NationStates Jolt Archive

Apparently, like video games, paintball and laser tag are the root of all violence in society and therefore Germany is justifiably trying to ban them in the wake of a school shooting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8041320.stm

I... well... scape goat, anyone?

Lol.

It is worth noting that the immediate reaction of the parties in charge was "Our gun laws are perfectly good as they are, no problems there*."

But... Playing tag for adults is clearly dangerous.

lulz.

* They are. Actually, they're a bit overkillish (Not that I desire any firearms other than replicas of 16th- 18th century muzzle loaders - for which I do, AFAIK, not need a permit. If home defence was a concern of mine, I wouldn't buy a modern firearm, I'd emigrate to a first world country. But I digress).

Germany, Germany. So smart, yet in ways so evidently fucking stupid.

How incredibly stupid and phailish.

Germany, Germany. So smart[...]I've yet to see proof of this.

But... Playing tag for adults is clearly dangerous.
That's not true. Simulating killings is perfectly acceptable if you're using swords or you're on skis and using a real gun.

Germany, Germany. So smart, yet in ways so evidently fucking stupid.

I think that's more of a conditioning from two historical ass-whoopings that Germany received than any stupidity on their part. Sort of like how kids recoil from anything that flies after getting stung a few times.

That's not true. Simulating killings is perfectly acceptable if you're using swords or you're on skis and using a real gun.

Haven't seen you for a while. How are you?

Haven't seen you for a while. How are you?
Old... =(

Anyway, my beef with this is primarily that:
Berlin also plans to ban games like paintball and laser-tag that simulate killing on the grounds that they trivialise and encourage violence.
Simulating killing has a long and proud history. To pretend that it's unacceptable when it comes to hurling paint at people with something that resembles a gun is outright hipocrisy.
I've seen a number of comparisons tossed about, none which really apply: biathlon, boxing, formula 1 racing...
Biathlon simulates trekking across difficult, snowy terrain and then sniping your enemies that conceal most of their bodies. But you're not actually shooting at something that is or even looks human, so technically you can argue that the situation is different.
Formula 1 racing encourages speeding. But you can argue that no individuals actually take part unlike in paintball.
Boxing isn't about simulating anything. It's about actively assaulting someone, under consent (least that's how it is in Germany. Getting a piercing or a tattoo is assault with consent as well, which is why parental consent is required for minors). But it's not actually about killing people with weapons, so you can argue that comparison doesn't apply either.
Then there's fencing. The differences between fencing and paintball are paintball is a teamsport while fencing is not, fencing is more brutal and personal, the weapons used are different, and fencing is an olympic event. Even better, back in the days before they had electricity, they used friggin' paint to see if you hit someone in fencing.
The arguments used to vilify paintball apply to fencing as well, but that hasn't made it onto the list at all, showing this is a hypocritical act of discrimination on behalf of fun-hating old men. I was so pissed I sent one of them a relatively polite email listing my reasons why I thought he crossed a line.

This is a really silly idea. Knee jerk politics never produces good laws.

Haber-Bosch process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber-Bosch_Process): If there was food on your plate, thank a German.
Tasted like smoked trout. Much of an ammonia eater?

That's not true. Simulating killings is perfectly acceptable if you're using swords or you're on skis and using a real gun.

Or when they're animals and you're not simulating the killing. :p

Or if they did WTC.

Tasted like smoked trout. Much of an ammonia eater?Can't come up with anything better to slander the H-B process? I'm not surprised.

Or when they're animals and you're not simulating the killing. :pOr when it's humans and you're not simulating the assault, aka boxing. Hypocritical thing is, paintball, the way it's played in the Deutsche Paintball Liga, is ethically indistinguishable from epee fencing, save perhaps fencing's distinct lack of teamwork.

So it's really paintball and not Marylin Manson that's responsible for the fall of civilization? Good to know.

Oh, I'm not slandering it. It's useful, no doubt. I'm just dispelling your apparent notion that the world's continued existence hinges solely on Haber's legacy and I would be starving without him.

If not he, someone else would have invented it. Even if no one did, some other someone else's invention would be used in its place.

Germany had its share of inventions, just like Britain, US, Russia, France, China...So did you actually have point to begin with? Because I believe that SaintB was trying to provide evidence to the first part of "Germany, Germany. So smart, yet in ways so evidently fucking stupid".

Your point seems to have been the evidence provided is faulty, but there are, nevertheless, good things to come out of Germany.

Oh, and best German invention ever:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/ulteriormotives/KRaygun3.png

Why would you defend someone's assertions that everyone in Germany is an idiot anyway?
To my knowledge, Linker Niederrhein is German, and thus holds a certain right to that opinion.

wow, 3 pages and it hasn't turned into a gun control debate...

However, I have a feeling that this post will make it a gun control thread...

So by their logic (using that word very loosely), does this mean that we can expect the banning of all violent video games in Germany as well? And Nationstates, of course, since we RP wars.

wow, 3 pages and it hasn't turned into a gun control debate...

However, I have a feeling that this post will make it a gun control thread...

People don't kill people with guns. The guns spontaneously fire themselves!

If we let everyone have guns, then not only the baddies will have guns, but more of the baddies will have guns because they're more freely available.

That will do it for sure :D

So by their logic (using that word very loosely), does this mean that we can expect the banning of all violent video games in Germany as well? And Nationstates, of course, since we RP wars.
In a while. It all takes time.

Ah, Germany, setting the bar for overkill since the end of WW II.

and Europe calls the US backwards.

Apparently, like video games, paintball and laser tag are the root of all violence in society and therefore Germany is justifiably trying to ban them in the wake of a school shooting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8041320.stm

I... well... scape goat, anyone?

Paintball, as it's played today, is not really about "killing" your opponent, but capturing a flag and reducing the ability of the other team to do the same, by marking them to remove them from the current game. In scenario/big games, it would be conceivably possible to play the entire game without firing a shot, just completing missions and objectives with stealth.

I completely disagree with this proposed ban.

Paintball, as it's played today, is not really about "killing" your opponent, but capturing a flag and reducing the ability of the other team to do the same, by marking them to remove them from the current game. In scenario/big games, it would be conceivably possible to play the entire game without firing a shot, just completing missions and objectives with stealth.

I completely disagree with this proposed ban.

they have annihilation games too.

At least Germany hasn't banned Aerosoft guns.

and Europe calls the US backwards.The US being backwards doesn't exclude the possibility of other countries being backwards, too.

The US being backwards doesn't exclude the possibility of other countries being backwards, too.

To call someone backwards implies that you are not.
If you are backwards as well it is pot calling the kettle or an unrealistic set of standards for nonbackwardness.

To call someone backwards implies that you are not.
If you are backwards as well it is pot calling the kettle or an unrealistic set of standards for nonbackwardness.No, it implies that someone else is not. Doesn't have to be the country I happen to be from.

So by their logic (using that word very loosely), does this mean that we can expect the banning of all violent video games in Germany as well? And Nationstates, of course, since we RP wars.There's something at the back of my mind that's making me thing that the Reichstag is bent on banning violent video games as well. This is why we supposedly don't pay our MPs very well in the UK -- they're more concerned with filing dodgy expense claims than actually legislating anything and everything in their boredom.

Paintball, as it's played today, is not really about "killing" your opponent, but ... marking them to remove them from the current game.I sense that you may have missed a career as a spin doctor.

Let's not fool ourselves, paintball is about shooting someone else with a gun, but with added objectives to make the team dynamic more interesting. That said, it hardly promotes violence -- especially not when you break for lunch at the same time and chat with each other. I wouldn't say it was anymore likely to promote violence than say self-defence lessons. Maybe less so.

Let's not fool ourselves, paintball is about shooting someone else with a gun, but with added objectives to make the team dynamic more interesting. That said, it hardly promotes violence -- especially not when you break for lunch at the same time and chat with each other. I wouldn't say it was anymore likely to promote violence than say self-defence lessons. Maybe less so.

I think there is a justifiable argument that aggressive behaviour is pretty much part of being human. Things like paintballing are an acceptable way of behaving in that way without anyone getting hurt. I have been involved in martial arts for twenty years, and although it could be seen to be teaching people how to be better at violence, I am convinced that people who have trained in martial arts are actually less likely to start a fight. Anecdotal I know but it is early on Sunday morning and I have just been for a run...

So by their logic (using that word very loosely), does this mean that we can expect the banning of all violent video games in Germany as well? And Nationstates, of course, since we RP wars.Obviously not. Counterstrike is on the list of favorite bannable objects, much like paintball, while similar games aren't, because the people that make the lists have no clue. They just hate the idea of people running around shooting eachother, either virtually or with paint or lasers.

At least Germany hasn't banned Aerosoft guns.No, that would make too much sense, seeing as the guy that pulled off the massacre had an airsoft gun and never played paintball.

and Europe calls the US backwards.

Europe is not a single country.

Apparently, like video games, paintball and laser tag are the root of all violence in society and therefore Germany is justifiably trying to ban them in the wake of a school shooting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8041320.stm

I... well... scape goat, anyone?

People are ridiculous. End of.

There's something at the back of my mind that's making me thing that the Reichstag is bent on banning violent video games as well. This is why we supposedly don't pay our MPs very well in the UK -- they're more concerned with filing dodgy expense claims than actually legislating anything and everything in their boredom.

They've all but. No red blood. In one game the zombies sit down when you "kill" them. Can't play any of the good demos on XBox 360 there either.

Europe is not a single country.

So they will stop trying to use the EU's GDP when claiming to be bigger then us then ?

Europe is not a single country.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2038/2491454324_06b981bc8d.jpg

So they will stop trying to use the EU's GDP when claiming to be bigger then us then ?

Comparing economic positions of the US and Europe Bloc is quite different from claiming all of Europe's policies are reflected in this law in Germany.

They've all but. No red blood. In one game the zombies sit down when you "kill" them. Can't play any of the good demos on XBox 360 there either.It's gotten better. Back when Red Alert and Tiberium Conflict came out, they turned all the people into robots and instead of a squish sound, the German version sounded like someone ran over a can. Unfortunately, the Winnenden massacre has been giving the ban-spammers new ammunition, so things have been looking a bit tighter again.

It's an election year. What exactly did you expect after the recent shootings?

It is only ridiculous how strong the arms' lobby has to be what with all the Schützenvereine throughout Germany when they only go after Painball and Lasertag - which, if I remember correctly, were not lethal?!?

Every time one of the Marks(wo)men win Gold in the Olympics, they're the good guys.
Every time one of the kids goes nuts with daddy's guns, it's tv, movies, video games, and of course, other unrelated fun sports.

Idiots.

It's an election year. What exactly did you expect after the recent shootings?
Wees nich', Softairwaffen verbieten, zum Bleistift. Wär zwar auch bescheuert, würde aber mehr Sinn machen, da ein gewisser Amokläufer tatsächlich so etwas besaß, Paintball hingegen nie legal gespielt haben kann.

It's gotten better. Back when Red Alert and Tiberium Conflict came out, they turned all the people into robots and instead of a squish sound, the German version sounded like someone ran over a can. Unfortunately, the Winnenden massacre has been giving the ban-spammers new ammunition, so things have been looking a bit tighter again.To be fair, that was Westwood's decision. They were ludicrously careful to avoid index'ing. Plenty of other RTSes of the same time didn't do it... No problems.

The best bit was, in any case, the packaging. "A war simulation in a glass case' indeed.

To be fair, that was Westwood's decision. They were ludicrously careful to avoid index'ing. Plenty of other RTSes of the same time didn't do it... No problems.

The best bit was, in any case, the packaging. "A war simulation in a glass case' indeed.
Meh, River Raid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Raid) made it onto the index back in it's day. Standards certainly have changed since then.

Wees nich', Softairwaffen verbieten, zum Bleistift. Wär zwar auch bescheuert, würde aber mehr Sinn machen, da ein gewisser Amokläufer tatsächlich so etwas besaß, Paintball hingegen nie legal gespielt haben kann.
Hast schon Recht, nutzt doch aber alles nichts.
Und hör mir bloß auf mit Softair. Finde ich an sich ja gar nicht so wild, aber dass die Dinger aussehen wie echte Wummen tut ja nun nicht Not, was?
To be fair, that was Westwood's decision. They were ludicrously careful to avoid index'ing. Plenty of other RTSes of the same time didn't do it... No problems.

The best bit was, in any case, the packaging. "A war simulation in a glass case' indeed.
Reminds be of BlueByte's description of their "robot" soldiers in Battle Isle, yet the animations show persons...

It's gotten better. Back when Red Alert and Tiberium Conflict came out, they turned all the people into robots and instead of a squish sound, the German version sounded like someone ran over a can. Unfortunately, the Winnenden massacre has been giving the ban-spammers new ammunition, so things have been looking a bit tighter again.

Ah, I didn't realize things had gotten better. That's really unfortunate things could get worse again. I just can't wait for this generation to age their way out of politics. Maybe some common sense legislation that doesn't randomly punish adult gamers can be drafted.

I was disproportionately angry at the laws when I was in Berlin. The fellow I stayed with had an XBox Live account from Spain, so all these awesome demos I couldn't download were teasing me mercilessly.

Hast schon Recht, nutzt doch aber alles nichts.
Und hör mir bloß auf mit Softair. Finde ich an sich ja gar nicht so wild, aber dass die Dinger aussehen wie echte Wummen tut ja nun nicht Not, was?Jaja, wie gesagt: bescheuert. Aber man hätte es wenigstens nachvollziehen können.
Ah, I didn't realize things had gotten better. That's really unfortunate things could get worse again. I just can't wait for this generation to age their way out of politics. Maybe some common sense legislation that doesn't randomly punish adult gamers can be drafted.War Generation mainly. Hate any idea of playing war (though for some reason actually going to war is ok). What I find hilarious though is that the pacifist Bündis 90/Die Grünen reject the ban.
I was disproportionately angry at the laws when I was in Berlin. The fellow I stayed with had an XBox Live account from Spain, so all these awesome demos I couldn't download were teasing me mercilessly."Tantalizing" really captures what you mean ;)

Jaja, wie gesagt: bescheuert. Aber man hätte es wenigstens nachvollziehen können.
War Generation mainly. Hate any idea of playing war (though for some reason actually going to war is ok). What I find hilarious though is that the pacifist Bündis 90/Die Grünen reject the ban.
"Tantalizing" really captures what you mean ;)


Da stimm ich dir nicht zu. Ich glaube nicht das es an der Kriegsgeneration liegt. Sonst wär der Verbot schon in den 80er in Kraft gesetzt worden.

Ich glaub die jetzigen Übeltäter sind die Nachkriegs Generation, also die '68er Kinder. Die Kinder von der Kriegsgeneration die strikt alles ablehnen was mit ihren Vätern zu tun hatte, in diesen Fall simulierter Krieg in Form von Paintball. Weil es anscheinend Gewaltverherrlichend sein soll. Was anscheinend auch nur Sie, also diese Politikergeneration, als anstossend und Tabu empfinden.

Ich warte einfach auf den Tag wo Deutschland mal normale Politiker kriegt. Ich hoffe nach dieser Generation von Vollidioten. Kann doch nicht Wahrsein das wir zuerst Kriegsführende Cowboys als Anführer haben, und jetzt Politiker die versuchen sich fast Pazifistischer als der Dalai Lama auszugeben. Es muss doch eine goldene Linie in der Mitte geben wo sich die beiden Radikalen treffen und ausnahmsweise mal halbwegs Normale Politik üben die nicht daraus besteht Nachbarländer zu überfallen oder Spiele mit farbkugeln zu verbieten....

Well, I think it is blind actionism again.

Its just easier to ban some harmless and unrelated hobby, which has no lobby, than to ask why young people are so desperate that they go on a jolly killing spree.

Anyway, I strongly doubt that there will be really a ban on this. I am not even sure if such a ban is constitutional.

Da stimm ich dir nicht zu. Ich glaube nicht das es an der Kriegsgeneration liegt. Sonst wär der Verbot schon in den 80er in Kraft gesetzt worden.

Ich glaub die jetzigen Übeltäter sind die Nachkriegs Generation, also die '68er Kinder. Die Kinder von der Kriegsgeneration die strikt alles ablehnen was mit ihren Vätern zu tun hatte, in diesen Fall simulierter Krieg in Form von Paintball. Weil es anscheinend Gewaltverherrlichend sein soll. Was anscheinend auch nur Sie, also diese Politikergeneration, als anstossend und Tabu empfinden.

Ich warte einfach auf den Tag wo Deutschland mal normale Politiker kriegt. Ich hoffe nach dieser Generation von Vollidioten. Kann doch nicht Wahrsein das wir zuerst Kriegsführende Cowboys als Anführer haben, und jetzt Politiker die versuchen sich fast Pazifistischer als der Dalai Lama auszugeben. Es muss doch eine goldene Linie in der Mitte geben wo sich die beiden Radikalen treffen und ausnahmsweise mal halbwegs Normale Politik üben die nicht daraus besteht Nachbarländer zu überfallen oder Spiele mit farbkugeln zu verbieten....
Naja, egal welche Generation, irgendwann stirbt die aus.

Ich hab mir jetzt bei Kandidatenwatch.de Wiefelspütz' (SPD) Argumentation angeschaut (sein Pendant, der Herr Bosbach, von der CDU äußert sich leider nicht), und anscheinend basiert alles darauf, das auf menschliche Abbilder zu schießen illegal ist (Ausnahme: Militär und Polizei), und dass deswegen das Schießen auf echte Menschen die Menschenwürde auch verletzt. Stimme immer noch nicht zu.

Anyway, I strongly doubt that there will be really a ban on this. I am not even sure if such a ban is constitutional.
Could well be if they invoke the laws that make shooting at human targets illegal in their argumentation... =(

Naja, egal welche Generation, irgendwann stirbt die aus.

Ich hab mir jetzt bei Kandidatenwatch.de Wiefelspütz' (SPD) Argumentation angeschaut (sein Pendant, der Herr Bosbach, von der CDU äußert sich leider nicht), und anscheinend basiert alles darauf, das auf menschliche Abbilder zu schießen illegal ist (Ausnahme: Militär und Polizei), und dass deswegen das Schießen auf echte Menschen die Menschenwürde auch verletzt. Stimme immer noch nicht zu.


Eben. Irgendwann kriegen wir noch eine Politikergeneration die mit dem jetzigen beschäftigt ist, und sich nicht Blind von einer 13 jähriger dunkler Phase unsere Geschichte leiten lässt. Trotzdem ätzt es schon wenn man anfängt Videospiele und Freizeitspiele als Illegal abzustämpeln.

Ach. Wir deutsche sind einfallsreich. Wenn es nötig wird, werden wir halt zu Spott der Welt und spielen Paintball in Hühnerkostüme.

Meh. Keiner der deutschen Parteien gefällt mir. Aber wenn ich eine wählen müsste, die meiner Meinung nach am wenigsten Schaden anrichten würde. Dan glaub ich würde ich FDP wählen.

Eben. Irgendwann kriegen wir noch eine Politikergeneration die mit dem jetzigen beschäftigt ist, und sich nicht Blind von einer 13 jähriger dunkler Phase unsere Geschichte leiten lässt. Trotzdem ätzt es schon wenn man anfängt Videospiele und Freizeitspiele als Illegal abzustämpeln.

Ach. Wir deutsche sind einfallsreich. Wenn es nötig wird, werden wir halt zu Spott der Welt und spielen Paintball in Hühnerkostüme. =P
Meh. Keiner der deutschen Parteien gefällt mir. Aber wenn ich eine wählen müsste, die meiner Meinung nach am wenigsten Schaden anrichten würde. Dan glaub ich würde ich FDP wählen.Bin eher gegen die FDP. Deren Auffassung von Bürgerrechten gefällt mir zwar, aber deren Einstellung gegenüber der Marktwirtschaft ist mir dann doch etwas zu billigend. Obwohl, da fällt mir der Volksentscheid über den Flughafen Tempelhof vor nem Jahr ein. Der CDU Politiker, der dahinter steckte, hat nach dem deutlichen Ergebnis (nämlich dass sich die überwiegende Mehrheit der Berliner nicht genügend für den Erhalt des Flughafens interresiert) immer noch von einer Mehrheit für seine Position gefaselt. Einer der Beteiligten von der FDP, von Lüdecke, dagen war der einzige, der auch tatsächlich öffentlich eingestanden hat, dass sie verloren hatten.

War Generation mainly. Hate any idea of playing war (though for some reason actually going to war is ok). What I find hilarious though is that the pacifist Bündis 90/Die Grünen reject the ban.There's a reason the Greens & the liberals are the only parties I even consider voting - they're the only ones who are still aware of the concept 'Civil Rights', and not entirely caught in the all-too-old 'Illegalise EVERYTHING!' attitude.

A pity they're both suffering from nutjobs in high positions (Westerwelle and Trittin, respectively). Without them, and their pathological hatred of the other party...

No, really. A green/ yellow coalition, for all its unlikelyness, would be perfect. The green cut down the liberal's 'Deregulation solves EVERYTHING!' attitude, the liberals cut down on the green's 'Trees. Trees EVERYWHERE!' attitude, and everyone's happy.

And any government not featuring SPD & CDU is a good government.

A pity it wont happen, ever. But I can dream.

PS: Also, speak english, ffs.

Could well be if they invoke the laws that make shooting at human targets illegal in their argumentation... =(

As far as I know they derive their estimation from the assumption that painball is "Sittenwidrig". Unfortunately "Sittenwidrigkeit" has a very vague definition and I think that, if paintball would really be banned, it would make sense to invoke the Bundesverfassungsgericht.

As far as I know they derive their estimation from the assumption that painball is "Sittenwidrig". Unfortunately "Sittenwidrigkeit" has a very vague definition and I think that, if paintball would really be banned, it would make sense to invoke the Bundesverfassungsgericht.I don't know about Bosbach, but Wiefelspütz (former judge, too) derives it from the Sittenwidrigkeit of shooting at human targets. That might well invoke § 1 GG.

And now Wiefelspütz has gone on record saying that paintball won't be banned... for now. Apparently he's convinced there wouldn't be a majority in parliament for passing the law.