NationStates Jolt Archive

Scientology on trial in France

The Church of Scientology has gone on trial in the French capital, Paris, accused of organised fraud.

The case centres on a complaint by a woman who says she was pressured into paying large sums of money after being offered a free personality test.

The church, which is fighting the charges, denies that any mental manipulation took place.

France regards Scientology as a sect, not a religion, and the organisation could be banned if it loses the case.

It will be the first time the church has appeared as a defendant in a fraud case in France. Previous court cases have involved individual Scientologists.

Books and medication

The woman at the centre of the case says she was approached by church members in Paris 10 years ago, and offered a free personality test. But, she says, she ended up spending 21,000 euros ($29,400, £18,400) on lessons, books and medicines she was told would cure her poor mental state.

Her lawyers are arguing that the church systematically seeks to make money by means of mental pressure and the use of scientifically dubious "cures".

A lawyer for the church, Patrick Maisonneuve, said: "We will contest every charge and prove that there was no mental manipulation."

The church's spokeswoman in France said it was being "hounded" by the French courts.

Scientology was founded in the United States in the 1954 by science-fiction writer L Ron Hubbard. High profile supporters include the Hollywood stars John Travolta and Tom Cruise.

In Germany last year, it was declared unconstitutional.

However, a Spanish court ruled that the Church of Scientology of Spain should be re-entered into the country's register of officially recognised religions.

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8066743.stm)

Really NSG? Really?

Scientology faces trial and there is not a thread on it?

Anyway, what do you believe the outcome will be? Will Scientology be found to be a huge fraud officially? Will it kickstart other governments into looking seriously at its practices?

I hope it is found to be guilty after all the reports I've heard of it.

How is that even possible?

How is that even possible?

How is what even possible?

How is what even possible?

That's not true! That's impossible!

http://starwarsdotcom.com/star_wars/gallery/characters/pics/luke/esb_luke73.jpg

How is what even possible?

Erm... to put a religon on trial?

If their lawyers have achieved Operating Thetan level 48+, then no mere court can stand against them.

Erm... to put a religon on trial?

A fair point. One can of course put the leaders of said religion on trial, but they are not the religion itself.
Then again, we can sue corporations.

Erm... to put a religon on trial?

Well, when officials are getting reports of alleged crimes being committed by anyone, they're going to get investigated be it a person, a business or religion. Scientology is an organisation, accused of fraud. Fraud is a pretty big deal, therefore Scientology must face a trial to find out if it is fraudulent or not.

Well, when officials are getting reports of alleged crimes being committed by anyone, they're going to get investigated be it a person, a business or religion. Scientology is an organisation, accused of fraud. Fraud is a pretty big deal, therefore Scientology must face a trial to find out if it is fraudulent or not.

So... I could, lets say- sue Christianity for being a lie?

So... I could, lets say- sue Christianity for being a lie?

That has been done several times IIRC. Case was dismissed every time.

That has been done several times IIRC. Case was dismissed every time.

I don't see how it could be thrown out.

So... I could, lets say- sue Christianity for being a lie?

Do you have proof it is a lie?

Do you have proof it is a lie?

Well, gods supposed to be everywhere, and yet I've not once seen him.

So... I could, lets say- sue Christianity for being a lie?

it....um....it doesn't work that way.

Well, gods supposed to be everywhere, and yet I've not once seen him.

That's not proof. There needs to be physical evidence that shows Christianity is a lie, no evidence usually means case thrown out of court.

That's not proof. There needs to be physical evidence that shows Christianity is a lie, no evidence usually means case thrown out of court.

Well is there physical evidence that anything of it is true?

Well is there physical evidence that anything of it is true?

Now we get to complications. Some will cite the Bible, others will claim the Shorud of Turin, someone would probably say they have a piece of the cross Jesus was crucified upon.

However none of these can be proved to be what they really are, except the Shroud of Turin which I think was made a few hundred years after Jesus supposedly died.

Really there is no evidence to the support nor challenge Christianity.

Now we get to complications. Some will cite the Bible, others will claim the Shorud of Turin, someone would probably say they have a piece of the cross Jesus was crucified upon.

However none of these can be proved to be what they really are, except the Shroud of Turin which I think was made a few hundred years after Jesus supposedly died.

Really there is no evidence to the support nor challenge Christianity.

There are other religions to sue though...

Well is there physical evidence that anything of it is true?

*ponders*
I am actually wondering if one CAN sue religion for merely not being true.
Of course, you could try a "this religion promotes hate speech" approach. Or "this religion encourages criminal activities".

Hmm. let us leave this to the resident lawyers.
*sacrifices some white goats to call them to this topic*

Erm... to put a religon on trial?

Errr...
France regards Scientology as a sect, not a religion, and the organisation could be banned if it loses the case.


So... I could, lets say- sue Christianity for being a lie?

Lying is not illegal.

Well is there physical evidence that anything of it is true?

The burden of proof is on you for accusing Chrisitanity for 'Lying'.

*ponders*
I am actually wondering if one CAN sue religion for merely not being true.
Well, it seems that you can sue anything at all these days.
Of course, you could try a "this religion promotes hate speech" approach. Or "this religion encourages criminal activities".

Are there any?

There are other religions to sue though...

And you'll run into the same problem as with Christianity. What's going on in this case with Scientology is not if the teachings of the Scientology are real or not but whether it has actually broken the law.

You could probably sue a religion if it did explicitly break the law and did something to you directly, but then you'd be suing the accussed not the teachings.

Lying is not illegal.



But it might be done as fraud.

But it might be done as fraud.

Lying and fraud though similar, are two different things. Fraud usually involves someone lying about their financial circumstance to get more money or in this case lying/duping someone into giving them money for stuff that doesn't work.

I could tell you that I had bacon for breakfast, I'd be lying but it wouldn't be fraud.

I am actually wondering if one CAN sue religion for merely not being true.

No, you can't.

But it might be done as fraud.

then say fraud and not 'lying'.

and you'll still have the burden of proof.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand, I commend this woman for taking Scientology to trail, but I don't think she'll win.

Scientology has some of the best lawyers on their side, and they will crush her.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand, I commend this woman for taking Scientology to trail, but I don't think she'll win.

Scientology has some of the best lawyers on their side, and they will crush her.

Somebody needs to call Anonymous. I'm sure they could help somehow.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand, I commend this woman for taking Scientology to trail, but I don't think she'll win.

Scientology has some of the best lawyers on their side, and they will crush her.

Not necessarily. Scientolgy went on trial in Germany and its now listed as unconstitutional. She has a chance of winning, if she can get the evidence.

"France regards Scientology as a sect, not a religion, and the organisation could be banned if it loses the case."

On what basis do they regard them as a sect and not a religion? Has acourt determined they are a sect or is this an arbitrary governmental decision? If it was determined legally to be a sect, what standards were used to make this determination and how did they differ from say Christianity being regarded as a sect.

Ring of Isengard, it doesn't work like that. The church is being sued as organized fraud because they (it is being argued) put mentral pressure on people in order to 'prove' to them they 'need' what the 'Church' is selling. It's not the same as suing the ideas behind Scientology like you are claiming to want to do for Christianity - "Where are the Gods!?" -

They are being sued due to their fradulent practices, not ideology. . . . . so, like someone else said, it doesn't work that way. Stop thread-jacking.

So... I could, lets say- sue Christianity for being a lie?
In my expert legal opinion* fraud isn't the same as lying about the nature/existence of God/gods.
Somebody needs to call Anonymous. I'm sure they could help somehow.
They can stand outside the court in France with Guy Fawkes masks on and......em......disrupt court proceedings by singing Rick Astely?
"France regards Scientology as a sect, not a religion, and the organisation could be banned if it loses the case."

On what basis do they regard them as a sect and not a religion? Has acourt determined they are a sect or is this an arbitrary governmental decision? If it was determined legally to be a sect, what standards were used to make this determination and how did they differ from say Christianity being regarded as a sect.

I'd go a-googling, but I get the feeling all I'll find is websites in French.


*Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Hmm. let us leave this to the resident lawyers.
*sacrifices some white goats to call them to this topic*

They work for Wolfram & Hart?

I have a hard time believing the charges will stick, but it's France, so... I guess there's at least a chance? I mean, it would piss a lot of people off, and that's at least half of France's stated purpose for being, right?

If the CoS IS found guilty, I think it could have some effects in other countries, definitely. Germany is already pretty hostile toward Scientology, and if Germany and France get together and agree on something...

If their lawyers have achieved Operating Thetan level 48+, then no mere court can stand against them.

Is that over nine thousand?

If the CoS IS found guilty, I think it could have some effects in other countries, definitely. Germany is already pretty hostile toward Scientology, and if Germany and France get together and agree on something...

:O One of the End Signs!

*ponders*
I am actually wondering if one CAN sue religion for merely not being true.
Of course, you could try a "this religion promotes hate speech" approach. Or "this religion encourages criminal activities".

Billy Connelly totally sued God for a freak act of God iirc

then again that was a movie...

Somebody needs to call Anonymous. I'm sure they could help somehow.

get em boys! (http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3562/4chan.jpg)

and if Germany and France get together and agree on something...

an EU wide ban on Scientology? can you imagine the horror of a right wrong Scientology alliance!

:O One of the End Signs!

But don't Germany and France already agree on a few things?

Like which two countries should have the biggest influence in the EU for example..

I am at a cross about what I should think of scientology. On one hand I know it's a fraudulent cult. On the other hand, are we to outlaw that at the expense of freedom of association?

Somebody needs to call Anonymous. I'm sure they could help somehow.

Aren't they too busy picking on much more powerful targets like Boxxy nowadays?

Like which two countries should have the biggest influence in the EU for example..

Italy and the UK?

I am at a cross about what I should think of scientology. On one hand I know it's a fraudulent cult. On the other hand, are we to outlaw that at the expense of freedom of association?

surely you could just make sure Scientology is non-profit :wink:

like that other part of Scientology full of hippies

At this moment scientology is already in court in Belgium.

They are charged for 4 main items:

Being a criminal organisation
Fraud
The illegal practice of medicines
Violations of the privacy law.

surely you could just make sure Scientology is non-profit :wink:
Ah, it seems so simple now! So, donation only? No fees and such, right?

Aren't they too busy picking on much more powerful targets like Boxxy nowadays?

Yeah..

Who would have thought that a group consisting of the dregs of internet society and bored teenages would have such a profound and absolute effect on the beast that is the Church Of Scientology!

Italy and the UK?





Would you like to take a moment to imagine a world in which Bellasconi a large ammount of influence beyond the borders of Italy?

You know, you probably could use the pedophilia issues for a much stronger case against christianity than the fact that it's false -- just use the same methods that get child pornography rings convicted.

Would you like to take a moment to imagine a world in which Bellasconi a large ammount of influence beyond the borders of Italy?

an EU full of corrupt self serving bureaucrats who will never let an inch of power slip through their greedy fingers?

You know, you probably could use the pedophilia issues for a much stronger case against christianity than the fact that it's false -- just use the same methods that get child pornography rings convicted.

are you attempting to sue Christianity for alleged crimes before laws existed?

Would you like to take a moment to imagine a world in which Bellasconi a large ammount of influence beyond the borders of Italy?

Berlusconi may not be to my liking, but Italy has alot worse that it could offer. Anyway, in my opinion Italy needs an authoritarian leader . . . or else things in Italy simply don't work very well . . .

an EU full of corrupt self serving bureaucrats who will never let an inch of power slip through their greedy fingers?




With fake dolls hair and bandanas, yes.

an EU full of corrupt self serving bureaucrats who will never let an inch of power slip through their greedy fingers?


Do you have knowledge of politicians that are not corrupted and self serving?

I like the institute Europe. Since 60 years we are not smashing each other face.

So I'm all in to overpay some greedy politicians when it's preventing war.

Do you have knowledge of politicians that are not corrupted and self serving?

I like the institute Europe. Since 60 years we are not smashing each other face.
Hmm
The civil wars ended with much of the former Yugoslavia reduced to poverty, massive economic disruption and persistent instability across the territories where the worst fighting occurred. These wars were the bloodiest conflicts on European soil since the end of World War II. They were also the first conflicts since World War II to have been formally judged genocidal in character and many key individual participants were subsequently charged with war crimes[2]. The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) was established by the United Nations to prosecute these crimes[3].

The Yugoslav civil wars can be split in three groups of several distinct conflicts:

Wars during the breakup of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia: War in Slovenia (1991)
Croatian War of Independence (1991-1995)
Bosnian War (1992-1995)

Wars in Albanian-populated areas: Kosovo War (1996-1999)
Southern Serbia conflict (2000-2001)
Macedonia conflict (2001)

NATO campaigns against Serbia: NATO bombing of Republika Srpska (1995-96)
NATO bombing of Yugoslavia (1999)

You know, you probably could use the pedophilia issues for a much stronger case against christianity than the fact that it's false -- just use the same methods that get child pornography rings convicted.

It won't work, due to the fact that many politicians are Catholic, while few are Scientologists.

This, of course, also explains why the former is a religion while the latter is not.

Scientology is guilty as hell.
I rule they owe greed and death 1 billion dollars.

Berlusconi may not be to my liking, but Italy has alot worse that it could offer. Anyway, in my opinion Italy needs an authoritarian leader . . . or else things in Italy simply don't work very well . . .

Italy is the most democratic country in the World. Every few years the government collapses and a whole new group gets to rule. Eventually, everyone will get a turn.

I am at a cross about what I should think of scientology. On one hand I know it's a fraudulent cult. On the other hand, are we to outlaw that at the expense of freedom of association?

If people love the teachings of dear old LRH that much they should just track down some Free Zoners (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_(Scientology)) as opposed to an organisation with a controversial history with the law, to say the least.

Hmm

Hmmm. They were not part of the EC.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand, I commend this woman for taking Scientology to trail, but I don't think she'll win.

Scientology has some of the best lawyers on their side, and they will crush her.

Assuming they don't just have a couple of their members burgle her place and trump up fake terrorist charges or some other crap.

Italy is the most democratic country in the World. Every few years the government collapses and a whole new group gets to rule. Eventually, everyone will get a turn.

They just made me Presidente del Consiglio dei Ministri. I don't even speak Italian.

Erm... to put a religon on trial?

Same way the Catholic Church can be put on trial.
It's not the religion (if Scientology was one, which it isn't), it's the organisation.

"France regards Scientology as a sect, not a religion, and the organisation could be banned if it loses the case."

On what basis do they regard them as a sect and not a religion? Has acourt determined they are a sect or is this an arbitrary governmental decision? If it was determined legally to be a sect, what standards were used to make this determination and how did they differ from say Christianity being regarded as a sect.

On the same basis that other groups are regarded as sects and cults rather than religions, I would imagine.

I am at a cross about what I should think of scientology. On one hand I know it's a fraudulent cult. On the other hand, are we to outlaw that at the expense of freedom of association?

It doesn't touch on freedom of association, though.
They can still associate all they want, they just can't extort money from members fraudulently.

A fair point. One can of course put the leaders of said religion on trial, but they are not the religion itself.
Then again, we can sue corporations.

And Churches, hence why people have sued the Catholic Church (with regards to abuse cases for example).


Scientology has some of the best lawyers on their side, and they will crush her.

Maybe, though I believe the French legal system is alreayd quite hostile to them and I believe a lot of trials (including Fraud) aren't jury trials, which is liable to play against Scientology


On what basis do they regard them as a sect and not a religion? Has acourt determined they are a sect or is this an arbitrary governmental decision? If it was determined legally to be a sect, what standards were used to make this determination and how did they differ from say Christianity being regarded as a sect.

I imagine they have pre-defined definitions about what is a sect and what is a religion. For example, a definition often used is that a religion does not charge for it's teachings. Alternatively, some countries, like Belgium, have a strictly defined list of officially recognised religions (the big 5 I believe in this case, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism and Buddism but there may be a couple more) so anything not under that is automatically considered a sect until they are able to prove that they fit the criteria for a religion (but it's a long process)

Though can any religion show that the money they get from their followers isn't fraud? Any solid proof of an afterlife of a supreme being yet?

Though can any religion show that the money they get from their followers isn't fraud? Any solid proof of an afterlife of a supreme being yet?

As far as I know, the Churches in Germany aren't allowed to run a profit. All the money they've got coming in has to go out for charities and the like again.
You could argue that this limits the fraud somewhat. I think it's also one of the reasons why Scientology couldn't get church-status under German law ;)

As far as I know, the Churches in Germany aren't allowed to run a profit. All the money they've got coming in has to go out for charities and the like again.
You could argue that this limits the fraud somewhat. I think it's also one of the reasons why Scientology couldn't get church-status under German law ;)

Is buying some ex-member of the Hitler Youth all the funny hats he could want really a charitable purpose?

Is buying some ex-member of the Hitler Youth all the funny hats he could want really a charitable purpose?

Is donating money to someone that provides a service to you so they can live all that bad?

Is donating money so that an organisation may help the homeless to be able to get some food and maybe some shelter a charitable purpose?

Because that is what the donations are mainly used for.

Though can any religion show that the money they get from their followers isn't fraud? Any solid proof of an afterlife of a supreme being yet?

I believe in the case of most religions the money they get is from voluntary donations, not payment for teachings. You don't have to put money in the collection plate, for example, though you may get glared at for not doing so, you won't be thrown out either.

Is buying some ex-member of the Hitler Youth all the funny hats he could want really a charitable purpose?

Ah, you've spotted the loophole there.
They're allowed to own property (buildings, funny hats, lots of gold kitchenware, etc.)... they just can't run up vast sums of money over a fiscal year and then distribute it to all the bishopry, or whatever else the church variety of the board of directors would be.

I believe in the case of most religions the money they get is from voluntary donations, not payment for teachings. You don't have to put money in the collection plate, for example, though you may get glared at for not doing so, you won't be thrown out either.

Well, since I'm most familiar with the situation in Germany : there you pay tax for the church if you're a member. Will be taken right out of your salary by the government, and handed to the church you're a member of.

Erm... to put a religon on trial?

A "religion", as set of ideas, cannot be tried. A religious "organisation" (such as a Church), being an organisation composed by people, can be tried.

Would you like to take a moment to imagine a world in which Bellasconi a large ammount of influence beyond the borders of Italy?
(It's Berlusconi btw)


wiki: Telecinco
Company
It is currently owned by Mediaset Investimenti (50.1%), Vocento (13%) and free-float (36.9%). In 1997, the corporate identity was changed from Tele 5 to the current Telecinco, dropping Berlusconi's flower logo in the process.

(Mediaset is the media holding of Berlusconi's).

Also FDF Telecinco, Telecinco 2, Cincoshop.

Beware of the psychodwarf, everyone.

Lying is not illegal.
Depends on the context, really. You're not allowed to lie about financial transactions, in court, or about what other people have done in their lives, 'cept it's called fraud, perjury, and slander/libel. Saying that lying isn't illegal is like saying killing isn't illegal because only murder and manslaughter are.
Scientolgy went on trial in Germany and its now listed as unconstitutional. It is?

Is buying some ex-member of the Hitler Youth all the funny hats he could want really a charitable purpose?

It is, when you consider it keeps the Swastika tattoo on his head covered.

Depends on the context, really. You're not allowed to lie about financial transactions, in court, or about what other people have done in their lives, 'cept it's called fraud, perjury, and slander/libel. Saying that lying isn't illegal is like saying killing isn't illegal because only murder and manslaughter are.
It is?ever killed a mosquito? been arrested for it?

Killing (generally) isn't illegal. Just like Lying (Generally) isn't illegal. the devil is in the details.

Vive la France! Goooo Frenchies :)

I'm looking forward to the outcome of this.

A
I imagine they have pre-defined definitions about what is a sect and what is a religion. For example, a definition often used is that a religion does not charge for it's teachings. Alternatively, some countries, like Belgium, have a strictly defined list of officially recognised religions (the big 5 I believe in this case, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism and Buddism but there may be a couple more) so anything not under that is automatically considered a sect until they are able to prove that they fit the criteria for a religion (but it's a long process)

Druids, Vodoo high priests, Pastafarians, Witches, Paegans and any number of other "religions" dont charge. Do they have tax exempt status and are regarded as religions then?

Druids, Vodoo high priests, Pastafarians, Witches, Paegans and any number of other "religions" dont charge. Do they have tax exempt status and are regarded as religions then?

I doubt that it's the only criteria.

Erm... to put a religon on trial?

The Church of Scientology is not a religion.

The Church of Scientology is not a religion.

I can't help but wonder if people said the same thing about Christianity back in 80 AD.

I can't help but wonder if people said the same thing about Christianity back in 80 AD.

Well, it isn't is it. It's a single organisation. There MAY be people who practice the religion (I'll assume it is a religion for now, even though that could be debated) of Scientology outside of the Church of Scientology, but the Church of Scientology itself is clearly one single organisation/business (a despicable one at that), whether or not there exist other groups that practice the religion.

tl;dr Church =/= Religion.

Well, it isn't is it. It's a single organisation. There MAY be people who practice the religion (I'll assume it is a religion for now, even though that could be debated) of Scientology outside of the Church of Scientology....

I'll refer to the free zoners again. They're a variety of different groups of scientologists not affiliated with the CoS. So yeah, some people don't pay for that crazy stuff, they get it free.

I'll refer to the free zoners again. They're a variety of different groups of scientologists not affiliated with the CoS. So yeah, some people don't pay for that crazy stuff, they get it free.

Eggsacklee!

I can't help but wonder if people said the same thing about Christianity back in 80 AD.

Actually they did. It started as a sect, like most religions.

I don't really mind Scientologists but I do tend to try to avoid them. I consider them a wierd cult and am disappointed that the organization was invented and by an American no less.
While I consider it's founder L. Ron Hubbard to be a con artist, I don't mind it's members trying to spread their message, just so long as they don't bother me and I don't have to join.

You know, you probably could use the pedophilia issues for a much stronger case against christianity than the fact that it's false -- just use the same methods that get child pornography rings convicted.
Several Catholic dioceses HAVE been sued, and had to settle for large sums of money, on grounds of tolerating pedophilia (not reporting the perpetrators, moving them to new jobs where they could continue abusing kids, etc.); some non-Catholic groups also.
On the same basis that other groups are regarded as sects and cults rather than religions, I would imagine.
The traditional meaning of "religion" (from the same root as "relic" or "relegate"; that is, something persistently passed on from generation to generation) requires anciency. Since L. Ron Hubbard is still within living memory, Scientology can't count as a religion yet; but if everyone who knew Hubbard died out, and yet Scientology continued to be passed on, at that point it would start to count as a "religion". I'm not sure what the legal definition is in France, but I am sure there is some element of anciency required.
I can't help but wonder if people said the same thing about Christianity back in 80 AD.
PRECISELY. Christianity was still "the cult of Jesus" at that time; it did not become a "religion" until it had been passed on for generations.

PRECISELY. Christianity was still "the cult of Jesus" at that time; it did not become a "religion" until it had been passed on for generations.

Given the track record of the "cult of Jesus" once it reached adulthood, I think it's grounds for strangling CoS before it's old enough to qualify for being a religion then wouldn't you say?

Given the track record of the "cult of Jesus" once it reached adulthood, I think it's grounds for strangling CoS before it's old enough to qualify for being a religion then wouldn't you say?

You know the thought of Scientology ever becoming a major religion is a really fucking scary prospect.

I mean, even by standards of most religions beliefs what they believe is bat-shit insane.

You know the thought of Scientology ever becoming a major religion is a really fucking scary prospect.

I mean, even by standards of most religions beliefs what they believe is bat-shit insane.

I wonder if other religions started off with people thinking "Seriously? This is the shit they believe? This stuff is insane!"

I wonder if other religions started off with people thinking "Seriously? This is the shit they believe? This stuff is insane!"

I would have thought all of them do

I wonder if other religions started off with people thinking "Seriously? This is the shit they believe? This stuff is insane!"

Probably less than you think - most of the religions have revolved around a similar basic concept - divine entities (God or Gods) who created the world is a variety of different ways and who reward followers for worship and/or following their moral path. They may think individual rules/belief sets/acts of worhsip were a bit odd or insane but I imagine the belief structure was probably quite familiar to them

Aliens and alien ghosts kinda takes it into a different ball game.

Probably less than you think - most of the religions have revolved around a similar basic concept - divine entities (God or Gods) who created the world is a variety of different ways and who reward followers for worship and/or following their moral path. They may think individual rules/belief sets/acts of worhsip were a bit odd or insane but I imagine the belief structure was probably quite familiar to them

Aliens and alien ghosts kinda takes it into a different ball game.

See, I can get ancient religions that some god or other is responsible for lightning or rain or whatever. And then more modern religions are basically a step on from them, deciding that its one god doing all these things, or a different set of gods. But Scientology? It all sounds like a drug trip to me.

See, I can get ancient religions that some god or other is responsible for lightning or rain or whatever. And then more modern religions are basically a step on from them, deciding that its one god doing all these things, or a different set of gods. But Scientology? It all sounds like a drug trip to me.

Exactly... batshit insane dreamings of a bad sci-fi author on drugs who decides to make it into a shocking successful money making exercise.

Exactly... batshit insane dreamings of a bad sci-fi author on drugs who decides to make it into a shocking successful money making exercise.

You have an invisible man living in the sky telling naked people not to listen to snakes giving dietary advice or you have invisible body thetans that are spirits from dead souls killed in volcanos that attach to your body causing negative things happen in your life. Pardon me if im confused but which one is the bat shit crazy story again?

You have an invisible man living in the sky telling naked people not to listen to snakes giving dietary advice or you have invisible body thetans that are spirits from dead souls killed in volcanos that attach to your body causing negative things happen in your life. Pardon me if im confused but which one is the bat shit crazy story again?

Aye, all of the religions of the world are nuts. You have some good points sometimes fluid man.

You have an invisible man living in the sky telling naked people not to listen to snakes giving dietary advice or you have invisible body thetans that are spirits from dead souls killed in volcanos that attach to your body causing negative things happen in your life. Pardon me if im confused but which one is the bat shit crazy story again?

Which batshit crazy story group goes out of its way to ruin your life and try to have you framed for horrible crimes if you speak bad about them, and which batshit crazy story group deliberately isolate its members from friends, family and psychiatric help?

Which batshit crazy story group goes out of its way to ruin your life and try to have you framed for horrible crimes if you speak bad about them

Ahem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition)


, and which batshit crazy story group deliberately isolate its members from friends, family and psychiatric help?

Ahem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown) Ahem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege)

You were saying?

Ahem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition)

The Catholic Church has yet to be documented dirtdigging and harassing its more prominent critics, especially to criminal lengths in the modern age. Unless you have proof the Inquisition is active in the 21st Century and is conducting activities on the levels of Operation Freakout, then that example isn't valid.

Ahem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown) Ahem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege)

You were saying?

And are you saying that Jones and Koresh were in fact members of mainstream Church hierarchy? Because with $cientology, there isn't a splinter cult associated with it.

Erm... to put a religon on trial?

This might help.

France regards Scientology as a sect, not a religion, and the organisation could be banned if it loses the case.

It will be the first time the church has appeared as a defendant in a fraud case in France. Previous court cases have involved individual Scientologists.

Which batshit crazy story group goes out of its way to ruin your life

If your an alter boy, having a priest trying to stick his penis up your ass can ruin your whole day.

Which batshit crazy story group goes out of its way to ruin your life and try to have you framed for horrible crimes if you speak bad about them
The EBIL MUZLIMS of course :p

The Catholic Church has yet to be documented dirtdigging and harassing its more prominent critics, especially to criminal lengths in the modern age. Unless you have proof the Inquisition is active in the 21st Century and is conducting activities on the levels of Operation Freakout, then that example isn't valid.

Well, you have to remember that the Catholic Church has been around longer, so they've grown out of that "I put screws to you!" phase. CoS is fairly new, and obviously haven't.

I'll concede the other part.