NationStates Jolt Archive

Attican sonar operators would be increasingly reporting unidentified contacts in the deep water off the continental shelf, just outside of the Attican zone of control. These contacts are literally larger than anything tracked before and have a habit of fading away into the ocean noise just as easily as they are picked up.

Attican=ACS?

No.

Further north, a large sonar contact can be found runing parallel to the Atticna CBG.

The contact is strong, yet no transmissions of any kind can be detected yet.

The AMS Dunkelmagier, a Los Angeles Class Attack sub, is detached from the CBG in order to attempt recon on these traces. It is authorized to go into International waters, but not to fire.

The trace continues, edging closer to the CBG, yet still in International Waters, even if only by a few hundred feet.

The AMS Dunkelmagier draws closer to the unidentified signal.

OOC: McLeod, what happened at that trial, or has it not occured yet?

The second large contact appears to be on a course parallel to the construction of the ocean section of the Attican seawall. It seems to be running along the top of a thermal layer... thus breaking up its signature into intermittent spurts.

The AMS Dunkelmagier draws closer to the unidentified signal.

OOC: which one?

IC: There is a large rush of noise through the passive sonar arrays on the Dunkelmagier, as a silent ocean becomes filled with loud static noises.

OOC: Yours.

IC:

Captain:" Near-Surface, prepare for periscope. "The captain takes to the periscope.

OOC: McLeod, what happened at that trial, or has it not occured yet?

OOC: Not occured yet.

IC: Through the periscope, all that can be seen is a small buoy with what appears to be a sonar decoy fitted.

IC:

The Submarine fires a torpedo at the decoy.

The second contact appears to be nearing the border between international and Attican waters.

The decoy explodes leaving an empty ocean behind it.

The Attican Submarine then goes to check out the other signal that is nearing the border. The CBG, also alerted, launches 2 waves of 10 AF-100s each to also check out the signal.

The Attican Submarine then goes to check out the other signal that is nearing the border. The CBG, also alerted, launches 2 waves of 10 AF-100s each to also check out the signal.

OOC: Somehow this seems a little unrealistic. Sending 20 aircraft in to an unknown area with no naval support?

OOC: Considering it is my territory, and they can fly relatively high... plus a large signal could mean an invasion fleet. They want aerial reconaissance first.

The Attican Submarine then goes to check out the other signal that is nearing the border. The CBG, also alerted, launches 2 waves of 10 AF-100s each to also check out the signal.

OOC: Is the CBG near the seawall construction zone? If so, okay... Also, wouldn't the AF-100s be too small and fast to carry ASW gear?

The second contact continues on its slow approach towards the border... however, what the contact exactly is cannot yet be determined. All that is immediately obvious is that it is BIG.

OOC: They are standard CV AF-100s.

The AF-100s break up, 2 going straight towards the signal at 30,000ft, the rest going about 5 degrees off at 50,000ft, just to be within striking distance.

OOC: Yes, the CBG is by the seawall construction zone (over 100mi completed)

OOC: They are standard CV AF-100s.

The AF-100s break up, 2 going straight towards the signal at 30,000ft, the rest going about 5 degrees off at 50,000ft, just to be within striking distance.

OOC: Yes, the CBG is by the seawall construction zone (over 100mi completed)

Well, all the AF-100s see is empty ocean at the surface. However, the contact seems to split in two. One continues to run parallel to the wall, just skirting the invisible line separating international and Attican seas, and the other contact (equally as large on sonar) seems to heading on a more direct course for the wall.

The 2 fighters at 30kft go towards the signal heading into Attican waters, the other 2 go to the one skimming the border.

The 2 fighters at 30kft go towards the signal heading into Attican waters, the other 2 go to the one skimming the border.

Unless they are equipped with sonobuoys, the equipment to pick up the signal from the sonobuoys, and a backseater to watch the sonar display... the fighters won't see a thing.

ACS: Anything that the onland radar and sonar stations, including the CBG sonar, sees, will be relayed to the fighters, either as instructions or as nav points for the Nav-AI.

From teh 'empty sea behind the Attican submarine, still in international waters, it seems as if a peice of the sea-floor has risen up and starte dmoving towards the other signalat speed.

The returns are somewhat distorted, and the only conclusion that can be drawn is that whatever is making these returns is both big, and man-made.

The submarine stops, and turns around to face the signal.

ACS: Anything that the onland radar and sonar stations, including the CBG sonar, sees, will be relayed to the fighters, either as instructions or as nav points for the Nav-AI.

In that case, the fighters will still be flying over empty water... following tracks that are in deep, running through the top of a thermal layer. The second track continues on course for the border... but has not yet crossed it.

The Fighters, reporting seeing nothing, tell this to the CBG. The CBG detaches the other Los Angeles Class Attack Sub, the AMS Hohenzollern, to identify the signal heading towards the border.

The signal continues towards the staionary Attican submarine, still accelerating.

Captain: "Operator, attempt to identify that signal"
Operator: "Yes sir!"
Captain: "Comm Officer, are we within Attican borders?"
Comm Officer: "Yes sir..."
Captain: "Tell the object to cease its movements or it will be fired upon"
Comm officer: "Yes sir."

The Fighters, reporting seeing nothing, tell this to the CBG. The CBG detaches the other Los Angeles Class Attack Sub, the AMS Hohenzollern, to identify the signal heading towards the border.

The track heading towards the border now appears to be slowly rising through the thermals... again, its sonar signature is unidentified and large. The track running parallel to the seawall appears to be rising at the same rate as its counterpart.

OOC: Does my Submarine see anything?

Captain: "Operator, attempt to identify that signal"
Operator: "Yes sir!"
Captain: "Comm Officer, are we within Attican borders?"
Comm Officer: "Yes sir..."
Captain: "Tell the object to cease its movements or it will be fired upon"
Comm officer: "Yes sir."

OOC1: this is all in international waters hense the "still in international waters" bit in the re-appearance post

OOC2 - how do you tell a submarine object to stop? Shout at it?

IC: The track rushes past the Attican submarine, skimming the Attican border, but still not crossing over.

OOC: THat doesnt mean the comm officer was CORRECT.

OOC2: Actually, yes. Most submarines CAN hear what is said in other submarines.

IC: The Attican Submarine begins a pursuit pattern.

OOC: THat doesnt mean the comm officer was CORRECT.

OOC2: Actually, yes. Most submarines CAN hear what is said in other submarines.

IC: The Attican Submarine begins a pursuit pattern.

OOC: Two good points

IC: The track accelerates, easily pulling away from teh Attican submarine, before diving towards an open ocean trench.

The Attican Submarine continues its pursuit to the lowest possible diving depth, although falling behind.

---Message to McLeod---
From: Attican Ministry of Defense
To: McLeod

We request your assistance in detecting what vehicles are being used off of the Attican coast. They might also pose a threat to FPC.

OOC: THat doesnt mean the comm officer was CORRECT.

OOC2: Actually, yes. Most submarines CAN hear what is said in other submarines.

IC: The Attican Submarine begins a pursuit pattern.

OOC: Not if both submarines are maneuvering and running at speed.

IC: The two tracks near the wall appear to be approaching the surface. The parallel track maintains its speed while the track nearing the border is picking up.

The Attican Submarine continues its pursuit to the lowest possible diving depth, although falling behind.

---Message to McLeod---
From: Attican Ministry of Defense
To: McLeod

We request your assistance in detecting what vehicles are being used off of the Attican coast. They might also pose a threat to FPC.


--Message to Attican Empire--
From: MAFCCP
To: Attican Empire

Very well, we will dispatch our nearest ASW assests. They will arrive in 38 minutes time.

The Attican Submarine continues a course to intercept the object closing in on Attican borders on a head on course.

As the Shelford ASW patrol craft closes on the area at cruising speed, the track that had disappeared into the trench re-emerged, and raced along clsoe to the sea bed, heading for the Attican border again.

From: Attican Ministry of Defense
To: McLeod

We request McLeods support in a rash action. We would like to fire torpedoes at these unknown targets, as they have been apparently attempting to break Atticas borders.

The contact on course for Attican waters breaches the surface, according to the sonar track, and suddenly stops... about five miles from the border.
The second contact continues to run on its present course... staying about 100 feet below the surface.

OOC: Did it actually breach the surface?

OOC: Did it actually breach the surface?

OOC: Guess you won't know unless you send some fighters over there to check it out or something.

From: Attican Ministry of Defense
To: McLeod

We request McLeods support in a rash action. We would like to fire torpedoes at these unknown targets, as they have been apparently attempting to break Atticas borders.

From: MAFCCP
To Attican Ministry of Defence.

We will assist you in this attack. Please, give us time to bring in teh Shelford, then we can assist you. We will need support however, since the craft willl operate best if SAR (surface to air radar) an SSR (Surface-surface radar) can be shut down. please bring teh CBG closer to us, then we can conecntrate on attacking with having to defend against any other threats first.

The power of a CBG might also be enough of a threat to drive the other tracks away if it was close enough.

OOC: ACS, the fighters have been following the tracks also...

IC:
From: Attican Ministry of Defense
To: McLeod

We cannot move the CBG. There are other bogie shadows, and the CBG is guarding against them.

OOC: ACS, the fighters have been following the tracks also...

IC:
From: Attican Ministry of Defense
To: McLeod

We cannot move the CBG. There are other bogie shadows, and the CBG is guarding against them.

The fighters don't really see much of anything at first. However, one of the pilots then notices a small vehicle in the water at the same location as the stopped contact releasing a large antenna into the air. The vehicle is riding the waves, maintaining its position three miles out from the border.

OOC: ACS, the fighters have been following the tracks also...

IC:
From: Attican Ministry of Defense
To: McLeod

We cannot move the CBG. There are other bogie shadows, and the CBG is guarding against them.

To: Attican Ministry of Defense
From: MAFCCP

Very well, but if the threat is too high, we will not laucnh an attack that could endanger our ship. Please re-consider. The River class is a good class, but requires support to be effective. We will help guard against the bogie threats if you can fulfil our request to move closer to the border

The aircraft continue their circles over the target (until it starts moving again).

The antenna extends to a full height of 50 feet. One would almost think that it could be pushed over into the water in a bad wind. Electronic detection gear on the fighters would pick up that the antenna is probably a high frequency radar boom... and it is pointed at the seawall.

The track that had emerged from the trench suddenly slowed, and pulled to a halt directly in line with the Attican CBG, on the borderline into Attican waters.

OOC: Radar Boom?

OOC: Radar Boom?

OOC: Yeah... a radar that is extended out on a boom.

OOC: And it does what? Just standard radar scanning?

OOC: And it does what? Just standard radar scanning?

OOC: Yeah... it's a big, retractable radar antenna... just like I said.

OOC: What is the international policy on espionage from international territory?

OOC: What is the international policy on espionage from international territory?

OOC: As long as it is in international waters, there's really not all that much you can do except try to jam it. Shooting at it would be a bad idea unless it drifted into your territory.

The Shelford arrives on the scene, and heads for the protection of the Attican CBG.

Meanwhile, the track in front of the CBG begins to rise slowly, still in international waters.

OOC: What if my fighter skimmed the surface and broke off the boom? Also, if I attempted radio contact and there was no response...

OOC: What if my fighter skimmed the surface and broke off the boom? Also, if I attempted radio contact and there was no response...

OOC:

1) You hit it, your fighter would crash.

2) You still couldn't do anything. It could be a radio malfunction

OOC: What if my fighter skimmed the surface and broke off the boom? Also, if I attempted radio contact and there was no response...

The pilot would then have to fly in front of a very high power radar... probably sterilizing him for life. And there would be no response on radio from the small craft.

OOC: If it is AIMED, cant the fighter come from the opposite direction?

OOC: If it is AIMED, cant the fighter come from the opposite direction?

OOC: What happens if the radar turns the boom to track the incoming target? Your pilot would be smart enough to know better... then again, if he gets a direct order from higher-up the chain... we'll see what happens.

OOC: If it turned to track the aircraft in an attempt to damage something (it could be seen as an attack), then Attica would respond appropriately, since it would be considered an attack.

OOC: If it turned to track the aircraft in an attempt to damage something (it could be seen as an attack), then Attica would respond appropriately, since it would be considered an attack.

OOC: The most pitiful excuse for an attack ever.

OOC: If it turned to track the aircraft in an attempt to damage something (it could be seen as an attack), then Attica would respond appropriately, since it would be considered an attack.

OOC: It is a high-powered radar... that's why ground crews don't stand in front of airplane radars when they test them. The sterilization of your pilot would be the natural consequence of doing something stupid... not an attack. However, it is your move.

OOC: So Sterilization is not an excuse to defend oneself?

OOC: So Sterilization is not an excuse to defend oneself?

Dare i say, flying into a radar is a pretty stupid thing to do anyway?

Now stop the OOC again.


IC:

This is the Captain of the Shelfrord do we have permission to enter Attican waters to seek protection from your CBG?

OOC: So Sterilization is not an excuse to defend oneself?

OOC: A pilot would know better than to fly directly in front of a high-powered radar that is actively scanning... that's not an attack. As I said, that would be the consequence of HIS actions... if he decided to try that hairball stunt.

OOC: So a high powered radar that begins aiming at a fighter is not an attack? Come on.

OOC: So a high powered radar that begins aiming at a fighter is not an attack? Come on.

OOC: Firing a weapon at a fighter is an attack... pointing your radar at something that it approaching you at high speed is only prudent. Stop trying to twist this with a semantic word game and just play.

OOC: If you are well aware it is a high powered radar, than it is an attack.

OOC: If you are well aware it is a high powered radar, than it is an attack.

OOC: Since when is a radar a weapon? I was simply telling you the possible consequences of your pilot's actions... calling that an attack is like saying God attacked you because you walked out into a thunderstorm and got hit by lightning.

OOC: Radar is a weapon if it harms someone, and you harm the person knowingly.

OOC: Radar is a weapon if it harms someone, and you harm the person knowingly.

OOC: You assumed that the radar operator was harming someone knowingly... the only way the radar will hurt the pilot is if he tries to ram it, thereby flying close enough to absorb enough radiation. Jesus christ... do you have to have everything spelled out for you?

OOC: YOu are the one who stated the radar would track him instead.

ATTICAN, PLEASE STOP OOC ARGUING WITH EVERYONE. JUST GET ON WITH IT.

OOC: YOu are the one who stated the radar would track him instead.

OOC: I said it might if the plane started to approach the craft... and that there would be natural consequences if it flew too close to the radar. You have the facts before you. Quit being obstinate and just do what you're going to do.

IC: The AF-100 pilot turns on his radar jammer (yes, AF-100s have them.)

IC: The AF-100 pilot turns on his radar jammer (yes, AF-100s have them.)

IC: The radar jammer dampens the strength of the radar by about 25%... however, it is still scanning the distant sea wall at reduced capability.

IC: The other AF-100 turns on his radar jammer. THey also call for replacement fighters so they can land and refuel (two AF-100s take off from the carrier).

Radar track does *not* = attack

It's happened plenty of times IRL. One of my father's friends was a Tomcat pilot - the Iranians used to track their squadron with Hawk (SAM) radars when they were flying around in the Persian Gulf.

Attican Ampire, this is the Shelford. Do we have permission to continue as "planned?"

IC: The other AF-100 turns on his radar jammer. THey also call for replacement fighters so they can land and refuel (two AF-100s take off from the carrier).

The radar's strength is now down to 50%. However, threat warning receivers on the sensor craft begin recording information on the frequencies and power levels the jammers operate at.

McLeodian ship - no, you do not. If you enter Attican waters, you WILL be fired upon.

The two AF-100's AI systems begin variating the jammers frequency, and begin inputting pirate code to corrupt the radar image.

"You ask for our help, then turn around and threaten us? I hope you get crushed like the bug you are. Shelford out"

McLeodian ship - no, you do not. If you enter Attican waters, you WILL be fired upon.

The two AF-100's AI systems begin variating the jammers frequency, and begin inputting pirate code to corrupt the radar image.

The sensor craft records all of this, every transmission from those fighters being valuable data about how the Atticans conduct electronic warfare.

One of the AF-100's engines has a spark out, possibly due to a splash of water. THe engine fails, and it crashes into the water, right into the radar thingy.

One of the AF-100's engines has a spark out, possibly due to a splash of water. THe engine fails, and it crashes into the water, right into the radar thingy.

The unmanned sensor craft's fuel cells explode when the fighter crashes into it, tearing the hull into two large chunks. These chunks quickly break up and sink into the water.

The second contact, seemingly forgotten, begins to surface rapidly and pick up speed.

As the SHelford returns to its FPC base, a cannister is released over the side, roughyl between the tracks.

On reaching 50 feet, the cannister bursts, and a message is transmitted to both tracks, and can only be recieved by those tracks using recievers and encoders designed specifcally by mcLeodian engineers.

"All units, unveil"

OOC: Actually, two of my fighters were also following that target. Please read my posts.

The two other fighters begin rapid pursuit of the target.

The CBG, alarmed by the large number of targets appearing, scrambles all of its fighters. The Reichsluftwaffe bases in Attica do the same. The Attican base in FPC mobilizes its weapons.

OOC: Actually, two of my fighters were also following that target. Please read my posts.

The two other fighters begin rapid pursuit of the target.

OOC: I said "seemingly"... the use of which is called "dramatic effect." Why don't you read mine before you are so quick to be critical?

IC: This contact appears to be the true source of the large sonar signature as the sea gushes up from undernearth it. Within a few moments, the massive submarine is cruising on the surface at full speed. Smaller, faster contacts appear to break out from undernearth the super-submarine and wide ports open on top.

The scrambled fighters from the CBG head towards this new target, with anti-air and sea weapons equipped.

Would it be possible for Felimid MacFal to be brought up to speed with the recent events? We were proccupied with other matters at the time this inceedent occured, and we would be more than willing to help out, given the right information.

OOC: just a brief rundown if you would be so kind. dont feel like reading 5 pages worth o' stuff.

Prince Michael Tudor braced as the deck beneath him lurched upwards.

The Monitor was back.

As soon as the sleek lines of the subamarine broke the surface, hangar doors on top opened, and Peacekeeper fighters deployed rapidly, circling over the ship, still in international waters.

Below the water, the large moonpool doors open, and numerous Raptor and Hurricane sub-fighters deploy into the sea surounding the battle-carrier.

Moments later, tehy are followed by an Eagle-eye AWACS craft topsides, and a Barracuda SWACS below the surface.

OOC: Sub-Fighters?

The scrambled fighters from the CBG head towards this new target, with anti-air and sea weapons equipped.

The fighters would watch as fighters in Federation Aerospace Forces markings surge from the ports, across the deck of the ship, and take to the air.

By the time all is said and done, 4 FB-22s, 8 XF-15 ACTIVE fighters, 16 F/A-34 "Gremlin" VTOL fighters, and 32 U/F-11 UCAVs are in the air in a BARCAP around their carrier.

http://phalanx.i8.com/facs/naval/tiamat.gif

In an almost mirror image, thirty-two Manta-class unmanned combat submarines and thirty-two Mako-class submarine fighters shape up into a SEABARCAP to protect the underside of the carrier.

OOC: Sub-Fighters?

OOC: opposite equivalent of normal fighters. Limited range and tactical usage other than as a show of force or an attack craft.

The 18 fighters in the air at 50,000ft also drop down to keep check on this new bogey.

OOC: Are there any ACS markings on the sub?

OOC2: So, my AF-100s outclass them or what?

Message from the Talaaxian Trade Ministry
To the Attican Government

The Talaaxian government would like to send a large trade delegation to Attica to bring about trade between our two nations. The delegation would be made up of 150 various civilian personnell ranging from economists to accounants and a force of 25 security personnell. The delegation is ready to leave for your capitol immediately if you agree to accept them.
End Message

OOC: This is a non-secret message. Also Attica we are offering this delegation as a sort of human shield against attack on your nation. We recommend that you accept them.

The 18 fighters in the air at 50,000ft also drop down to keep check on this new bogey.

OOC: Are there any ACS markings on the sub?

OOC2: So, my AF-100s outclass them or what?

OOC2: If aimed at me, then yes they outclass the subfighters. Just a shame you can't hit the sub-fighters from way up there.

To Talaax - We accept. Be careful, there are unidentified vessels and aircraft, possibly hostile.

To McLeod: OOC: Shame that I sent my Reichsluftwaffe aircraft after yours. Their forces include VTOL craft.

The 18 fighters in the air at 50,000ft also drop down to keep check on this new bogey.

OOC: Are there any ACS markings on the sub?

OOC2: So, my AF-100s outclass them or what?

OOC: The numbering and anechoic paint scheme on the large submarine are consistent with FACS submarines.

To Talaax - We accept. Be careful, there are unidentified vessels and aircraft, possibly hostile.

To McLeod: OOC: Shame that I sent my Reichsluftwaffe aircraft after yours. Their forces include VTOL craft.

Right. SO you sent VTOLs against my sub-fighters? They are all destroyed. (not my sub-fighters, your VTOLs) And i never fired a shot.

To Talaax - We accept. Be careful, there are unidentified vessels and aircraft, possibly hostile.

To McLeod: OOC: Shame that I sent my Reichsluftwaffe aircraft after yours. Their forces include VTOL craft.

The delegation is on the way. They will arrive in apporximately 6 hours ( NS time ). They are flying without escort and we request that they be treated as diplomats with diplomatic immunity. An attack on them will be seen as an act of war on Talaax.

OOC: Well, what are your subfighters? You state they are low-class fighters? Or do you mean they are SUBMARINE fighters?

OOC: Well, what are your subfighters? You state they are low-class fighters? Or do you mean they are SUBMARINE fighters?

Well done. You realised. Hence the "below the surface" quote. The Peacekeepers are the aerial fighters

OOC: I will ignore them then. I have had LONG discussions on the mirc chat about the possibilities of Submarine fighters, and we decided that they are just too impractical. They would either be too slow, or too weak. Unless you can describe HOW they work.

The delegation is on the way. They will arrive in apporximately 6 hours ( NS time ). They are flying without escort and we request that they be treated as diplomats with diplomatic immunity. An attack on them will be seen as an act of war on Talaax.

We only hope that the Attican Empire will show more kindness and good faith to your delegation than they did the last peace delegation the Federation sent to that land. Our people were lucky to walk away with their lives.

The FNS Tiamat will be more than happy to provide safe escort for your delegation through international airspace.

OOC: I will ignore them then. I have had LONG discussions on the mirc chat about the possibilities of Submarine fighters, and we decided that they are just too impractical. They would either be too slow, or too weak. Unless you can describe HOW they work.

OOC: As soon as you describe how the FC engines in your jets work.

The project to build the Monitor was undertaken by four nations over a period of 21 years PER NATION. This led to breakthroughs in designs and capabilites. Using essentially the same construction techniques as the Monitor, with the exception of scale. It is essentially an advanced submersible.

No escort is necessary. We have faith that our delegation will be unharmed.

OOC: Then wouldnt your fighters be considered extremely high tech?

The delegation is on the way. They will arrive in apporximately 6 hours ( NS time ). They are flying without escort and we request that they be treated as diplomats with diplomatic immunity. An attack on them will be seen as an act of war on Talaax.

We only hope that the McLeodian Empire will show more kindness and good faith to your delegation than they did the last peace delegation the Federation sent to that land. Our people were lucky to walk away with their lives.

The FNS Tiamat will be more than happy to provide safe escort for your delegation through international airspace.

Hel-lo. I don't remember attacking your delegation. I believe that was Attican.

No escort is necessary. We have faith that our delegation will be unharmed.

The Tiamat's air wing will still keep an eye on things, just to make sure that you get to the border safely. Attican pilots have a reputation for being reckless and trigger happy, as was proven again when one of their much vaunted AF-100s crashed into a surveillance boat because it flew too low.

The delegation is on the way. They will arrive in apporximately 6 hours ( NS time ). They are flying without escort and we request that they be treated as diplomats with diplomatic immunity. An attack on them will be seen as an act of war on Talaax.

We only hope that the McLeodian Empire will show more kindness and good faith to your delegation than they did the last peace delegation the Federation sent to that land. Our people were lucky to walk away with their lives.

The FNS Tiamat will be more than happy to provide safe escort for your delegation through international airspace.

Hel-lo. I don't remember attacking your delegation. I believe that was Attican.

OOC: *Facepalm*... typo... bad bad typo... I didn't even see that... so sorry.

OOC: Lol, i did, i just didnt want to say anything, i wanted to see mcleods reaction.

OOC: I kinda panicked, trying to rememebr when i attacked ACS. I really couldn't rememebr it.

OOC2: yes, so if you want i can RP them as more Peacekeepers on the surface.

IC: The Peacekeepers continue their patrols.

OOC: RP them as peacekeepers.

OOC: RP them as peacekeepers.

OOC: So thats another 24 peackeepers launched.

OOC: I imagine that submarine fighters would be propelled using the same combined aquajet/propellor combination system as high-speed (relatively) unmanned underwater combat craft.

OOC: I still outnumber you.

OOC: I still outnumber you.

OOC: How is that?

OOC: I have more fighters in the sky than McLeod.

OOC: I have more fighters in the sky than McLeod.

OOC: But do you have more fighters in the sky than both of our air wings combined? :)

OOC: Over his submarine, no. In the sky right now, I beleive so. I have about 170 aircraft in the sky.

OOC: Over his submarine, no. In the sky right now, I beleive so. I have about 170 aircraft in the sky.

OOC: All from your carrier?

OOC: 70 from the carrier, 100 from attican land bases.

OOC: 70 from the carrier, 100 from attican land bases.

OOC: I thought all of your land bases were far away from the coast.. so, unless you have an aerial refueling capability... those planes should be low on fuel and have to return to base soon.

OOC: The aircraft have long ranges (about 1000mi). The airbases are 200mi from coast, in central Attica. The VTOL division can land on the carrier though. They can only do 1000mi on full tanks, which slows them down though. They have 3/4 tanks, but they can reach the enemy and fight for a while.

Once the Aerospace Forces fighters are established in their BARCAP, a sleek delta form races out across the deck and into the air... the only way such a large plane could get aloft from the carrier can be determined from the tell-tale higher pitched rumble of its hybrid pulse-detonation engines. The single EB-4 "Wraith" quickly climbs in altitude above the carrier to take the center position in the BARCAP... and it is loaded for bear to defend against any enemy aircraft that might try to come against the Tiamat

OOC: What are its specs?

OOC: What are its specs?

OOC: http://phalanx.i8.com/facs/aerospace/wraith.jpg
It is about the size of a B-1; however, it carries 32 hypersonic kinetic kill air-to-air missiles, low-power laser blinders, and eight JASSM cruise missiles instead of the heavy bombardment loadout of the B-1. The EB-4 is primarily designed for standoff air dominance. The hybrid pulse detonation engines give it enough thrust and speed to perform that role, despite its size.

The Tiamat and its carrier wing continue their patrol of the international border both above and below the waves, while the large submarine force already assembled in the sector sits silently on high alert. The U-LIDS wolfpack also rests silently on the bottom of the continental shelf... waiting for the order from CINCNAVCOM to hunt.

The First Expeditionary Battle Force also gets underway from its staging point in the test range it has been practicing in the past few months. At best speed, it will take about a week for the EBF to arrive.

The CBG and its fighters, constantly refueling in waves, are prepared for combat, as are Attica's land troops.

The Secretary-General announces in a public broadcast that the arrival of the Tiamat and Monitor, respective flagship carriers of the FACS and McLeod, in international waters off the Attican coast was part of a pre-planned move to show the Attican Empire that its aggression will not be stood for any longer.

The Sec-Gen said, "We have had every indication that the Atticans were preparing to resume their imperialist and hegemonic behavior against their neighbor, the FPC. The refusal of the Attican Empire to respect the FPC's right to self-determination by leaving, as duly requested, only proves our suspicions correct.

"As I speak, the Tiamat and Monitor Battle Groups are both stationed off the Attican coast, along with over forty Federation Navy attack submarines. The First Expeditionary Battle Force, based on the Galapagos and Joint Forces Commant mobile offshore base, are en route to reinforce FPC defenses against any Attican aggression.

"I have a message for the leaders of the Attican Empire. Stand down and go home. Leave the FPC. Send your carrier back to port. If you initiate hostilities, we and our allies will respond with all due force. There will be no hesitation. There will be no negotiation. Step back from the brink, or be prepared to face the consequences of what is waiting for you."

We support Attican Empire.

We support Attican Empire.

Then you support aggression, hypocrisy, imperialism, and the use of force to deny people their rights. Shame on you.

We support Attican Empire.

Then you support aggression (check), hypocrisy, imperialism(you say that like its a bad thing), and the use of force to deny people their rights. (oh well) Shame on you.

OOC: (bump)

OOC: ACS, do you think that FPC instantly declaring I am no longer on his border to be a godmod? Or not.

OOC: ACS, do you think that FPC instantly declaring I am no longer on his border to be a godmod? Or not.

OOC: The regional move would not be instantaneous. I imagine that, for game terms, it would take 2 RL days to complete.

*Armed spy trawler Ithyca watches with amusement from international waters. Salvage ship Cabron begins recovery of downed AF-100 for scientific purposes*

Terristan == Ignored (They dont have this equipment, plus they have been ignored by me indefinately)

*Cabron finishes salvaging of AF-100 parts*
*Ithyca maintains position and is supplied by the Yuri


ooc: Attica you are pathetic, when things go vaguely bad in your favour you respond by stupid amounts of force or just ignore.

The two submarine carrier fleets of the FACS and McLeod continue their patrols, shadowing the Attican carrier battle group and making their presence felt. The forty-odd Federation submarines in the seas below begin to prepare for their pre-planned target runs - if the order is given - and practice emergency drills. The First Expeditionary Battle Force is, by this time, nearly on station. The FNS Galapagos is the first to arrive and links up with the Tiamat battle group, providing them with an amphibious warfare capability. The Joint Operations Command mobile offshore base, home to the Third Air Battle Wing, the 22nd Army Rapid Reaction Force, and the 18th Naval Deployment-Amphibious Unit, will arrive at its station (400 miles out from the edge of the Attican sea border) in a few days.

The Monitor is re-enforced by the arrival of the 1st CBG, three more River class boats, and the 1st, 4th, and 5th Patrol Groups. The River class boats travel witht he CBG, and the Patrol Groups head along more of the Attican/International water border.

Further forces en route include:

2nd, 6th, and 7th Patrol Groups, 25 Type-45 destroyers, and another 4 River class boats.

Mobilisation of the 2nd CBG is expected to take place sometime in the next fortnight.

Oh right, well heres what im sending:
• 12 Slava-M class cruisers
• 15 Kirov class heavy cruisers
• 20 Soyuz III class battleships
• 37 Sovremenny class destroyers
• 52 Udaloy II class frigates
• 20 Korsar class frigates
• 16 Tikhiy class stealth destroyers
• 12 Yekaterinburg class carriers
• 36 Oscar 3 class attack submarines

OOC: Can anyone say overkill? Jesus Christ... can anyone even move around with that many ships in the sector? 12 carriers?

IC: The Federation respectfully asks the nation of Dark terror to send its fleet home, where it belongs. We have no issue with you unless you create one.

OOC: Can anyone say overkill? Jesus Christ... can anyone even move around with that many ships in the sector? 12 carriers?
OOC: Believe me, I'm not suprised.

Attica, check TGs. And don't delete it it may be needed later on.

OOC: Can anyone say overkill? Jesus Christ... can anyone even move around with that many ships in the sector? 12 carriers?
OOC: Believe me, I'm not suprised.

OOC: This is getting just ridiculous...

OOC:
Yep, overkill. Thats always part of Bisonic Doctorine. I have 11,000 artillery pieces for that very same reason. That is, however, my entire fleet except my missile boats.


And I can afford it, $4 tril a year mil budget.
IC:
We have an alliance with Attican Empire, and will honor it.

OOC: I'm still trying to understand why you follow the Soviet model... it didn't work.

IC: Keep your ships in international waters and away from ours. Remember that you are supporting the aggressors.

OOC: I'm still trying to understand why you follow the Soviet model... it didn't work.

IC: Keep your ships in international waters and away from ours. Remember that you are supporting the aggressors.
OOC:
I have better training and oh yeah an either frightening or all-consuming economy.

Other than that, if I had a chechnya situaiton Id gas it and not bother with terrorist attacks. Im far more extreme.

OOC:I have better training and oh yeah an either frightening or all-consuming economy.

Other than that, if I had a chechnya situaiton Id gas it and not bother with terrorist attacks. Im far more extreme.

OOC: Good for you. My country's economy is frigthening and population is ~ 700 million larger than yours. This was supposed to be RP... not a dick measuring contest.

OOC:I have better training and oh yeah an either frightening or all-consuming economy.

Other than that, if I had a chechnya situaiton Id gas it and not bother with terrorist attacks. Im far more extreme.

OOC: Good for you. My country's economy is frigthening and population is ~ 700 million larger than yours. This was supposed to be RP... not a dick measuring contest.
OOC:
Were forgetting Allanea conquered gond0r ICly and gave it to me... theres an extre 450 mil people.

And I bet you dont have 90% tax rate and 33% military budget. So there.
IC:
We will defend Attican Empire, although helping him attack is currently being debated in the Bisonic Duma [just some puppets who had nobody to run against].

OOC:
Were forgetting Allanea conquered gond0r ICly and gave it to me... theres an extre 450 mil people.

OOC: How convenient. Should all the rest of us bring in our "puppet" nations, too? :roll:

And I bet you dont have 90% tax rate and 33% military budget. So there.

OOC: I don't need to do that in order to have a realistic, functional military. The smart people say that you shouldn't spend more than 4-5% of GDP on your military to prevent negative effects on your economy. The Soviet model just wasn't the way to do it... neither is the North Korean model.

IC:We will defend Attican Empire, although helping him attack is currently being debated in the Bisonic Duma [just some puppets who had nobody to run against].

IC: Seeing as we have no intention of firing unless we are attacked by the Atticans, move forward at your own peril. If you escalate the conflict further beyond its natural level before your destabilizing intervention, we will call for an international alliance to move in to counter your aggression. Your reputation preceeds you.

We wont fire on you until we are fired upon... or until attican is fired upon.


And I have an all-consuming economy, deal with it.

We wont fire on you until we are fired upon... or until attican is fired upon.

And I have an all-consuming economy, deal with it.

OOC: Please try to be more careful in separating OOC and IC comments in the future. Anyways, looks like you and Attica are going to be the aggressors then...

IC: The Atticans will not be fired upon unless they shoot first, in which case our allied forces have every right to defend themselves. If your fleet interferes with our right to self-defense, we will consider that accordingly. Tread carefully.

OOC: Blockades are an act of war.

OOC: Blockades are an act of war.

OOC: The naval blockade during the Cuban Missile Crisis was not considered an act of war. This is much in the same vein... except, in this situation, your nation is overtly threatening to impinge on another nation's right to self-determination by force and is trying to import arms to that effect. It's even more clear cut than the Cuban Missile Crisis was.

OOC: Importing military arms for a nations military is not an act of war. The US only got away with it because they had massive ICBM barrages, and anyone saying it was an act of war would have led to nuclear holocaust.

Look at whats in store for your blockade:
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~steven/images/ss-n-19-new.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/spanish/especiales/0203malvinas_galeria/images/sheffield.jpg

OOC: Importing military arms for a nations military is not an act of war. The US only got away with it because they had massive ICBM barrages, and anyone saying it was an act of war would have led to nuclear holocaust.

OOC: I didn't say it was an act of war... I said that the Federation would be attempting to block those ships from joining with the Attican fleet because they believe the Atticans are going to use them in a war they've threatened against the FPC. The power differential between the Attican Empire and the Federation is much, much larger than the power differential between the US and USSR in the Cold War. Do you really WANT to declare war on the FACS? Think about it.

Look at whats in store for your blockade:
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~steven/images/ss-n-19-new.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/spanish/especiales/0203malvinas_galeria/images/sheffield.jpg

OOC: How nice for you... the Federation Navy is almost entirely submarine. And all of the FN forces deployed in the area, except for the Mobile Offshore Base that is 400 miles out from the end of the Attican sea border, are submarine. Or should I consider that an IC threat and act accordingly? Use your head.

OOC:
No, not yet. My fleet will simply pretend the blockade doesnt exist until its fired upon, in which case you started the war.

If its submarines you sohuld realize I have around 200 ASW helicopters and can get some Pelican ASW Ekranoplanes over there pretty damn quickly.


Submarines:

http://members.aol.com/HBBolten/SHINO5.JPG

OOC:
No, not yet. My fleet will simply pretend the blockade doesnt exist until its fired upon, in which case you started the war.

If its submarines you sohuld realize I have around 200 ASW helicopters and can get some Pelican ASW Ekranoplanes over there pretty damn quickly.



OOC: Why do I get the feeling that this is going to end up like EVERY conflict you get in to and everyone ends up ignoring you because your RP is totally unrealistic? ASW is not easy and you can't just sink submarines at will... especially not when the Mobile Offshore Base and the Tiamat are running combat air patrols that would keep a very close eye on your ASW assets. This should be RP... not a dick measuring contest, which you keep on trying to turn this into.

OOC:
No, not yet. My fleet will simply pretend the blockade doesnt exist until its fired upon, in which case you started the war.

If its submarines you sohuld realize I have around 200 ASW helicopters and can get some Pelican ASW Ekranoplanes over there pretty damn quickly.



OOC: Why do I get the feeling that this is going to end up like EVERY conflict you get in to and everyone ends up ignoring you because you're RP is totally unrealistic? ASW is not easy and you can't just sink submarines at will... especially not when the Mobile Offshore Base and the Tiamat are running combat air patrols that would keep a very close eye on your ASW assets. This should be RP... not a dick measuring contest, which you keep on trying to turn this into.
OOC:
If it moves, Water Disturbance Tracker finds it. Simple really. As for your aircraft- engaging my fleets air wings is a bad idea. Just a hint.


Then again I have 200 Helos with Sonar...

OOC:
No, not yet. My fleet will simply pretend the blockade doesnt exist until its fired upon, in which case you started the war.

If its submarines you sohuld realize I have around 200 ASW helicopters and can get some Pelican ASW Ekranoplanes over there pretty damn quickly.



OOC: Why do I get the feeling that this is going to end up like EVERY conflict you get in to and everyone ends up ignoring you because you're RP is totally unrealistic? ASW is not easy and you can't just sink submarines at will... especially not when the Mobile Offshore Base and the Tiamat are running combat air patrols that would keep a very close eye on your ASW assets. This should be RP... not a dick measuring contest, which you keep on trying to turn this into.
OOC:
If it moves, Water Disturbance Tracker finds it. Simple really. As for your aircraft- engaging my fleets air wings is a bad idea. Just a hint.


Then again I have 200 Helos with Sonar...

OOC: Again with the dick measuring.

You might be able to defend against his air assualt, but combined with my own, and land based heavy bomber, stealth bomber, attack aircraft, and cruise missile support, as well as naval engagements from submarine and surface elements you would fall. You would not survive the onslaught of two fleets, one in front and one behind.

OOC:
If it moves, Water Disturbance Tracker finds it. Simple really. As for your aircraft- engaging my fleets air wings is a bad idea. Just a hint.


Then again I have 200 Helos with Sonar...

OOC: Thank you for proving my point. Water Disturbance Tracker? Do you even realize how constantly the seas and everything in them are moving? You are not invincible... quit acting like it.

OOC: Again with the dick measuring.

You might be able to defend against his air assualt, but combined with my own, and land based heavy bomber, stealth bomber, attack aircraft, and cruise missile support, as well as naval engagements from submarine and surface elements you would fall. You would not survive the onslaught of two fleets, one in front and one behind.
OOC: I don't expect bison's loss report would be high anyways.

OOC:
If it moves, Water Disturbance Tracker finds it. Simple really. As for your aircraft- engaging my fleets air wings is a bad idea. Just a hint.


Then again I have 200 Helos with Sonar...

OOC: Thank you for proving my point. Water Disturbance Tracker? Do you even realize how constantly the seas and everything in them are moving? You are not invincible... quit acting like it.
OOC:
Eh... it can detect the presence of a submarine, not its location. That can be done by sonar and other goodies.


Mcleod- Ive had anti stealth radar since... what was it April, when Luporum gave me ADT tech. Now I use mainly laser radar.


And I can destroy your 2 fleets, the forces I deployed are bigger than both of em combined.

OOC: Again with the dick measuring.

You might be able to defend against his air assualt, but combined with my own, and land based heavy bomber, stealth bomber, attack aircraft, and cruise missile support, as well as naval engagements from submarine and surface elements you would fall. You would not survive the onslaught of two fleets, one in front and one behind.
OOC:
Land based bombers? How the hell will they get anywhere near my fleet? I have 1200 aircraft on those 12 carriers, you really think I cant intercept them?
stealth bomber- anti stealth radar which combines laser radar and a system which tracks their emisions. Not so stealth anymore.
attack aircraft- will be blown to bits. But they fly low! Well thats why man invented look-down radar.
cruise missile support- actually has some potential. But most should be shot down... unless my defenses are swamped with massive simultaneous launches.

OOC:
Eh... it can detect the presence of a submarine, not its location. That can be done by sonar and other goodies.

And I can destroy your 2 fleets, the forces I deployed are bigger than both of em combined.

OOC: And? Bigger does not mean better, necessarily... especially not when my submarine force is easily 20 years ahead of your surface ships in capability. Even if you did sink everything we've got out there, you would suffer such horrible losses that would make it a pyrrhic victory. Wars are nasty, ugly, horrible affairs... and you're threatening two relative big boys on the block. If this goes to a full-blown conflict, I'm expecting to take lots of casualties... so should you.

OOC: Again with the dick measuring.

You might be able to defend against his air assualt, but combined with my own, and land based heavy bomber, stealth bomber, attack aircraft, and cruise missile support, as well as naval engagements from submarine and surface elements you would fall. You would not survive the onslaught of two fleets, one in front and one behind.
OOC: I don't expect bison's loss report would be high anyways.

OOC: I'll ignore losses for him (i.e. ignore as many ships as i think should have been lost. Its not posting losses, just not letting him godmode)

DT- Why is it always about dick-measuring? The Monitor and the Los Angeles are armed with super-cavitating torpedoes with a range in excess of 20 miles and wire guidance systems (similar to TOW systems, which can be used at closer ranges only)

The amount of ships you have would make it unfeasible to resupply without massive convoys of supply ships. All i have to do is attack your convoys, then close in for the kill.

Face it, you cannot hope to win against an alliance of up to four nations against your fleet. Back down, this is not about you. It is about Atticans warmongering imperialistic attitude, and his desperate attmepts to take control of other countries (FPC and Terristan to name but two)

OOC: ACS would you expect to take huge casualties against my troops (Especially on my mainland)? You must remember, 2 years ago I began mobilizing my army. It is now mobilized with 1,000,000 men (divided of course into the seperate divisions and organizations).

OOC: I dont want control of Terristan. I just want to remove its government. Its somehow a desert swampland according to Terristan. Plus im ignoring it.

OOC: Again with the dick measuring.

You might be able to defend against his air assualt, but combined with my own, and land based heavy bomber, stealth bomber, attack aircraft, and cruise missile support, as well as naval engagements from submarine and surface elements you would fall. You would not survive the onslaught of two fleets, one in front and one behind.
OOC: I don't expect bison's loss report would be high anyways.

OOC: I'll ignore losses for him (i.e. ignore as many ships as i think should have been lost. Its not posting losses, just not letting him godmode)

DT- Why is it always about dick-measuring? The Monitor and the Los Angeles are armed with super-cavitating torpedoes with a range in excess of 20 miles and wire guidance systems (similar to TOW systems, which can be used at closer ranges only)

The amount of ships you have would make it unfeasible to resupply without massive convoys of supply ships. All i have to do is attack your convoys, then close in for the kill.

Face it, you cannot hope to win against an alliance of up to four nations against your fleet. Back down, this is not about you. It is about Atticans warmongering imperialistic attitude, and his desperate attmepts to take control of other countries (FPC and Terristan to name but two)
OOC:
If you can get close enough to my fleet, you can destroy it.

Torpedoes- ever heard of Shkval underwtaer rocket? Yeah it can destroy them with *some* success, though losses would still be there. At least my cruisers, battleships, and carriers have double hulls.

OOC: ACS would you expect to take huge casualties against my troops (Especially on my mainland)? You must remember, 2 years ago I began mobilizing my army. It is now mobilized with 1,000,000 men (divided of course into the seperate divisions and organizations).

OOC: Did I ever say anything about preparing for a land invasion? I would take casualties, though, based on how your forces react to mine... in the event of a land conflict. Do remember, though, that my forces are better equipped and better trained, though.

OOC: ACS would you expect to take huge casualties against my troops (Especially on my mainland)? You must remember, 2 years ago I began mobilizing my army. It is now mobilized with 1,000,000 men (divided of course into the seperate divisions and organizations).

OOC: My own active forces now number nearly 5,000,000, with another 7,500,000 in reserve. You are the aggressor and wrongful nation here Attican. Just remove your troops from FPC without invading like you said OOC to me, and you will avoid much blood shed amongst your nation and mine.

OOC: Just because you have that many troops doesnt mean you can get them there. I can shoot down your transports, and you cant drop 5,000,000 men instantly, I will systematically kill them. All I want to do is remove the government of FPC.

OOC:
Alright, fair enough. Now lets get this back to IC.
IC:
We will NOT fire first or help in the invasion of FPC, however we will defend attican empire to the death.

Secret IC:
Oh yeah, and Pelican ASW's are being equipped with nuclear depth charges. If we cant find it but know its there, itll die anyway.

IC: We are simply here to defend against an invasion of the FPC by the Atticans. Nothing more, nothing less. We have no intention of invading the Attican Empire. We do not want a permanent presence in the region. The onus, it would appear, is on the Attican government. Perhaps the nation of Dark terror can persuade its allies in the Attican Empire to negotiate a peaceful settlement.

Secret IC:
Oh yeah, and Pelican ASW's are being equipped with nuclear depth charges. If we cant find it but know its there, itll die anyway.

OOC: Just when you think it couldn't get more ridiculous...

[THis is probably my 1st attempt at diplomacy, lol].
In exchange for FPC agreeing not to allow it to be used as a springboard for an invasion of Attican Empire, it is possible they will agree to back down.

We will defend Attican Empire from blockades and invasions, nothing else.

Secret IC:
Oh yeah, and Pelican ASW's are being equipped with nuclear depth charges. If we cant find it but know its there, itll die anyway.

OOC: Just when you think it couldn't get more ridiculous...
OOC:
Ever since the Bisonic-Belemien-Acrenan-Waltenien SDI system was put into use, we no longer have a concept of MAD.

[THis is probably my 1st attempt at diplomacy, lol].
In exchange for FPC agreeing not to allow it to be used as a springboard for an invasion of Attican Empire, it is possible they will agree to back down.

We will defend Attican Empire from blockades and invasions, nothing else.

OOC: *facepalm* That explains so much...

IC: There never was an intention to invade the Attican Empire. On the contrary, it is the Atticans that are preparing to invade the FPC to impose a government of their choosing... not the citizens of the FPC. Perhaps the nation of the Dark Terror and the allies of the Federation can work togeether to jointly oversee a demilitarization of the FPC-Attican border? If you are willing to do that, we will lift our blockade.

IC: The Federation immediately proposes a demilitarization of the FPC-Attican border. In return for a nonaggression pledge by both sides, the nations of the FACS, McLeod, Dark terror, and other allies will oversee the peaceful removal of combatants from the conflict zone and lift the present military blockade.

That sounds reasonable to us...

We will however continue trading with him as we please for the time being.

That sounds reasonable to us...

We will however continue trading with him as we please for the time being.

OOC: The blockade is only on the movement of military ships... commerical trade has been moving unhindered.

OOC:
Oh. Then never mind that last statement, since were not sending troops there yet and probably wont.

Two Talaaxian merchant marine ships set sail from Talaaxian ports. The freighters are fully laden with cargo, but in sticking with previous Talaaxian actions in the region are unescorted.
The official cargo manifest released upon the sailing states the ships are carrying various foodstuffs, medical supplies, computer and information technology equipment, communications equipment. The names of the two ships are TSS Julius Fucik ( known for it's past involvement in covert operations [ see thread "Guerrlla War" ] ) and TSS Viking. Although the men are told they are carrying routine cargo they are told to forgo inspections of the cargo unless directly ordered to by the bridge staff. The ships are due to arrive in Attican waters in three days (NS time).

OOC: The ships are part of the civilian merchant marine and are not military ships.

OOC: Per the activity in the other thread, the blockade has been disbanded because the nations have all stood down from a war footing. An international peacekeeping force is being established to maintain order and the demilitarization. So, your ships would go through unimpeded.

OOC: Demilitarization? Do you mean demobilization?

OOC: Demilitarization? Do you mean demobilization?

OOC: Eh, in this case... it means about the same thing.

Demobilization means active units that are prepared for combat are put back into semi-active status, awaiting combat.

Demilitarization means you are removing parts of the military itself.

Demobilization - military stays same size, reduce readyness and cost

Demilitarization - military shrinks

Demobilization means active units that are prepared for combat are put back into semi-active status, awaiting combat.

Demilitarization means you are removing parts of the military itself.

Demobilization - military stays same size, reduce readyness and cost

Demilitarization - military shrinks

Not necessarily... the Demilitarized Zone between North Korea and South Korea just means that military units aren't supposed to cross in there, not that either side has reduced their forces. I was using the term colloquially, anyways... I wasn't expecting a semantics debate at midnight. ;P

OOC: Then you should have said "Demilitarization of the Neutral Zone". :) Anyways, I will have a prototype of the Sturmpanzer rolling tomorrow. Your military advisors are welcome to come (no cameras.)