NationStates Jolt Archive

Fill in the Blanks, NSG!

I was thinking about this the other day when they had a news story regarding the Cronulla Race Riots on a current affairs show. That day made me, for the first time in my life, totally ashamed to be an Australian. To see groups of Australians attacking anyone different, and to hear politicians and other personalities daring to support or defend their actions in any way, or blaming the victims for not being "Australian" enough sickened me. To hear friends and relatives defending the actions made me feel even worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots

What events have made you ashamed of your country? If you have never felt this, why not? Is there a case to be made that you can't help where you are born, so it's silly to feel any way other than neutral about it?

My country as a whole doesn't do much one way or the other.

There are a lot of things that make me ashamed to be British at times, from how our government is trying to run things, to our history, to the sheer bigotry and ignorance occasionally seen within our society. There are quite a few things that make me proud to be British too, so it all evens out.

There are however, even more things that make me ashamed to be a member of the human race.

Ashamed to be human.

Humans lay vast stretches of our home, the Earth, to waste. If I were not human, I might grant humans the benefit of the doubt, for the waste of life and of potential life they cause ... but being human I know, I have read and I have heard and within my knowledge of economy and of history I understand, just what trivial and selfish reasons humans have for killing and removed the livelihood of our fellow creatures, and destroying natural beauty to replace it with monuments to our own vanity.

We're shit, and I'm ashamed to be one of us. I am ashamed to be human.

Thanks for asking.

My country as a whole doesn't do much one way or the other.

They had bin tax riots a few years back in Dublin...
Just thought I'd mention it.

They had bin tax riots a few years back in Dublin...
Just thought I'd mention it.

We did? Cool.

We did? Cool.

We had leaflets pushed through our door calling for revolution!
They were planning to lay in wait for the garbage car, armed with full (but unpaid for, obivously) bin bags. And then, when they'd least suspect it, everyone would run up and throw their bin bag into the back of the garbage car...

I wanted to be there and film it, but I had to be in work :(

You all tax your garbage bags ???? how barbaric.

You all tax your garbage bags ???? how barbaric.

Only if you want them collected from the side of the road.
Alternatively, you can get a bin registered.

Only if you want them collected from the side of the road.
Alternatively, you can get a bin registered.

you mean you don't just put the bags out on the road on trash pick up day?

I would say that the Canadian treatment of its aboriginal peoples is probably the worst stain on our history.

I would say that the Canadian treatment of its aboriginal peoples is probably the worst stain on our history.

you could always give them a share of the profits of the oil you take out of their land.

You all tax your garbage bags ???? how barbaric.

Indeed. In the States, producing Garbage is not just a human right, it is a virtue.

There is no clearer sign that one is participating in wholesome, economy-building Consumption, than that one has quantities of shit to Throw Away.

Freedom from Boring Old Shit You Bought By Mistake is one of the essential freedoms! It should never be taxed.

What events have made you ashamed of your country? If you have never felt this, why not? Is there a case to be made that you can't help where you are born, so it's silly to feel any way other than neutral about it?

The Pacific Solution, that is all.

Indeed. In the States, producing Garbage is not just a human right, it is a virtue.

There is no clearer sign that one is participating in wholesome, economy-building Consumption, than that one has quantities of shit to Throw Away.

Freedom from Boring Old Shit You Bought By Mistake is one of the essential freedoms! It should never be taxed.

It is just so regressive. Next you will tell me Europe has a very high petrol tax.

We had leaflets pushed through our door calling for revolution!
They were planning to lay in wait for the garbage car, armed with full (but unpaid for, obivously) bin bags. And then, when they'd least suspect it, everyone would run up and throw their bin bag into the back of the garbage car...

I wanted to be there and film it, but I had to be in work :(

Around Stillorgan there are posters telling people not to vote. We really have all kinds here.

It is just so regressive. Next you will tell me Europe has a very high petrol tax.

Well, how do you pay the wages of the garbage men, the maintenance of the cars, the disposal, the recycling, etc?

Around Stillorgan there are posters telling people not to vote. We really have all kinds here.

Now that you mention it, when the vote on the Lisbon treaty came up, there were posters around Cork with indistinct black-and-white photos and slogans like "They died for your freedom!!! Don't give it up!"

If there had been any party name or phone numbers on any of them, I would have given those idiots a good talking to about respecting freedom.

Now, to answer the OP.... I'm German. You may take your pick on what you think I'm ashamed of.

Now that you mention it, when the vote on the Lisbon treaty came up, there were posters around Cork with indistinct black-and-white photos and slogans like "They died for your freedom!!! Don't give it up!"

If there had been any party name or phone numbers on any of them, I would have given those idiots a good talking to about respecting freedom.

I would have told them to invest in a laser printer and colour ink.

Well, how do you pay the wages of the garbage men, the maintenance of the cars, the disposal, the recycling, etc?

Out of the income tax like most government or contracted by government workers and services.

Out of the income tax like most government or contracted by government workers and services.

I'd rather pay by how much waste I actually put out, rather than some flat figure in my income tax...
I mean, how else can you provide an incentive for people to reduce their waste?

you mean you don't just put the bags out on the road on trash pick up day?

Well greed and death do you pay some form of council rates or any other tax to the local government?

If so that is what pays for them, however, knowing governments no matter the size in Ireland they more than likely do both.

I'd rather pay by how much waste I actually put out, rather than some flat figure in my income tax...
I mean, how else can you provide an incentive for people to reduce their waste?

But this tax is doubly regressive. The poor are least able to afford recyclables and most hurt by the use of disposables. They find themselves in a lose/lose situation just so those who are well off can feel better about themselves. You are certainly correct to be ashamed of this as an Irishmen/woman.

you could always give them a share of the profits of the oil you take out of their land.

I'd give them land and sovereignty. Once they have that, they're on their own.

Actually, I'd probably visit a lot.

I'd give them land and sovereignty. Once they have that, they're on their own.

Actually, I'd probably visit a lot.

Careful they might think your coming to take back the land you gave them.

It is just so regressive. Next you will tell me Europe has a very high petrol tax.

It's not regressive, it is a progressive tax. The rich discard more than the poor. Taxing city residents in proportion to their waste is both progressive and conservationist.

I'm glad we agree on high petrol taxes though. :wink:

But this tax is doubly regressive. The poor are least able to afford recyclables and most hurt by the use of disposables. They find themselves in a lose/lose situation just so those who are well off can feel better about themselves. You are certainly correct to be ashamed of this as an Irishmen/woman.

I'm not Irish, as stated in this very thread.
And how would the poor be less likely to avoid wasting material and rather re-use where possible?
Do you actually pay extra for buying things that can be recycled??? :eek:
How backwards.

But this tax is doubly regressive. The poor are least able to afford recyclables and most hurt by the use of disposables. They find themselves in a lose/lose situation just so those who are well off can feel better about themselves. You are certainly correct to be ashamed of this as an Irishmen/woman.

The poor already have an incentive not to waste anything they can avoid wasting. The fact that they're poor.

It's not regressive, it is a progressive tax. The rich discard more than the poor. Taxing city residents in proportion to their waste is both progressive and conservationist.

I'm glad we agree on high petrol taxes though. :wink:

No, poorer residents have to a pay a larger % of their income in this tax, more over they have less income to use to get around the tax by buying recyclables.
The same thing happens with petrol taxes. The poorer citizens drive older cars that have a worse mileage, making a petrol tax doubly regressive for them because they will the tax will be a larger portion of their income in the first palce and they will need more petrol to travel the same distance.

Now, to answer the OP.... I'm German. You may take your pick on what you think I'm ashamed of.

Why do you feel ashamed? Why should you feel ashamed of something other people did over 60 years ago?

An NSGer. :p

Why do you feel ashamed? Why should you feel ashamed of something other people did over 60 years ago?

Actually, I'm more ashamed of the German reputation of being hard-working, correct, square and perfectly humourless.
But I find it funny how people would immediately assume I was ashamed of what happened during the Nazi era. ;)

Why do you feel ashamed? Why should you feel ashamed of something other people did over 60 years ago?

The worst thing Germans have ever done was only a few days ago.

I'm talking about banning paintball of course.

Actually, I'm more ashamed of the German reputation of being hard-working, correct, square and perfectly humourless.
But I find it funny how people would immediately assume I was ashamed of what happened during the Nazi era. ;)

What? That makes even less sense. Why would you be ashamed of racial stereotypes with no basis in reality? That would be like black people being ashamed because they're stereotyped as lazy. If anything it should work the other way around.

I'm not Irish, as stated in this very thread.
And how would the poor be less likely to avoid wasting material and rather re-use where possible?
Do you actually pay extra for buying things that can be recycled??? :eek:
How backwards.
Yes but in other threads you mentioned you live in Ireland and will become a citizen of Ireland. So I can blame you for Ireland backwardness.
Yes the cost in production on recyclables is often times higher then non recyclables and on recycled items. that's why business often offer packaging and the like in non recyclables.
Unless of course you introduce yet another regressive tax to counter balance the cost.


[QUOTE=Ifreann;14788896]The poor already have an incentive not to waste anything they can avoid wasting. The fact that they're poor.

So your suggest is the poor should live in filth how enlightened of you.

No, poorer residents have to a pay a larger % of their income in this tax,
Really? And how do you know this? You don't even know how much the bin tax is.
more over they have less income to use to get around the tax by buying recyclables.
Why would buying recyclable products and products that produce less waste cost more?
Yes but in other threads you mentioned you live in Ireland and will become a citizen of Ireland. So I can blame you for Ireland backwardness.
Quite ridiculous.
Yes the cost in production on recyclables is often times higher then non recyclables and on recycled items. that's why business often offer packaging and the like in non recyclables.
Unless of course you introduce yet another regressive tax to counter balance the cost.
When was the last time you performed a survey on the price difference between recyclable and non-recyclable products in Ireland?



So your suggest is the poor should live in filth how enlightened of you.
Your ability to misread my words is impressive. I'm forced to wonder if you and I are in fact speaking the same language.

You see, if one makes an effort to minimize how much waste is left over from the products they use, one will have less waste overall. Now, can you explain to us all how having less waste in your household will lead to living in filth? Will the sheer evil of this awful 'regressive' tax cause filth to spontaneously appear in the homes of the poor?

Actually, I'm more ashamed of the German reputation of being hard-working, correct, square and perfectly humourless.
But I find it funny how people would immediately assume I was ashamed of what happened during the Nazi era. ;)

Well I hoped I made you laugh then.

And what exactly would be wrong with being thought of as people from Germany are usually more efficient then other people. Especially when I go to Germany and see much better efficiency then my own fucking country which can't even organise themselves to get people 10 kms down the road on time.

No, poorer residents have to a pay a larger % of their income in this tax, more over they have less income to use to get around the tax by buying recyclables.
The same thing happens with petrol taxes. The poorer citizens drive older cars that have a worse mileage, making a petrol tax doubly regressive for them because they will the tax will be a larger portion of their income in the first palce and they will need more petrol to travel the same distance.

I call bullshit on that.
Nobody is paying more for buying "recyclables". I'm not even sure what you mean by the term.

If you buy tins of food, you can either throw them in the normal bin, or recycle them.
If you use kitchen foil, you can either throw it away or reuse it.
If you buy bottles of milk or soda, you can recycle them.
There is no extra levy on packaging material that can be recycled. If there is where you are, you should certainly take action against that.

And I've got no problem with petrol taxes. I take the bus, or walk.

Really? And how do you know this? You don't even know how much the bin tax is.

does it get more expensive with income ?
If no then it is regressive.

Why would buying recyclable products and products that produce less waste cost more?

Because if they did not the non recyclables would not be on the market now would they ?Even more so in the current political climate that that favors recyclables.

Yes the cost in production on recyclables is often times higher then non recyclables and on recycled items. that's why business often offer packaging and the like in non recyclables.
Unless of course you introduce yet another regressive tax to counter balance the cost.


Can you provide a single example of a product that costs more in recyclable packaging than in non-recyclable? Just one?

does it get more expensive with income ?
If no then it is regressive.

How is it regressive when I pay for my waste, rather than for my neighbour being a pig with his?

I call bullshit on that.
Nobody is paying more for buying "recyclables". I'm not even sure what you mean by the term.

If you buy tins of food, you can either throw them in the normal bin, or recycle them.
If you use kitchen foil, you can either throw it away or reuse it.
If you buy bottles of milk or soda, you can recycle them.
There is no extra levy on packaging material that can be recycled. If there is where you are, you should certainly take action against that.

And I've got no problem with petrol taxes. I take the bus, or walk.

You can reuse big mac wrappers ??? the plastic you wrap your meat in bring it home from the store ? The old worn out jacket that is no longer wearable and covered with mildew.
If non recyclables were more expensive then there would be no need to establish a bin tax to as the cost of the non recyclable would already provide the same incentive that you assert the bin tax provides.

Can you provide a single example of a product that costs more in recyclable packaging than in non-recyclable? Just one?

The Cling wrap you wrap you meat in.
Is there even an alternative to that ?

You can reuse big mac wrappers ??? the plastic you wrap your meat in bring it home from the store ? The old worn out jacket that is no longer wearable and covered with mildew.
If non recyclables were more expensive then there would be no need to establish a bin tax to as the cost of the non recyclable would already provide the same incentive that you assert the bin tax provides.

Big Mac wrappers are cardboard, which can be recycled.
You cannot recycle the wrapping from the meat, but you can recycle the tray it's in.
You can recycle clothes, not matter what their state.

You forget people's sheer lazyness. If you don't provide a financial incentive to recycle, they will keep using just one bin for everything.

The Cling wrap you wrap you meat in.
Is there even an alternative to that ?

There is. In Germany, most shops use wax paper to wrap the meat.

does it get more expensive with income ?
If no then it is regressive.
The tax isn't related to income at all, its related to how much waste one produces.


Because if they did not the non recyclables would not be on the market now would they ?Even more so in the current political climate that that favors recyclables.
Silly, there are more considerations in purchasing something than the cost.

There is. In Germany, most shops use wax paper to wrap the meat.

Which cost more then cling wrap and is less hygienic.
Add a new dimension to the regressive tax cause the poor to pay more for food and be sick and miss more days of work.

The Cling wrap you wrap you meat in.
Is there even an alternative to that ?

Cling wrap, like plastic bags, are recyclable.

What events have made you ashamed of your country?

Eehhh....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Fontana_massacre , after almost 40 years our judiciary wasn't able to find the responsible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giulio_Andreotti not getting jailed for his mafia links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi being still alive, free, rich and on the seat of power.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naufragio_della_F174 (Sinking of the F174 aka Porto Palo Massacre: sadly in italian only, the worst sinking in the Mediterranean since WW2, 289 casualties), the Italian cabinets almost ignored it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_massacre, 85 people killed, italian secret services involved in both bombing and cover-up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustica_disaster, lybian, italian and NATO air forces involved, huge cover-ups from italian military (and it could even be that the Ramstein disaster was engineered to prevent two Frecce Tricolori pilots from testifying about it).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzo_Baldoni, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliana_Sgrena, the whole management of the Baldoni affair and of the killing of the italian agent who was taking the freed Sgrena to the Baghdad airport.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Cermis, when the italian government bowed to USAF without even enforcing tight restrictions for military flights on the italian territory.

etc, etc...

:(

Which cost more then cling wrap and is less hygienic.

When did you last buy wax paper in Germany? How do you know its less hygienic?

Which cost more then cling wrap and is less hygienic.
Add a new dimension to the regressive tax cause the poor to pay more for food and be sick and miss more days of work.

Actually, I believe it costs less, if the price of wax paper and cling film in the supermarket is anything to go by.
And how would it be less hygienic? Do you seriously see the German government approving anything that's in any way less hygienic than the previous solution? You're talking about the world's number 1 nation of hypochondriacs here, in case you're not aware.

What? That makes even less sense. Why would you be ashamed of racial stereotypes with no basis in reality? That would be like black people being ashamed because they're stereotyped as lazy. If anything it should work the other way around.

I never said it was an undeserved reputation, did I? ;)

Well I hoped I made you laugh then.

And what exactly would be wrong with being thought of as people from Germany are usually more efficient then other people. Especially when I go to Germany and see much better efficiency then my own fucking country which can't even organise themselves to get people 10 kms down the road on time.

It creates a rather particular atmosphere in the country... not a good one, I find.
Some people thrive in it, I personally love a good dose of chaos now and then.

The tax isn't related to income at all, its related to how much waste one produces.

Precisely. While a rich person might throw away more waste, they will never throw away enough waste to make up how the tax is part of their total income compared to someone who is poor. It is the same situation as sales tax, rich people do by more, but the sales tax is not a large of a part of the total income for a rich person as it is for a poor person.


Silly, there are more considerations in purchasing something than the cost.

When you can not afford anything else the cost is the only consideration.
Your contempt for the poor is great.

Actually, I believe it costs less, if the price of wax paper and cling film in the supermarket is anything to go by.
And how would it be less hygienic? Do you seriously see the German government approving anything that's in any way less hygienic than the previous solution? You're talking about the world's number 1 nation of hypochondriacs here, in case you're not aware.

Here it is 1 cents per yard for cling wrap and 5 cents per yard of wax paper.

I never said it was an undeserved reputation, did I? ;)

Well, I've been to Germany and the people there were about as friendly as you can get. I suppose I have to defer to an actual German's opinions though.

Also this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgqeBcdbFJ4) (warning; cartoonish gore) kills the 'Germans have no sense of humour' dead.

Precisely. While a rich person might throw away more waste, they will never throw away enough waste to make up how the tax is part of their total income compared to someone who is poor. It is the same situation as sales tax, rich people do by more, but the sales tax is not a large of a part of the total income for a rich person as it is for a poor person.


When you can not afford anything else the cost is the only consideration.
Your contempt for the poor is great.

This tax isn't about making rich and poor more equal. It's about personal responsibility and paying for the waste you produce.
Poor people can keep those payments just as low as rich people.

Here it is 1 cents per yard for cling wrap and 5 cents per yard of wax paper.

And here it isn't.
If your country artificially keeps the price of recyclable packaging high, that's really your problem not ours, is it?

Well, I've been to Germany and the people there were about as friendly as you can get. I suppose I have to defer to an actual German's opinions though.

Also this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgqeBcdbFJ4) (warning; cartoonish gore) kills the 'Germans have no sense of humour' dead.

I got to admit the Germans are fun as hell.
Fun to drink with, after their first week in the states they stop bitching about American beer unless I bring it up. All and all the Germans are a good people.
Which is why I propose we blame the Holocaust on the French form now on.

And here it isn't.
If your country artificially keeps the price of recyclable packaging high, that's really your problem not ours, is it?

I suspect its the other way around. After all between the US and (lets just say Europe since your uncomfortable with Irish) Europe who is more know for regulation and taxes ?? Both of which means to artificially affect a price.

This tax isn't about making rich and poor more equal. It's about personal responsibility and paying for the waste you produce.
Poor people can keep those payments just as low as rich people.

Just as low is exactly why it is a regressive tax. 100 euro for a poor person is much more difficult to come by then 100 euros for a rich person and represents a greater % of the income for the poor person.

I suspect its the other way around. After all between the US and (lets just say Europe since your uncomfortable with Irish) Europe who is more know for regulation and taxes ?? Both of which means to artificially affect a price.

Which sort of begs the question why Germany never even started using cling film to wrap meat until sometime in the 90s? And still hasn't caught on anywhere except in some supermarkets?
Do you think people became less environmentally aware, and therefore companies decided they could now go for the cheaper option cause nobody would mind? And in all those decades beforehand they had to go with the more expensive option, because people in the 60s were so concerned about environmental impact?

And here it isn't.
If your country artificially keeps the price of recyclable packaging high, that's really your problem not ours, is it?

But wax paper isn't recyclable. Fat deposits in the paper would gum up the machines for recycling paper, which is why you can't recycle paper products that have been used in food packaging.

Wax paper, however, is biodegradable. And, as I said before, cling wrap is recyclable. So, if greed and death is correct about the relative prices, the recyclable material is five times cheaper than the biodegradable material.

Just as low is exactly why it is a regressive tax. 100 euro for a poor person is much more difficult to come by then 100 euros for a rich person and represents a greater % of the income for the poor person.

So you're saying it's unfair because there's less incentive for the rich guy to cut back on waste and to recycle?

In that case, your system is even less fair, because it provides no incentive for neither rich nor poor to reduce waste.

But wax paper isn't recyclable. Fat deposits in the paper would gum up the machines for recycling paper, which is why you can't recycle paper products that have been used in food packaging.

Wax paper, however, is biodegradable. And, as I said before, cling wrap is recyclable. So, if greed and death is correct about the relative prices, the recyclable material is five times cheaper than the biodegradable material.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. There's 3 systems here : regular waste (which you pay for), recyclables (which are free) and composting waste (which you get paid for).
So wax paper will actually get you some money, rather than cost you.

When you can not afford anything else the cost is the only consideration.
Your contempt for the poor is great.
You continue to misinterpret everything I say. Nice work. You suggested that if recyclable materials weren't more expensive than the alternative then non-recyclable materials shouldn't exist. What you fail to understand is that these non-recyclable materials, whatever it is they are, may fill some other niche, and thus continue to turn a profit for whoever sells them.

Really, this is very basic stuff.
I suspect its the other way around. After all between the US and (lets just say Europe since your uncomfortable with Irish) Europe who is more know for regulation and taxes ?? Both of which means to artificially affect a price.

So European governments are artificially making recyclable materials less expensive? Is this a bad thing?

But wax paper isn't recyclable. Fat deposits in the paper would gum up the machines for recycling paper, which is why you can't recycle paper products that have been used in food packaging.

Wax paper, however, is biodegradable. And, as I said before, cling wrap is recyclable. So, if greed and death is correct about the relative prices, the recyclable material is five times cheaper than the biodegradable material.

Interestingly this site say you can not recycle it.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/598077/can_you_recycle_cellophane_wrap.html?cat=6

Interestingly this site say you can not recycle it.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/598077/can_you_recycle_cellophane_wrap.html?cat=6

Cling wrap is different from cellophane wrap.

The former is used for food packaging. The latter is commonly used as a decorative wrapping for flowers.

Depending on your facilities, cellophane may also be recyclable.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2282329_determine-what-plastics-recyclable.html

Sorry, I should have been more clear. There's 3 systems here : regular waste (which you pay for), recyclables (which are free) and composting waste (which you get paid for).
So wax paper will actually get you some money, rather than cost you.

Lucky you - seriously. It's a postcode lottery in the UK recycling, though they are looking to change things. Where we used to live we had a local voluntary recycling service that came round and picked up basic recycling (though there were quite a few things they couldn't do). This was run by a local recycling/ecology centre, though the local council I believe did pay them. However we moved literally just down the road and we have no recycling service at all. If we want to recyle we have to take our waste to a recylcing center about 20 minutes walk away - which not having a car limits the amount we can actually recycle.

Not having a garden, recycling biodegradables is just a non-starter.

Fill in the Blanks, NSG!

I was thinking about this the other day when they had a news story regarding the Cronulla Race Riots on a current affairs show. That day made me, for the first time in my life, totally ashamed to be an Australian. To see groups of Australians attacking anyone different, and to hear politicians and other personalities daring to support or defend their actions in any way, or blaming the victims for not being "Australian" enough sickened me. To hear friends and relatives defending the actions made me feel even worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots

What events have made you ashamed of your country? If you have never felt this, why not? Is there a case to be made that you can't help where you are born, so it's silly to feel any way other than neutral about it?

To feel shame or pride in your country! My what a strange thing?:D

Cling wrap is different from cellophane wrap.

The former is used for food packaging. The latter is commonly used as a decorative wrapping for flowers.

Depending on your facilities, cellophane may also be recyclable.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2282329_determine-what-plastics-recyclable.html

okay. just so much easier to toss them anyways.

okay. just so much easier to toss them anyways.

No. Not really.

It takes no more physical effort to throw something in a recycling bin than in a garbage bin.

But garbage and landfills do cost us more in terms of land, I think. And many corporations are finding it cheaper to not create as much waste.

I'm ashamed to be Galician. We were in the part of Poland that was divided between the Soviet Union and Germany, but at the same time Ukranian Galicians were considered Aryan and allowed to serve in the SS.

So, which side do I support? The one that tried to exterminate my ancestors in the Holodomor or the one that tried to exterminate my other ancestors in the Holocaust?

I'm ashamed to be Galician. We were in the part of Poland that was divided between the Soviet Union and Germany, but at the same time Ukranian Galicians were considered Aryan and allowed to serve in the SS.

So, which side do I support? The one that tried to exterminate my ancestors in the Holodomor or the one that tried to exterminate my other ancestors in the Holocaust?

Umm support none of them?

No. Not really.

It takes no more physical effort to throw something in a recycling bin than in a garbage bin.

But garbage and landfills do cost us more in terms of land, I think. And many corporations are finding it cheaper to not create as much waste.

Garbage bin ?? nonono I am tossing it out the window.

Garbage bin ?? nonono I am tossing it out the window.

Which costs no more effort than tossing it into a recycling bin.

Which costs no more effort than tossing it into a recycling bin.

Correct provided I don't sort what I recycle. that is a good idea just stuff my bag of garbage in which ever recycle bin is the most empty. That way I can be lazy and feel good about the environment too.

I don't really subscribe to the notion of 'collective guilt' or to 'collective achievement', personally, so no, I've not ever been ashamed of America, or felt guilty for being an American.

I like what the first President Bush had to say on the subject: "I will never apologize for the United States of America, ever."

I am ashamed to be part of the Spanish government. :(

I am ashamed to be part of the Spanish government. :(

Help me over throw your government then. It is your moral duty.

Right now, I am ashamed to be me. I've not done anything wrong, but it's still there.


More relevantly, I am sometimes ashamed to be a human, knowing the great evil we do to the world. More often I refuse to take any part in collective shaming because I don't see how it can logically follow that I can be blamed for something I have not done or endorsed. Just because I come from the same rough geographical location is inherently meaningless.

Help me over throw your government then. It is your moral duty.

I am ashamed to be a part of it, but I sure as hell won't help a gringo overthrow my own government.

The Basque will take care of that.

I am ashamed to be a part of it, but I sure as hell won't help a gringo overthrow my own government.

The Basque will take care of that.

but I want to overthrow your government for the good of the basque and all Spaniards. I will only hold power until the Spanish government is fixed.
And maybe expand to fix the rest of the EU too.

Help me over throw your government then. It is your moral duty.

What's up with you and conquering Europe?

What ever happened to the middle East?


Nanatsu, why are you ashamed of being part of the Spanish government?

but I want to overthrow your government for the good of the basque and all Spaniards. I will only hold power until the Spanish government is fixed.
And maybe expand to fix the rest of the EU too.

....

You have left me speechless, Greedy.:eek:

Now, I am ashamed to be speechless like this.

Nanatsu, why are you ashamed of being part of the Spanish government?

*jumps RoI and bags him, dragging the sack away and slowly singing*

You ask too many direct questions. You're sleeping with the fishies tonight.

<_<

>_>

._.

What's up with you and conquering Europe?

What ever happened to the middle East?


Nanatsu, why are you ashamed of being part of the Spanish government?
Europe is on the way toward conquering the Mideast.
....

You have left me speechless, Greedy.:eek:

I have your support then ?

I have your support then ?

Absolutamente no!:mad:

Absolutamente no!:mad:

I'll make it worth your while. you can govern the Providences of norther Spain. So you can learn the Basque language while being their governess.

I'll make it worth your while. you can govern the Providences of norther Spain. So you can learn the Basque language while being their governess.

Provinces, Greedy, provinces.

Provinces, Greedy, provinces.

Deal.

*jumps RoI and bags him, dragging the sack away and slowly singing*

You ask too many direct questions. You're sleeping with the fishies tonight.

<_<

>_>

._.
Aww, shit. Again?
Europe is on the way toward conquering the Mideast.


No, Iraq is the way.

Deal.

No deal, amigo. I get Texas, then I'll help you overthrow my government.

Aww, shit. Again?


No, Iraq is the way.

Mideast conquest has historically be easier coming through turkey. We are taking the wrong angle at current.

No deal, amigo. I get Texas, then I'll help you overthrow my government.

I was planning to divide Texas up seems to be the only way to control those nuts.

Mideast conquest has historically be easier coming through turkey. We are taking the wrong angle at current.

Indeed. Even the Greeks and the Romans knew this. Conquer Turkey and the rest is a breeze.


Now, RoI, you should be ashamed of not knowing this simple historical fact. To the gallows!

Mideast conquest has historically be easier coming through turkey. We are taking the wrong angle at current.

There's no need to take out the rest of Europe.


Besides, you couldn't if the EU got about to showing a united military front. We would pwn you.

Europe is on the way toward conquering the Mideast.

I think you got that backwards.

I am ashamed to be part of the Spanish government. :(

It's because Zapatero is Spanish for 'Chamberlain', isn't it?

There's no need to take out the rest of Europe.


Besides, you couldn't if the EU got about to showing a united military front. We would pwn you.

You 2 are pwning a mighty derailment of this thread.

Indeed. Even the Greeks and the Romans knew this. Conquer Turkey and the rest is a breeze.


Now, RoI, you should be ashamed of not knowing this simple historical fact. To the gallows!

You're gonna kill me twice in the same night?

It's because Zapatero is Spanish for 'Chamberlain', isn't it?

Zapatero is actually Spanish for shoe maker.

You're gonna kill me twice in the same night?

Apparently your death is in high demand today. Third time's a charm, still.

You're gonna kill me twice in the same night?

That's the way I roll, Kentian.

You 2 are pwning a mighty derailment of this thread.

True, but g_n_d should be ashamed of himself.

True, but g_n_d should be ashamed of himself.

All of us, for going along with it. *nod*

Apparently your death is in high demand today. Third time's a charm, still.

ffs_


What did I ever do to you?

ffs_


What did I ever do to you?


You've done nothing to me personally, Isen. I'm just commenting on the situation.

You've done nothing to me personally, Isen. I'm just commenting on the situation.

I think he just wants you to kill him a 3rd time, Jordi.:tongue:

There's no need to take out the rest of Europe.


Besides, you couldn't if the EU got about to showing a united military front. We would pwn you.

That wont happen. I would send the Irish and the UK at each others throats by offering to return northern Ireland.
the French would surrender to the boy scout troop I secretly have stationed there.
the Germans would be thrown into civil war as I promise to the let the whole area be ruled by the ethnically Turkish population.
Poland would be dealt with by splitting it with the Russians.
Benelux... LoL just Lol.

You've done nothing to me personally, Isen. I'm just commenting on the situation.

Fair enough.


The Invisible Pink Unicorn isn't real. Ha, got you back.

That wont happen. I would send the Irish and the UK at each others throats by offering to return northern Ireland.
the French would surrender to the boy scout troop I secretly have stationed there.
the Germans would be thrown into civil war as I promise to the let the whole area be ruled by the ethnically Turkish population.
Poland would be dealt with by splitting it with the Russians.
Benelux... LoL just Lol.

You're one sick fuck.:eek2:

I think he just wants you to kill him a 3rd time, Jordi.:tongue:
Why? Why would anyone want to die 3 times?
That wont happen. I would send the Irish and the UK at each others throats by offering to return northern Ireland.
the French would surrender to the boy scout troop I secretly have stationed there.
the Germans would be thrown into civil war as I promise to the let the whole area be ruled by the ethnically Turkish population.
Poland would be dealt with by splitting it with the Russians.
Benelux... LoL just Lol.
Lol.

You're one sick fuck.:eek2:

but I am doing it for the good of the world.

Fair enough.


The Invisible Pink Unicorn isn't real. Ha, got you back.

What. First, she is so, you just don't have sufficient faith in her holy pinkness. Second, you're going to hell. Invisible firey hell. I have faith in this occuring.

I was even going to say anything nasty about you Isen, but you're ....

You're an atheist.

Why? Why would anyone want to die 3 times?

Because 3rd. time's the charm? Maybe?

but I am doing it for the good of the world.

Regardless, you're one sick fuck and I am truly honored to have met you. Sick fuck. <_<:fluffle:

What. First, she is so, you just don't have sufficient faith in her holy pinkness. Second, you're going to hell. Invisible firey hell. I have faith in this occuring.

I was even going to say anything nasty about you Isen, but you're ....

You're an atheist.
No, I am a follower of the one true religion.
Because 3rd. time's the charm? Maybe?
Possibly.

Regardless, you're one sick fuck and I am truly honored to have met you. Sick fuck. <_<:fluffle:

Why thank you.

Zapatero is actually Spanish for shoe maker.

Whoops. See, that's what I get for going with a figurative translation, instead of a literal one. Oh well, I'm sure you can see how that mistake might be made.

Zapatero is actually Spanish for shoe maker.

and here I thought you said you were a Zapatista.

and here I thought you said you were a Zapatista.

Zapatistas are from Latin America, chief.;)

Zapatistas are from Latin America, chief.;)

You don't have family in Latin America ?
you know the current leader of the Zappatistas was born from Spanish migrants fleeing Franco ?
That so easily could have been you.
Also you mentioned dating a Mexican guy for like 3 years.

That wont happen. I would send the Irish and the UK at each others throats by offering to return northern Ireland.
Silly, nobody cares about that anymore.

Now, to answer the OP.... I'm German. You may take your pick on what you think I'm ashamed of.

Yeah, you have some fucked up politicians at the moment.

Not really ashamed of anything, really. I don't let external factors over which I have no control drag me down, as much as some people think that we should all feel shame about that sort of stuff. Especially people like me.

Silly, nobody cares about that anymore.

The British redeploying security forces just in case will give me enough time to conquer Continental Europe.
And if the UK wants to stand alone against continental Europe that's their prerogative.
Where as my Peace deal will offer them give them peace and half the EU's gold reserves.

And if the UK wants to stand alone against continental Europe that's their prerogative.


Meh, not unheard of...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_System
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupied_Europe

The British redeploying security forces just in case will give me enough time to conquer Continental Europe.
And if the UK wants to stand alone against continental Europe that's their prerogative.

You're really not very familiar with European history, are you...

(Judging be what you've posted on this thread, you're really not familiar with European now-ness, either - so I shouldn't be surprised).

You're really not very familiar with European history, are you...

(Judging be what you've posted on this thread, you're really not familiar with European now-ness, either - so I shouldn't be surprised).
You're not really verry familiar with greed_n_death are you?

Henry VIII. His petty separation from Rome caused far more strife over the next decades than any gain in his ability to divorce and rule a church. In fact, the loss of many great buildings, scholarship, and almost every manuscript of music of the 15th century certainly outweighs any gain. And that many now seem to have an odd admiration for him.

Also you mentioned dating a Mexican guy for like 3 years.

Do not mention that mistake to me.:mad:
I wasted 3 years of my life...:(

Do not mention that mistake to me.:mad:
I wasted 3 years of my life...:(
Oooh, that's a 5th of my life. 3 years is a long time. Longest relationship I've ever had was 3 months.

Fill in the Blanks, NSG!

I was thinking about this the other day when they had a news story regarding the Cronulla Race Riots on a current affairs show. That day made me, for the first time in my life, totally ashamed to be an Australian. To see groups of Australians attacking anyone different, and to hear politicians and other personalities daring to support or defend their actions in any way, or blaming the victims for not being "Australian" enough sickened me. To hear friends and relatives defending the actions made me feel even worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots

What events have made you ashamed of your country? If you have never felt this, why not? Is there a case to be made that you can't help where you are born, so it's silly to feel any way other than neutral about it?

I've never felt shame or pride at any nationality. There's not much I can do about them personally. A mixture of paperwork, lineage, and residence gives me roughly equal right to claim to be English, Irish, or American. I feel neither shame nor pride at any of those.

When arguing with staunch right-wingers I tell them that they have no right to be proud of being American. They didn't earn it. I did, but the test was really easy, so I'm not bragging.

The closest I come to pride in nationality is pride at being from New York City. The closest I feel to its opposite is shame at living in the suburbs, because while it is a material success, deep down it feels like failing to live in the City.

If it's not something you did, then pride or shame don't enter into it.

Ashamed to be human.

Humans lay vast stretches of our home, the Earth, to waste. If I were not human, I might grant humans the benefit of the doubt, for the waste of life and of potential life they cause ... but being human I know, I have read and I have heard and within my knowledge of economy and of history I understand, just what trivial and selfish reasons humans have for killing and removed the livelihood of our fellow creatures, and destroying natural beauty to replace it with monuments to our own vanity.

We're shit, and I'm ashamed to be one of us. I am ashamed to be human.

Thanks for asking.
"What a blind, narrow view." What a condescending, self-loathing git you are. If you really feel that way then go kill yourself.

I hope mankind someday makes the deserts bloom. Fuck the tortises and horny lizzards that hide under rocks during the day, they might prefer the change anyway. I hope to have a hand in this dream and get a few statues or a nice monument out of it.

It creates a rather particular atmosphere in the country... not a good one, I find.
Some people thrive in it, I personally love a good dose of chaos now and then.

Well all I know is that if the German's that ad colonised SA had more of an influence in this state than the British then I wouldn't have to worry about the buses and trains being late 90% of the time.

"What a blind, narrow view." What a condescending, self-loathing git you are. If you really feel that way then go kill yourself.

I hope mankind someday makes the deserts bloom. Fuck the tortises and horny lizzards that hide under rocks during the day, they might prefer the change anyway. I hope to have a hand in this dream and get a few statues or a nice monument out of it.

I don't even know where to begin, so let's just make this simple: stop the personal attacks. You may also want to enjoy this brief 24-hour cooling off period, as this isn't the first time you've so kindly suggested someone go kill themselves.

I am ashamed of America for various things. Putting wealth and faux-patriotism above humanity, for starters.

I am ashamed of America for various things. Putting wealth and faux-patriotism above humanity, for starters.

you got it reversed. Acquisition of material wealth is real. Humanity is largely imaginary to begin with.

you got it reversed. Acquisition of material wealth is real. Humanity is largely imaginary to begin with.

Wealth is imaginary. Things are only worth what people think up in their mind. For instance, most people consider gold to be of worth. There were those in history, however, that just saw it as metal, but surely thought something like shells were worth a lot. The acquisition of material wealth is what has caused more problems for humanity, than anything else, including religion.

Humanity, on the other hand, is what binds all humans together. Its the commonality that we all share. It is the only real thing that humans have in life. :)

Wealth is imaginary. Things are only worth what people think up in their mind. For instance, most people consider gold to be of worth. There were those in history, however, that just saw it as metal, but surely thought something like shells were worth a lot. The acquisition of material wealth is what has caused more problems for humanity, than anything else, including religion.

Humanity, on the other hand, is what binds all humans together. Its the commonality that we all share. It is the only real thing that humans have in life. :)

I was measuring material wealth in goods and services.
Not to mention in serving humanity via volunteer work you benefit your society and humanity much less than if you had got a job made an income and and spent it.

The greater good always resides in greed.

Wealth is imaginary. Things are only worth what people think up in their mind. For instance, most people consider gold to be of worth. There were those in history, however, that just saw it as metal, but surely thought something like shells were worth a lot. The acquisition of material wealth is what has caused more problems for humanity, than anything else, including religion.

Humanity, on the other hand, is what binds all humans together. Its the commonality that we all share. It is the only real thing that humans have in life. :)

Gold has had value for well over 5000 years. I think it's safe to say Gold has been around as a valuable metal for all of our recorded history.

Assigning value to things is deeply entrenched in the human mind. There is no way in my opinion to separate that from our mind. As for Humanity we would not progress to our full potential without assigning value to things and actions. Material wealth is an important motivational tool in progressing Humanity.

Fill in the Blanks, NSG!

I was thinking about this the other day when they had a news story regarding the Cronulla Race Riots on a current affairs show. That day made me, for the first time in my life, totally ashamed to be an Australian. To see groups of Australians attacking anyone different, and to hear politicians and other personalities daring to support or defend their actions in any way, or blaming the victims for not being "Australian" enough sickened me. To hear friends and relatives defending the actions made me feel even worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots

What events have made you ashamed of your country? If you have never felt this, why not? Is there a case to be made that you can't help where you are born, so it's silly to feel any way other than neutral about it?

The Pacific Solution, that is all.

These two.

... Human. :wink:

Um....Yeah...Just watch the News on any given night, lol...

At least the European Empires didnt have 24-hour news networks, :rolleyes:

Why would I be ashamed of my country? I had no control or input in any of its less savory actions, nor am I responsible for the vast stupidity of its populace.

. . . in a position in which the person two heartbeats away from the Presidency is the Wicked Witch of the West, i.e., San Fran Nan Pelosi. :rolleyes:

. . . in a position in which the person two heartbeats away from the Presidency is the Wicked Witch of the West, i.e., San Fran Nan Pelosi. :rolleyes:

Well, it's not as if Obama is exactly sickly and old and frail, is it? So it's quite a bit more than two heartbeats. I'd say it's enough heartbeats so that Biden not even be concerned, let alone you.

Perhaps you are really ashamed to be in a position where you can't decide which of the two you are more afraid of?

White American Male because apparantly just by being born I have managed to oppress the whole world.

I found a dollar once and didn't go door to door to ask who it belonged to. :(

. . . in a position in which the person two heartbeats away from the Presidency is the Wicked Witch of the West, i.e., San Fran Nan Pelosi. :rolleyes:

Your metaphors are beyond strained, now.

I feel no shame. Yet.