NationStates Jolt Archive

The Armed republic of Lioy sells Bismarck Class warship

http://www.axisandallies.net/public/havoc/vol5_havoc/feb/images/bismark.jpg

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/postlethwaite-bismark.jpg

http://www.turbosquid.com/Previews/Content_on_5_23_2001_10_08_06%5Cbismark.jpg38D3DFC8-B87C-442D-B5D194DC27BFC4AC.jpgLarge.jpg

Bismarck Class Characteristics
Ship Displacement: 43,022 metric tons
Length: 250 meters
Beam: 38 meters
Maximum draft: 10 meters
Armament: Twin Turrets (8 guns) Secondary (12 guns) Light Secondary Guns (16 guns) Anti-Air (28 guns) Torpedoes (2 tubes) 14.96”/52 cal SK C/34 5.9”/55 cal SK C/28 4.1”/65 cal SK C/33 16 x 1.5”/83 cal SK C/30
12 x .79”/65 cal MG C/30 21” torpedoes 380 millimeters 150 millimeters 105 millimeters 37 millimeters 533 millimeters
Aircraft: 4 Arado AR 196 and 2 catapults
Speed: 30.1 knots maximum
Propulsion system: 3 Brown-Boveri geared turbines with 150,175 hp
Endurance: 4,500 miles at 28 knots
Armor:
- Side: 12.59" (320mm) tapered to 10.35" (262mm) at bottom
- Deck:* 1.96" (50mm) upper deck, 3.14" (80mm) -4.72" (120mm) armor deck Forward Transverse Bulkhead:* 8.7" (220mm)
- Turrets:* 14.1" (360mm) faces, 8"(203mm) -5" (130mm) sides and roof
- Barbettes:* 13.5" (342mm) sides
- Conning Tower:* 14.1" (360mm) sides

price: ?? help!

we'll take it for $25,000 since it is historic as opposed to any naval use......

Interesting, I'd say it's a Battlecruiser. Seems a little light on the displacement to be a Battleship, and the Iowa Class Battleship has 17-18" armor throughout most of it. :?

OOC: it's the BISMARK u fool!

yes, I'm too young to develop a totally new warship, so i build the bismark....

OOC- The germans annouced that Bismarck would be a battle cruiser so the world would think they would stay within the 35,000 ton weight limit set down in the Washington treaty 6th January 1922, in fact she weighed considerably more than that and was classed as a battleship or as the German battleships were popularly known as, a 'pocket battleship'.
The difference in class is that a battle cruiser has less armour so it can go faster but with the same armament as a battleship, while the battleship has thicker armour and goes slower.

Interesting, I'd say it's a Battlecruiser. Seems a little light on the displacement to be a Battleship, and the Iowa Class Battleship has 17-18" armor throughout most of it. :?

Er, I'm not quite sure where you're getting your information, but the Iowa classes were actually closer to being considered battlecruisers than Bismarck. The principle of a battlecruiser is to be able to outfight anything it can't outrun (heavy and light cruisers or destroyers, for example) and outrun anything it can't outfight (main line battleships, for instance). That extra speed was bought at the expense of armor (in the British example) or at the expense of guns (the German meathod).

Secondly, the Iowa was far from the end all in terms of armor. They mounted 12" belt armor at their thickest point, and without looking it up, I'd imagine 12.5-13" frontal turret armor. A frather far cry from the 17-18" you claim, eh? Also, Yamato carried a little over 16" armor at her thickest point; King George V and Bismarck carried just about 15".

The reason for the Iowas low armor yield, though she displaced about 6,000 tons more than KGV and 1-2,000 more than Bismarck was not only because of her heavy gun load, but also because she was typed as a 'fast carrier escort.' Therefore, because the Iowa sacraficed armor for speed, she would actually be much closer to a 'battlecruiser' than would a true battleship like KGV or Bismarck.

i need the price!!!

i offer $250,000 for it.....

According to the couple naval reports I read, the Iowa's armor ranged from 8" to 17". Don't know where you are getting your information..

i offer $250,000 for it.....

250,000$ for THAT battle ship??

Fun Fact, the USS Yamato only sunk after 10 500lbs bombs and 12 torpedoes hit her. :shock:

According to the couple naval reports I read, the Iowa's armor ranged from 8" to 17". Don't know where you are getting your information..

Ah, but you're changing your argument. 'From 8" to 17"' is much different than 'Iowa Class Battleship has 17-18" armor throughout most of it.'

As for my sources, here's (http://www.battleship.org/html/Articles/IowaClass/Statistics.htm) but one spectacular webpage devoted to the topic. There are a thousand more, and I also own several books devoted to the topic. The Iowa did indeed have 17" of armor in a few select places - the conning tower, turret faces, and the exposed part of the barbettes, but that hardly constitutes 'throughout most of it.' Her main belt was only 12.1" according to that site, or just about what I said, if I remember correctly?

Remember kids: changing your argument midstream isn't a valid debate tactic.

EDIT: I also wonder, when did the Imperial Japanese Navy ever use the prefix 'United States Ship'?

EDIT: I also wonder, when did the Imperial Japanese Navy ever use the prefix 'United States Ship'?

bah, its 6(now 7) am for me and im sick with the flu :?

ya know, the Bismark is a little out of date. You might want a newer warship, like a nimitz class carrier. Shooting led is much less effective than shooting bombers!

Oh, and let me compare the bismarck and the Iowa

Ship: Iowa | Bismarck
Gun range: 42345 | 38880
Shell Weight: 2700 | 1764
Guns: 9 | 8
Size: 16" | 15"

Definition of a Battleship: Any one of a class of warships of the largest size, carrying the greatest number of weapons and clad with the heaviest armo

Definition of a Battle Cruiser: A large warship with lighter armor but greater maneuverability than a battleship.

By far, the Iowa class was a large vessel, and carried a lot of firepower(and other things as well, like it can top off a vessel on fuel and has enough room for 1000 personnel aditional..)

Oh, and I have a question for you Iansisle, who do you think would win. A Bismark(Tirpitz) or an Iowa? The Iowa was faster, had longer steaming range, more horsepower, more firepower, more guns, bigger shells, more belt armor, more deck armor, thicker barbettes, better radar, more recent design, better AA, more AA, and was pretty much better than the Bismarck in every way by huge margins of up to 200%

Oh, and another thing - the final battle with a Bismarck BB ended up in the BB sinking(without landing a single hit on the two "inferior" ships that were attacking it) Now keep in mind, this was a 41 minute battle..

And, after about an hour of looking I still havn't found a single document saying that the [i]Iowa was classed as a "fast carrier escort".

ya know, the Bismark is a little out of date. You might want a newer warship, like a nimitz class carrier. Shooting led is much less effective than shooting bombers!

That is debatable.

yes, but the Iowa is also out of date, you see that modern batleships have missiles. There are good reasones for this.

i offer $250,000 for it.....

250,000$ for THAT battle ship??

yes $250,00 for THAT battle ship, HRH wishes for it to be delivered to Larkania's main port to bring him home after the party he is presently attending........

It costs over 1 million in the end to launch a Tomahawk missile, M-pire.

I wouldn't even pay that Midlonia :roll:

Doujin stay ouuta this i want that ship!

ooc: Uhm. You'd probably do well to get the steel its made of for so little.
I do question the logic behind the construction and sale of this ship. The nation at the source of it claims that building effective modern ships is beyond her means? And yet it is not only willing and able to build forty thousand ton warships requiring four figure crew, but to build them for export? That's a touch insane, isn't it? When did anyone ever make a habit of building battleships for export? Of course a few changed hands over time, but I'm fairly sure those were generally cases of European powers palming off old pre-Dreadnoughts on the likes of Turkey, or posssssibly assisting in construction of smaller coastal battleships expressly for little states with out-dated ideas of what will and won't get sunk within an hour of war breaking out.

I mean.. New Zealand has a tiny navy.. I don't believe Wellington took it upon herself to export KGV Class vessels or anything, rather to acquire a handful of modern frigates.

Of course its your country, you can try to do whatever you like.. I just don't think it'd end well.

(And Bismarck is still not going to be a battlecruiser no matter how you look at it. So Iowa Class vessels have bigger guns than she did- Yamato has bigger guns than Iowa, does that make Iowa a battlecruiser? Can there only ever be one battleship on earth because anything smaller than her is no longer a battleship? For pocket battleships see raiders, not.. full size battleships :?
I don't know when this became about which ship would beat the other in a straight fight, either. What the devil does the quality of a ship have to do with the classification it falls under? If Albania knocked together a frigate with a T-54's turret, and a clever ASW capability provided by Lt.Tara dropping grenades over the side, the fact that HMS Beaver could take it out before it knew what was happening wouldn't in itself make it any less a frigate..much as the fact that it could ram a wooden frigate without risk to itself wouldn't make the victim any less worth of the title frigate.)

Definition of a Battleship: Any one of a class of warships of the largest size, carrying the greatest number of weapons and clad with the heaviest armo

Definition of a Battle Cruiser: A large warship with lighter armor but greater maneuverability than a battleship.

Actually, a battlecruiser is defined as a vessel that sacrafices armor (or guns, as the German example) to increase speed. Also, there is no clause in the battleship definition that requires it to be 'of the largest size.' Hood was larger than King George V, Nelson, or Warspite (roughly 40,000 tons against 35,000, 34,000, and 28,000 tons, respectivly) and yet was typed a battlecruiser (whereas the other three were battleships) because of the armor distribution.

By far, the Iowa class was a large vessel, and carried a lot of firepower(and other things as well, like it can top off a vessel on fuel[i.e. it can refuel other vessels] and has enough room for 1000 personnel aditional..)

That's pretty dandy. You know what else it is? Clouding the issue with largely irrelevant facts.

Oh, and I have a question for you Iansisle, who do you think would win. A Bismark(Tirpitz) or an Iowa? The Iowa was faster, had longer steaming range, more horsepower, more firepower, more guns, bigger shells, more belt armor, more deck armor, thicker barbettes, better radar, more recent design, better AA, more AA, and was pretty much better than the Bismarck in every way by huge margins of up to 200%

Well, first off, Bismarck had 12.7" of belt armor to Iowa's 12.1" ... that's hardly a 200% range in favor of Iowa, is it? Secondly, what does this have to do with anything? Iowa was built with the experiance of war, better technology, more money and manpower, and a much larger displacement. A fight between the two has no bearing on which is better typed as a battlecruiser.

Oh, and another thing - the final battle with a Bismarck BB ended up in the BB sinking(without landing a single hit on the two "inferior" ships that were attacking it) Now keep in mind, this was a 41 minute battle..

And this was after Bismarck had already recieved a 14" shell from Prince of Wales, several torpedo hits for Swordfish and destroyers, had her rudder jammed, and was steaming at about ten knots? Sounds like a real fair fight. However, before I get any more into this: what does this have to do with anything? Just because KGV and Rodney picked a limping Bismarck apart (which, by the way, took more than 700 shells, and she was finished at last by torpedoes from the Dorestshire...but that's neither here nor there), suddenly she has to be a battlecruiser? You, my son, could do with a more cohesive argument.

And, after about an hour of looking I still havn't found a single document saying that the Iowa was classed as a "fast carrier escort".

After five minutes of searching, here's a fine article by Chuck Hawkes (http://www.chuckhawks.com/post_treaty_battleships.htm) (who, I might add, writes some of the big gun ship analysis on the internet) that says, and I quote:

Her very high speed was an aircraft carrier, not a battleship, requirement; her superlative AA battery intended to protect the carriers she was escorting as much as herself. The never completed Montana class were really America's version of the ultimate gunfighting battleship.

Checkmate.