NationStates Jolt Archive

This is a thread to discuss the people we've forgiven over the years. Be they schoolyard tormentors, parents, siblings, exes, political figures or characters in a novel...who have you forgiven, and how did you arrive at forgiveness?

And in the alternative, who can you still not bring yourself to forgive?

What does forgiveness mean to you?

I don't remember who I've forgiven - because I've forgiven them.

I only remember what I haven't forgiven. Now there, I have a big long list.

I don't remember who I've forgiven - because I've forgiven them. That's some interesting selective memory...so you have something you need to forgive someone for, and once you do...you just purge it all?

I only remember what I haven't forgiven. Now there, I have a big long list.
Yeah, the things you haven't forgiven do tend to occupy the mind more I suppose.

i have mostly not so much forgiven as forgotten past transgressions that i used to hold onto.

No one. Ever. Especially you.

That's some interesting selective memory...so you have something you need to forgive someone for, and once you do...you just purge it all?

I just don't think about it anymore. If someone brings it up, I can usually remember it. Not always, but usually. If no one brings it up though, it doesn't come into mind.

Like, right now, you asked who have I forgiven, but that's too broad and I can't think of anything at all.

However, if you knew me, and asked, "Do you remember that time....", then I probably would remember it. Sometimes, even then, I don't.

If that makes sense at all.

Yeah, the things you haven't forgiven do tend to occupy the mind more I suppose.

Indeedy.

I still haven't forgiven my 7th grade history teacher for punishing me by making miss almost all of lunch for something I didn't fucking do.

That was over a decade ago.

I rarely forgive.

Everyone. I just can't seem to hold a grudge, so in the end I forgive everyone.

Well the only person I can think of that I haven't forgiven yet is my ex. Mostly the way I forgive is thus...I realise that any particular event is in fact not the same event at all, depending on who particpated in it and which view you take. So while I ascribe certain motivations to someone's actions, no doubt that person felt perfectly justified in doing what they did. It doesn't necessarily make it better, but it does remind me that we are all the protagonists in our own little story. I can at least to a certain extent understand another person's motivations. It's more about forgiving someone for being who they are, I suppose. Doesn't mean you have to trust them again, but you can at least understand his or her motivations.

The ex is still too new to forgive though, for being who he is.

If I am wronged, forgiveness is a default. I have, for example, forgiven my partners for times that they've done something to upset me. They've never meant it however, so how I don't know how I could not forgive them. everyone makes mistakes. However, when people wrong me but make no attempt to correct it, never even apologising or conceding how they've hurt me, then I do not forgive.

That said, I do not hold grudges, so in effect they are forgiven. I can move on most of the time. The people who attended school in my year or my parents, for example, have hurt me badly and they never even thought to apologise for it, and so when I think of them in any deep way I'll remember the ways that they've done so to me and not feel that I have managed to forgive them for it, but by and large I just try not to think on it.

Sorry that this is in broken english, not really together at the moment myself and this post has been rewritten several times so I'm more clear.

If I am wronged, forgiveness is a default. I have, for example, forgiven my partners for times that they've done something to upset me. They've never meant it however, so how I don't know how I could not forgive them. everyone makes mistakes. However, when people wrong me but make no attempt to correct it, never even apologising or conceding how they've hurt me, then I do not forgive.

That said, I do not hold grudges, so in effect they are forgiven. I can move on most of the time. The people who attended school in my year or my parents, for example, have hurt me badly and they never even thought to apologise for it, and so when I think of them in any deep way I'll remember the ways that they've done so to me and not feel that I have managed to forgive them for it, but by and large I just try not to think on it.

Sorry that this is in broken english, not really together at the moment myself and this post has been rewritten several times so I'm more clear.

Holy crap, it's Jordaxia. I haven't seen you in a while.

For me forgiveness is not necessarily forgetting. I can forgive someone and still decide I don't trust them anymore, or refuse to be friends with them again.

Ive forgiven Bush.

For me forgiveness is not necessarily forgetting. I can forgive someone and still decide I don't trust them anymore, or refuse to be friends with them again.

I haven't forgiven my mother or my father for the way they treated me throughout my life, but I can still have a conversation with them and for all intents and purposes act as though I'd forgiven them. I don't trust them, but that doesn't seem to factor in to how I treat them.

and 'sup Rhyno. I've been back a few weeks now. keep up. :P:)

and 'sup Rhyno. I've been back a few weeks now. keep up. :P:)

You still doing characatures (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/RhynoD/RhynoDmoose.jpg)?

Ive forgiven Bush.

Really?

Kinda. Don't want to hijack the thread though - do a search for my name and go back a few pages, you'll find the current page. not been very active on it though, (I do mean to sit my arse down and actually draw, but I've had other things on my mind. about a thousand other things.)

Really?

yeah he can do no more harm unless he runs for Governor.

yeah he can do no more harm unless he runs for Governor.

Just cos he's incapable of doing more harm doesn't mean that he should be forgiven for his atrocities.

Bush doesn't need forgiveness, he needs to feel Justice's Mighty Dildo of Retribution!

Bush doesn't need forgiveness, he needs to feel Justice's Mighty Dildo of Retribution!

He might enjoy it.

But then again who wouldn't if you were wielding it? ;)

He might enjoy it.

But then again who wouldn't if you were wielding it? ;)

Stop trying to flirt with me, kid. Das ist verboten!

Stop trying to flirt with me, kid. Das ist verboten!

I can't resist you, sorry.

Just cos he's incapable of doing more harm doesn't mean that he should be forgiven for his atrocities.

Well a trial is unlikely it appears he has set it up so too many people in power on both sides will go down.
so better to forgive for a decade or two.

I can't resist you, sorry.

Got a thing for older women, neh? So do I, what's your mom's number again? :p

Well a trial is unlikely it appears he has set it up so too many people in power on both sides will go down.
so better to forgive for a decade or two.
I see no way to pay him back for his crimes anyway.
Got a thing for older women, neh? So do I, what's your mom's number again? :p

I.swear.to.god,woman.

I';ve forgiven virtually everyone I've both been mad at and actually talked to. The only exception is the [This description censored by George Carlin to stop his ears from bleeding] who wanted me as her boyfriend, and therefore fed my girlfriend lies until I was dumped. By the time my girlfriend found out that the lies were lies, it was too late. :mad:

Yes, there are some other people I'm mad at, but I haven't talked to Kim Jong-Il or Osama Bin-Laden or Mahmoud Ahmedinejad or George W. Bush or...

I will forgive someone if they give a sincere apology and try to make amends. Then, after a little while, I'll forget it ever happened.

But aside from that, I don't really unilaterally forgive. Any time I've been "wronged," it either turns out that it was a big misunderstanding and the person really did not do anything wrong, so they don't need to be forgiven for anything. Rather, I have to beg their pardon for misunderstanding them. Or else, they did do something wrong, and they don't apologize or try to make up for it at all, in which case I do not forgive.

But even when I don't forgive, I don't sit and dwell on it, either. I just file the incident away in memory, and that person has an asterisk next to their name in my mind now, and carry on as normal. But if any questions of trust ever come up, the file of everything they did wrong to me or people/things I care about, is going to get pulled up and reviewed.

I guess then that I'm kind of a "scorekeeper." I used to be really vicious about holding grudges. Now I don't so much "hold" them as just "store" them.

I see no way to pay him back for his crimes anyway.




so pointless to hold a grudge.

so pointless to hold a grudge.

I'd still kick his arse if I got the chance.

I'd still kick his arse if I got the chance.

That's just asking for the secret service to hurt you.

I said if I got the chance.

Usually it takes a lot to upset me on a personal level. I can get upset for other people quite easilly, but myself, I'm hard to offend.

When someone -does- hurt me on that level, however, it is very difficult for me to forgive them. Generally, I simply cut ties with that person and move on. However.... in very rare circumstances where my heart is too tied to a person to sever that connection, forgiveness comes, as has already been mentioned, by simply analyzing the broader picture to come to understand the motivations of the other individual. Usually then it becomes a case of "There is nothing to forgive, you didn't act in direct malice, you acted only as you thought best at the time".

This is a thread to discuss the people we've forgiven over the years. Be they schoolyard tormentors, parents, siblings, exes, political figures or characters in a novel...who have you forgiven, and how did you arrive at forgiveness?

And in the alternative, who can you still not bring yourself to forgive?

What does forgiveness mean to you?
Feeling guilty?

Feeling guilty?

No, I'm pretty good people.

I said if I got the chance.

You mean have the chance along with the ability to get away with it?

It is not hard to lay hands on the president actually.
It is hard to get away it, without broken bones.

No, I'm pretty good people.

You're what now?

I dunno if I can recall a time I've forgiven someone... I tend to hold grudges for many, many years. Does forgetting about the reasons for disliking someone count as forgiving them?

What Muravyets said

This is pretty much how I react/respond/feel, put across a lot less clumsily.

You mean have the chance along with the ability to get away with it?

It is not hard to lay hands on the president actually.
It is hard to get away it, without broken bones.

Former-president.

I'd probably get killed or send to guantanamo.

You're what now?

You'll get over it. You're being taught a lesson, try learning it.

You'll get over it. You're being taught a lesson, try learning it.

I'm trying, I really am. But... I'm an idiot.

No, I'm pretty good people.
It's just a strange topic. I always wonder what motivation is behind such touchy-feely subjects.

It's just a strange topic. I always wonder what motivation is behind such touchy-feely subjects.

These are usually my favourite kind of subjects to read posts on. Peoples opinions and views are interesting, but they get less interesting after hearing them argued a thousand times. This stuff doesn't get talked about much though, so it's interesting.

It's just a strange topic. I always wonder what motivation is behind such touchy-feely subjects.

Oh, the motivation is reading Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead by Orson Scott Card :D

So far no one has really discussed what forgiveness means for them.

So far no one has really discussed what forgiveness means for them.

I don't really know what it means for me. I've never encountered a situation where I've felt someone has done something that I'd need to forgive them for and then actually been able to forgive them. I don't know what it would mean to me to be actually provide that forgiveness and I don't know what it would mean, either.

So far no one has really discussed what forgiveness means for them.

To me it means accepting they will get what they ahve coming to them with out any more involvement from me.

In High school, people who are still good friends and some who aren't did things to eachother and to me that would probably get them expelled, arrested or maybe even on sex offender lists if done today. To be completely honest, so have I. So I suppose that I've forgiven a great deal.

Oh, the motivation is reading Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead by Orson Scott Card :D
I haven't read a book for entertainment is so long. Probably since last summer. Now I'm sad.

I haven't read a book for entertainment is so long. Probably since last summer. Now I'm sad.

Three years of law school sucked the enjoyment of reading right out of me, but it's back!

Forgiveness, to me, is recognising another person's humanity, and understanding that even though they might be deeply flawed, I can't necessarily say I'd make different choices if I were them.

It also means being enough removed from the pain they've caused me, to be able to reach that objective empathy. Sometimes I can do that in the heat of the moment, and sometimes I can't. For me, it's a necessary part of sanity, because if I really can't forgive someone, I tend to obsess.

The biggest part of it, for me, is knowing that someone else is not my problem. Letting go of whatever tie you created to him or her. It's a huge relief. If you can still interact positively after that, then great. If not, also great.

Hope it's not hijacking to wonder HOW to forgive here.

Hope it's not hijacking to wonder HOW to forgive here.

Good question. Is it a matter of not caring anymore? Is it a matter of caring, but endevouring to understand what made someone do the thing you're trying to forgive? Is it about loving the other person despite the wrong? Dunno. I think it's different for everyone.

Three years of law school sucked the enjoyment of reading right out of me, but it's back!

Forgiveness, to me, is recognising another person's humanity, and understanding that even though they might be deeply flawed, I can't necessarily say I'd make different choices if I were them.

It also means being enough removed from the pain they've caused me, to be able to reach that objective empathy. Sometimes I can do that in the heat of the moment, and sometimes I can't. For me, it's a necessary part of sanity, because if I really can't forgive someone, I tend to obsess.

The biggest part of it, for me, is knowing that someone else is not my problem. Letting go of whatever tie you created to him or her. It's a huge relief. If you can still interact positively after that, then great. If not, also great.
I don't know if I've ever forgiven anyone... I just don't hold grudges. It's not to say that I don't get angry at people, but I apologize when I need to...

This may not be quite what you are looking for, but I find it hard to forgive myself. However long ago something bad or foolish deed may be, I'll still remember it and not let it pass. I can't even explain it away as a reasonable action or a misunderstanding. It's there as a long list of 'wrong'.

Hmm, I'll put away my self-image problems and have a think about my reactions to others' deeds.

This may not be quite what you are looking for, but I find it hard to forgive myself. However long ago something bad or foolish deed may be, I'll still remember it and not let it pass. I can't even explain it away as a reasonable action or a misunderstanding. It's there as a long list of 'wrong'.


I understand what you're saying - I haven't forgiven myself for things that occured way more than half my lifetime ago. I get angry at myself for chasing someone in school because they flung something at me. I get angry at myself for being a -complete- arse on my little brothers birthday more than ten years ago. (I was ten at the time) Despite the fact that well, I was not emotionally developed in any way. I still feel bad any time I've made him sad or upset him, even when he's been the person initiating it or I've been too young to know what the hell I was doing.

i've forgiven everyone who's ever wronged me.

well... almost everyone...

there are some things I've never forgiven myself for... :(

I forgive and forget most cases. I still hold grudges against a rare few, but that's usually because they're consistantly asses, not because of a single act.

I don't forgive easily. I merely tolerate people who have wronged me if it is prudent to do so or because I overall care about them enough as a person to still want to try and get on with them.

So far no one has really discussed what forgiveness means for them.

I'll play.

When I've forgiven someone, I have truly forgiven them. Whatever happened will not be used against them at a later date, and will not be referenced again in future situations involving that person (or anyone else), and in most cases, not even remembered. Perhaps that makes me a fool, because I can fall for the same thing twice, but I don't forgive that easily for things that really bother me.

Hitler.

Hitler.

I never saw a reason to hold a grudge against him, anyway.

This is a thread to discuss the people we've forgiven over the years. Be they schoolyard tormentors, parents, siblings, exes, political figures or characters in a novel...who have you forgiven, and how did you arrive at forgiveness?

And in the alternative, who can you still not bring yourself to forgive?

What does forgiveness mean to you?
Forgiveness is the key:

'Forgiveness may be the greatest virtue on earth, and certainly the most needed'
Gordon B Hinkley

'The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.'
Mahatma Gandhi

'To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you.'
Lewis B. Smedes

The last quote is my favourite and to me, makes the most sense.

Hitler.

I forgave Godwin.

I forgave Godwin.

Fred?

To me it means accepting they will get what they ahve coming to them with out any more involvement from me.
That sounds more like revenge rather than forgiveness.

I dunno if I can recall a time I've forgiven someone... I tend to hold grudges for many, many years. Does forgetting about the reasons for disliking someone count as forgiving them?

Probably. I normally don't hold a grudge against anyone, I don't have high standards for people, and it's really awkward if you're committed to hating someone.

I never saw a reason to hold a grudge against him, anyway.

Murdering millions of innocents = Fine with you?

Murdering millions of innocents = Fine with you?

He never did anything to me personally. What he did was wrong, but I don't hate the guy.

I never saw a reason to hold a grudge against him, anyway.

So you hold a grudge against Bush, but not Hitler? Odd, very odd.

there are some things I've never forgiven myself for... :(
Don't hold yourself prisoner. No human is perfect....we all make mistakes. Go ahead and forgive yourself. :)

So you hold a grudge against Bush, but not Hitler? Odd, very odd.

Hitler is a strong leader, we need someone like him. ;)

So you hold a grudge against Bush, but not Hitler? Odd, very odd.

Yeah, that is a bit weird.

He never did anything to me personally. What he did was wrong, but I don't hate the guy.
...

Wow. I'm struck speechless.

Don't hold yourself prisoner. No human is perfect....we all make mistakes. Go ahead and forgive yourself. :)

I also share Junii's problem... I can't seem to forgive myself for some things...

I also share Junii's problem... I can't seem to forgive myself for some things...

You can't have done anything that bad. Stop being so self-punishing and emo.

You can't have done anything that bad. Stop being so self-punishing and emo.

How do you know? He might be a mass murderer.

That sounds more like revenge rather than forgiveness.

Just because G&D doesn't end up loving who he forgives, it doesn't mean he's seeking revenge. The opposite. He clearly stated that the other person will get what he or she deserves without any interference on his part...and he's probably right. Either that person will learn from her mistakes, and life will get better, or that person will not learn, and people will eventually distance themselves from her. Allowing people to reap what they sow is not revenge. Forgiveness is not about saving other people from themselves.

You can't have done anything that bad. Stop being so self-punishing and emo.
Eh, I just have an overbearing Concscience. I don't beat myself up over it on a daily basis, but when I think about, I can't help but think about how wrong it was, and how awful I was acting at the time. I suppose I wish to be perfect, while realizing I can't be, while punishing myself for not being perfect.

But when did You, of all people, become my confessor all of a sudden?:p
How do you know? He might be a mass murderer.
I admit nothing.

Just because G&D doesn't end up loving who he forgives, it doesn't mean he's seeking revenge. The opposite. He clearly stated that the other person will get what he or she deserves without any interference on his part...and he's probably right.
That is why I stated that it sounded more like revenge rather than forgiveness. Many times people that make similar comments cannot see their part in the situation. Their egos block them from seeing any wrong doing on their part. They are holding onto the hurt.

Either that person will learn from her mistakes, and life will get better, or that person will not learn, and people will eventually distance themselves from her. Allowing people to reap what they sow is not revenge.
You are assuming that person was the only one at fault? That she is due some retribution?

Forgiveness is not about saving other people from themselves.
As I stated earlier, forgiveness allows one to free themselves from anger, resentment, and hatred.

I find it easier to forgive when whatever is there to forgive does not bother or upset me any longer. That said, I tend to forgive people.

However, I do not forget. Fool me once, shame on you - try that again, I'll kick your ass.

Once trust is gone, it's gone. I may forgive, but I won't forget. And while that might be tough when it comes to friends or relationships, that's what I learned is best for me.

So, there is (or better: could be) a list of people that I have forgiven - but since most people who have wronged me one way or the other are banished from my life, I honestly don't know who those folks are. Should they try to make contact, sure, I'll know again. But otherwise, I live my life without sparing a second thought on those people.

I honestly try not to bear a grudge for too long because I've noticed that while it might not affect the other person, it has a negative influence on myself. There are very few situations in which I might be considered vengeful. Nowadays, however, all which those people will get is disdain. I just do not have the energy nor time to spare for a life-long vendetta.

Here is a good article on the topic:

Love, Anger and Forgiveness: How To Let Go And Be Emotionally Free Once And For All (http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Love_Anger_and_Forgiveness_How_To_Let_Go_And_Be_Emotionally_Free_Once_And_For_All.html)

Anger and forgiveness seem to be opposites, and in many ways they are. You may be surprised to learn, however, that they have a lot in common. If you make anger the "bad guy," you just won't get to the forgiving part. Anger has to be fully understood and released before you get to move on to the freedom of forgiveness. Forgiveness has to be fully understood before you can let go of resentments and be emotionally whole and free.

It all starts with love. We are born with the need to love and be loved, and no one, even the best parents, can meet that need perfectly. Therefore we all feel hurt as a natural part of life. And of course, there are those hurts that are inflicted by abuse, abandonment and neglect, in some cases extreme.

From this pain, fear and anger naturally emerge. It makes perfect sense to be angry when you're hurt. Anger is an important place to visit, you just don't want to live there. Here is where forgiveness comes in. Forgiveness is the process of letting go of anger and resentment so that you can go on with your life. Forgiveness is for you, not for the forgiven. That is essential to understand.

Anger and forgiveness seem opposite, in the sense that anger involves an intense focus on the "wrongdoer," and forgiveness involves shifting focus off of that person and moving on with your life. Yet there are some ways that anger and forgiveness are the same.
Also, from the same article:

When you are angry at someone and blaming them, you are definitely judging them and putting yourself in a "one-up" position. The way you are dishonoring yourself here is that you are failing to look at your own creative responsibility in the situation. This is the hazard of the "blame game." When you are into blaming others for your feelings, situation or plight, you are making yourself a victim and denying your own power and responsibility.

Premature forgiveness is forgiving someone when you're not through being angry. You are still judging them, and therefore you're seeing yourself as "one-up." You are dishonoring yourself by pretending to forgive in your mind, when your heart and gut are still carrying anger and resentment.
For some people that I know, it is a very complex situation, and they state unequivicolly that they will never forgive that person, and they stay stuck and they stay sick.

No one. I prefer vengeance to forgiveness.

That is why I stated that it sounded more like revenge rather than forgiveness. Many times people that make similar comments cannot see their part in the situation. Their egos block them from seeing any wrong doing on their part. They are holding onto the hurt.

By not seeking revenge and letting Karma pay to them what they are due, I am seeking revenge ? All I am doing it simply realizing by seeking to personally gain satisfaction in the matter I am draining energy from my life that could go elsewhere.


You are assuming that person was the only one at fault? That she is due some retribution?

You assume whats coming to them is negative.
Society has a way to rewards those who provide a positive influence and punishes those who provide a negative influence.
Just because Ive forgiven the person doesn't mean I will lie for them.


As I stated earlier, forgiveness allows one to free themselves from anger, resentment, and hatred.
Is that not what I do ? I let go and let the cycle of Karma handle things.

By not seeking revenge and letting Karma pay to them what they are due, I am seeking revenge ?
Just because you don't seek revenge doesn't mean that you have truly forgiven them. Are you still holding a grudge?

All I am doing it simply realizing by seeking to personally gain satisfaction in the matter I am draining energy from my life that could go elsewhere.
However, would you derive satisfaction if something bad happened to that person.

You assume whats coming to them is negative.
I don't think that is an unwarranted assumption, considering the way you worded your response.

Society has a way to rewards those who provide a positive influence and punishes those who provide a negative influence.
That would depend entirely what you mean by "influence".

Just because Ive forgiven the person doesn't mean I will lie for them.
No one suggested that you had to. The number one reason to forgive is to free onself.

Is that not what I do ? I let go and let the cycle of Karma handle things.
My method of forgiveness is to pray for the individual who hurt me and I pray no less for them then I would for myself.

I've forgiven a lot of people, I've actually lost count.

Only one person I can't forgive - my ex-mother-in-law. When her husband died, leaving her in excess of $10million, she started using it as a bludgeon to bring her children and grandchildren in line. Those who toe her line will inherit, those who don't, won't inherit. My daughter has been written out of the will and out of her life because she won't turn her back on me. The only reason my son is still in the will is that he is her only male grandchild who carries the surname. It's not the money (or at least not entirely), it's the fact that she's trying to tear the family apart and playing favorites based on gender and whim. For this I will not forgive her.

Having said that, I hope that whatever forgiveness I need, I will get.

In 26 years, I don't know that I've ever forgiven anyone for anything.

I was told to forgive and forget so can you please forgive me for forgeting? :p

I've found forgiveness to be a liability, myself. People tend to repeat their behaviors, so why encourage that silliness with forgiveness? Twelve years ago I learned that forgiving transgressions only invites further betrayal, so I abandoned all of that. My life has improved considerably since then.

No-one, they're all written down on my list.

This is a thread to discuss the people we've forgiven over the years. Be they schoolyard tormentors, parents, siblings, exes, political figures or characters in a novel...who have you forgiven, and how did you arrive at forgiveness?Schoolyard tormentors. Most of them have grown up.
And in the alternative, who can you still not bring yourself to forgive?My last ex.

There is only one person I haven't forgiven. What he has done to me is beyond anything I ever could have imagined.

I am slowly coming to terms with this portion of my past, and I've almost forgiven myself for it.

Hmmm, I suppose there's one former friend I still haven't forgiven. We had a big fight after she converted and became a raging Baptist. This girl was of course as hedonistic as I before her wonderful change of heart. All of a sudden she was really judgmental, and it seemed such ridiculous hypocrisy. But that wasn't even it. I was willing to accept that she'd willingly become a little brain damaged...perhaps it would pass. When she accused me of using her for money through the years of our friendship though, the offense was great. I feel very strongly about not accepting money from others, and paying my own way, so it was like calling someone a liar when they make a point of always telling the truth. I've never forgiven her for that, but then again, she never took it back. Also, she's still a moronic baptist, so there's no point in being friends again anyway.

It's not a big grudge, but it allows me to keep my distance from her.

That's why I hate religious people.

I feel very strongly about not accepting money from others, and paying my own way, so it was like calling someone a liar when they make a point of always telling the truth.

That shit makes me SO. MAD. I give my students the riot act if they ever call each other "liar". I hate that.

I've got the same deal with my former best friend, who I haven't spoken to in... man, almost six years now? I was in love with her since high school, which she knew, and freshman year of college we got drunk and made out a few times. She initiated it every single time. Then mid-year she starts dating a mutual friend, and all of a sudden her story changes and I've "gotten her drunk" to "lower her inhibitions" so I could have my way with her, apparently. Then her boyfriend, who used to be the guy I confided in about my feelings for her, simultaneously accuses me of trying to take advantage of her AND tries to feel me up while we're all drunk one night. And she defends him.

So yeah, of all the people I haven't forgiven in my life, those two douche bag son-of-two-brothers are at the top of the fucking list.

So far no one has really discussed what forgiveness means for them.
To me, forgiveness is letting go of the matter, 100%. No more hard feelings. No more resentment. No more mistrust. If you do something bad to me, and I forgive you for it, that means, all conflict is over on that point, forever. It is a non-issue. That's why I tend to forget what I have forgiven. I never give it another thought because there are no emotions attached to it anymore.

This may not be quite what you are looking for, but I find it hard to forgive myself. However long ago something bad or foolish deed may be, I'll still remember it and not let it pass. I can't even explain it away as a reasonable action or a misunderstanding. It's there as a long list of 'wrong'.

Hmm, I'll put away my self-image problems and have a think about my reactions to others' deeds.

I understand what you're saying - I haven't forgiven myself for things that occured way more than half my lifetime ago. I get angry at myself for chasing someone in school because they flung something at me. I get angry at myself for being a -complete- arse on my little brothers birthday more than ten years ago. (I was ten at the time) Despite the fact that well, I was not emotionally developed in any way. I still feel bad any time I've made him sad or upset him, even when he's been the person initiating it or I've been too young to know what the hell I was doing.
Me too.

I never feel the slightest guilt about slamming someone who I sincerely believe deserved it. I have gotten people fired from jobs, and I feel fine with that because they were fucking up, hurting the company, and trying to shove the blame off on me and other people. I told the truth, it brought them down. I have no idea how that affected them personally, and I don't care.

Even if I know I have hurt someone's feeling, I won't feel bad about it if I think they had it coming -- like if they were being cruel to someone else who did not deserve it. Something like that happened recently.

On the other hand, if I do something that hurts someone when they have done nothing against me or mine, even if what I did was an accident, I will feel guilty about it -- I guess pretty much forever. I still feel bad about inadvertent things I've done that hurt others years and years ago.

Schoolyard tormentors. Most of them have grown up.
Yeah. They've grown up from asshole-children into asshole-adults. And instead of bullying younger or smaller kids in the schoolyard and taking their lunch-money, they now mob people wherever they're working. I know a few of that type.

Yeah. They've grown up from asshole-children into asshole-adults. And instead of bullying younger or smaller kids in the schoolyard and taking their lunch-money, they now mob people wherever they're working. I know a few of that type.

Or they raise bully kids, who I then have to give suspensions.

Yeah. They've grown up from asshole-children into asshole-adults. And instead of bullying younger or smaller kids in the schoolyard and taking their lunch-money, they now mob people wherever they're working. I know a few of that type.

Oh, I don't know. I've met a lot of people that I used to have beef with back when, and it's always a shock to see them as normal people with families, who don't at all behave that way anymore.

Sure, some people will always be assholes...but I'd like to think that most people mature, and grow out of certain states of assholery.

I was beaten black and blue every week by a kid who had been flunked year after year until he was the biggest meanest hunk of meat around. By him and his equally subhuman four flunkies.

My dad told me to suck it up.

Years later the bully came back to me. I was a success, new car, new house, happy family. He was a failure, busted from the army on dishonoroable discharge, a convicted felon.

He came to ask me forgiveness.

Can a few words make up for years of hell?

I told him I'd think about it, and had my secretary show him out; and watch him leave, to make sure he did no vandalism on the way.

I was beaten black and blue every week by a kid who had been flunked year after year until he was the biggest meanest hunk of meat around. By him and his equally subhuman four flunkies.

My dad told me to suck it up.

Years later the bully came back to me. I was a success, new car, new house, happy family. He was a failure, busted from the army on dishonoroable discharge, a convicted felon.

He came to ask me forgiveness.

Can a few words make up for years of hell?

I told him I'd think about it, and had my secretary show him out; and watch him leave, to make sure he did no vandalism on the way.

Something about this just reads false. Might be the cadence.

In any case, were it to be true, I'd be impressed if someone like that came to ask forgiveness.

I've forgiven people who hurt me, betrayed me etc. Doesn't mean I'll be friends with them, but I've forgiven them.

However, I have a hard time with forgiving myself for my own short comings.

I've forgiven the Jews for all the troubles they bring the world.

Kidding...I can never forgive the Jews, especially after they killed Jesus!*


I've forgiven my former roommate who tried reporting me to the CIA, because I was looking at a terrorist website, but only so I could try and talk them out of it. Meh, oh well.:)



*totally being sarcastic!

Something about this just reads false. Might be the cadence.

In any case, were it to be true, I'd be impressed if someone like that came to ask forgiveness.

Or the fact that you can't flunk a kid "year after year" anymore. Or the bit about the secretary. Or that this mysterious-felon tracked down our narrator after presumably many years, spilled his whole life story and begged for forgiveness, because his years in the military and prison had softened his heart and showed him how wrong he had been to pick on a kid in school.

Or the fact that you can't flunk a kid "year after year" anymore. Or the bit about the secretary. Or that this mysterious-felon tracked down our narrator after presumably many years, spilled his whole life story and begged for forgiveness, because his years in the military and prison had softened his heart and showed him how wrong he had been to pick on a kid in school.

Seems like one of those stories that you hear on the TV or movies.

I was beaten black and blue every week by a kid who had been flunked year after year until he was the biggest meanest hunk of meat around. By him and his equally subhuman four flunkies.

My dad told me to suck it up.

Years later the bully came back to me. I was a success, new car, new house, happy family. He was a failure, busted from the army on dishonoroable discharge, a convicted felon.

He came to ask me forgiveness.

Can a few words make up for years of hell?

I told him I'd think about it, and had my secretary show him out; and watch him leave, to make sure he did no vandalism on the way.
Did he actually ask for forgiveness or did he just come to apologize. There is a huge difference.

I was beaten black and blue every week by a kid

This was the only part of the story I believed

Just because you don't seek revenge doesn't mean that you have truly forgiven them. Are you still holding a grudge?


However, would you derive satisfaction if something bad happened to that person.

No, once I forgiven them I don't care.
My only care will be in regards to what my duty is to that person in whatever relationship I happen to be continuing with them. Forgiveness does not mean things go back to the way they were before, if I am likely to continue being hurt by the person backing away from friendship may occur.


I don't think that is an unwarranted assumption, considering the way you worded your response.

It is hard to say what is good or bad. What you do you do to yourself in the long run.


That would depend entirely what you mean by "influence".

Influence is action.
Each action no matter how small affects your environment. You can not be separated from the environment you live in. No matter what you do good or bad it affects you.

No one suggested that you had to. The number one reason to forgive is to free onself.


My method of forgiveness is to pray for the individual who hurt me and I pray no less for them then I would for myself.

Seeing as I don't believe in god(or at least the prayer answering sort), I find prayers to be roughly equivalent to inaction. So in my view you have done the same thing I have.

Hmmm, I suppose there's one former friend I still haven't forgiven. We had a big fight after she converted and became a raging Baptist. This girl was of course as hedonistic as I before her wonderful change of heart. All of a sudden she was really judgmental, and it seemed such ridiculous hypocrisy. But that wasn't even it. I was willing to accept that she'd willingly become a little brain damaged...perhaps it would pass. When she accused me of using her for money through the years of our friendship though, the offense was great. I feel very strongly about not accepting money from others, and paying my own way, so it was like calling someone a liar when they make a point of always telling the truth. I've never forgiven her for that, but then again, she never took it back. Also, she's still a moronic baptist, so there's no point in being friends again anyway.

It's not a big grudge, but it allows me to keep my distance from her.

I have to wonder what your actions were in this ?
Sounds like her new friends saw you as a threat and brainwashed her.
Helped her selectively remember times you borrowed money (and not remember you paying her back the next day).
Had something similar happen with an Ex (except brainwashed by druggies), Suddenly I was accused of things like doing nothing for her birthday, when in fact I had thrown her a party the weekend of, and taken her out the night of. And throwing a party for some other girl, when in the other girls bf threw the party and me and my Ex showed up and left early.
When people have a major shift in lifestyle they are particularly vulnerable to having their perceptions of the past altered.

Stop trying to flirt with me, kid. Das ist verboten!

Yeah RoI, leave it for the more mature boys.

No-one, they're all written down on my list.

"Right boy you're on the list, what's your name?"

"Pike don't tell him your name"

That's why I hate religious people.

Don't hate. Why do you hate me?

Yeah RoI, leave it for the more mature boys.
Mature? You mean old?

Don't hate. Why do you hate me?

I just do, it's something I can't explain.

Mature? You mean old?

Well if we are going to be rude about it. :(

:p

I just do, it's something I can't explain.

I thought we were friends? Really dude it is not as if I say you should be going to mass every weekend or that gays shouldn't marry or that you belong in hell

Well if we are going to be rude about it. :(

:p

Soz, Grandpa.

I thought we were friends? Really dude it is not as if I say you should be going to mass every weekend or that gays shouldn't marry or that you belong in hell

ftw? I don't hate you.

Soz, Grandpa.

Better watch your mouth little man, you don't want to start something you can't finish *BAM*

ftw? I don't hate you.

Is that "ftw" or "wtf"? Anyway mate, you said you hate religious people I am religious granted not Southern Baptist religious but still, anyway dude, it was an attempt to point out that not all religious people are the same and that some of us are top blokes, same goes for non-religious people too, some are just pricks and must hate others are top blokes.

Better watch your mouth little man, you don't want to start something you can't finish *BAM*

You really think you'd win? I'm young robust and I still have my original hips.

And little man? I'm nigh 6'3".

Is that "ftw" or "wtf"? Anyway mate, you said you hate religious people I am religious granted not Southern Baptist religious but still, anyway dude, it was an attempt to point out that not all religious people are the same and that some of us are top blokes, same goes for non-religious people too, some are just pricks and must hate others are top blokes.

wtf is basically the same as ftw.

T'was a bit of a generalisation, sorry. But most religious people I've met are twats.

You really think you'd win? I'm young robust and I still have my original hips.

And little man? I'm nigh 6'3".

Dude, last night I took on a guy 6'5", and you know what they say about the bigger they are...

wtf is basically the same as ftw.

T'was a bit of a generalisation, sorry. But most religious people I've met are twats.

What the fuck is basically the same as for the win? Well whatever floats your boat mate.

Indeed it was young squire, I can't wait till you're 23 then we shall see who is laughing then.

Dude, last night I took on a guy 6'5", and you know what they say about the bigger they are...
...the harder they hit.


Indeed it was young squire, I can't wait till you're 23 then we shall see who is laughing then.

I thought you called me a squirrel. :wink:

I'll see you in 8 years.

...the harder they hit.

lol, let me introduce to a few moves I learnt while studying Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

I thought you called me a squirrel. :wink:

I'll see you in 8 years.

A squirrel lol

Shit it is that long, it's funny because I know a few 15 year olds (both younger siblings of friends and kids I coached when I was much younger) and I know full well that in three years time I will see them at the pub drinking beer and on the dance floor, it could be even sooner since under 18's are allowed in before midnight.

I forgave my dog for barking.

lol, let me introduce to a few moves I learnt while studying Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
I only need to show you oneof the moves I learnt doing karate for 3 and 1/2 years. You wont get up again.


A squirrel lol

Shit it is that long, it's funny because I know a few 15 year olds (both younger siblings of friends and kids I coached when I was much younger) and I know full well that in three years time I will see them at the pub drinking beer and on the dance floor, it could be even sooner since under 18's are allowed in before midnight.

There aloud in b4 midnight in Oz?

I only need to show you oneof the moves I learnt doing karate for 3 and 1/2 years. You wont get up again.

Don't start what you can't finish, son.

There aloud in b4 midnight in Oz?

Yeah they are, not all places do allow it but the law allows them in before midnight. Not allowed to drink till 18 but that never really stopped me.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/bryan.wolin/SCJn5mFG1XI/AAAAAAAAAGU/N_bq9CX3VqU/Jew-Jitsu_thumb%5B2%5D.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/bryan.wolin/SCJn5mFG1XI/AAAAAAAAAGU/N_bq9CX3VqU/Jew-Jitsu_thumb%5B2%5D.jpg

I'm not a Jew, I'm a...

http://scienceblogs.com/zooillogix/karate%20chimp.jpg

My father... I don't think I have been able to forgive him for the things he did when he was married to my mother or the hurtful things he said to me while I was growing up. We can talk, I can see him once in a while, but the ache is there. Actually, tbh, I don't think I have forgiven anyone who has hurt me. When the wronging happens, I just push the offenders as far as I can from my mind and from me, and slowly, I forget them. Forgetting seems like a far better punishment than forgiveness, at least to me.

What is forgiveness? Forgiveness is a virtue I don't posses. As simple as that.

My father... I don't think I have been able to forgive him for the things he did when he was married to my mother or the hurtful things he said to me while I was growing up. We can talk, I can see him once in a while, but the ache is there. Actually, tbh, I don't think I have forgiven anyone who has hurt me. When the wronging happens, I just push the offenders as far as I can from my mind and from me, and slowly, I forget them. Forgetting seems like a far better punishment than forgiveness, at least to me.

What is forgiveness? Forgiveness is a virtue I don't posses. As simple as that.


I don't think it is a virtue at all. I do think that anger is a waste of time and energy though, which is why forgivness comes easy to me.

Like every problem I encounter I ask myself 'well how much more worse can it have been?' When the answer comes back, as it inveriably does 'much fucking worse', then I consider my lucky escape and so all anger disipates.

Another great article on this topic by the Mayo (hold the mustard) Clinic:

Forgiveness: How to let go of grudges and bitterness (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/forgiveness/MH00131)

Some great benefits:

Evidence is mounting that holding on to grudges and bitterness results in long-term health problems. Forgiveness, on the other hand, offers numerous benefits, including:

Lower blood pressure
Stress reduction
Less hostility
Better anger management skills
Lower heart rate
Lower risk of alcohol or substance abuse
Fewer depression symptoms
Fewer anxiety symptoms
Reduction in chronic pain
More friendships
Healthier relationships
Greater religious or spiritual well-being
Improved psychological well-being
If you are really into the benefits of forgiveness, read both pages and/or do some more research.

I forgive pretty easily. I'm just not the type to hold grudges, it takes too much effort. Sometimes it does take time for wounds to heal and forgiveness to happen. I'm still struggling with one, mostly because I'm still having anxiety and stress from my experience with them. I'd never do it, but I so want to write them an email or call them and call them on the carpet about the toilet paper incident.