NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not familiar with Zerg, but I do think that Ferengi are (at the least) based on stereotypes about Jews, if not actually on Jews, themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_of_StarCraft)

Scroll down until you find the Zerg.

I am not a tremendous fan of the Borg, but this sounds a tad silly...

Why would it be 'silly'?

When you read a work of fiction, and the author describes a dystopian environment, you can often extrapolate accurate interpretations of the author's personal theology/philosophy/ideology.

When you look at the things that leap to the minds of the creators of the Borg... it's not hard to imagine they've externalized their own weaknesses.

When you read a work of fiction, and the author describes a dystopian environment, you can often extrapolate accurate interpretations of the author's personal theology/philosophy/ideology.


In this case, it's a very strange extrapolation, there's nothing convincing about it to me. It also seems to be based on a probably inaccurate stereotype about scriptwriters.

Why would it be 'silly'?

Because if one reads that much into a series that continually breaks sexist stereotypes, it seems one could read that into anything.

When you read a work of fiction, and the author describes a dystopian environment, you can often extrapolate accurate interpretations of the author's personal theology/philosophy/ideology.

When you look at the things that leap to the minds of the creators of the Borg... it's not hard to imagine they've externalized their own weaknesses.

The concept of the Borg seems more inspired by insects than women, to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_of_StarCraft)

Scroll down until you find the Zerg.

Wow. It's not often you hear of someone ripping off a Games Workshop idea. I thought it was always the other way around.

Why would it be 'silly'?

When you read a work of fiction, and the author describes a dystopian environment, you can often extrapolate accurate interpretations of the author's personal theology/philosophy/ideology.

When you look at the things that leap to the minds of the creators of the Borg... it's not hard to imagine they've externalized their own weaknesses.

Perhaps you are externalizing your own weaknesses in your personal interpretation of the Borg?

The concept of the Borg seems more inspired by insects than women, to me.

Which insects assimilate people? Or other insects, even. If the Borg enslaved other races, maybe.

Perhaps you are externalizing your own weaknesses in your personal interpretation of the Borg?

What would my weakness be? A cynical nature?

What would my weakness be? A cynical nature?

Your weakness is that you're overly post-modern. :d

What weakness does it imply on my part, that I was always pulled out of the fantasy by the fact that the Borg could adjust to Federation hand-to-hand weapons? That grated every time. The good guys would go in with weapons able to take out the Borg, then the Borg would turn around and not be able to be hurt by them any more. It wasn't FAIR! It was CHEATING! The Federation shouldn't play with them until they learned to play PROPERLY!

The Borg godmode.:mad:

On another topic: barfights. That was not cinema's greatest barfight. It was not even Star Trek's greatest barfight. It was not as good as the crossover barfight when the DS9 characters got timewarped into a Kirk-crew brawl. Nobody smashed the bar mirror and nobody (that I noticed) broke a chair or a table over another's head. Also, no vaudeville piano. I am sorely disappointed in Star Fleet's cadets. They should not be allowed to graduate until they get it right.

The concept of the Borg seems more inspired by insects than women, to me.

The Borg were originally supposed to be an insectoid race, but the idea was dropped due to budget issues.

On another topic: barfights. That was not cinema's greatest barfight. It was not even Star Trek's greatest barfight. It was not as good as the crossover barfight when the DS9 characters got timewarped into a Kirk-crew brawl. Nobody smashed the bar mirror and nobody (that I noticed) broke a chair or a table over another's head.

As an Aussie, you would be the authority on what makes a good bar fight, wouldnt ya?;)

Which insects assimilate people? Or other insects, even. If the Borg enslaved other races, maybe.

Which women assimilate men? If the Borg enslaved other races, maybe. :p

What bothers me most is that in the movie it is common knowledge that Romulans and Vulcans are related. But that didn't happen int he series until later.

What weakness does it imply on my part, that I was always pulled out of the fantasy by the fact that the Borg could adjust to Federation hand-to-hand weapons? That grated every time. The good guys would go in with weapons able to take out the Borg, then the Borg would turn around and not be able to be hurt by them any more. It wasn't FAIR! It was CHEATING! The Federation shouldn't play with them until they learned to play PROPERLY!

The Borg godmode.:mad:

On another topic: barfights. That was not cinema's greatest barfight. It was not even Star Trek's greatest barfight. It was not as good as the crossover barfight when the DS9 characters got timewarped into a Kirk-crew brawl. Nobody smashed the bar mirror and nobody (that I noticed) broke a chair or a table over another's head. Also, no vaudeville piano. I am sorely disappointed in Star Fleet's cadets. They should not be allowed to graduate until they get it right.

This is why you have my admiration.

You could call me a Trekkie if you would like, but I have not seen more than 20% of any given series, except for Voyager.

This will see if you're a trekkie: Kirk or Picard? Or one of those other strange people?

I....but....what? You didnt like the Borg?

Bu-...I mean...

Im sorry, I just need time to think.

It's not that I dislike the Borg per se, it's just that Trek writers have trotted them out too many times now. They've become kind of like the skin tight outfits on female characters. They might be fun to watch but deep down you know they're only there to try and save ratings.

It's not that I dislike the Borg per se, it's just that Trek writers have trotted them out too many times now. They've become kind of like the skin tight outfits on female characters. They might be fun to watch but deep down you know they're only there to try and save ratings.

Too much of a good thing tends to spoil it. I know what you mean - the Borg were scary and exciting in small doses, but once you bring them out every week, you need to let the good guys defeat them every week. And at that point you start wondering why you thoughts they were badass in the first place.

Well just saw the movie and as a newbie to Star Trek, I enjoyed it.

Too much of a good thing tends to spoil it. I know what you mean - the Borg were scary and exciting in small doses, but once you bring them out every week, you need to let the good guys defeat them every week. And at that point you start wondering why you thoughts they were badass in the first place.

They need(ed) to be like the Orion system in Masters of Orion II. You did NOT want to run into that big MF with a significant portion of your fleet if you were still underpowered. Starfleet should have been written as being scared shitless of the Borg, and avoiding them at all costs. Instead, they wrote the whole Wolf 359 scenario with all of Borg heading straight for Earth. Kinda hard not to have the Borg defeated (or defeatable) in that case unless you're willing to have Earth get shredded and continue Trekking from colonies.

They need(ed) to be like the Orion system in Masters of Orion II. You did NOT want to run into that big MF with a significant portion of your fleet if you were still underpowered. Starfleet should have been written as being scared shitless of the Borg, and avoiding them at all costs. Instead, they wrote the whole Wolf 359 scenario with all of Borg heading straight for Earth. Kinda hard not to have the Borg defeated (or defeatable) in that case unless you're willing to have Earth get shredded and continue Trekking from colonies.

I wonde how many trekkies would have swallowed that. I'd have gone for it... and it would have been a pretty decisive move for the Borg story arc. Of course, it would have made later Borg-cube-a-week storylines even more pathetic, if they'd still gone that route...

I wonde how many trekkies would have swallowed that. I'd have gone for it... and it would have been a pretty decisive move for the Borg story arc. Of course, it would have made later Borg-cube-a-week storylines even more pathetic, if they'd still gone that route...

I wouldn't have minded an 'Earth is destroyed' secenario. and you have the remnants of the 'Federation' working along side the remnants of the Klingon and Romulan Empires as they strive to push back the Borg and rebuild a new and possibly united Government.

and since this would've been done before DS9 and Voyager... the possiblities of how those two series would've then turned out would've been more interesting.

I wouldn't have minded an 'Earth is destroyed' secenario. and you have the remnants of the 'Federation' working along side the remnants of the Klingon and Romulan Empires as they strive to push back the Borg and rebuild a new and possibly united Government.

and since this would've been done before DS9 and Voyager... the possiblities of how those two series would've then turned out would've been more interesting.

Also A toning down of the federation would have been nice.
right now it is like of cardasians and romulans are barely breaking a sweat for the federation. the only thing that even made them call in their aid from the Klingons was the Dominion.
I would love to see a series about the decline of the federation then perhaps a rebound of it.

Also A toning down of the federation would have been nice.
right now it is like of cardasians and romulans are barely breaking a sweat for the federation. the only thing that even made them call in their aid from the Klingons was the Dominion.
I would love to see a series about the decline of the federation then perhaps a rebound of it.

oh hell yes. The Federation was just too strong.

Which is why instead of DS9, Voyager, or Enterprise, A modification of Andromeda would've been a great Trek series. one Starship is trapped in a sigularity and escapes almost a century later... when all three empires have collapsed and you can then explore a changed galaxy.

oh hell yes. The Federation was just too strong.

Which is why instead of DS9, Voyager, or Enterprise, A modification of Andromeda would've been a great Trek series. one Starship is trapped in a sigularity and escapes almost a century later... when all three empires have collapsed and you can then explore a changed galaxy.

I was just thinking a decline to the point where when the federation negotiates it actually has to give soemthing up rather then just the same ole we are democracy we are right stamp they normally slap everywhere.

oh hell yes. The Federation was just too strong.

Which is why instead of DS9, Voyager, or Enterprise, A modification of Andromeda would've been a great Trek series. one Starship is trapped in a sigularity and escapes almost a century later... when all three empires have collapsed and you can then explore a changed galaxy.

I kept hoping that was what was going to happen in Voyager. The idea of Voyager was intriguing. Being out there, alone, with no federation to back you up and people just don't like you. Sadly, they fell back on a lot of fluff instead of fleshing out the situation.....I didn't like the ending.

The fun of the new movie is a new timeline......anything can happen......

Also A toning down of the federation would have been nice.
right now it is like of cardasians and romulans are barely breaking a sweat for the federation. the only thing that even made them call in their aid from the Klingons was the Dominion.
I would love to see a series about the decline of the federation then perhaps a rebound of it.

That was actually what I always wanted to happen... and why I liked DS9. I didn't think DS9 went far enough, but it did have an enemy bigger than the Federation. In fact, it had an enemy that might well be bigger than Federation, Klingon and Romulan empires put together. I liked the fact that DS9 was remote enough to avoid the 'cavalry to the rescue' deus ex in every episode, and was in contested territory - meaning there did have to be diplomacy and compromise.

I'd have liked to have seen a federation in decline, or a fallen federation. I'd have liked to see a story arc that followed a 'darkest chapter' concept - and, to be honest - I thought that was what we were going to get AFTER DS9. But instead, we got the bubblegum series, and retrospection.

I kept hoping that was what was going to happen in Voyager. The idea of Voyager was intriguing. Being out there, alone, with no federation to back you up and people just don't like you. Sadly, they fell back on a lot of fluff instead of fleshing out the situation.....I didn't like the ending.

The fun of the new movie is a new timeline......anything can happen......
and it needed a new timeline. its too restricting to have to follow the old timeline. now we can be surprised with what comes next.

That was actually what I always wanted to happen... and why I liked DS9. I didn't think DS9 went far enough, but it did have an enemy bigger than the Federation. In fact, it had an enemy that might well be bigger than Federation, Klingon and Romulan empires put together. I liked the fact that DS9 was remote enough to avoid the 'cavalry to the rescue' deus ex in every episode, and was in contested territory - meaning there did have to be diplomacy and compromise.

I'd have liked to have seen a federation in decline, or a fallen federation. I'd have liked to see a story arc that followed a 'darkest chapter' concept - and, to be honest - I thought that was what we were going to get AFTER DS9. But instead, we got the bubblegum series, and retrospection.

Here is how I would do it.
TOS the rise to prominence of the federation.
TNG federation at its pinnacle and the beginning of decline.
DS9 the decline.
Series after DS9 federation at its weakest struggle to remain together with maybe a hint of recover at the end of the series.

I liked that the Federation was noticably stronger than all of its rivals. I liked that the Federation was never really threatened by any of their adversaries. I liked how DS9 started exploring the possibility that maybe the Federation wasn't as noble and altruistic as the audience had always seen them.

I kept hoping that was what was going to happen in Voyager. The idea of Voyager was intriguing. Being out there, alone, with no federation to back you up and people just don't like you. Sadly, they fell back on a lot of fluff instead of fleshing out the situation.....I didn't like the ending.

true. lots of missed opportunities.

I liked that the Federation was noticably stronger than all of its rivals. I liked that the Federation was never really threatened by any of their adversaries. I liked how DS9 started exploring the possibility that maybe the Federation wasn't as noble and altruistic as the audience had always seen them.

Power corrupts. I liked that angle.

Buh?

Trekkies are not fans. They are fanatics.This reminds me of the time i posted that classic SNL clip and how i was misinterpreted for it by a certain mod, to the extent of them removing my post.
Sad, seeing as how i'm a fan and all. Fan/Trekkie. Not sure.
I think i don't qualify so much since, if i had $500,000, i probably wouldn't use it to buy the NCC-1701-D.

ok, I've finally seen it.

I stand corrected. It was good. A great reboot. love some of the changes and while it does force me to try harder to ignore the plotholes... I think this was a great movie.

I finally saw it Saturday. It was well done and I enjoyed every second of it. My quibbles were not with the alternate universe theme, but with some of the incidents that indicated a misunderstanding of military culture.

- Spock's relationship with Uhura - against the rules! He is an active-duty officer and a teacher at Star Fleet Academy. She is a cadet. As a Vulcan, even a Vulcan exploring his emotions, he would be a stickler for the rules - just not gonna happen. And if it did, there would be no PDAs - ever!

- Sorry, in any military, no matter what he did, Kirk would not have been promoted from cadet to Captain of the flagship in that short a time. He would have been commended for his actions (and probably written up for insubordination at the same time) and possibly have been jumped over Ensign and possibly over J.G. to Lieutenant. He would probably have been fast-tracked for command, but to be advanced to one step below flag rank and put in charge of Star Fleet's baby - unrealistic!

- The implication the Kirk has a criminal record (Pike's reference to a "genius level repeat offender) it may only be misdemeanors, but it would seriously, negatively impact Kirk's opportunities in Star Fleet. As an enlisted person, it would have some impact, but as long as he stayed away from posts requiring security clearances, he could advance. It would have serious implications for his chances at a commission, however.

But I still loved it.

I finally saw it Saturday. It was well done and I enjoyed every second of it. My quibbles were not with the alternate universe theme, but with some of the incidents that indicated a misunderstanding of military culture.

- Spock's relationship with Uhura - against the rules! He is an active-duty officer and a teacher at Star Fleet Academy. She is a cadet. As a Vulcan, even a Vulcan exploring his emotions, he would be a stickler for the rules - just not gonna happen. And if it did, there would be no PDAs - ever!

- Sorry, in any military, no matter what he did, Kirk would not have been promoted from cadet to Captain of the flagship in that short a time. He would have been commended for his actions (and probably written up for insubordination at the same time) and possibly have been jumped over Ensign and possibly over J.G. to Lieutenant. He would probably have been fast-tracked for command, but to be advanced to one step below flag rank and put in charge of Star Fleet's baby - unrealistic!

- The implication the Kirk has a criminal record (Pike's reference to a "genius level repeat offender) it may only be misdemeanors, but it would seriously, negatively impact Kirk's opportunities in Star Fleet. As an enlisted person, it would have some impact, but as long as he stayed away from posts requiring security clearances, he could advance. It would have serious implications for his chances at a commission, however.

But I still loved it.

There's precedent, if you look at Kirk's sudden jump in rank as being a brevet promotion.

I finally saw it Saturday. It was well done and I enjoyed every second of it. My quibbles were not with the alternate universe theme, but with some of the incidents that indicated a misunderstanding of military culture.

- Spock's relationship with Uhura - against the rules! He is an active-duty officer and a teacher at Star Fleet Academy. She is a cadet. As a Vulcan, even a Vulcan exploring his emotions, he would be a stickler for the rules - just not gonna happen. And if it did, there would be no PDAs - ever!

- Sorry, in any military, no matter what he did, Kirk would not have been promoted from cadet to Captain of the flagship in that short a time. He would have been commended for his actions (and probably written up for insubordination at the same time) and possibly have been jumped over Ensign and possibly over J.G. to Lieutenant. He would probably have been fast-tracked for command, but to be advanced to one step below flag rank and put in charge of Star Fleet's baby - unrealistic!

- The implication the Kirk has a criminal record (Pike's reference to a "genius level repeat offender) it may only be misdemeanors, but it would seriously, negatively impact Kirk's opportunities in Star Fleet. As an enlisted person, it would have some impact, but as long as he stayed away from posts requiring security clearances, he could advance. It would have serious implications for his chances at a commission, however.

But I still loved it.
good points.

but there had to be SOME reason why kirk was the youngest captain in starfleet--of course i think he was supposed to be more like 30 than....23?

good points.

but there had to be SOME reason why kirk was the youngest captain in starfleet--of course i think he was supposed to be more like 30 than....23?

He was 25 by the time he was given command.

He was 25 by the time he was given command.
and they had to have a damned good reason why he would. its not going to make much sense no matter what reason they chose.

I liked that the Federation was noticably stronger than all of its rivals. I liked that the Federation was never really threatened by any of their adversaries. I liked how DS9 started exploring the possibility that maybe the Federation wasn't as noble and altruistic as the audience had always seen them.

its the vision of "utopia," altruism and feeling of hope that makes me love Star Trek so much. well, that and a bunch of other stuff.
DS9 is great, and i like it a lot, but it can never be my favourite because it moves away from that core ethos too much. not really making any point here, just spouting my opinion at almost 1am when i'm tired...

and they had to have a damned good reason why he would. its not going to make much sense no matter what reason they chose.

I really should add another point - from the time he was prepubescent, Kirk had "loose cannon" writ all over him in huge, neon letters. In the real military he might reach the rank of captain by 30 or 32 - by 25, never. His jacket would be full of conflicting commendations and write-ups for insubordination and ignoring chain-of-command. He might be jumped to lieutenant by the time he's 25, but there'd be a close watch on his every move and if he took one step wrong that didn't pan out exactly right, he'd be sent to BFE with the rank of "forever lieutenant" faster than warp speed.

Of course, that would be in a "real world" military. The wonderful thing about this movie is that suspension of disbelief is easy and natural and we all get to sit happily in the theaters watching our own fantasies play out beautifully in front of us.

good points.

but there had to be SOME reason why kirk was the youngest captain in starfleet--of course i think he was supposed to be more like 30 than....23?
In the main timeline, Kirk was 31 when he was promoted to captain and given command of the Enterprise.

Of course the main timeline always has some weird problems given Kirk's age and just how he came through the ranks.

I really should add another point - from the time he was prepubescent, Kirk had "loose cannon" writ all over him in huge, neon letters. In the real military he might reach the rank of captain by 30 or 32 - by 25, never. His jacket would be full of conflicting commendations and write-ups for insubordination and ignoring chain-of-command. He might be jumped to lieutenant by the time he's 25, but there'd be a close watch on his every move and if he took one step wrong that didn't pan out exactly right, he'd be sent to BFE with the rank of "forever lieutenant" faster than warp speed.

Of course, that would be in a "real world" military. The wonderful thing about this movie is that suspension of disbelief is easy and natural and we all get to sit happily in the theaters watching our own fantasies play out beautifully in front of us.
*Snorts* In a real world military Admiral Kirk would probably have ended up in jail for stealing the Enterprise, blowing it up, and inciting others to muteny, not just given a symbolic slap on the wrist in demotion to captain and then put in charge, again, of the Federation's flagship; even if he HAD saved the world.

I really should add another point - from the time he was prepubescent, Kirk had "loose cannon" writ all over him in huge, neon letters. In the real military he might reach the rank of captain by 30 or 32 - by 25, never. His jacket would be full of conflicting commendations and write-ups for insubordination and ignoring chain-of-command. He might be jumped to lieutenant by the time he's 25, but there'd be a close watch on his every move and if he took one step wrong that didn't pan out exactly right, he'd be sent to BFE with the rank of "forever lieutenant" faster than warp speed.

Of course, that would be in a "real world" military. The wonderful thing about this movie is that suspension of disbelief is easy and natural and we all get to sit happily in the theaters watching our own fantasies play out beautifully in front of us.
captain IN THE NAVY? in charge of a major ship? 30-32 seems very young for that.

captain IN THE NAVY? in charge of a major ship? 30-32 seems very young for that.

Granted, it's a huge "might have." And it's contingent on a lot of senior line officers having been killed or incapacitated.

In the Navy, though, if you're in charge of a two-man motor skiff, you're the captain, even if you're rank is ensign.

captain IN THE NAVY? in charge of a major ship? 30-32 seems very young for that.
Depends, in a time of war, they made 'em rather young.

Granted, it's a huge "might have." And it's contingent on a lot of senior line officers having been killed or incapacitated.

In the Navy, though, if you're in charge of a two-man motor skiff, you're the captain, even if you're rank is ensign.
aye but i had the impression that kirk was a real captain not just a lieutenant in charge of a boat (the flagship)