates inside the target so as to prevent over penetration
blended metal rounds do a similar job but go through armour rather well...

Both would be banned by the spirit but neither by the letter (same applies to dumdum or cross filed rounds).

Of course you could say that only FMJ rounds are permitted but what about AP ammo? and even soem FMJ rounds are designed to injure rather than kill (5.45mm soviet beign a good example).

Anyway Crookfur would likely sign this treaty
You are accepted as an signatory to the treaty.

tag

what is "tag"?

The People of Hutu scoff in your face at this 'covention' as there is nothing conventional about war, the world has been ready to kill each other off for years. There has never been anything conventional about the methods of killing or being killed either. The Hutuian Federation will continue to use its tactics that have been used for ever, decapitaition, tourture, hollow tip glass rounds, all the things that have made us the power we are. And, every nation that appears on this treaty, consider your self tagged, if we ever go to war, I will personally make sure that all things you oppose in this 'convention' will be done to your forces.

Now, excuse me while I put more funding into my land mine facilities. I also urge all my allies and all like-minded Socialist nations to not sign this, it is a tool of the rich upper-class land owning capitalist to get us to conform to their ways.

Viva La Revolution and keep holy the words of Comrade Marx.

Premier Vassily Isosef Taratin IV of Hutu

The People of Hutu scoff in your face at this 'covention' as there is nothing conventional about war, the world has been ready to kill each other off for years. There has never been anything conventional about the methods of killing or being killed either. The Hutuian Federation will continue to use its tactics that have been used for ever, decapitaition, tourture, hollow tip glass rounds, all the things that have made us the power we are. And, every nation that appears on this treaty, consider your self tagged, if we ever go to war, I will personally make sure that all things you oppose in this 'convention' will be done to your forces.

Now, excuse me while I put more funding into my land mine facilities. I also urge all my allies and all like-minded Socialist nations to not sign this, it is a tool of the rich upper-class land owning capitalist to get us to conform to their ways.

Viva La Revolution and keep holy the words of Comrade Marx.

Premier Vassily Isosef Taratin IV of Hutu
Signatory or not, if I or my allies ever go to war, you will be held repsonsible for violating the provisions of this convention.

No 1 has signed the convention meaning I and other who havn't signed don't have to follow the convention rules and laws.

No 1 has signed the convention meaning I and other who havn't signed don't have to follow the convention rules and laws.

Seems this treaty is designed to provide protections for the civilians and POW's of the signatories. The POW's of nonsignatories are not protected by the treaty. Therefore, unless a nation has signed the treaty, it is perfectly legal to torture their people and use WMD's against them.
West Moon will sign the treaty.

No 1 has signed the convention meaning I and other who havn't signed don't have to follow the convention rules and laws.

Seems this treaty is designed to provide protections for the civilians and POW's of the signatories. The POW's of nonsignatories are not protected by the treaty. Therefore, unless a nation has signed the treaty, it is perfectly legal to torture their people and use WMD's against them.
West Moon will sign the treaty.

The treaty has been updated accordingly.

This convention is satisfactory to SouthPacific.
We will sign it.

The citizens of nations which have not signed this treaty shall not be protected from the abuses signed by this treaty.

OK...

Signatory or not, if I or my allies ever go to war, you will be held repsonsible for violating the provisions of this convention.

That's retarded. You're saying that if you fight someone who hasn't signed this treaty they MUST abide by all the rules, but you don't have to? That's stupid beyond words. I can't even comprehend this, may you be neutered so that you cannot spread your genes...

We are afraid that Iuthia cannot agree to this treaty because we would prefer not to be tied down by yet another international law.

However we would like to point out that iuthia doesn't have any nuclear arsenal, we do not particularly use mines beyond the what would be concidered reasonable and we treat all POW's and prisoners well looked after because we are not monsters.

Sorry we could not argee, but we would like to finally point out that we fail to regconise any law within this treaty as it would only effect those who sign for it.

Thanks,

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/iuthia.jpg

Lord General deGritz, leader of the Iuthian people.
Urbanites (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=Urbanites)

Recent News in Iuthia (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83886&highlight=)
OOC Information on Iuthia (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=109898&highlight=)

OOC: "Tag" Means that I wanted to keep an eye on the thread so I "tagged" it so I wouldn't lose it in my post list.

As for the legality of your claims, you can't make a law and then exspect nations who have not signed for it to follow it. The reason people would like to sign for such a treaty is to encourage others to sign for it and protect your people...

Basically put, if my nation went to war with a nation that signed this treaty, they would not be permited to commit these crimes against me because they signed a treaty saying they wouldn't do it, where as I wouldn't be able to commit crimes ruled out in the treaty because I'm not part of the treaty.

Legally only the people who have signed for this treaty will agree with you... otherwise everyone will say "he didn't sign it so he hasn't commited a crime because it's not a crime for him".

Sorry, but thats how it works.

The citizens of nations which have not signed this treaty shall not be protected from the abuses signed by this treaty.

OK...

Signatory or not, if I or my allies ever go to war, you will be held repsonsible for violating the provisions of this convention.

That's retarded. You're saying that if you fight someone who hasn't signed this treaty they MUST abide by all the rules, but you don't have to? That's stupid beyond words. I can't even comprehend this, may you be neutered so that you cannot spread your genes...
Sorry, you misunderstand. We were trying to deal situations where a signatory goes to war with a nonsignatory. As Dr. Twist already stated, nonsignatories can't be held to the treaty.
It protects signatories only.
If you sign it, then the other sigs can't use WMDs on you or torture your people. But if you didn't sign it, then Whittier (for example) can use WMD's and torture your people even though it is a signatory, cause your nation never signed the treaty meaning that you don't recognize.
Basically, by not signing, nations are giving license to other states to abuse their people during times of war.

We are afraid that Iuthia cannot agree to this treaty because we would prefer not to be tied down by yet another international law.

However we would like to point out that iuthia doesn't have any nuclear arsenal, we do not particularly use mines beyond the what would be concidered reasonable and we treat all POW's and prisoners well looked after because we are not monsters.

Sorry we could not argee, but we would like to finally point out that we fail to regconise any law within this treaty as it would only effect those who sign for it.

Thanks,

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/iuthia.jpg

Lord General deGritz, leader of the Iuthian people.
Urbanites (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=Urbanites)

Recent News in Iuthia (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83886&highlight=)
OOC Information on Iuthia (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=109898&highlight=)

OOC: "Tag" Means that I wanted to keep an eye on the thread so I "tagged" it so I wouldn't lose it in my post list.


I Agree with Iuthia.....

Please reread the treaty.
It is agreement of things that the signatories won't do to each other.
It does not affect nonsignatories. Nonsignatories can neither be prosecuted nor protected by the treaty.
For nonsigners, the treaty does not exist.

You ever try to attack me Whittier with WMD or torture my people I will beat you like a red headed stepchild.

You ever try to attack me Whittier with WMD or torture my people I will beat you like a red headed stepchild.
You would lose to him. He is older and bigger than you.

You ever try to attack me Whittier with WMD or torture my people I will beat you like a red headed stepchild.
You would lose to him. He is older and bigger than you.
David versus Goliath.

Lol, nimrods:

_East Germany Gross Domestic Product
Population: 1,560,000,000
Civil Rights: Below Average
Economy: Frightening
GDP per Capita: $35,000
GDP: $54,600,000,000,000
National Budget: $23,528,232,000,000

Percentage of GDP Spent on Defense: 6.46%
Percentage of Budget Spent on Defense: 15%
Military Budget: $3,529,234,800,000

Enough for:
113,480 F-15Es, or...
176,461 Su-34s, or...
187,725 F-16s, or...
320,839 MiG 29s, or...
820,752 M1A2 Abrams, or...
1,176,411 T-90s, or...
6,022,584,982 M-16s, or...
11,764,116,000 AK47s


Whittier Gross Domestic Product
Population: 2,446,000,000
Civil Rights: Good
Economy: Good
GDP per Capita: $10,000
GDP: $24,460,000,000,000
National Budget: $5,527,862,160,000

Percentage of GDP Spent on Defense: 3.39%
Percentage of Budget Spent on Defense: 15%
Military Budget: $829,179,324,000

Enough for:
26,661 F-15Es, or...
41,458 Su-34s, or...
44,105 F-16s, or...
75,379 MiG 29s, or...
192,832 M1A2 Abrams, or...
276,393 T-90s, or...
1,414,981,781 M-16s, or...
2,763,931,080 AK47s


My military budget is 4.5x bigger than his. My military is better. Size is insignificant.

Lol, nimrods:

_East Germany Gross Domestic Product
Population: 1,560,000,000
Civil Rights: Below Average
Economy: Frightening
GDP per Capita: $35,000
GDP: $54,600,000,000,000
National Budget: $23,528,232,000,000

Percentage of GDP Spent on Defense: 6.46%
Percentage of Budget Spent on Defense: 15%
Military Budget: $3,529,234,800,000

Enough for:
113,480 F-15Es, or...
176,461 Su-34s, or...
187,725 F-16s, or...
320,839 MiG 29s, or...
820,752 M1A2 Abrams, or...
1,176,411 T-90s, or...
6,022,584,982 M-16s, or...
11,764,116,000 AK47s


Whittier Gross Domestic Product
Population: 2,446,000,000
Civil Rights: Good
Economy: Good
GDP per Capita: $10,000
GDP: $24,460,000,000,000
National Budget: $5,527,862,160,000

Percentage of GDP Spent on Defense: 3.39%
Percentage of Budget Spent on Defense: 15%
Military Budget: $829,179,324,000

Enough for:
26,661 F-15Es, or...
41,458 Su-34s, or...
44,105 F-16s, or...
75,379 MiG 29s, or...
192,832 M1A2 Abrams, or...
276,393 T-90s, or...
1,414,981,781 M-16s, or...
2,763,931,080 AK47s


My military budget is 4.5x bigger than his. My military is better. Size is insignificant.
I am confused. Are we at war?

no, just proving to your goons that I am more than well equipped to handle a war with a nation bigger than mine.

no, just proving to your goons that I am more than well equipped to handle a war with a nation bigger than mine.
Size isn't everything. China is bigger than America in RL but America could still defeat China militarily in real life.
What matters is your economic abilities, the training and moral of your military and your techonological abilities and whether you are a space exploring nation.

That's what I was telling them!

Anyway I'm going to bed.

The Holy Empire of Golden Omega will not be bound to this treaty. While we find some aspects agreeable to, there are too many problems with the treaty for us to seriously consider signing it. We are sorry to decline this treaty, but it must be done to safeguard the defense of our growing nation.

Comments (so you might improve it so I would sign it)...
Before engaging in any attack, commanders of the offensive unit must take precautionary steps to evacuate civilians from the area. Those failing to do so, can be tried for war crimes.Secret operations would become impossible.
The following are safe signs and no bearing them may be attacked:
The Red Cross
The Red Crescent
The Red Star of David
The Red Moon
The flag of Historicity (used to disignate historic monuments.)It should also be illegal for combatants to be in locations marked by these "safe signs".
All soldiers who are sniper skilled must shoot to kill. It is unlawful for them to shoot to maim.If a sniper was equipped with a tazer or other nonlethal weapon, I think he should be allowed to fire without the intention to kill.
All hollow round ammo is banned (cause they maim and don't kill)Yes, they do.
Laser weapons are banned cause they cause unnecessary suffering.I do not see how a weapon used to shoot artillery out of the sky causes unnecessary suffering.
The use of CS gas is hereby prohibited by this treaty.
The use of chemical weapons is prohibited.Banning nonlethals does not seem to be a good idea to me. I would prefer my soldiers to take enemies captive if possible.
The use ruses (inflatable tanks, planes, etc.) is banned.Decoys can be essential to the survival of the real units. Why ban them?

Comments (so you might improve it so I would sign it)...
Before engaging in any attack, commanders of the offensive unit must take precautionary steps to evacuate civilians from the area. Those failing to do so, can be tried for war crimes.Secret operations would become impossible.
The following are safe signs and no bearing them may be attacked:
The Red Cross
The Red Crescent
The Red Star of David
The Red Moon
The flag of Historicity (used to disignate historic monuments.)It should also be illegal for combatants to be in locations marked by these "safe signs".
All soldiers who are sniper skilled must shoot to kill. It is unlawful for them to shoot to maim.If a sniper was equipped with a tazer or other nonlethal weapon, I think he should be allowed to fire without the intention to kill.
All hollow round ammo is banned (cause they maim and don't kill)Yes, they do.
Laser weapons are banned cause they cause unnecessary suffering.I do not see how a weapon used to shoot artillery out of the sky causes unnecessary suffering.
The use of CS gas is hereby prohibited by this treaty.
The use of chemical weapons is prohibited.Banning nonlethals does not seem to be a good idea to me. I would prefer my soldiers to take enemies captive if possible.
The use ruses (inflatable tanks, planes, etc.) is banned.Decoys can be essential to the survival of the real units. Why ban them?
This convention is based on the RL Geneva Conventions on the Laws of War and the Treatment of POW's. And yes, Americans have to abide by them.
But I will go back and change those things you pointed out.

Convention updated and fixed according to Nianacio recommendations.
As you can see, the real life Geneva Conventions are nearly impossible for any nation to abide by.

what if i have a rabbi or priest captured and i am not of their religion?
They would have to be treated as normal civilians/combatants as the case may be

what if i have a rabbi or priest captured and i am not of their religion?
They would have to be treated as normal civilians/combatants as the case may be
thought I addressed that in the text. Will fix it.

Fixed again. Any more proposals?

bump.

How do I join this treaty?

How do I join this treaty?

I will sign this agreement.

This convention is in effect.

bump