NationStates Jolt Archive

Report due today on the abuse of children by the Catholic church in Ireland.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8058224.stm
This is part of a continuing pattern of abuse in many countries, and of cover ups by the Church.

Is it about time that we said the Catholic Church is not fit to be working with children?

More a case of the continual finding out of these abuses, after all this report is talking about what happened in a 60 year period up to the 1980's.

Now if they stopped other organisation would have to move in, and there would still be the possibility of abuse with these organisation even secular ones. This assumption that only the Catholic church abuses children is to but it bluntly stupid.

More a case of the continual finding out of these abuses, after all this report is talking about what happened in a 60 year period up to the 1980's.

Now if they stopped other organisation would have to move in, and there would still be the possibility of abuse with these organisation even secular ones. This assumption that only the Catholic church abuses children is to but it bluntly stupid.

Put it this way : Any other kind of organisation that would have allowed abuse to go on on this scale, and actively covered up and protected the perpetrators while exposing the victims, would be shut down by any civilised government.

And there has been precedent for that.

More a case of the continual finding out of these abuses, after all this report is talking about what happened in a 60 year period up to the 1980's.

Now if they stopped other organisation would have to move in, and there would still be the possibility of abuse with these organisation even secular ones. This assumption that only the Catholic church abuses children is to but it bluntly stupid.

Other organisations, including statutory ones, do work with children. It is hard to think of one, other than the Catholic Church, where abuse was so endemic.

They should be stopped from working with children, or the priests should be allowed to marry, so they don't take out that pent-up sexual frustration on vulnerable children.

They should be stopped from working with children, or the priests should be allowed to marry, so they don't take out that pent-up sexual frustration on vulnerable children.

Another bogus assumption that only unmarried people abuse children.

Now that may be some truth in it but then regardless of that I think priests should be allowed to marry but that is another argument.

Other organisations, including statutory ones, do work with children. It is hard to think of one, other than the Catholic Church, where abuse was so endemic.

Yes they do and there probably have in fact have been cases where there was abuse especially in the 60's that are only being found out now.

Put it this way : Any other kind of organisation that would have allowed abuse to go on on this scale, and actively covered up and protected the perpetrators while exposing the victims, would be shut down by any civilised government.

And there has been precedent for that.

I'll give that to you but not all would be shut down after all many countries still have Boy scouts still active within their borders.

Naaaa they do a lot of good work with kids, why stop that? The Catholic church should shop any priests found to abuse children to the police.

I'll give that to you but not all would be shut down after all many countries still have Boy scouts still active within their borders.

From what I remember working with Youth Groups in Germany, the Scouts is a term for some 3 or 4 dozen different organisations, some linked closely with the church, some entirely secular, some with very worrying right-wing leanings, others run by the local councils.
Mind you, this might well be very different elsewhere, though.

Naaaa they do a lot of good work with kids, why stop that? The Catholic church should shop any priests found to abuse children to the police.

I think I'll go with that one.
And given the church's recent history in its dealings with children, I would suggest to keep the work going, but to introduce some "security measures", like always having two adults present when with groups of children, and possibly more or less regular checks by social services and police.

From what I remember working with Youth Groups in Germany, the Scouts is a term for some 3 or 4 dozen different organisations, some linked closely with the church, some entirely secular, some with very worrying right-wing leanings, others run by the local councils.
Mind you, this might well be very different elsewhere, though.

Oh really? Interesting, in Australia there is just the one Boy Scout organisation pretty much secular, not associated with any church.

Naaaa they do a lot of good work with kids, why stop that? The Catholic church should shop any priests found to abuse children to the police.

^This

I think I'll go with that one.
And given the church's recent history in its dealings with children, I would suggest to keep the work going, but to introduce some "security measures", like always having two adults present when with groups of children, and possibly more or less regular checks by social services and police.

Also most of this, they should have two or more adults not only to protect their children but also to ensure they are protected from any allegations.

More a case of the continual finding out of these abuses, after all this report is talking about what happened in a 60 year period up to the 1980's.

Now if they stopped other organisation would have to move in, and there would still be the possibility of abuse with these organisation even secular ones. This assumption that only the Catholic church abuses children is to but it bluntly stupid.

Nobody is suggesting that the Catholic Church is the only organisation that abuses children. That's your own strawman.

I wonder if similar things have gone on in other countries, and, if so, the Vatican should really be setting some stricter rules. And the governments of those countries.

I wonder if similar things have gone on in other countries, and, if so, the Vatican should really be setting some stricter rules. And the governments of those countries.

There have been a couple of scandals in recent years in Germany, and I've heard of a few in the US as well.

The problem isn't that priests in the Catholic Church are any more likely to molest children than any other large groups of professionals that work with children. What makes the Catholic Church untrustworthy is their policies regarding complaints and incidents. Not only do they refuse to report such incidents to the authorities, but they have been known to engage in actively protecting their members from complaints and prosecution by moving them from parish to parish. It's this attitude that makes them untrustworthy.

Is it about time that we said the Catholic Church is not fit to be working with children?

No.

The problem isn't that priests in the Catholic Church are any more likely to molest children than any other large groups of professionals that work with children. What makes the Catholic Church untrustworthy is their policies regarding complaints and incidents. Not only do they refuse to report such incidents to the authorities, but they have been known to engage in actively protecting their members from complaints and prosecution by moving them from parish to parish. It's this attitude that makes them untrustworthy.

The report is out now, and as you point out they knew abuse was endemic but did nothing but try to shield the offenders
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8059826.stm

The problem isn't that priests in the Catholic Church are any more likely to molest children than any other large groups of professionals that work with children. What makes the Catholic Church untrustworthy is their policies regarding complaints and incidents. Not only do they refuse to report such incidents to the authorities, but they have been known to engage in actively protecting their members from complaints and prosecution by moving them from parish to parish. It's this attitude that makes them untrustworthy.

The best way to clamp down on the problem would be to convince the Church officials that the children being molested are in fact consenting adult women. That'll get 'em to smite the offending priest in the blink of an eye.

The best way to clamp down on the problem would be to convince the Church officials that the children being molested are in fact consenting adult women. That'll get 'em to smite the offending priest in the blink of an eye.

:tongue:

The best way to clamp down on the problem would be to convince the Church officials that the children being molested are in fact consenting adult women. That'll get 'em to smite the offending priest in the blink of an eye.

That could work! :tongue:

No, I have no problem with the Catholic Church working with children. I have a problem with people who abuse kids working with children. When those two sets overlap, then sure, obviously the Catholics who abuse kids should be kept away from kids just as much as the Protestants or Jews or Hindus or atheists who abuse kids. Of whom, incidentally, I am sure there are far more examples than Church authorities who do so.

The problem with the Catholic Church is NOT "priests are more likely to molest children than your average guy." The priest in your local parish is more than likely a decent guy who would never hurt your kids. The problem is that several authorities made it a practice to cover it up when they did - and that is much less an issue of "the Catholic Church supports hurting children" and much more an issue of "the Catholic Church, like most major organizations, contains some people who are assholes and who would rather protect their careers than protect those most in need of protection."

Hey - according to the article they managed not to rape about 94% of the children entrusted to them. Halleluja !

Hey - according to the article they managed not to rape about 94% of the children entrusted to them. Halleluja !

Those were the ugly ones.

Those were the ugly ones.

Oh dear. More trauma. "Why was I not good enough to be abused" ...

Still, another way to look at it is that in a class of 20, at least 1 of the kids was being abused by the teacher. Mentally, physically or sexually.
Scary.

I can't see why any religious people should be allowed to work with children, catholic or not.

i can't see why any religious people should be allowed to work with children, catholic or not.

wtf?

wtf?

Hmm?

Hmm?

What The Fuck?

What The Fuck?

Indeed, I was just wondering if your comment actually had any point at all...

Indeed, I was just wondering if your comment actually had any point at all...

I was wondering what the fuck you were chatting about...

I can't see why any religious people should be allowed to work with children, catholic or not.

Why wouldn't they?

I was wondering what the fuck you were chatting about...

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory really; in my opinion those who hold religious beliefs shouldn't be allowed to work with kids. I'll elaborate; especially if they're working in education & if they are they should at least maintain religious neutrality, although of course preferably just not have 'em.

Clear enough?

Why wouldn't they?

IMO, because they can influence the kiddos with their at best stupid & illogical and at worst actively damaging beliefs.

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory really; in my opinion those who hold religious beliefs shouldn't be allowed to work with kids. I'll elaborate; especially if they're working in education & if they are they should at least maintain religious neutrality, although of course preferably just not have 'em.

Nah. To paraphrase Pratchett: humans need fantasy to be human. To be where the fallen angel meets the rising ape.

Religious folks should just learn that kids are individuals that will grow to have their own life, ideas, beliefs and opinions instead of playthings. So no molesting, and no snipping off of certain bits of anatomy ;)

IMO, because they can influence the kiddos with their at best stupid & illogical and at worst actively damaging beliefs.

So kids should only hear government sanctioned opinions and viewpoints on life? So which great fascist leader influenced your idea of a nationwide thought police regime, was it Mussolini?

IMO, because they can influence the kiddos with their at best stupid & illogical and at worst actively damaging beliefs.

So could anyone who holds any kind of belief on any matter. So, what? We have schools run by Vulcans and robots?

I thought it was pretty self-explanatory really; in my opinion those who hold religious beliefs shouldn't be allowed to work with kids. I'll elaborate; especially if they're working in education & if they are they should at least maintain religious neutrality, although of course preferably just not have 'em.

Clear enough?

You can't be serious. No religious person is allowed to see children? How could that ever be enforced in any way other than banning religion?

So could anyone who holds any kind of belief on any matter. So, what? We have schools run by Vulcans and robots?

Live long, and prosper.


http://digitalleafblower.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/01/IMG_7015_edit-1.jpg

IMO, because they can influence the kiddos with their at best stupid & illogical and at worst actively damaging beliefs.

As a clown, I submit that sometimes damage can help. :)

As a clown, I submit that sometimes damage can help. :)

I would've loved to have you at a party when I was young(er). :(

Some heartbreaking stuff. Wouldnt tell the girl her mon died. And a church giving crappy food to children is........stops short of starting a holy war.

I would've loved to have you at a party when I was young(er). :(

Some of the best damage happens at parties. :)

Some heartbreaking stuff. Wouldnt tell the girl her mon died. And a church giving crappy food to children is........stops short of starting a holy war.

That and all the rape and molestation and beatings.

Some heartbreaking stuff. Wouldnt tell the girl her mon died. And a church giving crappy food to children is........stops short of starting a holy war.

Selective reading much?

More than 2,000 told the Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse they suffered physical and sexual abuse while there.

The leader of Ireland's Labour Party said the report contains accounts of children being flogged.

So kids should only hear government sanctioned opinions and viewpoints on life? So which great fascist leader influenced your idea of a nationwide thought police regime, was it Mussolini?

What does not brainwashing children with ideological bullshit have anything to do with a thought police? Non-religious doesn't necessarily mean solely governmental, I thought that was obvious to all non-morons. Plus what do you think a national curriculum is apart from the government deciding what should be taught? Its an inevitable part of any publicly run school system! As to the fascism thing; bleh boring comment & laboured comparison so I can't really be bothered to spend the precious irrelevant seconds of my life refuting it.
So could anyone who holds any kind of belief on any matter. So, what? We have schools run by Vulcans and robots?

Not all beliefs are equally damaging are they? Someone who believes Marmite is really nice isn't really as big a problem as someone who thinks that there is an omnipotent omniscient thingy that can't be seen or heard yet must be obeyed, usw. Also what's wrong with Vulcans and robots running schools? They're cool!
You can't be serious. No religious person is allowed to see children? How could that ever be enforced in any way other than banning religion?

And seriousness is essential because?
In all seriousness though, why just ban? why not set on fire and roll down hills or force to continously eat cheese as a visible sign of their silliness & to warn children. Why not just poke them very gently at first but insistently, in the eyes and other soft gibletty bits? Why not, blah de blah blah blah BLAH!

That and all the rape and molestation and beatings.



Selective reading much?

*sees that holy war is inevitable*

Well they do that all over the world anyway. WTF?? Basing a religion on a criminal that was executed.

And seriousness is essential because?
In all seriousness though, why just ban? why not set on fire and roll down hills or force to continously eat cheese as a visible sign of their silliness & to warn children. Why not just poke them very gently at first but insistenly, in the eyes and other soft gibletty bits? Why not, blah de blah blah blah BLAH!
Tis impossible to ban religion alltoghether.

I myself am an athiest, but I don't feel the need to make everyone-one. That makes you no better than the church of old.

Tis impossible to ban religion alltoghether.

I myself am an athiest, but I don't feel the need to make everyone-one. That makes you no better than the church of old.

Same h'nah.

What does not brainwashing children with ideological bullshit have anything to do with a thought police?

Because it's a (insanely authoritarian) government policy that mandates which thoughts count as 'ideological bullshit' and which 'don't', and restricting the freedoms of people with certain beliefs that the state does not desire, it's the very fucking definition of thought police.


Non-religious doesn't necessarily mean solely governmental, I thought that was obvious to all non-morons.

So please tell me which authoritative body will carry out the banning of people with undesired opinions from working with children? And why the fuck does it matter?


Plus what do you think a national curriculum is apart from the government deciding what should be taught?

I think a national curriculum decides what a state institution should teach. That has so little do with what you supported that it's actually quite funny as you did not merely suggest that state institutions should not teach religious values to kids.

Report due today on the abuse of children by the Catholic church in Ireland.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8058224.stm
This is part of a continuing pattern of abuse in many countries, and of cover ups by the Church.

Is it about time that we said the Catholic Church is not fit to be working with children?

The Catholic Church didn't abuse children. Only some members acted like that.

This thread is an insult for all Catholics. While I'm not one, I can't make generalising silly jokes about any specie.

Your post is not a joke, but rather serious intended.

I'm wondering what is the worse. And as usual mods allow this.

They should be stopped from working with children, or the priests should be allowed to marry, so they don't take out that pent-up sexual frustration on vulnerable children.

I seriously hope that was sarcasm. If not, that statement is as stupid as it can get. Lack of access to a woman does not turn people into child predators.

The problem with the Catholic Church is NOT "priests are more likely to molest children than your average guy." The priest in your local parish is more than likely a decent guy who would never hurt your kids. The problem is that several authorities made it a practice to cover it up when they did - and that is much less an issue of "the Catholic Church supports hurting children" and much more an issue of "the Catholic Church, like most major organizations, contains some people who are assholes and who would rather protect their careers than protect those most in need of protection."

But if the church kept the practice of moving these animals around and putting them next to more children and in cases promoting men that were caught hiding these animals? It's a little more then just a couple individuals protecting their career.

Not all beliefs are equally damaging are they? Someone who believes Marmite is really nice isn't really as big a problem as someone who thinks that there is an omnipotent omniscient thingy that can't be seen or heard yet must be obeyed, usw.
Of course, not all people who believe in omnipotent, omniscient deities allow that to get in the way of their occupation, whether its with children or with a tractor. Similarly, a small minority of pro-marmite-ites could get jobs as teachers and indoctrinate children into their way of thinking.

You see, the problem isn't with religious people, its with bad people.
Also what's wrong with Vulcans and robots running schools? They're cool!
It costs far less to hire humans. Its a recession, don't ya know?

Well they do that all over the world anyway.

Ah, well in that case I guess we'll just focus on some stories that are kinda sad and ignore the more disgusting ones, since that happens everywhere.

I can't see why any religious people should be allowed to work with children, catholic or not.

So, if the parents have any tendencies toward religion, their children would be removed from their care, is that what you're saying?

But if the church kept the practice of moving these animals around and putting them next to more children and in cases promoting men that were caught hiding these animals? It's a little more then just a couple individuals protecting their career.

Indeed, there were far more than a couple, and I certainly don't intend to suggest otherwise. It is still nonsensical to jump straight from "some authorities in the Catholic Church are worthless shits who protected child predators" to "Catholics can't be trusted around children!" The guys who molested kids are scum. The guys who protected them are scum. That doesn't make Father Joe Schmoe in the church down the street scum.

The Catholic Church didn't abuse children. Only some members acted like that.

This thread is an insult for all Catholics. While I'm not one, I can't make generalising silly jokes about any specie.

Your post is not a joke, but rather serious intended.

I'm wondering what is the worse. And as usual mods allow this.

I would argue that the physical abuse common to so many of the institutions run by the Catholic Church in Ireland suggests it was a deliberate policy, and as such the Church was responsible for abusing children. The acts of sexual abuse were carried out by individuals but the Church did nothing even when it knew it was occurring, in fact it colluded to cover it up.

I really don't understand what you are talking about in regard to the mods.

Ah, well in that case I guess we'll just focus on some stories that are kinda sad and ignore the more disgusting ones, since that happens everywhere.

I thought they at least fed them.

I thought they at least fed them.

In some cases I expect they did. Apparently the forms of abuse are varied indeed.

Indeed, there were far more than a couple, and I certainly don't intend to suggest otherwise. It is still nonsensical to jump straight from "some authorities in the Catholic Church are worthless shits who protected child predators" to "Catholics can't be trusted around children!" The guys who molested kids are scum. The guys who protected them are scum. That doesn't make Father Joe Schmoe in the church down the street scum.

In my head I know you are right. After all a sweeping generalization. But I admit to being conflicted.

I remember my old Priest. He was a hell of guy and I am glad he didn't live to see this mess. It probably would have broken his heart. I think of him and he is the perfect example for your argument of Father Joe Schmoe.

Then I think of all the scandel, the Duplessis Orphans, the aboriginal school in Canada, and then a coworkers husbands story. He coincidentally is Irish. My coworker once told me her husband came back from Ireland and he was in a foul mood to the point of she would not talk to him. As she said he is in a really dark place. After a few days he finally talked. He was in a pub with his life long friend who told him about being abused by the village Priest. It turns out he kidnapped the friend, took him out in the middle of no where, raped him and tortured him. Luckily the boy had the where withall to tell the parents who went to the Bishop. They were told "we are so sorry. We will deal with him. Please don't make much noise about this, etc. etc."

The Bishop simply transfered him to another country(I want to say Canada, but it could have been the US) where he was sent to a school. And of course, attack other children.

The friend told him the story after hearing about his arrest in the news....

The Church is payiing for their actions in a bad way. My sister told me a story of two neighbors. Two sisters in their 80s. Good Italian Catholics who went to mass all the time. When the scandle broke, they stopped going to Church. One told my sister "How can an orginization filled with Sinful men absolve me of my sins?"