NationStates Jolt Archive

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/05/200953201315854832.html
'Witness for Jesus' in Afghanistan

US soldiers have been encouraged to spread the message of their Christian faith among Afghanistan's predominantly Muslim population, video footage obtained by Al Jazeera appears to show.

Military chaplains stationed in the US air base at Bagram were also filmed with bibles printed in the country's main Pashto and Dari languages.

In one recorded sermon, Lieutenant-Colonel Gary Hensley, the chief of the US military chaplains in Afghanistan, is seen telling soldiers that as followers of Jesus Christ, they all have a responsibility "to be witnesses for him".

"The special forces guys - they hunt men basically. We do the same things as Christians, we hunt people for Jesus. We do, we hunt them down," he says.

"Get the hound of heaven after them, so we get them into the kingdom. That's what we do, that's our business."

Hmmm...just why do I think this is going to lead to problems?

So, what do you think? Do you agree or disagree with the rules of the US Military in this regard? And what can be done to enforce them better?

Dear, oh, dear.

Wow. Consider my genuinely shocked. oh wait I'm lying. How predictable of americans in positions of authority.

Wow. Consider my genuinely shocked. oh wait I'm lying. How predictable of americans in positions of authority.

How predictable that some idiot would lump all Americans together.

How predictable that some idiot would lump all Americans together.

Didn't. Said specifically 'in positions of authority'.

Well, its dependent on Context...which, Im not sure I would trust Al Jazeera to handle too well when it comes to Americans...

If Chaplains and Christian members of the Military want to hand out Bibles go ahead...

If they start discouraging Islam, however, that would be a different issue, and would need to be stamped out...

Didn't. Said specifically 'in positions of authority'.

You might have a point their, given that until recently, at least, the Christian Right has dominated much of the government. However, It's still an innacurate generalization.

So, what do you think? Do you agree or disagree with the rules of the US Military in this regard? And what can be done to enforce them better?

I think you need to quit getting your news from Al-Jazeera. Also, I don't know if "one chaplain's take on the religious duties of Christianity" = "official policy of the U.S. military." As far as I know, the USAF does not have an official policy on converting heathens.

You might have a point their, given that until recently, at least, the Christian Right has dominated much of the government. However, It's still an innacurate generalization.

Of course it is. it's a pithy one line remark. A more accurate point would be that the evangelical christians in government do so much of this stuff that it can actually be seen by an outsider as being a typical action conducted by many americans once they find themselves in positions of authority as positions of authority tend to be handed out to evangelical christians BY evangelical christians. I am under no illusion that despite the replacement of the government, there are many such americans in positions of authority ready and waiting to exploit their power to foist their religion on others.

Who "encouraged" them? One chaplain does not make official policy.

I think you need to quit getting your news from Al-Jazeera. Also, I don't know if "one chaplain's take on the religious duties of Christianity" = "official policy of the U.S. military." As far as I know, the USAF does not have an official policy on converting heathens.
The official policy, as quoted in the article, is that proselytising is strictly forbidden. These guys may be either walking a fine line, or just plain breaking official policy.

Secondly, Al Jazeera is a perfectly valid source of news.

And finally, and most importantly, Al Jazeera is also the source of news people in the Middle East are most likely to be watching these days, hence it usually represents their way of looking at things more closely.

Secondly, Al Jazeera is a perfectly valid source of news.



Al Jazeera is not a perfectly valid source of news, especially when it comes to Americans...

No more than Fox is a perfectly valid source of news for Democrats, or Obama...

Who "encouraged" them? One chaplain does not make official policy.
The article says quite clearly that official policy is against this sort of thing. But the chaplain obviously disagrees.

It is not clear if the presence of the Bibles and exhortations for soldiers to be "witnesses" for Jesus continues, but they were filmed a year ago despite regulations by the US military's Central Command that expressly forbid "proselytising of any religion, faith or practice".

It is not clear any of the local language Bibles were distributed to Afghans
But in another piece of footage taken by Hughes, the chaplains appear to have found a way around the regulation known as General Order Number One.

"Do we know what it means to proselytise?" Captain Emmit Furner, a military chaplain, says to the gathering.

"It is General Order Number One," an unidentified soldier replies.

But Watt says "you can't proselytise but you can give gifts".

Please people, click on the link and read the entire story!

The article says quite clearly that official policy is against this sort of thing. But the chaplain obviously disagrees.



Please people, click on the link and read the entire story!

I did...


But I would say there is a difference between handing out Bibles and actively trying to convert people...

I was given a Bible at College, doesnt mean the man made any attempts to convert me, especially considering that I threw it away afterwards...

I think this is Al Jezeera making a small group look like the majority. Al Jezeera is like any News Channel anywhere, they have to make things sensational.

Al Jazeera is not a perfectly valid source of news, especially when it comes to Americans...
Are there any particular things that make you say that?

Are there any particular things that make you say that?

Yeah, the openly negative way they report on Americans...

Just like Fox openly reports negatively on Democrats...

I thought the Analogy was self explanatory...

Yeah, the openly negative way they report on Americans...
Do you actually follow Al Jazeera? Seriously, they're not that bad. They occasionally do sensationalist articles, like anyone else, but really the main difference is simply that they judge policies from the perspective of people in the Middle East. That's what makes them valuable for two reasons: firstly, you never get that perspective from Western agencies, and secondly they are the first to report on these things. The really Anti-American stuff probably doesn't make it into the English language edition or the news articles. It'll be left to the Arabic editorials.

The fact of the matter is that CNN doesn't have this story yet. Neither does Fox or Reuters.

Do you actually follow Al Jazeera? Seriously, they're not that bad. They occasionally do sensationalist articles, like anyone else, but really the main difference is simply that they judge policies from the perspective of people in the Middle East. That's what makes them valuable for two reasons: firstly, you never get that perspective from Western agencies, and secondly they are the first to report on these things. The really Anti-American stuff probably doesn't make it into the English language edition or the news articles. It'll be left to the Arabic editorials.

The fact of the matter is that CNN doesn't have this story yet. Neither does Fox or Reuters.

Meh, Id go find examples, cause their bias has been in the news here, although, come to think of it, they could be being just as sensational...

But, Its 3:00 AM in my neck of the woods, I gotta make myself get off and go to sleep...

Do you actually follow Al Jazeera? Seriously, they're not that bad. They occasionally do sensationalist articles, like anyone else, but really the main difference is simply that they judge policies from the perspective of people in the Middle East. That's what makes them valuable for two reasons: firstly, you never get that perspective from Western agencies, and secondly they are the first to report on these things. The really Anti-American stuff probably doesn't make it into the English language edition or the news articles. It'll be left to the Arabic editorials.

The fact of the matter is that CNN doesn't have this story yet. Neither does Fox or Reuters.

Here's an interesting article.

Dave Marash: Why I Quit (http://www.cjr.org/the_water_cooler/dave_marash_why_i_quit.php?page=all)

Marash for a time worked in Al-Jazeera English.

Al Jazeera frequently has Max Keiser as a guest. It's something they share with Alex Jones.

Now, it's entirely possible that Max, Alex and Al Jazeera are right, and the sort of things they talk about when they get together really are news. But if that's the case then the US army handing out a few bibles in Afghanistan really are the least of the world's problems.

But I tend to think that Al Jazeera, despite probably good intentions originally, tends to get the wrong end of the stick quite a bit.

It is not clear if the presence of the Bibles and exhortations for soldiers to be "witnesses" for Jesus continues, but they were filmed a year ago

It is not clear any of the local language Bibles were distributed to Afghans. But in another piece of footage taken by Hughes, the chaplains appear to have found a way around the regulation known as General Order Number One.

Al-Jazeera's questionable validity aside, that's a whole lot of guess-work and assumption in those two paragraphs. Plus, is something that may or may not have happened a year ago really something to get all heated about?

It is not clear if the presence of the Bibles and exhortations for soldiers to be "witnesses" for Jesus continues, but they were filmed a year ago

It is not clear any of the local language Bibles were distributed to Afghans. But in another piece of footage taken by Hughes, the chaplains appear to have found a way around the regulation known as General Order Number One.

Al-Jazeera's questionable validity aside, that's a whole lot of guess-work and assumption in those two paragraphs. Plus, is something that may or may not have happened a year ago really something to get all heated about?

Besides AJE's problem with perspective, if this had been true you'd think Ann Coulter would have been trumpeting this as a shining example of her "Kill them all and convert them to Christianity" idea being carried out.

The article says quite clearly that official policy is against this sort of thing. But the chaplain obviously disagrees.

Some supposedly pro-America zealot gives not a shit about the United States' laws--what else is new?

Your title is misleading.

I think this is Al Jezeera making a small group look like the majority. Al Jezeera is like any News Channel anywhere, they have to make things sensational.

My thoughts exactly.

Besides AJE's problem with perspective, if this had been true you'd think Ann Coulter would have been trumpeting this as a shining example of her "Kill them all and convert them to Christianity" idea being carried out.

Well, you know, the soldiers have somehow unaccountably failed to shoot innocent civillians for not taking the Bibles, but that's probably just testament to their utter incomptence as a military. (hey, this isn't so hard, maybe I could work for Al-Jazeera)

I was given a Bible at College, doesnt mean the man made any attempts to convert me, especially considering that I threw it away afterwards...

I encased mine in ice and smashed it with a sledgehammer...

...I'm going to Hell, aren't I? :eek2:
; )

I encased mine in ice and smashed it with a sledgehammer...

...I'm going to Hell, aren't I? :eek2:
; )

Friends of mine once used the Gideon Bible they leave in motel rooms for tobacco paper. We're really gone. :$

Edit: Props on the sig quote by the way.

I encased mine in ice and smashed it with a sledgehammer...

...I'm going to Hell, aren't I? :eek2:
; )

...or Art College

It is not clear if the presence of the Bibles and exhortations for soldiers to be "witnesses" for Jesus continues, but they were filmed a year ago

It is not clear any of the local language Bibles were distributed to Afghans. But in another piece of footage taken by Hughes, the chaplains appear to have found a way around the regulation known as General Order Number One.

Al-Jazeera's questionable validity aside, that's a whole lot of guess-work and assumption in those two paragraphs. Plus, is something that may or may not have happened a year ago really something to get all heated about?
this is no different than any news outlet reporting any breach of army protocol.

its what the news does.

It must be true, it's on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVGmbzDLq5c).


:D


edit:
Seriously, it's a link to an english language news report about the issue.

It is not clear any of the local language Bibles were distributed to Afghans.

Of course, the local language bibles were obviously sent to China.

they said it violated the Constitution to proselytize

they said it violated the Constitution to proselytize

I dunno about that, but it violates the UCMJ.

I dunno about that, but it violates the UCMJ.

the UCMJ is not the Constitution.
there is illegal and there is unconstitutional.
Besides if they don't speak the local language all they are doing is giving gifts of the bible.

It's not surprising that a chaplain, military or not, is asking the soldiers to 'spread the word'. This sort of thing isn't exclusive to the US either.

On an interesting side not: US Army chaplains are required to be able to administer the rites of soldiers, even in cases where the soldiers faith is different from that of the chaplains. Essentially, a Christian (or muslim, jewish etc) chaplain would have to be able to administer the rites for a wiccan (satanic, buddist etc) soldier in his unit. There is even a list of recognized religions, and yes, it includes Wicca and Satanism.

Al Jazeera is clearly becoming closer and closer to the terrorists and their efforts to stir up hate against the American military and their mission of truth, justice and freedom.

You watch this 'news' channel. Listen carefully to the weatherman...
'DEATH TO THE WEST!!! Showers in the East'

the UCMJ is not the Constitution.
there is illegal and there is unconstitutional.
Besides if they don't speak the local language all they are doing is giving gifts of the bible.

I suspect that particular loophole is not as loopholey as that chaplain thinks it is.

I suspect that particular loophole is not as loopholey as that chaplain thinks it is.

Considering it was over a year ago, I bet he got away with it.

Meh, prayers to jehovah and prayers to allah wind up at the same place.

they said it violated the Constitution to proselytize

The Afghani constitution.

See I think they want to make it about religion. They really want to make this into a holy war. I think this is propaganda material. I think it is unwise to pursue this course of action. Unless of course you want to bring it to a head.

Things being unwise doesn't always stop people from pursuing them, I'm afraid.

"Modern Day Crusade" springs to mind.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/05/200953201315854832.html


Hmmm...just why do I think this is going to lead to problems?

So, what do you think? Do you agree or disagree with the rules of the US Military in this regard? And what can be done to enforce them better?

The article says that they just hand the Bible out as gift, that's it. The Arabs probably laughed, and then threw it away.

Besides AJE's problem with perspective, if this had been true you'd think Ann Coulter would have been trumpeting this as a shining example of her "Kill them all and convert them to Christianity" idea being carried out.

Don't be silly, she would never use AJE as a new's source, they are a terrorist heathen news source!

On an interesting side not: US Army chaplains are required to be able to administer the rites of soldiers, even in cases where the soldiers faith is different from that of the chaplains. Essentially, a Christian (or muslim, jewish etc) chaplain would have to be able to administer the rites for a wiccan (satanic, buddist etc) soldier in his unit. There is even a list of recognized religions, and yes, it includes Wicca and Satanism.

Yea, I think I saw a program on the History Channel about that. The same thing applies to prisons right? Sometimes I am tempted to join the military, and have the chaplain perform a Wiccan ritual. Just so he can have his eyes open a bit. I'd even let him borrow my book of shadows.

Meh, prayers to jehovah and prayers to allah wind up at the same place.

Well, they are Abrahamic religions.

Things being unwise doesn't always stop people from pursuing them, I'm afraid.

Seems they are treading the fine line as it were. Who us proselytizing? No way, however we are giving out these bible everywhere does that count?

Seems like a very military way of handling things. We can can go this far but no further.

The article says that they just hand the Bible out as gift, that's it. The Arabs probably laughed, and then threw it away.

Nonsense! We both know they'd have more sense than to waste perfectly good kindling. :p

Nonsense! We both know they'd have more sense than to waste perfectly good kindling. :p

Heh true. Although I don't burn holy books myself, mostly out of respect.

Heh true. Although I don't burn holy books myself, mostly out of respect.

What about unholy books? :D

What about unholy books? :D

Sure, I burn Ann Coulter's book all the time. But then I hear the screams of a thousand souls and the room gets cold, even with a bonfire roaring.

Then comes the nightmares....

Sure, I burn Ann Coulter's book all the time. But then I hear the screams of a thousand souls and the room gets cold, even with a bonfire roaring.

Then comes the nightmares....

There's your problem. You burn Ann Coulter's book in confined space with inadequate ventilation.

Heh true. Although I don't burn holy books myself, mostly out of respect.

What about unholy books? :p

What about unholy books? :p

Someone beat you to that, and I responded.

Sometimes I am tempted to join the military, and have the chaplain perform a Wiccan ritual. Just so he can have his eyes open a bit. I'd even let him borrow my book of shadows.
Because you want to recruit more people to your religion? (if they don't like your religion obviously they are ignorant?) or because you want to do something to make them uncomfortable to make yourself feel better? (aren't you supposed to do no harm?)

Yea, I think I saw a program on the History Channel about that. The same thing applies to prisons right? Sometimes I am tempted to join the military, and have the chaplain perform a Wiccan ritual. Just so he can have his eyes open a bit. I'd even let him borrow my book of shadows.



Stateside they defer you to a local Wiccan group.
If there are no local wiccan groups they normally defer you to a solider lead group. Even if you managed to force them they be a douche and ruin the whole ceremony.


The major exception being last rites or other death/dying ritual.

Because you want to recruit more people to your religion? (if they don't like your religion obviously they are ignorant?) or because you want to do something to make them uncomfortable to make yourself feel better? (aren't you supposed to do no harm?)

Nope, I don't actively recruit people into Wicca, the phrase "If you build it, they will come" applies here. It has been my experience that there are alot of people who are ignorant of Paganism in general (not just Wicca), this would be my way of exposing them to the faith that may open their eyes alittle, and for funies. Also, what harm would I be doing?

Stateside they defer you to a local Wiccan group.
If there are no local wiccan groups they normally defer you to a solider lead group. Even if you managed to force them they be a douche and ruin the whole ceremony.


The major exception being last rites or other death/dying ritual.

Ah, well there goes my plans.

Wilgrove: Having my chaplain (Catholic) perform Satanic rituals for me crossed my mind, but I refrained out of respect for him, myself, and both our beliefs.

Wilgrove: Having my chaplain (Catholic) perform Satanic rituals for me crossed my mind, but I refrained out of respect for him, myself, and both our beliefs.

Ah good point. If I was in the military I'd probably just go to a local Pagan group off the base.

Why the hell are they wasting their time doing that when they could just kill everybody instead?

Because you want to recruit more people to your religion? (if they don't like your religion obviously they are ignorant?) or because you want to do something to make them uncomfortable to make yourself feel better? (aren't you supposed to do no harm?)

It's as good a reason as any. At least he's not kidnapping Scottish policemen and burning them alive inside huge puppety things.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/05/200953201315854832.html


Hmmm...just why do I think this is going to lead to problems?

So, what do you think? Do you agree or disagree with the rules of the US Military in this regard? And what can be done to enforce them better?

*facepalm*

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/05/200953201315854832.html


Hmmm...just why do I think this is going to lead to problems?

So, what do you think? Do you agree or disagree with the rules of the US Military in this regard? And what can be done to enforce them better?

as long as they aren't doing it outside the wire. Should not be a problem.

as long as they aren't doing it outside the wire. Should not be a problem.

There's more to worry (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/washington/01church.html?scp=1&sq=%22religion%20in%20the%20us%20military%22&st=cse) about than what's happening overseas. Or did you miss the news coverage of the problems at the Air Force Academy back in '05? Officially the US military is officially neutral on religion but we had the Air Force football coach hanging a huge banner in the locker room that read "Team Jesus".

So I would disagree. Inside the wire or out, it's not okay.

The article says that they just hand the Bible out as gift, that's it. The Arabs probably laughed, and then threw it away.




They aren't Arabs.

Seeing as one of the recruiting lines for extremists over there is that the US is on a crusade, its a remarkably stupid thing to do.

I was given a Bible at College, doesnt mean the man made any attempts to convert me, especially considering that I threw it away afterwards...

Actually he was trying to convert you. Why else would he give you the bible?

Barring that this is not propoganda, then what a fucking stupid idea.

It's as good a reason as any. At least he's not kidnapping Scottish policemen and burning them alive inside huge puppety things.

That was kind of a random place to stick a Wicker Man reference...

I disagree. Thats the job of missionaries! I mean if soldiers start doing this stuff then what are the missionaries going to do!? I mean they'll have to get real jobs! :p But seriously now, I do disagree, the military's job is to protect us not spread religion. And of course I doubt this kind of action will go over well with the Muslim Community.

The only religious message that should be delivered is that if your God tells you to kill people in his name then he is not a God. Maybe if we stopped dicking around over there and fire bombed all those opium plants, they would stop listening to what their buzz tells them to do.

...then they would lose all income, and then the Taliban would hire them.

Destroying rural Afghanistan's only real source of income is a horrible idea. Too bad we're doing it now.

1- For now it seems it's just one moron of a chaplain.

2- If it isn't, those who are doing it should be made to stop or get the fuck out.