NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, so this is from Fox news, and I know how much some of you hate that as a source.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522637,00.html

Couple Ordered to Stop Holding Bible Study at Home Without Permit
Thursday, May 28, 2009



Pastor David Jones and his wife Mary have been told that they cannot invite friends to their San Diego, Calif. home for a Bible study — unless they are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to San Diego County.

"On Good Friday we had an employee from San Diego County come to our house, and inform us that the Bible study that we were having was a religious assembly, and in violation of the code in the county." David Jones told FOX News.

"We told them this is not really a religious assembly — this is just a Bible study with friends. We have a meal, we pray, that was all," Jones said.

A few days later, the couple received a written warning that cited "unlawful use of land," ordering them to either "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit," the couple's attorney Dean Broyles told San Diego news station 10News.

But the major use permit could cost the Jones' thousands of dollars just to have a few friends over.

For David and Mary Jones, it's about more than a question of money.

"The government may not prohibit the free exercise of religion," Broyles told FOX News. "I believe that our Founding Fathers would roll over in their grave if they saw that here in the year 2009, a pastor and his wife are being told that they cannot hold a simple Bible study in their own home."

"The implications are great because it’s not only us that’s involved," Mary Jones said. "There are thousands and thousands of Bible studies that are held all across the country. What we’re interested in is setting a precedent here — before it goes any further — and that we have it settled for the future."

The couple is planning to dispute the county's order this week.

If San Diego County refuses to allow the pastor and his wife to continue gathering without acquiring a permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.

I bolded a certain part, because I am really wondering about how this works. IF the story is correct, how can a governmental body, whether its federal, state or local, charge for religious expression? I thought religious buildings were tax exempt the separation clause, so how could permits pass if taxation can't? Does that seem fishy? Anyways, what do you think, should people be able to hold religious gatherings, small or big, at their private properties?

If true just sounds like a government has found another way to raise revenue.

I'm not one for religion at all, but this is just ridiculous. There's no way that these people having a bible study in the privacy of their own home requires a permit. Does this mean that anyone who has more than 5 people who don't live in the house, inside the house, need a permit?

This isn't even a question of separation of church and state.

I have no idea where the government is coming from on this one.

I'm interested in seeing the justification for requiring a permit though. Next thing you know they'll want permits for house parties:rolleyes:.

I would investigate it by going to the County offices.

I wonder if the ACLU will get behind this...

Retarded beyond words. Of course, Conservatives will doubtless try to use this as proof that the evil liberals are trying to destroy Good Christian Values, and somehow Obama's name will be linked to it, but at the end of the day its a much broader issue. Why should anyone, ever, have to pay anyone anything to hold a private not-for-profit gathering on their own property? Religious or otherwise. What the fuck happened to freedom of assembly, freedom of expression, and private property?

Now, I'll grant that this is from Fox, so we may be getting one side of the story or even an outright fabricated account, but if this is even remotely what it sounds like, then fuck whoever passed or enforced this law.

Maybe they can get god to smite San Diego for them.

Here's an article not from Fox News, with a slightly different story:

BONITA, Calif. -- A local pastor said the County has cited him for hosting a weekly Bible study in his home. The County said visitors who drive to those meetings are affecting traffic in the neighborhood.

Pastor David Jones has been hosting weekly Bible studies at his Bonita home during the past five years. About 15 people attend the meetings, he told 10News.

Jones said a visitor to a neighbor's house called the County after a Bible study member hit the visitor’s car while leaving. Shortly after, a county code enforcement officer gave him a citation that said he needed a permit to host the weekly Bible study meetings, he said.

http://www.10news.com/news/19585458/detail.html

Woah shit, 15 people...why not just have everybody carpool there? I bet you could fit all the cars in the driveway then.

They need to get a teamspeak server, that way they don't need to waste the gas to travel there, but can still hold their Bible study. Another bonus is, if they're also gamers, they can use it when they're fragging n00bs. :D

hmmm would i have to get some kind of permit if i had a weekly poker night that 15 friends came to?

15 people seems a very reasonable amount to allow without requiring a permit. i expected to find out that he was having 150 people.

hmmm would i have to get some kind of permit if i had a weekly poker night that 15 friends came to?

15 people seems a very reasonable amount to allow without requiring a permit. i expected to find out that he was having 150 people.

Maybe it's the fact that it's a weekly thing. It could get pretty annoying if your neighbors had a get together on a weekly basis, especially if the 15 or so people came in 10-15 different cars and parking in the neighborhood is an issue - and some neighborhoods in San Diego are pretty limited when it comes to parking.

You know, they might try a rotation system and meet each week in a different home.

At least this a fairly civilized attempt to curtail their meetings. When my Wiccan group was meeting weekly, the neighbors got pretty nasty - to the extent of slashing tires and egging cars.

Jones said a visitor to a neighbor's house called the County after a Bible study member hit the visitor’s car while leaving. Shortly after, a county code enforcement officer gave him a citation that said he needed a permit to host the weekly Bible study meetings, he said.

so... you car gets hit and you call the COUNTY?

why not the cops and file an accident report?!?

again tho. we've had meetings, weekly, where there were more than 15 people and we didn't need a permit.

and we held this for years!

They need to get a teamspeak server, that way they don't need to waste the gas to travel there, but can still hold their Bible study. Another bonus is, if they're also gamers, they can use it when they're fragging n00bs. :D

"Praise god Hallelujah!" *blam* *blam*

They need to get a teamspeak server, that way they don't need to waste the gas to travel there, but can still hold their Bible study. Another bonus is, if they're also gamers, they can use it when they're fragging n00bs. :D

Fantasy games would fit better.
"By the grace of GOD, you are HEALED!"
*cast heal*

"In the name of the LORD, you shall be Raised!"
*Cast Rez*

:D

California is really short of money though, doubly so places like San Diego, so they probably are just fishing for anything they can get.

"Praise god Hallelujah!" *blam* *blam*

"Praise The Lord and pass the Ammunition!"

California is really short of money though, doubly so places like San Diego, so they probably are just fishing for anything they can get.

Colorado Springs (being the lost buckle of the Bible Belt) would never do that. Instead, they've decided to require that cats be licensed (at $12/cat/annum figuring you have in excess of 150,000 cats in the Springs). Really, San Diego should try it, it's a less problematic and far more lucrative move.

It's easy to get around the whole business of licensing these meetings, just make them movable. Besides, I suspect that if it went to court, it wouldn't stand.

Colorado Springs (being the lost buckle of the Bible Belt) would never do that. Instead, they've decided to require that cats be licensed (at $12/cat/annum figuring you have in excess of 150,000 cats in the Springs). Really, San Diego should try it, it's a less problematic and far more lucrative move.

It's easy to get around the whole business of licensing these meetings, just make them movable. Besides, I suspect that if it went to court, it wouldn't stand.

Wait, there are places where you DON'T have to license cats? Jeez. It's like $25 here.

You have to license cats?

Wait, there are places where you DON'T have to license cats? Jeez. It's like $25 here.

Last I heard, you didn't have to license cats in Riverside, San Bernardino, Moreno Valley. This move in the Springs is just recent - and it's a pretty big bite given that I have three of them.

In any case, I figure it's a lot more acceptable money raising device than hitting home religious meetings - given how touchy the religious types are about religious freedom (for their own religion, not someone else's) and how apt they are to hit you with the Constitution (which they misinterpret as freely and frequently as they misinterpret the Bible). And, as irreligious as I am, I tend to support them in this - what people do in their own homes (as long as they aren't interfering with anyone else) is their own business.

Wait, there are places where you DON'T have to license cats? Jeez. It's like $25 here.

Seriously? No cat licensing here, thankfully.

You have to license cats?

You have to license cats?

You have to license cats?

Do you?

There are zoning issues related to fire safety that may also be in play. Churches, which are designed to hold assemblies on a weekly basis, are designed so that the gathered congregation, no pun intended, can escape the building safely in case of fire. They are also situated so that fire trucks can reach them easily.

Houses, of course, are not designed with the same level of fire safety in mind.

Is the neighbourhood one of those that is habitually at higher risk during the California wildfire season?

this is not really a religious assembly — this is just a Bible study with friends

How is 'a bible study groep with friends' not a religious assembly?

Assembly: 1. an assembling or coming together of a number of persons, usually for a particular purpose: The principal will speak to all the students at Friday's assembly.
2. a group of persons gathered together, usually for a particular purpose, whether religious, political, educational, or social.

Seems to me it is a religous assembly.

They need to get a teamspeak server, that way they don't need to waste the gas to travel there, but can still hold their Bible study. Another bonus is, if they're also gamers, they can use it when they're fragging n00bs. :D

Bible teamspeak. I like. :)

Here's an article not from Fox News, with a slightly different story:



http://www.10news.com/news/19585458/detail.html
About 15 people, he says. Want to bet on it being 15 people who come in individual giant cars in a denser more urban environment? Or 15 regularly attending people plus more occasionally?

It's probably a parking and traffic thing, and the claims of the fellow running it may be understated a bit. Still perhaps not terribly well-advised.

Seems like a local government trying to scrap money out of anyone they can.

hmmm would i have to get some kind of permit if i had a weekly poker night that 15 friends came to?

15 people seems a very reasonable amount to allow without requiring a permit. i expected to find out that he was having 150 people.

I suspect part of the problem is that the host is the Pastor.

Especially since (it appears that) the venue is the same every time, I imagine it is being looked at as the church operating from a second (non-officially-designated) venue.

If you were the dealer at a casino, and you were housing a game for 15 every week at your house, I imagine it'd be more of a consideration than if you and your buddies were purely casual.

There are zoning issues related to fire safety that may also be in play. Churches, which are designed to hold assemblies on a weekly basis, are designed so that the gathered congregation, no pun intended, can escape the building safely in case of fire. They are also situated so that fire trucks can reach them easily.

Houses, of course, are not designed with the same level of fire safety in mind.


This is true, also.

Zoning and design issues certainly could be the underlying problem(s)... and it's not unlike Fox to present only the 'scary' parts of the story.

I'm not one for religion at all, but this is just ridiculous. There's no way that these people having a bible study in the privacy of their own home requires a permit. Does this mean that anyone who has more than 5 people who don't live in the house, inside the house, need a permit?

This isn't even a question of separation of church and state.

I have no idea where the government is coming from on this one.

I'm interested in seeing the justification for requiring a permit though. Next thing you know they'll want permits for house parties:rolleyes:.

The only sources I've found for this story are the Pastor himself and Fox News. I detect a strong whiff of bullshit. There's no way a city could charge taxes for having friends over to read the Bible. There's no way they could even monitor whether or not it's happening.

The story just makes no sense. The guy is probably running a business out of his house and telling this story to get out of the taxes.

I'm not one for religion at all, but this is just ridiculous. There's no way that these people having a bible study in the privacy of their own home requires a permit. Does this mean that anyone who has more than 5 people who don't live in the house, inside the house, need a permit?

This isn't even a question of separation of church and state.


Yeah, totally. This is one of the most stupid things I've ever heard of. How can a county regulation forbid anyone (or require anyone to get a permit, or require to pay a tax) to use his own home to meet people for an activity which isn't for profit?

(Apart from safety concerns, of course - you can't cram 200 people in a 100-m^2 flat)

If that's true, I think that the county is trespassing the limits of its powers, and is conflicting with fundamental criteria of personal freedom (both on constitutional level and on human rights level).


(then again: it's Faux News, so we'd have to find some more reliable sources)

Clear violation of freedom of travel, assembly and religion. I hope the Pastor sues the pants off this council.

Clear violation of freedom of travel, assembly and religion. I hope the Pastor sues the pants off this council.

1. Travel - how is freedom to travel being violated? They are allowed to travel. If I drive up to The City and can't find a parking space, has my freedom to travel been restricted? If I go to the park for the day and decide to sleep on a bench there, are my travel rights being violated if a cop tells me I can't sleep on public property?

2. Assembly - also not being violated. The pastor has chosen a venue for these large gatherings which impacts his neighbors negatively. Once the group grew to the point where cars were filling the street, the pastor could have chosen another place to hold the meetings. He could have even arranged car-pooling, or had people drop their cars off at a local parking lot and walk to his house. There is not an absolute right to assemble anywhere at any time. If he wanted to have 60 people for bible study at his house, for instance, it would probably violate fire codes and not be allowed.

3. Religion - again, it is not his free practice of religion that is being curtailed, but his choice of location and group size. Unless he follows a very particular religion which demands that large groups of people congregate at his house at a particular time on a particular day each week... but I don't think that's the case.

And California wonders why they rank so bad in freedom.

Heh...

Actually looking into it instead of taking the OP at face value seems to have turned up what I expected - the story's not quite as presented.

She said the county was not targeting the Joneses because they were exercising their religion, but rather it was trying to address parking and traffic issues.

“We've advised the pastor he has the authority to continue to hold his meetings just as he's held them,” Wallar said. “My hope is we will be able to resolve the traffic concerns.”

Wallar said the person who filed the complaint alleged that Bible study was drawing 30 to 40 cars.
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/

The family was given a warning to "cease and desist" their "religious gathering" until they are granted a "major use permit".

"The county is not saying don't pray at home, what the county is saying is be a good neighbor" said Chandra L. Wallar, who serves as general manager of San Diego County's Land Use and Environment Group.

Wallar said the county received a complaint regarding parking, and they were obligated to investigate.

The complaint alleged that "cars were blocking access for themselves and for public safety" said Wallar. "The staff believed there were traffic issues...There were violations, principally due to the parking, and it appeared the use of the property was a religious assembly."

Wallar believes there is a "miscommunication" here; often, she said, people who are cited for the first time take it "personally". "They focused on the 'use' because they really didn't understand our process."

She wants to work with the Jones family on solutions to the parking problems including carpooling, parking down the street, or having bible study members rotate their homes.

"I want to say in the most direct terms: the County has never tried to stifle religious expression and never will," said County CAO Ekard.

Major use permits are often given to churches, synagogues and other places of gathering. They take into account traffic concerns, engineering issues, architecture considerations and more. The main purpose is to assess the feasibility of large gatherings occurring at a particular location.
http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local/story/Bible-Group-Says-the-County-is-Illegally/Roa_8GXqOkiC53jjjYhhWA.cspx

Wallar said it's the officer’s job to determine what kind of event is hosted at Jones’ house to decide what part of county code the event falls under.

"The Bible studies are one that's probably in a very gray area," Waller said.

That gray area may be causing the problem. Wallar said the county only cares about how any event impacts the surrounding neighborhood.

"We want to make sure -- whether they're on a public road or a private road -- that they're parking safely; that we can get fire trucks in; that we can get police vehicles in," Waller said.

Jones' attorneys told 10News it sounds like the county is backing away from their original warning.

In April, Jones received a written warning for "unlawful use of land" and was ordered to stop hosting his "religious assemblies."
http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html

Looks to me to be a case of a legit complaint. If my neigbor has a book club meeting and 30-40 cars rock up, blocking access, causing safety hazards and dinging my car, I don't particularly acre what book they're studying...

(Apart from safety concerns, of course - you can't cram 200 people in a 100-m^2 flat)
How about cramming 30 cars into a little cul-de-sac? The neighbor whose car was hit was pissed, and quite rightfully so, and the situation has been out of hand for years.

How about cramming 30 cars into a little cul-de-sac? The neighbor whose car was hit was pissed, and quite rightfully so, and the situation has been out of hand for years.


Every Tuesday night about 15 people drive to Jones’ Bonita home to eat dinner and discuss the Bible. They usually park on Jones' property, he said, but sometimes that parking spills out into the cul-de-sac.

So how do 15 people drive 30 cars ?
And most of them were parked on his property.

So how do 15 people drive 30 cars ?
And most of them were parked on his property.You are believing his side exclusively. 15 might be the number of regular attendees, but 30 apparently was common, and was approximately the number the week the accident handled and the police were called.

So how do 15 people drive 30 cars ?
And most of them were parked on his property.

Where do you get '15' from?

Where do you get '15' from?

page one of this http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html

You have to license cats?
http://www.wildspirit.org/license.htm

About 15 people, he says. Want to bet on it being 15 people who come in individual giant cars in a denser more urban environment? Or 15 regularly attending people plus more occasionally?

It's probably a parking and traffic thing, and the claims of the fellow running it may be understated a bit. Still perhaps not terribly well-advised.
http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html

Average of 15. So possibly more on occasion (and possibly less).

He's a Pastor, isn't he? That might give his neighbors more ammo on the "it's a religious assembly!" front. I doubt it would be a problem if it was Mary Jones' friends over -- but when you're the officiant of a regular religious assembly there could be the argument it is a regular religious assembly.

If he's NOT a pastor in a church and there are these weekly meetings going on in his house, well, they may well be running foul of zoning laws and the "religious assembly" rules.

Is there not a church meeting hall in which he can then hold his assembly/dinner?

The only sources I've found for this story are the Pastor himself and Fox News. I detect a strong whiff of bullshit. There's no way a city could charge taxes for having friends over to read the Bible. There's no way they could even monitor whether or not it's happening.

The story just makes no sense. The guy is probably running a business out of his house and telling this story to get out of the taxes.
Hm. Where I live, if part of your home is designated for regular religious assembly, you get out of some taxes and pay a different rate on the utilities, I believe.

You are believing his side exclusively. 15 might be the number of regular attendees, but 30 apparently was common, and was approximately the number the week the accident handled and the police were called.

Indeed.

According to the pastor 20 people showed up in "at most 6 cars". According bto the neighbor it was 30-40 cars.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/

I'd say both are likely wrong and it's somewhere in the middle.

I'd say both are likely wrong and it's somewhere in the middle.
I'd say the pastor is probably lying and the neighbor has it about right. It is the pastor who has the motive to lie here: what motive did the neighbors to make trouble, unless it actually was causing trouble for them?

I'd say the pastor is probably lying and the neighbor has it about right. It is the pastor who has the motive to lie here: what motive did the neighbors to make trouble, unless it actually was causing trouble for them?

You haven't lived in a neighborhood with up tight assholes before have you ?
We used to have a code inspector make weekly visits for things like measuring the length of the grass.
Any tiny altercation and a few neighbors may well have decided to exaggerate.
After all if you want code enforcement to bitch smack someone around the first thing you do is exaggerate. This is often the case when the neighbors don't talk to the person directly and instead try to use the City's code enforcement.

Even if they didn't lie they could simply be mistaken, and label any car they didn't know on one prayer nights as prayer people when it might have been a different neighbor entirely.

Either way I don't think the city has made their case enough to issues tickets or insist on a permit. They have been told only a few cars are coming. If the city thinks more people and cars are coming perhaps the city or the neighbors need to start taking pictures and videos of how many people are coming and going.

Ad ---------->

A shame that the story loses its point entirely when other sources but Fucks News are considered.

For a moment there, I thought some enlightened council might actually be charging higher rates for the use of land as a church than they charge for use of land as a house. That would rock.

What a shame. No religious persecution here, just a silly old traffic complaint that the neighbours should have settled like grown-ups.

Just claim it is a party, play some loud music and serve drinks. No religious assembly here. Nothing to see just move along.

Traffic. Coming from New York I can understand the neighbor frustration it doesn't take too many cars to make a big mess in some places. Start car pooling I would say.

I'd say the pastor is probably lying and the neighbor has it about right. It is the pastor who has the motive to lie here: what motive did the neighbors to make trouble, unless it actually was causing trouble for them?

what motive?

maybe they were offended by the fact that next door was a bible study group happening and it seems more popular than their parties.

motive really isn't that big of a deal when dealing with neighborhood politics.

does this mean the pastor is right and the neighbor lying?

no. i'm more inclined to lean towards Sapient Cephalopods post and say the truth is closer to the middle.

now if the Neighbor's car was damaged, I'm sure there would be a police report filed and such.

now if the Neighbor's car was damaged, I'm sure there would be a police report filed and such.
Uhhhh... yeah. Are you missing something here? The neighbor called in the cops, and that's why there's a story here.

Uhhhh... yeah. Are you missing something here? The neighbor called in the cops, and that's why there's a story here.

really? all I keep seeing in those articles posted is that the Neighbors called the COUNTY.

I might have missed it when it mentioned they called the police, which article states that they called the police?

Actually, the points kinda moot now... maybe.
Jones' attorneys told 10News it sounds like the county is backing away from their original warning.

page one of this http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html

Right. So you take the word of the person in the article, over the word of the people who made the original complaint?

I don't accept either version as gospel, but the fact that Code Enforcement were called out and that the '30' number WASN'T contested, suggests that the '15' is someone picking a number they might be able to defend.

You haven't lived in a neighborhood with up tight assholes before have you ?
We used to have a code inspector make weekly visits for things like measuring the length of the grass.
Any tiny altercation and a few neighbors may well have decided to exaggerate.
After all if you want code enforcement to bitch smack someone around the first thing you do is exaggerate.

The problem with your 'uptight asshole' theory, is that this was the first time the Code Enforcement department was involved in 5 years, according to the site you cited.

Doesn't sound like someone being an asshiole, or an over-eager Code Department, does it?

Right. So you take the word of the person in the article, over the word of the people who made the original complaint?

I don't accept either version as gospel, but the fact that Code Enforcement were called out and that the '30' number WASN'T contested, suggests that the '15' is someone picking a number they might be able to defend.

Well considering the person in the article has given his name, and the person filing the complaint is anonymous... yes.

Unless this complainer comes out to testify there is no evidence the pastor had any more people then he said.

Well considering the person in the article has given his name, and the person filing the complaint is anonymous... yes.

Unless this complainer comes out to testify there is no evidence the pastor had any more people then he said.

TBH, usualy LEO's and Gov officials TEND to not give personal info of citizens who file complaints.

again tho. that doesn't mean either side is lying nor telling the truth.

TBH, usualy LEO's and Gov officials TEND to not give personal info of citizens who file complaints.

again tho. that doesn't mean either side is lying nor telling the truth.

I am not saying the government giving the info. It would seem likely the news would have called his neighbors, nothing says ratings like having the neighbors on Tv. In court for this man to be found guilty he needs the right to face his accuser. In the long run the complainant(s) needs to step forward or the City needs to actually investigate this, have someone take pictures or what not.

If I know your address I could file an Anonymous complaint with your city about your property use.

I am not saying the government giving the info. It would seem likely the news would have called his neighbors, nothing says ratings like having the neighbors on Tv. In court for this man to be found guilty he needs the right to face his accuser. In the long run the complainant(s) needs to step forward or the City needs to actually investigate this, have someone take pictures or what not.

If I know your address I could file an Anonymous complaint with your city about your property use.

err... such random and unsolicited calling can be considered Harassment. especially if they are "fishing" for the complainer.

and as far as all articles are concerned, the County did investigate it, and it did lead up to the permit requirement.

as for reporting me?

My life is soooo boring... Good luck. ;)

err... such random and unsolicited calling can be considered Harassment. especially if they are "fishing" for the complainer.

and as far as all articles are concerned, the County did investigate it, and it did lead up to the permit requirement.

as for reporting me?

My life is soooo boring... Good luck. ;)
It is just the evidence I am going off of an Anonymous complaint Vs a pastor's word.

As I read the article their idea of an investigation was sending someone to get the pastor's side of the story then disregarding it.

At the bare minimum they will come bother you, or kick in your door. Depends on what codes I look up where you live.

really? all I keep seeing in those articles posted is that the Neighbors called the COUNTY.

I might have missed it when it mentioned they called the police, which article states that they called the police?

San Diego County is quite large, with many unincorporated areas. The County provides essential services such as Law Enforcement, Fire, Paramedic etc. in said unincorporated areas.

Well considering the person in the article has given his name, and the person filing the complaint is anonymous... yes.

Unless this complainer comes out to testify there is no evidence the pastor had any more people then he said.

The person in the article has taken his story to the media, the person filing the complain communicated with the County.

Your claim that they are anonymous is not logical - where does it say that name was withheld? Do you simply mean that that person hasn't gone whining to the newspaper?

Code Enforcement have not contested the 30 number, have they?

I am not saying the government giving the info. It would seem likely the news would have called his neighbors, nothing says ratings like having the neighbors on Tv. In court for this man to be found guilty he needs the right to face his accuser.

You do talk crap... if this guy DID end up in court, it would be with Code Enforcement, not the person who made the first call.

You do talk crap... if this guy DID end up in court, it would be with Code Enforcement, not the person who made the first call.

If the evidence presented in this paper is all they had, then the verdict would be not guilty.

If the evidence presented in this paper is all they had, then the verdict would be not guilty.It is only the pastor who wants to try the case in the news media. The neighbors were under no obligation to talk to Faux News.

It is only the pastor who wants to try the case in the news media. The neighbors were under no obligation to talk to Faux News.

Fox didn't interview anyone they were repeating a 10News story.
But the results are the same, as far as the NSG trial goes we can not use the testimony of the alleged neighbors.

He's a Pastor, isn't he? That might give his neighbors more ammo on the "it's a religious assembly!" front. I doubt it would be a problem if it was Mary Jones' friends over -- but when you're the officiant of a regular religious assembly there could be the argument it is a regular religious assembly.

If he's NOT a pastor in a church and there are these weekly meetings going on in his house, well, they may well be running foul of zoning laws and the "religious assembly" rules.


No wait. In the US, there are regulations for "religious assemblies" specifying what and where can be done - and these are DIFFERENT from other kind of assemblies?

I'd say : why do the US hate freedom?

At the bare minimum they will come bother you, or kick in your door. Depends on what codes I look up where you live.... wow... so I'd get visitors! Kewl! :tongue:

San Diego County is quite large, with many unincorporated areas. The County provides essential services such as Law Enforcement, Fire, Paramedic etc. in said unincorporated areas.

County investigators are sent out to perform First Aid and fight Fires as well as writing tickets and arresting people?

wow. San Diego Emergeny Services must be pretty piss poor to send county officials out to fight fires, perform EMS duties, as well as handle Domestic disturbances and Property damages. :p