NationStates Jolt Archive

Imagine the Erection Day was actually not a mere waste of your time -
- but you could receive money for selling your vote.
Whether it's Senate, Presidential, or other elections, your choice; whatever is the most important for you.

No faking, your vote will be checked. Also, it's assumed your vote has a chance to be decisive, i.e. you're not in a state/province/etc that always votes the same way.

So, what is the minimum sum you'd change your vote for?

Poll coming, but answer in the thread as well. Especially if it's tied to something other than your income for you - maybe a specific sum that looks round enough to kill your moral qualities, for instance.

My vote is not for sale. Sorry.

Or I would accept and vote but would record the entire thing so the vote-buyer would be prosecuted.

Imagine the Erection Day was actually not a mere waste of your time -
- but you could receive money for selling your vote.
Whether it's Senate, Presidential, or other elections, your choice; whatever is the most important for you.

No faking, your vote will be checked. Also, it's assumed your vote has a chance to be decisive, i.e. you're not in a state/province/etc that always votes the same way.

So, what is the minimum sum you'd change your vote for?

Poll coming, but answer in the thread as well. Especially if it's tied to something other than your income for you - maybe a specific sum that looks round enough to kill your moral qualities, for instance.

depends on who I'm voting for?

anything less than Presidential? 2 million USD... at least.

Presidential?

Not paying Federal Taxes... ever.

if they want my vote that badly... then they can meet my price.

Imagine the Erection Day was actually not a mere waste of your time -
.

How can erection day be a waste of time? :)

How can erection day be a waste of time? :)
It can, when you have no parties to join and no vices to jump on.


Or I would accept and vote but would record the entire thing so the vote-buyer would be prosecuted.
Ah, yes. One important clarification. You wouldn't be the sole bastard who sold the vote. Imagine this kind of thing was widespread, and they didn't even bother to prosecute it. Or it was even almost legal to sell it, like the votes in Senate.

I'd sell it to the guy who wanted me to vote for the person I was already going to vote for. Might as well make some money voting for the person I like.

Ah, yes. One important clarification. You wouldn't be the sole bastard who sold the vote. Imagine this kind of thing was widespread, and they didn't even bother to prosecute it. Or it was even almost legal to sell it, like the votes in Senate.
I don't even need to imagine, that is happening here every three years. :mad:

Enough....

Ethical issues aside, I wouldn't make that trade simply because I wouldn't trust anyone offering such a deal to actually pay me.

Eh a quarter of my yearly income. Not like it really matters, since you don't pick the party lists if you're not in the party to start with.

Imagine the Erection Day was actually not a mere waste of your time -
- but you could receive money for selling your vote.
Whether it's Senate, Presidential, or other elections, your choice; whatever is the most important for you.

This is a hideous idea. Enough people sell their votes, and power would be based on wealth, business would be unregulated, good by health care, worker's rights, workplace safety, minimum wage, or environmental protection. Hell, why not have an inheretted aristocracy while we're at it?

No faking, your vote will be checked. Also, it's assumed your vote has a chance to be decisive, i.e. you're not in a state/province/etc that always votes the same way.

No secret ballot? Hello voter intimidation.

So, what is the minimum sum you'd change your vote for?

No sum is enough, for the above reasons.

Poll coming, but answer in the thread as well. Especially if it's tied to something other than your income for you - maybe a specific sum that looks round enough to kill your moral qualities, for instance.

No amount of money would normally be enough. Maybe if I needed the money to save someone's life or something.

This is a hideous idea. Enough people sell their votes, and power would be based on wealth, business would be unregulated, good by health care, worker's rights, workplace safety, minimum wage, or environmental protection. Hell, why not have an inheretted aristocracy while we're at it?
Find me a 'democratic' country where this isn't the case. Unless you live in Switzerland, you don't get referenda on that kind of shit, and if you are in Switzerland then you're under the thumb of the rich, just as you are in every country in the whole wide world.

I would only sell my vote if:
a) The sum offered was astronomical
b) I was in serious financial need
c) I judged that my vote was unlikely to make a difference (for example, if it's 2012, Obama's approval rating is at 60%, and the GOP has nominated Sarah Palin)

Imagine the Erection Day was actually not a mere waste of your time -
- but you could receive money for selling your vote.
Whether it's Senate, Presidential, or other elections, your choice; whatever is the most important for you.

.

People recieve money for their votes all the time. Let's look at the class of people that work for the government. If a politician ran on a plan to cut the government in half, the opposing candidate says status quo. Who do you think that government worker is going to vote for? Same goes with people recieiving benefits from the government. Same scenario and would produce the same results. People vote in their financial interest if it is laid out to them in that manner.

why would I sell my vote for my annual income... hell no. if they want something as important as my vote, they have to pay me millions.

This is a hideous idea. Enough people sell their votes,
Like the Senators do, it's called lobbying.

and power would be based on wealth,
It isn't already?

business would be unregulated,
It wouldn't. Rather, the big business, that can easily comply, would use the regulations and red tape to suppress the small enterprises from competing. Like it does now.

good by health care,
Welcome to US. Healthcare is all commercial.

worker's rights, workplace safety, minimum wage, or environmental protection.
Rights/safety only really work in Unions, minimum wage is often violated (illegals), and US isn't even in the Kyoto Protocol.


Hell, why not have an inheretted aristocracy while we're at it?
Most people in the Senate or close to the presidency already come from either very wealthy or extremely wealthy families.


No secret ballot? Hello voter intimidation.
Come on, like if your vote was worth intimidating you over.
You'd probably just have to pin a small camera on your suit to prove you kept your side of the deal.

I didnt see the choice $20 in poll.

I didnt see the choice $20 in poll.
"Daily income". Even though it's more like hourly income, the question is about the approximate order of magnitude.


why would I sell my vote for my annual income... hell no. if they want something as important as my vote, they have to pay me millions.
As the old joke goes:
"Would you prostitute yourself for a billion dollars?"
"Of course I would!"
"Now we know who you are, all that's left is to agree on the price..."


People recieve money for their votes all the time. Let's look at the class of people that work for the government. If a politician ran on a plan to cut the government in half, the opposing candidate says status quo. Who do you think that government worker is going to vote for? Same goes with people recieiving benefits from the government. Same scenario and would produce the same results. People vote in their financial interest if it is laid out to them in that manner.
Yes. That's exactly the point. People tend to vote for the candidate that's better for their specific needs. And it's not like democracy isn't supposed to work like this.

The question, then, is whether one is honest enough to admit it, and how much does he/she consider a worthy sum to sell his small fraction of the decision for. Or, how many illusions does he have about the profits he reaps from making a "moral" decision.

USian, really? Really?

I would sell my vote, but not for anything not 5x larger than my yearly salary.

Like the Senators do, it's called lobbying.

Their are restrictions. And no need to make this sort of thing easier.

It isn't already?

Not entirely? And would you rather people accept corruption, or fight it?

It wouldn't. Rather, the big business, that can easily comply, would use the regulations and red tape to suppress the small enterprises from competing. Like it does now.

Ok, a few business would be unregulated, and the others would cease to exist or succeed. Which would likely be even worse, since consumers would have fewer alternatives, making even boycotting impractical. In short, no checks on a few companies doing whatever the fuck they want, not even competition from other companies.

Welcome to US. Healthcare is all commercial.

I live in Canada.

Rights/safety only really work in Unions, minimum wage is often violated (illegals), and US isn't even in the Kyoto Protocol.

1. Kyoto is not the sole form of environmental regulation.

2. Rights/safety laws exist elsewhere, and I'm betting Union power would shrink if vote buying became a decisive factor in elections.

3. These are problems to be dealt with, not exacerbated.

Most people in the Senate or close to the presidency already come from either very wealthy or extremely wealthy families.

Not our President.

Besides, you cannot use the existence of a problem in the system to justify making that problem worse.

Come on, like if your vote was worth intimidating you over.
You'd probably just have to pin a small camera on your suit to prove you kept your side of the deal.

If anyone knows your vote, that information could leak out. Keeping information secure in the age of the internet?

Why not? Business owns the government anyway, at least make it open. Give me a fiver and my vote is yours.

As the old joke goes:
"Would you prostitute yourself for a billion dollars?"
"Of course I would!"
"Now we know who you are, all that's left is to agree on the price..."


except for me, any haggling and the price only goes UP! ;)

Having grown up in a state where my vote has always been meaningless, and the person voted in simply becomes another sleazy part of a hopelessly corrupt state government regardless of what party they came from, I've generally become quite cynical about politics. In nearly every election, there's never a RIGHT vote, simply a vote that is slightly less bad.

Because of that, I DON'T actually vote. I know full well that it would basically be a waste of 15-20 minutes out of my day, accomplishing nothing of substance or value. As long as our choice is between two politicians, the choice is pointless, because the wrong man for the job is always going to win. And don't give me any crap about third party candidates, because that IS throwing your vote away in the current political scene, whether people want to believe it or not.

I'd almost certainly accept bribes to vote, if I thought I could get away with it, because then there'd actually be SOME value to the political process for once. Probably anything over two weeks salary would be enough to motivate me.

Hell, if some party was willing to pay me to pretend to be dead people and vote multiple times in multiple districts, I'd probably do that too, though it would cost more.

I didnt see the choice $20 in poll.
And I don't see the option for "$1 and a sandwich."
Although, that would only be my opening offer. I could be haggled down to "A clean Kleenex and a crescent roll with some ketchup in it."

A thousand bucks and a carton of American Spirits.

A thousand bucks and a Box of Cuban Cigars.

there ya go, dont want to make it too easy on em, lol...

More than the pole offers.

Accept the money, and then vote for whoever I wanted to.

I would sell it for free. A vote has no worth and doesn't point the most capable man or woman.

there ya go, dont want to make it too easy on em, lol...

Cohiba FTW. One of the few things I like about Castro is his cigar preference.

I would sell my vote for as much as i could get for it.
I would do this by soliciting bids from both parties involved, then try to get a little more out of them.

I live in Alabama, 3rd Congressional district, therefore my vote DOES NOT matter, and I am ineligible.

But it would take a year's salary for an election that I truly cared about. Quarterly, maybe bi-monthly for an off-year election

Accept the money, and then vote for whoever I wanted to.

That's how kneecaps get broken. You like your kneecaps, don't you?

I guess depending on the election I'd sell my vote for a bowl of jello topped with some cool whip. If it's one where I'd most likely not see the result of (local elections, etc...) then yea, give me my green jello!

So, what is the minimum sum you'd change your vote for?

Poll coming, but answer in the thread as well. Especially if it's tied to something other than your income for you - maybe a specific sum that looks round enough to kill your moral qualities, for instance.
I'm for the days when you could sell your vote for lunch and a couple beers.

I'm for the days when you could sell your vote for lunch and a couple beers.

I think those were the JP Morgan Days

I don't have one yet, but when I do I sure as hell wouldn't sell it.

Well, from a business perspective, i primarily vote for my leaders based on their tax policies. If someone is willing to pay me more then the added costs of their tax plans on me then it would be a reasonable course of action. (With the caveat that the guy im voting for isnt a criminal or supporting overthrow of the whole system etc.)

I don't even need to imagine, that is happening here every three years. :mad:

At least your politicians are more open about it.

As for the OP: I have no vote to sell. I do not believe in voting. No amount of money could convince me to do something that immoral.

off the top of my head about £40 will do

And I don't see the option for "$1 and a sandwich."
Although, that would only be my opening offer. I could be haggled down to "A clean Kleenex and a crescent roll with some ketchup in it."

I'd totally support any party that gives people sandwiches

If the person votes the same way as I do, 50 cents
If the person votes for any right wing party/candidate, $99999999999999999999

At least your politicians are more open about it.
They're not "open" in the sense that they will unabashedly admit it when accused (of course every politician will deny it), but yeah, it's an open secret that vote-buying happens here. Garapalan ang bilihan ng boto dito, I would usually say. Politicians vying for local positions buy votes more often than those vying for national positions. Local politicians can sway elections easier because the electorate is smaller. (Every election time, a voter can get as much as a thousand pesos ($20) if there are many vote-buyers. [Last election the candidates for town mayor and vice-mayor gave an aggregate of P600 ($12) to each voter in our house... and we have five voters registered here.] Needless to say, most of the people at our house voted for the candidate who did not attempt to buy their vote. :wink:

National politicians, on the other hand, cannot just simply buy votes. A country with 90 million people has a very big electorate. So they resort to organized cheating, paying a select few big bucks to cheat for them. One practice we call "dagdag-bawas" (literally "add-subract") which entails adding a few votes (just adding 1 before a number could increase your vote tally ex. 110 votes can become 1,110 votes) for the candidate and subtracting a few against the opposition. Do it in only a few precincts, you can get elected mayor. Do it in a few municipalities, you can get elected governor. Do it in a few provinces, you can be the president, or a senator.

Oh, and we also have "flying voters" (fictional voters who all vote for a certain candidate), selective purging of voter's lists, dead people voting, election violence, ballot box stuffing, and many other techniques of cheating in elections. The system is so rotten that you guys should be thankful to have election systems that are more honest and more reflective of the will of the people. If you are disaffected with politics, then go and change it, write to your leaders or vote them out. At least you can vote them out... we can't. :(*

EDIT: (*Usually. Though there are shining instances where all of the cheats have been overcome by the sheer will of the people.)

I would simply sell it to the highest bidder.

I think those were the JP Morgan Days
Ahh, the good old days of capitalism... 'Course when you realize what people are trading their votes for now, it makes you even more nostalgic for the days when you vote was worth something tangible.

Considering how little my individual vote is actually worth, I'd sell it for very little money.

No amount of money would be enough. Consider the following. V10 specified no upper limits, and he says that the corruption is so endemic, it might as well be legal. That means once every election cycle, huge sums of money gets pumped into the economy. Money that didn't come into being through value generation. Does the Wiemar republic ring any bells? I could ask for a trillion dollars, maybe even get paid that sum, and probably afford only a toothpick with that total amount.

So no, no amount of money would be worth it.

So, what is the minimum sum you'd change your vote for?.

It depends on how much the person who's asking has to offer... ;)

No amount of money would be enough. Consider the following. V10 specified no upper limits, and he says that the corruption is so endemic, it might as well be legal.
Well - the upper limit is your yearly income. No one is ever going to offer you any more than that, for the kickback will never be worth that, and no one but very few fanatic individuals is going to refuse such a generous offer in exchange for ticking a different box.


That means once every election cycle, huge sums of money gets pumped into the economy.
Huge?
You misunderstand me. It's not a question of how much you want for your vote. Face it, your vote is a bulk good. Even if you have megalomania, it's still only worth as much as the one of the welfare leech or burger flipper over there, and only worth anything at all if the total count is sufficient. No one is going to bid an auction for your vote.

Rather, it's a question, at what offer would you seriously consider actually selling your vote, keeping in mind the buyer is not an idiot and will verify if you've voted properly - he certainly has his people in the system.

It depends on how much the person who's asking has to offer... ;)
Flat price. Take it or leave it. Like when you're selling Euros for Dollars, you don't haggle with the clerk.

Just like all Euros, all votes are equal - their value doesn't change from you being stiff. And each of them, including your specific one, is worthless on its own.

Well - the upper limit is your yearly income. No one is ever going to offer you any more than that, for the kickback will never be worth that, and no one but very few fanatic individuals is going to refuse such a generous offer in exchange for ticking a different box.

Huge?
You misunderstand me. It's not a question of how much you want for your vote. Face it, your vote is a bulk good. Even if you have megalomania, it's still only worth as much as the one of the welfare leech or burger flipper over there, and only worth anything at all if the total count is sufficient. No one is going to bid an auction for your vote.

Rather, it's a question, at what offer would you seriously consider actually selling your vote, keeping in mind the buyer is not an idiot and will verify if you've voted properly - he certainly has his people in the system.

Precisely. This means that under even balanced conditions where 50% of the vote is bought, that means you have a huge sum of money that's suddenly flooding the economy. Not just from one person, but how many millions. That's a lot of cash supply but nothing of value actually created to match the increase in money supply. If it was a handful of people, that'd be one thing, but since vote buying is endemic, it won't be limited to a few suddenly rich.

You'd have a lot of suddenly rich people but not enough goods to go around to match their windfall. Money would quickly lose value as demand for goods outstrips supply of money.

Flat price. Take it or leave it. Like when you're selling Euros for Dollars, you don't haggle with the clerk.

Just like all Euros, all votes are equal - their value doesn't change from you being stiff. And each of them, including your specific one, is worthless on its own.

"Worthless", which is why someone is offering me cash for it...

The money-for-money analogy is inaccurate...votes buy power, which is a currency unlike any other.

If a person wants to buy my vote, they'll have to meet my price, or they are wasting both my time and theirs.

Well - the upper limit is your yearly income. No one is ever going to offer you any more than that, for the kickback will never be worth that, and no one but very few fanatic individuals is going to refuse such a generous offer in exchange for ticking a different box.
You assume that I have a yearly income! Well, you have been foiled again in your devious schemes, because that sandwich I asked for is worth more than I earned in all of 2008 (not really).

Precisely. This means that under even balanced conditions where 50% of the vote is bought,
Whoa! If you're going to buy 50%, it will be easier to buy out everyone involved in counting the votes.

You don't need to buy 50% to win, because you already have most of that. Kerry lost by 2%. Gore actually just got unlucky with district distribution.
So you need to find the districts that are already on the edge, and just nudge them a bit your way. That's 2% or 3% of the votes.

And you don't go to a Rep/Dem party convention and buy their most stuck-up supporters to vote the other way. No, you find the poor struggling to feed a family on minimum wage, the community college students who need money to buy booze, the lowlifes who didn't plan to vote anyway, and people who just don't care much either way. For any of these, $1,000 is more than a lucrative sum.
That's $6 to $10 billion spent swinging the election. A lot of money, but not something to break the monetary system.



That's a lot of cash supply but nothing of value actually created to match the increase in money supply.
This cash doesn't come out of nowhere. If you have a printing press, you already have the power.

The money comes from the entities that expect a good return on their investment. That solar venture company that donated to the Democratic campaign? Another half of their donation went into the right wallets, and a couple months after the election, they'll receive a huge contract to build an experimental solar farm. The cost will increase several times, the CEO will get tens of millions in bonuses, and the aunt of the senator who helped it all happen will just happen to be a major shareholder. In the end, there will be a lot of simulated activity and one "experimental" panel from the nearest store.

That oil company that donated to the Republican campaign? Or, mostly, to the Republicans. A year later, a war will break out, costing a trillion dollars, out of which 700 billion will be embezzled on various levels, and after the war, the company will have an exclusive right to "develop" oil production in the newly conquered country. And someone's brother just happens to be on the payroll.

"Worthless", which is why someone is offering me cash for it...
The money-for-money analogy is inaccurate...votes buy power, which is a currency unlike any other.
Power is an investment like any other. There are many reasons people want the presidential and congressional power, but most won't give you the money to run the campaign. The really important reason is the discretionary part of the budget, specifically the fraction of it that can be pork-barreled and embezzled, and more specifically the kickbacks from these projects.


If a person wants to buy my vote, they'll have to meet my price, or they are wasting both my time and theirs.
If a person wants to buy my Euros, they'll have to meet my price.
Well, either that or find another seller.

One or two vote-buyers, many votes. Guess whose market.

Not to mention how would one prove that one voted the way they were suppose to. Unless they do away with secret ballot. My vote is not for sale.

I'm not planning on voting in 2010 but I would sell my vote for about 2k.

Hey..look on the bright side. No more voter apathy! :p