NationStates Jolt Archive

I get the impression that many players on NS are more interested in a well RPed game than the n00b-ish "I n00k U, Ur dead, I pwn U" style experience.

Given that, I would expect spying, double-dealing, treachery, misinformation, disinformation, betrayal and so forth to be rife ... in other words 'intrigue' ... at least I'd HOPE so ... we're supposed to be RPing *nations* ... They're amongst the most immersive, engaging, realistic (not realist) and interesting experiences we can have in NS.

Telegrams, puppet nations, private agreements, etc. all add to this.

But the issue of spying is difficult to RP fairly.

So, I have a suggestion ... It may sound a bit anally, tabletop-RP-ish, but please give it a chance and think about it ... I really think it could add to the whole experience.

It's based upon the honour-system ... that is, it will only work, if we are all scrupulously honest in this regard ... but I think it could work.

Here it is ...

When we want to spy on each other, we:

A) generate a random number between 1 and 100 (D100, flip of a coin, computer-generated ... it doesn't matter as long as the spread is genuinely fair)

B) The nation doing the spying contacts the target nation, by private telegram, declaring the intention to spy and the number they have generated.

C) The nation being spied upon generates a number between 1 and 100.

D) the outcome depends upon the difference between the numbers:

THE NATION BEING SPIED UPON DETERMINES WHO HAS THE HIGHER SCORE ... Yeah, well, espionage is a dodgy business


IF THE DIFFERENCE IS IN THE FAVOUR OF THE NATION DOING THE SPYING:

1a) Difference is 76%+ ... They get to ask three questions. The nation being spied upon must answer all three questions truthfully.

1b) Difference is 51% - 75% ... They get to ask three questions. The nation being spied upon must answer two questions truthfully and may lie terribly about the third.

1c) Difference is 26% - 50% ... They get to ask three questions. The nation being spied upon must answer one question truthfully and may lie terribly about the other two.

1d) Difference is 1% to 25% ... They get to ask three questions. The nation being spied upon may choose how it answers the questions, including lying about all three. Alternatively, they may capture the spy and return no information.

IF THE DIFFERENCE IS IN THE FAVOUR OF THE BEING SPIED UPON:

2a) Difference is 76%+ ... The nation doing the spying gets to ask three questions. The nation being spied upon may choose how it answers the questions, including lying about all three. Alternatively, they may capture the spy and return no information.

2b) Difference is 26% - 50% ... The nation doing the spying gets to ask three questions. The nation being spied upon must answer one question truthfully and may lie terribly about the other two.

2c) The nation doing the spying gets to ask three questions. The nation being spied upon must answer one question truthfully and may lie terribly about the other two.

2d) Difference is 76%+ ... The nation doing the spying gets to ask three questions. The nation being spied upon must answer all three questions truthfully.


Yes, I am aware that there is a discrepancy between the number of questions asked (3) vs the number of outcomes (4), so the spread is 25%:33% in favour of the nation being spied upon ... but you'll have heard of double-agents, right?



As I said, it may sound terribly anally retentive, but it is not difficult to implement and could add to the whole RP experience ... I'm not asking people to spend their *entire* time spying on each other ... I don't want NS to degenerate into internecine warfare ... but it *is* in keeping with the international politics and diplomacy that is *supposed* to be a part of NS, and I believe that it could make the whole experience more immersive and, hence, more fun.

It would also be fairer ... any one of us can look at the latest info for government type, tax rate, etc. and calculate each other's GDP/budget ... but how much more fun would it be it have (potentially eronious) inside info on each other's plans and intrigues?


Please think about it.

It's not bad, although some players on NS will be dishonorable and it's rather complicated...I think that when someone says, "I spy on you!" and the other returns, "No you didn't!" this will work very well.

Must've took you ages to type that :P

It's not bad, although some players on NS will be dishonorable and it's rather complicated...I think that when someone says, "I spy on you!" and the other returns, "No you didn't!" this will work very well.

Must've took you ages to type that :Pgood concept. unfortunately, many in II won't bother. they'll just say "you didn't spy on me!" :?

It didn't take me half as long to type as it took me to work out the ratios, believe me.

And the problem with it is the same as any other asprct of NS ... It's *all* based upon the honour system: I can fire my I.G.N.O.R.E - canon at anyone I like ... but I'm I.G.N.O.R.I.N.G the n00bs (i.e. like-minded mentalities) and going straight for the RPers

All you have to do is generate a number between 1 an 100 and submit it with your three questions.

The recipient generates a number between 1 an 100 and and answeres your questions accordingly.

It's not difficult.

And if the recipient has any sense, then eight times out of ten they don't capture as# given spy, they give them accurate informtion ... that way the spying nation learns to trust them ... and then ... Well, the other times it's to *your* adavantage to feed them disinformation ... After all, no-one is gonna fire someone who is right 80% of the time, are they?

Personally I've always taken it the same (RP wise) as an attack against my nation, so I would incist that any spy RP like the below or I am fully within my right to say I ignore them because I dictate what happens in my nation whether you like it or not.


Such an action as to be co-operative RP in a OOC sense, you will need me to give you infomation either way so I doubt this will work without my co-operation...

You can't claim to know information... you must RP aquiring it then ask me OOC for the actual information. I will RP my people, you RP yours. Just saying you are in my nation without RPing it and letting me RP patrols is GOD-MODING because you would have ignored all my defences which isn't how your supposed to play.

Spying is done one step at a time, you attempt entery, I either tell you if you passed or failed depending on your quality of RP, you RP setting up a safe house, I tell you if you have done so... you get the idea, more then one post is ok, so long as you don't assume that you get past my people or defences...

I RP my people... I can't say that enough, I may permit you to RP the killing of some guards in your own styles of play, but you have to listen to me when I tell you how they will act, if they are not acting in character when you post them for me I will ignore it and re-write my mens actions.

All information you aquire comes from me, I will tell you if it is true or false in a OOC manner, but I may use a third person (that we both approve) and tell him if it's true or not.


This may seem unfair, but you have to remember that I will look bad if I don't RP well myself, if I decide to screw you over even though you did really well it will look terrible to others.

Ah, but you're forgetting a vital aspect ... Nobody said you couldn't tell your allies "Watch out for this nation."

<OOC>
I think it's a good concept. This way, at least they can't post a thread making wild accusations, and expect you to follow them, either making enemies for yourself, or generally making yourself look bad.
I'm surprised that you took the time to think this up. Congrats!

Oh yeah, I found this GDP calculator. It'll give accurate and randomized readings, whatever floats your boat. I based my whole nation on this, and the stickies.
http://www.esyn.org/SOTA/NationStates.html
<OOC>

If you want a place that isnt full of noobs where you have to really research stuff for nukes and can spy & assasinate ppl steal tech go to this link. http://war.coldfirestudios.com/war/ its ww2 based but ppl cant make the shit up like alot of the noobs here do. its pretty cool and stuff.

OOC:

A very good idea and while i find some of the bits a little confusing (just my slow head) i find it making a good option for specici stuff.

While others have adressed the main porblems i would put forward some thoughts of my own.

the nature of spying.
Really the issue of general info as opposed to specific info.
You nation is being spied upon , this a simply indisputable fact. Someone soemwhere has an intel gathering source pointed at your nation be it that slightly oddly behaving trawler in international waters, that bright spot in the sky or simply a big antenna somewhere. Thus it is reasonable (in my opinion) that any general info about your nation and activities will be common knowledge this included gross troop movements and mobilzations, general military comamnd/political structures, pretty much most of things about your society as a whole. This isn't really the area the proposed system would work (proabably being better classified as intelligence gahtering as opposed to espionage), it would effectively be aimed at very specific forms of information (technical specs on secret projects, the fact that the King wears womens underwear etc) or under taking specific operations (extraction of defectors, stealing of military gear/plans).


Of course you can still use this proposed and very useful option as you want these are just a few of my thoughts on the matter.

Interesting points ... particularly the one about the difference between espionage and intelligence

I'm quite surprised at the number of responses this has generated, here elswhere on the forums. I was expecting people to ignore it. Now I feel all self-conscious :oops:


I wasn't trying to suggest that this system should replace RPing. It was only meant to be an idea that people might like to nake use of when RPing espionage/intelligence. I guess if two nations want to RP it out that way they could interpret the die rolls differently ... or RP it out on the forum and use the die rolls to generate behind the scenes information exchanges (so that not every one else gets let in on the secrets when they read it)

It's up to you how you paly your games. I'm not trying to tell people how to go about it. It was just an idea.

And there are probably a lot of issues that I didn't consider at the time ... but maybe other people can hack it about a bit and improve it - I'll be only too happy to see a new and improved version generated by the NS community.


Another idea occurred to me in the meantime about how much value a nation might give to a particular piece of information. If a particular piece of information were of pressing importance, the nation doing the spying could declare this in advance and say that they wanted to spend two (or even all) of their questions on obtaining it. Of course the danger then is that the nation being spied upon might equally put two of it's rolls behind that and get to supply disinformation rather than simply misinformation

I guess it needs some work done on it before it'll be a truly robust approach, but, as I said, it was only really a simple idea to add a bit of spice to things

<ooc>I need to point this out . . . I have been at this game for a long time, this is my second nation here. I lost the first in a horrible missunderstanding with the mods. . .but thats not my point. I have been spying but through different means then ya'll talk about here.

By simpling going at things from politcal stand point and getting to know the nation you wish to spy on you can learn tons. Puppet nations are great for this. If you can work your way into the trust of the said nation there is no limit to what information you can gain. True this takes a while, but I have managed to do so under a few of my nations and it has allowed me to gain the passwords to locked regions. Information that has been used in the invading of regions. Still, you system would work as you have said all along if people were honest.