NationStates Jolt Archive

The nation of Pain and Misery is begining developement on a fleet of super sonic submarines. Here is what the project will look like.
http://www.tsdepot.co.uk/downloads/models/images/marvin/submarine.jpg
Small Description:
The first subs estimated cost is 100 billion dollars.
It will travel at mach 2 while above water and at mach 1.5 while submerged.
The sub will be 50 yds in lenghth and will weigh 55 tons.
It will have torpedoes that travel at mach 2.

THis is just what the basic idea will be. We estimate that the first sub will be done in 15 rl days. After that, we will continue to develope until we have a fleet.

...:::If other nations would like to contribute by donating money or working on it, a portion of the fleet will be under your control:::...

I think thats a little unplausible.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Uh, to go Mach 10 underwater, you'd have to have a rocket attached to the bottom of your sub. A rocket...or four...

I think thats a little unplausible.

Replace a little with quite, and your getting close

Godmode hardcore!

Anyways, sound travels faster underwater then through air. Not to mention it has substantially more resistance to movement. You are crazy if you think a supersonic submarine is possible.

Well you possibly could biuld a super sonic submarine but it would have to rely of super cavitation and thus would incapble of doing much of anything while moving at those speeds, but as an inter warzone travel method it has it's uses as long as you don't mind telling everyone where you are (or were 10mins ago as you move faster than sound) and the massive restraints it would place on hull design (ie you sub would nned to look soemthing like the skival (sp?) torp and thus not have much in the way of room for systems and weapons.

So many people are quick to scream godmode, call P&M names, and fire ignores, without bothering to explain to him why his idea won't work. This doesn't help him become a better RPer and designer. So, I'll explain why it doesn't work.

1. Structural problems. At that speed, the water resistance would be the equivalent of driving continously into a brick wall. Incredible stress would be placed on the submarine's nose and sides, crushing it, or the constant battering of water would cause vibrations that would literally shake the sub apart. Also, at that speed friction would cause the water to heat to boiling, and underwater that could create all kinds of interesting effects like vortexes that would wreak havoc with the sub's steering. In short, if water didn't get it, its own speed would. The water just wouldn't let you do what you're suggesting.

2. Sound problems. Submarines are supposed to be silent, but a sub screaming by at mach 10 would wake the dead, and alert everything it passed for about forty miles in all directions. Sound can travel very far underwater, and sophisticated sonar can catch disturbances a long distance away. The spectacular water displacement in the sub's wake would also tip off anyone nearby that it was there.

3. Speed problems. Even on the surface, water fights back. Your submarine would face all the speed problems mentioned above. Not even aircraft, all the way up in the sky with just air resistance to contend with, can swing what you're talking about. No structure or alloy known to man can take that kind of pressure.

4. Sensor problems. At Mach 10 your sub would have no idea what was around it, because no sonar system, no matter how advanced, can scan water that's rushing past it. Even current submarines that can run at 45 or 50 knots top speed are running "blind" at their top speeds. Which is why they don't run at top speed very often.

5. Weapons problems. At Mach 10 aiming would be flat impossible, and slowing down to a target acquisition speed would take miles. The sub wouldn't know a target was there until it had blown past it. Even if you slowed down ahead of time, the top speed would mean the sub would arrive at the battle site to find itself staring down a bunch of torpedo tubes. Allow me to reiterate: submarines are stealth machines. A Mach 10 sub loses its main advantage.

I hope this is helpful, and that your next idea is better thought out.

What Glorious Humanity said. Your money would be better spent on space stuff, education, or making a wormhole to another universe. In short, your idea, while well-intended, will fail faster than a Sith with a hundred Jedi on his ass. Subs are stealth, not speed.

^ A Sith could take them.

I'll donate 1 trillion.

I'll donate 1 trillion.

1)Mighty Mountains, you don't have that much money.
2)You'd be donating to a worthless cause anyway.

To all you unbelievers out there, this design would work as previously stated by using super-cavitation.

If you know anything about it, you know that the submarine is not in contact with water, but forms a bubble of air around itself and "flies" inside that. As Crookfur said, it is not much use in battle, nor is weapon aiming easy, but a super-sonic submarine is highly possible.

Therefore,

Glorious Humanity:

1)The submarine would make no contact with water.
2)True, but could you hit a super-sonic submarine with your ASW assets?
3)As before, water is no problem.
4)Again true. I have yet to find a way round htis beyond advanced charts updated regularly, or fire-and-forget torpedos.
5)I think it would be used in a hit-and run style attack. Approach fast, fire, and flee again.


Crookfur: Its Shkval


Soviet Haaregrad: Its not actually godmodding in anything other than speed.


Geforce4: Its your choice, but this system is very plausible with a few modifcations.


Pain & Misery: Cut the speed down dramatically, as in Mach 4 tops for torpedos, Mach 2 for the submarine. If you do, i'll help with the research.

1) Structural problems are still there, as is water resistance. The most notable thing I see is that the torpedo tubes can't be flooded, and torpedoes can't be aimed at all, since they have a wall of air and those vortexes to disrupt them. Also, due to the pressure that would come when the torpedo tubes are opened, the sub likely wouldn't survive long enough to fire.
2) Since a supersonic submarine is physically impossible even in the not-so-near future, it stands to reason that if and when such a system becomes feasible, there will be an equally feasible means of countering it.
3) Actually, water resistance still factors in, as even with a supercavitating system, the water has to be pushed out of the way. Also, the picture doesn't fit the necessary design, which would be a cone. There are also very real limits on supercavitation that aren't taken into account, plus, there's absolutely no explanation as to how this acheives such speeds on the surface.
5) It can't quite operate like that. It would be "approach, fire, and keep going straight, hopefully not hitting anything."


Fun fact time:
The speed of sound in sea water, at room temperature, is about 2978 knots (5500+ km/h), or the equivalent of Mach 4.5 at sea level, or Mach 5.18 at 9000m (30,000 ft).
The speed of a supercavitating torpedo is about 200 knots, or just over 1/15th of Mach 1 underwater. However, due to the propulsion method, it has only a fraction of the range of normal torpedoes. Also take into consideration that torpedoes, like missiles, can go faster than the platforms that carry them, and you realize that even a supercavitating submarine still can't reach 1/15th of the speed of sound. And for that matter, a supercavitating submarine would have a range of no more than a few hundred km. It would probably have to be towed to a launch point, and then towed back again after it runs out of fuel. Remember, supercavitating systems are rocket propelled, and while rocket propulsion gets things going very fast, it doesn't last very long.

The sub is also too big for the weight. 550 tons minimum, probably twice that.

Sigh!

Let a former US Navy nuclear submariner shed some light on this.

Modern submarines go faster underwater than above water. In fact, modern submarine skippers hate to surface, because the sub's mobility, speed, and defenses are so substatnitally reduced as to make the vessel a sitting duck.

Using only the atmospheric version of the speed of sound (a little over 1000 kph), mach 10 would be 10,000 kilometers per hour. Modern aircraft don't even approach that speed in the air. The fastest submarine out there currrently runs at less than 40 knots (roughly 70 kph). The fastest anything in the water is 60-70 knots (roughly 110 kph).

The pictured design would be incompatible with the speeds listed. Regardless of whatever coating or bubble technology or whatever fantasy you think will protect you from the laws of physics, something will be creating drag through the water. Drag = friction. Firction = heat. The heat from even a modest fraction of the listed speeds would superheat the water to create enormous amounts of steam. This is all aside from the fact that the pressure of the water on the bow and sail of the boat would crush it like an egg at small fractions of the listed speed.

In short, this idea is poorly concieved and has absolutely no research behind it. If you want to use this idea, you may as well have 100,000 nude Lara Croft clones to man the boats .... it's exactly the same level of fantasy.

TEO

If you have the technology to make anything travel that fast, you are obviously using far-future tech.

At that speed your crew would be ripped apart by the huge G Force.

so-maybe if it COULD travel, the crew wouldn't last 2 seconds before becoming a smudge at the back of the submarine.

At that speed your crew would be ripped apart by the huge G Force.

so-maybe if it COULD travel, the crew wouldn't last 2 seconds before becoming a smudge at the back of the submarine.

G force is caused by acceleration, not velocity.

Sigh!

The fastest anything in the water is 60-70 knots (roughly 110 kph).

.


No, the russian supercavitation torpedo goes 300kph underwater

It still has to accelerate though, doesn't it?

that would rip them apart, unless they Very slowlysped up and very slowly slowed down.

that kind of makes it no point in even having the sub.

Are you planning on using this as some kind of kamikaze submarine?

Sigh!

The fastest anything in the water is 60-70 knots (roughly 110 kph).

.


No, the russian supercavitation torpedo goes 300kph underwater

That is news to the US Navy. Please provide references.

The torp that has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread and is what GF4 is refferign to is the skhval under water rocket:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/shkval.htm

your idear sounds as like it will be as sucessful as Conex south central. lets concidor air resistace stops jets reaching much above mach 4 cars has only just broke mach 1 now concidor the ressistace of water compared to air then realise it is as possible as monicoe betin the US in a war

Evil Overlord,
Seeing as you are a former submariner, perhaps your information is out of date. The speeds and capabilities of the Shkval supercavitating torpedoes are widely reported these days, especially after the Pope case where an American businessman was accused of trying to steal classified information on the Shkval from Russia.

I don't have the link offhand, but I do remember that the US Navy weapons labs currently hold the water projectile speed record using a supercavitating "bullet." So, I'm sure they know more about the Shkval and supercavitation than any of us here do.

your idear sounds as like it will be as sucessful as Conex south central. lets concidor air resistace stops jets reaching much above mach 4 cars has only just broke mach 1 now concidor the ressistace of water compared to air then realise it is as possible as monicoe betin the US in a war

1) Learn to spell
2) How many times do i have to say this - ITS NOT MAKING CONTACT WITH THE WATER.

The torp that has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread and is what GF4 is refferign to is the skhval under water rocket:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/shkval.htm
Is that the one that blew up the Kursk when they tested it?

your idear sounds as like it will be as sucessful as Conex south central. lets concidor air resistace stops jets reaching much above mach 4 cars has only just broke mach 1 now concidor the ressistace of water compared to air then realise it is as possible as monicoe betin the US in a war

1) Learn to spell
2) How many times do i have to say this - ITS NOT MAKING CONTACT WITH THE WATER.

I agree with the 'learn to spell' bit, but the second... The air will then just meet the resistance for the submarine. Honestly, it'd be more plausible if the submarine could just /teleport/, because at least then you're already being obscenely unplausible... Hell. I imagine it'd be easier to explain teleportation then Mach 10 underwater, myself.

It works on the principle of forming a streamlined bubble. Yes, the air would encounter resistance, but everyone keeps mentioning the submarine facing water resistance. It would, until it had passed the critical speed needed for supercavitation, after which, the bubble forms, and there is no reason why the submarine could not then ignite rocket engines and effectively "fly" under water.

It works on the principle of forming a streamlined bubble. Yes, the air would encounter resistance, but everyone keeps mentioning the submarine facing water resistance. It would, until it had passed the critical speed needed for supercavitation, after which, the bubble forms, and there is no reason why the submarine could not then ignite rocket engines and effectively "fly" under water.

Since I decided to do a search on supercavitation... Son of a, can't believe that actually exists. You're right about that then, I will admit. However, the picture of what the submarine supplied certainly wouldn't work for supercavitation, I'm sure.

The point still stands, that travelling at 10 or 15 times the speed of sound, even if you do possess cavitation technology, doesn't that mean the sub is stoill going to be taking mach 10/15 air resistance, which would still be enough to crumple it? That, and as far as I know, there's nothing in this modern world or the near future that can propel objects to that kind of speed under atmospheric/gravity conditions.

Hiigaara - I've already told him to turn it down speed-wise.

Tolaphata - try http://www.deepangel.com - the inspiration for mthe McLeodian Navy's own super-cav submarine, the Monitor.

Ok asuming it is protected by airbubbles whaer is this supply of air generated from I am quie certen it will have to be replaced at a fast rate as it would be pealing away by the speed of the water rusing past.

The torp that has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread and is what GF4 is refferign to is the skhval under water rocket:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/shkval.htm

Just finished looking it up. Thanks for the link. I stand corrected.

Now, changing the datato reflect the new top underwater speed for a 533mm torpedo (far smaller than a 10-meter diameter submarine) of 300 knots (500 kph, roughly) still means that this boat supposedly goes 5 times faster than the SR-71 in a medium several times as dense as air.

Whatever coating or supercavitating bubbles or miniature gremlins or super-Voodoo juice on the hull of the submarine will not permit the boat to exceed the speed of a Surface-to-Air missile in the air. Whatever is one the hull of the boat would be subject to destructive amounts of friction at far slower speeds than this thing supposedly goes. This heat will transfer- very rapidly- to the sub iteslf.

The magic supercavitating bubbles would not prevent damage if the boat ran into a seamount or another ship, would it? NO. The thin layer of Super Voodoo Juice coating the hull will not prevent torpedos from hitting the hull, will it? NO, Then the layer of miniature gremlins protecting the hull will also not prevent the kinetic equivalent of running into a seamount (trying to push through the water at anything close to the listed speeds would be pretty close to running into a seamount-every second) either.

since everyone is critisizing me, I changed some stuff. According to some others, 180 mph is the speed you need to go to make a bubble around yourself. After that, you can travel at mach 1.5. Is that better?

Ok asuming it is protected by airbubbles whaer is this supply of air generated from I am quie certen it will have to be replaced at a fast rate as it would be pealing away by the speed of the water rusing past.

Do you know what cavitation is, and what causes it? Its not air, its essentially water-vapour. As an object moves through water at a certain speed or above, it forms a vacuum in the space it occupied, and water vapour fills this gap, leaving bubbles of gass in teh wake of a submarine.

Super-cavitation draws on this theory, ad on expanding it. Bascially, the gas comes from the water as it is parted by the submarine.

well, if Mach is the speed of sound, what exactly IS the speed of sound in water?

well, if Mach is the speed of sound, what exactly IS the speed of sound in water?

Well at sea level the speed of sound is 760 mph. It varies though with humidity, wind, air density, etc. Up around 36K its 660 mph. In water I would imagine it is much faster because water is a great medium for sound.

well, if Mach is the speed of sound, what exactly IS the speed of sound in water?

Well at sea level the speed of sound is 760 mph. It varies though with humidity, wind, air density, etc. Up around 36K its 660 mph. In water I would imagine it is much faster because water is a great medium for sound.Really? i would have figured it slower, because the speed of light is slower in water... hmm...

well, if Mach is the speed of sound, what exactly IS the speed of sound in water?

Well at sea level the speed of sound is 760 mph. It varies though with humidity, wind, air density, etc. Up around 36K its 660 mph. In water I would imagine it is much faster because water is a great medium for sound.Really? i would have figured it slower, because the speed of light is slower in water... hmm...
Sound moves through vibrations and waves, light moves in photons.

[quote=Layarteb]Really? i would have figured it slower, because the speed of light is slower in water... hmm...

Whatever gave you that idea?

well, if Mach is the speed of sound, what exactly IS the speed of sound in water?
It's variable depending on temperature and type of water, but the speed of sound in seawater at room temperature is about 2978 knots (5511.3 km/h, or 3424.7 mph).
And for the record, I posted this on the first page, but it seems that no one paid attention :P

Evil Overlord,
Seeing as you are a former submariner, perhaps your information is out of date. The speeds and capabilities of the Shkval supercavitating torpedoes are widely reported these days, especially after the Pope case where an American businessman was accused of trying to steal classified information on the Shkval from Russia.

But I heard that the Shkavl is unguided, meaning that it cannot manuver. Sure, it can travel very fast using supercavation technology, but what is the use when it can't manuver?

Really? i would have figured it slower, because the speed of light is slower in water... hmm...

Whatever gave you that idea?OK, I got it now, Light is slower in water because it is refracted and must go through a lot more, while it speeds up sounds because it is easier to vibrate water than air.

But still, as one guy said, Mach 1 in water is the equivelant of about mach 30 in air.....

But I heard that the Shkavl is unguided, meaning that it cannot manuver. Sure, it can travel very fast using supercavation technology, but what is the use when it can't manuver?

The idea behind the original Shkval is that it travels so fast that the target doesn't have time to maneuver out of the way (which means that it is often fired at close range). The Shkval II is reportedly guided.