NationStates Jolt Archive

Teen in prayer death trial says sister was weak

WAUSAU, Wis. – An 11-year-old girl was so weak the day before she died of untreated diabetes that she had to be helped to the bathroom and could only mumble her words, her sister testified Wednesday.

The girls' mother, Leilani Neumann, 41, is on trial for second-degree reckless homicide for praying instead of seeking medical care for Madeline, who died March 23, 2008, at their rural Weston home. Their father also has been charged and will be tried in July.

Neumann has said the family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, and she never expected Madeline to die.

Prosecutors contend a reasonable parent would have known something was gravely wrong with Madeline and her mother recklessly caused her death by praying instead of rushing her to a doctor.

On Wednesday, Madeline's sister, Elizabeth, 16, was the first member of the family to take the witness stand. She showed jurors how she held up Madeline and, with her father, got the girl to the bathroom.

She testified that her sister seemed "cranky but otherwise fine" the morning before she died. But she said her sister's condition quickly deteriorated until she couldn't talk or walk and urinated on a couch.

"We were just very confused about all of a sudden she was just very tired and weak, and we didn't understand," Elizabeth testified. "We were very concerned, and we were praying for her. We didn't know what was going on.

"I thought she was going to come out of it, and it wasn't anything serious," she said.

Elizabeth said she noticed a week earlier that Madeline was tired and drank an unusual amount of water. Doctors have testified that those are both symptoms of diabetes.

Earlier Wednesday, Jennifer Peaslee, a regular member of the Neumanns' Bible study group, testified that she and her husband went to the Neumanns' home the day Madeline died and saw her laying on a bathroom floor unconscious.

Peaslee tried to talk to the girl, who she knew by the nickname Kara, but got no response.

"I was in shock," Peaslee said. "I didn't expect to see Kara like that."

She never considered advising the family to get the girl to a doctor. "Because the Neumanns believe in faith, in God healing rather than the medical doctors," she said. "If you have enough faith, the Lord can do anything."

Peaslee's husband carried Madeline downstairs and placed her on a mattress on the floor. There, the couple joined the Neumanns and their three other children in prayer, and found Biblical phrases related to healing, Peaslee said.

Peaslee said she and her husband left about 1:30 p.m. Madeline died about an hour later.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090520/ap_on_re_us/us_prayer_death)

You really have to wonder where they get these ideas, either from their parents, or from a pastor, wherever. You also have to wonder about the mental stability of these people.

These are the type of people who are most likely to be sucked into a cult.

Prayers did not kill the girl. The girl's mother being a dumbass who neglected to seek medical help killed the girl. A big difference.

The first suggests it's the fault of the prayer and not the mother. The second puts the blame where it belongs: squarely on the shoulders of someone who killed their kid through neglect.

You can't use speech that advocate bodily harm or violence against a person or property, I wonder if you could do the same if your speech encourage this sort of neglectful behavior.

What speech protects this behavior?

Criminal Negligence and Child Abuse, anyone?

What speech protects this behavior?

None that I can see, but what I'm getting at is that I doubt the mother or father came to the conclusion of "Prayers = heal / Modern Medicine = Evil", I'm wondering where they got it from, and if that person could be held accountable.

Well, it shouldn't have been from the Bible. There are plenty of verses that show there is no prohibition against medical treatment or consulting doctors -- and that prayer AND medical treatment are absolutely fine.

In support of Medical treatment and Doctors in the Bible:

Jeremiah 8:22 Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? Why then is there no healing for the wound of my people?

Colossians 4:14 -- Our dear friend Luke, the doctor, and Demas send greetings.

Matthew 9:12 -- On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. "

Ecclesiasticus, Chapter 38:
Ecclesiasticus 38:1 Honour a physician with the honour due unto him for the uses which ye may have of him: for the Lord hath created him.

Ecclesiasticus 38:3 The skill of the physician shall lift up his head: and in the sight of great men he shall be in admiration.
Ecclesiasticus 38:4 The Lord hath created medicines out of the earth; and he that is wise will not abhor them.

Ecclesiasticus 38:12 Then give place to the physician, for the Lord hath created him: let him not go from thee, for thou hast need of him.

Genesis 50:2
And Joseph commanded his servants the physicians to embalm his father: and the physicians embalmed Israel.

Isaiah 38:2(prescribing a poultice) King James Bible
For Isaiah had said, Let them take a lump of figs, and lay it for a plaister upon the boil, and he shall recover.

Mark 2:17 -- King James Bible
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 4:23 -- King James Bible
And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

That said: are you suggesting that an adult should be able to blame someone else to avoid the consequences for his or her own negligence and his or her own decisions?

That said: are you suggesting that an adult should be able to blame someone else to avoid the consequences for his or her own negligence and his or her own decisions?

Not at all. I withdraw my premises since it will probably infringe on freedom of speech too much.

She never considered advising the family to get the girl to a doctor. "Because the Neumanns believe in faith, in God healing rather than the medical doctors," she said. "If you have enough faith, the Lord can do anything.

I suggest we put this to the test. With a medical team on standby, disembowel Peaslee, and let's see if god will put her intestines back before she dies from a slow and agonizing death. If she recants, record the recantation and sew her up. If not, well, too bad for her. She clearly didn't have enough faith then.

Sarcasm? Maybe. Maybe not. When the stupid is enough to burn, maybe removing it from existence does everyone else a favor.

Unfortunately, until the government puts a stop to this, there'll be more idiotic, needles deaths like this.

On a random note, I mentioned this elsewhere (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14806007&postcount=60) yesterday (technically the day before yesterday, seeing as it's past midnight), but let's keep this topic open since we don't need it buried in another topic.

That said: are you suggesting that an adult should be able to blame someone else to avoid the consequences for his or her own negligence and his or her own decisions?

Sometimes - sure. If I for instance ask a doctor if I need surgery and he says "nah", while in reality I do, I can and will blame him for my decision not to have surgery and any negative effects resulting from that decision.

Similarily, if the mother in question had asked her priest if she needed to seek medical attention for her child, and her priest told her "no, God will heal", one can and should blame the priest. He is an authority figure. His words carry weight. His advice is trusted. And as uncle Ben told us: great power comes with great responsibility.

EDIT: in the Netherlands we actually have a court case about this now. Jomanda, a well known "faith healer", is being prosecuted for repeatedly telling tv personality Millecam that contrary to what the doctors claimed, Millecam did not have cancer, was not dying and did not need to seek help. Millecam of course died - and the court is now examining if that was her own fault for choosing to believe Jomanda over the doctors, or if Jomanda is guilty.

I've never been religious at all, but at the rate people pray, god might have a number booth.

Unfortunately, until the government puts a stop to this, there'll be more idiotic, needles deaths like this.

On a random note, I mentioned this elsewhere (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14806007&postcount=60) yesterday (technically the day before yesterday, seeing as it's past midnight), but let's keep this topic open since we don't need it buried in another topic.

They've got a remote martyr complex. As long as it's someone else dying, no matter how closely related, they'll hold onto their idiotic beliefs. Putting a stop to it will get all sorts of constitutional challenges.

They've got a remote martyr complex. As long as it's someone else dying, no matter how closely related, they'll hold onto their idiotic beliefs. Putting a stop to it will get all sorts of constitutional challenges.

True, but the sooner they take action, the sooner the supreme court laughs the challengers out of the courtroom.

They've got a remote martyr complex. As long as it's someone else dying, no matter how closely related, they'll hold onto their idiotic beliefs. Putting a stop to it will get all sorts of constitutional challenges.

Not to mention if the government does step in, the Religious Right will be up in arms about religious freedom, and that may just swing them back into power.

Not to mention if the government does step in, the Religious Right will be up in arms about religious freedom, and that may just swing them back into power.

Not if the media keeps mentioning Madeline Neumann, Ava Worthington, and such. :)

Similarily, if the mother in question had asked her priest if she needed to seek medical attention for her child, and her priest told her "no, God will heal", one can and should blame the priest. He is an authority figure. His words carry weight. His advice is trusted. And as uncle Ben told us: great power comes with great responsibility.

Only if he's purporting to be a licensed doctor. I can give you all kinds of advice about how to fix that grinding sound your car makes, but if I am open about having no mechanical experience whatsoever, it's your dumb fault if you take my advice and beat the hell out of the engine with a baseball bat.

Being an agnostic (ever more quickly swinging towards atheism based on incidents like this one) I find this incomprehensible. Of course these people, like most religious types (doesn't matter what religion) pick and choose what they want to believe and ignore little things like "thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." And if anything was ever a case of tempting a deity, this was.

In any case how can you believe in a God who's so easy to tempt?

Not to mention if the government does step in, the Religious Right will be up in arms about religious freedom, and that may just swing them back into power.

Ridiculous. Very few Christians hold these kinds of archaic and extreme views when it comes to medical treatment. The Christian Right will clamor and rage about those damn gays and baby killers, but they're not going to put their name next to a dead child. It's political suicide.

Ridiculous. Very few Christians hold these kinds of archaic and extreme views when it comes to medical treatment. The Christian Right will clamor and rage about those damn gays and baby killers, but they're not going to put their name next to a dead child. It's political suicide.

No, but as the Terri Schiavo fiasco proves, they're willing to put it next to a brain dead woman's and claim she's alive.

Ridiculous. Very few Christians hold these kinds of archaic and extreme views when it comes to medical treatment. The Christian Right will clamor and rage about those damn gays and baby killers, but they're not going to put their name next to a dead child. It's political suicide.

Who said they'd even mentioned the dead child? All they have to do is make it look like the government (code word for Democrats) are trying to restrict freedom of religion, and the rabble rabble begins, and it will have some success because as a nation, we have ADD.

Ridiculous. Very few Christians hold these kinds of archaic and extreme views when it comes to medical treatment. The Christian Right will clamor and rage about those damn gays and baby killers, but they're not going to put their name next to a dead child. It's political suicide.

True. Besides, that would mean that they support freedom of religion. And they only support freedom of religion when it's their religion.

If the courts are sensible, they'd find both Jomanda and Millecam at blame for Millecam's death.

In Alma Mater's example, a sensible court would *AT LEAST* (A) find the priest guilty of negligent homicide and (B) declare the parents guilty of gross negligence and (in addition to the appropriate time in jail) strip them of any remaining children.

No, I'm not a lawyer, but when a case is this clear...

If the courts are sensible, they'd find both Jomanda and Millecam at blame for Millecam's death.

In Alma Mater's example, a sensible court would *AT LEAST* (A) find the priest guilty of negligent homicide and (B) declare the parents guilty of gross negligence and (in addition to the appropriate time in jail) strip them of any remaining children.

No, I'm not a lawyer, but when a case is this clear...

How is the priest guilty of anything?

How is the priest guilty of anything?

He gave advice that kills the child. If the priest refused to answer, it's entirely likely the the mother would bring the child in for hospital treatment.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090520/ap_on_re_us/us_prayer_death)

You really have to wonder where they get these ideas, either from their parents, or from a pastor, wherever. You also have to wonder about the mental stability of these people.

These are the type of people who are most likely to be sucked into a cult.

Good god that was disgusting negligence. That kid was obviously suffering a sudden and rapid blood sugar low. Could've been saved easily too with some candy or something like that.

This is disturbing. This death should not have happened. :(

The girls' mother, Leilani Neumann, 41, is on trial for second-degree reckless homicide for praying instead of seeking medical care for Madeline, who died March 23, 2008, at their rural Weston home. Their father also has been charged and will be tried in July.

Neumann has said the family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, and she never expected Madeline to die.

Prosecutors contend a reasonable parent would have known something was gravely wrong with Madeline and her mother recklessly caused her death by praying instead of rushing her to a doctor.

On Wednesday, Madeline's sister, Elizabeth, 16, was the first member of the family to take the witness stand. She showed jurors how she held up Madeline and, with her father, got the girl to the bathroom.


SO MUCH FOR THE PARENTS' RIGHTS TO GROW THEIR KIDS AS THEY SEE FIT!!!

This shows, for the (n-to-the-m-th)th time, that parents have NO rights on their children. They are merely WARDS of the child's rights - as such, they have obligations towards the child and towards society.

I do hope that the courts will take the other children away from that family, on account of criminal incompetence.


btw:

She never considered advising the family to get the girl to a doctor. "Because the Neumanns believe in faith, in God healing rather than the medical doctors," she said. "If you have enough faith, the Lord can do anything."


Clearly, they do not have enough faith. By their own standards... BURN IN HELL, THEN! :mad: :headbang:

No, but as the Terri Schiavo fiasco proves, they're willing to put it next to a brain dead woman's and claim she's alive.

Already done this side of the pond: google "Eluana Englaro".

Obviously I don't believe that people should be legally banned from praying or believing in whatever bullshit superstitious crap they want. However, I do believe in shaming as a mechanism for change.

I'm sick of stories like this one because people show up to say how awful it was for that parent to neglect their child, but they fail to condemn the source of the problem, which is the religions that made those parents stupid in the first place. Everyone is so sad that YET ANOTHER kid died this way, but we're always supposed to pretend it just happened in a vacuum and the only blame is on the parents. We're supposed to ignore the fact that our culture coddles and encourages the exact beliefs that led these parents to basically murder their child.

Religions that teach this kind of thing should be publicly shamed. They should be told unequivocally that they are wrong and that they are directly responsible for hurting and killing people with their lies. And they should be called LIES, because that's what they are. Claiming that Gawd will Heel U if you pray is a lie, claiming that prayer is effective medical treatment for diabetes is a lie, and I'm tired of how everyone seems to need to be delicate and polite and spare the poor feelings of the lying liars who perpetuate this vile bullshit.

People who believe this nonsense should be told, to their faces, that they are ignorant and a danger to themselves and others. If they try to spread this nonsense they should be publicly shamed for being liars and con artists. And nobody should ever be allowed to hide behind "religion" as if that's some kind of excuse.

Whatever happened to the old adage that "God helps those who help themselves"

Frankly I think the criminal neglect (which is what this is) based on religious beliefs should be treated the same as any type of neglect or abuse - if the parent is endangering a child by their inaction then they should be taken into care by social services. People have the right to believe what they want, they don't have the right to screw over their kids lives because of those beliefs.

It seems clear cut to me. If we live in a theocracy then nowt can be done, but we live in a secular world with supposedly secular goverement and law, so a child neglect case please Bob!

All I can do is facepalm... there are no words that can truly describe how stupid this mother and this father were. None. Their negligence is OUTSTANDING!

So, what, is this the season for mind bogglingly stupid people letting their children die rather than going to a fucking doctor? Ugh.

I'm a bit torn on this one.

On the one hand I don't want to see incidents like this, which are rare, be the trigger for more Government intrusion in people's private and religious lives.

On the other hand I *DO* think these parents are to blame on the grounds that they didn't approach their religion logically. The mentality that they needn't lift a finger to seek medical care for their daughter on the grounds that it's God's job is no different than sitting around the house on your lazy bum and letting the bills pile up on the grounds that the "Lord will provide."

God gave us each intelligence, common sense and reason and meant for us to USE them, not to cast them aside and play helpless. These parents were foolish and wrong. This isn't a matter of religion, it's a matter of a criminal and shocking lack of simple reasoning.

On the other hand I *DO* think these parents are to blame on the grounds that they didn't approach their religion logically. The mentality that they needn't lift a finger to seek medical care for their daughter on the grounds that it's God's job is no different than sitting around the house on your lazy bum and letting the bills pile up on the grounds that the "Lord will provide."

God gave us each intelligence, common sense and reason and meant for us to USE them, not to cast them aside and play helpless. These parents were foolish and wrong. This isn't a matter of religion, it's a matter of a criminal and shocking lack of simple reasoning.

I have an idea. Death penalty for the parents by burning. But make it into a sort of "Truth or Dare" gameshow. Title it as "How Strong is your faith?"

Tell the parents that they'll be allowed to walk away free if they survive the torching through faith. Heck, promise them big cash prizes if it works. Then torch them. Televise the burning, but with cheery, cheesy game show slant to it.

Allow applicants to enter the show to "test their faith".

With any luck, there won't be an idiot of that flavor left alive after a while.

So, are the parents going to try another faith? The one they happened upon is broken.

Eliminating this kind of stupidity from the gene pool would be a good thing, if only it were the parents, and not the kids dying.:(

To be fair this kind of thing can develop suddenly. My daughter's best friend nearly died from something like this. She was really thirsty for a few days, but her mom didn't pay attention because she thought maybe she was just hot (it was summer) and then the next thing she knew her kid was passed out in the bathroom, and being rushed to the hospital. She'd never been sick before and hadn't been diagnosed with anything at the point that she was suddenly very very sick.

Her mom didn't know the symptoms of ketoacidosis, she'd never encountered it before.

Who said they'd even mentioned the dead child? All they have to do is make it look like the government (code word for Democrats) are trying to restrict freedom of religion, and the rabble rabble begins, and it will have some success because as a nation, we have ADD.

They'd probably make up some ridiculous slippery slope thing, too. "If we allow the government to keep parents from sitting by while their children die, they'll also make it so we can't take our kids to church!"

To be fair this kind of thing can develop suddenly. My daughter's best friend nearly died from something like this. She was really thirsty for a few days, but her mom didn't pay attention because she thought maybe she was just hot (it was summer) and then the next thing she knew her kid was passed out in the bathroom, and being rushed to the hospital. She'd never been sick before and hadn't been diagnosed with anything at the point that she was suddenly very very sick.

Her mom didn't know the symptoms of ketoacidosis, she'd never encountered it before.

But at least she rushed the child to the hospital when it was clear that something was wrong.

These parents had a child who couldn't stand on her own to get to the bathroom and who ended up passed out and didn't seek medical attention.

He gave advice that kills the child. If the priest refused to answer, it's entirely likely the the mother would bring the child in for hospital treatment.

what advice did the Priest give? was it medical or religious?

hard to prove that the priest was involved.

that being said...

it's not Prayer that killed the child. nor was it the parents praying. but it was their inability to reconize God's reply.

he showed them that she wasn't getting better, gave signs that she was, in fact, getting worse.

he finally sent the Peaslee's over and still they didn't see what God was showing them.

like most people, they pray, they talk, but they don't look, listen or even expect a reply outside of what they want to see and hear. :(

what advice did the Priest give? was it medical or religious?

hard to prove that the priest was involved.

that being said...

it's not Prayer that killed the child. nor was it the parents praying. but it was their inability to reconize God's reply.

he showed them that she wasn't getting better, gave signs that she was, in fact, getting worse.

he finally sent the Peaslee's over and still they didn't see what God was showing them.

like most people, they pray, they talk, but they don't look, listen or even expect a reply outside of what they want to see and hear. :(

A man heard on the radio that there was an imminent flood warning. As people were preparing to evacuate he calmly climbed up onto the roof of his house. When an evacuation bus pulled up to the house to take him to safety he declined, saying "No need. God will save me."

Well the waters came, and quickly the house was up to the gutters in water. A boat floated by and offered to take him to safety. "No need." He said. "God will rescue me."

As the water rose even higher and started to cover the roof, a helicopter hovered over and lowered a rope ladder to him. He waved it off, saying "I don't need it. God will save me."

A short while later he drowned.

As he approached God in Heaven, he angrily spoke, saying "Lord, why did you let me die? I had faith in you! I had faith that you'd save me from the flood but you just let me drown!"

And God looked at him and said "My child, I sent you a bus, a boat, and a helicopter! What more did you want???"

what advice did the Priest give? was it medical or religious?

hard to prove that the priest was involved.

that being said...

it's not Prayer that killed the child. nor was it the parents praying. but it was their inability to reconize God's reply.

he showed them that she wasn't getting better, gave signs that she was, in fact, getting worse.

he finally sent the Peaslee's over and still they didn't see what God was showing them.

like most people, they pray, they talk, but they don't look, listen or even expect a reply outside of what they want to see and hear. :(

It's Alma Mater's hypothetical (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14809181&postcount=11) not mine, but seeing as the priest's response in it is "no, God will heal"...

If you think that no one is immortal and have some understanding of relativity and time being an illusion, people wouldn't get so worked up on time and other tragedies anymore :p

If the courts are sensible, they'd find both Jomanda and Millecam at blame for Millecam's death.

The prosecutor outlined his case today. Slightly different from what I was expecting - he posits that someone who has heard they are seriously ill and will have to undergo unpleasant medical treatment to stay alive can be assumed to not be in a mental state where they are capable of making informed decisions and are easy to manipulate.

As such, he does put a majority of the blame on Jomanda.

A man heard on the radio that there was an imminent flood warning. As people were preparing to evacuate he calmly climbed up onto the roof of his house. When an evacuation bus pulled up to the house to take him to safety he declined, saying "No need. God will save me."

Well the waters came, and quickly the house was up to the gutters in water. A boat floated by and offered to take him to safety. "No need." He said. "God will rescue me."

As the water rose even higher and started to cover the roof, a helicopter hovered over and lowered a rope ladder to him. He waved it off, saying "I don't need it. God will save me."

A short while later he drowned.

As he approached God in Heaven, he angrily spoke, saying "Lord, why did you let me die? I had faith in you! I had faith that you'd save me from the flood but you just let me drown!"

And God looked at him and said "My child, I sent you a bus, a boat, and a helicopter! What more did you want???"

This, while trite, really drives home the point. There is nothing wrong if you want to pray for a child to get better. Knock yourselves out. However, you need to act in harmony with those prayers - take them to a doctor.

There's a southern version too:

Joe and Billy Bob were cutting across a farmer's field when a bull charged them. Naturally, Joe and Billy Bob began to run.

They had been running flat out and were about halfway to the fence when Billy Bob said, "You know, Momma always said that God will give us help when we need it, so I think we should stop and pray."

Joe responded, "Well, if it's all the same to God, I'm going to run and pray at the same time."

It's Alma Mater's hypothetical (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14809181&postcount=11) not mine, but seeing as the priest's response in it is "no, God will heal"...

ah, but his hypothetical said 'if'.

also, even IF the preist did reply as such, and IF the priest is convicted...

that means each and every one on these boards who's offered advice in either legal or medical or even social are going to be held responsible for their advice given.

a FUCKING HUGE slippery slope if there ever was one. ;)

ah, but his hypothetical said 'if'.

also, even IF the preist did reply as such, and IF the priest is convicted...

that means each and every one on these boards who's offered advice in either legal or medical or even social are going to be held responsible for their advice given.

a FUCKING HUGE slippery slope if there ever was one. ;)

Not necessarily. I think the argument is that the priest is in a position of authority, and is thus more responsible. "Random person on the internet" isn't really in a position of authority.

that means each and every one on these boards who's offered advice in either legal or medical or even social are going to be held responsible for their advice given.

Only if they are authority figures ;) So goofballs has to be careful :p

Only if they are authority figures ;) So goofballs has to be careful :p

Goofballs? careful?

...

he's doomed. :tongue:

Well I still don't see why would the priest get convicted, or in fact any such "authority" including let's say, doctors, scientists, engineers, and whatever. If the people trust them and have belief in them, why punish them? It's like treating people as sheep, which they are, but have the ability to understand and grow beyond -- this should be encouraged.

Well I still don't see why would the priest get convicted, or in fact any such "authority" including let's say, doctors, scientists, engineers, and whatever. If the people trust them and have belief in them, why punish them? It's like treating people as sheep, which they are, but have the ability to understand and grow beyond -- this should be encouraged.

People have the ability to understand things, but not always the background. There's a reason that people look to doctors for medical advice - because the doctors are trained in it. A doctor who routinely gives out bad medical advice should be disciplined.

It's impossible for a single person to know everything. There simply isn't enough time in the day. So we have experts to rely on for some things.

Only if they are authority figures ;) So goofballs has to be careful :p

Goofballs? careful?

...

he's doomed. :tongue:

They have to catch me first. ;)

They have to catch me first. ;)

I am sure that most Generalites would be happy to provide you with safe hideouts,;) but I am equally sure that would be the first place the authorities would look.:(

I am sure that most Generalites would be happy to provide you with safe hideouts,;) but I am equally sure that would be the first place the authorities would look.:(

Second...

the first would be every mudhole in the country. :p

Second...

the first would be every mudhole in the country. :p

Point taken. :)

Don't forget pie shops and Clown colleges.

I am sure that most Generalites would be happy to provide you with safe hideouts,;) but I am equally sure that would be the first place the authorities would look.:(

Second...

the first would be every mudhole in the country. :p

Don't forget pie shops and Clown colleges.

And taco stands. :D

And taco stands. :D

Well, I guess you proved your point. Even we can't keep track of you.:tongue:

What if LG went to a totally serious place? Like the Library of Congress?

What if LG went to a totally serious place? Like the Library of Congress?

I'd probably cause a disruption. *nod*

I'd probably cause a disruption. *nod*

You'd probably start a Bible Fight.

Hmm, my niece baptism is coming up...maybe I should start a Bible Fight.

You'd probably start a Bible Fight.

Hmm, my niece baptism is coming up...maybe I should start a Bible Fight.

You know how some wackos refer to the bible as their sword? Time to see if they've been brushing up on their fencing.:D

Reminds me of this:

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/GetFuzzyKantReason.jpg

Reminds me of this:

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/GetFuzzyKantReason.jpg

Get Fuzzy is the XKCD of Newspapers: A strip for every occasion.:wink:

I've never been religious at all, but at the rate people pray, god might have a number booth.

God answers every prayer. In this case I'm fairly certain the answer was "take her to a fucking doctor you dumb bitch! Why do you think I filled your skull with all that wiggly goo?"

It's a shame when people think they're being religious by telling God how he ought to do things.

God answers every prayer. In this case I'm fairly certain the answer was "take her to a fucking doctor you dumb bitch! Why do you think I filled your skull with all that wiggly goo?"

It's a shame when people think they're being religious by telling God how he ought to do things.

Jesus also said to never tempt Yahweh.

Luke 4:12

12Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'[a]"

I'm sure there was a thread on this last year.

I'm sure there was a thread on this last year.

There was always a thread on this last year. Regardless of whatever "this" we are talking about.

I'm sure there was a thread on this last year.

and there will be a thread about it next time this situation pops up.

God answers every prayer. In this case I'm fairly certain the answer was "take her to a fucking doctor you dumb bitch! Why do you think I filled your skull with all that wiggly goo?"

It's a shame when people think they're being religious by telling God how he ought to do things.

sometimes I wonder if God withheld the experation date on that fruit from the tree of Knowledge...

Sometimes - sure. If I for instance ask a doctor if I need surgery and he says "nah", while in reality I do, I can and will blame him for my decision not to have surgery and any negative effects resulting from that decision.

Similarily, if the mother in question had asked her priest if she needed to seek medical attention for her child, and her priest told her "no, God will heal", one can and should blame the priest. He is an authority figure. His words carry weight. His advice is trusted. And as uncle Ben told us: great power comes with great responsibility.
In what medical specialty is her priest licensed?

You could ask me about how to roof a house, but given that I'm a teacher and not a roofer, any information you got would be pretty piss poor.

I don't ask firemen about weightlifting, or policemen about how to do my taxes, either.

The mentality that they needn't lift a finger to seek medical care for their daughter on the grounds that it's God's job is no different than sitting around the house on your lazy bum and letting the bills pile up on the grounds that the "Lord will provide."

God gave us each intelligence, common sense and reason and meant for us to USE them, not to cast them aside and play helpless. These parents were foolish and wrong. This isn't a matter of religion, it's a matter of a criminal and shocking lack of simple reasoning.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Katganistan/NS%20forum%20macros/katsseal.jpg?t=1243106091

There was always a thread on this last year. Regardless of whatever "this" we are talking about.
In some cases, the "this" may have been last week. ;)

In what medical specialty is her priest licensed?

You could ask me about how to roof a house, but given that I'm a teacher and not a roofer, any information you got would be pretty piss poor.

I don't ask firemen about weightlifting, or policemen about how to do my taxes, either.

Don't firemen have to be pretty strong? Maybe they would know about weightlifting. :p

Don't firemen have to be pretty strong? Maybe they would know about weightlifting. :p
I wouldn't bet slipped discs or torn tendons on it.

Hmm, my niece baptism is coming up...maybe I should start a Bible Fight.

super soakers and water balloons filled with holy water...

super soakers and water balloons filled with holy water...

You know how you make holy water?

super soakers and water balloons filled with holy water...

Hmm, I could make a Wiccan holy water....but it would have to sit outside for a month, and the Baptism is tomorrow. :(

You know how you make holy water?

Hmm, I could make a Wiccan holy water....but it would have to sit outside for a month, and the Baptism is tomorrow. :(

I'm thinking going to the church the day/night before...

I'm thinking going to the church the day/night before...

Nah. Take regular water and boil the Hell out of it. Presto, holy water.

Nah. Take regular water and boil the Hell out of it. Presto, holy water.

People have been shot for lesser jokes.

People have been shot for lesser jokes.

Aww...

*runs*

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/DrkHelmet/Forum%20Pictures/Legsllama.gif

Nah. Take regular water and boil the Hell out of it. Presto, holy water. :eek:

*readies Super Soaker*

yeah... you bettah run! :D

:eek:

*readies Super Soaker*

yeah... you bettah run! :D

What is this? Holy War? Oh shit.:eek:

Aww...

*runs*

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/DrkHelmet/Forum%20Pictures/Legsllama.gif

I mean it as a compliment really. it's my dream to one day craft such jokes that I might render people deaf from 3 miles away in the blast.

:eek:

*readies Super Soaker*

yeah... you bettah run! :D

*cocks his Bible Gun* I have the Catholic Bible loaded up! The thickest of all Bibles!

I mean it as a compliment really. it's my dream to one day craft such jokes that I might render people deaf from 3 miles away in the blast.

You are a monster!:eek:


:D

I mean it as a compliment really. it's my dream to one day craft such jokes that I might render people deaf from 3 miles away in the blast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gpjk_MaCGM

*cocks his Bible Gun* I have the Catholic Bible loaded up! The thickest of all Bibles!

I got my Qu'ran blaster ready and I'm not afraid to use it! *aims*

*draws Talmudic minigun*

I've got enough commentaries to take you all on! For G-d and Dakka!

*draws Talmudic minigun*

I've got enough commentaries to take you all on! For G-d and Dakka!

Oh shit! The Hassidim's unto us! RUN!!!!:eek2:

Oh shit! The Hassidim's unto us! RUN!!!!:eek2:

EAT RASHI!

*opens fire*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gpjk_MaCGM

I do loves me some Monty Python.

EAT RASHI!

*opens fire*

It's the OT of Doom! Jewthulu is here and there's no escape!


:D

It's the OT of Doom! Jewthulu is here and there's no escape!


:D

Yes, but if you cover yourself in pork products you won't be eaten at all.

This thread has been severely derailed.

For the safety of all posters aboard the thread, we're going to make an emergency stop if the derailing doesn't cease.

oops... er...
(tries to think of a point to get this thread back on topic)
well... all things considered... and taking into account the latest parent preventing her son from getting treatment...

where does religious freedom as well as the right to raise their child according to the parent's values end?

oops... er...
(tries to think of a point to get this thread back on topic)
well... all things considered... and taking into account the latest parent preventing her son from getting treatment...

where does religious freedom as well as the right to raise their child according to the parent's values end?

I believe the saying "Your rights end, where the other person's nose begins" applies here. When her "freedom of religion" infringed upon his rights to life, that is where her rights ended.

I believe the saying "Your rights end, where the other person's nose begins" applies here. When her "freedom of religion" infringed upon his rights to life, that is where her rights ended.

Word to this.

Word to this.

So you oppose infant circumcision ;) ?

So you oppose infant circumcision ;) ?

G-d's will overrides human rights.

G-d's will overrides human rights.

isn't that what she is arguing ??

G-d's will overrides human rights.

Ah - but that is an implied part of the question asked by JuNii. Let us make a list of some decisions, though perhaps this should be made into a new topic and a poll.

Assume your deity orders you to circumcise/pierce/tattoo your child. Should the parent be allowed to do so ?
Assume your deity orders you to refuse blood transfusions. Should the parent be allowed to refuse them for the child ? Same question for human donor organs. Then animal donor organs (e.g. pigs heart). Artifical organs (e.g. a pacemaker). Or certain types of medication.

Assume your deity orders you to refuse surgery - cutting open the body of a human is forbidden. Once again, can the parent say no when doctors want to do this with the child?

Assume your deity orders you to trust in him/her. If a child gets ill and dies, it is your deities will. If you pray enough, he will spare the child. If you do not trust, he/she will take the child.
Are you as a parent allowed to refuse medical treatment ?

Assume your deity forbids abortions. Your 12 year old daughter was raped by a family member, and became pregnant. She really, really, really does not want this child. May the parents forbid her to have an abortion ? Even if her life is at stake ?
Or, to reverse it, order her to have it if having a child outside marriage is a sin ?

Assume your deity forbids your child from being exposed to certain information. Like the theory of evolution or the existence of homosexuality. Should be parents be allowed to withold such knowledge from the children ?

Assume your deity demands that you sacrifice your firstborn for his greater glory. Yes/no ?

Assume your deity has elected your child to be the next child oracle of the village, meaning it will be taken away from you to live in the palace, being exposed to fumes that may cause hallucinations and being worshipped as a living deity for the words uttered during the period of being high - yet being thrown out of the palace when puberty kicks in and becoming an outcast. Must you fight this honour ?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=594694 . Religious freedom y/n ?


All of these are actual demands of various religions. Go ;)

oops... er...
(tries to think of a point to get this thread back on topic)
well... all things considered... and taking into account the latest parent preventing her son from getting treatment...

where does religious freedom as well as the right to raise their child according to the parent's values end?

Parents do not have rights to how they raise their children, they have responsibilities. That should answer the question pretty thoroughly.

Parents do not have rights to how they raise their children, they have responsibilities. That should answer the question pretty thoroughly.

Most parents think the opposite. Rights to mold their perfect little automatons however they see fit, but no responsibility.

Most parents think the opposite. Rights to mold their perfect little automatons however they see fit, but no responsibility.

and I think its disgusting.

and I think its disgusting.

But it's so much fun! Your own sociopsychological guinea pig! All for you, in your claws to mold the clay, crafting lifeforms as you see fit, in the name of Science! :hail:

That's why I'm planning to remain childless and unengaged, I have too much in the way of scruples to go happily mad scientist.

:p

But it's so much fun! Your own sociopsychological guinea pig! All for you, in your claws to mold the clay, crafting lifeforms as you see fit, in the name of Science! :hail:

That's why I'm planning to remain childless and unengaged, I have too much in the way of scruples to go happily mad scientist.

:p

You're like, like, Frankenstein!:eek:

You're like, like, Frankenstein!:eek:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/contingency_plan.png

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/parental_trolling.png

Or this one. Yours is pleasantly efficient, but I think this one has more finesse.

@Nanatsu: at Your service.

As I said, I'm not planning any kids, but if I have, I'll go for, like, four. That'll be plenty of test material.

:eek:

*readies Super Soaker*

yeah... you bettah run! :D
LOL. Let's just say that I have fond memories of this while playing Vampire: the Masquerade.

LOL. Let's just say that I have fond memories of this while playing Vampire: the Masquerade.

I miss playing that game. *misty-eyed remembers being a Malkie*

Upon re-reading some of the points brought up on the thread, I think I have to say that yes, it was truly lamentable the mother chose to prayer instead of seeking medical attention for her sick daughter. I don't know to what extent ignorance played a part in this decision of hers, my bet is a lot. But, much like Neo B posted, there a lot of mix feelings on the subject because, after all, this lady was just following the precepts of her faith, of which she and her family have a right to. But endangering the life of her daughter in such a way...

If God wanted us to be stupid, though, he wouldn't have given us reason and a big brain.

G-d's will overrides human rights.

Catch the old celestial dictator and try him at The Hague. Genocides, unlawful use of WMD's on civilians, torture... there's plenty.

Seriously... I wonder why people who believe in "God healing" refuse to believe that God can heal people through doctors. Oh no, they want God to make up mystical visual effects and that kind of stuff. Hmm... People who tell God HOW miracles are supposed to be done aren't very pious and god-fearing, methinks.

56.See why I, being thy LORD, have chosen thee as prophet?

There you are again... aren't you able to speak for yourself?

58.I can speak for My Self, of course, but I don't like to.

If God wanted us to be stupid, though, he wouldn't have given us reason and a big brain.

Well if you remember, Yahweh told Adam and Eve to stay away from the Tree of Knowledge. ;)

Just thought I'd point that out.

Well if you remember, Yahweh told Adam and Eve to stay away from the Tree of Knowledge. ;)

Just thought I'd point that out.

And then the bastard hid under a bush waiting for them to take it. He had it in for them from the beginning I tells ya, he was just waiting for an excuse to get rid of them.

If God wanted us to be stupid, though, he wouldn't have given us reason and a big brain.

Conterpoint: If God didn't want us to be stupid he'd have given us bigger brains and superior reasoning capacity. :p

Well if you remember, Yahweh told Adam and Eve to stay away from the Tree of Knowledge. ;)

Just thought I'd point that out.

The Gnostic retcon where Yahweh is evil/stupid and the Serpent is good/wise is made of win.

Well if you remember, Yahweh told Adam and Eve to stay away from the Tree of Knowledge. ;) Ignorance is bliss. You have knowledge about suffering as well, and responsibilities. Good thing?

personally for me, yes because I am knowledge-freak... I understand all negative things that come with it and embrace it as it is, but not to many people, trust me. ;)

Ignorance is bliss. You have knowledge about suffering as well, and responsibilities. Good thing?

personally for me, yes because I am knowledge-freak... I understand all negative things that come with it and embrace it as it is, but not to many people, trust me. ;)

Hey, if I was ignorance of the downside of knowledge, I wouldn't have my charming, witty, snarky, sarcastic personality. I wouldn't be the Wilgrove you all know and love.

Hey, if I was ignorance of the downside of knowledge, I wouldn't have my charming, witty, snarky, sarcastic personality. I wouldn't be the Wilgrove you all know and love.

This forum sorely lacks the ability to use strikethrough text.

In any case, the bolded is a lie and I could sue you for false advertising.

The Gnostic retcon where Yahweh is evil/stupid and the Serpent is good/wise is made of win.

In another forum, one of the Wiccans pointed out that Genesis actually support the ideas of Gods, and the idea that Adam and Eve weren't the first two human beings ever created.

This forum sorely lacks the ability to use strikethrough text.

In any case, the bolded is a lie and I could sue you for false advertising.

Are your parts dangly or atheistically pleasing?

Are your parts dangly or atheistically pleasing?

Atheistically pleasing? Pleasing in a way of there being no God?

Well if you remember, Yahweh told Adam and Eve to stay away from the Tree of Knowledge. ;)

Just thought I'd point that out.
Oh please. Reverse psychology. My grandfather got me to eat baby octopus in spaghetti sauce at the tender age of seven by telling me it was spiders and I wasn't old enough to have it. ;)

Oh please. Reverse psychology. My grandfather got me to eat baby octopus in spaghetti sauce at the tender age of seven by telling me it was spiders and I wasn't old enough to have it.

and Yahweh cast them out of the Garden of Eden for gaining knowledge via the fruit on the forbidden Tree of Knowledge, and gave women the pain of birth.

and Yahweh cast them out of the Garden of Eden for gaining knowledge via the fruit on the forbidden Tree of Knowledge, and gave women the pain of birth.Maybe. Or maybe women didn't "know" about it before? :tongue:

Are your parts dangly or atheistically pleasing?

Is that meant to be an inclusive or an exclusive or?

Interesting questions.

Assume your deity orders you to circumcise/pierce/tattoo your child. Should the parent be allowed to do so ?
No. The child has the right to the integrity of his own body. When he'll be an adult, he'll chose himself.


Assume your deity orders you to refuse blood transfusions. Should the parent be allowed to refuse them for the child ? Same question for human donor organs. Then animal donor organs (e.g. pigs heart). Artifical organs (e.g. a pacemaker). Or certain types of medication.

No. Parents aren't the competent medical doctors on the matter (even if they ARE doctors: they're too involved to judge objectively). The child has right to proper healthcare, and it's proper what's the competent medical doctor says.


Assume your deity orders you to refuse surgery - cutting open the body of a human is forbidden. Once again, can the parent say no when doctors want to do this with the child?

No. See above.


Assume your deity orders you to trust in him/her. If a child gets ill and dies, it is your deities will. If you pray enough, he will spare the child. If you do not trust, he/she will take the child.
Are you as a parent allowed to refuse medical treatment ?

No. See above.
(Another method would be: ok, fine, have it your way. But if the child dies, you'll be tried for homicide, as you, BY YOUR OWN STANDARDS, refused to believe and pray enough to save your own child. )


Assume your deity forbids abortions. Your 12 year old daughter was raped by a family member, and became pregnant. She really, really, really does not want this child. May the parents forbid her to have an abortion ? Even if her life is at stake ?
Or, to reverse it, order her to have it if having a child outside marriage is a sin ?

1.NO. The child has the right to her own physical and psychological well-being: this includes not becoming pregnant when still underage.
2.The category of "sin" is immaterial when law and rights are concerned.


Assume your deity forbids your child from being exposed to certain information. Like the theory of evolution or the existence of homosexuality. Should be parents be allowed to withold such knowledge from the children ?

No. The child has right to education. This means competent teachers decide: not religious whackos who just happen to have provided the genoma.


Assume your deity demands that you sacrifice your firstborn for his greater glory. Yes/no ?

No. The child has right to life. Homicide is a felony. Law is above religion.


Assume your deity has elected your child to be the next child oracle of the village, meaning it will be taken away from you to live in the palace, being exposed to fumes that may cause hallucinations and being worshipped as a living deity for the words uttered during the period of being high - yet being thrown out of the palace when puberty kicks in and becoming an outcast. Must you fight this honour ?

Hell yes, you must fight against that. You have to protect the child's right to freedom, education, physical and psychological well-being; which is ABOVE any cultural tradition.

and Yahweh cast them out of the Garden of Eden for gaining knowledge via the fruit on the forbidden Tree of Knowledge, and gave women the pain of birth.
HE stacked the deck to teach us to use our brains (free will) rather than just follow like sheep. If HE's omnipotent, then giving us the capacity to disobey and placing temptation in our way -- well, pretty much a foregone conclusion.

Ignorance is bliss.
If this was true the world would be a place of joy and sunshine and lollipops.
This forum sorely lacks the ability to use strikethrough text.

OMG yes.

Maybe. Or maybe women didn't "know" about it before? :tongue:

What are you implying, Skama? <_<


:tongue:

I'm a bit torn on this one.

On the one hand I don't want to see incidents like this, which are rare, be the trigger for more Government intrusion in people's private and religious lives.

On the other hand I *DO* think these parents are to blame on the grounds that they didn't approach their religion logically. The mentality that they needn't lift a finger to seek medical care for their daughter on the grounds that it's God's job is no different than sitting around the house on your lazy bum and letting the bills pile up on the grounds that the "Lord will provide."

God gave us each intelligence, common sense and reason and meant for us to USE them, not to cast them aside and play helpless. These parents were foolish and wrong. This isn't a matter of religion, it's a matter of a criminal and shocking lack of simple reasoning.
I gotta disagree with you on this.

In fact, I think the problem here is that these parents were 100% logical in how they viewed their religion.

The Bible clearly and repeatedly talks about God healing people miraculously. The Bible provides absolutely no evidence that God stopped being able to perform such healings, and no indication that God suddenly decided he'd never perform them. The God of the Bible is supposedly all powerful and also infinitely loving of humanity. It's actually quite illogical for anybody to profess belief in the truth of the Bible while simultaneously doubting that God could or would heal people in this manner. (Sure, most religious folks will try the classic lie about how healing sick children would violate free will or whatever, but we don't need to waste time on that.)

That's the real trouble, I think. These parents were behaving in the manner that IS consistent with Christian doctrine. This is the logical endpoint to those beliefs.

However, the overwhelming majority of Christians don't behave in this logical manner. Instead, they have selective memory about the Bible, they pick and choose which bits they want to believe are real, and they profess belief in an "all powerful" and "loving" God who is also either unwilling or unable to heal sick children. Their "all powerful" and "loving" God isn't even willing to help out with the measles. Sorry, but that is completely and totally devoid of logic.

I think that's why stories like this make a lot of religious people uncomfortable; because it is proof that the few people who really do follow religious beliefs to their LOGICAL conclusions are very clearly lunatics, and, hence, the logical endpoint of these religious beliefs is a place that no sane person wants to go.

I gotta disagree with you on this.

In fact, I think the problem here is that these parents were 100% logical in how they viewed their religion.

The Bible clearly and repeatedly talks about God healing people miraculously. The Bible provides absolutely no evidence that God stopped being able to perform such healings, and no indication that God suddenly decided he'd never perform them. The God of the Bible is supposedly all powerful and also infinitely loving of humanity. It's actually quite illogical for anybody to profess belief in the truth of the Bible while simultaneously doubting that God could or would heal people in this manner. (Sure, most religious folks will try the classic lie about how healing sick children would violate free will or whatever, but we don't need to waste time on that.)

That's the real trouble, I think. These parents were behaving in the manner that IS consistent with Christian doctrine. This is the logical endpoint to those beliefs.

However, the overwhelming majority of Christians don't behave in this logical manner. Instead, they have selective memory about the Bible, they pick and choose which bits they want to believe are real, and they profess belief in an "all powerful" and "loving" God who is also either unwilling or unable to heal sick children. Their "all powerful" and "loving" God isn't even willing to help out with the measles. Sorry, but that is completely and totally devoid of logic.

I think that's why stories like this make a lot of religious people uncomfortable; because it is proof that the few people who really do follow religious beliefs to their LOGICAL conclusions are very clearly lunatics, and, hence, the logical endpoint of these religious beliefs is a place that no sane person wants to go. I don't agree with your No True Christian implication, or that religious folks = people who don't use doctors.
You're missing or ignoring the many biblical quotations regarding medicine and physicians that I linked to earlier. And I disagree that it's logical: most Christians understand the difference between getting medical advice from a doctor, and spiritual advice from a clergyman. It's the immature ones that make blanket assumptions that they need merely sit back and let Someone Else take care of it, rather than seek help.

After reading all of these articles and seeing how these people believe god will take care of just about anything, I think I'm going to stop eating, drinking water, bathing, doing laundry, working, and paying my bills.

After all, god will take care of it as long as I pray. Right?

What are you implying, Skama? <_<


:tongue:Well it's pretty obvious that people want knowledge. But with it comes side effects and responsibilities. ;)

After reading all of these articles and seeing how these people believe god will take care of just about anything, I think I'm going to stop eating, drinking water, bathing, doing laundry, working, and paying my bills.

After all, god will take care of it as long as I pray. Right?

Just don't stop masturbating. God won't help you with that.

I don't agree with your No True Christian implication, or that religious folks = people who don't use doctors.

I'm glad you don't agree with that, because that's not what I said.

What I said is that the God that Christians CLAIM to believe in is not consistent with their behavior of seeking doctors' help.

I never said that no true Christian (or no true religious person) would use doctors. For one thing, Christianity =/= religion. For another thing, I don't believe there's any such thing as a "true Christian," because I've never in my life met a single person who believes in every part of Christianity. Based on my lifetime of experiences and all the lifetimes of experiences that I've read about and talked about and heard about from others, every Christian picks and chooses what parts of Christianity they wish to believe in.


You're missing or ignoring the many biblical quotations regarding medicine and physicians that I linked to earlier. And I disagree that it's logical: most Christians understand the difference between getting medical advice from a doctor, and spiritual advice from a clergyman.

Again, this isn't what I'm talking about.

I know the Bible says nice things about doctors in places; it says nice things and nasty things about everything. Like, seriously, there's positive passages about goats and there's passages that imply that goats = satan. You can find ANYTHING in the Bible.

That's not my point.

My point is that the Christian GOD, as an all-powerful being who also supposedly loves humanity so very very much, is itself not consistent with using doctors. The Bible makes it expressly clear that God can and does heal people without any intervention from doctors, so it is totally and completely 100% logical for a person who believes in those parts of the Bible to conclude that God COULD heal their sick child, and it is also completely and totally logical for them to believe that their loving God WOULD heal their sick child.

It is, likewise, utterly illogical for anybody who believes in this loving and all-powerful God to insist that God is either incapable or disinclined to heal sick children, particularly if they believe the Bible is in any way the Word of their God. The Bible SPECIFICALLY describes God doing exactly that. Sure, they'll engage in mental gymnastics to try to explain why God in the Bible would part the seas and heal the sick but nowadays he can't because, um, something about free will, but all of that is just rubbish to try to cover over the fact that they are being very illogical.


It's the immature ones that make blanket assumptions that they need merely sit back and let Someone Else take care of it, rather than seek help.
I absolutely agree that it is immature to do what you're talking about. But that is precisely what the Bible instructs people to be. That is exactly what the Bible tells believers to be. The Bible teaches that childlike innocence and childlike faith are pure and good. The Bible has countless stories of such immaturity being richly rewarded, while those who presume to question are chastised or punished. Hell, some of the most classic tales of the Bible revolve around this; "Doubting Thomas," anybody?

The fact that some Christians (presumably like yourself) choose not to believe in those parts of the Bible, or choose to believe that they aren't as important as other parts that you like better, is fine with me. I think those parts of the Bible are stupid, too. But it's kinda silly for anybody to try to claim that it is more logical to pick one section of the Bible to believe in as opposed to another, based purely on what you think SHOULD be true. Neither is any more or less logical than the other.

Well it's pretty obvious that people want knowledge. But with it comes side effects and responsibilities. ;)

True enough. Although this sounds like a speech from Spiderman.:D

The fact that some Christians (presumably like yourself) choose not to believe in those parts of the Bible, or choose to believe that they aren't as important as other parts that you like better, is fine with me. I think those parts of the Bible are stupid, too. But it's kinda silly for anybody to try to claim that it is more logical to pick one section of the Bible to believe in as opposed to another, based purely on what you think SHOULD be true. Neither is any more or less logical than the other.
You seem to think the Bible is an instruction manual. It's not; it's a bunch of parables and allegories that are meant to make people think about ways to live their lives.

Let's make an analogy. If scientists accepted what was "truth" and and never disagreed with parts what was accepted as law, we'd none of us enjoy the millions of discoveries that have extended and made "easier" our lives. That's how people view the Bible -- lots of good ideas, but not all of it works anymore. No one cares about mixing materials in clothes -- otherwise we wouldn't have wash-and-wear clothes.

It's a little frustrating to keep hearing about how you're supposed to view the Bible and take it as 100% truth as if we're all brainwashed when even most of the clergy don't teach and act what you seem to think they do.

The folks who seem to believe with childlike innocence generally come to our attention because they do things the rest of us recognize as crazy.

You seem to think the Bible is an instruction manual. It's not; it's a bunch of parables and allegories that are meant to make people think about ways to live their lives.

Well, it is, in that sense it is intended to instruct people to think about ways to live their lives. It's a bit more than a mere collection of tales, with regards to most Christian organizations. These tales - parables - are meant to convey a message, and thus 'instruct.'

Granted, it's not meant as an instruction manual in the sense of having unequivocal and explicit commands.

Just don't stop masturbating. God won't help you with that.

In fact, I here he kills kittens if you do.:D

Granted, it's not meant as an instruction manual in the sense of having unequivocal and explicit commands.
And yet it is being portrayed as if it is.

And yet it is being portrayed as if it is.

Hmm, by some people, no doubt. Some people within religions too, in fact, will treat their holy books as if they are 100% unequivocal instruction manuals and that anything else is wrong/evil/heretical. Still, they can just go ahead and be wrong and I'm confident that most people, whatever their religion, are aware of that.