NationStates Jolt Archive

Today, many military periodicals placed sketchy reports on what is being called the CVSN-91. The CVSN makes it a submersible carrier, but the reports on scale make it something much more than the WelleKrieger, which carried Subcraft. The following conceptual has been released-
http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Rifts/Rifts-Earth-Vehicles/United_States/US_CVN-87_Ticonderoga_Carrier-2-small.gif
The length is put around that of a Nimitz, but with 2 smaller flight decks instead of one. This revolutionary ship, the "Corinth Dleroes", will carry both subcraft and aircraft, and have full flagship capabilities. A slew of technologies has been put out for this weapon-
-New Gels and materials to ensure silent movement
-An extremely large MHD system
-Rumors say this ship will field EMS sensors and EMS guided weapons
-And many new military computer systems are expected to appear.
However, this will come at a cost, a very hefty one. Estimated costs put the CVSN at 10 billion a vessel, over twice that of a Nimitz. But, should this project succeed, it will be a revolutionary system.

Can we help somehow in that project?

Can we? Lol we had that and was wiating until I reached 100 million before I was gonna sell it, you beat me to the punch - meanie

Yes, the NEMPD (New Empire Military Projects Division) is accepting offers from any nation, in any form.

We can send a team of 21 Engineers of our Navy and we are ready to donate 26 million Euros to this project, but, if the project is well succeded we request free production rights.

Doujin is sending the Austal Naval Shipyards and Bath Iron Works to your nation to assist you in production, along with 50 billion DD.

We can send a team of 21 Engineers of our Navy and we are ready to donate 26 million Euros to this project, but, if the project is well succeded we request free production rights.
Hmm... I can't guaruntee free rights (10 billion tag... Expensive, you'll get discount), but perhaps we can work this out later.
As for your engineers, we'd like anyone who works on submarines and/or "stealth" ships and their electronics.

Doujin is sending the Austal Naval Shipyards and Bath Iron Works to your nation to assist you in production, along with 50 billion DD.
Excellent, thank you both for your contributions.

We do, however want free rights (since you stole the idea before I got to sell it first... ;)) Doujinshi Corporation Naval Division(Austal and Bath Iron Works) specialize in unique vessels and submarines - for more information on our previous work, check out the Doujinshi Corporation storefront.

http://www.angelfire.com/ar3/doujin/logo (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=100828)

Alright then, free rights for both of you. But Doujin, wasn't your idea. I've been using submarines as USV and subcraft carriers since the summer.

And I've seen your storefront, I have to say it's the best December nation one I've ever seen.

it wasn't your idea.. it was kitsune's idea :p

it wasn't your idea.. it was kitsune's idea :p
I never said it was mine, it just said it wasn't yours. Actually, also it's these guys- deepangel.com (Don't be going around trying to make those, Clairmont and I have everything copyrighted away)
Oh, and some other author had a modified Typhoon SubCarrier.

The Directorate has authorized an investment of $1B USD to the CVSN project, as well as a team of 50 engineers from 1 Engineering Regiment of the Thakan Dar Forces.

Understand that this is a significant amount of money from a nationstate of 8 million. It is the belief of this government, however, that the CVSN project will produce a most remarkable product.

We ask only for equable remuneration, as would any.



Devesh Ulveron, Director of Defence
Dominion of Thakan Dar

looks to future tech for my liking

Greetings, New Empire

We would like to work on this project. We have expertise in naval electronics. But also have a fair knowledge of the seas as we are a coastal nation and concentrate on the ses.

looks to future tech for my liking
Yep, futuretech, but good when I deal with other futuretech nations.
Thakan Dar, we thank you for your help. We will give anyone contributing production rights, as long as the design is not sold for profit.

Greetings, New Empire

We would like to work on this project. We have expertise in naval electronics. But also have a fair knowledge of the seas as we are a coastal nation and concentrate on the ses.
Excellent, as this is a submersible carrier, we'll need the best of the best.
Anyway, let's get down to business.

What we need right now is a way to make this sucker silent like a Seawolf when it's not deploying craft or fighting. We already have some composites and gels we'd like to use, but does anyone have noise cancellation systems?

I will only be helpfull in the electronics stage as I do not have the faintest clew about reducing sound and other things like that.

Actually, you can use electronics to reduce sound, or mask it... Anyway, can you throw out any kinds of Sonar or Fire Control Systems you have?

Although Adejaani's domain is in the atmosphere and in space, our Naval Engineers decree it's entirely possible to reduce sound emissions significantly, however, the vessel will only travel at about ten, maybe twelve knots, maximum, if it is to remain relatively stealthy.

Although Adejaani's domain is in the atmosphere and in space, our Naval Engineers decree it's entirely possible to reduce sound emissions significantly, however, the vessel will only travel at about ten, maybe twelve knots, maximum, if it is to remain relatively stealthy.
Hmm... What do you have in mind? We plan on using MHD propulsion, we just want to be able to keep noise from inside the ship out.

Doujin's unique propulsion system might help - a specially designed "caterpillar" design and our DD AIP diesel-electric hydrogen fuel cell powerplant.. you can run on electric power from the hydrogen fuel cell for over a week, not as long as nuclear powered, but it is cheaper to maintain AND it cuts down all noise required to make the thing move.. where as a nuclear reactor still has pumps to keep the core cooled that cannot be shut off.

Doujin's unique propulsion system might help - a specially designed "caterpillar" design and our DD AIP diesel-electric hydrogen fuel cell powerplant.. you can run on electric power from the hydrogen fuel cell for over a week, not as long as nuclear powered, but it is cheaper to maintain AND it cuts down all noise required to make the thing move.. where as a nuclear reactor still has pumps to keep the core cooled that cannot be shut off.
Oh yeah, I know all about Caterpillar, it's MHD. We've been using Pebblebed Reactors for MHD for a very long time. Like we've said, since we have MHD propulsion, we need to keep the noise from reactors and bays from being detected outside the hulls.

We are currently re working our navalvesels, removing nuclear reactors and replacing them with the DD AIP system.

We are currently re working our navalvesels, removing nuclear reactors and replacing them with the DD AIP system.
Well, the thing is we need a lot of power, more so than the normal submarine. Our Pebble Beds cannot melt down, and therfore are safer. But what we need is ways to keep the noise from the flight bays out.

It's not safety that's an issue - its the cost, it is to expensive to maintain a nuclear reactor, and problematic to dispose of the waste biproduct in the end. And even if you use MHD, the reactors pumps must stay on thus there is a possibility of the pumps being detected on sonar. :|

Pebble Bed reactors have the unique quality of the waste product being a fist sized sphere that need only be replaced every couple of years. And the pump problem-Like I said, I need materials to keep noise from the inside, well, inside.

Although Adejaani's domain is in the atmosphere and in space, our Naval Engineers decree it's entirely possible to reduce sound emissions significantly, however, the vessel will only travel at about ten, maybe twelve knots, maximum, if it is to remain relatively stealthy.
Hmm... What do you have in mind? We plan on using MHD propulsion, we just want to be able to keep noise from inside the ship out.

Something similar to an Ohio, though writ large. There was a proposal to add a few "outer" watertight compartments to "catch" and dissipate sonar waves (sort of like the wing structures of stealth aircraft). You do understand, the biggest problem with your submersible carrier is the flight deck. It's odd shape makes for a pretty big sonar return (due to its surface area), regardless of quieting.....

Premier Inte Anoit storms into the Board of Directors room.

"WHAT THE HELL IS THE MEANING OF THIS?! I DIDN"T AUTHORIZE A JOINT VENTURE WITH ANYONE, AND IF ANY OF YOU FORGOT I OWN 94% OF THIS COMPANY!"

"We are sorry sir, it was a quick decision that we felt was a good one for the direction of this company."

"Well, it isn't. Withdraw from this joint operation. Immediatly."

If we could get a powerfull enough engine we could use it to fold the landing strip in on itself and have the underbelly of the landing strip standard submarine shape, this would also make it quieter as its moving through the water I think, also if the landing strip was open wouldn't it tend to go up all the time.

Or, you can have a contraption of some sort that would cover the landing and make it similar to a teardrop like many of the stealth submarines are..

We can't really do any kind of folding contraptions, because that takes up space for the reason we have a flight deck-aircraft.

I think the best we can do is find a strong, heat resistant and sound absorbant gel or coating for the deck... Again, anyone have any info on the noise-cancellation tech that I've heard about?

The 7th fleet offers 300 Million Dollars in funds to aid in research, and we will offer the Services of 2 of out Finest Naval Engineer's.

New Empire, we demand a report on the gel sound suppressing system. If it is anything like the one we have already copyrighted, we will be demanding compensation or levying sanctions, depending on what actions you take to accomodate us.

I don't know about this "Caterpillar" drive, but what if Kazaakisthan has developed an anti-noise generator technology? For those of you that don't know, anti-noise works like this: Sound travels in a wave, as you know. When a wave of the same frequency in the exact inverse magnitude combines with this wave, the sound is destroyed. Experiments have been done with this to cancel out machine noise. Techinicians wearing anti-noise earmuffs could not hear the machinery, but could talk to eachother at close to whisper level.

Scandinavian, go screw yourself. The gel is designed specifically to reduce vibrations from sound waves, or absorb them, and I've never heard of you, so we really wouldn't know if we're ripping you off. It's chemically engineered at biochemlabs, and any further information requires Classified Access.

Everyone else-
Thanks for your help.
Machen-It's an interesting idea. We could theoretically try that on a huge scale...

Well i have money but i am asking for a bargin say 23 billion$ just playing but i will selll my money with u

Scandinavian, go screw yourself.

OOC: *Snorts* I love it when that happens, personally I ignore most international law and do things our way... we don't copy technology on the principal that we don't feel it's honorable... we don't care what other nations try to tell us what we cannot do, afterall, Iuthia really likes getting drugs from other nations for our peoples personal use...

IC:

Needless to say, we're interested in this line of technology for our own naval security...

I won't go into detail, I'll leave that until I'm less tired and I've got more imagination, however if you can see a way of assisting us, or us assisting you to produce one for the Iuthian military we will name it after one of your cities and compensate you well for your troubles.

We assure you that as an ally in the NAIA alliance we are talking within the regions of well beyond the sum of $5'500'000'000 (USD) as well as our assurance that we will keep you informed as to her performance and tasks so you may rest assured she is being put to good use.

Well well im a guy who can help you at i dont care if you trade on me but i just want you to know that any body can rely on me so just give a message and i hope to get back at you
but in return i want land im not asking for much and land ordinace i would just like to know we could be allainces
general byon

:roll: :lol: :roll:

Wow I have to say Im really impressed, this is the first Really NEW Ship design I have seen since first coming to NS! The blended Carrier Submarine looks VERY nice. Kudos to you! :shock:

NE, I had an idea? Why not do it "through deck"? Have a conventional submarine hull and large doors conceal the single axial flight decks? With modern systems, you can easily land them and having a complete submarine hull would preserve stealth, even if the thing is as big as a barn.

Scandinavian, go screw yourself. The gel is designed specifically to reduce vibrations from sound waves, or absorb them, and I've never heard of you, so we really wouldn't know if we're ripping you off. It's chemically engineered at biochemlabs, and any further information requires Classified Access.

OOC: Excuse me, I posted as the wrong nation.

Quite frankly, we couldn't care less if you've heard of us. The fact of the matter is, you're illegally copying an Imperium patent and we suggest you comply with our request, before we are forced to insist.

Sergey Molotov,
Direct of Foreign Services,
Imperium of Scandavian States

Look here, you prove to us that we are copying you 100%, and we'll deal with your lawyers. However, I doubt the 3 years scientists spent on this was copying from you, because if we wanted to, we could probably do a lot more than copy some gel. However, since you can't prove it, we won't pay a cent. And how far are you willing to go on your little misguided quest?
OOC-Seriously, shut up. I don't feel like dealing with your BS. If you think you invented the idea of Gel Stealthing, slap yourself. There are a few Navies and research companies working on it. Therefore, since you did not invent the f*cking concept, you can't sue me over it. You don't see Eastern tech nation suing every guy with a Berkut.

NE, I had an idea? Why not do it "through deck"? Have a conventional submarine hull and large doors conceal the single axial flight decks? With modern systems, you can easily land them and having a complete submarine hull would preserve stealth, even if the thing is as big as a barn.
Well, we did consider that. Only problem was it's not as much room for aircraft, and it's sorta hard to land. Maybe with 2 smaller hulls sticking out for storage of aircraft?
Iuthia-That's interesting. When we are finished, I'll work with that.
GeneralDucky- I wish I could understand just what the hell you were saying.

Wow I have to say Im really impressed, this is the first Really NEW Ship design I have seen since first coming to NS! The blended Carrier Submarine looks VERY nice. Kudos to you! :shock:

OOC: The kudos should really go to Kitsune and Mischa as this is an adaptation of their Ticonderoga design for RIFTS, but the New Empire is the first I am aware of to try to successfully integrate the concept into NS.

Wow I have to say Im really impressed, this is the first Really NEW Ship design I have seen since first coming to NS! The blended Carrier Submarine looks VERY nice. Kudos to you! :shock:

OOC: The kudos should really go to Kitsune and Mischa as this is an adaptation of their Ticonderoga design for RIFTS, but the New Empire is the first I am aware of to try to successfully integrate the concept into NS.
OOC-Yessiree. They made the pic, and the concept, but my version is much, much smaller. However, we may be switching to a new design soon, but I think it might be best to keep this.
:idea:
What if we could have a deck that would detect incoming soundwaves via computer (I dunno how, we'd have to work on that) and emit the proper frequency to cancel it out, or distort it so that it wouldn't look suspicious?

NE: The sound cancellation system is sold by Kelanis. The complete system includes an array of hydrophones, a Cray-52 mainframe computer, and signal processors/analyzers.

We would be happy to provide the SILENT-2 system to you for your ship.
The system also includes an acoustic jamming device which, used properly, can produce ghost echoes on enemy active sonar systems.

The SILENT-2 system is standard equipment on all Kelanisian subsurface craft.

OOC: The only major problem I see with this right now is flow noise. That flat deck is going to be noisier than a stampede of donkeys while moving submerged.

Ah, I knew someone would have this system!

Anyway, would you like free production rights for the ship and join as a team member (I'll need your engineers to help), or would you rather we pay you in money?

OOC-Well, the thing is pretty steamlined, perhaps the gel layer (It's basically chemicals that will combine with water to form a gel) on the deck could help the problem?

:idea:
What if we could have a deck that would detect incoming soundwaves via computer (I dunno how, we'd have to work on that) and emit the proper frequency to cancel it out, or distort it so that it wouldn't look suspicious?
OOC: This would work fo active sonar, but not for passive, and like Kelanis said, this will make a lot of flow noise. Maybe you could have a retractable cover for the wires, and a door for the cats? I know this isn't very clear, so I'll draw something and try show what I mean.

IC: The Naval Forces of Kalmykhia wis to express interest in this project and would be willing to front up to 10% of the costs and send a team of submarine, aviation and carrier experts to aid with the design.

Ah, I knew someone would have this system!

Anyway, would you like free production rights for the ship and join as a team member (I'll need your engineers to help), or would you rather we pay you in money?

OOC-Well, the thing is pretty steamlined, perhaps the gel layer (It's basically chemicals that will combine with water to form a gel) on the deck could help the problem?

Sure. Kelanis will contribute 100 of its best sub-surface and acoustics engineers to assist in the program.

We've also been looking into a supercavitating approach to a ship like this. It would be horridly expensive, but it would allow the ship to travel inside a 'steam bubble' caused by extreme cavitation. This greatly reduces friction, and the ship would be capable of speeds up to around 150 knots. (Noisy, though.)

Kelanis already has extremely advanced homing supercav torpedoes, but it's never really been tried on a ship. Perhaps we could use it as an 'escape system'.

OOC-Well, we've got Kelanis on the sonar trouble. However, everything is retractable. the EMag catapults lower into the deck and a sliding panel covers them, same with the catch wires

:idea:
What if we could have a deck that would detect incoming soundwaves via computer (I dunno how, we'd have to work on that) and emit the proper frequency to cancel it out, or distort it so that it wouldn't look suspicious?
OOC: This would work fo active sonar, but not for passive, and like Kelanis said, this will make a lot of flow noise. Maybe you could have a retractable cover for the wires, and a door for the cats? I know this isn't very clear, so I'll draw something and try show what I mean.

IC: The Naval Forces of Kalmykhia wis to express interest in this project and would be willing to front up to 10% of the costs and send a team of submarine, aviation and carrier experts to aid with the design.

Kalmykhia: Yes, it works for passive systems. Actually, it's less effective against active systems. Here's how it works:

Passive: Receptors positioned at particularly noisy or noise-emanating parts of the ship (like the engine room) detect and feed outgoing noise to a processing computer. The computer produces the anti-wave and uses hydrophones to broadcast that wave around the ship. It's basic physics; sound waves cancel each other if they have opposing wave shapes. All you have to do is invert the waves. This greatly muffles or stops these noises.
HOWEVER, at high speeds it's nearly useless. Too much sound to cancel.

Active: When an enemy is pinging the ship, the computer analyses the frequency of the sonar and feeds that to the jamming gear. The computer also measures ping interval and duration. Then, as the enemy pings again, the jammer emits a 'false return', causing multiple targets to appear on the sonar scope.

Look here, you prove to us that we are copying you 100%, and we'll deal with your lawyers. However, I doubt the 3 years scientists spent on this was copying from you, because if we wanted to, we could probably do a lot more than copy some gel. However, since you can't prove it, we won't pay a cent. And how far are you willing to go on your little misguided quest?
OOC-Seriously, shut up. I don't feel like dealing with your BS. If you think you invented the idea of Gel Stealthing, slap yourself. There are a few Navies and research companies working on it. Therefore, since you did not invent the f*cking concept, you can't sue me over it. You don't see Eastern tech nation suing every guy with a Berkut.

Actually, the requirement is 70%, which is why we're asking for a report on how this works, and just a general one at that. Given your standoffish attitude on a simple request, we are seriously considering bringing this issue up with the enforecment arm of the NS Copyright board. Once we do, a pleasent solution to this problem becomes impossible.

Sergey Molotov,
Director of Foreign Services,
Imperium of Scandavian States

OOC: No, you shut up and listen while you're at it. It's obvious you aren't familier with how the NS Copyright system works, so I'll explain. A nation can come up with or barrow a product and/or idea from the real world and sale it. Once that happens, you go to the nation running the Copyright thread (which is in actuallity a patent thread) and ask for a copyright on the product. If they grant it, that person's products are solely their own and anyone who copies them is risking the possibility of quite a few nations coming down on their head.

PS- No I don't think I came up with the idea in real life, just in NS.
PPS- Drop the attitude, it's beginning to affect how I want to solve this problem.

Oh, right, didn't hear about the passive system. That's actually very clever, and it seems to make sense, but I remember reading a Arthur C. Clarke story (in "Tales from the White Hart", if you're wondering) that seemed to do the same thing, but it didn't work for some reason, I don't know why. Just a point I thought I should make, I don't understand why it didn't work, and it may not be correct. When I'm designing the new fleet of subs for my navy, I'll be sue to give you a call.

The active noise cancellation system sounds like your best bet to me.

Look here, you prove to us that we are copying you 100%, and we'll deal with your lawyers. However, I doubt the 3 years scientists spent on this was copying from you, because if we wanted to, we could probably do a lot more than copy some gel. However, since you can't prove it, we won't pay a cent. And how far are you willing to go on your little misguided quest?
OOC-Seriously, shut up. I don't feel like dealing with your BS. If you think you invented the idea of Gel Stealthing, slap yourself. There are a few Navies and research companies working on it. Therefore, since you did not invent the f*cking concept, you can't sue me over it. You don't see Eastern tech nation suing every guy with a Berkut.

Actually, the requirement is 70%, which is why we're asking for a report on how this works, and just a general one at that. Given your standoffish attitude on a simple request, we are seriously considering bringing this issue up with the enforecment arm of the NS Copyright board. Once we do, a pleasent solution to this problem becomes impossible.

Sergey Molotov,
Director of Foreign Services,
Imperium of Scandavian States

OOC: No, you shut up and listen while you're at it. It's obvious you aren't familier with how the NS Copyright system works, so I'll explain. A nation can come up with or barrow a product and/or idea from the real world and sale it. Once that happens, you go to the nation running the Copyright thread (which is in actuallity a patent thread) and ask for a copyright on the product. If they grant it, that person's products are solely their own and anyone who copies them is risking the possibility of quite a few nations coming down on their head.

PS- No I don't think I came up with the idea in real life, just in NS.
PPS- Drop the attitude, it's beginning to affect how I want to solve this problem.
The Gel is several chemicals, each engineered for specific purposes. One is for absorbing sound and vibration, one for congealing, and the others are for cohesion and adhesion. These will be released from the sub, and then a low electrical current is applied to them, allowing them to take their gelatinous form. These chemicals will stay put at speeds of up to 20 knots, and can stay there for about 4 weeks before they begin to break down. The exact formula for SMPG (Sound Masking Polymer Gel) is owned by DesT Hydrodynamics, who has sold it to the Navy Research Institute. The gel was first tested 10 years ago, and has been in refinement since.
OOC-Alright, for one thing, I just performed a search, and your section in Camdean's thread has not been copyrighted yet. So even if I was ripping you off, I'm not now. Furthermore, you fail to describe your gel in detail, so how would I know if I was ripping you off. Because of that, you have only attempted to copyright an acronym. Now, the reason I'm giving you a bad attitude is due to several factors
-I have a wicked headache
-I haven't slept more than 3 hours in quite awhile
-You're wasting my time
Therefore, if you continue in this manner, my mood will slowly gravitate toward the idea that you are not worth RPing with, and be ignored, because frankly, I have better things to do than start a pissing contest with someone I've never heard of.

The active noise cancellation system sounds like your best bet to me.
Alright then, ACNS it is.
Kelanis-What would you say the max speed for your system is?
Oh, and one thing I forgot to tell Scandinavian Lawyers here, all further whining, crying, complaining, and such will be directed through telegram, because you're clogging my thread.

Here's my suggested modification of this design, the CVSN-92. I know it probably isn't what you're looking for, and it's a bad pic, but still. I hope that, when this technology is developed, I could design this as a modification, with your help. To this end, I'll contribute $10 billion and ten of our best naval engineers.
Picture (http://www.geocities.com/sovietnavymod/CVSN-92.GIF)
Explanation: The blue represents the added hull space. The pink represents the part where the wires are. This part can retract under the blue part when surfaced. The red part is a ski-ramp, which the planes are catapulted up, and the cyan part is a door which opens when surfaced to allow the planes to exit. The hatched part is where these two parts are overlapping. Hopefully, after the design of your vessel, I could design a modification of it to these blueprints, using your technology, as a variant (probably smaller) of your craft. Whatcha think?

OOC: You're right on the copyright bit, he's usually more efficient than that. However, the gel is described in greater detail in the description section of the Dreadnaught class SSBN and you'll notice that it works in the same manner that yours does. You're not the only one that uses Kitsune's sub designs and if I were quicker you'd be using the German submersible carrier :wink: . Given your current condition, I'm willing to let this slide as nothing more than two countries having the same idea and developing it at relatively the same time.

PS- Might I suggest you get off of the computer and grab some sleep? Failing that, at least take some Bayer, it does wonders on migraines.
PPS- If you're really desperate for sleep, have someone go to the drug store and grap some Melatonin, it's a pretty powerful over the counter sleep pill.

OOC: You're right on the copyright bit, he's usually more efficient than that. However, the gel is described in greater detail in the description section of the Dreadnaught class SSBN and you'll notice that it works in the same manner that yours does. You're not the only one that uses Kitsune's sub designs and if I were quicker you'd be using the German submersible carrier :wink: . Given your current condition, I'm willing to let this slide as nothing more than two countries having the same idea and developing it at relatively the same time.

PS- Might I suggest you get off of the computer and grab some sleep? Failing that, at least take some Bayer, it does wonders on migraines.
PPS- If you're really desperate for sleep, have someone go to the drug store and grap some Melatonin, it's a pretty powerful over the counter sleep pill.
Yeah, I know they are similar... I also know Kitsune has quite a few of his/her designs running around here. Anyway, I slept, and sorry for the crud I gave you. Anyway...

Kal- That's actually a good idea... Just seems dangerous for landing. Maybe for a helicopter carrier...

Anyway, thanks for the help.

The active noise cancellation system sounds like your best bet to me.
Alright then, ACNS it is.
Kelanis-What would you say the max speed for your system is?
Oh, and one thing I forgot to tell Scandinavian Lawyers here, all further whining, crying, complaining, and such will be directed through telegram, because you're clogging my thread.

The noise cancellation system works at speeds up to about 20 knots. The active jamming works at any speed.

OOC: Personally I ignore the NS copyright system, if some nations want to copyright technology already used or thought up of in real life then they can do it in their nation, meanwhile I (as a nation) ignore such law because I can see no way for such an international entity to effect me... after all my economic routes are secured with nations who trust me (not some snooty nation) and military support from the same nations in such a way that it would be suicide to invade me or attack me.

Basically I find the idea of telling me I can't develope technology from what I've read in the real world as appalling... you don't IRL own that idea and to own it on the idea that you found it first (IRL) is stupid. Basically think of Iuthia like Japan, we don't reckognise your copyright and as such we don't care if you claimed it first, I'll have the tech I researched either way and unless you want to start a International Incident over it then feel free, I've got enough security to not feel threatened by you.

IC:

Iuthia fully trusts New Empire's claim that they have developed this technology independantly of Scandavian States. Therefor we are fully supportive to our ally should this be acted upon by foolish snobbish nations.

We condemn the idea that a nation cannot develope technology on it's own if some other nation has come up with something close to it, if fowl play can be proven and espionage is the case then we can understand, however making a nation pay for their own idea, however similar it may be to your own is wrong and should be ignored to say the least.

The notion that any of our new technologies should be payed for if they are as close as 70% to another nations copyrighted technology is beyond stupid and will be ignored fully. We will not pay another nation for technology we develop, take your "international laws" else where, you don't control me.

Thanks

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/iuthia.jpg

Lord General deGritz, leader of the Iuthian people.
President of the NAIA (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=75900&highlight=)

Urbanites (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=Urbanites)
Recent News in Iuthia (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83886&highlight=)
Iuthia’s Space News (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=97906&highlight=)

NE, is there anything you still require for the submarine?

NE, is there anything you still require for the submarine?
Well, I think we've solved the stealthing, so right now it's defensive weapons and integrating all the electronics and systems.

I'm thinking about retractable or flush currets using supercavitating bullets to intercept torpedo or missile. This would be a sort of Super CIWS. Other systems are EMS guided Supercavitating torpedo and a Barak or RAM type system for air defense.

The problem with those systems is keeping the launch mechanisms dry. The anti torpedo torpedo "should" be relatively easy. I can do a VLS system for the anti air, but I can't do a "CIWS", that'll just get ruined by the saltwater.

The problem with those systems is keeping the launch mechanisms dry. The anti torpedo torpedo "should" be relatively easy. I can do a VLS system for the anti air, but I can't do a "CIWS", that'll just get ruined by the saltwater.
Actually, the Anti-torp doesn't need to stay dry... And the CIWS type system isn't an actual CIWS. It's based on the USN supercavitating anti-mine gun... It works when fired from above or below. And I figure on using EM guidance along with other systems, so no problem there.

"...and it is indeed intriguing to see that the world continues to advance in the wake of the IDF N. An interesting innovation, but still somewhat behind the majesty and might that is the Vanguard class..."

~ Excerpt of the comments of noted military analyst Shelri Dokrehm-Ethri Aquinall, speaking on Military Weekly, aired on INN Solar 3

The problem with those systems is keeping the launch mechanisms dry. The anti torpedo torpedo "should" be relatively easy. I can do a VLS system for the anti air, but I can't do a "CIWS", that'll just get ruined by the saltwater.
Actually, the Anti-torp doesn't need to stay dry... And the CIWS type system isn't an actual CIWS. It's based on the USN supercavitating anti-mine gun... It works when fired from above or below. And I figure on using EM guidance along with other systems, so no problem there.

Oh, okay, then I can do that. Yes, sign me up for development. Please give uh..... Requirements ASAP.

We have our Doberman anti-torpedo weapons available.

The Doberman is a short-range area system that creates an anti-torpedo net by using thick carbon fibers. At the top corners of the net are buoyant holding spheres, and at the bottom, negatively buoyant spheres. The incoming torpedo is caught in the elastic net, and is at the very least slowed down so the target can escape.

Hmm...
I'll take the Doberman, Kelanis.
Adj-
Defensive System requirements-
We need for the SuCav gun-
Something that can fire the rounds at VERY high velocities (At least Mach 3...)
Round between 20 and 30mm
Be able to retract into hull
Use multiple sensors to identify and kill target
Link to the USNE MkXII NAI Fire Control and Targeting computer

Ok, we'll fit the ship for the Doberman.

OOC: You might want to look into something like the Copperhead gun shell for your sucav point-defense weapons, maybe we could have a basic guidance system for the shells. Either that or really, really big warheads.

NE, I think I said this before, but I'll say it again. This SuCav gun can only work on the surface as saltwater would eventually degrade this weapon to rotted metal (which would require a drydocking to pretty much replace the entire system.

However, if you can explain what the weapon is used for, then perhaps I can suggest an alternative.

NE, I think I said this before, but I'll say it again. This SuCav gun can only work on the surface as saltwater would eventually degrade this weapon to rotted metal (which would require a drydocking to pretty much replace the entire system.

However, if you can explain what the weapon is used for, then perhaps I can suggest an alternative.
You could seal the gun... I need to research the one the USN wants to put on the Manta...
Anyway, it's anti-missile, mine, and torpedo.

Oh, then NE, you can forget about the gun. The weapon you'd need (which I can design) is similar to the single 'arm' missile launcher on the USN Oliver Hazard Perry FFGs. The hatch opens, there's just a launch rail and a light, I dunno what you'd call it, a torpedo/missile. If you were really desperate, I could scale this up to something like the Rolling Airframe Missile launcher, which carries something like twelve rounds.

After firing, the launcher swings back into "up" position, retracts into the hull, doors seal back up and reload. I feel this design is better, as unguided bullets, even in the current of water, would be dragged off course, not to mention slowed or knocked off course by various things (propeller wash etc).

Approval?

The weapon sounds interesting, but it must be cheap (Small low-cost interceptor device), and small so that it can be quickly launched and deal with mass attacks.

However, I would not rule out the bullet or undguided projectile, as your valid points on slow speed and dragging really don't apply to supercavitation, because we're talking about a bullet sheathed in a air bubble going around Mach 3. The Russians had a supercavitating bullet for SpecOps underwater weapons, and it worked fine.

Actually, after you replied, I did have a side thought.

The Ex-31 RAM launchers I mentioned, yes, they'd be great. But I discounted "gun" weapons simply because saltwater corrosion would degrade them. However, an Ex-31 type launcher could house electromagnetic guns! Quite simply, each "rack" could house an electromagnetic gun, which then slings the slug forward. With no moving parts (apart from pivot and swivel joints, which can be adequately protected), such a device could work. Though I should note that the bore has to be larger so as to be more efficiently handled (smaller calibres can work, the problem currently is technical).

Your choice is now either an electromagnetic gun system or a lightweight missile system.

I think somebody already made those, they are called the Ticonderoga Submersible carrier, you should look it up.

I think somebody already made those, they are called the Ticonderoga Submersible carrier, you should look it up.
I can't, there's no keyword search. Besides, this ain't the Tico, this just looks like it. It's smaller, different weapons, load, whatever.
Adejaani, the railgun is a very good idea. We can take the supercavitating rounds from the proposed CIWS idea and modify them to be fired out of the emag gun. Can it fire a 20mm supercavitating round?

Adejaani, the railgun is a very good idea. We can take the supercavitating rounds from the proposed CIWS idea and modify them to be fired out of the emag gun. Can it fire a 20mm supercavitating round?

20mm is a bit thin, you see, it's not a "Gattling cannon" per se. Basically, the guns are like torpedo tubes in principle, except the round is launched via electromagnets, not self propulsion. Basically, using an Ex-31 type launcher, four tubes can be plugged in, so it looks like "••••" front on.

When firing occurs, the first round is taken into the tube, the door is opened and out it flies. The door closes, repressurised and another round goes up. The problem is mostly technical, here. In order to make this weapon fire underwater, we had to make no moving parts. Furthermore, because of bullet shapes and the need to maintain the surface of each gun (to replace the gun means replacing the entire popup unit).

To accomplish this, finely tuned magnetic fields are used to push each round into the barrel and to keep it centered. At this point in time, a 20mm round doesn't have enough weight and balance to remain steady. So the current round is 50 calibre/12.7mm, while experimentation for smaller calibres is continuing.

Each barrel contains ten "ready" rounds and each firing cycle is four seconds. Meaning with all barrels firing, a rate of one round per second can be accomplished, for a total of forty rounds before the unit must retract. For simplicity, the rounds are rack mounted in units of ten (four guns makes forty rounds), so it's just the matter of opening a panel, removing the spent racks and inserting new ones.

The problem I see with the "Doberman" system is that it is an environmental nightmare. It's like releasing a tuna net into the sea to float as it will every time you release one.

The problem I see with the "Doberman" system is that it is an environmental nightmare. It's like releasing a tuna net into the sea to float as it will every time you release one.
Well, if we get into the situation that we need it to stop a torp, who do you think matters more to me-Tuna or people?
Anyway, Adj, you're sending me mixed messages. You say we need larger rounds, and then say we need a 12.7mm bullet. And a 50 cal, (12.7 is .50 cal) is 1270mm... I think we need to clear the caliber thingy up a bit.

Anyway, Adj, you're sending me mixed messages. You say we need larger rounds, and then say we need a 12.7mm bullet. And a 50 cal, (12.7 is .50 cal) is 1270mm... I think we need to clear the caliber thingy up a bit.

Bleh, I can't count. It's meant to be 0.50 calibre/12.7mm rounds. Of the same type the Browning M2 Machine gun uses. Those are what I consider the most appropriate and stable calibre for this first generation weapon. I can continue research, but it doesn't really matter.

Uhh... Still, you said we needed a heavier round with more weight, and now you're going smaller. We actually already have railgun prototypes in calibers 12.7mm through 90mm, so maybe we could use one of those?

Why don't we just make the bullets out of lead if we need more weight? :lol:

Why would the SuCav gun not work underwater due to corrosion? Submarines don't rot away like that, at least not so badly no-one uses them. And if we're talking water getting into the barrel, that'll happen to a railgun, which has electrics in the chamber. Electricity & saltwater = bad. And you really need a much higher rate of fire for this to kill missiles.
My suggestion for above water weapons system, to kill missiles with: basically, spherical turrets set into the hull. When submerged, a little hatch covers the barrel of the CIWS\railgun. When it surfaces, it pops out, to shoot down nasty people.
Oh, and it should't be too dangerous, because the plane will have trapped by the time it goes under the blue. If it hasn't, then bad stuff happens. And I need to vent gases out, or evryone will sufocate (these actually could be used for floatation maybe, look into this I shall).

Uhh... Still, you said we needed a heavier round with more weight, and now you're going smaller. We actually already have railgun prototypes in calibers 12.7mm through 90mm, so maybe we could use one of those?

Mleh. :? I only just realised 12.7 mm was smaller than 20mm. X-p Sorry about that, NE. :?

40mm rounds will be what's used in this weapon, currently codenamed to Project Sea Sting.

As an interesting aside, I did a few checks, you could just downscale the barrel bore to accomodate 20mm/30mm or lower, but it is the firing and reloading process that takes the time. It'll still take roughly four seconds to cycle to fire, regardless of bore size.

Though the smaller sized ammunitions would have a higher overall velocity than the 40mm. Here's what I can offer, with a universal firing rate of 1 round ever 4 seconds:

• 4x 40mm, forty (40) rounds total
• 4x 30mm, forty eight (48 ) rounds total
• 8x 20mm, eighty (80) rounds total

The problem I see with the "Doberman" system is that it is an environmental nightmare. It's like releasing a tuna net into the sea to float as it will every time you release one.
Well, if we get into the situation that we need it to stop a torp, who do you think matters more to me-Tuna or people?

It's not just tuna that it would kill... any kind of fish or aquatic mammal or bird or whatever that got caught would be killed. If you released it in shallow enough water, it could get tangled up on reefs and cause even more damage.

Dropping big nets in the water just doesn't strike me as being a very practical anti-torpedo system. What happens if the torpedo gets through before the net can fully deploy?

Why would the SuCav gun not work underwater due to corrosion? Submarines don't rot away like that, at least not so badly no-one uses them. And if we're talking water getting into the barrel, that'll happen to a railgun, which has electrics in the chamber. Electricity & saltwater = bad. And you really need a much higher rate of fire for this to kill missiles.

I don't really know. I said "corrosion" to make this weapon more believable. I guess it was prompted by the fact that a conventional bullet burning through a barrel like that would create grooves in the barrel, which would degrade performance, especially if saltwater gets into it. I guess my only reason is to make these weapons pretty much last ten years, not one (which saves time during refits, if any at all).

As for the slow, well, I offered a light missile alternative, but I was voted down.

1 every 4 is kinda... bad, when we're dealing with missiles on the surface, because it needs to do that too. But i'd like to go with 20mm Supercavitating.

1 every 4 is kinda... bad, when we're dealing with missiles on the surface, because it needs to do that too. But i'd like to go with 20mm Supercavitating.

This is for the subsurface. You can have a separate system for surface operations. These weapons are designed such that unless they take a direct hit, they probably won't need replacing for like a decade. They won't really need much maintenance, apart from rearming. And I should note this is only the first generation system. A second generation system might prove better.

No, no, NE, I had a redesign. Sea Sting Mk II boasts various enhancements now. Features include.....

• Four (4) barrelled design
• Firing rate of four (4) rounds per barrel with a cycle rate of once every four seconds
• 20mm ammunition of all types (armor piercing, hollow point, incendiary etc)
• Total ammunition capacity is 144 "ready" rounds in racks

I managed to squeeze out the four rounds per four seconds per barrel due to some rehandling and reshaping of the barrels. The only real difference between under and above the ocean surface operation is that underwater, the unit must retract in to reload, while on the surface, the unit must point "straight", or "T" shaped to reload.

The major limitation that must be kept in mind is technical. In order to keep the weapons operating for a lifespan of ten years (guaranteed warranty), there has to be no moving parts. Complex magnetic fields ready the rounds and stabilise them within the barrel. Underwater, this also includes closing the doors and keeping the water out.

Alright then...

New Empire i was there yester day with your "stealth" 747 this looks no better
and sounds even stupider

New Empire i was there yester day with your "stealth" 747 this looks no better
and sounds even stupider
I didn't make the "stealth" 747 dumbass. Now get out of here, apparently you're the only one who thinks that.

NE, how many units do you want for your first carrier? I need to manufacture the units and make sure they work and everything. :wink:

OK, so you've got a system to destroy torpedoes (the SuCav railgun), so you need two surface systems for taking down missiles. A long-range one to kill them far away, consisting of a missile system (think Ticonderoga here) and a short range system to kill the ones that the missiles don't get, consisting of a high rate-of-fire chaingun. May I suggest this new system we are developing for our version of this craft (the one I'm going to create when you release this, if you'll let me, with sizeable discounts to you and a large sum going to you for the plans). This is the Lyulkiy Works "Red Dawn" Close-In-Weapons-System. A spherical turret, containing ammunition and a 20mm chain-gun which fires at a rate of 4000 rounds per minute, is mounted on a loader system which contains twenty 2000 round magazines. When submerged, the chain-gun is retracted into the spherical turret. When the boat surfaces, the chain-gun barrels automatically extend. A fire control radar on top of the is activated, and uplinks its data to the turret fire-control system, which decides which turret will handle each target and radios this information to each turret. Upon tracking a target, the chain-gun will fire upon it, in any aspect angle, until it is destroyed. When a reload is necessary, the chain gun points upward, and another magazine is pushed upwards. Reload time is eleven seconds. The system is entirely automated.
Another suggestion: The US carriers have Ticos to protect them, the Soviet carriers would have had Kirovs, so we need our own equivalent. We need a submarine that can provide an anti-missile system to escort our aircraft carrier. So without further ado, I present the Tempest class SSGN. A modified Typhoon class, equipped with a 128 cell VLS carrying SM-2 missiles, or an 84 cell VLS carrying SA-N-6 'GRUMBLE' missiles, one technology demonstrator of each configuration is being converted at the Opraskaya Works in Kalmykhia, and will be ready for demonstration in a few months (days RL time).
Link to picture (http://www.geocities.com/sovietnavymod/tempest.GIF)
More info on the Typhoon (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/slbm/941.htm)

NE, how many units do you want for your first carrier? I need to manufacture the units and make sure they work and everything. :wink:
Well, howabout 7 units?
Kal-
Your chain gun sounds very intruiging. Again, we'd like 7 turrets for trial. However, rather than adopt a new sub, perhaps you could help us modify our existing vessels after this project?

The turrets for trial will be shipped to you in the next few days. The Tempest class is itself only a conversion of the Typhoon class. OK, so the SM-2 armed version has been cancelled. We are going to continue with our SA-N-6 armed Tempest, because that is the design we are going with, and we will help you construct your own "Aegis subs" later. I'm going away for a couple of days now, so I'll be out of the loop for a while.

The seven Sea Sting units have been fully tested and are ready for delivery, upon which Adejaani will warranty them for ten years.