NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/04/21/2548176.htm

The Australian Medical Association is hopeful it can persuade the Northern Territory Government to amend proposed legislation which would require doctors to report all child sexual activity.

The AMA's Territory president described the Care and Protection of Children Act as unworkable as it makes it illegal not to report teenagers under 16 years of age who are sexually active.

You don't report two 15-year-olds having sex to child services?

You're a criminal.

Even if you're their doctor. Who has seen them in confidence.

I can't find any one very coherent source, but this is the gist of the legislation which has been around for a while but is now being enforced (at least for health professionals).

Certainly the Northern Territory is riddled with child sex problems but I really don't think that excuses this. Scarcely have I seen a more blatant example of kneejerk 'THINK OF THE CHILDREN' laws which have a minimal basis in reality.

What does NSG think?

What does NSG think?

I think kids will now become even more hesitant to go to the doctor with those funny looking spots on their naughty bits, or that belly that keeps growing.

Stupid idea.

What does NSG think?

I think it's fucking ridiculous.

Stupid stupid idea. Kids have sex and there is not anything adults can do about it, better to inform them about safe sex and STDs.

What will the government do with all the reports? Tell the kids they have been naughty?

Actually, they'd probably charge both parties involved for sex crimes "for their own protection."

It just shows how much puritannism is still lodged in the collective rectum of the Western world.

It just shows how much puritannism is still lodged in the collective rectum of the Western world.

How is this about puritanism?

How is this about puritanism?

The notion that teenagers are incapable of being physically and mentally capable of handling sexuality, and that even consenting teenagers having sex should be lumped in with old men molesting single-digit minors when it comes to crime and punishment?

It just shows how much puritannism is still lodged in the collective rectum of the Western world.

Australia are South-East, not Western, but I know what you mean.

If the kids are already having sex, you're getting to them too late to stop them. You might as well do what you can to help.

I can't even imagine how the lawmakers think this will reduce underage sex. Are they going to lock up the reported 15 year olds? That's the only way you'll stop them having sex - criminalising the adults isn't going to do anything.

This was a reactive effort to try to deal with the situation in many Aboriginal communities, not just in the Territory, but it seems to be more extreme there.

The overall situation there is basically one of near total cultural disintegration. That's bad for everyone, but the effects on the children's lives is nothing short of horrifying. Rates of sexual and physical abuse of children by adults are off the charts, and many of those abused children go on to have sex way before they're ready for the responsibility of a family, the girls get pregnant, and the whole cycle starts all over again.

This law was not well thought out, and should be amended, but the situation isn't as simple as "teens are always gong to have sex."

On the one hand, 15 years old is a bit young to be having sex. On the other hand, a law that is either unenforceable or causes more problems than it solves vis a vis enforcement isn't optimal either.

Of course, the whole problem is made moot by the fact that Australia is way the hell on the other side of the world and anything done there is unlikely to impinge on me in any noticeable way, so I'm free to concentrate on more important things, like what keeps stealing critters out of my traps.

Wow, this is stupid. Now kids will stop going to doctors, and not only will they continue to have sex, they won't have a clue what they're doing.

thats fucked up

This was a reactive effort to try to deal with the situation in many Aboriginal communities, not just in the Territory, but it seems to be more extreme there.

The overall situation there is basically one of near total cultural disintegration. That's bad for everyone, but the effects on the children's lives is nothing short of horrifying. Rates of sexual and physical abuse of children by adults are off the charts, and many of those abused children go on to have sex way before they're ready for the responsibility of a family, the girls get pregnant, and the whole cycle starts all over again.

This law was not well thought out, and should be amended, but the situation isn't as simple as "teens are always gong to have sex."

You make a valid point, the sexual abuse which is rampant in these communities is shocking, and encourages a culture of ill-preparedness for the sexual endeavours the people in these communities undertake. That being said, doctor/patient privilege is one of the most fundamental basics of contemporary western society. To force doctors to breach that trust is abhorrent, and will only encourage the continued mistrust of western medicine in these communities and lead to detrimental effects on the general health and wellbeing of the individuals who will be the targets of this law.

Plus, it's not just for these remote communities or even for those communities with a predisposition towards sexual violence. When I was 15 I was having safe, consensual sex and my doctor sure as hell knew about it, it was one of the standard questions asked. I would have been most displeased to find myself arrested for that.

So while it's not as clear cut as "15 year olds will always have sex", even the fundamental idea behind this law is made of fail.

What a great idea! Lets introduce a little more stupid into our lives and ruin what little hope we have for the future!

That legislation is a crock of shit. More 'save the children' laws that will do nothing but have the exact opposite affect; I forsee more teenagers having children, catching STDs, and being punished by the state for it.

We should have mandatory reporting of all sex.

We should have mandatory reporting of all sex.

And demand a license to do it, with a practical exam that you know how to do it.

And demand a license to do it, with a practical exam that you know how to do it.

wow mean you really have to learn about sex in sex ed

What a great idea! Lets introduce a little more stupid into our lives and ruin what little hope we have for the future!

That legislation is a crock of shit. More 'save the children' laws that will do nothing but have the exact opposite affect; I forsee more teenagers having children, catching STDs, and being punished by the state for it.

I for see more children in indigenous communities who are being sexually abused because the people who run these communities don't want to be caught and will ensure that these children aren't seen by doctors and thus won't be treated.

Not only should sex reporting be mandatory, it should be rated on a scale of 1 to 10. As a public service.

wow mean you really have to learn about sex in sex ed

When I was in Year 8 I would not have minded having a practical exam to pass sex ed. :p

When I was in Year 8 I would not have minded having a practical exam to pass sex ed. :p

same

When I was in Year 8 I would not have minded having a practical exam to pass sex ed. :p

Don't that depend on who you would have to do the practical exam with? :eek2::$

Don't that depend on who you would have to do the practical exam with? :eek2::$

lol true, I would have picked my sex-ed teacher best 21 year old she was something else.

Isn't Australia also the place planning to impose a China-style Great Firewall on its citizenry to Protect The Children, despite basically everyone from the ISPs down to human rights organizations telling them that it's a Bad Idea? This sounds like more of the same, on the face of it.

If the root problem that's sparked this rather mindless piece of legislation is child rape among Aboriginal communities, this thing is surely not going to be effective in targeting that (though I'd be interested in peoples' thoughts as to what kind of legislation might be effective).

Isn't Australia also the place planning to impose a China-style Great Firewall on its citizenry to Protect The Children, despite basically everyone from the ISPs down to human rights organizations telling them that it's a Bad Idea? This sounds like more of the same, on the face of it.

If the root problem that's sparked this rather mindless piece of legislation is child rape among Aboriginal communities, this thing is surely not going to be effective in targeting that (though I'd be interested in peoples' thoughts as to what kind of legislation might be effective).

It is indeed the country that wants to do that.

This is a different government imposing these laws but it is the same party.

Hmm they seem to have ignored the whole doctor patient confidentiality thing.

This. Is. Insane.

It will only lead to kids not telling anyone, leading to higher rates of STDs.

What does NSG think?
Australia has fantasies of being a fascist state.

Australia has fantasies of being a state.
Fixed. They only want to be important for once!:p

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/04/21/2548176.htm



You don't report two 15-year-olds having sex to child services?

You're a criminal.

Even if you're their doctor. Who has seen them in confidence.

I can't find any one very coherent source, but this is the gist of the legislation which has been around for a while but is now being enforced (at least for health professionals).

Certainly the Northern Territory is riddled with child sex problems but I really don't think that excuses this. Scarcely have I seen a more blatant example of kneejerk 'THINK OF THE CHILDREN' laws which have a minimal basis in reality.

What does NSG think?

Funny thing is, of all places, Nebraska (my home state and a very conservative state) is actually making it legal for teenagers to "sext" each other provided they're not distributing the images to many people.

Whodathunkit?

I'm gonna come out in favor of mandatory reporting. If you think 15 year olds are fine to have sex, then lower the age of consent. If an 8 year old comes into your office with an STD I think it should be mandatory that you have to call child services.

I'm gonna come out in favor of mandatory reporting. If you think 15 year olds are fine to have sex, then lower the age of consent. If an 8 year old comes into your office with an STD I think it should be mandatory that you have to call child services.

the whole law has to be changed. Say the age of consent was lowered to 15 or so, and then a 14 year old walks into a doctors office. It's not child 'protection' agencies getting involved here, it's the criminal court. If the child is 'found out', they're not going to be protected or helped. Maybe mandatory reporting so an agency could tell them what's what and educate them would be a cool idea. Hey, you're having sex now, this is what you need to know to make sure you don't end up in a lot of danger. That's not what happens.

They're going to be charged. As a criminal. And placed on a sex offenders register. This is NOT ethical.

They're going to be charged. As a criminal. And placed on a sex offenders register. This is NOT ethical.Actually, in the context of the Northern Territory's child abuse, (pre-)teen pregnancy and incest rates, chances are, it'll be the parents that end up on the sex offender's registry.

We are talking about the state with the highest alcohol consumption in Australia, epic unemployment rates, and other such things. The proposal didn't exactly come out of the blue. There's a reason for it, and this reason is not to criminalise the children.

It's been mentioned before. Context matters.

There's a reason for it, and this reason is not to criminalise the children.
That's a funny way of achieving such a goal.

That's a funny way of achieving such a goal.

Yeah, I mean, I'm socially conservative, but forcing 15 year olds to report their latest roll in the hay is completely inane. It would do nothing but harm.

when ever i worry about the US being to far behind i look at the las aus land passes. then i feel safe.

Actually, in the context of the Northern Territory's child abuse, (pre-)teen pregnancy and incest rates, chances are, it'll be the parents that end up on the sex offender's registry.

We are talking about the state with the highest alcohol consumption in Australia, epic unemployment rates, and other such things. The proposal didn't exactly come out of the blue. There's a reason for it, and this reason is not to criminalise the children.

It's been mentioned before. Context matters.

Small nitpick: The Northern Territory isn't a State. It's a self-governing territory. Small but important difference.

Australia are South-East, not Western, but I know what you mean.

They are a Western society regardless of their geographical location.

They are a Western society regardless of their geographical location.

On a forum full of pedantic shitheads like this, I thought I'd get away with that statement. Clearly not. :p Damn Mafia.

On a forum full of pedantic shitheads like this, I thought I'd get away with that statement. Clearly not. :p Damn Mafia.

:p.

Why can't Australia just be nice :(

Why can't Australia just be nice :(Sandy countries aren't supposed to be.

Isn't Australia also the place planning to impose a China-style Great Firewall on its citizenry to Protect The Children, despite basically everyone from the ISPs down to human rights organizations telling them that it's a Bad Idea? This sounds like more of the same, on the face of it.

If the root problem that's sparked this rather mindless piece of legislation is child rape among Aboriginal communities, this thing is surely not going to be effective in targeting that (though I'd be interested in peoples' thoughts as to what kind of legislation might be effective).

Its Conservatives trying to conserve 1890. They wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so backward.

Its Conservatives trying to conserve 1890. They wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so backward.

So when should they be trying to conserve? The 1970s? That's right, you picture Howard in bell bottoms and a shirt open to the navel. It Could Be Worse. :D

Think Of The Children is all very well - even I was a Child once, although it is not an experience I would like to repeat - but is it too much to ask that laws be passed with a modicum of intelligence behind them?

Don't go completely ragging on Australia here... I mean, we've done and are doing some pretty stupid stuff, but we're not ALL totally backward.

The problem with this law is that it is well meaning, but completely counter-productive. The POINT of this law is to Save the Children, but it will likely have the opposite impact. In remote indiginous communities, there is already serious mistrust of contemporary western health officials, especially about matters relating to sex. This law will only encourage young aboriginal people to NOT report the shit going on, even if they are being molested, because getting the police involved is not something they like having done. There are already a significant number of mechanisms for children to report any abuse they may be recieving, through child services, the police, community elders, and anything in between. If they havn't reported the abuse they are recieving to those areas, they won't tell it to the doctors either unless they know the doctor can't tell anyone. So even the whole 'if we catch ONE sex predator it will be worth it' thing is likely to be bollocks.

Then there's all the issues of consensual sex and everything else already raised before. This law is poorly, poorly thought out.

Yeah, this is worse than when they tried to prosecute those High Schoolers over here for taking pictures of eachother...

total retardedness...

So when should they be trying to conserve? The 1970s? That's right, you picture Howard in bell bottoms and a shirt open to the navel. It Could Be Worse. :D

Think Of The Children is all very well - even I was a Child once, although it is not an experience I would like to repeat - but is it too much to ask that laws be passed with a modicum of intelligence behind them?

I think the only thing conservatives should be trying to conserve is the way things are, technically they aren't conservative if they want to make radical (and often stupid) changes that set us back by decades.

And for the answer to your second question: Fuck No, why would you ever ask for intelligent reasoning from a government?

Australia has fantasies of being a fascist state.

Well considering this is the Northern Territory that is passing these laws wanting to be a state is not far from the truth.

Its Conservatives trying to conserve 1890. They wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so backward.

Never heard anyone call the ALP conservatives before.

Never heard anyone call the ALP conservatives before.

Most Fascist tend toward being conservative. Of course I'm not that familiar with Australian Political parties so perhaps you could enlighten me?

Most Fascist tend toward being conservative. Of course I'm not that familiar with Australian Political parties so perhaps you could enlighten me?

The Australian Labour Party are the party in power in the Northern Territory, most of the other states, and federally. They have historically been the unionist party, the political left of Australia. But they have increasingly been heading more conservative, especially on social issues. There, they are finding more and more common ground with the traditionally conservative Liberal/National coalition.

And Blouman, K-Rudd described himself as an economic conservative, so I suppose that comes close enough to somebody calling the ALP conservative,

I have always viewed the ALP as fairly centrist, with the opposition being moderate to far right. I wish the Greens would get their act together, I want a real leftist choice :(

Most Fascist tend toward being conservative. Of course I'm not that familiar with Australian Political parties so perhaps you could enlighten me?

The ALP is traditionally the major left wing party in Australia. It is nowadays moved over to the right with the rise of the Labor right. The Right wing faction of the ALP is however much more socially conservative then when the ALP used to be which was much more socialist.

Now me personally I would prefer the Labor right in charge than the left wing of the party, however, there are still many of their policies I disagree over.

I suppose you could say that the ALP is slightly conservative, I might just mention that to a few of my Young labor friends that will get the blood boiling. :tongue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Labor_Party

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Right

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Left_(Australia)

Ah, what better way to trigger an epidemic of STDs, abortions and teenage pregnancies...

The Australian Labour Party are the party in power in the Northern Territory, most of the other states, and federally. They have historically been the unionist party, the political left of Australia. But they have increasingly been heading more conservative, especially on social issues. There, they are finding more and more common ground with the traditionally conservative Liberal/National coalition.

Indeed with the rise of the Labor right faction which is much more conservative on social issues.

And Blouman, K-Rudd described himself as an economic conservative, so I suppose that comes close enough to somebody calling the ALP conservative.

True, I did jump the gun, however, it will be something to say to some of my mates next time they jump on the Republican party for being conservatives. :)

And Krudd only said that in the election campaign because he wanted to show the voters how good he was at managing an economy. Polls still showed that the Libs was the party who people trusted the most to manage the economy, Krudd needed to show that he and the ALP were similar to the Libs in that regard. I wouldn't exactly call some of his past fiscal policies acting like an economic conservative.

I have always viewed the ALP as fairly centrist, with the opposition being moderate to far right. I wish the Greens would get their act together, I want a real leftist choice :(

The Greens are very left wing, however, maybe if the Fergurson group got more power you might have a real option.

Ah, what better way to trigger an epidemic of STDs, abortions and teenage pregnancies...

There already is an epidemic of STD's in the NT.

I think we all need to keep in mind that this says mandatory reporting of underaged sex. Not that all who engage in underaged sex will be locked in jail or charged criminally.

There already is an epidemic of STD's in the NT.

So it will get even worse. Genius plan.

I think we all need to keep in mind that this says mandatory reporting of underaged sex. Not that all who engage in underaged sex will be locked in jail or charged criminally.

Yeah, but why would you need to report two minors having consensual sex?

Its still entirely stupid...

Yeah, but why would you need to report two minors having consensual sex?

Its still entirely stupid...

Well it was explained earlier that often people who have been sexually abused will engage in sex at an early age. SO if you find out who is having sex at a young age you can investigate if any of their family members are abusers. This is a way of uncovering unreported abuse.

I'm not saying that they are going about it in a good way. I am saying that this is not stupid in the way you might think.

The ALP is traditionally the major left wing party in Australia. It is nowadays moved over to the right with the rise of the Labor right. The Right wing faction of the ALP is however much more socially conservative then when the ALP used to be which was much more socialist.

Now me personally I would prefer the Labor right in charge than the left wing of the party, however, there are still many of their policies I disagree over.

I suppose you could say that the ALP is slightly conservative, I might just mention that to a few of my Young labor friends that will get the blood boiling. :tongue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Labor_Party

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Right

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Left_(Australia)

So I'm technically right? Its conservatives from a usually liberal party?

Well it was explained earlier that often people who have been sexually abused will engage in sex at an early age. SO if you find out who is having sex at a young age you can investigate if any of their family members are abusers. This is a way of uncovering unreported abuse.

I'm not saying that they are going about it in a good way. I am saying that this is not stupid in the way you might think.

Its just not practical, you cant go around doing background checks of every 15 year old with a Girlfriend/boyfriend...

So I'm technically right? Its conservatives from a usually liberal party?

Well not really liberal either more Socialism was more their style. Maybe liberal in an American sense to an extent not really in an Australian sense.

But yes you are right they do have conservative policies.

The NT is experiencing an apparent crisis in child sexual abuse. This is a stupid attempt to find the perpetrators of these crimes. As stupid as the intervention was in reducing alcoholism and substance abuse in the same communities.