NationStates Jolt Archive

Unum Veritas and Autonomous City-States are currently in the process of developing a brand new attack submarine. This thread will be the R&D phase and another thread will be opened for actual sale of the submarine.

Very General Specs:

Western Tech
Mark-50 and Mark-48 Torpedoes
Passive and Active sonars
Towed-array sonar (maybe)
Nuclear powered
Active countermeasures
Maybe some system to keep from being hit by wire-guided torpedoes
Top speed of around 25 knots
Attempt to be as quite as an Ohio class SSBN

Any suggestions are welcome.

http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/32/92/captainjacksparrow/4/34.jpg
High Chancellor Sparrow
The Imperial Republic of Unum Veritas
Member: NAIA (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1667209#1667209)
Member: Band of Brothers (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2432224#2432224)
Owner: Unum Veritas Naval Store (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=655745#655745)

Why not design your own torpedo? And why nuclear powered? The sub I made but havn't released yet uses a DD 16V 396 diesel engine, 3.12 MW
DD(Doujin Defense) AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) system, 300 kW.

Using a nuclear powered sub you can't turn off the pumps that cool the reactor, but in diesel-electrics you can shut off the diesels and run on electric, thus reducing acoustic noise generated by the sub.

But unless I'm mistaken nuclear power is almost as quiet and has a much larger range. I read somewhere that at modern tech diesel-electric subs would have to be kept to the role of coastal patrols because of their limited radius. Also the MK-50 torpedo is pretty darn good and I'm going to have my hands full designing subs, fighters, carriers, etc without designing a new munition, although I am open to that idea at some point in the near-future.

If you want to avoid the problems with the noise generated by reactor coolant pumps, I recommend using a passively cooled fast reactor. Instead of relying on mechanical systems to provide cooling, a passively cooled reactor relies on the laws of physics to maintain safe temperatures. Another advantage of the fast reactor is that it burns the byproducts of the initial reaction as fuel (read: plutonium). This means that your fuel will go further than in a conventional reactor and radioactive waste is dramatically reduced. Incorporate advanced thermocouples like those in the newest RTGs... and you can provide nearly endless power to an electric drive system.

If you want to avoid the problems with the noise generated by reactor coolant pumps, I recommend using a passively cooled fast reactor. Instead of relying on mechanical systems to provide cooling, a passively cooled reactor relies on the laws of physics to maintain safe temperatures. Another advantage of the fast reactor is that it burns the byproducts of the initial reaction as fuel (read: plutonium). This means that your fuel will go further than in a conventional reactor and radioactive waste is dramatically reduced. Incorporate advanced thermocouples like those in the newest RTGs... and you can provide nearly endless power to an electric drive system.

Yes, I remember your sodium cooled reactor - but you misunderstand. It doesn't cool itself naturally, waht happens is if the control rods fail then the heat is absorbed by the sodium. The fuel rods expand and thus the reaction doesn't reach critical mass and go boom. That's all.

And Unum Veritas, the DD 16V 396 diesel engine, 3.12 MW; DD(Doujin Defense) AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) system, 300 kW can run for a weeks on the hydrogen fuel cell. Thus giving it a large role capability.

Yes, I remember your sodium cooled reactor - but you misunderstand. It doesn't cool itself naturally, waht happens is if the control rods fail then the heat is absorbed by the sodium. The fuel rods expand and thus the reaction doesn't reach critical mass and go boom. That's all.

And Unum Veritas, the DD 16V 396 diesel engine, 3.12 MW; DD(Doujin Defense) AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) system, 300 kW can run for a weeks on the hydrogen fuel cell. Thus giving it a large role capability.

What do you mean by, "it doesn't cool itself naturally?" That's the whole point behind a passively cooled system. I'm not sure what it is that you think I misunderstand.

Well, as is obvious, submarines are not my thing. I don't know all that much about the coming trends in them or anything like that, so feel free to educate me and correct any mistakes that I make.

ACS-would you prefer an electric propulsion drive to a nuclear plant?

Well, as is obvious, submarines are not my thing. I don't know all that much about the coming trends in them or anything like that, so feel free to educate me and correct any mistakes that I make.

ACS-would you prefer an electric propulsion drive to a nuclear plant?

Well, as is obvious, submarines are not my thing. I don't know all that much about the coming trends in them or anything like that, so feel free to educate me and correct any mistakes that I make.

ACS-would you prefer an electric propulsion drive to a nuclear plant?

Please excuse any multiple posts: grrrr forums.

Well, as is obvious, submarines are not my thing. I don't know all that much about the coming trends in them or anything like that, so feel free to educate me and correct any mistakes that I make.

ACS-would you prefer an electric propulsion drive to a nuclear plant?

I think that a passively cooled nuclear thermoelectric generator providing power to an electric drive would be ideal. Why not have the best of both worlds?

Well, as is obvious, submarines are not my thing. I don't know all that much about the coming trends in them or anything like that, so feel free to educate me and correct any mistakes that I make.

ACS-would you prefer an electric propulsion drive to a nuclear plant?

I think that a passively cooled nuclear thermoelectric generator providing power to an electric drive would be ideal. Why not have the best of both worlds?

The Integral Fast Reactor doesn't work that way. It isn't passively cooled, but it does have a passive system of shutting down the reactor if the control rods fudge up. The thing is, you can't shut off pumps in a reactor.

The Integral Fast Reactor doesn't work that way. It isn't passively cooled, but it does have a passive system of shutting down the reactor if the control rods fudge up. The thing is, you can't shut off pumps in a reactor.

There are passively-cooled fast reactors in existence, though... quit citing that one example over and over again to say it can't be done. Note that I never specifically mentioned the IFR. You're focusing on that one thing. Not me.

You show me a passivly cooled reactor. I want to see one, that doesn't require pumps of any sort to put some sort of coolant through the reactor keeping it from melting.

Speed is kinda low. IIRC, the Seawolf class does like 40+ knots...

Diesel is supposed to be quieter, I think, but it really lacks the range of nuclear subs. For attack subs, you'll probably want to be able to track targets for long distances.

I think I'll keep my Seawolf if this is all your sub has to offer :P

Speed is kinda low. IIRC, the Seawolf class does like 40+ knots...

Diesel is supposed to be quieter, I think, but it really lacks the range of nuclear subs. For attack subs, you'll probably want to be able to track targets for long distances.

I think I'll keep my Seawolf if this is all your sub has to offer :P

The Seawolf HARDLY does 40 knots.. its official speed is 25 knots, maximum submerged speed about 33-34, and it's tactical speed 20 knots. You need to get better information.

And, the AIP system I uses allows it to have weeks of operation on the hydrogen fuel cell, thus making it just as capable as a nuclear submarine on long missions.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/nuclear_science_technology/ahtr.htm

http://www3.inspi.ufl.edu/ICAPP03/program/abstracts/3214.pdf

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/designs/sbwr/gdcs.html

http://www.anl.gov/OPA/logos20-1/passive01.htm

With advances in nuclear engineering, the only reason you would maintain coolant flow is for a turbine-type system. If the reactor is instead used for an advanced thermoelectric generator, I don't think you would need to maintain coolant flow as the passive cooling systems could maintain the system safely.

The Seawolf HARDLY does 40 knots.. its official speed is 25 knots, maximum submerged speed about 33-34, and it's tactical speed 20 knots. You need to get better information.

And, the AIP system I uses allows it to have weeks of operation on the hydrogen fuel cell, thus making it just as capable as a nuclear submarine on long missions.

A nuclear submarine is only limited by the needs of its crew, though, and can travel underwater for months at a time.

AHTR cannot be used in a submarine design.

http://www.anl.gov/OPA/logos20-1/passive01.htm is not passively cooled, it just has a passive safety device. The EBR-II is an IFR design(that is basically what the AFR(advanced fast reactor) and either way, it would be difficult to install that reactor design on a submarine.

The requirements for the gravity driven cooling system makes it not effective to put in a submarine(i.e. really really hard)

And the PDF file I can't open, something wrong with Adobe Acrobat.

The Seawolf HARDLY does 40 knots.. its official speed is 25 knots, maximum submerged speed about 33-34, and it's tactical speed 20 knots. You need to get better information.

And, the AIP system I uses allows it to have weeks of operation on the hydrogen fuel cell, thus making it just as capable as a nuclear submarine on long missions.

A nuclear submarine is only limited by the needs of its crew, though, and can travel underwater for months at a time.

A nuclear submarine isn't cost efficient - it costs a lot of money to build and maintian a nuclear reactor for use in a naval vessel, hence my cost-effective DE AIP system.

What about something along the lines of:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/static/pages/2427.html

as a rough guide, plus some ideas for newer technology. I already produce something similar, but seeing as how ACS is an ally, and UV is considered friendly to McLeod03, i'll offer up the idea.

Me thinks Doujin is just trying to sell his system to UV :)

No, I'm not doing that at all. I never said I would sell my system, now did I? I"m just merely pointing out the fact that your idea of a nuclear reactor isn't feasible. An advanced hydrogen fuel cell coujpled with a diesel is the most cost - efficient way, and IMHO the best way.

No, I'm not doing that at all. I never said I would sell my system, now did I? I"m just merely pointing out the fact that your idea of a nuclear reactor isn't feasible. An advanced hydrogen fuel cell coujpled with a diesel is the most cost - efficient way, and IMHO the best way.

Fact? Why is it that the most advanced American and Russian attack submarines are nuclear-powered then? Seems pretty feasible to them.

If you can wave you hands and make a diesel-hydrogen fuel cell so cost-efficient when I'm not aware of one that exists IRL, I don't think it's so much of a stretch for my nation (which is post-modern, for the most part) to have dealt with the problems surrounding passive cooling (which is being developed by nuclear engineers).

No, I'm not doing that at all. I never said I would sell my system, now did I? I"m just merely pointing out the fact that your idea of a nuclear reactor isn't feasible. An advanced hydrogen fuel cell coujpled with a diesel is the most cost - efficient way, and IMHO the best way.

Fact? Why is it that the most advanced American and Russian attack submarines are nuclear-powered then? Seems pretty feasible to them.

If you can wave you hands and make a diesel-hydrogen fuel cell so cost-efficient when I'm not aware of one that exists IRL, I don't think it's so much of a stretch for my nation (which is post-modern, for the most part) to have dealt with the problems surrounding passive cooling (which is being developed by nuclear engineers).

The passive cooling reactors you pointed out to me are designed for use in a power plant, not a submarine. Most advanced American and Russian attack submarines are nuclear powered(yes it does cost A LOT of money to maintain and build one, but at the time they were built the idea of a hydrogen fuel cell wasn't feasible)

The U212A being produced by the German Navy is equiped with an AIP hydrogen fuel cell system. I expanded that and installed it in a larger vessel.

Speed is kinda low. IIRC, the Seawolf class does like 40+ knots...

Diesel is supposed to be quieter, I think, but it really lacks the range of nuclear subs. For attack subs, you'll probably want to be able to track targets for long distances.

I think I'll keep my Seawolf if this is all your sub has to offer :P

The Seawolf HARDLY does 40 knots.. its official speed is 25 knots, maximum submerged speed about 33-34, and it's tactical speed 20 knots. You need to get better information.

And, the AIP system I uses allows it to have weeks of operation on the hydrogen fuel cell, thus making it just as capable as a nuclear submarine on long missions.
My mistake then. I could've swore I read somewhere that it could do 40...

You expanded on AIP - as I am expanding on the concept of a passively cooled reactor, adapting that for use on a submarine, and coupling it with an electric drive. No, it's not exact, perfect science... but it isn't entirely unreasonable. I wasn't aware that I had to be perfectly scientific for a game. I tend to be more flexible, as long as the concepts are basically sound. :P

You wouldn't need an electric drive if you used a nuclear reactor... and why am I trying to help out competitors anyway? :roll: silly me..

You have to generate the electricity for the electric drive somehow...

nuclear power works by generating steam that turns a turbine... but whatever I don't care, I'm to sick to argue :?

That is one use of nuclear power, yes. :) I am advocating an alternate use.

Okay, now that we've argued for over a page about submarine propulsion perhaps we could get back to developing a sub? What other specs does it need (we'll come up with a name later)?

For close-in defense against torpedoes, I recommend a supercavitating-projectile gun like those the US Navy is currently developing.

Okay, it isn't too future tech is it? (just checking)

For close-in defense against torpedoes, I recommend a supercavitating-projectile gun like those the US Navy is currently developing.

*Digs out conviniently handy plans for defense weapons*

While the supercav CIWS isn't exactly an operational weapons system yet, supercavitating torpedoes do exist as do underwater supercavitating-projectile guns that the Soviets developed for their special forces. It can be done with existing technology.

I would reccomend the Spearfish Heavy Torpedo - 21in. Beats the MK48 hands down and just nips ahead of the MK48 ADCAP.
As for propulsion - diesel?? Who said that! Nuclear power is the only option if your submarine wants to act in the long range ASW role. Also less chance of being spotted by satalite if you're 99% of the time underwater for longer. Diesel is good for leaving them to lurk in a net around your coastal waters - that way they don't have to move and are virtually silent.
If you want a model for your sub, look at the Royal Navy Astute class. Although specific specs havn't been released (and probably never will), its a new sub designed to beat the Trafalgar class. Since a Trafalgar and its crew could out stalk a Los Angeles class sub and have a good stab at the Seawolf class, the Astute is looking to be the best sub in service for a long time. On paper it should better the Virginia class, especially with the new sonar, but until the training and wargames start - we won't know.

Just as an aside i would liek to pound on about my current submarine obsession:
Vertical guns systems, rapid fire guns with really long barrels that fire from periscope depth uisng extended rnage muntions as a cheap alternative to criuse missiles.

The US have a system designed to fit into a trident 2 launch tube currently under developemnt (basically an off shoot from the DDX project).

just a random idea...

The US is currently in the process of converting decommissioned Ohio-class submarines into cruise missile/special operations boats... but I'm not familiar with this vertical gun system you speak of.

Any links?

I only really have a pdf from the dtic
anway the pdf can be found here: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/gun/martin.pdf



The documnet pouts them at a 2020 or so service entry but i think i could improve on that ;)
oh and its only really a concept, oops...

Why not design your own torpedo? And why nuclear powered? The sub I made but havn't released yet uses a DD 16V 396 diesel engine, 3.12 MW
DD(Doujin Defense) AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) system, 300 kW.

Using a nuclear powered sub you can't turn off the pumps that cool the reactor, but in diesel-electrics you can shut off the diesels and run on electric, thus reducing acoustic noise generated by the sub.

Ahh but US subs have a natural cooling system that uses convection currents not pumps and so are like holes in the sea with no noise coming from them!

The US is currently in the process of converting decommissioned Ohio-class submarines into cruise missile/special operations boats... but I'm not familiar with this vertical gun system you speak of.

Any links?

The US Navies worst decision. Those 4 Ohio-class SSBNs were to be decomissioned in 1993, but the bureaucrats that are in control are keeping them around. The US Navy does not need more platforms to launch Tomahawk missiles, it needs less if anything!! Currently almost every US Navy vessel can launch Tomahawks, which cost 500,000 to build and near 1 million to launch.

Why not design your own torpedo? And why nuclear powered? The sub I made but havn't released yet uses a DD 16V 396 diesel engine, 3.12 MW
DD(Doujin Defense) AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) system, 300 kW.

Using a nuclear powered sub you can't turn off the pumps that cool the reactor, but in diesel-electrics you can shut off the diesels and run on electric, thus reducing acoustic noise generated by the sub.

Ahh but US subs have a natural cooling system that uses convection currents not pumps and so are like holes in the sea with no noise coming from them!

They still have pumps.

Anyways...
UV, do you have any more requirements that you can think of?

Not really, as I said, I don't have much of a clue about subs. If I come up with anything I'll let you know. So, on with the development?

On with the development.

Very well, we can use my shipyards, yours, or construct brand new ones (which would probably be a waste of resources). It matters not which one we choose to me. I can have my own engineers on a plane headed to your nation within the hour, or I can have one of my own shipyards dedicated to our use.

Perhaps we can have a competition of sorts. The best shipyard from each nation can construct a prototype. The winning design of the competition gets the primary contract, while the other shipyard gets subcontractor status.

Ummm, alright. *goes searching for specs and pics*

OOC: bump, ba da bump, ba da bump, ba da duh da

This is the first concept image for the Federation prototype design.

http://us.f1f.yahoofs.com/bc/39a7a765/bc/Images/X_sub1.GIF?bfKpN._A2.Antdgw

The independent Xavier Shipwrights have come up with the following concept illustrations of their submarines.

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/data/gallery/thumb/1011630271t.jpg


http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/data/[(1055)-27-04-2001]astute2.jpg


http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/data/astute_class_image002.jpg

The independent Xavier Shipwrights have come up with the following concept illustrations of their submarine.

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/data/gallery/thumb/1011630271t.jpg


http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/data/[(1055)-27-04-2001]astute2.jpg


http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/data/astute_class_image002.jpg

OOC: Nice Astute pics. Much more professional than my DOGA render. :)

LoL, thanks

Okay, do you want to split this up and work on separate portions to put together for a final model? If so, what portions would you like?

Also, I have a heavy course load this semester, so if it takes me a little while to reply, don't think anything of it.

Western Tech
Mark-50 and Mark-48 Torpedoes
Passive and Active sonars
Towed-array sonar (maybe)
Nuclear powered
Active countermeasures
Maybe some system to keep from being hit by wire-guided torpedoes
Top speed of around 25 knots
Attempt to be as quite as an Ohio class SSBN

Western Tech: We are
Mark-50 and Mark-48 Torpedos: Standard 533mm tubes
Passive & Active sonars: That's pretty standard
Towed-array sonar (maybe): No maybe that is a must.
Nuclear Powered: Best choice
Active countermeasures: Also standard get some from NSSN or Seawolf
Maybe some system to keep from being hit by wire-guided torpedoes: Well this is difficult. You can't jam wire guided torpedoes or anything wireguided (thus why the TOW and ADCAP are as effective). I'd just try to make something to confuse the seeker.
Top speed of around 25 knots: Improved propellar on the 688 gets you to 40 knots and the Seawolf can hit 35. You might want to up it.
Attempt to be as quite as an Ohio class SSBN: You'd rather be as quiet as the Seawolf or NSSN.

Take a look at my website www.theforsakenoutlaw.com and check out my Shield-class. Sure it's diesel-electric but we could build you a nuclear powered attack sub roughly the size of the Seawolf and it can do all of this for you.

As you may have noticed (not trying to sound rude) it said general specs. I have very little clue about subs, I prefer surface ships and naval aviation. I'm using this to learn, and we're trying to develop a brand new one, although if ACS has no problem I'm sure you could join in and help us if you'd like.

Well to jam a wire giuded system you have to target the launching/targeting post (like the chinese counter laser system and the american stingray bradley).

As you may have noticed (not trying to sound rude) it said general specs. I have very little clue about subs, I prefer surface ships and naval aviation. I'm using this to learn, and we're trying to develop a brand new one, although if ACS has no problem I'm sure you could join in and help us if you'd like.

RG sorry if it came out rude or anything it wasn't supposed to. Subs are tricky trust me. If you expanded on requirements I may be able to come up with something pretty good for you. Like do you require VLS for Tomahawks or possibly some other missile? Range estimates, etc.

This is my Hades-class. It's a new design cleared for export and in testing has proved its worth.

Hades-class Attack Submarine

Length: 385 feet
Beam (Width): 40 feet
Draft (Depth under water): 36 feet
Displacement: 9,460 tons surfaced (full); 11,008 tons submerged (full)
Max Speed: 40 knots; 25 knots tactical silent
Crush Depth: 2,275 feet
Power Plant: One SNR-1 nuclear reactors, one shaft, (75,000 Shaft horsepower), with pumpjet propulsor
Endurance: 15 years without refueling; 120 days without surfacing
Armament: 6 533mm torpedo tubes (All forward), Total of 54 weapons can be held including Mines, Tomahawks, ADCAPs, Mk-54s, or Harpoons; 12 vertical launch tubes, Holds 1 Tomahawk each
Crew: 13 officers, 130 enlisted
Combat Systems: Same as Virginia NSSN; Spherical active/passive arrays; Light Weight Wide Aperture Arrays; TB-16, TB-29, and future towed arrays; High-frequency chin and sail arrays; 2 internal CM launchers (reloadable 2-barrel); 20 external CM launchers
Unit Cost: $2B

Hades Class Pictures
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/fasm-1.jpg
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/fasm-2.jpg

Well to jam a wire giuded system you have to target the launching/targeting post (like the chinese counter laser system and the american stingray bradley).

Well the trick with wire-guided is such. They launch at you. Snapshot a torpedo at the bearing and hope that the enemy sub cuts its wires and evades the torpedo.

LoL, thanks

Okay, do you want to split this up and work on separate portions to put together for a final model? If so, what portions would you like?

Also, I have a heavy course load this semester, so if it takes me a little while to reply, don't think anything of it.

Work is a bitch right now... so I've had very little time for personal stuff like this. It's not a problem. :)

:: bump ::