NationStates Jolt Archive

Linky:http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/04/ammo.shortage/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

AURORA, Colorado (CNN) -- Gun shops across the country are reporting a run on ammunition, a phenomenon apparently driven by fear that the Obama administration will increase taxes on bullets or enact new gun-control measures.

"In the last two months it's gotten very, very difficult to find ammunition," says Richard Taylor, manager of The Firing Line, a gun shop and shooting range in the Denver, Colorado, suburbs.

"There are a lot of rumors floating around that the present government would like to increase taxes on ammunition. I think [there is] just a lot of panicked buying going on."

While campaigning for the White House, Obama supported re-enacting the now-expired ban on assault weapons. But there is no indication that the administration will take up that measure -- or any other gun-control initiative --anytime soon.

Nonetheless, some gun owners aren't taking any chances.

Two weeks ago, The Firing Line was forced to impose a four-box-per-customer limit on ammo. Before that, the shop was selling 10,000 rounds of 9 mm handgun ammunition a day.

Some calibers of ammunition have been unavailable for months.

"Currently no .380 ammunition -- I haven't seen any for about four months ... .38 special, it's been at least a couple of months," Taylor says. "It's just that there's been a huge demand and it's far outweighed supply right now."

Taylor says plenty of people are still coming to the range to shoot, but are gun owners hoarding ammo?

"People are buying cases or whatever they can get their hands on and putting it away, absolutely," he says. "The only way that this shortage can have to do with it is that people are buying and hoarding."

Karl Roos, a physician, stopped by the range to do some shooting with his Smith and Wesson .357-caliber Magnum, using some rounds from his personal stock of ammo.

"I have yet to see .38 special or .357 Magnum ammunition on the shelf. The stuff I'm shooting I've had for several years. I just haven't seen it for the last several months," says Roos, who adds he is always on the lookout for fresh sources of ammo. "As I'm doing the rounds of the local stores that carry ammunition, if I see something on the shelf I'll buy it."

"I'm not too worried about things being banned or anything like that," he says. But he notes that many of his fellow gun enthusiasts are scared: "There's definitely a lot of fear."

Jim Minardi, a gun dealer in Lakewood, Colorado, says only a few people are actually hoarding. But they are buying up so much ammo that there isn't much left on the shelves.

"The minority of our customers are stockpiling ammunition," Minardi says. "The majority are standard shooters buying what they can."

Wal-Mart is one of the largest ammo dealers in the United States. In an e-mail exchange, a Wal-Mart spokesman confirmed that ammo sales have been brisk.

"Some Wal-Mart stores have experienced an increase in demand for guns and ammo and for those locations, we are working closely with suppliers to replenish shelves," says William C. Wertz, the discount chain's divisional director for public affairs and government relations. "In some situations where demand is high, so that we can better serve all customers, we will place a limit on the amount of a product that can be purchased."

"It's no different with ammo than other products (toilet paper, batteries, etc.) that may be in short supply for one reason or another."

Each year U.S. ammo manufacturers make about 8 billion rounds, according to the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the trade association for the firearms and ammunition industry. Current production data won't be in until late May, but the foundation expects the numbers to be way up.

"In order to keep up with demand for ammunition, manufacturers are working at full capacity, 24-7," says Ted Novin, an NSSF spokesman. "Currently demand for ammunition is outpacing supply."

Novin says he believes the reason is clear.

"The increase in demand for firearms and ammunition is largely attributable to gun owner concerns regarding the current political climate," says Novin, referring to the Obama administration and the Democrat-controlled Congress.

"Many of the lawmakers in power have a long history of supporting legislation that violates the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding Americans," Novin adds. "Gun owners recognize this and are reacting accordingly."

Ammunition manufacturers have been scrambling to keep up with demand.

A message from Steve Hornady, president of Hornady Ammunition, on the company's Web site reads:

"Here at Hornady Manufacturing we are breaking our own production records in an attempt to keep up with customer demand. We have added extra shifts, machinery and we are also in the process of expanding our manufacturing plant."

Winchester Ammunition posted a similar statement:

"Winchester Ammunition, like other ammunition manufacturers, has seen the demand for our products increase significantly since last fall. To meet that increased demand, our operations are running 24 hours a day, 7 days a week."

Andrew Arulanandam, communications director of the National Rifle Association, says the "unprecedented ammo shortages are widespread, and they affect small and large retailers."

"We have heard from members across the country in cities and in small towns from California to Maine," Arulanandam says. "There is a fear that Congress or the new administration will push for a firearm or an ammunition ban, or for a significant increase in excise taxes on firearms and ammunition. We hear this from hunters, target shooters and even from first-time gun owners who fear that there will be an effort to incrementally curtail and eventually dismantle this freedom."

Back at The Firing Line's gun range, pilot Ron Cardwell is working on his target shooting with his 9 mm semiautomatic pistol. He loves to shoot and hopes the ammo crisis ends soon.

"I have three or four boxes of 9 mm left at home and a couple of boxes of .45," he says. "I'm just buying as much as I can whenever I can

Ok, so that might be a bit of a stretch, but its becoming really hard to buy bullets lately, because you cant find em anywhere. Apperantly a lot of the gun nuts in the country have been listening to the Blob and Beck and are convinced, CONVINCED I TELL YOU that Obama is going to enact a higher tax on bullets or some other such nonsense with no basis in reality, so theyre going buying up all the bullets they can. And of course, we have the demagouges in the NRA doing the "AAAAH EVIL DEMOCRATS HATE UR RIGHTZ!!!!" dance, which is just adding fuel to the buying frenzy.

On the plus side, hey, its consumer spending. Glad to see theyre doing their part to increase consumer spending, and by extension, help the economy. Now if only they were buying something useful in bulk....

Of course, maybe theyre just arming their militias for a coming attempt at sucession. FORT SUMTER!!!!

Who are you to decide what's useful?

The basic formula for commerce is that some people make things that other people want. The wanters pay the makers; the makers spend the money.

Anything that fits that equation is a whole lot better for the economy than $13 a month from June to December.

Who are you to decide what's useful?

The basic formula for commerce is that some people make things that other people want. The wanters pay the makers; the makers spend the money.

Anything that fits that equation is a whole lot better for the economy than $13 a month from June to December.

False dichotomy. It could easily be the case that you are only buying the product you want because you have that extra $13 dollars...

Jolly good on Obama for stimulating the economy by just being liberal.

They obviously know something the rest of us don't...

Zombie Apocalypse maybe?!

or an ammunition ban

How is that supposed to work?

Does it work on the argument that bullets aren't arms and thus not protected by the second ammendment?

A cunning ploy that transforms all those nasty guns into shiny hunks of metal I'm sure...

How is that supposed to work?

Does it work on the argument that bullets aren't arms and thus not protected by the second ammendment?

A cunning ploy that transforms all those nasty guns into shiny hunks of metal I'm sure...

Except for those of us who make our own Ammo.

They obviously know something the rest of us don't...

Zombie Apocalypse maybe?!
im sure it will come out soon that the swine flu is really the zombie flu. thats why so few deaths have been reported...

Except for those of us who make our own Ammo.
I shoot bullseye pistol matches and I load my own 45 cal ammo. I can still get SWC bullets, but finding brass is going to be tough. Give it up, if you want JHP bullets. If you know where to find some, let me know.

223 is just as bad. Walmart had a box -- one box of 20. They wanted $12 something for it.

For the first time in history, gun lovers are doing something good :)

My current supply of .223 is 200 rounds, all bought from Wal-Mart. I need to stock up, as I hope to be going to the range more often this year.

I shoot bullseye pistol matches and I load my own 45 cal ammo. I can still get SWC bullets, but finding brass is going to be tough. Give it up, if you want JHP bullets. If you know where to find some, let me know.

223 is just as bad. Walmart had a box -- one box of 20. They wanted $12 something for it.

You don't reuse your brass.

For the first time in history, gun lovers are doing something good :)

Not really, fear has created a speculation bubble in bullets.
Your gun user is only going to use so many rounds a month.
If they over react and buy 2 years worth of Ammo that means once people stop buying ammo they wont buy it for a year or two.

Also this takes credit/money that could have gone elsewhere into the economy.

Not really, fear has created a speculation bubble in bullets.
Your gun user is only going to use so many rounds a month.
If they over react and buy 2 years worth of Ammo that means once people stop buying ammo they wont buy it for a year or two.

Also this takes credit/money that could have gone elsewhere into the economy.

So...in the end it could explode like any given bubble? :)

In 2 months you get your ammunition for almost free :)

Could your OP be any more condescending and contain any more pejorative terms? Gun lover said in same tone as child molester? Paranoia? Now theres a positive term for a description of people that simply want to have bullets for their guns.

I stockpile pies. :)

I stockpile pies. :)

Be careful! If you and others like you buy up too many of our nation's pies, you could end up creating a bubble in the pie industry!

...

Mmmm.....pie bubble. :)

For the first time in history, gun lovers are doing something good :)

What an ignorant comment.

Just because there's a minority of gun owners stockpiling ammunition, suddenly all of us are basically paranoid idiots?

Amazing.

Could your OP be any more condescending and contain any more pejorative terms? Gun lover said in same tone as child molester? Paranoia? Now theres a positive term for a description of people that simply want to have bullets for their guns.

Where the hell in my OP did I mention child molesters? Im sure my OP is real offensive if you see things that arent there.

What an ignorant comment.

Just because there's a minority of gun owners stockpiling ammunition, suddenly all of us are basically paranoid idiots?

Amazing.

As much as HK is a troll, thats not what he/she said at all.

Where the hell in my OP did I mention child molesters? Im sure my OP is real offensive if you see things that arent there.

Well then could you explain to me the intentions you had using the terms gun lover and paranoia? (Fully 50% of the words in your entire OP title) Did you mean those terms in a positive light that i somehow misinterpreted?

Well then you explain to me the intentions you had using the terms gun lover and paranoia? (Fully 50% of the words in your entire OP title) Did you mean those terms in a positive light that i somehow misinterpreted?

What in Gods name does either of those have to do with child molesting? Seriously...

Anyway...

1. Gun lovers is hardly a dirogitory term. I would have said 'enthusiests' but I cant spell that word nearly as well. Would you have prefered 'gun nuts'?

2. It is paranoia. Read the damn article. Theyre convinced, for no reason, that the ebil democrats are going to TAKE AWAY THEIR GUNS or BAN AMMO when they have no rational reason for believing such.

And before you play the inevitabl 'YOUR GENERALIZING' card, note my use of the word 'a lot' rather then 'all' when refering to their paranoia.

As much as HK is a troll, thats not what he/she said at all.

No? Well then what did HK mean?

I can't wait to hear this.

2. It is paranoia. Read the damn article. Theyre convinced, for no reason, that the ebil democrats are going to TAKE AWAY THEIR GUNS or BAN AMMO when they have no rational reason for believing such.

So Obama saying that he wants to reinstate the assault weapons ban isn't a reason for buying the guns and ammunition that the ban would outlaw?

So...in the end it could explode like any given bubble? :)

In 2 months you get your ammunition for almost free :)

then every college student like me will have all the ammo we need.

though then ina year there would be almost no ammo makers.

No? Well then what did HK mean?

I can't wait to hear this.
HK flat out said gun nuts dont do anything useful. Not that youre all paraniod nuts.

Not that that is much better. But if youre going to be insulted over something, at least make sure its the right thing.

So Obama saying that he wants to reinstate the assault weapons ban isn't a reason for buying the guns and ammunition that the ban would outlaw?

Yeah, that would work if thats actually what they thought/are doing. But if you read the article (I know I know, never been NSG's strong point) theyre buying ammo because they think hes going to tax/ban ammo, and theyre not just buying assualt weapon ammo.

And they have no basis for this fear other then Blob, Beck, and the NRA telling him that theyre going to ban ammo because DEY R TEH DEMOCRATZ!

I shoot bullseye pistol matches and I load my own 45 cal ammo. I can still get SWC bullets, but finding brass is going to be tough. Give it up, if you want JHP bullets. If you know where to find some, let me know.

223 is just as bad. Walmart had a box -- one box of 20. They wanted $12 something for it.

Hey look, it turns out that $13 incentive really IS sponsoring the market.

Be careful! If you and others like you buy up too many of our nation's pies, you could end up creating a bubble in the pie industry!

...

Mmmm.....pie bubble. :)

That's what pie weights are for.

Could your OP be any more condescending and contain any more pejorative terms? Gun lover said in same tone as child molester? Paranoia? Now theres a positive term for a description of people that simply want to have bullets for their guns.

Depends what they want the bullets for. If there's a huge spike in sales after Obama's election, then quite possibly these are either paranoiacs, or outright seditionisits planning to reenact the 1860's. Some of these people might just be stocking up in case bullets are banned (in which case they're idiots worrying over nothing) or become more expensive or otherwise unavailable, but some may be far more dangerous.

Depends what they want the bullets for. If there's a huge spike in sales after Obama's election, then quite possibly these are either paranoiacs, or outright seditionisits planning to reenact the 1860's. Some of these people might just be stocking up in case bullets are banned (in which case they're idiots worrying over nothing) or become more expensive or otherwise unavailable, but some may be far more dangerous.

What? Wow i have no idea what your smoking. A shortage of bullets doesnt mean that 10 seditionists are buying up the worlds supply. It means that there are tens of millions of legitimate and legal customers with legitimate concerns about their bullet supply. You cant argue that their concerns of unavailability of ammo are irrational and unfounded because due to lack of stock the unavailability is a reality. However these people are hardly the dangerous seditionists that for some bizarre reason you are trying to imply.

What? Wow i have no idea what your smoking. A shortage of bullets doesnt mean that 10 seditionists are buying up the worlds supply. It means that there are tens of millions of legitimate and legal customers with legitimate concerns about their bullet supply. You cant argue that their concerns of unavailability of ammo are irrational and unfounded because due to lack of stock the unavailability is a reality. However these people are hardly the dangerous seditionists that for some bizarre reason you are trying to imply.

Considering some of the noise coming out of the extreme right, its not a stretch to say that some of them may be seditionists.

Considering some of the noise coming out of the extreme right, its not a stretch to say that some of them may be seditionists.
So...we should lock them up for expressing seditious sympathies?

Considering some of the noise coming from the extreme left anyone who owns property or eats meat may be a target of "direct action" but I don't let it keep me up at night. See, I don't think that the extreme splinters are all that strong or dangerous and that inflating the potential threat they pose not only distorts the discussion on security matters both foreign and domestic, it also paints a much larger group only tentatively connected as being just as crazy.

Since when did exercising a legal and fundamental personal right become such a bad thing?

On the plus side, hey, its consumer spending. Glad to see theyre doing their part to increase consumer spending, and by extension, help the economy. Now if only they were buying something useful in bulk...

I'm sure the people who make bullets will be buying useful products as it means this money will start circulating through the economy more. It does help regardless of what they spend.

Provided of course that the money actually goes towards bullets made in the US, if it is simply imported then most of the money will be heading overseas.

1. Gun lovers is hardly a dirogitory term. I would have said 'enthusiests' but I cant spell that word nearly as well. Would you have prefered 'gun nuts'?

It shows. :)

I stockpile pies. :)

According to the Kellerman study in the New England Journal of Medicine, owning a supply of semi-jacketed rhubarbs and/or high velocity german chocoloate makes you fifty times more likely to pie a loved one than a criminal.

And stop pieing my wife, you meranguin' sumbitch!

I'm kidding of course. She left me.

Most seditionists I know are sedentary.

Is the paranoia really unjustified?

So...we should lock them up for expressing seditious sympathies?

Considering some of the noise coming from the extreme left anyone who owns property or eats meat may be a target of "direct action" but I don't let it keep me up at night. See, I don't think that the extreme splinters are all that strong or dangerous and that inflating the potential threat they pose not only distorts the discussion on security matters both foreign and domestic, it also paints a much larger group only tentatively connected as being just as crazy.

Since when did exercising a legal and fundamental personal right become such a bad thing?

What a waste of time it was for you to type this, considering you premise was a big old strawman.
Is the paranoia really unjustified?

Uuuh....yes.

What? Wow i have no idea what your smoking. A shortage of bullets doesnt mean that 10 seditionists are buying up the worlds supply.

Wouldn't it be nice if their were only ten secessionists instead of half the Republicans in Texas (for a start).

It means that there are tens of millions of legitimate and legal customers with legitimate concerns about their bullet supply. You cant argue that their concerns of unavailability of ammo are irrational and unfounded because due to lack of stock the unavailability is a reality.

Wait, their concerns about ammo running out are legitimate, because there's a shortage, because... they bought up all the ammo?:D

However these people are hardly the dangerous seditionists that for some bizarre reason you are trying to imply.

I didn't say that all of them are. You are putting up an absurd straw man by suggesting that it must be all or nothing. You are acting like they are either all seditionists, or all honest customers. The truth is, they are clearly not one or the other, but rather a mix of both. Yet you insist on acting like they are all reasonable people with honorable motives as if their is no such thing as a bad gun owner. Or since you seem to think that I'm attacking all of them despite my use of the word "some" in my post, perhaps you are only comfortable thinking in black and white. Or maybe you're just a lier.

Also this takes credit/money that could have gone elsewhere into the economy.

Money doesn't disappear when it's spent. It goes to the retailer, shipper, and manufacturer to reinvest and the employees in wages for them to spend on other things. At this point, if someone has disposable income, it's better for the economy for him to spend it on anything as fast as possible rather than save it. It's not like these people are giving up the money they would otherwise spend on food and shelter for their kids and using it to buy bullets, at least I hope not.

Uuuh....yes.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel...I don't think its so cut and dry.

I admit, I am a firearms enthusiast. I will also say I'm the first person laughing at these guys spending double what a gun is worth because they thing Obama is going to order the Guard to confiscate guns or something like that.

However, I don't think the idea of 2nd Amendment rights being under threat is entirely without merit. The last time we had a Democratic Congress with a Democratic president, we had the Assault Weapons Ban. Another Assault Weapons Ban was a goal of the administration, according to Obama's campaign website (such language has since been pulled).

The past few years, several new editions of the Assault Weapons Ban have been proposed in Congress, by members of the party now controlling both houses. The most recent one has language which A) Expands the federal definition of Assault Weapons to include commonly held firearms, and B) Criminalizes possession of said firearms (the 1994 AWB had a grandfather clause).

Then there is HR 45 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-45). This would mandate everyone who wants to own a firearm go through a licensing process. They would be fingerprinted, photographed, and tested. Because the language regarding the testing requirements is rather vague, it could be seen as similar to the poll tests in the Jim Crow South.

In addition, there are two rather concerning subtitles in the bill. One is who the license is limited to. According to the proposed bill, only a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-45&version=ih&nid=t0:ih:82) may possess firearms (with the exception of bolt action rifles) . Since there is no legal definition as to what exactly a "collector" is, this is worryingly vague. Hypothetically, the federal government may deny a Firearms License to people they do not deem collectors.

The other regards a potential Fourth Amendment conflict. Section 403 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-45&version=ih&nid=t0:ih:202)states (in more words) that Law Enforcement authorities can enter and search any place where firearms are "held for commerce". Interestingly enough, the bill does not ban private sales or transfers of firearms between licensees. Because private sales between licensees are not prohibited, it is possible that any place a licensee keeps firearms may be construed as a place where they are kept for commerce. If this were to be the home (as this is where the majority of qualifying firearms are kept at present), this would, on paper, give law enforcement authorities the right to enter a home, sans warrant or probable cause, to "inspect" the firearms.

Now, most gunowners know that this bill has a snowballs chance in hell of passing. Same with the new AWB. And Obama pulled the AWB language from his urban policy when he realized that he gains nothing and expends valuable political capital doing something that isn't going to make a difference. However, the very fact that these bills have been introduced into congress does give those who see 2nd Amendment rights as threatened some validity to their claims.

Linky:http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/04/ammo.shortage/index.html?eref=rss_topstories



Ok, so that might be a bit of a stretch, but its becoming really hard to buy bullets lately, because you cant find em anywhere. Apperantly a lot of the gun nuts in the country have been listening to the Blob and Beck and are convinced, CONVINCED I TELL YOU that Obama is going to enact a higher tax on bullets or some other such nonsense with no basis in reality, so theyre going buying up all the bullets they can. And of course, we have the demagouges in the NRA doing the "AAAAH EVIL DEMOCRATS HATE UR RIGHTZ!!!!" dance, which is just adding fuel to the buying frenzy.

On the plus side, hey, its consumer spending. Glad to see theyre doing their part to increase consumer spending, and by extension, help the economy. Now if only they were buying something useful in bulk....

Of course, maybe theyre just arming their militias for a coming attempt at sucession. FORT SUMTER!!!!

I didn't know Frederick J. Dukes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blob_(comics)) had his own talk show. :confused:

:tongue:

They obviously know something the rest of us don't...

Zombie Apocalypse maybe?!

Why, have sales of chainsaws been skyrocketing, as well? :p

Even if they did ban bullets and guns, it doesn't mean that we won't be able to get our hands on a gun. America does have a healthy black market, or at least Mexico does.

Even if they did ban bullets and guns, it doesn't mean that we won't be able to get our hands on a gun. America does have a healthy black market, or at least Mexico does.

Even the U.S.S.R. had a black market, which prevented a lot of people, who would have starved otherwise, from starving. In many developing countries, especially Africa, the black market is much larger than the "formal" economy, and it provides jobs for people who might not otherwise be able to obtain them, as well as goods that would be scarce, unaffordable, or unavailable in normal stores.

Even the U.S.S.R. had a black market, which prevented a lot of people, who would have starved otherwise, from starving. In many developing countries, especially Africa, the black market is much larger than the "official" economy, and it provides jobs for people who might not otherwise be able to obtain them, as well as goods that would be scarce, unaffordable, or unavailable in normal stores.

God Bless The Black Markets, where would we be without it?

God Bless The Black Markets, where would we be without it?

If you're not being sarcastic (hard to tell over the internet), I fully agree with you. The black market is the only true free market there is, which is why governments do everything possible to quelch them.

What a waste of time it was for you to type this, considering you premise was a big old strawman.
A lot of people have trouble with my tone out in the real world. They often tell me it's not what I say, it's how I say it that irks them so thoroughly. With you it's the opposite, at least for me. It's what your saying here that bugs me. You don't have a counter to a statement like mine so you just try to dismiss it and hope no one notices that you've made a baseless assertion about the lack of validity of my beliefs. Who the hell are you to dictate what people should and shouldn't care about?

Uuuh....yes.
Uh, no. AG Eric Holder has revived talk of reinstating (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/02/26/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4831751.shtml) and expanding the expired 1994-2004 Assault Weapons Ban to not only outlaw semi-automatic rifles and handguns but also ban centerfire rifle ammunition and private firearms transfers. And it wasn't just Holder, Obama was pushing this during his campaign. Admittedly Pelosi and Reid didn't support Holders press conferrence commentary but bills like HR45, the Blair Holt's Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2009, have begun to crop up. With a fillibuster-proof majority in at least one cameral of the federal legislature it may just be a matter of time before this issue starts to pick up momentum again.

Indri's tip for the day:
Search engines can be useful when looking for things.

If you're not being sarcastic (hard to tell over the internet), I fully agree with you. The black market is the only true free market there is, which is why governments do everything possible to quelch them.

The trouble is, they often are comprised of stolen property. Not that is not how the economy works anyway: If it ain't a government oppressing and ripping-off, then it will be a company.

The trouble is, they often are comprised of stolen property.

Not necessarily. It's usually just things that are illegal. ;)

Not that is not how the economy works anyway: If it ain't a government oppressing and ripping-off, then it will be a company.

Companies that rip people off risk losing customers. Governments stay in business no matter what. Companies can't force you to work for them; governments can (though not all of them do).

Not necessarily. It's usually just things that are illegal. ;)

Why do think those watches are so cheap? Where do you think the assault rifles come from?

Companies that rip people off risk losing customers. Governments stay in business no matter what. Companies can't force you to work for them; governments can (though not all of them do).

Organized thievery is, and always has been, extremely profitable. A family reports that their child has claimed to have been molested--privatized police come, accept money, investigate--accept money from child-molester. "Ma'am, the investigation shows your child is lying."

Why do think those watches are so cheap? Where do you think the assault rifles come from?

They're produced cheaply? Some of this stuff is a lot cheaper to make than you think.

Organized thievery is, and always has been, extremely profitable.

Especially for government.

A family reports that their child has claimed to have been molested--privatized police come, accept money, investigate--accept money from child-molester. "Ma'am, the investigation shows your child is lying."

Somehow I doubt that child molesters would call the police to report child molestation. I further doubt that such a blatantly corrupt company would be able to attract very many customers.

They're produced cheaply? Some of this stuff is a lot cheaper to make than you think.

An M16 is typically stolen. And fancy watches you find at a pawnshop are often hot.

Especially for government.

Really just one big company, except it is not trying to turn a profit.


Somehow I doubt that child molesters would call the police to report child molestation.

No, the cops go over to fellow's house to talk to him, and gladly accept his money.

I further doubt that such a blatantly corrupt company would be able to attract very many customers.

How would they be blatantly corrupt? To the public they just investigated a routine case that was apparently false.

An M16 is typically stolen. And fancy watches you find at a pawnshop are often hot.

Or it's pirated, or homemade. Not all of it is stolen.

Really just one big company, except it is not trying to turn a profit.

Companies generally provide services, and they generally don't force you to pay for the services they provide unless you buy them.

No, the cops go over to fellow's house to talk to him, and gladly accept his money.

How would they be blatantly corrupt? To the public they just investigated a routine case that was apparently false.

Would you ever do business with a company like that? Of course you wouldn't.

Fun factoid: A genuine AK-47 is usually cheaper than a prop or other non-functional replica.

Personally I prefer the SKS or M-1 carbine.

Companies that rip people off risk losing customers. Governments stay in business no matter what. Companies can't force you to work for them; governments can (though not all of them do).

Sure they can. Not by force certainly, but by economic pressure they can. If a company is the only or major employer in a town (and there are a lot of places where this is the case) and the options are work for them or starve, I can assure you most people will work for them - and that's a form of force.

Companies that rip people off only loose customers if people know about it and have an alternative option. This is rarely the case - even when news does get out half the time companies can pay enough people to spread a different story that the impact gets reduced. Alternatively they can wait it out or spin it to minimise damage control. People, as a rule, have surprisingly short memories for things that haven't affected them directly.

Sure they can. Not by force certainly, but by economic pressure they can. If a company is the only or major employer in a town (and there are a lot of places where this is the case) and the options are work for them or starve, I can assure you most people will work for them - and that's a form of force.

That's not force.

Companies that rip people off only loose customers if people know about it and have an alternative option.

People will know about it. You can bet that rival companies will put that information to good use, and consumers will learn about it through word of mouth or through consumer report magazines, websites, etc.

This is rarely the case - even when news does get out half the time companies can pay enough people to spread a different story that the impact gets reduced. Alternatively they can wait it out or spin it to minimise damage control. People, as a rule, have surprisingly short memories for things that haven't affected them directly.

Nothing is stopping other companies from providing better products, better service, or both. If a company produces exceptionally crappy products or provides exceptionally crappy service, it will have to adapt or die sooner or later - unless, of course, that company is politically connected, in which there is no incentive to improve, because it knows it will always have money no matter what (for example, the U.S. auto industry).

Gun lover said in same tone as child molester?
The OP didn't make the above analogy, but you just did. :eek2:

Even if they did ban bullets and guns, it doesn't mean that we won't be able to get our hands on a gun. America does have a healthy black market, or at least Mexico does.

Mexico gets the vast majority of its black market guns from the USA. It would be simpler and cheaper just to buy a gun in the USA. You would also be helping your local economy.

As for the OP, Obama does have a history of supporting gun control legislation.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_obama.html
However, with the ongoing wars, financial crisis, his hopes for some sort of universal healthcare, his shift in iforeign policy, etc., I don't think he has the time or the political capital to piss off a lot of people who would otherwise support some of his other plans.

In other words, there is evidence he might want to do something, but little evidence that he can.

Mexico gets the vast majority of its black market guns from the USA. It would be simpler and cheaper just to buy a gun in the USA. You would also be helping your local economy.

As for the OP, Obama does have a history of supporting gun control legislation.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_obama.html
However, with the ongoing wars, financial crisis, his hopes for some sort of universal healthcare, his shift in iforeign policy, etc., I don't think he has the time or the political capital to piss off a lot of people who would otherwise support some of his other plans.

In other words, there is evidence he might want to do something, but little evidence that he can.

He had mentioned bringing back the assault weapons ban.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1
But he dropped it pretty quick.
People are more informed on the issue, and realize when DC says assault weapons they don't mean weapons with an added ability to kill. Instead Dc means weapons that look scary.

As for the effect on the economy they will be almost nil. It in spending, people are buying now what they would have bought over the course of years and it will result drop in demand later. Next the production of bullets will drive up the price of the metals in making the bullets making other items associated with the various metals(such as domestically produce cars) more expensive and less competitive.

The OP didn't make the above analogy, but you just did. :eek2:

My point is the OPs title is pejorative. What does "gun lovers paranoia" sound like to you?

You don't reuse your brass.

I do re-use it. You can't do that forever, though.

Everything is in short supply. I'm going to run out of primers and I can't even find those at Midway-USA. Damn!

My point is the OPs title is pejorative. What does "gun lovers paranoia" sound like to you?

Meh! I think the OP's title refers to the actual post fine.

I do re-use it. You can't do that forever, though.

Everything is in short supply. I'm going to run out of primers and I can't even find those at Midway-USA. Damn!

yeah. though I normally lose my brass before I can't reuse it.
Try a gun range they might be willing to sell you the brass they have.
As for primers yeah that's running low too. might have to get my civil war reenactment weapon out and target practice with that. Rifled musket for the win.

Meh! I think the OP's title refers to the actual post fine.

People who dont shoot dont understand and draw bizzare conclusions. I have a Colt AR-15. A case of 1000 bullets is around $350. Sounds like a shitload of bullets and a huge stockpile doesnt it. The simple fact is, in an hour you can easily shoot 200-300 rounds. Thats 3-5 trips to the range. If you go once a week for one hour those supplies are completely gone in a month. The backorder for bullets is 6-8 weeks or more. I simply cant afford $1000 to stockpile 3 months of bullets in advance. And if i did, and if you heard that i had 5000 bullets you would think i was planning an insurgency in your ignorance and say nobody needs that many bullets ,but im in fact just doing normal behavior for this hobby.

yeah. though I normally lose my brass before I can't reuse it.
Try a gun range they might be willing to sell you the brass they have.
As for primers yeah that's running low too. might have to get my civil war reenactment weapon out and target practice with that. Rifled musket for the win.
I guess the 45 cal stuff lasts longer than the rifle brass. Resizing really does shorten the life of 30.06 and .223 brass. I can't find that, either.

People who dont shoot dont understand and draw bizzare conclusions. I have a Colt AR-15. A case of 1000 bullets is around $350. Sounds like a shitload of bullets and a huge stockpile doesnt it. The simple fact is, in an hour you can easily shoot 200-300 rounds. Thats 3-5 trips to the range. If you go once a week for one hour those supplies are completely gone in a month. The backorder for bullets is 6-8 weeks or more. I simply cant afford $1000 to stockpile 3 months of bullets in advance. And if i did, and if you heard that i had 5000 bullets you would think i was planning an insurgency in your ignorance and say nobody needs that many bullets ,but im in fact just doing normal behavior for this hobby.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the paronia spoken about in the OP?

I'm not sure what that has to do with the paronia spoken about in the OP?

The OP is misinterpreting the bullet demand. Its not paranoia its the market. Guns go up and down in price and availability. Cars go up and down in price and availability. Its not seditionists stockpiling for an invasion. The OP refers to sedition and Fort Sumpter with capital letters and exclamation points in case his ridiculous assertions wernt clear enough for you.

The OP is misinterpreting the bullet demand. Its not paranoia its the market. Guns go up and down in price and availability. Cars go up and down in price and availability. Its not seditionists stockpiling for an invasion. The OP refers to sedition and Fort Sumpter with capital letters and exclamation points in case his ridiculous assertions wernt clear enough for you.

Ahhhhh I see.

I think I just got caught up in the link he provided, this bit right here:

'Gun shops across the country are reporting a run on ammunition, a phenomenon apparently driven by fear that the Obama administration will increase taxes on bullets or enact new gun-control measures.'

That's right from a news source, and I would say that whether this is true or not, if you belive the story, then a fear of tighter gun controls, or higher tax on bullets leading to a mass purchase of ammo does seem like paronia to me.

I guess the 45 cal stuff lasts longer than the rifle brass. Resizing really does shorten the life of 30.06 and .223 brass. I can't find that, either.

most of my shooting is with pistols.

If you're not being sarcastic (hard to tell over the internet), I fully agree with you. The black market is the only true free market there is, which is why governments do everything possible to quelch them.

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Why do think those watches are so cheap? Where do you think the assault rifles come from?



Organized thievery is, and always has been, extremely profitable. A family reports that their child has claimed to have been molested--privatized police come, accept money, investigate--accept money from child-molester. "Ma'am, the investigation shows your child is lying."

That is true, Black Markets do often sell stuff that are "hot", and don't we already have police force that accept bribery?

Ahhhhh I see.

I think I just got caught up in the link he provided, this bit right here:

'Gun shops across the country are reporting a run on ammunition, a phenomenon apparently driven by fear that the Obama administration will increase taxes on bullets or enact new gun-control measures.'

That's right from a news source, and I would say that whether this is true or not, if you belive the story, then a fear of tighter gun controls, or higher tax on bullets leading to a mass purchase of ammo does seem like paronia to me.

Yea, because news would never ever sensationalize a story! I mean NEVER! :rolleyes:

Yea, because news would never ever sensationalize a story! I mean NEVER! :rolleyes:

Hah like I said, wether the news report is true or not, if one belives it, then it certianly can be called paronia.:D

That's right from a news source, and I would say that whether this is true or not, if you belive the story, then a fear of tighter gun controls, or higher tax on bullets leading to a mass purchase of ammo does seem like paronia to me.

Why do you define this as paranoia? Paranoia is defined as suspicion and mistrust of people or their actions without justification or evidence. Several posters have cited proposed Bills that sound like justification or evidence for thier position. The Governor of Pennsylvania (My State) went on Meet the Press just 3 weeks ago and said he wants Assault Rifles banned. (They are currently legal in PA) This sounds like further justification and evidence and in fact not paranoia.

Why do you define this as paranoia? Paranoia is defined as suspicion and mistrust of people or their actions without justification or evidence. Several posters have cited proposed Bills that sound like justification or evidence for thier position. The Governor of Pennsylvania (My State) went on Meet the Press just 3 weeks ago and said he wants Assault Rifles banned. (They are currently legal in PA) This sounds like further justification and evidence and in fact not paranoia.


Well me being a citerzen of the UK I have no idea as to the validity of the story, although it seems that others here do not belive it. Until such a time as this tax IS upped or tighter gun controls ARE put in place, then I have to treat any claim that people are buying bullets on mass because they have heard this or that as paronia.

A lot of people have trouble with my tone out in the real world. They often tell me it's not what I say, it's how I say it that irks them so thoroughly. With you it's the opposite, at least for me. It's what your saying here that bugs me. You don't have a counter to a statement like mine so you just try to dismiss it and hope no one notices that you've made a baseless assertion about the lack of validity of my beliefs. Who the hell are you to dictate what people should and shouldn't care about?
What? This doesnt connect with what you said earlier. You made this claim that I think that everyone with seditionist symapthies should be locked up. Which isnt at all what I said.

But Im glad I irk you.;)
Uh, no. AG Eric Holder has revived talk of reinstating (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/02/26/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4831751.shtml) and expanding the expired 1994-2004 Assault Weapons Ban to not only outlaw semi-automatic rifles and handguns but also ban centerfire rifle ammunition and private firearms transfers. And it wasn't just Holder, Obama was pushing this during his campaign. Admittedly Pelosi and Reid didn't support Holders press conferrence commentary but bills like HR45, the Blair Holt's Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2009, have begun to crop up. With a fillibuster-proof majority in at least one cameral of the federal legislature it may just be a matter of time before this issue starts to pick up momentum again.
As I said, earlier, this would be relevent if the only ammo flying off the shelves was assualt weapon ammo.

Its not.

The OP is misinterpreting the bullet demand. Its not paranoia its the market. Guns go up and down in price and availability. Cars go up and down in price and availability. Its not seditionists stockpiling for an invasion.
Yeah, but my source says that its more then normal demand. Even the NRA hints at it.
The OP refers to sedition and Fort Sumpter with capital letters and exclamation points in case his ridiculous assertions wernt clear enough for you.
My Fort Sumter comment was a joke that the regulars will get. That you dont get it doesnt mean it means what you think it means.

Why do you define this as paranoia? Paranoia is defined as suspicion and mistrust of people or their actions without justification or evidence. Several posters have cited proposed Bills that sound like justification or evidence for thier position. The Governor of Pennsylvania (My State) went on Meet the Press just 3 weeks ago and said he wants Assault Rifles banned. (They are currently legal in PA) This sounds like further justification and evidence and in fact not paranoia.

Again, the Assualt Weapons ban would be relevent if they were JUST BUYING ASSUALT WEAPONS ammo. But theyre not.

They think ALL ammo is gonna disappear.

Thus, theyre paranoid.

Man, irking off gun lovers is so easy. I didnt even try to and so many of you just freaked.

My point is the OPs title is pejorative. What does "gun lovers paranoia" sound like to you?
Funny how no one took that as some connection with child molesters but you.

Why are you so defensive?

I see I have been ignored. : (

Of course, maybe theyre just arming their militias for a coming attempt at sucession. FORT SUMTER!!!!

I think you mean 'secession.' Also, help me out here. What does 'Fort Sumter' mean? I see people yell it(figuratively)at each other all the time, that and call each other 'Leeroy.' Am I behind the times on yet another Internet meme?

As for bullets, if they do become scare or taxed, you can always make your own, you know. I've been known to do that for myself, in a very small scale own-use, hobby kind of way. It can be a pain in the ass to do in quantity, but it can be done.

I think you mean 'secession.' Also, help me out here. What does 'Fort Sumter' mean? I see people yell it(figuratively)at each other all the time, that and call each other 'Leeroy.' Am I behind the times on yet another Internet meme?

It's all from the poster New Mittanni. He suggested secession ("Fort Sumter", the first battle of the Civil War) after Obama's election. Of course, the charging into random Obama related threats and saying that gave him the nickname Leeroy, from Leeroy Jenkins. In popular internet culture, it's this World Of Warcraft Video where a player called 'Leeroy Jenkins' skips this long and overly advanced plan to attack someplace, shouts his name at the top of his lungs, and charges in. You should look it up, it's quite humorous.

It's all from the poster New Mittanni. He suggested secession ("Fort Sumter", the first battle of the Civil War) after Obama's election. Of course, the charging into random Obama related threats and saying that gave him the nickname Leeroy, from Leeroy Jenkins. In popular internet culture, it's this World Of Warcraft Video where a player called 'Leeroy Jenkins' skips this long and overly advanced plan to attack someplace, shouts his name at the top of his lungs, and charges in. You should look it up, it's quite humorous.

I see. Maybe I'll check that out then. Although, as a battle cry or political slogan, "Fort Sumter' may not have been the best choice. The battle there kicked off a conflict, that, until Gettysburg more than two years later, pretty much went the Confederacy's way. 'Appomattox' might be more appropriate, being the site of Lee's surrender(if we continue to follow the seccesion theme, anyways.)

As for NM, while my thoughts may travel in somewhat the same channels as his philosophically, I find that, more often than not, his methods and general comportment do leave something to be desired.

Again, the Assualt Weapons ban would be relevent if they were JUST BUYING ASSUALT WEAPONS ammo. But theyre not.

They think ALL ammo is gonna disappear.

Thus, theyre paranoid.

Man, irking off gun lovers is so easy. I didnt even try to and so many of you just freaked.

The AR15 (one of the firearms considered an Assault Weapon under the old Federal ban) can be adapted to shoot several different pistol calibers, such as .22, 9mm, .45 ACP, .50AE, etc. All that is needed is a new upper receiver, and the correct magazines. Also, some of the firearms listed on the latest AWB bill (that apparently died in committee) shoot the same pistol caliber cartridges listed in the article.

God dammit, I spend 10 minuted writing a nice post, and I'm 'nored. Me so sad.

Or it's pirated, or homemade. Not all of it is stolen.

Most of it is. Except for things that are inherently illegal, why do you think it is called the "black market"?



Companies generally provide services, and they generally don't force you to pay for the services they provide unless you buy them.

If a company was allowed to buy its own army and police force it certainly would. Especially if said company was not controlled democratically.

Would you ever do business with a company like that? Of course you wouldn't.

How would I know the company was doing that?

I see I have been ignored. : (

God dammit, I spend 10 minuted writing a nice post, and I'm 'nored. Me so sad.

I liked your post. :)

I don't really have much to add to the thread, though.

God dammit, I spend 10 minuted writing a nice post, and I'm 'nored. Me so sad.

If you say something stupid and short, I guarantee you will receive responses.

Man, irking off gun lovers is so easy. I didnt even try to and so many of you just freaked.

We are very sensitive; your OP hurt our feelings. :(

If you say something stupid and short, I guarantee you will receive responses.

LOLZ GUNZ R TEH SHIZNIT PROTECT FROM GUBMINT RON PAUL RON PAUL!!!1!!!111

Better?

LOLZ GUNZ R TEH SHIZNIT PROTECT FROM GUBMINT RON PAUL RON PAUL!!!1!!!111

Better?

Not bad. It looks out of place here, though, so someone might just shrug it off as sarcasm.

How about: "A man deserves to always have two things: his gun and his Bible. To steal either is as bad as stealing the other."

Most of it is. Except for things that are inherently illegal, why do you think it is called the "black market"?

Definition #5 (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/black#Adjective)

It's "black" because it's "illegitimate" (non-government sanctioned).

If a company was allowed to buy its own army and police force it certainly would. Especially if said company was not controlled democratically.

You read Jennifer Government again, didn't you? :p

How would I know the company was doing that?

Do you really think word of it wouldn't spread?

LOLZ GUNZ R TEH SHIZNIT PROTECT FROM GUBMINT RON PAUL RON PAUL!!!1!!!111

Better?

http://bitsblog.florack.us/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/ron-paul-babies.jpg

(Couldn't resist. ;))

Definition #5 (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/black#Adjective)

It's "black" because it's "illegitimate" (non-government sanctioned).

Like stolen?

You read Jennifer Government again, didn't you? :p

It is a damned fine book that makes sense. Why should a company not do the same thing the government does if given the opportunity?

Do you really think word of it wouldn't spread?

There would never be any proof. And I think any company would be bound to cater to the rich over anyone else. They get a ring: "Help! My brother has just been axed to death!" Response: "Sorry, the billionaire who just lost his dog is our priority." And if some rich person decided to start killing every night, every police force would continually provide "inconclusive" investigations, because millions of dollars a week makes-up for a few disgruntled janitors.

Now just think about privatized courts....

What? This doesnt connect with what you said earlier. You made this claim that I think that everyone with seditionist symapthies should be locked up. Which isnt at all what I said.
Your whole argument here is that guns bad (they're inanimate objects with no intrinsic moral value), there is no reason to suspect that the current administration is planning to reinstate draconian gun bans (the AG and the president have made it clear that they intend to do exactly that), that there is no reason to purchase guns or ammo (if the current administration wants to outlaw them then there's plenty of reason), and that those participating in this buy up are probably seditionists.
Considering some of the noise coming out of the extreme right, its not a stretch to say that some of them may be seditionists.

But Im glad I irk you.;)
You and about a hundred other things.

As I said, earlier, this would be relevent if the only ammo flying off the shelves was assualt weapon ammo.
The unconstitutional DC ban wasn't just on assault weapons. And if you want to argue the effectiveness of a gun ban on crime then I'd just like to point out that the gun ban in DC didn't really help lower the crime rate.

Its not.
It is, you just don't want to accept it. Now that your prefered candidate is in charge Ceaser can do no wrong.

Hey, we rose taxes on cigarettes, why not raise taxes on bullets?

Hey, we rose taxes on cigarettes, why not raise taxes on bullets?

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why there is a run on bullets right now.

God dammit, I spend 10 minuted writing a nice post, and I'm 'nored. Me so sad.

Tell you what, next tine someone in this thread says that there is no evidence for support of gun control by the current administration, I'll link to your post, okay?

Not bad. It looks out of place here, though, so someone might just shrug it off as sarcasm.

How about: "A man deserves to always have two things: his gun and his Bible. To steal either is as bad as stealing the other."

Oooooooooooooh, that's a good one.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why there is a run on bullets right now.

I think Obama should start threatening to ban cars and houses so maybe we can start selling a few of them and get our economy going again.

I think Obama should start threatening to ban cars and houses so maybe we can start selling a few of them and get our economy going again.

:p Three letters - bastard forum.

I think Obama should start threatening to ban cars and houses so maybe we can start selling a few of them and get our economy going again.

Ammunition is a consumable, whereas cars and houses aren't.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why there is a run on bullets right now.

So... By that logic, there should be a run on melons too? "They rose taxes on cigarettes, they'll raise them on melons"? The only similarities between a cigarette and a gun is they're phallic and they kill people.

So... By that logic, there should be a run on melons too? "They rose taxes on cigarettes, they'll raise them on melons"? The only similarities between a cigarette and a gun is they're phallic and they kill people.

Bullets don't kill people, mass bodily trauma kills people.

Bullets don't kill people, mass bodily trauma kills people.

Wait, now. Let's not hijack this thread with a bans-on-melons thing. :p

Wait, now. Let's not hijack this thread with a bans-on-melons thing. :p

If we ban melons, only criminals will have melons.

If we ban melons, only criminals will have melons.

"If melons are outlawed, only outlaws will have melons."

Mmm, Jessica Alb*Gets shot*

"If melons are outlawed, only outlaws will have melons."

Mmm, Jessica Alb*Gets shot*

Any restriction on Melon possession or melon registration scheme is obviously a restriction on my right to Keep and Bear Produce.