NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30771408/
According to most recent Gallup poll.

What are the results of this shift ?
Who are these reasonable pro lifers that supposedly make up the majority of pro lifers?
Should I flee the country now ?

Should I flee the country now ?
We don't want you.;)

We don't want you.;)

Who is we?

Time to form the LIBERAL CRIME SQUAD!

Who is we?

Me at the critters running round my head.

This sounds much scarier until you get to this bit in the article:


"The terms pro-choice and pro-life no longer define the parameters of the debate, witnessed by the fact that in the Gallup Poll, a majority of people say they are both pro-life and that abortion should be legal," Richards said.

I am totally cool with a majority of people believing that they, personally, are not okay with getting an abortion, but do not believe they have the authority to make that decision for anyone else.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30771408/
According to most recent Gallup poll.

What are the results of this shift ?
Who are these reasonable pro lifers that supposedly make up the majority of pro lifers?
Should I flee the country now ?
we have a constitution for a reason. no need to flee.

we have a constitution for a reason. no need to flee.

with a 4 4 split in Scotus. I worry if the swing judge will go with popular opinion. Id Owe a lot more child support if Abortion was illegal.

This sounds much scarier until you get to this bit in the article:



I am totally cool with a majority of people believing that they, personally, are not okay with getting an abortion, but do not believe they have the authority to make that decision for anyone else.

Same here. There's a big difference between pro-life and anti-choice.

Weasel poll fails.

Trust me, pro-life vs anti-life and pro-choice vs anti-choice will have different results.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30771408/
According to most recent Gallup poll.

What are the results of this shift ?
Who are these reasonable pro lifers that supposedly make up the majority of pro lifers?
Should I flee the country now ?
I can understand the shift.

From the article:

"The terms pro-choice and pro-life no longer define the parameters of the debate, witnessed by the fact that in the Gallup Poll, a majority of people say they are both pro-life and that abortion should be legal," Richards said.

She added that most Americans share Obama's stated goal of reducing the number of unintended pregnancies.
After numerous abortion threads, I found myself drifting more towards anti-pro-choice, rather than embracing the cause of pro-lifers per se.

I am totally cool with a majority of people believing that they, personally, are not okay with getting an abortion, but do not believe they have the authority to make that decision for anyone else.

That about sums up my point of view. Suggest they be counseled by church leaders and/or doctors but let people make their own final decision.

with a 4 4 split in Scotus. I worry if the swing judge will go with popular opinion. Id Owe a lot more child support if Abortion was illegal.
the supreme court cant make abortion illegal.

if it overturned roevwade we would have to fight it out state by state.

the supreme court cant make abortion illegal.

if it overturned roevwade we would have to fight it out state by state.

I am in Texas what do you think that does to me ?

Who is we?

The world :p

I am in Texas what do you think that does to me ?
DONT GET PREGNANT!

the majority of people in this country have never lived with abortion being illegal. all they know is that there are some circumstances where the thought of abortion makes them queasy. they still want abortion to be legal when THEY need one. just not when that whore down the street wants one.

DONT GET PREGNANT!

the majority of people in this country have never lived with abortion being illegal. all they know is that there are some circumstances where the thought of abortion makes them queasy. they still want abortion to be legal when THEY need one. just not when that whore down the street wants one.

I am a guy. My fear is having to pay yet another child support check.

DONT GET PREGNANT!
Unless you want to get pregnant.

I'm sort of curious how they define the terms. As they point out, there are a lot of people who are pro-life but believe abortion should be legal.

I am a guy.
In that case, get pregnant... It'll make you rich.
My fear is having to pay yet another child support check.
Use protection? Keep it in your pants?

In that case, get pregnant... It'll make you rich.

Use protection? Keep it in your pants?

The last time I was lied to, I was told she was on the pill.
Needless to say she pitched a fit when she found out pregnancy was not something that would make me marry her.
My crime seems to be picking cray women.

The last time I was lied to, I was told she was on the pill.
Needless to say she pitched a fit when she found out pregnancy was not something that would make me marry her.
My crime seems to be picking cray women.

Ever heard of condoms? They're not 100% effective, but they're better than nothing

Use protection? Keep it in your pants?

That is no place to keep a baby.

I am a guy. My fear is having to pay yet another child support check.
pick a better class of woman to have sex with.

not that that makes you completely immune. but then neither does legalized abortion.

That is no place to keep a baby.

Well, if you have big enough pockets...

pick a better class of woman to have sex with.

not that that makes you completely immune. but then neither does legalized abortion.

Well sometimes the realization that a baby wont make me marry them sets in and they get an abortion.

Well sometimes the realization that a baby wont make me marry them sets in and they get an abortion.
thats only good until you get to law school. then theyll have the baby knowing that you will provide good child support.

The last time I was lied to, I was told she was on the pill.
Needless to say she pitched a fit when she found out pregnancy was not something that would make me marry her.
My crime seems to be picking cray women.
You should have used protection then.....for two reasons!!

Wasn't there a birth control pill for men that they were working on?

This sounds much scarier until you get to this bit in the article:


I am totally cool with a majority of people believing that they, personally, are not okay with getting an abortion, but do not believe they have the authority to make that decision for anyone else.

Exactly, its the position I take, personally...

Like, if I got some girl pregnant, Id do everything I could to convince her not to get one, but, I dont see why the government, or anyone else should be involved in the decision, nor do I see how they have the authority to take the option from her either...

This sounds much scarier until you get to this bit in the article:



I am totally cool with a majority of people believing that they, personally, are not okay with getting an abortion, but do not believe they have the authority to make that decision for anyone else.

The problem is, then they're misidentifying. If you think abortion should be legal, then you are pro-choice. That's the definition of the term. The desire to allow abortion to be a choice. Whether you personally wish to exercise that choice or not is irrelevant. If you want it to remain legal, regardless of your personal convictions on the matter, you are pro-choice.

The problem is, then they're misidentifying. If you think abortion should be legal, then you are pro-choice. That's the definition of the term. The desire to allow abortion to be a choice. Whether you personally wish to exercise that choice or not is irrelevant. If you want it to remain legal, regardless of your personal convictions on the matter, you are pro-choice.

Actually, it's likely to be a lot less clear cut - because the questions appear to be arranged in a less clear cut fashion - so you have to pick full-choice, no-choice, or abortion in some circumstances.

If someone expresses a 'abortion is some cases' option - they can be listed as 'Pro-Life' for the purpose of the survey.

The problem is, then they're misidentifying. If you think abortion should be legal, then you are pro-choice. That's the definition of the term. The desire to allow abortion to be a choice. Whether you personally wish to exercise that choice or not is irrelevant. If you want it to remain legal, regardless of your personal convictions on the matter, you are pro-choice.

Oh, I agree. I'm just way less freaked out by a majority of the country sucking at terminology than thinking they get to decide what does and doesn't happen in my uterus. :p

Oh, I agree. I'm just way less freaked out by a majority of the country sucking at terminology than thinking they get to decide what does and doesn't happen in my uterus. :p

That would be an interesting Session of Congress for sure, ;) lol

Even if this were true, and ignoring Poli's distinction, its a good thing that in America rights arent at the whimsof the majority, isnt it?

That would be an interesting Session of Congress for sure, ;) lol

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/34180

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/34180

lmfao..

At first I was all "Wow, the Onion being serious, weird"...

Then I read the Counter-Point, http://generalitemafia.ipbfree.com/uploads/ipbfree.com/generalitemafia/emo-24.gif

Well sometimes the realization that a baby wont make me marry them sets in and they get an abortion.If they think that getting pregnant solely to get some guy to marry them is a good plan, the abortion really should've happened a generation earlier.

A dark day indeed for those of us who're pro-death.

. My crime seems to be picking cray women.

Are these cray women a little like lobster men?

The last time I was lied to, I was told she was on the pill.
Needless to say she pitched a fit when she found out pregnancy was not something that would make me marry her.
My crime seems to be picking cray women.

Say it with me now. Condom.

pick a better class of woman to have sex with.

not that that makes you completely immune. but then neither does legalized abortion.

Do you think I intentionally pick the crazy women. They seem normal until they start banging their head on the wall. Or scheme to get preg and married.

This sounds much scarier until you get to this bit in the article:



I am totally cool with a majority of people believing that they, personally, are not okay with getting an abortion, but do not believe they have the authority to make that decision for anyone else.

It's not so much a change in people's belief in abortion rights, but rather a change in how devalued vocabulary has become and how divorced words have become from their meaning.

"I'm an atheist, but I believe in God"
"I'm a virgin, but I've had sex and will have it again before I get married."
'I'm not pro-choice, but I do believe people should be allowed to get abortions."
"I'm a fiscal conservative and believe in personal freedom, but I vote Republican."
"My house is round, but it has four equal sides at right angles to one another."
"We were welcome in Iraq. It just wasn't a peaceful welcome."

It's the same sort of stupidity that lets religious fundamentalists say "gay marriage would be forcing an alternative way of life on my. It's making me live in a country in which gay people can get married."

Oh, I agree. I'm just way less freaked out by a majority of the country sucking at terminology than thinking they get to decide what does and doesn't happen in my uterus. :p
This.^^ Even if it takes a few more moments to figure what the majority are trying to say, it's clear that the majority of Americans want abortion to be legal. That's been true for decades.

It's not so much a change in people's belief in abortion rights, but rather a change in how devalued vocabulary has become and how divorced words have become from their meaning.

"I'm an atheist, but I believe in God"
"I'm a virgin, but I've had sex and will have it again before I get married."
'I'm not pro-choice, but I do believe people should be allowed to get abortions."
"I'm a fiscal conservative and believe in personal freedom, but I vote Republican."
"My house is round, but it has four equal sides at right angles to one another."

It's the same sort of stupidity that lets religious fundamentalists say "gay marriage would be forcing an alternative way of life on my. It's making me live in a country in which gay people can get married."
I disagree because people who say, "I'm pro-choice but I believe abortion should be legal" are specifically NOT proposing to deny anyone the ability to get an abortion.

Unlike those who say, "gay marriage would be forcing an alternative way of life on my. It's making me live in a country in which gay people can get married." They ARE proposing to deny a right to people.

Do you think I intentionally pick the crazy women. They seem normal until they start banging their head on the wall. Or scheme to get preg and married.
yes i think you do.

This sounds much scarier until you get to this bit in the article:



I am totally cool with a majority of people believing that they, personally, are not okay with getting an abortion, but do not believe they have the authority to make that decision for anyone else.
Then according to fundi Rules they are Pro-death not Pro-life.

yes i think you do.

Why would I?
Maybe its my need for excitement and danger.

A dark day indeed for those of us who're pro-death.

Whatever happened to the days when it was cool to just like killing people?

I think they probably ended in March of 1953 but I'm not sure...

Whatever happened to the days when it was cool to just like killing people?

I think they probably ended in March of 1953 but I'm not sure...

Indeed. We changed to torture when we first televised the academy awards!

Why would I?
Maybe its my need for excitement and danger.
probably because you LIKE crazy women.

psychology can be a bitch.

Do you think I intentionally pick the crazy women. They seem normal until they start banging their head on the wall. Or scheme to get preg and married.

My advice would be to give them your NSG name, and let them actually get to know you before you date them.

I doubt you'd ever have to worry about people scheming to marry you.

As was said by someone posting on 538: Outlier. Definite outlier.

I disagree because people who say, "I'm pro-choice but I believe abortion should be legal" are specifically NOT proposing to deny anyone the ability to get an abortion.

Unlike those who say, "gay marriage would be forcing an alternative way of life on my. It's making me live in a country in which gay people can get married." They ARE proposing to deny a right to people.

I'm going to assume you meant "I'm not pro-choice but I believe abortion should be legal" because that was what I actually wrote and what you quoted.

But either way, what does your agreeing or disagreeing with my point have to do with them proposing to deny rights to anyone?

My point was that they describe themselves with a label that is the exact opposite of what they are, or they describe a position as the exact opposite of what it is.

When people are able to do that without being challenged on their stupidity and roundly ignored for being so stupid, then it opens the door for all sorts of stupidity, because anything can be anything else. It becomes courageous of Dubya to send other people do their deaths. It becomes patriotic to support him. It becomes vegetarian to eat fish and chicken. It becomes ecologically sound to use coal power. It becomes Christian to hate gays and love war. In fact it becomes gay-loving to hate gays.

Nothing good can happen when people use words to mean the opposite of what they mean (without deliberately being ironic) because then people just call things whatever they want them to be and contentedly let everything fall to shit.

The problem is, then they're misidentifying. If you think abortion should be legal, then you are pro-choice. That's the definition of the term. The desire to allow abortion to be a choice. Whether you personally wish to exercise that choice or not is irrelevant. If you want it to remain legal, regardless of your personal convictions on the matter, you are pro-choice.

The problem is that "pro-life" has never really been a well-identified term. "Pro-choice" is pretty clear. It is a term that refers to someone's political viewpoint on the matter - that it should be legal. It doesn't say anything about said person's personal viewpoint on abortion (whether it is right or wrong).

"Pro-life," on the other hand, often refers more to a person's personal viewpoint on abortion and may or may not describe their political viewpoint.

Since the two terms are often framed differently, they really aren't diametrically opposed. It is possible for someone to self-identify both as pro-life and as pro-choice. And if asked to choose between those two terms, they'll pick whichever one is more important to them as a self-identification.

The problem is, then they're misidentifying. If you think abortion should be legal, then you are pro-choice. That's the definition of the term. The desire to allow abortion to be a choice. Whether you personally wish to exercise that choice or not is irrelevant. If you want it to remain legal, regardless of your personal convictions on the matter, you are pro-choice.

Unless of course they take over the Pro Life movement and make it much more reasonable and personal.

Sorry for the slight gravedig, but it is relevant to the topic. In order to substantiate a claim earlier that I made to suggest that it's not necessarily the views of americans that are changing, but rather the terminology, I present the following: [QUOTEThe 1973 Roe versus Wade decision established a woman's constitutional right to an abortion, at least in the first three months of pregnancy. Would you like to see the Supreme Court completely overturn its Roe versus Wade decision, or not?

30% Yes, overturn
68% No, not overturn[/QUOTE]\

CNN poll

On a more than two to one margin, respondents of the poll supported keeping abortion legal. Which when it comes to abortion, is the only really relevant decision. Would have one, wouldn't have one, pro life, pro choice, had one or not, the only real debate that matters is, all said and done, would you prefer abortion to be legal or illegal?

And Americans overwhelmingly seem to support "legal". In fact, this poll result? represents an all time high to that question.

Sorry for the slight gravedig, but it is relevant to the topic. In order to substantiate a claim earlier that I made to suggest that it's not necessarily the views of americans that are changing, but rather the terminology, I present the following: he 1973 Roe versus Wade decision established a woman's constitutional right to an abortion, at least in the first three months of pregnancy. Would you like to see the Supreme Court completely overturn its Roe versus Wade decision, or not?

30% Yes, overturn
68% No, not overturn

CNN poll

On a more than two to one margin, respondents of the poll supported keeping abortion legal. Which when it comes to abortion, is the only really relevant decision. Would have one, wouldn't have one, pro life, pro choice, had one or not, the only real debate that matters is, all said and done, would you prefer abortion to be legal or illegal?

And Americans overwhelmingly seem to support "legal". In fact, this poll result? represents an all time high to that question.
the bump is fine.
Well I wouldn't mind a changing of pro-life position to ways that prevent abortion without infringing on choice. Birth control, encouraging adoption and so on.
what Pro Life and Pro choice mean should naturally change over time. Just as Liberal and Conservative today is different then it was 40 years ago.

I don't really find the debate today over Roe V Wade (except the vocal fringes), but over things like how and when should the government pay for the procedure, and how it should be regulated.