NationStates Jolt Archive

CNN Article (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/27/nkorea.nuclear/index.html)

It seems to me they're trying to leverage something.

I can't imagine North Korea seriously expecting to win another war, and I doubt China is interested in backing them on this. What do they have to gain?

Admittedly, if they did want a war now is probably a good time with the global economy in trouble and American forces spread thin, but what do they gain? In a new confrontation with North Korea it's not like the U.S. would be the only country involved, and other nations are not spread as thin.

Edit: I see someone else just created a thread shortly before mine. Bah. This is what I get for leaving the window open too long while I try and do 3 things at once...

This suggests (to me, anyway) that North Korea is closer to collapse than most people think.

Here's hoping there's less tension once South Korea and Communist China share a border.

Better: when China and Korea share a border.

I had hear someone commenting on the news that the implosion of N Korea has always been a when not if scenario and that everyone in the region is basically trying to manoeuvre for a soft landing to avoid having to deal with millions of refugees running over their border or related fall-out from any war attempt NK tries.

I can't imagine North Korea seriously expecting to win another war, and I doubt China is interested in backing them on this.
Somtimes, in military dicatorships, the government is a bit delusional in how it percieves its own greatness, and how it views the outside world. Sometimes said dictatorship overestimate themselves, or underestimate the outside world. Perhaps NK overestimes itself and/or doesn't think the world (with all its other problems) would seriously actually intervene in the Korean Peninsula, again.

A good example of this is the military dicatorship in Argentina. This military government convinced itself that it could beat mighty Britain in taking The Falkan Islands because, it thought, Britain wouldn't actually care enough to respond, and should Britain respond, the military dicatorship was strong (or so it percieved itself) and had the upper hand in this conflcit of being there.

Military dicatorships, undemocratic as they are, tend not to allow opposition views to what government policy is, so they either really don't know what the other side of the situation is, the reality of it, or choose not to care by lying to themselves about their own power.

sucks to be in Seoul right now with all those artillery pieces pointing their way :p

still I doubt North Korea has the balls to do it!

A good example of this is the military dicatorship in Argentina. This military government convinced itself that it could beat mighty Britain in taking The Falkan Islands because, it thought, Britain wouldn't actually care enough to respond, and should Britain respond, the military dicatorship was strong (or so it percieved itself) and had the upper hand in this conflcit of being there.

I don't beleive you actually understand just how close Britain came to losing that war by all means we shouldn't of been able to send troops across the islands and subsequently the cold casualties from the operations where enormous despite the troops being trained in the snow of Norway

A good example of this is the military dicatorship in Argentina. This military government convinced itself that it could beat mighty Britain in taking The Falkan Islands because, it thought, Britain wouldn't actually care enough to respond, and should Britain respond, the military dicatorship was strong (or so it percieved itself) and had the upper hand in this conflcit of being there.


And in the Argentina case, the resultant defeat undermined the military juntas power - after all when your people see you getting your arse kicked by a foreign power they start questioning your ability to maintain control in your own country.

Better: when China and Korea share a border.

I understand that you're trying to be optimistic (which is good!), but keep in mid that that would also apply if north korea conquered south korea....

And in the Argentina case, the resultant defeat undermined the military juntas power - after all when your people see you getting your arse kicked by a foreign power they start questioning your ability to maintain control in your own country.
Exactly. Argentina losing that war against the UK was the beginning of the end of that military government.
I don't beleive you actually understand just how close Britain came to losing that war by all means we shouldn't of been able to send troops across the islands and subsequently the cold casualties from the operations where enormous despite the troops being trained in the snow of Norway
Umm.....Britain was not close to losing that war . . .

I understand that you're trying to be optimistic (which is good!), but keep in mid that that would also apply if north korea conquered south korea....

Yeah, but the difference is that South Korea is wealthy, respected, and a major market for Chinese imports and exports. North Korea is a backward shithole that has so utterly mismanaged every single aspect of the country over the past two decades that it would be nothing more than an atrocious money pit for China that would never, ever provide any meaningful economic benefit. Honestly, I think South Korea alone could defeat the North...they simply don't have any kind of ability to fight a war. Their infrastructure and economy would shatter almost immediately.

That and the fact that NK pissed China off by siding with the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc back in the day. So, I'd say China's not going to care too much if North Korea calls down the thunder upon itself and gets annexed by the South. Truth be told, I bet they'd love to build a nice, big highway and rail network right through the North linking the two countries overland.

North Korea alone will survive about as well as an egg dropped from the top of as skyscraper, but if china supports them it could go the other way, even if the US supports south korea.

Fortunately, it looks like china will NOT support north korea, but...

Umm.....Britain was not close to losing that war . . .

yes its not like our Harriers didn't have supersonic capability and the Argies strategic idiocy let Britain land on the Islands without a shot fired

North Korea alone will survive about as well as an egg dropped from the top of as skyscraper, but if china supports them it could go the other way, even if the US supports south korea.

whats China gonna do pour millions of troops over the border like last time and lose most of them to starvation?

Exactly. Argentina losing that war against the UK was the beginning of the end of that military government.

Umm.....Britain was not close to losing that war . . .

No, we wasn't really, but on paper we should never have won. We sent a smaller force 8000 miles to achieve an impossible task against a numerically superior enemy who had had time to emplace themselves on or territory.

At times the outcome was on a knife edge, when exocets were feared to have hit HMS Invincible or Hermes instead of the Atlantic Conveyor for example. But the carrier's weren't hit. So all was well.

yes its not like our Harriers didn't have supersonic capability and the Argies strategic idiocy let Britain land on the Islands without a shot fired
. . . so Britain was not close to losing that war . . . :p

No, we wasn't really, but on paper we should never have won. We sent a smaller force 8000 miles to achieve an impossible task against a numerically superior enemy who had had time to emplace themselves on or territory.

At times the outcome was on a knife edge, when exocets were feared to have hit HMS Invincible or Hermes instead of the Atlantic Conveyor for example. But the carrier's weren't hit. So all was well.
Yeah, but the British Military (even stretched to that limit) was well equipped, trained and maintained (much more so than the Argentinian Military) . . . and just much more advanced in general.

North Korea alone will survive about as well as an egg dropped from the top of as skyscraper, but if china supports them it could go the other way, even if the US supports south korea.

Fortunately, it looks like china will NOT support north korea, but...

NK does have the 4th largest military in the world correct?

Edit:

I guess Iraq did too in 1990... Ok could go either way.

But the carrier's weren't hit. So all was well.

doubly so as they carried Nuclear weapons :p

Yeah, but the British Military (even stretched to that limit) was well equipped, trained and maintained (much more so than the Argentinian Military) . . . and just much more advanced in general.

lets not be too hasty now

NK does have the 4th largest military in the world correct?

Fifth. China, US, India, Russia, North Korea.

Fifth. China, US, India, Russia, North Korea.

Depends how you measure them. By weight, they're 59th. :p

Depends how you measure them. By weight, they're 59th. :p

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2395997833_3f2ea5349a.jpg?v=0

I seriously doubt China will aid the North if it comes to war. They might remain neutral, but I strongly doubt that.

They will probably follow one of two courses of action:
1. Back a coup by NK military leaders, turn North Korea into a Chinese puppet state. Gets them a nice puppet state.
2. Openly support the US and South Korea, help bring about unification. Puts China in a position to heavily influence the Republic of Korea.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2395997833_3f2ea5349a.jpg?v=0

:fluffle:

North Korea, no longer bound by gravity.

It'd work out about as well.

North Korea, no longer bound by sanity.

It'd work out about as well.

Fixed.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/05/27/world/AP-AS-Koreas-Nuclear.html?_r=2

Filed at 3:56 p.m. ET

SEOUL, South Korea (AP) -- North Korea threatened military action Wednesday against U.S. and South Korean warships plying the waters near the Koreas' disputed maritime border, raising the specter of a naval clash just days after the regime's underground nuclear test.

In Washington, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton warned that Pyongyang faced unspecified consequences because of its ''provocative and belligerent'' acts.

Pyongyang, reacting angrily to Seoul's decision to join an international program to intercept ships suspected of aiding nuclear proliferation, called South Korea's decision tantamount to a declaration of war.

''Now that the South Korean puppets were so ridiculous as to join in the said racket and dare declare a war against compatriots,'' North Korea is ''compelled to take a decisive measure,'' the Committee for the Peaceful Reunification of Korea said in a statement carried by state media.

The North Korean army called it a violation of the armistice the two Koreas signed in 1953 to end their three-year war, and said it would no longer honor the treaty.

South Korea's military said Wednesday it was prepared to ''respond sternly'' to any North Korean provocation.

Clinton said ''there are consequences to such actions,'' referring to discussions in the United Nations meant to punish North Korea for its nuclear and missile tests.

She also underscored the firmness of the U.S. treaty commitment to defend South Korea and Japan, U.S. allies in easy reach of North Korean missiles.

North Korea's latest belligerence comes as the U.N. Security Council debates how to punish the regime for testing a nuclear bomb Monday in what President Barack Obama called a ''blatant violation'' of international law.

Ambassadors from the five permanent veto-wielding council members -- the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France -- as well as Japan and South Korea were working out the details of a new resolution.

The success of any new sanctions would depend on how aggressively China, one of North Korea's only allies, implements them.

''It's not going too far to say that China holds the keys on sanctions,'' said Kim Sung-han, an international relations professor at Seoul's Korea University.

South Korea, divided from the North by a heavily fortified border, had responded to the nuclear test by joining the Proliferation Security Initiative, a U.S.-led network of nations seeking to stop ships from transporting the materials used in nuclear bombs.

Seoul previously resisted joining the PSI in favor of seeking reconciliation with Pyongyang, but pushed those efforts aside Monday after the nuclear test in the northeast.

North Korea warned Wednesday that any attempt to stop, board or inspect its ships would constitute a ''grave violation.''

The regime also said it could no longer promise the safety of U.S. and South Korean warships and civilian vessels in the waters near the Korea's western maritime border.

''They should bear in mind that the (North) has tremendous military muscle and its own method of strike able to conquer any targets in its vicinity at one stroke or hit the U.S. on the raw, if necessary,'' the army said in a statement carried by state media.

The maritime border has long been a flashpoint between the two Koreas. North Korea disputes the line unilaterally drawn by the United Nations at the end of the Koreas' three-year war in 1953, and has demanded it be redrawn further south.

The truce signed in 1953 and subsequent military agreements call for both sides to refrain from warfare, but doesn't cover the waters off the west coast.

North Korea has used the maritime border dispute to provoke two deadly naval skirmishes -- in 1999 and 2002.

On Wednesday, the regime promised ''unimaginable and merciless punishment'' for anyone daring to challenge its ships.

Pyongyang also reportedly restarted its weapons-grade nuclear plant, South Korean media said.

The Chosun Ilbo newspaper said U.S. spy satellites detected signs of steam at the North's Yongbyon nuclear complex, an indication it may have started reprocessing nuclear fuel. The report, which could not be confirmed, quoted an unidentified government official. South Korea's Yonhap news agency also carried a similar report.

The move would be a major setback for efforts aimed at getting North Korea to disarm.

North Korea had stopped reprocessing fuel rods as part of an international deal. In 2007, it agreed to disable the Yongbyon reactor in exchange for aid and demolished a cooling tower at the complex.

The North has about 8,000 spent fuel rods which, if reprocessed, could allow it to harvest 13 to 18 pounds (six to eight kilograms) of plutonium -- enough to make at least one nuclear bomb, experts said. North Korea is believed to have enough plutonium for at least a half dozen atomic bombs.

Further ratcheting up tensions, North Korea test-fired five short-range missiles over the past two days, South Korean officials confirmed.

Russia's foreign minister said world powers must be firm with North Korea but take care to avoid inflaming tensions further.

The world ''must not rush to punish North Korea just for punishment's sake,'' Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said, adding that Russia wants a Security Council resolution that will help restart stalled six-nation talks over North Korea's nuclear programs and will not provoke Pyongyang into even more aggressive activity.

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak urged officials to ''remain calm'' in the face of North Korean threats, said Lee Dong-kwan, his spokesman.

Pyongyang isn't afraid of any repercussions for its actions, a North Korean newspaper, the Minju Joson, said Wednesday.

''It is a laughable delusion for the United States to think that it can get us to kneel with sanctions,'' it said in an editorial. ''We've been living under U.S. sanctions for decades, but have firmly safeguarded our ideology and system while moving our achievements forward. The U.S. sanctions policy toward North Korea is like striking a rock with a rotten egg.''

Well well well. Now we get to see what happens when a newly emerged nuclear power challenges the existing nuclear power. My guess: nuclear weapons development will, contrary to what the US would want everyone to accept, wind up being the only counter to the ultimate threat of US (or any nations) nuclear weapons. We will not attack NK and probably do all we can to avoid a major conflict.

It must be somewhat frightening to be in South Korea or in Japan right now!

It must be somewhat frightening to be in South Korea or in Japan right now!

Their missiles can reach the coasts of USA as well...

Oh? I thought their last test (the satellite thing) fell into the ocean. Are you sure about that?

Their missiles can reach the coasts of USA as well...

Not yet. They're still trying to develop one that has that range (Not tested or in production yet), and the fact that there are ANTI-BALLISTIC MISSILE SYSTEMS owned by the USA.

Not yet. They're still trying to develop one that has that range (Not tested or in production yet), and the fact that there are ANTI-BALLISTIC MISSILE SYSTEMS owned by the USA.

Given that those have never actually been tested against a long range cruise missile, capable of maneuvering, I am skeptical as to their ability to defend against such things.

Not yet. They're still trying to develop one that has that range (Not tested or in production yet), and the fact that there are ANTI-BALLISTIC MISSILE SYSTEMS owned by the USA.

Well Willy Claes, former uberboss of the NATO said something different on TV yesterday. Really. I'll look for a link.

and the fact that there are ANTI-BALLISTIC MISSILE SYSTEMS owned by the USA.don't work, and are impractical, such projects have been cancelled.
Reason? When defense costs almost an order of magnitude more than offense, something's definitely wrong with the idea...

NK does have the 4th largest military in the world correct?
The reason they keep pulling stunts like this is because they need fuel. They get the little oil imports they have from China, which regulates them tightly and doesn't leave them enough to do everything it wants.

You can imagine that for a Soviet-doctrine tank army, not having much fuel is a problem. They have all these power outages and so on because they ration it and keep as much as possible in army fuel depots (which presumably would be prime targets for allied air strikes), and even so large parts of their army is in the form of vehicles that stay in barracks (or even on the side of the road at times) without fuel.

Basically, in case of war they'd fire a lot of artillery and missiles and move their spearhead divisions south as quickly as possible. A week or so in, those divisions lose mobility, but they seem to somehow kid themselves that they can be in a winning position by then. Instead, they'd just get bombed to pieces.

The only problem with all this is the aforementioned barrage, which will be aimed straight at large civilian populations. If that wasn't the case, there'd really be no problem.

Given that those have never actually been tested against a long range cruise missile, capable of maneuvering, I am skeptical as to their ability to defend against such things.
Those North Korean missiles aren't really capable of maneuvering. They are modified Scuds, and the long-range versions are so stretched that they can only carry very light payloads. Something complicated which can take evasive action is probably just not in it.

Given that those have never actually been tested against a long range cruise missile, capable of maneuvering, I am skeptical as to their ability to defend against such things.
I'm skeptical that NK can even get a missile this far, much less it being advanced enough to avoid even 60's ABM technology.:p
Well Willy Claes, former uberboss of the NATO said something different on TV yesterday. Really. I'll look for a link.

I'll be waiting.;)

don't work, and are impractical, such projects have been cancelled.
Reason? When defense costs almost an order of magnitude more than offense, something's definitely wrong with the idea...

Cancelled, you say? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missile#Post_Gulf_War_ABM_developments_in_the_1990s)

Ooh, I was referring to the Boeing Lasers.
Not aware with that missile. And frankly, not convinced it is in progress :p

Ooh, I was referring to the Boeing Lasers.
Not aware with that missile. And frankly, not convinced it is in progress :p

They're already (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_combat_system) in use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIM-104_Patriot) foo'! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-161_Standard_missile_3) :p

Alright, let's assume they're effective against ICBMs (I've seen they are against planes though).

I'm skeptical that NK can even get a missile this far, much less it being advanced enough to avoid even 60's ABM technology.:p


I'll be waiting.;)

Can't find anything about the statement of that Willy Claes.

It was in a political talk show (Phara) on Belgian TV.

The reporter asked: 'How dangerous is the North Korean threat?'
Claes answered: 'We have to take it seriously, their missiles can reach the American west coast'
The reporter: 'How do we know this, by espionage?'
Claes: 'Partly yes'
The reporter: 'But can you be more specific?'
Claes: 'No, I am not allowed, I can't talk a lot about it'
The reporter: 'Ok I understand, it is due your former NATO relationships?'
Claes: *smiles*

Willy Claes is not just another idiot, he's a former Secretaries General of the NATO.

But I did found a BBC link here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2564241.stm

...The Taepodong-2 long-range missile is estimated to have a range of between 4,000km and 10,000km and, like the Taepodong-1, it requires a fixed launch site...

...Defence experts say that the original Taepodong-2 is now being replaced by a newer model, which can have two or three stages giving it an extended range of up to 15,000km...

It's not a smoking gun, but still a gun, isn't? But I'll look a little further.

Alright, let's assume they're effective against ICBMs (I've seen they are against planes though).

Even that so, the risk to South Korean populations is not addressed by them. I'm not worried about North Korea getting ICBMs and attacking the US - not now anyway. That's not the pressing issue at the moment. All they need to do is hit the navy ships they are currently threatening to, and then war breaks out.

And they just tested a nuclear bomb. Maybe. Probably.

don't work, and are impractical, such projects have been cancelled.
Reason? When defense costs almost an order of magnitude more than offense, something's definitely wrong with the idea...

Actually the AEGIS System was tested against a De-Activated ICBM and succesfully intercepted the Missiles, and last i checked we have about 30 or so of those Vessels in the Pacific Fleet, plus to respond to a earlier post no cruise missile yet developed has the range to go from NK to America West Coast, nor does any that the DPRK Has that can reach Alaska as far as i know, SK and Japan yes, but USA, no, and ICBMs cant Manuever and the AEGIS System can intercept given right Situation

Conserative Morality,

Here Claes repeats that their missiles can reach Alaska.

Only if you understand Dutch. Sorry :)

http://www.canvas.be/extra/html/page_view_video.html?f=http://media.vrtnieuws.net/2009/05/113138001PHARA5MIN6342829_urlFLVLong.flv%20&keepThis=true&TB_iframe=true&height=300&width=550

From 00:53

"Als je bovendien weet dat zij een raket technologie ontwikkeld hebben waarbij ze zelfs Alaska kunnen bereiken…."

I’ll translate:

If you also take in mind that they have developed missile technology which can reach even Alaska….

Can't find anything about the statement of that Willy Claes.

It was in a political talk show (Phara) on Belgian TV.

The reporter asked: 'How dangerous is the North Korean threat?'
Claes answered: 'We have to take it seriously, their missiles can reach the American west coast'
The reporter: 'How do we know this, by espionage?'
Claes: 'Partly yes'
The reporter: 'But can you be more specific?'
Claes: 'No, I am not allowed, I can't talk a lot about it'
The reporter: 'Ok I understand, it is due your former NATO relationships?'
Claes: *smiles*

Willy Claes is not just another idiot, he's a former Secretaries General of the NATO.

But I did found a BBC link here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2564241.stm

...The Taepodong-2 long-range missile is estimated to have a range of between 4,000km and 10,000km and, like the Taepodong-1, it requires a fixed launch site...

...Defence experts say that the original Taepodong-2 is now being replaced by a newer model, which can have two or three stages giving it an extended range of up to 15,000km...

It's not a smoking gun, but still a gun, isn't? But I'll look a little further.
The Taepodong-2 missile was unsuccessfully tested on July 4, 2006. U.S. intelligence estimates that the weapon will not be operational for another 11 years. The Taepodong-2 could theoretically hit the western United States and other US interests in the Western hemisphere. The current model of the Taepodong-2 could not carry nuclear warheads to the United States. Former CIA director George Tenet has claimed that, with a light payload, Taepodong-2 could reach western parts of Continental United States, though with low accuracy.
Disagreement, shocker! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction)

Disagreement, shocker! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction)

Who do you trust the most? Wiki or a former NATO hotshot?

Claes said (in the same interview) that the payload could hold a 'little' nuke comparable in damage to the Hiroshima one.

Conserative Morality,

Here Claes repeats that their missiles can reach Alaska.

Only if you understand Dutch. Sorry :)

http://www.canvas.be/extra/html/page_view_video.html?f=http://media.vrtnieuws.net/2009/05/113138001PHARA5MIN6342829_urlFLVLong.flv%20&keepThis=true&TB_iframe=true&height=300&width=550

From 00:53

"Als je bovendien weet dat zij een raket technologie ontwikkeld hebben waarbij ze zelfs Alaska kunnen bereiken…."

I’ll translate:

If you also take in mind that they have developed missile technology which can reach even Alaska….

I think he's talking bullshit, pardon my language. He's being a bit of an alarmist, seeing as North Korea's last few missile tests have failed, as well as many of their missiles having unbelievably low accuracy. Also, their long-range missile program, the one being spoken of, isn't supposed to be operational for another 11 years.

Who do you trust the most? Wiki or a former NATO hotshot?

Actually, if you'd read it, it was a quote from the former director of the CIA. I prefer the former CIA hotshot to the NATO hotshot.

Actually, if you'd read it, it was a quote from the former director of the CIA. I prefer the former CIA hotshot to the NATO hotshot.

My hotshot is better than yours ;)

Is that the same hotshot who said that Iraq was loaded with WMDs?

In that case, I'll support my hotshot. :)

I think he's talking bullshit, pardon my language. He's being a bit of an alarmist, seeing as North Korea's last few missile tests have failed, as well as many of their missiles having unbelievably low accuracy. Also, their long-range missile program, the one being spoken of, isn't supposed to be operational for another 11 years.

Don't shoot the messenger, I only recall what he said. I don't have a clue what or who is right or wrong. I'm not in the position to answer that call.

Don't shoot the messenger, I only recall what he said. I don't have a clue what or who is right or wrong. I'm not in the position to answer that call.
Ah, wasn't planning on it. *Slowly hides Revolver*
My hotshot is better than yours ;)

Is that the same hotshot who said that Iraq was loaded with WMDs?

In that case, I'll support my hotshot. :)
According to a report by veteran investigative journalist Bob Woodward in his book Plan of Attack, Tenet privately lent his personal authority to the intelligence reports about weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) in Iraq.[24] At a meeting on December 12, 2002, he assured Bush that the evidence against Saddam Hussein amounted to a "slam dunk case." After several months of refusing to confirm this statement, Tenet later stated that this remark was taken out of context. (Tenet indicated that the comment was made pursuant to a discussion about how to convince the American people to support invading Iraq, and that, in his opinion, the best way to convince the people would be by explaining the dangers posed by Iraq's WMD i.e., the public relations sale of the war via the WMD, according to Tenet, would be a "slam dunk").[25] The search following the 2003 invasion of Iraq by U.S., British and international forces yielded no stockpiles of WMDs, however.
So, he's a bastard, but he knows his stuff. Whether or not what he said is true about NK's missiles is... Debatable, but the man is no fool. He simply has no morals.;)

Conserative Morality,

I don't like Willy Claes, but it is not his style to create panic.
He's not like Mark Eyskens, another former hotshot of Belgian politics, who said that with the collapse of the twin towers the third world war is started. :)

And while it are elections, he is not out to sell himself. He retired politics. But I assume as a former NATO hotshot he's still rather well informed.

I have only one thing to say to the Koreans: DON'T TAKE CHERRY FILTER FROM ME!!!!

Bomb whatever the heck you want.:tongue:

I have only one thing to say to the Koreans: DON'T TAKE CHERRY FILTER FROM ME!!!!

Bomb whatever the heck you want.:tongue:

Cherry Filter (체리필터) is a Korean rock music group formed in 1997. Their unique sound - consisting of emotional ballads, punk rock, rave and trance - prevalent in their last two albums has given them fame across the nation. The song "낭만 고양이" (Nangman Goyang-i, "Romantic Cat") from the album Made In Korea made Cherry Filter famous.
My respect for you has dropped slightly.:(

My respect for you has dropped slightly.:(

What? We all have our guilty pleasures.:$

What? We all have our guilty pleasures.:$

>.>

<.<

If it helps, I can Dance if I want to. And I can leave my friends behind.:$ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcOZ6xFxJqg)

>.>

<.<

If it helps, I can Dance if I want to. And I can leave my friends behind.:$ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcOZ6xFxJqg)

I know... I know... *hugs*
Britney haunts my dreams!:fluffle:

A few things: NK's long range ICBMs might be able to hit Alaska and possibly the west coast, maybe. So far they haven't had much luck with them, but...

The problem is that NK has a bunch of medium range stuff that CAN hit Japan (Which, yes, this is NOT making people over here happy right now) and a huge amount of short range which is all aimed at Seoul and would flatten the city causing massive ammounts of civilian deaths which is NOT A GOOD THING.

As for their nukes, NK still hasn't been able to get it small enough to fit onto an ICBM. If it wants to deliver one, it's going to have to use a bomber. Japan is probably safe from such an attack because there would be more than enough warning of an approching plane to shoot it down, South Korea however... Again, this would not be a good thing.

As for China, it does not want NK to fail because in doing so, it would have to deal with millions of North Koreans pouring over the border (And such a situation is already giving China a headache) and it REALLY doesn't want to have another major US ally on it's border with a horde of US troops there to contain it. Having the North there means that China only has to worry about Japan, India, and other parts of South East Asia, not a country that would be only a hop, skip, and jump from Bejing.

All that said, a lot of the speculation from Korea and Japan seems to be that Kim is preparing to name his third son as his sucessor and is doing massive saber rattling to make sure the military will fall in line with his wishes and support his choice.

Good points NERVUN but radiation from nuke explosions in the area would be an even bigger headache for China would it not?

Good points NERVUN but radiation from nuke explosions in the area would be an even bigger headache for China would it not?

Depends on the type(ground vs air bursting), yield, wind conditions(if the wind for whatever reason is blowing away..), numbers used, distance, geographical features(such as rivers vs mountains), consecration(several used in one area vs spreading them out). weather/time of year, and a whole lot of other factors(with wind likely having the greatest effect).

Unless a whole mess of bombs went off near the border with China, I would hazard to guess that the Chinese would not see a very large increase in cancer/radiation deaths.(excluding anyone that survives the initial bombing and moves north into China or went south for some reason.)

Depends on the type(ground vs air bursting), yield, wind conditions(if the wind for whatever reason is blowing away..), numbers used, distance, geographical features(such as rivers vs mountains), consecration(several used in one area vs spreading them out). weather/time of year, and a whole lot of other factors(with wind likely having the greatest effect).

I think you meant concentration. Blessed nukes don't have any less radiation that I've ever seen. And it's not even a Holy Hand Grenade. :p

Depends on the type(ground vs air bursting), yield, wind conditions(if the wind for whatever reason is blowing away..), numbers used, distance, geographical features(such as rivers vs mountains), consecration(several used in one area vs spreading them out). weather/time of year, and a whole lot of other factors(with wind likely having the greatest effect).

Unless a whole mess of bombs went off near the border with China, I would hazard to guess that the Chinese would not see a very large increase in cancer/radiation deaths.(excluding anyone that survives the initial bombing and moves north into China or went south for some reason.)

Well a worse case scenero would definatly have China saying "Damm we should have taken out NK" But are there some better case sceneros that are really going to hurt more than expected? (if the radiation blows out to sea will it trash the fishing and shipping industries in the area creating massive starvation?)

My respect for you has dropped slightly.:(

Swim little kitty! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6EcOiKWfZI)

A few things: NK's long range ICBMs might be able to hit Alaska and possibly the west coast, maybe.
They can probably hit Alaska, if they aim for the west coast...

Solution. Put Cheney incharge of the US launch preemptive strike because Bin laden ties.

(if the radiation blows out to sea will it trash the fishing and shipping industries in the area creating massive starvation?)

Since there is already a decent amount of uranium (http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/08/japans-large-scal-uranium-from-seawater.html) and other radioactive material in seawater, that location is likely already overfished and any material will diffuse throughout the oceans through the different currents and what not I think the fish will largely be fine provided a nuke doesn't mistarget and hit the ocean/sea as for humans? IDK it would depend on the previous conditions but provided your not fishing right next to North Korea when the bombing starts you'll likely be fine.I'm no nuclear scientists and this is mostly based off various books I've checked out at my local library so take what you will.
As for shipping I don't really know how much goes near North Korea but I'd guess you would be in and out of the area quick enough to not feel any major ill effects.(any Korean shipping/fishing is likely to suffer because their ports are likely to be bombed to hell and back)

Since there is already a decent amount of uranium (http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/08/japans-large-scal-uranium-from-seawater.html) and other radioactive material in seawater, that location is likely already overfished and any material will diffuse throughout the oceans through the different currents and what not I think the fish will largely be fine provided a nuke doesn't mistarget and hit the ocean/sea as for humans? IDK it would depend on the previous conditions but provided your not fishing right next to North Korea when the bombing starts you'll likely be fine.I'm no nuclear scientists and this is mostly based off various books I've checked out at my local library so take what you will.
As for shipping I don't really know how much goes near North Korea but I'd guess you would be in and out of the area quick enough to not feel any major ill effects.(any Korean shipping/fishing is likely to suffer because their ports are likely to be bombed to hell and back)

What I was refering to was radioactive fallout causing fishing and shipping problems for China. Or fallout landing in mainland China. (depending on the wind)

Swim little kitty! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6EcOiKWfZI)

I will make you pay for that. :mad:

Swim little kitty! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6EcOiKWfZI)

Sweet little kitty, dude, sweet little kitty. If you're to torture CM, do so using the correct words.:D

Sweet little kitty, dude, sweet little kitty. If you're to torture CM, do so using the correct words.:D

:eek2:

Thi-THIS IS AGAINST THE GENEVA CONVENTION! :eek:

:eek2:

Thi-THIS IS AGAINST THE GENEVA CONVENTION! :eek:

SO IT IS! IT'S WAR!!!!:eek2:

What do people think N Korea is going to do? Intentionally hit someone with a rocket or bomb to start a war? I don't understand why it's a problem for them to be building and testing. We'll be the one to start a/the war .. one way or the other. It's in process now.. what do you think all this hooha is for. Let China not take up for or 'take control' of N Korea and watch us swoop in their like a bat out of hell. Then we/someone with us does something to piss off China .. then Russia .. then possibly all hell breaks loose. It's freakin ridiculous to me and entirely unnecessary.


I read a great write up a while back .. and I cannot find it .. (I tried last night/this morning - I should've saved it .. but nooooo, I thought I need to get rid of clutter! I didn't want to end up like I was before with over 2500 bookmarks.. then look what happened .. I wanted ... NO! needed that bookmark *angry*) .. but iirc it was a former cia dude (he was someone who knew his shit if not the cia) talking about all this and basically saying that we are going about this N Korea stuff all wrong.

I seriously want that write up. It is worth a read.

SO IT IS! IT'S WAR!!!!:eek2:

I see. You want to go back to WW1? MEN! STORM THE TRENCHES! LAUNCH THE CHLORINE GAS! LET NO POP MUSIC BAND LIVE!:p

I see. You want to go back to WW1? MEN! STORM THE TRENCHES! LAUNCH THE CHLORINE GAS! LET NO POP MUSIC BAND LIVE!:p

Remember to capture a few for future torture.

Remember to capture a few for future torture.

They had to live with the knowledge that they were POP GROUPS! What further torture do they need? :confused:

They had to live with the knowledge that they were POP GROUPS! What further torture do they need? :confused:

I am sure we could come up with something. Maybe making them listen to their own "music"?

I am sure we could come up with something. Maybe making them listen to their own "music"?

No one with a sense of hearing produces music like that.

No one with a sense of hearing produces music like that.

Good point.

It's not a sense of hearing they lack, but a sense of taste.

NK does have the 4th largest military in the world correct?

Edit:

I guess Iraq did too in 1990... Ok could go either way.

Remember that numbers are only one component of a military.

It must be somewhat frightening to be in South Korea or in Japan right now!

Indeed, it rather is.

I think you meant concentration. Blessed nukes don't have any less radiation that I've ever seen. And it's not even a Holy Hand Grenade. :p

ONE! TWO! FIVE!

I see. You want to go back to WW1? MEN! STORM THE TRENCHES! LAUNCH THE CHLORINE GAS! LET NO POP MUSIC BAND LIVE!:p

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&oi=video_result&ct=res&cd=4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DLlfH_1S05LQ&ei=hBMeSqe6IdOGkQWdoJiKDQ&rct=j&q=%22chemical+warfare%22+dead+kennedys&usg=AFQjCNETJI0gara-tDxKAzwpTLue2n14vg

Remember to capture a few for future torture.

Whole new meaning to Camp Rock there. :p

Swim little kitty! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6EcOiKWfZI)

Thank you! Now I've got that as an earworm!

Swim little kitty! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6EcOiKWfZI)

I love many things about Korea. But I fucking hate Kpop.
One time I realized me and a Gf were incompatible because she kept giving me Kpop CD's. This was back in my wear black boots and leather trench coats phase.
I realized she was either trying to change me, or she was too dumb to figure out wi hated that type of music.

why does this game look like it may happen beside the Mercenaries and Russian Mafia running around

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenaries:_Playground_of_Destruction

I see. You want to go back to WW1? MEN! STORM THE TRENCHES! LAUNCH THE CHLORINE GAS! LET NO POP MUSIC BAND LIVE!:p

LET THIS GLORIOUS BATTLE BEGIN!!!

http://www.imeem.com/nakishito/music/TRe89EDe/witches-there-she-is/

:D

All that said, a lot of the speculation from Korea and Japan seems to be that Kim is preparing to name his third son as his sucessor and is doing massive saber rattling to make sure the military will fall in line with his wishes and support his choice.'Course he's pulling a "Partition of Poland" to do it and it may end him in a position where he can no longer avoid a war.

My personal opinion is that the longer it takes for the bloodshed to start, the more death and destruction there will be. Even more once North Korea has access to a fully functional nuclear weapon. Perhaps they already have what it takes to implement a nuclear strike with the power of what they just tested over a short distance.

Basically, I don't think this situation will be resolved without innocent Koreans and possibly Japanese losing their lives. It's not so much a question of "if" (unlike other Communist regimes that snuffed it, I have my doubts that the paranoid Central Committee in Pyongyang are likely to do it without a bang) but "when" and "how many people die".

The recent move of the ROK's government to join the searching of DPRK ships is calling on Kim to show his hand. Now all we have to see is whether he was bluffing to get more tribute or if he has to pull it through to avoid a coup by his underlings/allies.

LET THIS GLORIOUS BATTLE BEGIN!!!

http://www.imeem.com/nakishito/music/TRe89EDe/witches-there-she-is/

:D

INTO THE VALLEY OF DEATH! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTaD9cd8hvw)

Alright, I've fulfilled my threadjack quota. Any more and the MOD SQUAD will be at my door. And I'm on probation, you know?:p

'Course he's pulling a "Partition of Poland" to do it and it may end him in a position where he can no longer avoid a war.

My personal opinion is that the longer it takes for the bloodshed to start, the more death and destruction there will be. Even more once North Korea has access to a fully functional nuclear weapon. Perhaps they already have what it takes to implement a nuclear strike with the power of what they just tested over a short distance.

Basically, I don't think this situation will be resolved without innocent Koreans and possibly Japanese losing their lives. It's not so much a question of "if" (unlike other Communist regimes that snuffed it, I have my doubts that the paranoid Central Committee in Pyongyang are likely to do it without a bang) but "when" and "how many people die".

The recent move of the ROK's government to join the searching of DPRK ships is calling on Kim to show his hand. Now all we have to see is whether he was bluffing to get more tribute or if he has to pull it through to avoid a coup by his underlings/allies.

That's why I hope China decides to side with us openly. If that makes Kim back down, then he backs down. If it doesn't, then there was never any hope, and we'll have to dismantle this theocracy by force.

Also, regarding the music war, allow me to unleash the full power of the BLACK SYMPHONY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCxb8FwhzK8&feature=related)!

'Course he's pulling a "Partition of Poland" to do it and it may end him in a position where he can no longer avoid a war.

My personal opinion is that the longer it takes for the bloodshed to start, the more death and destruction there will be. Even more once North Korea has access to a fully functional nuclear weapon. Perhaps they already have what it takes to implement a nuclear strike with the power of what they just tested over a short distance.

Basically, I don't think this situation will be resolved without innocent Koreans and possibly Japanese losing their lives. It's not so much a question of "if" (unlike other Communist regimes that snuffed it, I have my doubts that the paranoid Central Committee in Pyongyang are likely to do it without a bang) but "when" and "how many people die".

The recent move of the ROK's government to join the searching of DPRK ships is calling on Kim to show his hand. Now all we have to see is whether he was bluffing to get more tribute or if he has to pull it through to avoid a coup by his underlings/allies.

That's why I hope China decides to side with us openly. If that makes Kim back down, then he backs down. If it doesn't, then there was never any hope, and we'll have to dismantle this theocracy by force.
While I'm sure you guys are enjoying your own chest thumping, remember we're talking about a city that has 10 million in population and is the second largest metropolitan area in the world with a population of 24.5 million and it would be hit in minutes of open war resuming.

That's a lot of people. Add in Tokyo, the largest metropolitan area with 35 million and... well... You're looking at one of the largest disasters to face humanity.

Caution should be the watch word here.

A few points:

1. Its the same war, it never ended.
2. South Korea has a larger and better trained military force than North Korea, with much better weaponry.
3. China will not support North Korea if they are the aggressors.
4. As long as South Korea and NATO keep a level head this will only end very badly for North Korea.

4. As long as South Korea and NATO keep a level head this will only end very badly for North Korea.

It's not a question of how badly it will end for NK. That was never the question. The question was whether it's worth sacrificing the populations of Seoul and Tokyo which are within striking range of a lot of NK firepower.


Caution should be the watch word here.

There is a way to put an end to it, without sacrificing the populations of Seoul and Tokyo, at least directly. Though the sheer political and more troublesome aftermath would make it very difficult to implement.

A full scale strategic nuclear strike along the entire NK held part of the DMZ, using both conventional and cobalt salted bombs. The ensuing destruction and high radioactivity would reliably nullify most of its striking power quick enough that very little would be able to begin the attack on Seoul.

Naturally, while theoretically possible, it is as likely as moving the populace of Tokyo to the moon.

So now that NK has nerfed the armistice, if they claim they will conduct more missile tests, should those missiles be shot down when fired? How is anybody but NK suppose to know what the payload is? Treat any test as an actual nuke launch from now on?

While I'm sure you guys are enjoying your own chest thumping, remember we're talking about a city that has 10 million in population and is the second largest metropolitan area in the world with a population of 24.5 million and it would be hit in minutes of open war resuming.

That's a lot of people. Add in Tokyo, the largest metropolitan area with 35 million and... well... You're looking at one of the largest disasters to face humanity.

Caution should be the watch word here.

I know that a war would be devastating, hence my hope that Kim backs down despite my desire to see the DPRK dismantled.

Mind you, if Kim were to use nuclear weapons against Japan, he'd go down in history along with Hitler and Stalin.

Mind you, if Kim were to use nuclear weapons against Japan, he'd go down in history along with Hitler and Stalin.
Uh, wouldn't that actually put him in the history books along with Truman?

Uh, wouldn't that actually put him in the history books along with Truman?

Truman used nuclear weapons to end a war. We would be talking about Kim Jong-Il using nuclear weapons against a nation that not only has done nothing to provoke him, but poses no threat to him.

I know, I know. Just the way you wrote that sentence struck me funny.

While I'm sure you guys are enjoying your own chest thumping, remember we're talking about a city that has 10 million in population and is the second largest metropolitan area in the world with a population of 24.5 million and it would be hit in minutes of open war resuming.

That's a lot of people. Add in Tokyo, the largest metropolitan area with 35 million and... well... You're looking at one of the largest disasters to face humanity.

Caution should be the watch word here.Aye, but the question really is, will caution help make things better if time will only serve to allow the DPRK to harm more people? This all wouldn't be so much of an issue if you could refer to the North Korean Regime as rational. Instead, the opposing side is lead by an overly self-confident and immature leader used to blackmailing the rest of the world with threats, and occasionally acts, of force.

But it sure is a callous and inhuman question to ask, I'll give you that.

Essentially, the only thing about the future of this situation that can be predicted with a modicum of certainty, is that the scale of one of the largest disasters to face humanity will increase.

Mind you, if Kim were to use nuclear weapons against Japan, he'd go down in history along with Hitler and Stalin.I know, that much fame is a good reason too ;)

My hope is that whatever happens, the Korean people--all of them--come out of it as unharmed as possible. North Korea has been a stain on the Korean people for a long time now, and will hopefully soon be gone.

My hope is that whatever happens, the Korean people--all of them--come out of it as unharmed as possible. North Korea has been a stain on the Korean people for a long time now, and will hopefully soon be gone.

I would like for Korea To be unified peacefully under a (real) democratic government.

So now NK looks to be setting up for a long range missile test.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25568573-663,00.html
How can anyone but NK know for sure it would just be a test? Should this missile be shot down right after launch? Should the missile be bombed where it sits right now?

http://www.leasticoulddo.com/comic/20090601

Yeah, it's like that.

http://www.leasticoulddo.com/comic/20090601

Yeah, it's like that.
No, there's actually no UN symbol on the far wall of the UNSC...

Ok, if they aren't, neither are we. Send in the bombers and level the entire country.

Ok, if they aren't, neither are we. Send in the bombers and level the entire country.

Including South Korea? How Kimchi of you.

Including South Korea? How Kimchi of you.

No man no problem :p

Including South Korea? How Kimchi of you.

No, they're the good ones. Just the North.

No, they're the good ones. Just the North.

You do realize that if the bombers do go in, that row of artillery and missiles pointed at South Korea will go off as Kim does his own Samson Option? And if you're one of those "Oh They're Just Slant Eyes, They'll Multiply" type there's also a nice collection of U.S. military installations throughout the South that'll end up getting blasted as well.

You do realize that if the bombers do go in, that row of artillery and missiles pointed at South Korea will go off as Kim does his own Samson Option? And if you're one of those "Oh They're Just Slant Eyes, They'll Multiply" type there's also a nice collection of U.S. military installations throughout the South that'll end up getting blasted as well.

Thats why we blow those up too.

Thats why we blow those up too.

Pentagon estimations, IIRC, showed that even with non-stop continuous bombing runs, North Korean artillery would still be able to rain several hundred thousand shells on Seoul and the surrounding region for a few days, with six digit casualty counts in just civilians alone.

There's no magic wand to do away with that little detail.

You could try nuking the area I suppose, but that has nasty things like fallout, not to mention the immediate political consequences of a nuclear first strike, not counting a North Korean nuclear response to, oh, I don't know, Tokyo.