NationStates Jolt Archive

The United Socialist States of Zvarinograd has begun research on a magnetohydrodynamic powerplant. Magnetohydrodynamics is a method of generating electricity by passing a high-velocity stream of plasma (gas at very high temperature) across a magnetic field. As the stream moves through the magnetic field, it has an electric current generated in it. The principle is the same as that of the electric generator, except in magnetohydrodynamics the plasma stream rather than a coil of wire acts as the conductor. If tungsten electrodes (which are capable of resisting the extreme hearts involved) are inserted into the plasma, a current will flow in an external circuit between them. In this way heat can almost be directly converted into electric energy. The plasma will be heated by liquid hydrocarbon fuels to a temperature of 2,000 to 3,000 degrees Celsius (3,632 to 5,432 degrees Fahrenheight). At these temperatures the gas is ionized (has electrons stripped from it's atoms) and becomes sufficiently conducting. The strong magnetic fields required will be provided by bleeding excess extremely cold liquid hydrocarbon fuel onto the superconducting magnets (provided by the Dominion of Kotterdam), hopefully providing enough strength to contain the plasma. The magnetohydrodynamic powerplants could in thoery be smaller than conventional power stations and achieve a much greater efficiency.

The project has been completed. (This thread is now obsolete and used for reference.)

OOC:
Modern to near-future, hopefully. This is a few steps back from fusion.

OOC:
Bump.

Any suggestions? Debates? Violent reactions?

cooooooooooooool 8)

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Right...

Any other reaction? Anyone at all?

we donate 500 million to the project

i belive russians tested this kind of propulsion system back in the coldwar on the ayaks.

OOC:
You're amazingly accurate at where I found this idea.

Do you have any more details as to what path the research is taking? How will you generate the plasma, what sort of energy is required for output?
What will you use to maintain the integrity of the magnetic field, how will the electrodes survive immersion in plasma (that's why magnetic fields are used to contain plasma) and bear in mind that -273 degrees Celsius (0K, absolute zero) will not have much affect on 2000-3000 plus.

I am curious as to how you and United Elias propose to carry out this venture...

OOC:
First and foremost, I am working solo. In case you didn't quite understand what I said, this project is seperate and will be started after another project with me and United Elias. Second, I am inflicting the liquid hydrocarbon onto the magnetic field, not using it to defend against the heat. Third, the electrodes will have to be worked on, okay?

Ah, ok. Fair call. Apologies for the misinterpretation. t/m me if you want to collaborate on this one.

Good luck

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Okay, anyone else?

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Bump.

Mass bump.

Bump.

The Dominion would like to offer our allies in Zvarinograd the assistance of the VanDoos Shipyards. While this may seem like a strange step, seeing as how VanDoos has no experience with reactor systemry, they have recently gained a great deal of knowledge on the finer points of manufacturing superconducting electromagnets thanks to the DSEMP drives included in recent ships. Hopefully, this will be of some use to you.

http://www.cybersluagh.com/ErisKallisti/scott1.jpg

OOC: A cool idea. I think I've read about this somewhere, but can't quite remember where. Generating the plasma and keeping the electrodes intact are the primary problems that I can see, but with luck they can be circumvented.

The United Socialist States of Zvarinograd would like to thank the Dominon of Kotterdam for it's support.

OOC:
I'll choose tungsten.

Tungsten displays certain properties that make it suitable for use as an electrode material in TIG welding and similar processes. With the aim of lengthening the electrode life and improving the arc starting and stability characteristics, oxides can be added during manufacture to stimulate electron emission. In addition, tungsten has an extremely high melting and boiling point, enough to resist the plasma.

Melting point: 3400C
Boiling point: 5900C

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About the plasma, well, that's going to be in the last priority.

You know... you could just buy fusion technology prefab.

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I would, if I didn't aim to be Modern to Near Future technology and not Future.

how much energy is it going to take to create the plasma verses how much energy will you produce. posible negative numbers.

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Let me get what you're saying, you mean that it will consume more electricity than it will produce? Flash fact, the point of a power plant is to produce electricity, not to consume it. Plasma is formed by heating low-pressure gases until the atoms have sufficient energy to ionize each other, a nuclear reactor or any high temperature fuel can accomplish this efficiently.

Republic of Penglai has be developing Modular High Temperature Gas-Cooled Reactor (MHTGR) for power and industrial applications utilizing the intense temperatures. You plan to use magnetohydrodynamics for power generation is very interesting, we would be willing to share our MHTGR designs and technology in exchange for this technology, once the research has been completed. It seem that to two systems could complement each other, the MHTGR’s heating the hydrocarbons feed in the magnetohydrodynamic system. Both systems would create huge amounts of power efficiently. Please let us know if an exchange would be possible.

Before we accept this proposal, we would like to know the background of your country as well as further details on your project, if you may. One can not too sure.

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In addition, I need to know what technology level your nation is in. I'm trying to keep this strictly modern - near future, nothing drastically advanced. Lastly, how are you funding the project?

A little about the Republic of Penglai:
Form of Government: Meritocracy/technocratic administrative system with democratic consultation
Foreign policy: neo-isolationism – keeps to our own affairs aside from commerce activities
Market policy: mixed economy – some control economic productivity and subsidization; as a developing nation, Penglai is still focused on improving it native industries following the “Full Set” economic model with a strong dose of conservationism
Foreign trade: strongly focused on national self-reliance, but open to equitable trade and technology transfer agreements

Modular High Temperature Gas Reactor (MHTGR)
The Modular High Temperature Gas Reactor (MHTGR) design utilized basic high-temperature, gas-cooled reactor features of ceramic fuel pebbles, helium coolant, and a graphite moderator. The geometric arrangement of the reactor vessels, the core, and the heat removal components has been selected to exploit the inherent characteristics associated with high temperature materials. The design utilized passive safety features which provide a higher margin of safety and investment protection than current generation reactors.
The MHTGR was developed to standardized reactor construction, provide cheap, clean and safe electricity, with the ability to co-operate with other industries that need consistent power flow and utilize intense heat in their production processes, like chemical refineries and desalination plants.
The MHTGR design is to operate at the intense heat of 1,000C, twice as hot as most water-cooled reactors. Since extreme heat is required to snap the chemical bonds of various compounds, the reactor design is ideal for hydrogen production, the petrochemical industry and heat intensive industrial processes.
Penglai has just completed development and design of a 500 MW MHTGR power plant and current beginning the construction of no less than 30 of these reactors.

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Technology/Time Frame: modern to near future, as well and also trying to stay with in that scope.
Anything else that you would like know?

After verifying your state and this technology, we accept your proposal. We hope that both of our countries benefit from these technologies.

Updated and Bump.

Our engineers have completed one MHTGR, and we have it ready for transfer as part of our agreement. The reactor, technical plans and staff (engineers, scientist and trainers) are waiting for permission to come to your country, to assist in integrating our reactor design and the magnetohydrodynamic system. If successful and upon their return to Penglai, we hope to incorporate the improvements into our current and future plants.

The United Socialist States of Zvarinograd has finished initial testing of the design in a miniature scale and the results prove promising. If progress continues, we will be able to have a powerplant scale design in less than a decade.

(Bump.)

Do you have any more details as to what path the research is taking? How will you generate the plasma, what sort of energy is required for output?
What will you use to maintain the integrity of the magnetic field, how will the electrodes survive immersion in plasma (that's why magnetic fields are used to contain plasma) and bear in mind that -273 degrees Celsius (0K, absolute zero) will not have much affect on 2000-3000 plus.

I am curious as to how you and United Elias propose to carry out this venture...

about Plasma generation do some research on helicon sources and ioncyclotron resonance heating. But both of these require energy and the methods are not 100% efficient but at least you can test the MDP conversion cycle with this class of plasma source.

What we do is use a Uranium tetra-flouride gas-core reactor, the uranium tetraflouride fuel heats and ionizes itself at certain presures and densities by radioactive decay. At sufficient temperatures the ionization is optimized for rankine cycle MHD or MPD conversion.
combining a helicon source with this technique has gotten us the best results in the gigawatt range. We think more is possible with this technology though our research with these devices has been scaled back in favor of new research into Microfusion and Standard Fusion Reactors we recently procured from our trade allies "01"

Goodluck - we'd be willing to send a research science team down to show you what we know and help you out with your design and manufacturing process. We'd help directly fund you but - we're not sure it'll have a return in investment for us.

Could we interest you in quality Aerospace Vehicles?
The Colony of Neoluna has been in the buisness of producing quality aerospace products and orbital launch systems since its founding 60 years ago when an international aerospace consortium decided to slow a near miss asteroid into a stable GS orbit - this site has since developed into a self sustained nation built on the back bone of these quality aerospace systems.

Scramjet-induction Magneto-plasma Rocket.
Max load capacity of 80-60 metric tones - at a cost of roughly 500 credits/metric ton
Max speed at sea level mach 12.2
Max speed under q max mach 18.7
Max speed above q max mach 51.3
Max speed in space 100000m/sec (attained after a 38 day continous burn at max specific impulse)
Can land and launch from any capital airport like an airliner.

Principally the system works on technology developed for the containment of early plasma fusion power experiments. A Helicon source generates a high ion/electron density plasma which is channeled into an ion-cyclotron resonance construct which heats the plasma and accelerates it to speed in excess of 250000m/sec which is then ejected aft for newtonian motion through a magneto-dynamic nozzle at which point it is joined with high machnumber exaust from scramjet vents during atmospheric flight for more thrust enabling heavy launch loads.

VSI-MDPR 1
22 billion credits

Heavy Aerospace Transport
VSI-MDPR 2
41 billion credits

Helicon sources and ion cyclotron resonance heating

look it up

gas core or vapor core reactors

look them up.

Trust me - you can make it work.

Absolute 0 will have no effect on anything on at, Why? Because the only way to get Absolute 0 is in a true vacum and because a vacum is nothing and you don't cool with nothing.

Neoluna, Do you have some sort of mental deficency? You CAN'T have a Mach 12 let alone Mach 18.7 terrestrial airplane, the friction would melt basically anything you try to make the plane from. No matter how future tech you think you are, the law of Physics doesn't change as time goes on.

Although friction can generate phenomenal degrees of heat, as metallurgical technology improves, so does the degree of heat resistance. But you're right about one thing, the law of diminishing returns sets in very rapidly at that sort of speed. You have to be very high up to minimise heat resistance (case in point, NASA's X-15)