NationStates Jolt Archive

The New Empire Navy has set up a store for supercavitating subfighters, a revolutionary breakthrough in Naval tech.
Supercavitating torpedoes have existed for decades… The next logical step is to create a manned supercavitating craft. It has been 5 years since this step has been taken by us.

Supercavitating subfighters will be the ‘Tomcats of the deep’, patrolling the oceans at over a thousand miles per hour.They offer numerous advantages over aircraft. They can turn off their engines, loiter indefinitely, silent, undetectable. Aircraft launched to intercept them will circle aimlessly overhead, unable to target them. They will attack who they want, when they want.

Like aircraft since WWII, subfighters will rule the oceanic battlefields. Three quarters of the world is ocean.

Subfighters-
S/A-15 Hurricane
http://www.deepangel.com/assets/images/cenhurricane.jpg
SPECIFICATIONS
Fuselage: 58 ft 3 in
Powerplant: Two Aquaspace M-9 rocket engines each rated at 63 200 lb st.
Weights: Empty 72 000 lb Max supercav weight 105 000 lb
Speed: At shallow depth 1544 mph (2485 km/h) deep depth 1100 mph (1770 km/h)
Range: Maximum range on internal fuel 2600 miles.
Depth: Rated to 18 000 feet.
Armarment-
1x Supercavitating 20mm gatling
6x Wing hardpoints
6x Bay hardpoints
Special Equipment-Sonar Cancellation equipment, Athena-S, SmartSkin (Adaptive Camoflauge), all aircraft electronics, MK 7 NAI Targeting computer, Mk 88 Fisheye Sonar
$25 Million
S-16JE Viper
http://www.deepangel.com/assets/images/cenviper.jpg
SPECIFICATIONS
Fuselage: 53 ft 3 in
Powerplant: Two Aqua Dynamics HT 1000 rocket engines each rated at 52 780 lb st.
Weights: Empty 60 000 lb Max supercav weight 92 000 lb
Speed: At shallow depth 1544 mph (2485 km/h) deep depth 1100 mph (1770 km/h)
Range: Maximum range on internal fuel 2600 miles.
Depth: Rated to 12 000 feet
Armarment-
1x Supercavitating 20mm gatling
10x Bay hardpoints
Special Equipment-Sonar Cancellation equipment, Athena-S, SmartSkin (Adaptive Camoflauge), all aircraft electronics, MK 7 NAI Targeting computer Mk 88 Fisheye Sonar
$23 Million
F/S-39 Storm Rider Air/Sea Fighter
http://www.deepangel.com/assets/images/censtorm1.jpg
SPECIFICATIONS
Fuselage: 63 ft 7 in
Powerplant: Two ISC M1 hydrogen burning rocket engines each rated at 96 526 lb st.
Weights: Empty 76 000. Air. Max aerial weight 120 000 lb. Sea.Max supercav weight 126 000 lb.
Speed: Air. High Altitude Mach 10, Sea Level Mach 4 Sea: At shallow depth 3400 mph (5440 km/h) deep depth classified.
Range: Maximum range on internal fuel 3200 miles.
Depth: Rated to 13 000 feet.
Armarment-
1x Supercavitating 20mm gatling
10x Wing hardpoints
6x Bay hardpoints
Special Equipment-Sonar Cancellation equipment, Athena-S, SmartSkin (Adaptive Camoflauge), all aircraft electronics, MK 7 NAI Targeting computer, Athena Mk II, Mk 88 Fisheye Sonar
$29 Million NOT FOR SALE OUTSIDE NAIA OR APTO
--
We reserve the right to deny sales to ANYONE. No reverse engineering, no reseale, no trading, and no distribution of any products bought here.

USNE Naval Weapons Distribution Department

what tech is this?

At least 2030 tech. F/S-39 is probably 2060.

then I pass. Thank you, tehy look cool but I'm preasent.

That's fine. I know a lot of modern tech nations would be reluctant to use these, because there isn't any easy way to stop them with modern tech.

OOC: McLeod03 and their allies have been using those subfighters for some time now... you might want to discuss this with them.

What is supercavitation and how does it work?

OOC: McLeod03 and their allies have been using those subfighters for some time now... you might want to discuss this with them.
OOC-Not under the official names or stats. I checked. The Angelus yes, and they copyrighted that. But I've had all these for awhile, even saw me announce the S/A-15, and didn't care.

What is supercavitation and how does it work?
http://www.deepangel.com/html/supercavitation.html
Read through here for all your answers.

OOC: McLeod03 and their allies have been using those subfighters for some time now... you might want to discuss this with them.
OOC-Not under the official names or stats. I checked. The Angelus yes, and they copyrighted that. But I've had all these for awhile, even saw me announce the S/A-15, and didn't care.

OOC: No problem. Just making sure. :)

NE, I would love 1000 S/A-15's thats production rights too I presume.

Before I finalize the order, these are just like super cav mini subs right? They aresnt fighters that are subs and fighters right?

We would like to purchase (1) of each.

*$77 Million wired*

M. Uganda

OOC: McLeod03 and their allies have been using those subfighters for some time now... you might want to discuss this with them.
OOC-Not under the official names or stats. I checked. The Angelus yes, and they copyrighted that. But I've had all these for awhile, even saw me announce the S/A-15, and didn't care.

OOC: No problem. Just making sure. :)
OOC-Well, you can't be too careful, people can get very testy over copyright violations. I know I do.

NE, I would love 1000 S/A-15's thats production rights too I presume.

Before I finalize the order, these are just like super cav mini subs right? They aresnt fighters that are subs and fighters right?
Sambizie-Confirmed
TE-The prod rights I'll give you for 1 billion. But yes, the S-16JE and S/A-15 are basically underwater fighters. The F/S-39 can function in both aquatic and air environments.

Ill take 1000 S/A-15's and prod rights. thats 26.000.000.000 *wired*

Ill take 1000 S/A-15's and prod rights. thats 26.000.000.000 *wired*
We are shipping the products. Expect delivery in 1 RL day.

Ill take 1000 and Production rights also, im running out of money here, damn wars are exensive...

26,000,000,000

Ill take 1000 and Production rights also, im running out of money here, damn wars are exensive...

26,000,000,000
Confirmed and shipping.

OOC: These will have some problems.

While supercavitating, they will be unable to detect other submarines...they will simply be making too much noise. They will also be unable to fire (without poping their water vapor bubble that is) and have very limited manuverability (though they will be moving quite fast).

They also won't really be able to stay underwater forever...pilots need sleep...and air. Unless your thinking of puting a nuclear generator on them, they will have limited air and limited power.

Thats not to say they are not good weapons, I am sure they are, but they do have weaknesses.

One last note...these will not get rid of "run silent, run deep." They may be fast, very fast, but with a limited crew, they won't be able to detect the silent subs until those subs fire (and maybe not even then). Like the airplane, they will revolutionalize sea combat...but they won't replace the need for other types of sea power.

OOC-Not necesarily. You can still fire out of the bubble, but only with supercavitating weapons that temporarily extend it, hence the supercavitating bullets. The gas that is being constantly ejected from the nose and wingtips will keep the water vapor from liquifying and popping. And they will be limited yes, but they can function for quite some time. And the trick to detecting these is to use radars similar to those used to detect subs. Another solution is to mount the sonar on the bit of nose that protrudes from the bubble, or on the thick fins that extend towards the back. The fins and nose must stick out of the bubble to steer, so it isn't a serious problem. Also, they use the SkyEye system to link up with satellites using all manner of sensors, and convert the locations into GPS, allowing them to target without using active radar and sonar. The manuvering solutions-
Guidance presents one of the largest obstacles for supercavitating craft. Early versions of the Shkvals are thought to be ‘straight shooters’ capable only of flying in a straight line. Supercavitational bullets are also by their very nature unguided. The ability to successfully steer a supercavitational craft presents perhaps the most difficult aspect of fully utilizing the technology. Any control surface within the bubble will have little or no affect on the direction of the craft.

Steering a supercavitational craft creates the dual problems of both having to steer the bubble, and manipulating the bubble when turning to keep the craft in the supercavity. The latter is essential since if the fuselage were to come into contact with the ocean outside the bubble, then the force of suddenly hitting a wall of water would instantly crush it.

The solution envisioned in Deep Angel to steer the bubble is accomplished using wing like ‘fins’ which extrude from the fuselage and extend beyond the supercavitational bubble. Whilst these would cause some increase in friction, they have the far greater benefit of allowing the supercavitational bubble to be steered. The fins would operate as control surfaces which could steer the bubble, and have the additional benefit of stabilizing the craft within the inherently unstable supercavitational bubble.

The ability to control and manipulate the supercavitational bubble is also essential in both increasing maneuverability and to stop the crushing of the craft as it turns. The bubble creating cavitator at the nose of the craft would have to be capable of quickly changing its position and angle to both ensure the bubble is always encasing the craft and to compensate for varying water pressure as the craft’s depth changes.

Steering is aided through the use of thrust vectoring on the exhausts of the rocket engines, similar to current day proven systems used on the F-22 or SU-37 fighter jets. It has been widely speculated that thrust vectoring would greatly increase the maneuverability of supercavitational craft. The thrust vectored nozzles direct thrust both horizontally and vertically to allow much tighter turns and angles of attack, and assist the fins in effectively steering the bubble.
http://www.deepangel.com/html/deep_angel_-_supercav_-_soluti.html
http://www.deepangel.com/html/supercavitation.html
For more.

And no, I haven't totally abolished run silent, run deep. But they do serve a role as basically what the airplane did to warships.

Hmm......am I alowed to buy any of these?

Hmm......am I alowed to buy any of these?
Prove to us we can trust the postwar government.

Hmm......am I alowed to buy any of these?
Prove to us we can trust the postwar government.

How?

Do something that will convince us, how is for you to decide.

Do something that will convince us, how is for you to decide.

Hou 'bout I giv u moni?

*Yes I am trying to be a bad speller*

Bribery? Do something an ally would do... Not a criminal.

OOC:

Mounting a sonar on the nose would not help. The craft would be far too loud to hear anything else, even with active pinging. Not to mention that putting it in the water would partly defeat the purpose of supercavitation. And again, the small fighter would not have enough room for either the extensive sonar equipment of modern submarines, nor the crew to man it.

Satelite uplinks won't help either unless the subfighter is on the surface. Conventional radio does not travel very far under water...only ULF (Ultra-Low-Frequency, which has a limited data transmission rate and requires a very long antenna) works.

Radar also does not work underwater, thats why sonar (sound) is used.

Thrust vectoring turns a craft. It has been thought of for use in supercavitating torpedos precicely because you don't want fins sticking through the bubble...not because they add to manuverability. Thrust vectoring would not push the bubble around, just the sub...causing crushing as you said.

Steering the bubble is best accomplished from the front of the craft where the sharp edge that creates the front bubble boundry is. Moving it (and adding water vapor along other parts of the sub) is what allows you to extend the bubble to the side so you don't run into it while turning.

But again, any supercavitating submarine will:

1: Take a LOT of energy (we are talking rocket fuel here...quick burning).
2: Be extremely loud (everyone can see it, it can't see anything).
3: Be unable to shoot (well, OK, except MAYBE for supercavitating bullets...maybe...but what are you shooting at if you can't see anything?).

More then likely, supercavitation (energy intensive and blinding) would only be used for traveling large distances quickly and safely (from torpedos, etc). Combat speeds probably would not be more then 60 knots...and usually closer to 20. That allows the sub-fighter to actually detect targets with active sonar and fire torpedos (supercavitating or otherwise), rockets, and anything else. It also allows time for targeting and manuvering.

Bribery? Do something an ally would do... Not a criminal.

Oh K. I well hilp u in RPS sow u chrost mi.

OOC: Its me and McLeod who have propably the biggest supercavitating fleets around. We have all the same sub-fighters as you do New Empire except for the S/A-39 and we decided to use the original names for them instead of the new names. And true they are completely different by stats so i see no problem.

Also, altough the craft propably couldnt see anything when supercavitating, it would have to use a form of navigational system that only needs to know the starting point before supercavitating, the area and the velocities the craft would move at. Thus you wouldnt need to know whats outside. And really, since the craft wouldnt be supercavitating in battle which is rather obvious, this is a minor problem. Supercavitating subs could relocate incredibly quickly and retreat from battle likewise very quickly. Consider it like hyperspace from Star Wars. You need to calculate an exact path before jumping or you will propably be screwed.

One possible way of utilizing sonar when supercavitating could be by producing white noise to eliminate the sound caused by the craft itself. Then if the craft uses fins for guidance (as long as the fins have very little direct frontal contact surface, and they would be very tough, they could hold when supercavitating), the sonars could be positioned at those fins.

Also Wazzu, the way i, Deep Angel and McLeod03 solved the problem of fuel for larger vessels was by putting them to use fusion reactor as means of power production and separate hydrogen from the seawater thus the larger supercav capable ships dont need to return to harbor for refuel ever. But ofcourse for small-craft the problem is much greater.

And white noise could possibly be a solution for the loudness problem.

OOC- White noise is also another thing I was relying on, and there is a way of "seeing" outside the bubble, actually. On wingtips, you can mount fairly small cameras, and house them in a small glass dome. You could mount these with IR or Light enhancment cameras, and walla, you have some sense of what's close to you. And then there's Sky Eye. Our satellite networks, with a plethora of cameras, feed locations and maps in GPS coordinates, which show up on a God's Eye View type display.

BUMP
Ahhh! It's gonna fall! Dammit, you're such a klutz, you st-SPLAT

OOC: "white-noise" doesn't cancle out noise, it just makes certain sounds harder to hear. Its like turning up the radio or TV so that people further away have a hard time hearing what your saying. They still hear you (and the noise-maker), but they can't make out what your saying.

For this reason, white noise would still not let you use sonar.

Cameras would be limited in how far they could see (not far underwater, too much precipitate and distortion), and satelite communications would be impossible beneath the surface.

But as Clairmont said, not a problem at non-supercavitating speeds.

Also...fusion would certainly be useful in seperating hydrogen and oxygen, but you would have to save them both up in a tank over a period of time. Large hydrogen fuel tank...best armor it.

Before you think I am being mean and that I don't think these would work, please understand differently. I think they could be quite usefull (which is why Wazzu has one such fighter itself...much different design), but you need to know that while they are a great weapon, they have many limitations.

OOC-Satellite communication is possible, I'm pretty sure some subs use GPS, but not at max depth. It has to be a very powerful signal, much more powerful than the GPS signals, which are quite weak. I know you can still relay data through to normal subs, if it isn't, correct me. I'm not a big expert on Sub systems.

But again, yes, they have limitations, in terms of sensors. But I'm trying to work that out.

OOC: Satelite communication is only possible when on the surface, at perescope depth (with antenna breaking the surface of the water), or if physically connected (via a wire) to a bouy. This is the same reason that many torpedos unravel a long, thin wire back to their submarine...so it can control their movements in a radioless environment.

Ships can recieve a very limited information message with ULF (Ultra-Low Frequency) radio. This requires even the huge "boomer" balistic missile submarines to trail a long wire behind them (they themselves are not long/big enough to have an internal antenna...land based antennas are supposedly miles long). Further, ULF supposedly causes problems with whales and dolphins. Many have suggested it is the reason for mass beachings, though with ULF so secret, there is little evidence for this.

Laser communications could work underwater, but even if you know exactly where to aim them (hard to do with a manuverable fighter), they can still be scattered by precipitate, blocked by phycisal objects, or bent by warm/cold areas, differences in salinity, currents, and other factors. Not too reliable at any great range...and it won't work well through a supercavitation bubble.

No matter what sensors or communications you put on subfighters, larger (silent and "deep") subs will have more room for the same, more room for operators, and more room for stealth systems (not to mention more power).

So they are a usefull addition to fleets, but not a replacement.

OOC: That's why the Federation Navy uses supercavitating weapons... but not supercavitating submarines. Even in a slightly post-modern world, I think that's a little bit much of a stretch.

OOC: Actually, Russia is working on supercavitating mini-subs now (the US is restricting efforts to bullets (for defense against supercav torpedos) and supercavitating torpedos of its own). Supercavitation does present a good way of getting from one place to another quickly. Loudly, but very quickly. It means being better able to choose your battles...though it doesn't give you the complete ability to do so.

"No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy."

Can't remember who said that.

I was under the impression that white noise "cancels out" other noise and thus basically the soundwaves generated near the white noise generators wouldnt be heard. But im no expert in that area so i dont know.

About satellite communication, since its possible to use lasers for mapping underwater, perhaps it would be possible to utilize lasers for satellite communication. Ofcourse the maximum depth at which the craft using the laser could be going with the signal actually getting to the satellite would be low and the speed would have to be slow also but it could possibly work. Also, general communication underwater is no problem when out of supercav or possibly even when in supercav. The russians recently developed a kind of electro-magnetic comms system that wouldnt be stopped by obstacles and works for long ranges underwater.

Then on the navigation and detection when underwater. The US navy allready uses a Laser Electro-Optics Identification System which provides detailed imaging of the area where it is directed. Since if the supercav vessel uses fins for guidance, the laser imaging systems could be positioned to the fins and thus voilâ you have information of the geography of your surroundings. Laser communications wouldnt work underwater but for mapping they would work.

Also, about the hydrogen fuel. Yeah, the tanks in my bigger ships are below several meters of armor and deep in the ship so hitting them would need you to gut half of the ship.

The biggest advantage of supercavitating sub-fighters altough they lack the volume to have anywhere near as much equipment as a larger sub, is that they are so damn fast. With proper turbojets, a sub-fighter could literally run circles around an old style submarine and it could use its active sonar with less fear for its life than the larger sub using its active sonar. The large sub would be a very very big target for a small and agile sub-fighter which could even carry enough armament to hull the larger sub. Sub-fighters themselves are bad replacements for an entire fleet because of their limited range mainly. Thus i for one have also supercav capital subs one of which is a carrier type for my sub-fighters.

OOC-Yeah, that electro-comm thing, I head about that. I wasn't sure if it worked. But I'll take whatever I can.

Anyway, these were never intended as fleet replacements. They're basically submarine killers, because there really isn't any kind of defense subs have against them. They supercav in, slow down, fire, supercav out. You could really carry them on the "Sea Archer" USV platform the USN is making. Although they probably have some useful applications in terms of Anti-surface warfare as well.