NationStates Jolt Archive

(inspired by the footnote in the “Curiosity” thread OP)
“A cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.” A skeptic questions whether this is true.
Alright, I have some idea of the difference already, and am perfectly capable of Googling the dictionary definitions. Fair enough. What about the relationship between the concepts? Are cynicism and skepticism parallel ideas? Orthogonal? Skew? Do they represent a spectrum? Does skepticism lead inexorably to cynicism? What would you call someone who is both? A “skyntic”? What say you, oh dozens of denizens of NSG?

I am both skeptical and cynical, and while they are often related, I wouldn't say that one leads to the other exactly.

Also, I'm now officially a skyntic.

Depends on the issue, Im almost instinctively cynical about government, and most issues involving money...

but, Im just skeptical about most other things...

Skepticism is a quality that more people need to exhibit.

Cynic, in most things. Skeptical in most others.

I would say that skepticism is having a reasonable doubt, cynicism is being fairly certain.

are we talking about being properly doubtful of particular claims or "there is no way for me to know that there is an external world" skepticism?

are we talking about being properly doubtful of particular claims or "there is no way for me to know that there is an external world" skepticism?
So, you would be of the school that skepticism is a spectrum? Ranging from naively credulous to "no way to know"? How does it then relate to cynicism?

I don't think they're related at all, although I think I have both. Skepticism is critical inquiry, a need for proof and verification. Cynicism is believing in the the worst motivations of everything and everyone, with or without proof.

I'm neither cynical nor skeptical so your insidious plan is will never work! ;)

I don't think they're related at all, although I think I have both. Skepticism is critical inquiry, a need for proof and verification. Cynicism is believing in the the worst motivations of everything and everyone, with or without proof.
Okay, non-intersecting spectra . . . parallel, orthogonal, or skew?

I'm neither cynical nor skeptical so your insidious plan is will never work! ;)
LG, do you ever find yourself the victim of the "Robin Hood" paradox? Once you've disturbed the comfortable, must you then comfort them, only to disturb them once again, in a never-ending cycle? Or is there such a thing as disturbingly comfortable, or comfortably disturbed?

Okay, non-intersecting spectra . . . parallel, orthogonal, or skew?

I'm afraid you'll have to define those terms for me; I don't think I understand them the way you're using them.

LG, do you ever find yourself the victim of the "Robin Hood" paradox? Once you've disturbed the comfortable, must you then comfort them, only to disturb them once again, in a never-ending cycle? Or is there such a thing as disturbingly comfortable, or comfortably disturbed?

Yes. :)

So, you would be of the school that skepticism is a spectrum? Ranging from naively credulous to "no way to know"?

i don't know if it counts as a spectrum (apparently i'm a spectrum of skepticism skeptic). the problem really comes in with the fact that we call several things skepticism - there's the show-me-the-evidence skepticism of science, the refraining-from-making-truth-claims philosophical skepticism, and the lalalalalalalala-i-cannot-hear-you of the global warming denialists.

I'm afraid you'll have to define those terms for me; I don't think I understand them the way you're using them.

A spectrum (plural: spectra) is a linear representation of a scale between two extremes. Lines are geometric objects, and may be parallel, orthogonal, or skew. Does this help?

i don't know if it counts as a spectrum (apparently i'm a spectrum of skepticism skeptic). the problem really comes in with the fact that we call several things skepticism - there's the show-me-the-evidence skepticism of science, the refraining-from-making-truth-claims philosophical skepticism, and the lalalalalalalala-i-cannot-hear-you of the global warming denialists.
The first two, I think, could reasonalby be included in a linear representation, i.e. a spectrum. But is denial a form of skepticism? I've always considered it a form of absolutism, more akin to religious fundamentalism than scientific skepticism.

Yes. :)So, is that insidious, or nefarious?

Neither. I believe strongly in the benefit of the doubt.

I can be less than enthusiastic but I don't think I descend into cynicism. I frequently like to complain and I am good at it but that is because I am a malcontent. I have always been a malcontent, I come from a long line of malcontents. Some one has to pass the torch.

cynical
One entry found.

Main Entry:
cyn·i·cal Listen to the pronunciation of cynical
Pronunciation:
\ˈsi-ni-kəl\
Function:
adjective
Date:
1542

1: captious, peevish2: having or showing the attitude or temper of a cynic: as a: contemptuously distrustful of human nature and motives <those cynical men who say that democracy cannot be honest and efficient — F. D. Roosevelt> b: based on or reflecting a belief that human conduct is motivated primarily by self-interest <a cynical ploy to cheat customers>
— cyn·i·cal·ly Listen to the pronunciation of cynically \-k(ə-)lē\ adverb
synonyms cynical, misanthropic, pessimistic mean deeply distrustful. cynical implies having a sneering disbelief in sincerity or integrity <cynical about politicians' motives>. misanthropic suggests a rooted distrust and dislike of human beings and their society <a solitary and misanthropic artist>. pessimistic implies having a gloomy, distrustful view of life <pessimistic about the future>.

skepticism
One entry found.

Main Entry:
skep·ti·cism Listen to the pronunciation of skepticism
Pronunciation:
\ˈskep-tə-ˌsi-zəm\
Function:
noun
Date:
1646

1: an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity either in general or toward a particular object2 a: the doctrine that true knowledge or knowledge in a particular area is uncertain b: the method of suspended judgment, systematic doubt, or criticism characteristic of skeptics3: doubt concerning basic religious principles (as immortality, providence, and revelation)
synonyms see uncertainty

So, is that insidious, or nefarious?

Yep. :)

Yep. :)Can I elicit a reponse from you, other than, "yep"?

Can I elicit a reponse from you, other than, "yep"?

Yep.

I am a sceptic

Yep.
Thank you, thank you, we're here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress!

First off people are not all bad. Some will actually surprise you if you give them the chance. Things will not always end in ruin. Skeptics usually means it is not "suspended belief" as is in the definition but outright "disbelief".

I am a sceptic
But cynical about my spelling skills?

Thank you, thank you, we're here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress!

*whispers* Erm... CI? We're only here 'till Friday!

*whispers* Erm... CI? We're only here 'till Friday!
Yes, but, given that this is Saturday (perhaps Sunday, depending on your location) I do think it's legitimate to call it "all week."

First off people are not all bad. Some will actually surprise you if you give them the chance. Things will not always end in ruin. Skeptics usually means it is not "suspended belief" as is in the definition but outright "disbelief".
So for you, there is little difference between the cynic and the skeptic, beyond perhaps their honesty in self-identification?

Yes, but, given that this is Saturday (perhaps Sunday, depending on your location) I do think it's legitimate to call it "all week."
Oh crap! We've missed the bus!

I am a sceptic

i'm skeptical of sceptics. it always seems like they are just a slight misread away from septic, which gets especially worrisome when they start discussing the possibility that i'm just a brain in a tank somewhere.

A spectrum (plural: spectra) is a linear representation of a scale between two extremes. Lines are geometric objects, and may be parallel, orthogonal, or skew. Does this help?

Maybe I was unclear. I understand parallel, orthagonal and skew as geometric concepts, I'm not sure how you're relating them to mapping concepts. (Yes, spectra I get). But I'll take a stab here, and you can correct my assumptions as necessary.


Parallel:Meaning the skeptical and cynical spectrums are independent of eachother; one can feasibly occupy any point on one or both spectra?

Orthagonal: The spectra are perpendicular, meaning as one moves along one spectrum, they are less likely to possess a strong point on the other?

Skew: Neither parallel nor intersecting.......:confused: I got nothing.

Under this (rather sloppy) framework, I would say skepticism and cynicism are parallel ideas. Cynics can be absolutely skeptical or not, and vice versa.

benefit of the doubt
A favorable judgment granted in the absence of full evidence.

The first two, I think, could reasonalby be included in a linear representation, i.e. a spectrum. But is denial a form of skepticism? I've always considered it a form of absolutism, more akin to religious fundamentalism than scientific skepticism.

they call themselves and are identified in the media as 'skeptics'. wrongly, i think, but the language is what it is.

but yeah, you could plausibly argue that skepticism (legitimately used), differs by degrees rather than by kind. though the radical global skeptic would presumably disagree.

i'm skeptical of sceptics. it always seems like they are just a slight misread away from septic, which gets especially worrisome when they start discussing the possibility that i'm just a brain in a tank somewhere.
Tee hee. Philosophy jokes ftw.

(Q: Why did the anarchist only drink green tea?

A: Because proper tea is theft.)


My metaethics lecturer was educated in the US, so his notes, and subsequently mine, are shot through with skeptic/sceptic and other Americanisms.

Maybe I was unclear. I understand parallel, orthagonal and skew as geometric concepts, I'm not sure how you're relating them to mapping concepts. (Yes, spectra I get). But I'll take a stab here, and you can correct my assumptions as necessary.


Parallel:Meaning the skeptical and cynical spectrums are independent of eachother; one can feasibly occupy any point on one or both spectra?

Orthagonal: The spectra are perpendicular, meaning as one moves along one spectrum, they are less likely to possess a strong point on the other?

Skew: Neither parallel nor intersecting.......:confused: I got nothing.

Under this (rather sloppy) framework, I would say skepticism and cynicism are parallel ideas. Cynics can be absolutely skeptical or not, and vice versa.
Thanks for going with it! I didn't really have a particular imagery in mind, just wondered what someone else might think. This is a good starting point!

So for you, there is little difference between the cynic and the skeptic, beyond perhaps their honesty in self-identification?

To me a cynic is always disappointed and the race is already lost. What is the point of trying. You know the type. It because the "Man" is looking for way to stick to me every chance he gets. It is always someone else fault that they never got ahead.

I am not sure there is a direct connection. Skeptics claim to just be unbelievers.


I am true believer.

To me a cynic is always disappointed and the race is already lost. What is the point of trying. You know the type. It because the "Man" is looking for way to stick to me every chance he gets. It is always someone else fault that they never got ahead.

I am not sure there is a direct connection. Skeptics claim to just be unbelievers.


I am true believer.Ah, interesting. For me, the whole point of cynicism is, by always expecting the worse, never being disapointed, and often pleasantly surprised, with the caveat that if I'm pleasantly surprised, I'm probably missing something . . .

Ah, interesting. For me, the whole point of cynicism is, by always expecting the worse, never being disappointed, and often pleasantly surprised, with the caveat that if I'm pleasantly surprised, I'm probably missing something . . .

Yes but it a fore gone conclusion. It not just your ordinary pessimism.


Pessimist think things are going to end badly

Cynics know it is going to end badly, so why bother?

I think both a depressing to be around.

But cynical about my spelling skills?

No, the k spelling is closer to the Greek - I just wasn't taught to spell it like that. I try to avoid being cynical, but I am turning into something of a curmudgeon as I get older.

Can I elicit a reponse from you, other than, "yep"?

Absolutely. :)

Yes but it a fore gone conclusion. It not just your ordinary pessimism.


Pessimist think things are going to end badly

Cynics know it is going to end badly, so why bother?

I think both a depressing to be around.

Does the truth bother you?:p

What differentiates a skeptic from an ordinary non believer? Why are skeptic special? Not being one I don't know....

To me a cynic is always disappointed and the race is already lost. What is the point of trying. You know the type. It because the "Man" is looking for way to stick to me every chance he gets. It is always someone else fault that they never got ahead.




I'd call that defeatism, not cynicsm. A cynic distrusts good intentions, believing baser motives dominate action and thought. But "nice guys finish last" =/= "can't win, don't try".

Does the truth bother you?:p

There are many ways to look at things. If you expect to be disappointed you usually will be. I prefer to see where things go on there own without any preconceived notions. Life is a journey not a destination.

I'd call that defeatism, not cynicsm. A cynic distrusts good intentions, believing baser motives dominate action and thought. But "nice guys finish last" =/= "can't win, don't try".

Right no such thing are a free lunch.

People don't give to charity unless they want to be seen a philanthropist.

No good deed goes unpunished


There are ton of them.

There are many ways to look at things. If you expect to be disappointed you usually will be. I prefer to see where things go on there own without any preconceived notions. Life is a journey not a destination.
I always expect to be disappointed. Therefore, I rarely am.

I always expect to be disappointed. Therefore, I rarely am.


It is like it is linked with defeatism or a defeatist attitude. Case in point right here.

Thank you, you are an awesome subject.

It like linked with defeatism or a defeatist attitude. Case in point right here.

Thank you, you are an awesome subject.
Defeatism? I don't give up, I merely don't expect to do well. And then, when I do, I'm pleasantly surprised.

Right no such thing are a free lunch.

People don't give to charity unless they want to be seen a philanthropist.

No good deed goes unpunished


There are ton of them.

Right....but none of those necessarily translate as "What is the point of trying", much less "It is always someone else fault that they never got ahead." They are more likely to mean "the world is a hostile place, keep up your guard."

Well, I think philosophically speaking, a cynic still makes a value judgement in some way, about inherent negativity. Whereas a skeptic would probably find such quantifying meaningless, again if speaking philosophically.

Right....but none of those necessarily translate as "What is the point of trying", much less "It is always someone else fault that they never got ahead." They are more likely to mean "the world is a hostile place, keep up your guard."



It like pessimism to the extreme. Maybe I am just remembering the qualities of all the cynics I remember. How about this " the world is an okay place. How about only putting your guard up when you think you might be hit? Why be on the defensive when you don't have to?

Well, I think philosophically speaking, a cynic still makes a value judgment in some way, about inherent negativity. Whereas a skeptic would probably find such quantifying meaningless, again if speaking philosophically.

I would agree with this very strongly.

It like pessimism to the extreme. Maybe I am just remembering the qualities of all the cynics I remember. How about this " the world is an okay place. How about only putting your guard up when you think you might be hit? Why be on the defensive when you don't have to?

Well, the topic at hand is the nature, not the value, of cynicism. All I'm saying is that cynicism is not defeatism.

Which is kind of strange because what we call "cynics" today is nothing like their Greek counterparts in philosophy. I would say the cynics of philosophy are kind of minimalists. They believe in living a simple life. Nothing at all is wrong with that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynics

# The goal of life is happiness which is to live in agreement with Nature.
# Happiness depends on being self-sufficient, and a master of mental attitude.
# Self-sufficiency is achieved by living a life of Virtue.
# The road to virtue is to free oneself from any influence such as wealth, fame, or power, which have no value in Nature.
# Suffering is caused by false judgments of value, which cause negative emotions and a vicious character


It seems to have sort Buddhist qualities.

Skeptics claim to just be unbelievers.No, skeptics just demand a standard of evidence.

What differentiates a skeptic from an ordinary non believer? Why are skeptic special? Not being one I don't know....

I guess it depends on your definition of "non believer." I think a skeptic isn't neccessarily a non believer, they just need to be convinced.

Cynics and skeptics are both people with minds that suffer from demonic corruption.

i'm skeptical of sceptics. it always seems like they are just a slight misread away from septic, which gets especially worrisome when they start discussing the possibility that i'm just a brain in a tank somewhere.

:)

Tee hee. Philosophy jokes ftw.

(Q: Why did the anarchist only drink green tea?

A: Because proper tea is theft.)

Hehe

(<pedantry>Green tea is proper tea. Might work better with herbal tea...</pedantry> We now return you to your regularly scheduled non-pedantic thread in progress...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynics

# The goal of life is happiness which is to live in agreement with Nature.
# Happiness depends on being self-sufficient, and a master of mental attitude.
# Self-sufficiency is achieved by living a life of Virtue.
# The road to virtue is to free oneself from any influence such as wealth, fame, or power, which have no value in Nature.
# Suffering is caused by false judgments of value, which cause negative emotions and a vicious character


It seems to have sort Buddhist qualities.

Indeed.

Not that there was intereaction between the Greeks and Indians. Skepticism as well was influanced by Indian thought.

Several philosophers, such as Pyrrho, Anaxarchus and Onesicritus, are said to have been selected by Alexander to accompany him in his eastern campaigns. During the 18 months they were in India, they were able to interact with Indian ascetics, generally described as Gymnosophists ("naked philosophers"). Pyrrho (360-270 BCE), returned to Greece and became the first Skeptic and the founder of the school named Pyrrhonism. The Greek biographer Diogenes Laertius explained that Pyrrho's equanimity and detachment from the world were acquired in India.[3] Few of his sayings are directly known, but they are clearly reminiscent of eastern, possibly Buddhist, thought:

"Nothing really exists, but human life is governed by convention"
"Nothing is in itself more this than that" (Diogenes Laertius IX.61)

Another of these philosophers, Onesicritus, a Cynic, is said by Strabo to have learnt in India the following precepts:

"That nothing that happens to a man is bad or good, opinions being merely dreams"
"That the best philosophy [is] that which liberates the mind from [both] pleasure and grief" (Strabo, XV.I.65[4])

These contacts initiated the first direct interactions between Greek and Indian philosophy, which were to continue and expand for several more centuries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism

Skepticism as well was influanced by Indian thought.
And more than just the Sceptics.

You can easily make a comparison between Aristotle's concept of Nature and his idea of the virtues with The Buddha's concept of Dharma and the virtues he possesses.

That is awesome I never really noticed that before. See what happens when you get older this stuff starts to really interest you. I am hopeless.


I do like the Army of the Dog line!

"every city is filled with such upstarts, particularly with those who enter the names of Diogenes, Antisthenes, and Crates as their patrons and enlist in the Army of the Dog.

Yeah

:)
Hehe
(<pedantry>Green tea is proper tea. Might work better with herbal tea...</pedantry> We now return you to your regularly scheduled non-pedantic thread in progress...)
I was hoping it would be more pedantic . . . and you make a good point! Nothing wrong with improving a funny joke!