NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.aol.com/health/article/boy-or-girl/489615

(May 19) - An Omaha child born a boy will start the next school year with a new name and a new identity -- as Katie, a girl.
According to the Omaha World-Herald, the parents of the 8-year-old say the child they first named Ben exhibited girlish tendencies as young as 2, when he would create long hair using scarves. A year later, he donned a tiara and dressed as a princess for Halloween.
The child's mother told a CNN affiliate that she's come forward to tell her family's story so people will understand. The Omaha newspaper reported that it is difficult to accurately estimate the number of people in Western countries who are transgendered, meaning they see themselves as a different gender, according to the American Psychological Association.
"If the child is truly transgender, it's not going to go away," said counselor Megan Smith, whom the family consulted.

This news article seems very interesting. This child has swing, naturally, from being a boy into being a girl. What do you believe, NSG, about transgerders?

This news article seems very interesting. This child has swing, naturally, from being a boy into being a girl.

Eeehm.. the boy likes dresses and dolls. While many people do associate that with "being girly", I do not see why it has to be so.

It would be nice if society could become more accepting of boys that like pink and dresses or of girls that like fast cars and weapons instead of just shoving those people into the "weirdo" category.

What do you believe, NSG, about transgerders?

Let them be happy.

I just hope the child can lead a productive and happy life. I kind of feel sorry for the child but have no idea if I really should.

My nephew is transgender. It sucks for him, without all the bullshit adults put on him about it.

I wish it was easier to be yourself, without other people trying to pigeon-hole you into what you "should be" based on their own biases.

I just hope the child can lead a productive and happy life. I kind of feel sorry for the child but have no idea if I really should.

You don't need to feel sorry for this child. She's doing fine. Worry about the ignorance and bigotry she'll experience.

Hmmm. I do so wonder what I feel about this subject. :)

I think if that's what she wants, then it's what she wants. I think it's disrespectful to CONSTANTLY pull the 'used to be a boy/girl' aspect up. it's like if we started talking about people who lost legs without being able to stop ourselves from saying 'well, this is Lisa, she's an amputee now but she used to have two legs!' The old name is more disrespectful, because every time you mention someones previous identity and name you make a little veiled reference to how the new one wasn't the one they were born with and you give people the opportunity to use it as a weapon. Denying identity stings. it makes it feel artificial.

I think that this will be a great learning experience for her, and most importantly I hope for one thing beyond any other thing. I hope that she doesn't feel forced to stay down this path. When we're young, we think and feel a lot of different things. Many trans people do know when they're young and that feeling doesn't go away. Many cisgender (not trans) people also have similar feelings that recede or develop further in a different way. I know that if she feels 'pressured' to stay as she is, then she won't be happy about it. :(

when I was 8 I wanted to be a power ranger so I feel this child's pain :(

What do you believe, NSG, about transgerders?

if they want to earn less and not be as awesome as being a boy sure >_>

It would be nice if society could become more accepting of boys that like pink and dresses or of girls that like fast cars and weapons instead of just shoving those people into the "weirdo" category.

I blame homosexuals if they would only do straight things there wouldn't be this problem :tongue:

when I was 8 I wanted to be a power ranger so I feel this child's pain :(

what color? :tongue:

I think it's great that Katie's parents are trying to do what makes their child happy and functional instead of what makes her "normal." :)

I blame homosexuals if they would only do straight things there wouldn't be this problem :tongue:
People (usually men) feel the need to tell me they're gay.....like I didn't already know.

"yeah, I know you're gay"
"what? I'm not a flamer! How did you know?"
"um.....other than you mentioning your boyfriend 40K times? You were staring at my husband's ass"
"he's cute"
"I know right!"

I think if that's what she wants, then it's what she wants. I think it's disrespectful to CONSTANTLY pull the 'used to be a boy/girl' aspect up. it's like if we started talking about people who lost legs without being able to stop ourselves from saying 'well, this is Lisa, she's an amputee now but she used to have two legs!' The old name is more disrespectful, because every time you mention someones previous identity and name you make a little veiled reference to how the new one wasn't the one they were born with and you give people the opportunity to use it as a weapon. Denying identity stings. it makes it feel artificial.

I agree with you. The correct thing is to aknowledge the fact that this person is who he/she is. If the person is a transgender, we need to aklowledge his/her new sex and not make references to the person he/she used to be.

I think that this will be a great learning experience for her, and most importantly I hope for one thing beyond any other thing. I hope that she doesn't feel forced to stay down this path. When we're young, we think and feel a lot of different things. Many trans people do know when they're young and that feeling doesn't go away. Many cisgender (not trans) people also have similar feelings that recede or develop further in a different way. I know that if she feels 'pressured' to stay as she is, then she won't be happy about it. :(

I hope she isn't subjected to bigotry and cruelty. Wishful thinking, but I do hope that for her.

what color? :tongue:

white duh!

I'd have my own theme tune when I fight and the pink ranger would be totally all over me which more than makes up for the fact that I'd be a massive douche

if they want to earn less and not be as awesome as being a boy sure >_>




Don't even joke about that stuff. From just my perspective, internalised sexism fucks things up. :( It's unbelievably difficult to try and shift into a gender that you are simultaneously needing to be, and have been raised to think of as lesser. Shame, embarassment, depression, it's no fun magic carpet ride.

People (usually men) feel the need to tell me they're gay.....like I didn't already know.

"yeah, I know you're gay"
"what? I'm not a flamer! How did you know?"
"um.....other than you mentioning your boyfriend 40K times? You were staring at my husband's ass"
"he's cute"
"I know right!"

Mr. Smunkee's Ass: Bringing Gay Guys Out of the Closet Since 1994(ish)! :p

Don't even joke about that stuff. From just my perspective, internalised sexism fucks things up. :( It's unbelievably difficult to try and shift into a gender that you are simultaneously needing to be, and have been raised to think of as lesser. Shame, embarassment, depression, it's no fun magic carpet ride.

HEY, HEY, HEY!

MACHO MACHO ... uh.

HEY, HEY, HEY!

MACHO MACHO ... uh.

I know this is totally unrelated but may apply somehow. You're homosexual. What's your experience with discrimination for sexual inclination?

Mr. Smunkee's Ass: Bringing Gay Guys Out of the Closet Since 1994(ish)! :p

Hehehe. It's funny because it's true.

Don't even joke about that stuff. From just my perspective, internalised sexism fucks things up. :( It's unbelievably difficult to try and shift into a gender that you are simultaneously needing to be, and have been raised to think of as lesser. Shame, embarassment, depression, it's no fun magic carpet ride.

*pees standing up*

er shes 8 years old would she even be aware of sexism in sociaty? kids just sorta whatever

*pees standing up*

er shes 8 years old would she even be aware of sexism in sociaty? kids just sorta whatever

Probably not. I was speaking in general, not just about her. After all, I only know how that internalisation affects me.

Edit: Smunkee trumps me what with practical reasoning. I hadn't even thought of that.

*pees standing up*

er shes 8 years old would she even be aware of sexism in sociaty? kids just sorta whatever

They're pretty aware when it affects them. My oldest daughter who will be 8 in July was pretty aware of it when it took us 3 years to find a co-ed baseball league........the mantra around here is "girls can't play baseball".......luckily she didn't give up and we found one so she gets to play this summer.

I know this is totally unrelated but may apply somehow. You're homosexual. What's your experience with discrimination for sexual inclination?

Every man I know wants to be a macho man; to have the kind of body that's in demand by the glamour industry. It's crazy, they go jogging in the mornings, work out at health spas, use copious amounts of baby oil to make their muscles glow...

You best believe that they're macho men, ready to get down with anyone they can.

Every man I know wants to be a macho man; to have the kind of body that's in demand by the glamour industry. It's crazy, they go jogging in the mornings, work out at health spas, use copious amounts of baby oil to make their muscles glow...

You best believe that they're macho men, ready to get down with anyone they can.

Maybe you don't know all men. At least some men go jogging only for their health or by habit. And I don't know a lot of men that use baby oil to glow.

Maybe you don't know all men. At least some men go jogging only for their health or by habit. And I don't know a lot of men that use baby oil to glow.

But... every man ought to be a macho man. Live a life of freedom, have their own life style and ideals, possess the strength and confidence.

If we didn't insist on imposing arbitrary gendered bullshit on kids in the first place, this sort of thing would probably never happen.

Maybe you don't know all men. At least some men go jogging only for their health or by habit. And I don't know a lot of men that use baby oil to glow.

It's true. The sort of guy GB is describing is a special person in anybody's land. See his big thick mustache?

Maybe you don't know all men. At least some men go jogging only for their health or by habit. And I don't know a lot of men that use baby oil to glow.

How do you glow then?

It's true. The sort of guy GB is describing is a special person in anybody's land. See his big thick mustache?

It's true. I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was. To catch men is my real test, to train them is my cause. I'll travel across the world, searching far and wide, if I need to.

Who cares? It's his/her body.

If we didn't insist on imposing arbitrary gendered bullshit on kids in the first place, this sort of thing would probably never happen.

I doubt it. There are many transgirls I've met who're positively butch, and despite taking hormones/getting surgery, will exhibit absolutely no traits deemed stereotypically 'feminine'.

er shes 8 years old would she even be aware of sexism in sociaty?
Yes.

In fact, research has shown that preschoolers are aware of sexism and gender roles, in a huge range of areas. From what toys they will select to which peers they will seek out to play with, even very young children are aware of the gender stereotypes in our culture.

Not really surprising, of course, considering the amount of effort people put in to enforcing the "natural" roles of the genders, and considering the amount of unconscious messaging that is included everywhere we look.

I remember reading a study a few years ago about TV advertising of children's toys. It turns out that when a toy is "gender neutral," advertisers are something like 3 times as likely to choose to use a boy in their ad campaigns, and this directly relates to the fact that girl children are significantly more willing to play with "boy" toys than boys are to play with "girl" toys.

Another more subtle thing I remember is that when a toy is marketed to girls the adverts are typically set inside a home, but adverts intended to sell toys to boys or to both sexes are more often set somewhere other than in the home.

I doubt it. There are many transgirls I've met who're positively butch, and despite taking hormones/getting surgery, will exhibit absolutely no traits deemed stereotypically 'feminine'.

Yeah, but ever challenge along the way, with courage you will face. You'll battle every day, to claim your rightful place. You should come with me, the time is right. There's no better team. Arm in arm, homos and trannies, we'll win the fight, as has always been our dream.

I doubt it. There are many transgirls I've met who're positively butch, and despite taking hormones/getting surgery, will exhibit absolutely no traits deemed stereotypically 'feminine'.
So have I. Irrelevant to my point.

Then I don't understand your point, which I'd interpreted that if we stopped gendering children, then childhood transness (what I interpreted as 'this') would never happen.

If my point that the gendering of a child doesn't make a difference in whether they will eventually come out as trans isn't relevant, then I'm clearly misunderstanding you.

Then I don't understand your point, which I'd interpreted that if we stopped gendering children, then childhood transness (what I interpreted as 'this') would never happen.

If my point that the gendering of a child doesn't make a difference in whether they will eventually come out as trans isn't relevant, then I'm clearly misunderstanding you.

If gender wasn't emphasised so much as a binary opposition relating only to what genitals are present, then the concept of 'trans' would be redundant as either girl or boy could be masculine or feminine as they are inclined to be without any negative reactions from society.

Every man I know wants to be a macho man; to have the kind of body that's in demand by the glamour industry. It's crazy, they go jogging in the mornings, work out at health spas, use copious amounts of baby oil to make their muscles glow...

You best believe that they're macho men, ready to get down with anyone they can.

:rolleyes:
Sorry I asked a relevant question.

If gender wasn't emphasised so much as a binary opposition relating only to what genitals are present, then the concept of 'trans' would be redundant as either girl or boy could be masculine or feminine as they are inclined to be without any negative reactions from society.

Which, as I stated was incorrect, as there are several transgirls that I know that are -masculine- in stereotypical behaviour but still feel a need to align how they identify and how their bodies are physically, with how they feel they should be. So it must be something else.

Which, as I stated was incorrect, as there are several transgirls that I know that are -masculine- in stereotypical behaviour but still feel a need to align how they identify and how their bodies are physically, with how they feel they should be. So it must be something else.

Maybe there are many different things.

1) I don't like my genitals, I want the other ones
2) I was born with the wrong set
3) I don't like things I'm "supposed to like"

I can see how someone could have all three going on at once, but I can also see how they could have just one or just two........right?

:rolleyes:
Sorry I asked a relevant question.

He's been quoting something all the way through this thread.

It seems to amuse him.

He's been quoting something all the way through this thread.

It seems to amuse him.

Yeah, the Macho Man song.

Which, as I stated was incorrect, as there are several transgirls that I know that are -masculine- in stereotypical behaviour but still feel a need to align how they identify and how their bodies are physically, with how they feel they should be. So it must be something else.

This doesn't conflict with what I said. They are trailblazers. If everyone was 'allowed' to be whatever stereotypical behaviour they wanted, regardless of gender or sex, there would be no negative concept of 'trans' and probably no need to single out people with a term.

Yeah, the Macho Man song.

Macho Macho man.... I want to be, a Macho man...

Macho Macho man.... I want to be, a Macho man...

And it's contagious...

Yeah, the Macho Man song.

I figured it was but I refused to google it.

And it's contagious...

Those are the only words I know... :(

Those are the only words I know... :(

And I thank the Fates for that... <_<

Maybe you don't know all men. At least some men go jogging only for their health or by habit. And I don't know a lot of men that use baby oil to glow.

That about sums it up. Every small boy wants to be a macho man but when they get older it becomes boring and irrelivent. Just keeping the old ticker working takes top priority.

This doesn't conflict with what I said. They are trailblazers. If everyone was 'allowed' to be whatever stereotypical behaviour they wanted, regardless of gender or sex, there would be no negative concept of 'trans' and probably no need to single out people with a term.

Potentially. I certainly believe that increased openness with peoples behaviour and a destruction of seeing things as 'for one gender or another' is a good thing, and I think it would help people stop seeing the very existence of trans people as a bad thing, but I don't think the word will vanish. I don't necessarily see the descriptor as singling us out. I can see how it can be applied in such a way and I'd like to see it not. But I identify as a trans woman. Not a cis woman, not a 'woman of transgender history'. It's a useful descriptor that doesn't render invisible our lives and experiences.

And Smunkee, it can be one or more of those things that trigger people. For me, it was just an overwhelming feeling of wrongness. I don't know whether i want different genitals, mine no longer feel wrong. I like stuff that falls on both sides of the stereotypical divide. I dress up, but I also assemble computers. I don't think that's even something special, nor should anyone. But that's also somewhat irrelevant. What I feel is so deep inside of me that it's difficult to describe. it's like an emotion all of its own. Define love, yadda yadda. But it's there. it tells me that I'm not meant to be considered as 'male'. I am meant to be considered 'female'. I don't want to have anything else strapped on to that, nothing to dirty those notions with preconception. I just have that feeling.

I believe that the child's gender confusion could have been solved by prescribing him more testosterone. Although if the kid truly wants to be a girl than I guess there is no changing that.

I believe that the child's gender confusion could have been solved with prescribing him more testosterone. Although if the kid truly wants to be a girl than I guess there is no changing that.

*chokes* you're kidding.... right? I mean there's so much wrong with that that I don't -actually- know where to begin.

*chokes* you're kidding.... right? I mean there's so much wrong with that that I don't -actually- know where to begin.

Missed your testosterone today huh?

Missed your testosterone today huh?

hahaha. I've not taken any for four years now! Imagine the state I must be in.

hahaha. I've not taken any for four years now! Imagine the state I must be in.

Irrational, unable to parallel park and needing a man to open your beetroot jars?

Irrational, unable to parallel park and needing a man to open your beetroot jars?

All of this is completely irrelevant to my intake of estrogen. I am Jordi, I can't drive, and I don't like beetroot.

All of this is completely irrelevant to my intake of estrogen. I am Jordi, I can't drive, and I don't like beetroot.

Touche.

And Smunkee, it can be one or more of those things that trigger people. For me, it was just an overwhelming feeling of wrongness. I don't know whether i want different genitals, mine no longer feel wrong. I like stuff that falls on both sides of the stereotypical divide. I dress up, but I also assemble computers. I don't think that's even something special, nor should anyone. But that's also somewhat irrelevant. What I feel is so deep inside of me that it's difficult to describe. it's like an emotion all of its own. Define love, yadda yadda. But it's there. it tells me that I'm not meant to be considered as 'male'. I am meant to be considered 'female'. I don't want to have anything else strapped on to that, nothing to dirty those notions with preconception. I just have that feeling.
Sounds like what my nephew says. He's pretty sure that he wasn't supposed to be male, although he's apathetic about the physical part of it right now and had us switch back to male pronouns (after 2 years of female pronouns).......he's not entirely sure what's going on, but he's pretty sure he's not a boy.

Potentially. I certainly believe that increased openness with peoples behaviour and a destruction of seeing things as 'for one gender or another' is a good thing, and I think it would help people stop seeing the very existence of trans people as a bad thing, but I don't think the word will vanish. I don't necessarily see the descriptor as singling us out. I can see how it can be applied in such a way and I'd like to see it not. But I identify as a trans woman. Not a cis woman, not a 'woman of transgender history'. It's a useful descriptor that doesn't render invisible our lives and experiences.

And Smunkee, it can be one or more of those things that trigger people. For me, it was just an overwhelming feeling of wrongness. I don't know whether i want different genitals, mine no longer feel wrong. I like stuff that falls on both sides of the stereotypical divide. I dress up, but I also assemble computers. I don't think that's even something special, nor should anyone. But that's also somewhat irrelevant. What I feel is so deep inside of me that it's difficult to describe. it's like an emotion all of its own. Define love, yadda yadda. But it's there. it tells me that I'm not meant to be considered as 'male'. I am meant to be considered 'female'. I don't want to have anything else strapped on to that, nothing to dirty those notions with preconception. I just have that feeling.

Fair enough. I sometimes wonder what is the most significant factor: societal expectations on gender and sex from an early age, or a pre-determined impulsion that your body is wrong for you. I can't think of anything else that is so fundamental to us and that is viewed in such a narrow way. Categorisation is key to how our brains function but sometimes society is enforcing these even more strictly, creating unnecessary strife.

I think 8 is a bit young for sex reassignment be it surgical or just social (as is the case here). They should wait for puberty to make that decision. When I was 8 I too would have identified as female. I played with dolls, played dress up, was always a girl when playing pretend, only hung out with girls, and was only interested in "girly" past times. But once I hit puberty, I no longer identified as female. I still had many "girly" interests, but very much saw myself as male. Still do. So I think they should just let the kid be as "girly" a boy as he wants to be without judgment, but wait until puberty to make life altering decisions. And if he identifies as female at that time, s/he should be supported in any decision s/he chooses to make in how s/he wants to live.

I think 8 is a bit young for sex reassignment be it surgical or just social (as is the case here). They should wait for puberty to make that decision. When I was 8 I too would have identified as female. I played with dolls, played dress up, was always a girl when playing pretend, only hung out with girls, and was only interested in "girly" past times. But once I hit puberty, I no longer identified as female. I still had many "girly" interests, but very much saw myself as male. Still do. So I think they should just let the kid be as "girly" a boy as he wants to be without judgment, but wait until puberty to make life altering decisions. And if he identifies as female at that time, s/he should be supported in any decision s/he chooses to make in how s/he wants to live.

I don't think letting her go by "Katie" and "her" is really a "life-altering decision." I can understand the argument for holding off on medical intervention, but I don't see how a change of nickname to suit the child's wishes does any harm.

The other problem with waiting until puberty, of course, is for a lot of transgendered people, puberty is a horrifying thing. If you KNOW you're not a girl, how much worse is it when your already-wrong body starts developing breasts, and hips, and menstruating? I think in some cases it may well be appropriate to start hormone therapy earlier to delay the development of those mismatched secondary sex characteristics. I do think sex reassignment surgery should always wait until adulthood, though.

I don't think letting her go by "Katie" and "her" is really a "life-altering decision." I can understand the argument for holding off on medical intervention, but I don't see how a change of nickname to suit the child's wishes does any harm.

The other problem with waiting until puberty, of course, is for a lot of transgendered people, puberty is a horrifying thing. If you KNOW you're not a girl, how much worse is it when your already-wrong body starts developing breasts, and hips, and menstruating? I think in some cases it may well be appropriate to start hormone therapy earlier to delay the development of those mismatched secondary sex characteristics. I do think sex reassignment surgery should always wait until adulthood, though.

Yep. Remember as well there are treatments that can stop puberty occuring also, to buy time. Puberty is a horrific experience for us. The time it's happening is bad enough, the fact that it changes you in ways that -cannot be changed back- is another. Bone structure, hair growth, voice being totally -ruined-, it makes things very difficult.

I believe that the child's gender confusion could have been solved by prescribing him more testosterone. Although if the kid truly wants to be a girl than I guess there is no changing that.

I don't think this child is confused. Pumping people with meds doesn't help, that's not the solution. Acknowledgment of her choosing is what she needs and the parents need to be cheered for accepting this. We can only hope the rest of society follows suit. It would fix so many things.

I don't think this child is confused. Pumping people with meds doesn't help, that's not the solution. Acknowledgment of her choosing is what she needs and the parents need to be cheered for accepting this. We can only hope the rest of society follows suit. It would fix so many things.

The fact of the matter is, the child is too young to make decisions for itself, which is why I think the child is confused. It is up to the parents to act in the child's best interests, and I think a sex change at his age is way too young.
Only when the child is over puberty and legally an adult would I recognize it's desire to become a female. Hormones do play a major influence which is why this could easily be just a testosterone deficiency.

The fact of the matter is, the child is too young to make decisions for itself, which is why I think the child is confused. It is up to the parents to act in the child's best interests, and I think a sex change at his age is way too young.
Only when the child is over puberty and legally an adult would I recognize it's desire to become a female. Hormones do play a major influence which is why this could easily be just a testosterone deficiency.

Morbo the news monster says: HORMONES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY.

The fact of the matter is, the child is too young to make decisions for itself, which is why I think the child is confused. It is up to the parents to act in the child's best interests, and I think a sex change at his age is way too young.

The child in question started exhibiting her preferences since she was 2 or 3 years of age. I don't think she's confused. She feels like a girl. Let her be.

Only when the child is over puberty and legally an adult would I recognize it's desire to become a female. Hormones do play a major influence which is why this could easily be just a testosterone deficiency.

It refers to things, this child isn't a thing. And chalking it up as a testosterone deficiency doesn't roll. What if this child feels she is a girl? It has nothing to do then with hormonal problems but with her identity. And this identity is that of a girl, regardless of genitalia or societal standards.

I'm impressed that there are parents out there who don't have their heads up their rectums when it comes to gender identity. Impressed, and happy.

Also, some have tried the argument that parents shouldn't be choosing this for their child.

Um. The child is making the choice. The parents, shockingly, are abiding by it, rather than forcing the child to behave according to social norms.

I understand that this approach is terrifyingly enlightened. Breathe. Deeply.

The fact of the matter is, the child is too young to make decisions for itself, which is why I think the child is confused. It is up to the parents to act in the child's best interests, and I think a sex change at his age is way too young.
Only when the child is over puberty and legally an adult would I recognize it's desire to become a female. Hormones do play a major influence which is why this could easily be just a testosterone deficiency.

No one is proposing a full sex change at age 8. They are simply letting their child be called Katie. It seems to me that if my options in making my child happy and functional were either "fill my child with with pretty freaking potent drugs which can have some nasty side effects and which there is no scientific evidence to suggest will help" or "call my child Katie," I'm sure as hell going to TRY the second option first.

Also, hormone injections at -8- years of age, several years before puberty is supposed to start? I'm not sure, but I think from any standpoint, that might turn out to be actively harmful.

Also, hormone injections at -8- years of age, several years before puberty is supposed to start? I'm not sure, but I think from any standpoint, that might turn out to be actively harmful.

That does seem very possible.

I'm impressed that there are parents out there who don't have their heads up their rectums when it comes to gender identity. Impressed, and happy.

Indeed! I almost got into an actual fight(something that I have not done for many, many years now) a few weeks ago with one of my brothers.

A mutal friend come back from foreign climes, and brought with him the news that he had just married a transgenderd woman. Who is at the moment still pre-op.

At a party one of my brothers told him, that is told him not asked him, that he must be gay. He simply just could not understand it, you are either male or female, and thus gay or straight. *shrug* When I told him how wrong he ws, and tried to explain it to him his mind just closed down, and when I told him just how closed minded his attitude was, well lets say that he choose to hurriedly leave the party.

They should wait for puberty to make that decision.

But once your body starts changing, changing your sex is harder to pull of convincingly. i.e you might still have a deep voice, facial hair etc.

This news article seems very interesting. This child has swing, naturally, from being a boy into being a girl.

Or just enjoys things that are considered "girly"? Doesn't necessarily make him a trans.

What do you believe, NSG, about transgerders?

Transgerders? Never heard of em. Transgenders however, I have no problem with. Personally I can't see why you'd consider yourself a different sex to the one you were born as, but that's just me, and it's not my job to judge them. They're people, just like everyone else, and I have no problem with them. I do, however, have a huge problem with transphobes. They actually make me angrier than homophobes.

Or just enjoys things that are considered "girly"? Doesn't necessarily make him a trans.

Perhaps, but this child's preferences have manifested since she was quite young. It is plausible that her identity is that of a girl, despite the male genitalia.

Transgerders? Never heard of em.

Smartass.:tongue:

Transgenders however, I have no problem with. Personally I can't see why you'd consider yourself a different sex to the one you were born as, but that's just me, and it's not my job to judge them. They're people, just like everyone else, and I have no problem with them. I do, however, have a huge problem with transphobes. They actually make me angrier than homophobes.

Both homophobes and transphobes are a bad element. No one has the right to judge another human being on the basis of sexual and gender preferences, or for anything else. The day we understand that will be the day we have earned the right to be called human.

Both homophobes and transphobes are a bad element. No one has the right to judge another human being on the basis of sexual and gender preferences, or for anything else. The day we understand that will be the day we have earned the right to be called human.

Umm whilst I fully agree with your sentiments here, you are slightly wrong.

There are no inherent rights, only those that we are given or those that we take. We all therefore have the right to judge others however and with whatever bias, or on whatever basis we want to, it just takes us doing it to reinforces such rights.
As to being called human, well that surely is a fucntion of biology.:D

I just hope the child can lead a productive and happy life. I kind of feel sorry for the child but have no idea if I really should.

I guess that the child is going to have hard times at school: on the average, kids can be quite horrible to someone who's non-standard.

Apart from that, let him be happy with the gender (or mix thereof) he feels as own.

No one is proposing a full sex change at age 8. They are simply letting their child be called Katie. It seems to me that if my options in making my child happy and functional were either "fill my child with with pretty freaking potent drugs which can have some nasty side effects and which there is no scientific evidence to suggest will help" or "call my child Katie," I'm sure as hell going to TRY the second option first.

If it doesn't work out you can just go back to calling your child whatever he was before Katie. Getting all that testosterone out of his system? Well you're kinda fucked there. Best to leave the irreversible options for last, just in case.

There are no inherent rights, only those that we are given or those that we take. We all therefore have the right to judge others however and with whatever bias, or on whatever basis we want to, it just takes us doing it to reinforces such rights.

I disagree with you. It is true we all judge. No one is innocent of such, but we do not have any right to judge others. It is superfluous wether we think we have the right, wether it's inherent or not.

How do you glow then?

1.LEDs
2.phosphorous powder
3.fluorite slips

1.LEDs
2.phosphorous powder
3.fluorite slips

You forgot #4, Ris. The "I glow after sex" alternative.:D

Risottia; it always interests me to read people speaking (of trans women, so the terminology 'doesn't' fit) and they say 'let him be happy and do what he wants'. But yet you get the pronouns wrong? I mean I understand you perhaps don't have cause to think about it. But you sound contradictory to us. on one hand you sound implicitly supportive of our rights to be ourselves, but yet you also still maintain your privelige to gender us with your pronouns of choice. You have never met this child but you still feel compelled to say 'he and him', despite their obvious wishes. Why? This is a genuine question to something I find difficult to understand.

Also, I'm impressed this thread is still going when I'm not posting. I'm so used to threads about trans people devolving into the few of us here making 'rawr' posts against bigots. All of this positivity might just go to my head and make me think I'm normal for a moment!

You forgot #4, Ris. The "I glow after sex" alternative.:D

I didn't think they'd managed to get humans to glow yet, just a few cats and a puppy.

I don't think letting her go by "Katie" and "her" is really a "life-altering decision." I can understand the argument for holding off on medical intervention, but I don't see how a change of nickname to suit the child's wishes does any harm.

Exactly. When I was little I always wanted to be called by "boyish" nicknames instead of my given name, and it didn't matter to anybody that I know of. Most kids have nicknames.

The pronoun is the tricky part, though. For instance, what if Katie wants to use the bathroom at school? Do the schools allow her to use the girl's room, or is she still expected to use the boy's room (I still don't see why pre-pubescent kids NEED gendered bathrooms, but that's a discussion for another time)? Even little kids can be vicious about enforcing gender roles and punishing anybody who isn't gender-conforming, like a girl named Katie who is still told to use the boy's restroom.

Please be clear that I'm not saying bullying is a good reason to deny her whatever pronoun she prefers, just that our culture is so deeply invested in gender roles that even something as small as a pronoun can generate a massive amount of trouble and will need to be handled by the adults in her life. If her parents think they can just let Katie be a girl and the world will be okay with it, well, that's naive and irresponsible of them. They're going to have to be aggressive in defending their kid.


The other problem with waiting until puberty, of course, is for a lot of transgendered people, puberty is a horrifying thing. If you KNOW you're not a girl, how much worse is it when your already-wrong body starts developing breasts, and hips, and menstruating? I think in some cases it may well be appropriate to start hormone therapy earlier to delay the development of those mismatched secondary sex characteristics. I do think sex reassignment surgery should always wait until adulthood, though.
Speaking from personal experience:

I KNEW I wasn't a girl, from at least as young as 5 years old. Puberty was, as you say, somewhat hellish.

When I was about 11 years old, my mom decided to make life-size dolls of me and my brother. What you do is take big pieces of muslin, double it over, have the kid lay down on it, and you trace their outline. Then you sew the pieces together to make a doll that is big enough to dress in the kid's own clothes. It was just a fun silly summer project.

But when I saw the outline my mother had traced of me, I flipped out. The outline had hips. Not real curves, not yet, but it was definitely a GIRL outline. I hated it and I screamed and ranted at my mother for at least 15 minutes because I couldn't believe she would draw that and claim it was me. Of course it was me, it just wasn't my self-image.

I threw a similar fit when it was time for me to buy my first bra. I hated growing breasts, to the point where I asked my parents if I could have surgery to remove them. (I was 13 at the time, and not even a full A cup.)

It is a very, very, very, very good thing that young people like me are NOT allowed to undergo gender reassignment or get hormone treatments as minors.

I still don't like having breasts, but I do like being female. I still often feel that I was "supposed" to be male, but by the time I was old enough to choose reassignment I realized I didn't want it. I am extremely glad that 8-year-old me was not allowed to get hormone treatments or surgery or any of the other sex reassignment options that I would have asked for if I were allowed.

I know there are plenty of transpeople who have a different experience from me, who decide that they DO want reassignment, and who are happier because they are able to go through with it. But the problem is, you can't tell the difference between folks like me and folks like them when we're 8 years old.

Children are acutely aware of the ways in which they are different. Children are not stupid, and they are very sensitive to any of the ways in which their bodies don't match up with the Rules. Most importantly, we've known for almost a century that children's sense of "self" is much more externally determined than adults; as we get older, our sense of self becomes more and more internally driven, but we all start out perceiving ourselves in terms of how we are perceived. (Which makes perfect sense, because from infancy we are wired to learn by imitation.)

A child's self-image, like their body, isn't finished forming. That doesn't mean their feelings are wrong or that we should ignore them; if anything, the opposite! Trying to force a child to perceive themselves as male or female is as stupid as trying to force their body to conform to gender images, like if you decided that 8-year-old girls need to have boob implants to make them look more decisively "female."

Letting this kid be called Katie and identify as female is great. I only wish the world would be more chill about it. But messing with her body, whether she says she wants it or not, is a lousy idea. Transkids are, at the end of the day, still KIDS. Most kids of any orientation or identity will hate something about their bodies at one point or another, and teaching them that they should medically alter anything they dislike about themselves isn't the solution.

I disagree with you. It is true we all judge. No one is innocent of such, but we do not have any right to judge others. It is superfluous wether we think we have the right, wether it's inherent or not.

*shrug* You are entilted to disagree, but please examine it closer and you'll see that what I say is logicaly true.

If we do not have this right, then what imposess this non right upon us?

If we do have a right or we do not have a right, then their must be something that garentees ethier. If for example I have the right to freedom of specah, from which source does this right spring? Is it inherent? Is it God given, is it a right that I have grabbed for myself, or is it as I suspect a right that has been granted by a whole bunch of people agreeing that such a right should exist and then enshrouding int in law?

If there are no inherent rights then by what power can I not judge others how I want? Sure in some cases it may not be nice, but there is really nothing stopping me from doing it.

You forgot #4, Ris. The "I glow after sex" alternative.:D

Che maniaca! :D

Che maniaca! :D

Hombre, claro!:D

lots of stuff in here

I pretty much agree with you if your belief that hormones should not be given does not preclude the prescription of drugs to delay puberty, which I believe can be of great use.

It's too late for you, pet. Puberty has come and gone.

My edit wasn't ninja worthy, I see.:(

My edit wasn't ninja worthy, I see.:(

Neither was mine, apparently.

I pretty much agree with you if your belief that hormones should not be given does not preclude the prescription of drugs to delay puberty, which I believe can be of great use.

Honestly, I oppose pretty much all cosmetic medical procedures on kids, regardless of the motives. Not saying I would legally ban them, I just think it's a shitty idea to do anything to a kid's body that isn't medically justified.

So I guess my answer to your proposition would be that there are plenty of medically-valid reasons to delay the onset of puberty, but there are also some lousy reasons to do so. The reasons are crucial to me.

Honestly, I oppose pretty much all cosmetic medical procedures on kids, regardless of the motives. Not saying I would legally ban them, I just think it's a shitty idea to do anything to a kid's body that isn't medically justified.

Especially considering that the body of a child is still developing.

Can you elaborate on this Jordi, please? I'm curious. There are drugs that can delay puberty?

Yeah. Well I know what they're called for people who want to delay male puberty - anti-androgens. Basically, they counteract the effect of testosterone. since the biologically male body isn't producing much estrogen to begin with. That stops male puberty pretty much wholesale, buying time for the person taking them to actually reach a time where they're as sure as can be about their gender identity. Then the correct hormones (whichever they turn out to be) can be given/allowed to act, resulting in a relatively normal development (it is, after all, a few years late.)

it's more a matter of a slippy memory that I can't recall what is used to stop female puberty, since I obviously didn't take any of that stuff but I'm on a permanent anti-androgen dose to stop things like hair loss from ever occuring.

Yeah. Well I know what they're called for people who want to delay male puberty - anti-androgens. Basically, they counteract the effect of testosterone. since the biologically male body isn't producing much estrogen to begin with. That stops male puberty pretty much wholesale, buying time for the person taking them to actually reach a time where they're as sure as can be about their gender identity. Then the correct hormones (whichever they turn out to be) can be given/allowed to act, resulting in a relatively normal development (it is, after all, a few years late.)

Hmmm... that sounds like a good thing to do. That grants the individual sufficient time to grow comfortable in his/her own identity. That also helps prevent any psychological problems that may occur on the transition.

Especially considering that the body of a child is still developing.

Exactly.

The other thing to keep in mind is that not all transpeople choose the same procedures or types of sexual reassignment. One transman I know has lived as a man for many years, has been on hormone therapy for years, and has had his breasts removed and his pecks reshaped, but he does not want to have any surgical alterations to his genitals. Yet many transmen feel that they are "incomplete" until they've had their genitals reshaped. And there are also those who feel incomplete in that manner and yet STILL choose not to have that surgery because they don't feel that the results provided by our current methods are sufficient, or because they don't want to take the risks associated, or for any of a host of other reasons.

A child may know that they feel they are in the "wrong" body. But they simply aren't going to be able to evaluate and appreciate all the medical decisions that are involved in transitioning. They don't even know what their body will be like when it is developed, so neither they nor anybody else can make an informed decision about how that developed body will fit with what the child wants, or how the child might want their developed body to be altered.

Risottia; it always interests me to read people speaking (of trans women, so the terminology 'doesn't' fit) and they say 'let him be happy and do what he wants'. But yet you get the pronouns wrong? I mean I understand you perhaps don't have cause to think about it. But you sound contradictory to us. on one hand you sound implicitly supportive of our rights to be ourselves, but yet you also still maintain your privelige to gender us with your pronouns of choice. You have never met this child but you still feel compelled to say 'he and him', despite their obvious wishes. Why? This is a genuine question to something I find difficult to understand.

1."Us"? Plurale maiestatis now? Or speaking for someone else? :confused:
2.Anyway I don't feel "compelled" to use masculine or feminine. The child is biologically a male; he's still at an age when people can change the course of their own psyche's evolution (so, he could revert to a "standard male" orientation), so I chose to go for masculine. I don't like the "s/he" forms (I find them ugly, and definitely not good English); the "he or she" is quite longish, and there is no neuter form in English for people.

By the way: did you meet this child yourself? If you did not, why should I use the pronouns of your own choice? Or someone else's? Are grammatical genders THAT important, after all? I think they aren't - and I'm used to think in a language which applies grammatical gender to ANY noun.

Also, I'm impressed this thread is still going when I'm not posting.
Why do you feel so indispensable?

1."Us"? Plurale maiestatis now? Or speaking for someone else? :confused:

Us. As in, me and a very specific group of trans people (the ones I know) who find this curious.



By the way: did you meet this child yourself? If you did not, why should I use the pronouns of your own choice?

I didn't choose them. She did. Do I need to meet people to get a grasp on what they might like to be referred to. Hey, if she considered herself genderqueer and opted for neutral pronouns, then that'd be cool, but I'm going with the odds here. if she's changing her name to a typically female name and says she feels she is a girl, I'm going to guess that maybe she might want to be referred to as she. I'm certainly not entitled to challenge that.


Why do you feel so indispensable?

Ego. And it's a joke, mostly private, making light of the fact that recently I have felt that whenever trans centred discussions turn up on NS, I'm generally there frothing at the mouth until the end, posting about every little thing that pops into my head. Kinda like now, see?

Why do you feel so serious?

Us. As in, me and a very specific group of trans people (the ones I know) who find this curious.

I see - still I find it's an odd habit to speak for other people who happen to share something between them - well, unless one's a speaker of some organisation.


I didn't choose them. She did. Do I need to meet people to get a grasp on what they might like to be referred to.
Since you supposed that about me, I supposed that you would assume the same about yourself.
Btw, I would like to be referred to as "Sire" or "Mon Empereur", but this doesn't grant me the right to be referred to as such.


Hey, if she considered herself genderqueer and opted for neutral pronouns, then that'd be cool, but I'm going with the odds here.

Definitely not cool. "It" is just for inanimated items - and a child isn't a robot. English isn't German ("es" can be applied to beings and items).


if she's changing her name to a typically female name and says she feels she is a girl, I'm going to guess that maybe she might want to be referred to as she. I'm certainly not entitled to challenge that.

1.Still biologically a male individual - and I'm certainly not entitled to challenge that, either.
2.I wonder why many people focus on form (like grammatical genders) instead than focusing on essence.

Why do you feel so serious?
Because it's the only way of not falling from the chair laughing, and the floor is to cold and dirty to sit on.

I see - still I find it's an odd habit to speak for other people who happen to share something between them - well, unless one's a speaker of some organisation.

I suppose so.


Since you supposed that about me, I supposed that you would assume the same about yourself.
Btw, I would like to be referred to as "Sire" or "Mon Empereur", but this doesn't grant me the right to be referred to as such.

If being a lord or emperor was an integral part of your identity and it being ignored actually constituted you some (albeit relatively minor but certainly eventually cumulative) psychological harm, I'd be concerned.


Definitely not cool. "It" is just for inanimated items - and a child isn't a robot. English isn't German ("es" can be applied to beings and items).

neutral pronouns may not be in official use but they do exist amongst elements of the genderqueer community. sie (replaces s/he), hir (replaces him/her). I personally find them to be quite ugly words, but if the person wanted them it certainly would not hurt me to oblige.


1.Still biologically a male individual - and I'm certainly not entitled to challenge that, either.
2.I wonder why many people focus on form (like grammatical genders) instead than focusing on essence.

1: is largely irrelevant. why should someones genitals affect how you call them, and why does this trump their chosen pronouns? Were you to lose your genitals, may I refer to you as an it? Of course not, that would be absurd. So the presence of either genitals should be irrelevant to our choice of pronouns for a person. That can only be their choice.
2:By focusing on form you -are- focusing on essence. by not immediately conceding that you've no right to determine their maleness or femaleness, you force your perception of them onto them. You are saying 'I have the right to call you male or female, this is not your decision. It is essential to your circumstances of birth and biology.


Because it's the only way of not falling from the chair laughing, and the floor is to cold and dirty to sit on.

Fair enough then. I shall avoid the slapstick routine.

1: is largely irrelevant. why should someones genitals affect how you call them, and why does this trump their chosen pronouns? Were you to lose your genitals, may I refer to you as an it? Of course not, that would be absurd. So the presence of either genitals should be irrelevant to our choice of pronouns for a person. That can only be their choice.

The presence of genitals is irrelevant, true. The genotype, though, is not, since it carries a lot of consequences which aren't just the form of the genitals or facial hair. And this isn't exactly a choice: if a XY human wants to have the same hormones of a XX human, he's going to need some kind of medical manipulation of his body.

Also, the choice of pronouns isn't determined by individuals' choices. It is determined by grammar - which has to be kept as per standard if we want to continue understanding each other.


2You are saying 'I have the right to call you male or female, this is not your decision. It is essential to your circumstances of birth and biology.

Exactly. Biologically being male or female is determined by genotype. Which is not a choice. It happens - just as rarer genotypes (like XYY etc) can happen.

The point is that is we choose to ignore the biology of the individuals to focus only on the individual's desires, we'll forget (or at least overlook) the problems that a genderqueer (if we want to call him that) person is going to have, like the need for medical care to shape himself into the desired gender.

My first reaction is "whatever gets you through the night".

My second is that the kid is immature and may not know what's up; parents have a lot of influence over a child that age. Are the parents reliable? Do they have the best interests of the child at heart? Or are they grinding some axe of their own, and using the child as a stalking horse?
After that, if the kid is honestly transgendered in her mind and soul, let her be a girl.

But not until then, because of the dangers of parental pressures forcing this behavior.

I think the child is too young to have established an identity.
I think something the parents did has created this. My guess saying something like I wish we had a girl once too often where the boy could hear.

I think the child is too young to have established an identity.
I think something the parents did has created this. My guess saying something like I wish we had a girl once too often where the boy could hear.

The child started showing this conduct from as early as 2 years of age. Can a child that young comprehend the parents saying something like wanting a girl instead of a boy?

I think the child is too young to have established an identity.
I think something the parents did has created this. My guess saying something like I wish we had a girl once too often where the boy could hear.

er... Care to back this statement up?

The presence of genitals is irrelevant, true. The genotype, though, is not, since it carries a lot of consequences which aren't just the form of the genitals or facial hair. And this isn't exactly a choice: if a XY human wants to have the same hormones of a XX human, he's going to need some kind of medical manipulation of his body.

Also, the choice of pronouns isn't determined by individuals' choices. It is determined by grammar - which has to be kept as per standard if we want to continue understanding each other.


Exactly. Biologically being male or female is determined by genotype. Which is not a choice. It happens - just as rarer genotypes (like XYY etc) can happen.

The point is that is we choose to ignore the biology of the individuals to focus only on the individual's desires, we'll forget (or at least overlook) the problems that a genderqueer (if we want to call him that) person is going to have, like the need for medical care to shape himself into the desired gender.

You haven't stated why you think the pronouns refer only to genotype and ignore gender.

And an analogous question: if someone you know dyed their hair, would you continue to refer to their hair only as the original colour?

Exactly. When I was little I always wanted to be called by "boyish" nicknames instead of my given name, and it didn't matter to anybody that I know of. Most kids have nicknames.

The pronoun is the tricky part, though. For instance, what if Katie wants to use the bathroom at school? Do the schools allow her to use the girl's room, or is she still expected to use the boy's room (I still don't see why pre-pubescent kids NEED gendered bathrooms, but that's a discussion for another time)? Even little kids can be vicious about enforcing gender roles and punishing anybody who isn't gender-conforming, like a girl named Katie who is still told to use the boy's restroom.

Please be clear that I'm not saying bullying is a good reason to deny her whatever pronoun she prefers, just that our culture is so deeply invested in gender roles that even something as small as a pronoun can generate a massive amount of trouble and will need to be handled by the adults in her life. If her parents think they can just let Katie be a girl and the world will be okay with it, well, that's naive and irresponsible of them. They're going to have to be aggressive in defending their kid.


Speaking from personal experience:

I KNEW I wasn't a girl, from at least as young as 5 years old. Puberty was, as you say, somewhat hellish.

When I was about 11 years old, my mom decided to make life-size dolls of me and my brother. What you do is take big pieces of muslin, double it over, have the kid lay down on it, and you trace their outline. Then you sew the pieces together to make a doll that is big enough to dress in the kid's own clothes. It was just a fun silly summer project.

But when I saw the outline my mother had traced of me, I flipped out. The outline had hips. Not real curves, not yet, but it was definitely a GIRL outline. I hated it and I screamed and ranted at my mother for at least 15 minutes because I couldn't believe she would draw that and claim it was me. Of course it was me, it just wasn't my self-image.

I threw a similar fit when it was time for me to buy my first bra. I hated growing breasts, to the point where I asked my parents if I could have surgery to remove them. (I was 13 at the time, and not even a full A cup.)

It is a very, very, very, very good thing that young people like me are NOT allowed to undergo gender reassignment or get hormone treatments as minors.

I still don't like having breasts, but I do like being female. I still often feel that I was "supposed" to be male, but by the time I was old enough to choose reassignment I realized I didn't want it. I am extremely glad that 8-year-old me was not allowed to get hormone treatments or surgery or any of the other sex reassignment options that I would have asked for if I were allowed.

I know there are plenty of transpeople who have a different experience from me, who decide that they DO want reassignment, and who are happier because they are able to go through with it. But the problem is, you can't tell the difference between folks like me and folks like them when we're 8 years old.

Children are acutely aware of the ways in which they are different. Children are not stupid, and they are very sensitive to any of the ways in which their bodies don't match up with the Rules. Most importantly, we've known for almost a century that children's sense of "self" is much more externally determined than adults; as we get older, our sense of self becomes more and more internally driven, but we all start out perceiving ourselves in terms of how we are perceived. (Which makes perfect sense, because from infancy we are wired to learn by imitation.)

A child's self-image, like their body, isn't finished forming. That doesn't mean their feelings are wrong or that we should ignore them; if anything, the opposite! Trying to force a child to perceive themselves as male or female is as stupid as trying to force their body to conform to gender images, like if you decided that 8-year-old girls need to have boob implants to make them look more decisively "female."

Letting this kid be called Katie and identify as female is great. I only wish the world would be more chill about it. But messing with her body, whether she says she wants it or not, is a lousy idea. Transkids are, at the end of the day, still KIDS. Most kids of any orientation or identity will hate something about their bodies at one point or another, and teaching them that they should medically alter anything they dislike about themselves isn't the solution.

I think you make some very valid points, and I think in most cases I'd agree with you. I've just been particularly strongly influenced by a transgendered guy I used to know who, when he was about 15 or 16, literally tried to slice his own breasts off with a knife. I think when someone is THAT miserable in their body, it's probably better to go for a medical intervention that won't kill them, like delaying puberty as Jordaxia suggested, rather than letting them self-destruct. I don't think there is any one perfect solution for all cases, but rather a balancing act for each individual child.

The child started showing this conduct from as early as 2 years of age. Can a child that young comprehend the parents saying something like wanting a girl instead of a boy?

Can a child show at the age of two show real girl like tendencies?
Are the parents qualified psychiatrist or is this just what the parents perceive

Going to a source of Child gender Identity issues.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90229789

It seems more to be a phase. The Vast majority of prepubescent with Gender identity issues revert back to their birth gender according to Dr. Zucker.
His research suggest that in cases like these there is an underling problem to which the kid perceives the answer of that problem is to be the opposite gender.

I think you make some very valid points, and I think in most cases I'd agree with you. I've just been particularly strongly influenced by a transgendered guy I used to know who, when he was about 15 or 16, literally tried to slice his own breasts off with a knife. I think when someone is THAT miserable in their body, it's probably better to go for a medical intervention that won't kill them, like delaying puberty as Jordaxia suggested, rather than letting them self-destruct. I don't think there is any one perfect solution for all cases, but rather a balancing act for each individual child.

15 and 16 is different from 8.

15 and 16 is different from 8.

If I personally was born with a penis and felt like that was wrong......I wouldn't want an Adam's apple. The idea that you could take some medicine to prevent it, and then if you changed your mind quit the medicine and it would come.... that's my understanding of it.

You can't make it go away once it's there though.

If I personally was born with a penis and felt like that was wrong......I wouldn't want an Adam's apple. The idea that you could take some medicine to prevent it, and then if you changed your mind quit the medicine and it would come.... that's my understanding of it.

You can't make it go away once it's there though.

Except that surgery is irreversible(or very hard to reverse). And 88% of children with before puberty gender issues revert back to their birth gender.
After puberty yes lets reassign your gender. Before puberty, the numbers don't justify it, to many false alarms for a expensive, dangerous, and hard to reverse surgery.

Except that surgery is irreversible(or very hard to reverse). And 88% of children with before puberty gender issues revert back to their birth gender.

Source please.

15 and 16 is different from 8.

That's true. Also, blue is different from purple, and walruses are different from seals. Now, if you could show me what any of that has to do with anything I've argued...?

Source please.

already showed in a previous post. mentioned in the interview with Dr. Zucker.

already showed in a previous post. mentioned in the interview with Dr. Zucker.

Is that your only source?

Except that surgery is irreversible(or very hard to reverse). And 88% of children with before puberty gender issues revert back to their birth gender.
After puberty yes lets reassign your gender. Before puberty, the numbers don't justify it, to many false alarms for a expensive, dangerous, and hard to reverse surgery.

I'm not talking about surgery. Nobody is talking about surgery for kids.

Is that your only source?

Have you posted a source to refute ?
Or am I the only one not playing arm chair psychologist ?

Have you posted a source to refute ?
Or am I the only one not playing arm chair psychologist ?

I'm not refuting anything, I just want to know if that's your only source.

I'm not refuting anything, I just want to know if that's your only source.

only one i am willing to go dig up at the moment.
Unless you have Jstor. Then I could link his actual studies.

only one i am willing to go dig up at the moment.
Unless you have Jstor. Then I could link his actual studies.

Try linking me.

already showed in a previous post. mentioned in the interview with Dr. Zucker.

I wouldn't trust dr Zucker as far as I can throw the son of a bitch. the amount of childrens lives he's ruined sickens me.

I think you make some very valid points, and I think in most cases I'd agree with you. I've just been particularly strongly influenced by a transgendered guy I used to know who, when he was about 15 or 16, literally tried to slice his own breasts off with a knife. I think when someone is THAT miserable in their body, it's probably better to go for a medical intervention that won't kill them, like delaying puberty as Jordaxia suggested, rather than letting them self-destruct. I don't think there is any one perfect solution for all cases, but rather a balancing act for each individual child.
I don't know. I mean, one could just as easily argue that a person who is unstable enough to slice off their own breasts might not be fit to make serious medical decisions for themselves. One could also argue that we shouldn't get in the habit of giving self-harming teenagers whatever they say they want. I mean, I had a friend who made two (very serious) suicide attempts as a teen. The fact that he was quite sure he wanted to die wasn't enough to convince me that he should be allowed to kill himself, so I could see somebody arguing that a teenager who wants to cut his/her breasts off should be protected from themselves.

That's me playing Devil's Advocate, of course. I think you and Jor are on the right track with the idea that less serious forms of intervention would be a good stop-gap measure.

The other sticky wicket in all of this is the issue of parental consent. It's sort of the flip side of another thread right now. What if Katie wanted to be a girl, but her mom and pop were opposed? What if your friend's parents wouldn't give consent for any puberty-delaying treatment? At what point (if any) do the parents get over-ruled?

http://www.brainchildmag.com/essays/fall2001_wilkinson.htm

it's an old source, but here is -all- you need to know on him. (he doesn't appear until a bit down the article, but the whole article is emblematic of the approach he takes) and you know what? it's that frakker that's getting to decide, along with fucking BLANCHARD (another ignoramus with delusions of intellect) whether us trans people are mentally ill.

it makes me sick.

http://www.brainchildmag.com/essays/fall2001_wilkinson.htm

it's an old source, but here is -all- you need to know on him. (he doesn't appear until a bit down the article, but the whole article is emblematic of the approach he takes) and you know what? it's that frakker that's getting to decide, along with fucking BLANCHARD (another ignoramus with delusions of intellect) whether us trans people are mentally ill.

it makes me sick.

He is indeed a sicko doctor. What's more, after browsing through that source, I wouldn't even call him a medical professional.

As Becky played, she was interrupted from time to time and told to press the wrist counter if she had only played with girls' toys since the last time she heard the doctor's voice. Becky grew anxious to accumulate points to please her doctor. In this way, Becky was supposed to be trained to develop an aversion to masculine playthings. Other parts of Becky's therapy consisted of having a team of four therapists come into her bedroom at home to watch, take notes on a clipboard, and time her with a stopwatch as she played with her toys. After seven months, she was declared cured, now showing "a decrease in excessive aggression and an increase in general compliance."

I am disgusted.

I still don't see what the big deal is with him wanting to be a girl.

Can a child show at the age of two show real girl like tendencies?
Are the parents qualified psychiatrist or is this just what the parents perceive

Going to a source of Child gender Identity issues.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90229789

It seems more to be a phase. The Vast majority of prepubescent with Gender identity issues revert back to their birth gender according to Dr. Zucker.
His research suggest that in cases like these there is an underling problem to which the kid perceives the answer of that problem is to be the opposite gender.
Take that source with a very, very large mountain of salt.

"Reverting back to your birth gender" is easily confused with "realizing that the amount of shit you will take for being non-gender-conforming is so massive that it will blot out most of the rest of your lifetime, and resigning yourself to the fact that it's probably just easier to give in and conform."

But, more importantly, look at the "indicators" of childhood GID. You know what they are? Basically any behavior where the child is "going against the normative gender grain for the culture." So a girl who prefers to play with boy's toys? That's a GID indicator! A boy who likes playing house and taking care of baby dolls? Yep, GID indicator. Girls who like to roughhouse and boys who don't, boys who like make-up or fingernail polish and girls who don't, any of this stuff counts as an "indicator" of GID.

Which, as you can see, is complete and unmitigated bullshit.

This, from Jord's link, shocked and disgusted me:

His mother was being prompted, through the earphones, by the doctor. She was told to completely ignore him, because he was engaged in feminine play. Kraig would have no understanding of what was happening to his mother. On one such occasion, his distress was such that he began to scream, but his mother just looked away. His anxiety increased, and he did whatever he could to get her to respond to him, but she just looked away. She must have seemed like a stranger to have changed her behavior toward him so suddenly and for no apparent reason . . . He was described as being in a panic, alternating between sobs and "aggressing at her," but again, when his distraught mother finally looked at him and began to respond, she stopped mid-sentence and abruptly turned away, as if he were not there. Kraig became so hysterical, and his mother so uncomfortable, that one of the clinicians had to enter and take Kraig, screaming, from the room.

Kraig's treatment continued in this vein. He was also put on the "token system" at home. Inappropriate, feminine behaviors earned him a red token, masculine ones, a blue token. Each red token earned him a spanking from his father. After more than two years of treatment, Kraig's behavior had turned around. He was now described by his mother as a "rough neck," and he no longer cared if his hair was neat or his clothes matched. But when he was eighteen, after years of being held up (under a pseudonym) by Rekers as "the poster boy for behavioral treatment of boyhood effeminacy," Kraig attempted suicide, because he thought that he might be gay.

This, from Jord's link, shocked and disgusted me:

That's truly the definition of fucked up.

That's truly the definition of fucked up.

Kind of amazing how much effort people must put into forcing children to obey "natural" gender roles, huh?

Kind of amazing how much effort people must put into forcing children to obey "natural" gender roles, huh?

It's ridiculas to even think that there are "natural" gender roles.

It's ridiculas to even think that there are "natural" gender roles.
But but but but girls are just naturally NURTURING! That's why they just naturally want dolls! And boys are just naturally AGGRESSIVE, which is why boys never ever want dolls and shut up GI Joes are action figures which is totally and completely different!

But but but but girls are just naturally NURTURING! That's why they just naturally want dolls! And boys are just naturally AGGRESSIVE, which is why boys never ever want dolls and shut up GI Joes are action figures which is totally and completely different!

Oh, totally.

No boy could ever want to play with a doll. That's like a girl playing football or wanting to be Prime Minister.

Kind of amazing how much effort people must put into forcing children to obey "natural" gender roles, huh?

Hopefully we will outgrow this soon. Remember - up till only 50 years ago lefthanded people were forced to "be normal". Smacked on their hands repeatedly with rulers at any infraction.

Almost unheard of nowadays. With some luck boys will be able to play with all the pink dolls they want without anybody caring in another few decades.

Hopefully we will outgrow this soon. Remember - up till only 50 years ago lefthanded people were forced to "be normal". Smacked on their hands repeatedly with rulers at any infraction.

Almost unheard of nowadays. With some luck boys will be able to play with all the pink dolls they want without anybody caring in another few decades.

My school made me write with my right even though I was left handed.

Hopefully we will outgrow this soon. Remember - up till only 50 years ago lefthanded people were forced to "be normal". Smacked on their hands repeatedly with rulers at any infraction.

Almost unheard of nowadays. With some luck boys will be able to play with all the pink dolls they want without anybody caring in another few decades.
I dunno. There has been a revolting explosion of pink in recent years, to the point where pretty much every product on the market also now has a pink version For Girls (because obviously girls aren't people like everyone else, so they need special for-girls versions of normal items).

Hell, did you hear about how Dell computers now have "Della," for womenz? Actually, it's mostly just the same computers being marketed to women by telling us that they come in pretty colors, they're lighter in weight so that our girly arms can lift them, and they can help us manage our diets (cause what the fuck else would we use a computer for)!

(cause what the fuck else would we use a computer for)!

Look up recipes?

*runs*

Look up recipes?

*runs*

You bastard! You made me have a minute long coughing fit.

Look up recipes?

*runs*
I'm not even kidding, that's actually part of their pitch.

With a Della(tm) computer, womenz can "find recipes online, store and organize them, and watch cooking videos."

I'm not even kidding, that's actually part of their pitch.

With a Della(tm) computer, womenz can "find recipes online, store and organize them, and watch cooking videos."

That's actually kind of sad. :(

I'm not even kidding, that's actually part of their pitch.

With a Della(tm) computer, womenz can "find recipes online, store and organize them, and watch cooking videos."

Seriously!? Link, please. I've got to see this.

I dunno. There has been a revolting explosion of pink in recent years, to the point where pretty much every product on the market also now has a pink version For Girls (because obviously girls aren't people like everyone else, so they need special for-girls versions of normal items).

Hell, did you hear about how Dell computers now have "Della," for womenz? Actually, it's mostly just the same computers being marketed to women by telling us that they come in pretty colors, they're lighter in weight so that our girly arms can lift them, and they can help us manage our diets (cause what the fuck else would we use a computer for)!

This makes my brain hurt.

The worst part is that I would probably quite like a pretty-colored, lightweight computer. And then I would use it for playing video games where I beat the crap out of things with a big fucking sword. :p

That's actually kind of sad. :(
Dell's idea of "tech tips" for women include:

"Eat better: Find recipes online, store and organize them, and watch cooking videos."

"Get moving: Tools like Gyminee help you track workouts and reach your fitness goals."

"Get organized: Sites like lifeorganizers.com give you tips on everything from organizing your home office to planning your next vacation."

They also helpfully let us know that smaller laptops are lighter, that laptops can connect to the internet (note: this is a tip ON THE DELL WEBSITE), and that laptops can play music.

Which aren't necessarily bad suggestions, but like, TECH tips? Can you imagine if Dell's main page offered that kind of "tech" information to all customers, or if Dell started a men's site where dudes were patiently informed that they can even play MP3s on their new LaptopBro?

Dell's idea of "tech tips" for women include:

"Eat better: Find recipes online, store and organize them, and watch cooking videos."

"Get moving: Tools like Gyminee help you track workouts and reach your fitness goals."

They also helpfully let us know that smaller laptops are lighter, that laptops can connect to the internet (note: this is a tip ON THE DELL WEBSITE), and that laptops can play music.

Ok, keep in mind, Dell is a computer company. It's filled with male nerds.

I believe the advertising stands explained.

Dell's idea of "tech tips" for women include:

"Eat better: Find recipes online, store and organize them, and watch cooking videos."

"Get moving: Tools like Gyminee help you track workouts and reach your fitness goals."

"Get organized: Sites like lifeorganizers.com give you tips on everything from organizing your home office to planning your next vacation."

They also helpfully let us know that smaller laptops are lighter, that laptops can connect to the internet (note: this is a tip ON THE DELL WEBSITE), and that laptops can play music.

Which aren't necessarily bad suggestions, but like, TECH tips? Can you imagine if Dell's main page offered that kind of "tech" information to all customers, or if Dell started a men's site where dudes were patiently informed that they can even play MP3s on their new LaptopBro?

What century are we living in? :rolleyes:

Ok, keep in mind, Dell is a computer company. It's filled with male nerds.

I believe the advertising stands explained.
Yeah, and? My whole point is that I don't know that we actually are moving past the sexism and gender roles that are at the root of a lot of trans problems. If anything it seems like there's even more of that shit going on now, due in large part to the way that companies and advertisers are working so hard to create new markets for themselves.

Ok, keep in mind, Dell is a computer company. It's filled with male nerds.

I believe the advertising stands explained.

I rather suspect Dell also features female nerds, although they may be resigning in despair around now. This sounds like much more the fault of Those Morons In Marketing than the company geeks, to be honest.

Ok, keep in mind, Dell is a computer company. It's filled with male nerds.

I believe the advertising stands explained.

I rather like nerds.

I dunno. There has been a revolting explosion of pink in recent years, to the point where pretty much every product on the market also now has a pink version For Girls (because obviously girls aren't people like everyone else, so they need special for-girls versions of normal items).
Anyone else remember the Talkboy range of stuff? They were basically tape players with microphones attached that got serious product placement in Home Alone. Once Talkboy got sufficiently popular ads for Talkgirl started appearing. Same thing, but pink.

Hell, did you hear about how Dell computers now have "Della," for womenz? Actually, it's mostly just the same computers being marketed to women by telling us that they come in pretty colors, they're lighter in weight so that our girly arms can lift them, and they can help us manage our diets (cause what the fuck else would we use a computer for)!
Housecleaning tips?
That's actually kind of sad. :(
Yeah, sounds like something the 50s would have invented, if they had laptops and the internet back then.

I rather suspect Dell also features female nerds, although they may be resigning in despair around now. This sounds like much more the fault of Those Morons In Marketing than the company geeks, to be honest.
According to Dell's website, about a third of their workforce is women.

According to Dell's website, about a third of their workforce is women.

Cleaners, kitchen staff, ect.

I rather suspect Dell also features female nerds, although they may be resigning in despair around now. This sounds like much more the fault of Those Morons In Marketing than the company geeks, to be honest.

Perhaps this happened:


http://pm.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/dilbertsmall.jpg

Yeah, and? My whole point is that I don't know that we actually are moving past the sexism and gender roles that are at the root of a lot of trans problems. If anything it seems like there's even more of that shit going on now, due in large part to the way that companies and advertisers are working so hard to create new markets for themselves.

I don't even mind the "Della" quite so much, since it's aimed at adults, and I'm a big girl who is quite capable of telling Dell where they can stick their marketing strategy. I always get a little depressed when I pass the toy section of Wal-Mart and get blinded by the inevitable AISLE OF PINKNESS in which all the "girl" toys are located, though.

I don't even mind the "Della" quite so much, since it's aimed at adults, and I'm a big girl who is quite capable of telling Dell where they can stick their marketing strategy. I always get a little depressed when I pass the toy section of Wal-Mart and get blinded by the inevitable AISLE OF PINKNESS in which all the "girl" toys are located, though.

The last time I was in a toy store(relatively recently) the ailse were split up into several 'boy' aisles featuring manly legos and action figures from Pirates of the Carribean Something Or Other. The 'girl' aisles were all various shades of pink with Barbies out the arse.

Though oddly they had very little of what I was looking for. Swords. Weridos.

Anyone else remember the Talkboy range of stuff? They were basically tape players with microphones attached that got serious product placement in Home Alone. Once Talkboy got sufficiently popular ads for Talkgirl started appearing. Same thing, but pink.

Yeah, not saying it didn't used to happen, but now it's a given for EVERYTHING. Any product that sells will soon have a Pinkified version For Teh Ladies.

Nothing wrong with adding new colors of something, of course, but check the price tags before you buy. I was amused to notice, for example, that Degree offers a men's deodorant and a women's deodorant that have the same smell and same ingredients listed, and which cost precisely the same...and if you hold the women's product up next to the men's product you will notice that the women's product is about 2/3rds the size of the men's.

Which, to get somewhat back on topic, relates to the GID indicators among kids. Personally, I find most "girl toys" unappealing, whether they be children's toys or grown up toys. They're usually of poorer quality or are smaller or are stupid colors or sparkle. I can't blame any child, male or female, for regarding "girl stuff" as stupid, weak, or annoying, because I sure do, and I'm a fully-grown female adult. If all the lady-parts and lady-hormone I've got can't magically make me conform to what womenz are supposed to like, then why should it be any surprise if a 5 year old girl takes one look at the pinkified isle at the toy store and runs screaming in the other direction?

Cleaners, kitchen staff, ect.
Not really. Their food court and janitorial services are outsourced to other companies.

I know at least 30 women employed at the local Dell call center, all of them in tech support for corporations.

Not really. Their food court and janitorial services are outsourced to other companies.

I know at least 30 women employed at the local Dell call center, all of them in tech support for corporations.

I wasn't serious.

I wasn't serious.

Can't tell anymore. You say stupid shit all the time.

What century are we living in? :rolleyes:

Century? My civics teacher showed me a magazine article for his sociology class. It was from the fifties and was tottally sexist. If was about how to be a good wife and the one line I remember was "no matter how much you want to speak to your husband when he gets home let him talk first because what he has to say is more important."

Can't tell anymore. You say stupid shit all the time.

That's cos I'm a stupid shit.

Century? My civics teacher showed me a magazine article for his sociology class. It was from the fifties and was tottally sexist. If was about how to be a good wife and the one line I remember was "no matter how much you want to speak to your husband when he gets home let him talk first because what he has to say is more important."

ffs_

That's cos I'm a stupid shit.
I didn't say that. :p

Century? My civics teacher showed me a magazine article for his sociology class. It was from the fifties and was tottally sexist. If was about how to be a good wife and the one line I remember was "no matter how much you want to speak to your husband when he gets home let him talk first because what he has to say is more important."

*cough*

That was last century, you know.

Which, to get somewhat back on topic, relates to the GID indicators among kids. Personally, I find most "girl toys" unappealing, whether they be children's toys or grown up toys. They're usually of poorer quality or are smaller or are stupid colors or sparkle. I can't blame any child, male or female, for regarding "girl stuff" as stupid, weak, or annoying, because I sure do, and I'm a fully-grown female adult. If all the lady-parts and lady-hormone I've got can't magically make me conform to what womenz are supposed to like, then why should it be any surprise if a 5 year old girl takes one look at the pinkified isle at the toy store and runs screaming in the other direction?

Indeed. I mean, I've always been quite happy with my female-ness, but I found quite a lot of "girl" toys stupid, and tended to prefer things like Legos. (I did have a collection of Barbies, but I remember some of the stories I played with them, and while they involved the Barbies pursuing and beating up criminals, curing cancer, starring on Broadway, and defeating nefarious plots to take over the world, I do not believe they even once involved the Barbies going on dates, getting married, or doing any of the things Barbies seem to do in commercials, which commercials I found rather baffling. They also spent pretty much all their time naked, and were never seen in the company of men, seeing as I thought the Ken dolls looked stupid. Do lesbian nudist colonies of crime-fighting cancer researchers sound all that gender-normative? :tongue: )

I didn't say that. :p

But you were all thinking it. :D

Do lesbian nudist colonies of crime-fighting cancer researchers sound all that gender-normative? :tongue: )

No, but they do sound like lots and lots of fun.

Century? My civics teacher showed me a magazine article for his sociology class. It was from the fifties and was tottally sexist. If was about how to be a good wife and the one line I remember was "no matter how much you want to speak to your husband when he gets home let him talk first because what he has to say is more important."

That thing came from feminists. You need to learn to source better.

I think that this will be a great learning experience for her, and most importantly I hope for one thing beyond any other thing. I hope that she doesn't feel forced to stay down this path. When we're young, we think and feel a lot of different things. Many trans people do know when they're young and that feeling doesn't go away. Many cisgender (not trans) people also have similar feelings that recede or develop further in a different way. I know that if she feels 'pressured' to stay as she is, then she won't be happy about it. :(

I hope it's a great learning experience for her classmates and teachers as well. If they get used to the idea that some people are transgender early on (even if she later decides that it was a phase or whatever), they'll be less likely to adopt the bigoted viewpoint that is so common in their parents' generation.

*cough*

That was last century, you know.

Damn. I keep forgetting that.

I don't even mind the "Della" quite so much, since it's aimed at adults, and I'm a big girl who is quite capable of telling Dell where they can stick their marketing strategy. I always get a little depressed when I pass the toy section of Wal-Mart and get blinded by the inevitable AISLE OF PINKNESS in which all the "girl" toys are located, though.

This is why it's better to shop for geeky kid's toys like microscopes and science kits. *nodnod*

(although, based on what we've just heard of Dell, there's probably pinkified versions of those too - I just didn't see them when I was looking).

Damn. I keep forgetting that.

That's understanderble, I mean it's only..what? 9 and a half years?

when I was 8 I wanted to be a power ranger so I feel this child's pain :(

I'd still like to be a Power Ranger. :p

It would be nice if society could become accepting... of girls that like fast cars and weapons instead of just shoving those people into the "weirdo" category.To point out, guys do not have a problem with such girls.

I'm not sure (but I seriously doubt) this subject has been brought up, but it's one that's been on my mind for a while.

Is the concept of transsexuality consist with feminism?

To be more specific, a large part of second-wave feminism, and third-wave feminism as well, is the concept that gender-related characteristics are completely or mostly socially constructed. That is, a person's gender -- whether one is "masculine" or "feminine" -- is something that develops as a result of social conditioning, independent of a person's biological sex, either completely or for the most part.

But in the case of transsexuals, these individuals claim that they have a feminine or a masculine "essence", as I've heard it referred to, that can only be corrected by changing one's biological sex. They display gendered characteristics, masculine ones in the case of trans-females, and feminine ones in the case of trans-males, that they feel are naturally tied to a specific biological sex.

Which brings me back to my question: is this compatible with feminist notions about the social construction of gender? And if not, does the existence of transsexuals dissprove such a notion?

(NOTE: I am specifically referring to the numerous feminists and feminist sub-groups which view gender as being entirely or mostly the product of social construction. However, I do acknowledge that there are feminists who believe in the existence of a gendered "essence" being tied to one's biological sex).

You haven't stated why you think the pronouns refer only to genotype and ignore gender.
I have. Scroll some posts above (I think my second post in this thread).


And an analogous question: if someone you know dyed their hair, would you continue to refer to their hair only as the original colour?
Yes. As ID do. Or, to be even more accurate, I use expressions like "a blonde-dyed brunette".

I'd still like to be a Power Ranger. :p

If you'd like to be the pink one, you're gay. ;)

I'm not sure (but I seriously doubt) this subject has been brought up, but it's one that's been on my mind for a while.

Is the concept of transsexuality consist with feminism?

To be more specific, a large part of second-wave feminism, and third-wave feminism as well, is the concept that gender-related characteristics are completely or mostly socially constructed. That is, a person's gender -- whether one is "masculine" or "feminine" -- is something that develops as a result of social conditioning, independent of a person's biological sex, either completely or for the most part.

But in the case of transsexuals, these individuals claim that they have a feminine or a masculine "essence", as I've heard it referred to, that can only be corrected by changing one's biological sex. They display gendered characteristics, masculine ones in the case of trans-females, and feminine ones in the case of trans-males, that they feel are naturally tied to a specific biological sex.

Which brings me back to my question: is this compatible with feminist notions about the social construction of gender? And if not, does the existence of transsexuals dissprove such a notion?

(NOTE: I am specifically referring to the numerous feminists and feminist sub-groups which view gender as being entirely or mostly the product of social construction. However, I do acknowledge that there are feminists who believe in the existence of a gendered "essence" being tied to one's biological sex).

This is a pretty simple question. The second-third wave feminists who believe gender to be entirely socially constructed are wrong. Like 'the sky is bright brown' wrong. There's really nothing more to be said about their viewpoint. Maybe they want it to be that way, but there's no evidence that it is. The only time they have a point is when they talk about peoples hobbies/personalities being artificially gendered. There's no reason someone is a girl BECAUSE they like pink, there's no reason someone is a boy BECAUSE they like boxing. This is obvious.

You've also got the terminology backwards. 'trans women' refers to people born with male biology that do not feel comfortable with it and take steps to change it. 'Trans men' refers to people with female biology that do not feel comfortable with it. This is of course a generalisation. plenty of either group do not take any surgical or hormonal treatment but simply identify as trans and feel that the other gender more accurately encompasses them in some way. Being as we're human and not machines, the 'it just feels right/wrong' argument comes up and is from my viewpoint, perfectly valid.

You're also incorrect in believing that trans women are typically feminine upon transition and that trans men are typically male upon transition. Many are. Many are not. We see through, largely, the 'you can't work with computers, you're a girl!' or 'you can't have nice hair, GUYS DO NOT CARE ABOUT THAT' approach and bloody well work on them, or have it anyway, as thankfully that kind of thinking is being rightfully ignored more and more by -everybody-.

And you'd be insane to believe that this subject hasn't been discussed -to death-, usually by cisgender 'feminists' telling us that we don't qualify as 'real' women and so we can be excluded from whatever they want us to be excluded from because they're the ultimate arbiters. I'm unsure from what perspective it gets discussed at (not to, that implies some equality beyond cis people telling us what we are) trans men because I'm not one.

I hope that helped your curiosity. :)

I'd still like to be a Power Ranger. :p

If you still use that hat and that tail, I'll love you as a kitty Power Ranger.:tongue:

I have. Scroll some posts above (I think my second post in this thread).

You said this:

Also, the choice of pronouns isn't determined by individuals' choices. It is determined by grammar - which has to be kept as per standard if we want to continue understanding each other.

Asking for consistency, but with no indication of why genotype would be more important than gender in defining these pronouns.

And this:

2.I wonder why many people focus on form (like grammatical genders) instead than focusing on essence.

'Essence'? Who are you to decide that? In fact, when Jordaxia replied with this, you entirely evaded the point. You seem to be claiming you know better than the person does about their 'essence'. If essence is only defined in genotype, then what about those with chromosome deformities? are these non-persons? And still, you fail to define what 'essence' really is, or why you'd define it that way.

It is possible to be declared legally the opposite gender than your genotype or genitals, even for pre-op transsexuals, as was the case with a legal man in American naturally giving birth last year.

Asking for consistency, but with no indication of why genotype would be more important than gender in defining these pronouns.
Hello? Biology? Isn't that enough to you?
In English, the masculine grammatical gender is for male individuals. The feminine grammatical gender is for female individuals.
Since sex is polarized between male and female (with some exceptions, like XYY or XXX genotypes), just as grammatical gender (for animated beings) is polarized between masculine and feminine, it is clearer (simpler, more understandable) to use masculine gender for biologically males and feminine gender for biologically females.

Of course, the English grammar could be rewritten to link grammatical gender to sexual orientations/gender identity etc. How many grammatical genders would one need then?


'Essence'? Who are you to decide that? In fact, when Jordaxia replied with this, you entirely evaded the point. You seem to be claiming you know better than the person does about their 'essence'.
I wasn't speaking of the person's essence. I was speaking about the essence of the problem known as transgenderism - I thought it was clear in my post.
The use of a specifical grammatical gender and not of another is a formal problem in transgenderism. The suffering of a transgender person is an essential problem of transgenderism.


...as was the case with a legal man in American naturally giving birth last year.
Exactly. The "legal man" was biologically a female individual. Genotype, again.


Btw, by Italian law only post-op is recognised. Take the case of crossgender Vladimiro Guadagno, alias Vladimir Luxuria, who's been an MP in 2006-2008. He's pre-op and he's considered legally to be a male, though he dresses and behaves as a woman.

Btw, by Italian law only post-op is recognised. Take the case of crossgender Vladimiro Guadagno, alias Vladimir Luxuria, who's been an MP in 2006-2008. He's pre-op and he's considered legally to be a male, though he dresses and behaves as a woman.

But what about the way the person feels? If a person genetically born as a male feels as a woman, but hasn't had a sex change operation dresses as a woman and acts like one, wouldn't it be considerate to address this person as a 'her', regardless of genitalia? This person feels like a woman after all.

Hello? Biology? Isn't that enough to you?

Allow me to state this emphatically. Hell No.


In English, the masculine grammatical gender is for male individuals. The feminine grammatical gender is for female individuals.


Astute.


Since sex is polarized between male and female (with some exceptions, like XYY or XXX genotypes), just as grammatical gender (for animated beings) is polarized between masculine and feminine, it is clearer (simpler, more understandable) to use masculine gender for biologically males and feminine gender for biologically females.


It is clearer, simpler, and more understandable to me to use the masculine gender for people who identify with it and the feminine gender for people who identify with it. Every time you come back to this post you further reveal that you do not consider trans men or women to be 'real' examples of their gender. Simple bigotry.


Of course, the English grammar could be rewritten to link grammatical gender to sexual orientations/gender identity etc. How many grammatical genders would one need then?


it could be indeed. But gay/bi people don't seem to want different pronouns, and neither do the vast majority of trans people. So that would seem to me un-necessary.



I wasn't speaking of the person's essence. I was speaking about the essence of the problem known as transgenderism - I thought it was clear in my post.
The use of a specifical grammatical gender and not of another is a formal problem in transgenderism. The suffering of a transgender person is an essential problem of transgenderism.

eh?



Btw, by Italian law only post-op is recognised. Take the case of crossgender Vladimiro Guadagno, alias Vladimir Luxuria, who's been an MP in 2006-2008. He's pre-op and he's considered legally to be a male, though he dresses and behaves as a woman.

the law can go frak itself.

This is a pretty simple question. The second-third wave feminists who believe gender to be entirely socially constructed are wrong. Like 'the sky is bright brown' wrong. There's really nothing more to be said about their viewpoint.

Haha, allow me to take the "con" position to this.

I'm one of thems that believes "the sky is bright brown." I do believe that gender is a social construct that only tangentially relates to the biological realities of our species. This isn't some casual notion I've decided to parrot as part of The Great Feminist Conspiracy, either; it's drawn directly from my personal experiences as a non-gender-conforming person, and also from my studies in psychology and neuroscience.

I understand why some transpeople disagree with me, of course. But it is incorrect to present this case as if all transpeople do. Transpeople, like feminists, often disagree on subjects like this one.


Maybe they want it to be that way, but there's no evidence that it is.

There is ample evidence that the vast majority of what we perceive as "gender" is not biologically grounded. Or, at least, not related to biological sex. Most everything we humans do can be in some way linked to our gloriously mooshy biological systems, after all, but that's almost never the end of the story for any complex behaviors. Our individual physical bodies give us slightly different individual starting points, but our cultural and physical environments play a tremendous part in shaping us.

The most simple evidence for this is, of course, the fact that I don't think you (or anybody) can name a single "gendered" trait which is universally shared by all individuals of that gender.

I also don't think there's a single trait that is universally defined as being "masculine" or "feminine," because there's always some tribe or civilization which just doesn't match up to what everyone else is doing. If gender were objective, that wouldn't occur.


The only time they have a point is when they talk about peoples hobbies/personalities being artificially gendered. There's no reason someone is a girl BECAUSE they like pink, there's no reason someone is a boy BECAUSE they like boxing. This is obvious.


Usually the argument is the reverse; girls like pink because they're girls, boys like boxing because they're boys. General feminist theory is that PEOPLE have a range of preferences which, if allowed to simply be what they are, will typically not correlate with biological sex.


You've also got the terminology backwards. 'trans women' refers to people born with male biology that do not feel comfortable with it and take steps to change it. 'Trans men' refers to people with female biology that do not feel comfortable with it. This is of course a generalisation. plenty of either group do not take any surgical or hormonal treatment but simply identify as trans and feel that the other gender more accurately encompasses them in some way. Being as we're human and not machines, the 'it just feels right/wrong' argument comes up and is from my viewpoint, perfectly valid.

Generally speaking, I'd agree with this. Humans have been modifying our bodies for our own entertainment and happiness for...well, pretty much forever...so I don't see transpeople as anything particularly shocking.

Hell, just think about all the modifications that cis-gendered women are expected to undergo in order to be "naturally feminine!" We're supposed to remove our naturally-occurring body hair, alter our naturally-occurring skin pigments, coat our head-hair with styling products to alter its natural appearance, wear shoes which drastically alter our natural posture and gait, and the list goes on and on. A compelling argument could be made that cisgendered people alter their bodies significantly in order to conform to their own gender, so why bitch when trans people do likewise?


You're also incorrect in believing that trans women are typically feminine upon transition and that trans men are typically male upon transition. Many are. Many are not. We see through, largely, the 'you can't work with computers, you're a girl!' or 'you can't have nice hair, GUYS DO NOT CARE ABOUT THAT' approach and bloody well work on them, or have it anyway, as thankfully that kind of thinking is being rightfully ignored more and more by -everybody-.

True. Though I think you'd be making a mistake if you ignore the fact that a lot of transpeople do tend to "compensate" by being especially overtly gendered. I think that is where a lot of the public perception comes from.


And you'd be insane to believe that this subject hasn't been discussed -to death-, usually by cisgender 'feminists' telling us that we don't qualify as 'real' women and so we can be excluded from whatever they want us to be excluded from because they're the ultimate arbiters.

Also true, and I want to thank you for putting "feminists" in scare quotes, because gender-essentialists are (at least in my opinion) typically not very feminist when you really start looking at their core beliefs. Having a female body means you are of the female sex, but it provides fuckall information about a person's gender, because gender is a set of roles and expectations and behaviors that people may or may not conform to regardless of their physical sex, and I've never in my entire life met a single person who conforms precisely to one gender.

Having a female body also doesn't remotely equate to being feminist or being an ally of feminists, so it's pretty stupid to say that having a "real" vagina is a membership card to the Sisterhood.


I'm unsure from what perspective it gets discussed at (not to, that implies some equality beyond cis people telling us what we are) trans men because I'm not one.

Transmen tend to be in an even weirder position, because a lot of them started out as born-female feminists yet they want to transition to being men. Obviously this can cause some raised eyebrows, because a feminist woman wanting to become a man is one of the oldest and most insulting myths that anti-feminists have been throwing around for centuries. Which isn't fair to transmen, of course, but it's also understandable for feminists to feel twitchy around the subject.

This all is, at the end of the day, a divide-and-conquer kind of deal, where feminists and transpeople are set against one another by a culture that is actually fucking us all over.

Allow me to state this emphatically. Hell No.

You're welcome.


It is clearer, simpler, and more understandable to me to use the masculine gender for people who identify with it and the feminine gender for people who identify with it. Every time you come back to this post you further reveal that you do not consider trans men or women to be 'real' examples of their gender. Simple bigotry.
You don't consider that people can be of more gender/sexual orientations than just "male" and "female". There is a vast majority of homosexual men who think of themselves as males, while not feeling sexually attracted by females as the the "standard" behaviour of males would predict. Etc etc.
You seem to be looking at the problem of genderness from your own perspective only. This behaviour of yours is bigotry.

By the way, I've never used the term "real". You are doing that. I do not consider a transgender person as behaving as the standard of his or her own sex would suggest. Do you consider it otherwise?



it could be indeed. But gay/bi people don't seem to want different pronouns, and neither do the vast majority of trans people. So that would seem to me un-necessary.

So, wasn't I right in saying that the grammatical part of the problem is not essential?

the law can go frak itself.
The law is paramount.

By the way, just to show you that I really don't care about unessential questions like "which grammatical gender is more appropriated" in the transgenderism issue, I'll just stop using any kind of pronoun and use demonstratives instead, like in "this person", "that person". Happy with that?

You don't consider that people can be of more gender/sexual orientations than just "male" and "female".

Since when is 'male' a sexual orientation?



There is a vast majority of homosexual men who think of themselves as males, while not feeling sexually attracted by females as the the "standard" behaviour of males would predict. Etc etc.
You seem to be looking at the problem of genderness from your own perspective only. This behaviour of yours is bigotry.

No it isn't. If a homosexual male is happy identifying as a male, they are a male. There is no need to make a new gender and set of pronouns for them.


By the way, I've never used the term "real". You are doing that. I do not consider a transgender person as behaving as the standard of his or her own sex would suggest. Do you consider it otherwise?

If you do not consider a trans woman a woman then you do not consider them real examples of their -gender-.



So, wasn't I right in saying that the grammatical part of the problem is not essential?

I don't really specialise in correct use of the english language. I don't know what you're trying to prove here.


The law is paramount.

The law is made to serve the people. If it does not, it is in need of change. People are not made to serve laws. The law is nothing when it is unjust.


Bottle: I've stuff to say about what you said which is nowhere near as emotive as this guy is making me. I'd like to have a constructive discussion but I've been rampaging around this thread and threads like it for days now and me and my high horse are getting frakking tired, so I'm taking a time out to recuperate by blowing up zombies.

Bottle: I've stuff to say about what you said which is nowhere near as emotive as this guy is making me. I'd like to have a constructive discussion but I've been rampaging around this thread and threads like it for days now and me and my high horse are getting frakking tired, so I'm taking a time out to recuperate by blowing up zombies.

Jordi, you're not required to justify yourself to anyone. I know you're trying to let others understand what transgenders go through, and that's comendable. Unfortunately humans have a long way to go. Don't let the views of others take the steam off your sails. You're wonderful.;)

In English, the masculine grammatical gender is for male individuals. The feminine grammatical gender is for female individuals.
Since sex is polarized between male and female (with some exceptions, like XYY or XXX genotypes), just as grammatical gender (for animated beings) is polarized between masculine and feminine, it is clearer (simpler, more understandable) to use masculine gender for biologically males and feminine gender for biologically females.

Of course, the English grammar could be rewritten to link grammatical gender to sexual orientations/gender identity etc. How many grammatical genders would one need then?

Again, you don't explain why grammar must refer to biology and not self-identity. As grammatical genders are used for referring to people and not just a description of them, I think they will always decide how they will be addressed. Biology is irrelevant.


I wasn't speaking of the person's essence. I was speaking about the essence of the problem known as transgenderism - I thought it was clear in my post.
The use of a specifical grammatical gender and not of another is a formal problem in transgenderism. The suffering of a transgender person is an essential problem of transgenderism.

I don't think anyone's claiming there isn't a problem in transgenderism as a whole, we're claiming that by strictly using grammar based on their genotype rather than what they want to be called, you are creating an additional problem.

Exactly. The "legal man" was biologically a female individual. Genotype, again.

Futile repetition.

Again, you don't explain why grammar must refer to biology and not self-identity. As grammatical genders are used for referring to people and not just a description of them, I think they will always decide how they will be addressed. Biology is irrelevant.

Exactly. Biology has nothing to do with self-identity. If a person biologically born as a man feels like a woman and wants to be addressed has a 'she', biology is irrelevant. This person is a woman, by self-identity so I will adress this person as she or her. It's what she wants.

Jordi, you're not required to justify yourself to anyone. I know you're trying to let others understand what transgenders go through, and that's comendable. Unfortunately humans have a long way to go. Don't let the views of others take the steam off your sails. You're wonderful.;)

There's more to me than this but I feel so compelled to spend my time fighting it, like something I can't really drop. I couldn't even enjoy my game properly. >>

There's more to me than this but I feel so compelled to spend my time fighting it, like something I can't really drop. I couldn't even enjoy my game properly. >>

I understand that. I'm slowly reading through this site. It's a series of essays writen by a professor who's a transgender.

http://www.genderpsychology.org/

These essays are especially interesting.
http://www.genderpsychology.org/transgender/index.html

The child in question started exhibiting her preferences since she was 2 or 3 years of age. I don't think she's confused. She feels like a girl. Let her be.

The child is and always will be biologically male and was born as such. So therefore the 'she' you're referring to is a 'he'.

It refers to things, this child isn't a thing. And chalking it up as a testosterone deficiency doesn't roll. What if this child feels she is a girl? It has nothing to do then with hormonal problems but with her identity. And this identity is that of a girl, regardless of genitalia or societal standards.

Quite frankly, I don't care about how the child feels. He was born as a male and there is no changing that. Even if the child was to have a sex change and look and behave like a female, he would never be able to truly be a woman, just a mutilated male. He would be unable to have children and experience menstruation like a biological woman can.

Quite frankly, I don't care about how the child feels. He was born as a male and there is no changing that. Even if the child was to have a sex change and look and behave like a female, he would never be able to truly be a woman, just a mutilated male. He would be unable to have children and experience menstruation like a biological woman can.

But he/she would be happy.

Quite frankly, I don't care about how the child feels. He was born as a male and there is no changing that. Even if the child was to have a sex change and look and behave like a female, he would never be able to truly be a woman, just a mutilated male. He would be unable to have children and experience menstruation like a biological woman can.

ahahahaha! Really? the oldest frakking canard out there? Alright, alright, I've stopped laughing for about 5 seconds.

Are you seriously, really, for all out truth saying that any woman who -cannot menstruate or give birth- is not a woman?

*snorts* now you've got me laughing again.

Are you seriously, really, for all out truth saying that any woman who -cannot menstruate or give birth- is not a woman?

It's like saying sterile people are immoral when they have sex because they won't produce kids.

The child is and always will be biologically male and was born as such. So therefore the 'she' you're referring to is a 'he'.



Quite frankly, I don't care about how the child feels. He was born as a male and there is no changing that. Even if the child was to have a sex change and look and behave like a female, he would never be able to truly be a woman, just a mutilated male. He would be unable to have children and experience menstruation like a biological woman can.

...so, wait, women who don't have kids or menstruate are not TRULY women? What the hell are they, then?

Are you seriously, really, for all out truth saying that any woman who -cannot menstruate or give birth- is not a woman

No, but the key difference is that all females have the necessary body parts for pregnacy, such as ovaries and a uterus, where as males do not. The fact that the child is biologically a male is not up for debate.

No, but the key difference is that all females have the necessary body parts for pregnacy, such as ovaries and a uterus, where as males do not. The fact that the child is biologically a male is not up for debate.

The fact that that matters even a jot is. Also, have you knowledge of the childs chromosomes?

No, but the key difference is that all females have the necessary body parts for pregnacy, such as ovaries and a uterus, where as males do not.

What about a female born without ovaries?

No, but the key difference is that all females have the necessary body parts for pregnacy, such as ovaries and a uterus

No, they don't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterectomy

I ask you again, if a woman without a uterus is not a woman, what the hell is she?

It's like saying sterile people are immoral when they have sex because they won't produce kids.

I thought catholics did say that.

No, they don't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysterectomy

I ask you again, if a woman without a uterus is not a woman, what the hell is she?

She is still biologically a woman. Your link proved nothing because hysterectomy is the removal of the uterus. Which females are born with. That is merely an alteration of the body and not a natural occurance.

She is still biologically a woman. Your link proved nothing because hysterectomy is the removal of the uterus. Which females are born with.

Ah, so now it's no longer what parts you HAVE but what parts you were BORN WITH. So, then, someone born with ambiguous genitalia is both genders? Or neither?

Ah, so now it's no longer what parts you HAVE but what parts you were BORN WITH. So, then, someone born with ambiguous genitalia is both genders? Or neither?

If both genitalia are present then sex is determined by chromosomes.

If both genitalia are present then sex is determined by chromosomes.

Ah, so you admit that your original argument that you can't really be a woman if you don't have a uterus is bullshit, and fall back on chromosomes. So what's an XXY person, then?

I hate people who think those who have had sex changes are not their new sex.

If both genitalia are present then sex is determined by chromosomes.

What? Do you have a clue what you're talking about?

If both genitalia are present then sex is determined by chromosomes.

Pretty amateurish distraction really. Genitalia, chromosomes, all irrelevant.

What's important is you think you have the right to tell her, or anyone like her, what sex they are. External physical biology is irrelevant. Doesn't mean squat compared to what's in the persons mind. Because here's a weird thing. the mind has a say in this matter. and if she has the mind of a girl, then that's what she is. Nothing you can do about that.

Pretty amateurish distraction really. Genitalia, chromosomes, all irrelevant.

The cute thing, though, is that his argument started out as defining women through some sort of "female experience." You weren't REALLY a woman unless you did girl-things like menstruate and give birth. When it was pointed out that many women don't do those things, you just had to be CAPABLE of menstruating and giving birth. When that still didn't fit, you had to be BORN WITH PARTS THAT COULD RENDER YOU CAPABLE of menstruating and giving birth. That still didn't work, so now the defining female experience is...chromosomes. Which not only still don't work, but are a heck of a stupid excuse for a defining experience, given that unless you've personally been blood-typed and seen the results, you can't even be certain what your chromosomes are. Suddenly, any woman who has not been confirmed as female via blood testing is not "truly" a woman.

What's important is you think you have the right to tell her, or anyone like her, what sex they are. External physical biology is irrelevant. Doesn't mean squat compared to what's in the persons mind. Because here's a weird thing. the mind has a say in this matter. and if she has the mind of a girl, then that's what she is. Nothing you can do about that.

And I argue exactly the opposite, I don't think the mind means anything. It's either you are physically a male or a female. The kid is male despite wanting to be a female and until sex change operations advance to a point where changes can be made at the molecular/genetic level (I think it might become possible with advanced nanotechnology) he will always be a male.

The child is and always will be biologically male and was born as such. So therefore the 'she' you're referring to is a 'he'.

Incorrect. If the child feels like a 'she', despite her genitalia being that of a male, you bet your bum I will refer to her as 'she'. It's her identity, not mine, and I respect that, regardless of what biology (irrelevant) may say.

Quite frankly, I don't care about how the child feels. He was born as a male and there is no changing that. Even if the child was to have a sex change and look and behave like a female, he would never be able to truly be a woman, just a mutilated male. He would be unable to have children and experience menstruation like a biological woman can.

Quite frankly, the child doesn't care about wether you care how she feels or not. Why? Because it's her life. And it's very very brave of you to say that this person is mutilated in any way. With transgenders, the only mutilation is the one they suffer from society. You disgust me.

And I argue exactly the opposite, I don't think the mind means anything. It's either you are physically a male or a female. The kid is male despite wanting to be a female and until sex change operations advance to a point where changes can be made at the molecular/genetic level (I think it might become possible with advanced nanotechnology) he will always be a male.

So...wait. The mind doesn't mean anything, and the body doesn't mean anything - just the genetics? So someone with CAIS, who looks female, feels female, has no reason to suspect they're anything but female, finds out when she's 16 that she has XY chromosomes, and we should start calling her "he"? And that makes SENSE to you?

And, again, what is an XXY person?

And, again, what is an XXY person?

That's a he/she, but calling anyone a he/she is a personal insult to anyone who isn't one.

That's a he/she, and an insult to anyone who isn't one.

How is that insulting to me?

How is that insulting to me?

You missed it.

And I argue exactly the opposite, I don't think the mind means anything. It's either you are physically a male or a female. The kid is male despite wanting to be a female and until sex change operations advance to a point where changes can be made at the molecular/genetic level (I think it might become possible with advanced nanotechnology) he will always be a male.

Then again, as I've said, it's a good thing there's nothing you and people who think like you can do about it beyond sink into irrelevance. I've only one request; sink faster.

You missed it.

ffs_

ffs_

How about you check your puppet's sig.

How about you check your puppet's sig.

What, sorry?

EDIT: OOh I see, very good.

Then again, as I've said, it's a good thing there's nothing you and people who think like you can do about it beyond sink into irrelevance. I've only one request; sink faster.

I never said I wanted to do anything about this kid, I have no problem with the child trying to look and act like a female. (and fail miserably) I only said I consider this child male because he was born as such and that sex change operations haven't advanced enough to be considered true sex changes. I am done with this topic.

I never said I wanted to do anything about this kid, I have no problem with the child trying to look and act like become a female. (and fail miserably) I only said I consider this child male because he was born as such and that sex change operations haven't advanced enough to be considered true sex changes. I am done with this topic.

Then be done with it. Nice little snarky closing comment about the childs appearance. You clearly know nothing about the issue, or you would know that you have met -plenty- of trans people without ever knowing it. But thanks for considering us all freaks. Toodles.

What, sorry?

EDIT: OOh I see, very good.

See, you should remember this stuff.

I never said I wanted to do anything about this kid, I have no problem with the child trying to look and act like become a female. (and fail miserably) I only said I consider this child male because he was born as such and that sex change operations haven't advanced enough to be considered true sex changes. I am done with this topic.

And yet, YOU stated you care nothing about how the child feels.

Quite frankly, I don't care about how the child feels. He was born as a male and there is no changing that. Even if the child was to have a sex change and look and behave like a female, he would never be able to truly be a woman, just a mutilated male. He would be unable to have children and experience menstruation like a biological woman can.

Did you not? Don't try to change it now.

I am done with this topic.

It'd be nice to see you answer the question I keep asking you first.

Then be done with it. Nice little snarky closing comment about the childs appearance. You clearly know nothing about the issue, or you would know that you have met -plenty- of trans people without ever knowing it. But thanks for considering us all freaks. Toodles.

I'm a freak?

See, you should remember this stuff.

My memory's like a sive.

See, you should remember this stuff.

You know, sometimes I make jokes that reference things months or years old.

Even then, people get it sometimes.

I'm a freak?

What are you on about?

My memory's like a sive.

You should work on that, or you're never going to get my jokes.

My memory's like a sive.

Your memorys a play?

You know, sometimes I make jokes that reference things months or years old.

Even then, people get it sometimes.

Wow, I couldn't remember that stuff.

What are you on about?
You just said we're all freaks or some shit.
Your memorys a play?



What?

What?

From the wiki: Sive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sive).

You just said we're all freaks or some shit.

No I didn't.

I have a sibling who is transgendered.

And bright, good looking and successful.

But through this connection I have discovered that there is a world of hate directed against trans people by gay guys and lesbians.

What irony! They are saying that their way of being queer is "normal" while these other folks are "unnatural".

And yet, YOU stated you care nothing about how the child feels. Did you not? Don't try to change it now.

Sorry I'm breaking my promise to be done with this thread but I had to address Nanatsu's statement.

There's a difference between me considering this child as a male and not caring about what the kid wants or does. He is not my child so I don't care what the child does. It is up to his parents to decide for him and they were too lenient in my opinion. But that is their choice.

Sorry I'm breaking my promise to be done with this thread but I had to address Nanatsu's statement.

There's a difference between me considering this child as a male and not caring about what the kid wants or does. He is not my child so I don't care what the child does. It is up to his parents to decide for him and they were too lenient in my opinion. But that is their choice.

And yet you care enough to state horrible things like the following:

Even if the child was to have a sex change and look and behave like a female, he would never be able to truly be a woman, just a mutilated male.

Who the hell are you, really, to say something like a transgendered person is a mutilated male or female? Your nerve is amazing and your ignorance even more so.

Bottle: I've stuff to say about what you said which is nowhere near as emotive as this guy is making me. I'd like to have a constructive discussion but I've been rampaging around this thread and threads like it for days now and me and my high horse are getting frakking tired, so I'm taking a time out to recuperate by blowing up zombies.
I wholeheartedly support the killing of zombies for fun, profit, or therapy. I also appreciate you being willing to even set a toenail near this discussion, because (based on your responses thus far) I'm guessing you've tread this ground before. You sound like you are no stranger to debates between feminists and transpeople, and those debates generally go somewhere very bad before they even start moving in a good direction. :P

Quite frankly, I don't care about how the child feels. He was born as a male and there is no changing that. Even if the child was to have a sex change and look and behave like a female, he would never be able to truly be a woman, just a mutilated male. He would be unable to have children and experience menstruation like a biological woman can.
Note to all women who have had hysterectomies: you are no longer women. Your inability to bleed and breed has rendered you un-woman.

So...wait. The mind doesn't mean anything, and the body doesn't mean anything - just the genetics? So someone with CAIS, who looks female, feels female, has no reason to suspect they're anything but female, finds out when she's 16 that she has XY chromosomes, and we should start calling her "he"? And that makes SENSE to you?

I went to school with an XY girl. :)

I will bet a million dollars that Saiwania would have been 100% positive that this girl was a girl. Hell, if she'd been transgender and wanted to live as a man, Saiwania would have been going off about how she'll never be a REAL man because she was born with a vagina and a uterus and having a sex change would just be mutilation.

But that's because Saiwania feels qualified to make evaluations about the biological definitions of the sexes even though he clearly knows buggerall about the SRY gene, fetal development, and the development of primary and secondary sex characteristics. In other words, he's just another yahoo who finds himself entirely too busy to educate himself, yet with more than enough time to stomp around telling everyone else how it is.

I went to school with an XY girl. :)

I will bet a million dollars that Saiwania would have been 100% positive that this girl was a girl. Hell, if she'd been transgender and wanted to live as a man, Saiwania would have been going off about how she'll never be a REAL man because she was born with a vagina and a uterus and having a sex change would just be mutilation.

But that's because Saiwania feels qualified to make evaluations about the biological definitions of the sexes even though he clearly knows buggerall about the SRY gene, fetal development, and the development of primary and secondary sex characteristics. In other words, he's just another yahoo who finds himself entirely too busy to educate himself, yet with more than enough time to stomp around telling everyone else how it is.

Oh, yeah. I forgot you mutilated chickens for a living.

I went to school with an XY girl. :)

I honestly don't know much about this, but I figure you do, so I'll ask.

Can a girl who's XY reproduce? I.e., periods, eggs, pregnancy, the whole bit?

Oh, yeah. I forgot you mutilated chickens for a living.

And you missed Bottle's point entirely.

And you missed Bottle's point entirely.

No, I didn't. I guessed that she knew about genes from cuttting up chicks.

No, I didn't. I guessed that she knew about genes from cuttting up chicks.

How about she knows about genes from going to school and uni and because she, I don't know, READS about things like that? Hm?

How about she knows about genes from going to school and uni and because she, I don't know, READS about things like that? Hm?

Could be.

I honestly don't know much about this, but I figure you do, so I'll ask.

Can a girl who's XY reproduce? I.e., periods, eggs, pregnancy, the whole bit?
XY girls don't have functional gonads. Their ovaries aren't formed correctly, so they don't have their own eggs, so they can't have genetic children of their own (yet!). They also won't go through puberty normally because they don't have ovaries to send many of the necessary signals, although we now have plenty of ways to help with that, and their bodies are able to respond to sex hormones normally.

XY women HAVE given birth, through the magic of in vitro fertilization and egg donation. An XY woman may not have ovaries, but the vagina, cervix, and uterus can be perfectly fine.

So I guess we should put it to Saiwania...what do you call a pregnant person with XY chromosomes? (Hint: the answer is not Arnold Schwarzenegger)

XY girls don't have functional gonads. Their ovaries aren't formed correctly, so they don't have their own eggs, so they can't have genetic children of their own. They also won't go through puberty normally, because they don't have ovaries to send many of the necessary signals.

However, XY women HAVE given birth, through the magic of in vitro fertilization and egg donation. An XY woman may not have ovaries, but the vagina, cervix, and uterus can be perfectly fine.

Ah that all makes sense. Thanks!

*throws down a smoke bomb in the middle of the thread, vanishes*

HDenying identity stings. it makes it feel artificial.
*Denies Jord her identity*

*gives it to ROI*

*forces Jord to become ROI*

*Denies Jord her identity*

*gives it to ROI*

*forces Jord to become ROI*

hahahaha. I'm not cut out to be RoI.

hahahaha. I'm not cut out to be RoI.

I'm the only man for the job.

hahahaha. I'm not cut out to be RoI.

That's ok, neither is he

That's ok, neither is he

Am I not?

If you'd like to be the pink one, you're gay. ;)

I always liked the Green/White Ranger from the original series.

Am I not?

Apparently not.

Apparently not.

:( I don't see how that's possible.

:( I don't see how that's possible.

Perhaps you should listen to what Lewis Black has to say on this subject.