NationStates Jolt Archive

This (http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/M%c3%a9tro+user+busted+refusing+hold+handrail/1611434/story.html) story caught my eye today:

Laval police said yesterday they issued three separate warnings to Bela Kosoian that she was obliged to hold onto an escalator handrail in a métro station before they handcuffed her briefly and issued two tickets totalling $420 against her.

The initial ticket was for having "disobeyed a directive or pictogram." It is for $75, plus a $25 administration fee.

The second ticket is for obstructing an inspector in the exercise of his duties. That one could cost Kosoian $250, plus $60 administration, plus a $10 contribution.

She refused to touch the handrail, saying it was filthy, and they ticketed her? To me it seems obvious they got pissed off that someone didn't do as they commanded.

So what do you think? Legally or opinion-wise, how obliged are you to obey the police?

The pigs are scum.

The pigs are scum.

Or...you could just make a pointless statement. *sigh*

The pigs are scum.

They are not. There is just a small percentage that make all the others look bad. Sorta like politicians...well that might be a bad example.

This case seems extreme to me. However, from the article, she also refused to provide identification. You really shouldn't do that. It tends to make police nervous.

There are certain instances where obeying the police is very very important. When there are major security issues (Secret Service tells you stay outside of X perimeter), there's an emergency (now exit the building in an orderly fashion, no pushing, before the whole place blows up), protecting a crime scene (respecting the perimeter, as before), or some other out-of-the-ordinary circumstance.

In all cases, absent some serious reason not to, I would obey police directives.

However, I also wouldn't ticket someone for not holding a handrail.

Given that she was using a public service, she's actually rather obliged to hold the handrail, I'd daresay. The rules, in this case, seem to serve a dual purpose. The obvious one being the public safety rule, but less obvious is that they are to protect the subway service from a lawsuit, should an accident occur on the escalator.

So what do you think? Legally or opinion-wise, how obliged are you to obey the police?

That depends on when you want to make your case:

If you want to make it to the police, you are better off obeying and explaining your reasons for not wanting to in a calm and rational way after the fact. If you'd rather make it to the judge, then go ahead and disobey. It doesn't make your reasons any less correct or legitimate, but it's not the police's job to sort justified defiance from unjustified defiance.

This case seems extreme to me. However, from the article, she also refused to provide identification. You really shouldn't do that. It tends to make police nervous.

Not all of us HAVE ID though. Just saying.

Or...you could just make a pointless statement. *sigh*

Meh, about as much input as I could muster.

Given that she was using a public service, she's actually rather obliged to hold the handrail, I'd daresay. The rules, in this case, seem to serve a dual purpose. The obvious one being the public safety rule, but less obvious is that they are to protect the subway service from a lawsuit, should an accident occur on the escalator.

In which case, not holding the handrail would be contributory negligence on her part anyway.

I'm not quite sure how obliged I am to obey the police legally. I'll google it some day.

Opinion-wise. Hmmm. Well I was going to say I'd be ok with having to obey them if they were giving orders in the interest of public safety(anecdotal example: There was a huge line into the nightclub I was in one time. Apparently people started pushing and stuff got a bit out of hand. The gardaí were called and dispersed people outside the club and wouldn't let people inside leave by the front exit.), but then that's probably the idea behind these fines, and they seem pretty stupid.

*ponders harder*

Not all of us HAVE ID though. Just saying.

That is true. I don't know how it is in Canada, but in the US the majority of the population carries I.D. 24/7.

I would have assumed that directions/pictograms like "keep to the left" "or use the handrail" on an escalator were guidance rather than legal requirements. They do seem to have been rather out to get this person for whatever they could, even if it was of the
"wearing a loud shirt during the hours of daylight in a built up area" variety.

The pigs are scum.

No, pigs are Sus. I can see how you might get the latin confused, given that the genus name Sus is composed of letters from the word scum, but they're not the same thing. And, given that you're from those damp islands, I'd assume you're referring to Sus scrofa domestica.

That is true. I don't know how it is in France, but in the US the majority of the population carries I.D. 24/7.

...This is Montreal, which is in Canada. To the north of you.

In which case, not holding the handrail would be contributory negligence on her part anyway.

Conversely, the argument could be made because of the lack of enforcement of the rule, the rule was, in effect, nonexistent.

It's not enough to win a case, but it is enough to drag the subway service into a court fight it doesn't need.

If I knew in advance that at some point in the day the law would require me to hold onto a dirty handrail, I would buy gloves and claim them on my taxes.
:tongue:

...This is Montreal, which is in Canada. To the north of you.

I could have sworn I read France in that article somewhere.

Ok, I'll fix it. I'm just hallucinating again.

I would have assumed that directions/pictograms like "keep to the left" "or use the handrail" on an escalator were guidance rather than legal requirements. They do seem to have been rather out to get this person for whatever they could, even if it was of the
"wearing a loud shirt during the hours of daylight in a built up area" variety.
Another possibility: a fall constitutes a danger to those below her on the escalator.

Anyone afraid of germs in public would be well advised to invest in a small tube of hand sanitizer, or wear gloves when on public transport.

I could have sworn I read France in that article somewhere.

Ok, I'll fix it. I'm just hallucinating again.

She is a citizen of France.

I could have sworn I read France in that article somewhere.

Ok, I'll fix it. I'm just hallucinating again.

The woman in question is a French citizen living in Canada since '03.

Another possibility: a fall constitutes a danger to those below her on the escalator.

Anyone afraid of germs in public would be well advised to invest in a small tube of hand sanitizer, or wear gloves when on public transport.

It's more likely they were douchebags about it, and she got her back up and was a douchebag in return.

Conversely, the argument could be made because of the lack of enforcement of the rule, the rule was, in effect, nonexistent.

It's not enough to win a case, but it is enough to drag the subway service into a court fight it doesn't need.

Selective enforcement is a major issue. I agree with Andaluciae here. The cops seemed to be on a power trip in which case I wouldn't adhere to what they were asking if I thought it was chickeness. I can also lawyer up and make this cop look like a total clown.

Now typically I would follow directives as you put it. Ninety-nine percent of the time it is probably for something legitimate.

The woman in question is a French citizen living in Canada since '03.
She is a citizen of France.

Got it. I read the article wrong. OK? I'm SORRY.

In any case, France or Canada, my opinion remains the same.

This is what you get for living in a Socialist Nanny State.

This is what you get for living in a Socialist Nanny State.

The last scandal involving the police in the US was that subway cop who killed a guy.......

This is what you get for living in a Socialist Nanny State.

As the old saying goes..... "Don't wish to hard because it may come true."

The last scandal involving the police in the US was that subway cop who killed a guy.......

That would have taken place in the Bay Area. A hotbed of Socialism. Coincidence?

The last scandal involving the police in the US was that subway cop who killed a guy.......

And that's for living a stupid state - New York.

And that's for living a stupid state - New York.

Ahhh New York too?

Ahhh New York too?

New York, where the state motto is "Hey, at least we're not as bad as Florida."

It's more likely they were douchebags about it, and she got her back up and was a douchebag in return.
Well, that too.

And that's for living a stupid state - New York.

Or, for living in a stupid country- The US?

Or, for living in a stupid country- The US?

The US isn't all stupid. We do lots of really good things.

It's just none of it ever comes out of Florida or New York.

New York, where the state motto is "Hey, at least we're not as bad as Florida."
Nah, our motto is, "Hey, we got more old people -- sending them your way, God's Waiting Room."

Or, for living in a stupid country- The US?

You're turning into a really lousy troll, RoI. turning absolutely everything into an inflammatory comment gets boring.

Nah, our motto is, "Hey, we got more old people -- sending them your way into God's Waiting Room."

Incidentally, "God's Waiting Room" is Florida's state designation in 31% of school history books.

So what do you think? Legally or opinion-wise, how obliged are you to obey the police?

I think the police were bored. Obviously there weren't any English language signs around, ;) so they needed something to do.

As for providing identification, last I checked, Canada was not Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany where you had to present your papers upon demand by the state police. Failure to hold onto the railing is the least of their concerns I say. If she had not paid her fare or committed a real criminal offence - you know, like speak English in Quebec :tongue: - then I seriously have to wonder what's wrong with the police who slapped cuffs on her.

I've seen plenty of signs in the TTC (Toronto's transit system) informing people to hold onto the rail, but I've never seen a TTC constable stop someone for not doing so. Then again, I gather they primarily concern themselves with legitimate concerns and not some phantom concern over an adult female's choice as to whether or not she wants to put her hand on the rail.

Police on a power trip. Plain and simple. Being handcuffed for not holding onto a handrail? Holy hell what is this world coming to?

If an officer orders me to do something I do it. Providing they are giving me a lawful order. I don't want to leave myself open to some moron here saying, "Oh yeah, what if they ordered you to kill a guy." I've been around NSG too long not to realize this shit can and does happen. Other than that, I follow orders.

It's more likely they were douchebags about it, and she got her back up and was a douchebag in return.

Never try to out douchebag the police. They are just better at it by nature.

If an officer orders me to do something I do it. Providing they are giving me a lawful order. I don't want to leave myself open to some moron here saying, "Oh yeah, what if they ordered you to kill a guy." I've been around NSG too long not to realize this shit can and does happen. Other than that, I follow orders.

You're learning. :p

You're learning. :p

Thank you prime suspect.

I tend to do what cops tell me. Why? Because as much as I can bitch, piss, moan, and be a general jackass, they have a tazer, gun, and handcuffs. They aren't there to ask why I didn't do what they said...they are there to tell me what to do and, if I don't without an immediatly appearent reason, to enforce their command.

I'd rather not deal with the court date.

The US isn't all stupid. We do lots of really good things.

It's just none of it ever comes out of Florida or New York.

I dunno, The Daily Show and The Colbert Report are pretty great.

Anyway, on topic: I would typically do what the police said if it was not too unreasonable because it's just less hassle.

How obliged am I to follow police directions? It depends. If they tell me to go left at the stop sign, and there's a house there, then OBVIOUSLY I'm not going to be following police directions. If they tell me to go past a certain road, and there's a body of water there, then I'm not going to listen to them.








:D

the ACLU said i should ask the police officer if he is making a request or an order.

Given that she was using a public service, she's actually rather obliged to hold the handrail, I'd daresay. The rules, in this case, seem to serve a dual purpose. The obvious one being the public safety rule, but less obvious is that they are to protect the subway service from a lawsuit, should an accident occur on the escalator.

Rule, suggestion or law? Sound like these coppers just didn't liek being disobeyed, that happens a lot with with the fuzz.

Never try to out douchebag the police. They are just better at it by nature.
Also they have handcuffs and batons, and maybe tazers or pepper spray or mace or guns. And its probably a requirement that they be able to kick the average criminal's ass without the above.
the ACLU said i should ask the police officer if he is making a request or an order.

That's probably wise.

Rule, suggestion or law? Sound like these coppers just didn't liek being disobeyed, that happens a lot with with the fuzz.

This seems to be the common factor whenever we hear an outrageous story when police cross the line. It reminds me of the incident in Baltimore (you can YouTube this) where an officer manhandled a teenage boy and took his skateboard away. Should the kids have been skateboarding where they were? no, but they weren't resisting or disobeying either. Turns out this cop had anger management problems. Apparently his rage was triggered by a smartass comment one of the boys made as they were leaving.

There is a growing problem in which the power and authority police are given starts to go to their heads and they don't like being challenged.

I don't know how much of a legal obligation you have, but I always follow the instructions of police or security personnel.

Or...you could just make a pointless statement. *sigh*
That usually works just fine, yes.

I know special services are something different to regular police but I am a nightmare for them. Since in my job I have to deal with escorts at all times, I even have one assigned to myself, I get tired of their presence. I'm supposed to obey them at all times... but I don't. Mainly that's because I get tired of having them around. I am just slightly apathetic.

Now, with regular police, I always follow directions.

This (http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/M%c3%a9tro+user+busted+refusing+hold+handrail/1611434/story.html) story caught my eye today:



She refused to touch the handrail, saying it was filthy, and they ticketed her? To me it seems obvious they got pissed off that someone didn't do as they commanded.

So what do you think? Legally or opinion-wise, how obliged are you to obey the police?
Damned if I'm going shopping in a Montreal mall... But one wonders what the rest of the story is?

That's probably wise.

Police like to play games. A friend got public intox when a police officer requested she step outside the bar. If she had Asked she could have avoided stepping out into public.

Not all of us HAVE ID though. Just saying. if you don't have an ID. then be polite. "Sorry I don't have ID on me."

She refused to touch the handrail, saying it was filthy, and they ticketed her? to be fair, not many reconize some phobias to be serious conditions.

So what do you think? for this case? fight it in court. if she has a major phobia about germs and filth, then she might win.
Legally or opinion-wise, how obliged are you to obey the police? I always obey a resonable request from a uniformed officer. I'm always polite and if I'm in a bad mood, I will apologize in advance for any untoward thing I may say.

I will ask questions, again, politely. and most times I do get an answer. 99.99% of officers I talk to in this manner, are respectful and do their best to be understanding in return.

Civilians are almost always obligated to obey the Police. If nobody obeyed authority then we would have anarchy and that is never a good thing.

I tend to do what cops tell me. Why? Because as much as I can bitch, piss, moan, and be a general jackass, they have a tazer, gun, and handcuffs. They aren't there to ask why I didn't do what they said...they are there to tell me what to do and, if I don't without an immediatly appearent reason, to enforce their command.

Generally this. There's always a bit of force majeure involved in dealing with the police. You can have all the 'moral victory' you like, but if it comes with a cracked skull, have you really come out ahead?

Civilians are almost always obligated to obey the Police. If nobody obeyed authority then we would have anarchy and that is never a good thing.

Well I disagree, eventualy anarchy is the way that we shall go, and that is a good thing.:D

Civilians are almost always obligated to obey the Police. If nobody obeyed authority then we would have anarchy and that is never a good thing.

don't knock anarchy until you give it a chance to set in.

Well I disagree, eventualy anarchy is the way that we shall go, and that is a good thing.:D

Admit it, all this talk of 'anarchy' is just a smoke-screen. You just want to be the Ayatollah of Rock-and-Rollah and lead a biker gang, like in The Road Warrior.

Admit it, all this talk of 'anarchy' is just a smoke-screen. You just want to be the Ayatollah of Rock-and-Rollah and lead a biker gang, like in The Road Warrior.

Hey thats my dream!!!!
and it is Lord Humungus.

Admit it, all this talk of 'anarchy' is just a smoke-screen. You just want to be the Ayatollah of Rock-and-Rollah and lead a biker gang, like in The Road Warrior.

Well I do have soft spot for rock-n-roll, and one day I shall have a bike(when the kids up and leave), and it is true that I used to be an officer in a motorbike club. :D