NationStates Jolt Archive

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama declared Wednesday he would try to block the court-ordered release of photos showing U.S. troops abusing prisoners, abruptly reversing his position out of concern the pictures would "further inflame anti-American opinion" and endanger U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The White House had said last month it would not oppose the release of dozens of photos from military investigations of alleged misconduct. But American commanders in the war zones have expressed deep concern about fresh damage the photos might do, especially as the U.S. tries to wind down the Iraq war and step up operations against the Taliban and al-Qaida in Afghanistan.
Linky (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jrkXnZhxhMaFxoVux716AYaXXlsQD985L8Q80)

Do you think he should block the release of the photos?

i think they should be released.

As long as he doesn't plan on blocking it forever, I can see where he's going with this. Before "Where's the Change, Sauron!?" I'd like to point out that the photos probably will give Al'Qaeda and the Taliban a good propaganda ammo in the region where they've had to deal with too many incidents of Allied-inflicted civilian casualties as well as no apparent progress in sight.

The fact that he acknowledges the existence of the abuse is much more than we could have expected from the previous administration.

i think they should be released.

Why? What good would that do?

Why? What good would that do?
the truth will set you free.

the truth will set you free.

But we already know the truth, we've been beaten over the head with the truth. We get it, under the Bush administration we tortured people. Unless they plan to actually start charging people for it, we should move on.

Personally I'm undecided...
On one hand, I agree with Ash, that the photos should be released.
On the other hand, the reasoning behind his changing his position makes sense.

But we already know the truth, we've been beaten over the head with the truth. We get it, under the Bush administration we tortured people. Unless they plan to actually start charging people for it, we should move on.
no we dont.

we think we kinda have the gist of what happened. when we see the photos there will be no forgetting about things like hanging, simulated electrocution and murder.

we are focused today on waterboarding but there was far more torture done than that.

Personally I'm undecided...
On one hand, I agree with Ash, that the photos should be released.
On the other hand, the reasoning behind his changing his position makes sense.
it does make sense but i think we gain more by facing up to it than we lose by handing photo ammunition to alqaeda.

no we dont.

we think we kinda have the gist of what happened. when we see the photos there will be no forgetting about things like hanging, simulated electrocution and murder.

we are focused today on waterboarding but there was far more torture done than that.

I just don't see the point. Yes, it was bad what we did, but so far we're not holding anyone accountable, and it doesn't seem like we're going to. If Obama really wants to make sure that we never do this again, then start bringing charges up on people, start holding our own people accountable.

Just shocking people with photos of torture isn't going to do anyone one bit of good.

I just don't see the point. Yes, it was bad what we did, but so far we're not holding anyone accountable, and it doesn't seem like we're going to. If Obama really wants to make sure that we never do this again, then start bringing charges up on people, start holding our own people accountable.

Just shocking people with photos of torture isn't going to do anyone one bit of good.
the more outrage there is the higher the likelihood of a special prosecutor being named. we need to hold everyone accountable even if some of them are not convicted for torture.

the more outrage there is the higher the likelihood of a special prosecutor being named. we need to hold everyone accountable even if some of them are not convicted for torture.

Why don't Obama just name a special prosecutor? Why go through this whole thing of releasing everything to get the people riled up.

Why don't Obama just name a special prosecutor? Why go through this whole thing of releasing everything to get the people riled up.
he has said that he doesnt want to.

i say "fuck him"

we need this investigated.

he has said that he doesnt want to.

i say "fuck him"

we need this investigated.

Why doesn't he want to? Seems like he's sending mix messages.

Why doesn't he want to? Seems like he's sending mix messages.
im pretty sure that its because it will be such a flamefest that it could easily derail his entire agenda.

plus it needs to come from the attny general. we forget that the attny general isnt the president's lawyer; he is the people's lawyer. he needs to enforce the law even when its not politically convenient.

im pretty sure that its because it will be such a flamefest that it could easily derail his entire agenda.

plus it needs to come from the attny general. we forget that the attny general isnt the president's lawyer; he is the people's lawyer. he needs to enforce the law even when its not politically convenient.

So he doesn't want to go down this road of prosecuting people because it could derail his agenda, and yet he's releasing the memos, photos, etc.

Dammit...this is not consistent! Be consistent Obama!

I think they shouldn't be released but should be used in closed court as evidence of official support for the actions taken for convicting Bush administration.

I support President Obama's decision and his reasoning. I'm a little suprised not to see more of his more enthusiastic, leftist supporters not posting in this thread . . .

I think they shouldn't be released but should be used in closed court as evidence of official support for the actions taken for convicting Bush administration.
this for sure.

I support President Obama's decision and his reasoning. I'm a little suprised not to see more of his more enthusiastic, leftist supporters not posting in this thread . . .

I agree with the decision.

We know they were tortured. What would be gained by showing the pictures to the public?

Now if there are court cases, then they are evidence.....

In one respect, I agree with Ashmoria. On the other hand, I also agree that just releasing the photos by themselves, without a supporting context, would provide more fodder for anti-American violence.

What would I accept as a "supporting context"? A trial for war crimes. If these photos are released in the context of "And see what we do to the ones who committed these crimes," then I think it would be the right thing to do.

Without that? Well, honesty is always the best policy, even when it hurts us, but to me, even though it is better to release the picitures than suppress them, releasing them but doing nothing to bring the perpetrators to justice would only make that ommission even worse.

I support President Obama's decision and his reasoning. I'm a little suprised not to see more of his more enthusiastic, leftist supporters not posting in this thread . . .
I'm surprised it took you so long to post that remark. Why weren't you the second post with that crack?

In one respect, I agree with Ashmoria. On the other hand, I also agree that just releasing the photos by themselves, without a supporting context, would provide more fodder for anti-American violence.

What would I accept as a "supporting context"? A trial for war crimes. If these photos are released in the context of "And see what we do to the ones who committed these crimes," then I think it would be the right thing to do.

Without that? Well, honesty is always the best policy, even when it hurts us, but to me, even though it is better to release the picitures than suppress them, releasing them but doing nothing to bring the perpetrators to justice would only make that ommission even worse.
welll

yeah

youre right as usual

to put out photos showing that we are even worse than what we think now but to not do anything meaningful about it would mean that we condone everything depicted in those photos.

welll

yeah

youre right as usual

to put out photos showing that we are even worse than what we think now but to not do anything meaningful about it would mean that we condone everything depicted in those photos.
Essentially. I don't know what the fuck Obama thinks he's doing with this waffling/refusnik bullshit, but if he doesn't pull another switch and get out of the way of investigations and prosecutions of the former administration by the end of his first 4 years, then I will have no problem whatsoever with calling for his prosecution right along with Bush and Cheney's. Screw the pictures. We know what went on. When is someone going to do something about it? That's really all I care about at this point.

I think Obama chose the right and common sense decision in not releasing those photos. Declassifying those images will only serve to fuel our enemies propaganda and will expose our soldiers overseas to even more danger.

Similar to how when those Abu-Ghraib photos were leaked it sparked riots all over the muslim world and helped Al-Qaeda recruit more members to their cause.
Because of the national security risks releasing those photos pose, I believe it should remain classified indefinitely until such a time when it no longer poses a security risk to release those photos.

Essentially. I don't know what the fuck Obama thinks he's doing with this waffling/refusnik bullshit, but if he doesn't pull another switch and get out of the way of investigations and prosecutions of the former administration by the end of his first 4 years, then I will have no problem whatsoever with calling for his prosecution right along with Bush and Cheney's. Screw the pictures. We know what went on.

Why wait 4 years then? You know the likes of Bush and Cheney are realistically never going to have their day in court barring a miracle or a revolution.

Well, honesty is always the best policy, even when it hurts us,

Really?

Ok...well....I have to tell you yes that outfit makes you butt look big!

Why? What good would that do?
Porn.


Will Obama ban 24? Their president is no longer black.

Why wait 4 years then? You know the likes of Bush and Cheney are realistically never going to have their day in court barring a miracle or a revolution.
Knee-jerk reaction ftl. Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, never gonna happen, etc, etc. Gods know it's not like I've ever acknowledged that the chances of those people ever getting indicted are nil, or anything like that.

Oh, wait, actually, it is as if I've done that. In fact, it's pretty much been mantra on war crimes prosecution since Bush started his bloody fucking war. But hey, it's always better to pretend there's no such thing as yesterday. Makes it that much easier to just keep repeating the same faux-cynical stuff in every single thread.

Let me explain it for ya: There's an actual indictment being handed down. Then there's Obama either obstructing or facilitating an investigation. Two comletely different things. Can you figure out which one I'm willing to give Obama 4 years to get right?

Hint: It's the one he is legally bound to do, regardless of whether it leads to anything or not. In fact, it's the only one HE can do at all.

Really?

Ok...well....I have to tell you yes that outfit makes you butt look big!
*hurts TBF* There now. Isn't that better?

Knee-jerk reaction ftl. Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, never gonna happen, etc, etc. Gods know it's not like I've ever acknowledged that the chances of those people ever getting indicted are nil, or anything like that.

Actually, I did consider putting that down as an acknowledgment, but wasn't sure if you covered this particular prosecution specifically before.

Don't misunderstand. I'd love to be proven wrong here. It would at least tell me that things don't always have to be the politically expedient outcome. As to whether it will happen or not? Well, we'll see I suppose.

EDIT: Let's take this a step further. Say that things do happen as you hope. Bush and Cheney go on trial. What do you think would be the repercussions of such a trial and the things that would be exposed in it?

no we dont.

we think we kinda have the gist of what happened. when we see the photos there will be no forgetting about things like hanging, simulated electrocution and murder.

we are focused today on waterboarding but there was far more torture done than that.

Naaa gota say I'm with Wilgrove on this one. In times of war, you just cannot hand the enemy a weapon of propoganda. The Prez I think is making the correct call.

I suspect they will come out eventually, and it will be worse for his administration when they do. The propaganda value created by the impression that the US has something to hide is probably greater. Much better to bite the bullet and release them as a way of drawing a line to emphasise that this was part of the past and not the future.

he has said that he doesnt want to.

i say "fuck him"

we need this investigated.

Absolutely. Even if theres no prosecutions, there should be no doubt as to what Cheney and Co stood for.

Absolutely. Even if theres no prosecutions, there should be no doubt as to what Cheney and Co stood for.

So an investigation cannot be performed with these pictures entering the public domain?

So an investigation cannot be performed with these pictures entering the public domain?

I think they'd help get support for a more broad and sweeping investigation than would otherwise be the case, particularily if - as I suspect - some document torture in the form of sexual assault.

Actually, I did consider putting that down as an acknowledgment, but wasn't sure if you covered this particular prosecution specifically before.
What "particular prosecution"? We are not discussing a particular prosecution in this thread. Have you read the thread? You might want to. The actual topic question is interesting.

Don't misunderstand. I'd love to be proven wrong here. It would at least tell me that things don't always have to be the politically expedient outcome. As to whether it will happen or not? Well, we'll see I suppose.

EDIT: Let's take this a step further. Say that things do happen as you hope. Bush and Cheney go on trial. What do you think would be the repercussions of such a trial and the things that would be exposed in it?
Repercussions? Well, how about, for starters, a potential lowering of the rate of similar incidents among US officials. That would be a step in the right direction, imo. What are the repercussions of any trial?

And more to the point -- who cares what the repercussions would be? It is the law. The US claims to be a nation ruled by law. That means we must obey the law, regardless of the fallout. Period. Do some Americans fear the outcome? Tough, let them suck it up and learn to cope.